Two Alemanni samples

[Token]

Early Medieval Germanic tribes were genetically very closely related to each other, and closest to modern day North Dutch and Northwest Germans. Anglo-Saxons, Baiuvarii, Allemanis, Longobards; all of the Germanic tribes sampled so far form a single cluster in the extreme northwest of Europe's PCA; 'Germanic' was apparently not only a ethno-linguistic identity, but also a genetic entity.

https://s15.postimg.cc/3xotskjcp/Bez-nazwy-3.png

Grave 12c

K36
0.47% - Central_African
4.10% - Central_Euro
5.45% - East_Balkan
10.07% - East_Central_Euro
0.01% - East_Med
1.86% - Eastern_Euro
10.33% - Fennoscandian
11.15% - French
3.59% - Iberian
8.31% - Italian
15.48% - North_Atlantic
27.77% - North_Sea
1.19% - South_Central_Asian
0.21% - Volga-Ural

Closest matches:

NL_Friesland Niedersachsen NL_Gelderland Schleswig-Holstein
0.9879438 0.9943723 1.0883336 1.1617240
Denmark NL_Drenthe NL_Groningen SV_Skane
1.2104180 1.2189758 1.2485339 1.2822867

Grave 6

K36
Basque - 2.53%
Central_Euro - 5.29%
East_Central_Euro - 9.84%
Eastern_Euro - 4.98%
Fennoscandian - 10.79%
French - 2.58%
Iberian - 14.19%
Italian - 1.80%
North_Atlantic - 15.28%
North_Caucasian - 2.19%
North_Sea - 26.87%
South_Central_Asian - 3.67%

Closest matches:

SV_Skane Nordrhein-Westfalen Wales NL_Friesland
1.106186 1.127517 1.143572 1.163157
Niedersachsen Orkney NL_Utrecht NE_England
1.180862 1.182047 1.187163 1.203508

[Aren]

Gaets too? Where?
So far only medieval West Germanic tribes have been tested and they all plot as you say it close to Northern Germans/Dutch but also very close to Scandinavians.
One Viking era woman was tested from central Sweden and she ended up identical to modern day South Swedes so I presume the North Germanic tribes to be slightly less Southern than the Langobard, Bavarian and Alemanni samples.

[Token]

Gaets too? Where?
So far only medieval West Germanic tribes have been tested and they all plot as you say it close to Northern Germans/Dutch but also very close to Scandinavians.
One Viking era woman was tested from central Sweden and she ended up identical to modern day South Swedes so I presume the North Germanic tribes to be slightly less Southern than the Langobard, Bavarian and Alemanni samples.
Thanks for the correction, i was referring to the sample you cited, sleep deprivation does wonders to your brain. Apparently, the genetic borders in early Medieval Europe were much sharper than today.

[Aren]

Thanks for the correction, i was referring to the sample you cited, sleep deprivation does wonders to your brain. Apparently, the genetic borders in early Medieval Europe were much sharper than today.

The interesting thing though here is what the other non-Germanic part of modern day Southern German ancestry is. As you can see with Lukaz plot Swiss Germans and Germans from Baden-Wurrtemburg are not shifted towards France or Britain relative to the high coverage Grave 12c sample but more rather towards Italy. Were the Celts of central Europe that different from Gauls or Britons?

[J. Ketch]

The interesting thing though here is what the other non-Germanic part of modern day Southern German ancestry is. As you can see with Lukaz plot Swiss Germans and Germans from Baden-Wurrtemburg are not shifted towards France or Britain relative to the high coverage Grave 12c sample but more rather towards Italy. Were the Celts of central Europe that different from Gauls or Britons?
Probably quite different to Britons at least, but there was also considerable Roman colonisation in Southern Germany.

[JQP4545]

Do you have the Gedmatch kit numbers?

[Aren]

Probably quite different to Britons at least, but there was also considerable Roman colonisation in Southern Germany.
Yeah I strongly believe Celts were not as uniform as the Germanics or Slavs auDNA speaking. The Britons and probably Gauls aswell just shifted to Celtic probably with not much mixing.
Though I don't think we can draw any meaningfull conclusions just from the K36 PCA.

[Lucas]

Yeah I strongly believe Celts were not as uniform as the Germanics or Slavs auDNA speaking. The Britons and probably Gauls aswell just shifted to Celtic probably with not much mixing.
Though I don't think we can draw any meaningfull conclusions just from the K36 PCA.


For fun I divided to half and added genomes of Alemanni grave 12 i "Roman" grave 3c.

Results are pretty cool. So we can easily treat West and SW Germans as mix of Allemani and Italian like pops:)




Rheinland-Pfalz Swiss_German Baden-Württemberg Hessen Saarland Cimbri_Lessina
0.8504421 0.9365799 0.9756008 0.9879749 1.0368273 1.0878939

Walloons IT_Friuli
1.0989982 1.1141355


"distance%=0.6601"

Rheinland-Pfalz,40.2
Saarland,15.6
Hessen,7.6
IT_Trentino,7.4
IT_Friuli,4.8
FR_Corsica,2.4
IT_Marche,2.4
IT_Aosta,1.8
IT_Bolzano,1.8
NL_Friesland,1.8
IT_Tuscany,1.6
Niedersachsen,1.4
IT_Emilia-Romagna,1.2
Flemish,0.8
IT_Abruzzo,0.8
Walloons,0.8
NL_Drenthe,0.6
NL_Groningen,0.6



Original results
____________________________________

Allemani grave 12

Amerindian 0
Arabian 0
Armenian 0
Basque 0
Central_African 0
Central_Euro 4,1
East_African 0
East_Asian 0
East_Balkan 5,45
East_Central_Asian 0
East_Central_Euro 10,07
East_Med 0
Eastern_Euro 1,86
Fennoscandian 10,33
French 11,15
Iberian 3,59
Indo0Chinese 0
Italian 8,31
Malayan 0
Near_Eastern 0
North_African 0
North_Atlantic 15,48
North_Caucasian 0
North_Sea 27,77
Northeast_African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South_Asian 0
South_Central_Asian 1,19
South_Chinese 0
Volga0Ural 0,21
West_African 0
West_Caucasian 0
West_Med 0

his nMonte

distance%=0.9614"

NL_Friesland,55.2
Niedersachsen,35
Oberland(western_Ost_Preussen),4.8
NL_Gelderland,4.4
NL_Drenthe,0.4
Schleswig-Holstein,0.2

__________________________________________________ _______________________________



"Roman/ Italian" grave 3c

https://s8.postimg.cc/vdxu180cz/Screen_Hunter_2474_Aug._15_09.02.jpg

"distance%=1.2655"

IT_Liguria,46.2
IT_Lazio,34.6
Asturias,3.8
IT_Sardinia,2.6
FR_Corsica,2.4
Islas_Baleares,2.4
IT_Emilia-Romagna,2
Cantabria,1.2
IT_Tuscany,1.2
La_Rioja,1
Druzes,0.6
Spanish_Gitano,0.6
Cataluna,0.4
Albanians_FYROM,0.2
Castilla,0.2
IT_Marche,0.2

[J. Ketch]

For fun I divided to half and added genomes of Alemanni grave 12 i "Roman" grave 3c.

Results are pretty cool. So we can easily treat West and SW Germans as mix of Allemani and Italian like pops:)

What percentages of Roman/Italian like blood are you thinking those populations might have received?

[Token]

The interesting thing though here is what the other non-Germanic part of modern day Southern German ancestry is. As you can see with Lukaz plot Swiss Germans and Germans from Baden-Wurrtemburg are not shifted towards France or Britain relative to the high coverage Grave 12c sample but more rather towards Italy. Were the Celts of central Europe that different from Gauls or Britons?
It isn't so far-fetched to assume Celts from Switzerland and Southern Germany would cluster close to modern day Northern Italians or even more southern shifted than that.

[Aren]

For fun I divided to half and added genomes of Alemanni grave 12 i "Roman" grave 3c.

Results are pretty cool. So we can easily treat West and SW Germans as mix of Allemani and Italian like pops:)




Rheinland-Pfalz Swiss_German Baden-Württemberg Hessen Saarland Cimbri_Lessina
0.8504421 0.9365799 0.9756008 0.9879749 1.0368273 1.0878939

Walloons IT_Friuli
1.0989982 1.1141355


"distance%=0.6601"

Rheinland-Pfalz,40.2
Saarland,15.6
Hessen,7.6
IT_Trentino,7.4
IT_Friuli,4.8
FR_Corsica,2.4
IT_Marche,2.4
IT_Aosta,1.8
IT_Bolzano,1.8
NL_Friesland,1.8
IT_Tuscany,1.6
Niedersachsen,1.4
IT_Emilia-Romagna,1.2
Flemish,0.8
IT_Abruzzo,0.8
Walloons,0.8
NL_Drenthe,0.6
NL_Groningen,0.6



Original results
____________________________________

Allemani grave 12

Amerindian 0
Arabian 0
Armenian 0
Basque 0
Central_African 0
Central_Euro 4,1
East_African 0
East_Asian 0
East_Balkan 5,45
East_Central_Asian 0
East_Central_Euro 10,07
East_Med 0
Eastern_Euro 1,86
Fennoscandian 10,33
French 11,15
Iberian 3,59
Indo0Chinese 0
Italian 8,31
Malayan 0
Near_Eastern 0
North_African 0
North_Atlantic 15,48
North_Caucasian 0
North_Sea 27,77
Northeast_African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South_Asian 0
South_Central_Asian 1,19
South_Chinese 0
Volga0Ural 0,21
West_African 0
West_Caucasian 0
West_Med 0

his nMonte

distance%=0.9614"

NL_Friesland,55.2
Niedersachsen,35
Oberland(western_Ost_Preussen),4.8
NL_Gelderland,4.4
NL_Drenthe,0.4
Schleswig-Holstein,0.2

__________________________________________________ _______________________________



"Roman/ Italian" grave 3c

https://s8.postimg.cc/vdxu180cz/Screen_Hunter_2474_Aug._15_09.02.jpg

"distance%=1.2655"

IT_Liguria,46.2
IT_Lazio,34.6
Asturias,3.8
IT_Sardinia,2.6
FR_Corsica,2.4
Islas_Baleares,2.4
IT_Emilia-Romagna,2
Cantabria,1.2
IT_Tuscany,1.2
La_Rioja,1
Druzes,0.6
Spanish_Gitano,0.6
Cataluna,0.4
Albanians_FYROM,0.2
Castilla,0.2
IT_Marche,0.2

Interesting results. If David adds regional German averages on his Global 25 spreadsheet then maybe we can explore it further.
How many SNP:s used for the Roman sample?

I'm surprised Europeans aren't more interested in medieval and Roman era aDNA. Instead everyone circle-jerks to the PIE homeland. We have aDNA from every corner of Siberia, from any historical period yet barely any ancient samples from France or Italy.

[Lucas]

Interesting results. If David adds regional German averages on his Global 25 spreadsheet then maybe we can explore it further.
How many SNP:s used for the Roman sample?

I'm surprised Europeans aren't more interested in medieval and Roman era aDNA. Instead everyone circle-jerks to the PIE homeland. We have aDNA from every corner of Siberia, from any historical period yet barely any ancient samples from France or Italy.

Yes it is ironic, that we obtained two Roman aDNA (first from Baiuvarii paper, if you don't know) only because someone examined Volkerwanderung Germanics who ruined their empire:)

[Aren]

It isn't so far-fetched to assume Celts from Switzerland and Southern Germany would cluster close to modern day Northern Italians or even more southern shifted than that.
Maybe gradually became more Southern shifted due to contact with Minoan/Anatolian_BA-like migrants from Italy? Because the early Hallstatt Celts where very different from modern day North Italians.
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 54.26
2 West_Med 23.98
3 Baltic 17.97
4 East_Med 3.77
5 Red_Sea 0.02

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_English 10.13
2 Southeast_English 11.5
3 West_Scottish 12.79
4 Orcadian 12.9
5 French 13.29
6 Irish 13.35
7 South_Dutch 13.4
8 Southwest_French 13.43
9 Spanish_Cantabria 14.57
10 Spanish_Cataluna 15.13
11 French_Basque 15.13
12 North_Dutch 15.21
13 West_German 15.23
14 Spanish_Aragon 15.5
15 Danish 15.78
16 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 16
17 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 16.59
18 Norwegian 16.91
19 Spanish_Valencia 17.07
20 Spanish_Galicia 17.09

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.9% French_Basque + 47.1% Norwegian @ 3.69

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 48.88
2 SW_Europe 46.68
3 West_Asia 3.07
4 SW_Asia 1.37

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Belgian 10.45
2 French 10.77
3 Orcadian 11.53
4 English 11.62
5 German_South 11.67
6 Utahn_European 11.86
7 Irish 11.96
8 Scottish 11.99
9 French_Basque 13.59
10 Norwegian 15
11 German_North 15.37
12 Hungarian 15.5
13 Spaniard 15.55
14 Croatian 16.05
15 Swedish 16.33
16 Slovene 16.44
17 Slovak 17.44
18 Bosnian 18.78
19 Ukrainian 18.98
20 Serbian 19.9

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.8% French_Basque + 31.2% Lithuanian @ 3.71
2 67.6% French_Basque + 32.4% Estonian @ 3.8
3 69.6% French_Basque + 30.4% Latvian @ 3.85
4 55% French_Basque + 45% Swedish @ 4.18
5 66.2% French_Basque + 33.8% Polish @ 4.58
6 52.8% French_Basque + 47.2% Norwegian @ 4.67
7 75.5% French_Basque + 24.5% Finnish @ 5.2
8 62.7% French_Basque + 37.3% Belarusian @ 5.22
9 68.4% French_Basque + 31.6% Russian @ 5.54
10 54.4% Utahn_European + 45.6% French_Basque @ 6.04
11 54.2% Irish + 45.8% French_Basque @ 6.2
12 55.5% Orcadian + 44.5% French_Basque @ 6.29
13 53.8% French_Basque + 46.2% German_North @ 6.35
14 68.7% French_Basque + 31.3% Mordovian @ 6.42
15 60% French_Basque + 40% Ukrainian @ 6.67
16 54.3% Scottish + 45.7% French_Basque @ 6.71
17 55.6% English + 44.4% French_Basque @ 6.98
18 61.1% Belgian + 38.9% French_Basque @ 7.63
19 56.6% German_South + 43.4% French_Basque @ 8.2
20 58.7% French_Basque + 41.3% Slovak @ 8.25

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Yes it is ironic, that we obtained two Roman aDNA (first from Baiuvarii paper, if you don't know) only because someone examined Volkerwanderung Germanics who ruined their empire:)

From which paper does the Italian grave 3c sample come from? SNPs coverage? GEDmatch kit?

[Lucas]

BTW it is interesting that Roman descendant from grave 3c is nearly identical to modern north Italians.

Second BTW

Sample form Grave 9

While the oldest grave (grave 9), in which a (late) mature man was buried, reveals in terms of its equipment clear relations with the Frankish Empire

so we can assum we have Frankish genome also:)

https://s8.postimg.cc/bp2ilw3s3/Screen_Hunter_2480_Aug._15_13.29.jpg

K36 nMonte



NL_Friesland NL_Groningen Niedersachsen Iceland Denmark SV_Skane Scotland NL_Overijssel
1.188232 1.221867 1.257315 1.308430 1.365185 1.376146 1.396979 1.406607



"distance%=1.1555"

NL_Friesland,62.4
NL_Groningen,21
Scotland,11
Ireland,3
Niedersachsen,2.4
Iceland,0.2

[Lucas]

From which paper does the Italian grave 3c sample come from? SNPs coverage? GEDmatch kit?

"Ancient genome wide analyses infer kinship structure in an Early Medieval Alemannic graveyard"

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB26982

I didn't convert them (only I made nMonte later), but guy from other forum. He didn't post Gedmatch kits.

[Aren]

Lukasz could you possible post other calculators aswell? Like Eurogenes K13 and K15. K36 is good and all, but it has too many K, might cause some weird shifts.

[Lucas]

Lukasz could you possible post other calculators aswell? Like Eurogenes K13 and K15. K36 is good and all, but it has too many K, might cause some weird shifts.

"Italian" grave 3c

Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 4-Ancestors Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 24.28
2 West_Med 23.43
3 East_Med 17.85
4 North_Sea 16.03
5 West_Asian 7.09
6 Eastern_Euro 5.86
7 Baltic 3.27
8 Sub-Saharan 2.18

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_Italian @ 6.569232
2 Tuscan @ 9.826101
3 Spanish_Andalucia @ 11.349411
4 Spanish_Extremadura @ 11.638035
5 Spanish_Murcia @ 11.744783

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Spanish_Cantabria +50% West_Sicilian @ 6.279172

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% North_Italian +25% Spanish_Cantabria +25% West_Sicilian @ 6.121916

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 French_Basque + Lebanese_Druze + Orcadian + Sardinian @ 5.162794



"Frankish" grave 9

Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 4-Ancestors Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 44.69
2 Atlantic 29.56
3 Baltic 13.94
4 Eastern_Euro 6.04
5 West_Med 3.91
6 Sub-Saharan 1.07

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 West_Norwegian @ 8.387472
2 Orcadian @ 9.232078
3 North_Dutch @ 9.729820
4 West_Scottish @ 9.816356
5 Norwegian @ 10.263895

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Orcadian +50% West_Norwegian @ 7.986833

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% West_Norwegian +25% West_Norwegian +25% West_Scottish @ 7.939432

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Irish + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 7.917970

[J. Ketch]

I always thought the Franks would be autosomally similar to South Dutch/West Germans, not Scandinavians. Pretty interesting if they were almost pure Nords.

[Token]

"Italian" grave 3c

Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 4-Ancestors Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 24.28
2 West_Med 23.43
3 East_Med 17.85
4 North_Sea 16.03
5 West_Asian 7.09
6 Eastern_Euro 5.86
7 Baltic 3.27
8 Sub-Saharan 2.18

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_Italian @ 6.569232
2 Tuscan @ 9.826101
3 Spanish_Andalucia @ 11.349411
4 Spanish_Extremadura @ 11.638035
5 Spanish_Murcia @ 11.744783

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Spanish_Cantabria +50% West_Sicilian @ 6.279172

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% North_Italian +25% Spanish_Cantabria +25% West_Sicilian @ 6.121916

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 French_Basque + Lebanese_Druze + Orcadian + Sardinian @ 5.162794



"Frankish" grave 9

Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 4-Ancestors Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 44.69
2 Atlantic 29.56
3 Baltic 13.94
4 Eastern_Euro 6.04
5 West_Med 3.91
6 Sub-Saharan 1.07

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 West_Norwegian @ 8.387472
2 Orcadian @ 9.232078
3 North_Dutch @ 9.729820
4 West_Scottish @ 9.816356
5 Norwegian @ 10.263895

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Orcadian +50% West_Norwegian @ 7.986833

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% West_Norwegian +25% West_Norwegian +25% West_Scottish @ 7.939432

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Irish + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 7.917970

I'm in doubt about labelling Grave 3c as Roman. He could have been a Celt, or a Gallo-Roman from northern Italy, apparently the graves show clear Lombard Italy introgression.

[Lucas]

I'm in doubt about labelling Grave 3c as Roman. He could have been a Celt, or a Gallo-Roman from northern Italy, apparently the graves show clear Lombard Italy introgression.

You really think local Celt was like modern North Italian with 18% East-Med? I doubt it.

[Token]

You really think local Celt was like modern North Italian with 18% East-Med? I doubt it.

We are able to model SW Germans as early Germanic + something like North Italians, so why not? Do you think Romans settled en masse in Germany? I don't think so.
Also, i don't see how Romans would be more similar to North Italians, when they barely settled there. The area was inhabited by Celts since the Bronze Age. Romans should be closer to Central Italians.

[Freeroostah]

Completely different results from the Ostrogoth, Gepid, and Bavarian samples that cluster with SE Europe

[Peterski]

and Bavarian samples that cluster with SE Europe

Most of Bajuwarii have very Nordic results, only some - including women with artificially deformed skulls - cluster with SE Europe.

Ostrogothic sample from Crimea was obviously a culturally Germanized Greek. Gepid sample was Nordic mixed with Mongoloid.

[Freeroostah]

Most of Bajuwarii have very Nordic results, only some - including women with artificially deformed skulls - cluster with SE Europe.

Ostrogothic sample from Crimea was obviously a culturally Germanized Greek. Gepid sample was Nordic mixed with Mongoloid.

So pretty much they were Balkan and the Gepid was Hunnic

[Vid Flumina]

We are able to model SW Germans as early Germanic + something like North Italians, so why not? Do you think Romans settled en masse in Germany? I don't think so.
Also, i don't see how Romans would be more similar to North Italians, when they barely settled there. The area was inhabited by Celts since the Bronze Age. Romans should be closer to Central Italians.

Then why does Bronze Age sample from Southern Germany RISE471 plot with the French?

https://i.imgur.com/I6Hc15J.png

[Aren]

Then why does Bronze Age sample from Southern Germany RISE471 plot with the French?

https://i.imgur.com/I6Hc15J.png

One of the Hallstatt samples who got uploaded to Gedmatch plots also with (Western-Central)French. But the other one who hasn't gotten uploaded on Gedmatch is close to Brits in Davids Global 25 PCA. So it's a bit messy but it seems so far Celts were not homogeneous at all.
I don't think Romans are responsible for this pull in modern day Southern Germans, in that case one can question why North Italians are far closer to Tuscans than to Frenchmen, despite both being supposedly of Gallic Celtic stock. Is it due to Roman settlements aswell?

Btw the Medieval Germanics + Hallstatt Celt in Eurogenes K15 PCA
https://i.imgur.com/dvlVwdC.png

[Lucas]

One of the Hallstatt samples who got uploaded to Gedmatch plots also with (Western-Central)French. But the other one who hasn't gotten uploaded on Gedmatch is close to Brits in Davids Global 25 PCA. So it's a bit messy but it seems so far Celts were not homogeneous at all.
I don't think Romans are responsible for this pull in modern day Southern Germans, in that case one can question why North Italians are far closer to Tuscans than to Frenchmen, despite both being supposedly of Gallic Celtic stock. Is it due to Roman settlements aswell?
]

For me if somebody has results like North Italian he must be form the same stock. I speculate pre-Roman south German Celtic populations were more northern shifted than 3c.

[Oneeye]

Not surprised that Germanic samples from the migration period show a strong relationship with the Germanic Urheimat.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/Pre-roman_iron_age_%28map%29.PNG/240px-Pre-roman_iron_age_%28map%29.PNG

[Vid Flumina]

One of the Hallstatt samples who got uploaded to Gedmatch plots also with (Western-Central)French. But the other one who hasn't gotten uploaded on Gedmatch is close to Brits in Davids Global 25 PCA. So it's a bit messy but it seems so far Celts were not homogeneous at all.
I don't think Romans are responsible for this pull in modern day Southern Germans, in that case one can question why North Italians are far closer to Tuscans than to Frenchmen, despite both being supposedly of Gallic Celtic stock. Is it due to Roman settlements aswell?

Btw the Medieval Germanics + Hallstatt Celt in Eurogenes K15 PCA
https://i.imgur.com/dvlVwdC.png


North Italians are mostly Gallicized Ligurians, Raetians and ancient Venetic.

Only Aosta Valley might have been truly Gaulish.

What are Halstatt Celt K15 results?

[Gründig]

Edit

[Aren]

North Italians are mostly Gallicized Ligurians, Raetians and ancient Venetic.

Only Aosta Valley might have been truly Gaulish.

What are Halstatt Celt K15 results?
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 54.26
2 West_Med 23.98
3 Baltic 17.97
4 East_Med 3.77
5 Red_Sea 0.02

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_English 10.13
2 Southeast_English 11.5
3 West_Scottish 12.79
4 Orcadian 12.9
5 French 13.29
6 Irish 13.35
7 South_Dutch 13.4
8 Southwest_French 13.43
9 Spanish_Cantabria 14.57
10 Spanish_Cataluna 15.13
11 French_Basque 15.13
12 North_Dutch 15.21
13 West_German 15.23
14 Spanish_Aragon 15.5
15 Danish 15.78
16 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 16
17 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 16.59
18 Norwegian 16.91
19 Spanish_Valencia 17.07
20 Spanish_Galicia 17.09

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.9% French_Basque + 47.1% Norwegian @ 3.69

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 43.76
2 North_Sea 26.72
3 West_Med 17.36
4 Baltic 12.12
5 Red_Sea 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 French_Basque 13.2
2 Southwest_French 14.75
3 Spanish_Aragon 15.79
4 Spanish_Cantabria 15.93
5 Spanish_Cataluna 16.84
6 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 16.92
7 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 17.16
8 Spanish_Valencia 17.28
9 Southwest_English 17.52
10 Southeast_English 18.02
11 French 18.14
12 South_Dutch 18.35
13 Irish 18.42
14 Spanish_Murcia 18.59
15 West_Scottish 19.28
16 Spanish_Andalucia 19.41
17 Spanish_Extremadura 19.55
18 Portuguese 19.66
19 Spanish_Galicia 20.07
20 North_German 20.6

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.9% French_Basque + 39.1% Irish @ 7.61

84141 SNPs

[Vid Flumina]

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 54.26
2 West_Med 23.98
3 Baltic 17.97
4 East_Med 3.77
5 Red_Sea 0.02

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_English 10.13
2 Southeast_English 11.5
3 West_Scottish 12.79
4 Orcadian 12.9
5 French 13.29
6 Irish 13.35
7 South_Dutch 13.4
8 Southwest_French 13.43
9 Spanish_Cantabria 14.57
10 Spanish_Cataluna 15.13
11 French_Basque 15.13
12 North_Dutch 15.21
13 West_German 15.23
14 Spanish_Aragon 15.5
15 Danish 15.78
16 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 16
17 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 16.59
18 Norwegian 16.91
19 Spanish_Valencia 17.07
20 Spanish_Galicia 17.09

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.9% French_Basque + 47.1% Norwegian @ 3.69

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 43.76
2 North_Sea 26.72
3 West_Med 17.36
4 Baltic 12.12
5 Red_Sea 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 French_Basque 13.2
2 Southwest_French 14.75
3 Spanish_Aragon 15.79
4 Spanish_Cantabria 15.93
5 Spanish_Cataluna 16.84
6 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 16.92
7 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 17.16
8 Spanish_Valencia 17.28
9 Southwest_English 17.52
10 Southeast_English 18.02
11 French 18.14
12 South_Dutch 18.35
13 Irish 18.42
14 Spanish_Murcia 18.59
15 West_Scottish 19.28
16 Spanish_Andalucia 19.41
17 Spanish_Extremadura 19.55
18 Portuguese 19.66
19 Spanish_Galicia 20.07
20 North_German 20.6

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.9% French_Basque + 39.1% Irish @ 7.61

84141 SNPs


Very western, almost at the edge of the plot (https://i.imgur.com/msa97xW.png).

If representative there's no way Southern Germans are a mix of Germanics and Central Euro Celts..

[Aren]

Very western, almost at the edge of the plot (https://i.imgur.com/msa97xW.png).

If representative there's no way Southern Germans are a mix of Germanics and Central Euro Celts..

Gedmatch especially with these modern based calculators isn't the best to figure out what ancient samples were like.

nMonte shows them somewhat similar to modern day Frenchmen but more Anatolian and WHG shifted and slightly less Steppe

"distance%=3.3391"

Hallstatt_Bylany: DA111

Beaker_The_Netherlands,54.6
Globular_Amphora,38.4
Anatolia_BA,7

"distance%=1.3216"

French_East

Beaker_The_Netherlands,64.6
Baden_LCA,21.8
Anatolia_BA,7.2
Globular_Amphora,6.4

Globular Amphora and Baden are late Copper Age/Early Bronze age farmer cultures in central Europe.

[Lucas]

Gedmatch especially with these modern based calculators isn't the best to figure out what ancient samples were like.

nMonte shows them somewhat similar to modern day Frenchmen but more Anatolian and WHG shifted and slightly less Steppe

"distance%=3.3391"

Hallstatt_Bylany: DA111

Beaker_The_Netherlands,54.6
Globular_Amphora,38.4
Anatolia_BA,7

"distance%=1.3216"

French_East

Beaker_The_Netherlands,64.6
Baden_LCA,21.8
Anatolia_BA,7.2
Globular_Amphora,6.4

Globular Amphora and Baden are late Copper Age/Early Bronze age farmer cultures in central Europe.


First of all at the end of Roman rule, no one should expect pure Celts in southern Germany. They were more or less latinized, also genetically. I'm sure anybody was like this Hallstatt sample, but if they were like modern North Italians? Ok we need more samples to decide...

[Lucas]

I think those German medieval band is good example how people buried in Alemanni graves looked like:) We have Nords and Italian-like phenotypes...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOvsyamoEDg

[Token]

Then why does Bronze Age sample from Southern Germany RISE471 plot with the French?

https://i.imgur.com/I6Hc15J.png
What is your point? There is a long way from the Bronze Age to the early Medieval period. Don't let yourself be confused by the excessive focus that scholars give to the Bronze Age.

[Token]

North Italians are mostly Gallicized Ligurians, Raetians and ancient Venetic.

Only Aosta Valley might have been truly Gaulish.

What are Halstatt Celt K15 results?
I doubt it, North Italy was one of the Celtic cores since Urnfield.

[Lauχum]

Are you kidding me? The dude blocked out the kit of Grave 3c because it "didn't belong to him". Its a fucking ancient sample!!! What a ball buster.

[Lauχum]

I'm surprised Europeans aren't more interested in medieval and Roman era aDNA. Instead everyone circle-jerks to the PIE homeland. We have aDNA from every corner of Siberia, from any historical period yet barely any ancient samples from France or Italy.

This so much. Its ridiculous how little attention is given to the Med.

[J. Ketch]

Apparently the French don't allow any testing of ancient/medieval samples. Also there's less mystery about Medieval and Iron Age populations than Bronze Age and prehistoric ones.

[Lauχum]

Apparently the French don't allow any testing of ancient/medieval samples. Also there's less mystery about Medieval and Iron Age populations than Bronze Age and prehistoric ones.

Yep, the Germans are also rather harsh on DNA testing. So much for being beacons of innovation and scientific progress...