Germanic tribes

[Gründig]

Very interested in learning more about them:

Who were they?

What were their names?

Where were they located?

What religion did they follow?

Which tribes do we have DNA samples of today?

What populations today share DNA with them?


Post all reputable sources here, as well as maps, pictures, etc.

[Teutonski]

Well they were pretty diverse, hard for me to generalize about them

I personally only made some research about the Vandals since the sack of rome was a pretty interesting topic to me

Want me to specify on them?

[Gründig]

Well they were pretty diverse, hard for me to generalize about them

I personally only made some research about the Vandals since the sack of rome was a pretty interesting topic to me

Want me to specify on them?

Yea definitely.

[Profileid]

Germania is a classic.
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus1.html

[Peterski]

Where were they located?

This below is a map of tribes which either lived or could iive (location of some tribes is uncertain and speculative) on the territory of Poland in Roman times. Bear in my mind that ethnicity of most of these tribes is disupted, so it is not certain which of them were Germanic:

It is often assumed that the area achaeologically defined as Przeworsk Culture, was politically united, and part of the Lugian Federation (which was mentioned in Roman sources). The Lugian Federation was probably multi-ethnic but it had Germanic presence as well:

https://i.imgur.com/86sT5R1.png

^^^ Compare it also to regions of Poland:

https://i.imgur.com/A2GESW3.png

In Europa Barbarorum (mods for Total War), the Lugian Federation is one of factions:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?223191-Luguwa-ancient-Poland

https://i.imgur.com/dojnCKO.png

http://oi49.tinypic.com/34gx4s5.jpg

The Lugiones Faction Preview:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?413770-Preview-The-Lugiones

[Dick]

Y-DNA from Germany in the 300s-400s AD shows 58% frequency of I1 and not much R1. Why did R1 kill I1 men?

12 samples from Görzig (Saxony-Anhalt) dated to the 300s-400s AD, of whom 7 or 8 were I1:

I1 --------------------------------------------------------- 7 (~58%)
I (likely I2 but can be some Russian clade of I1) ---- 1 (~8%)
R1b ------------------------------------------------------- 1 (~8%)
R1 (most likely R1a, or some eastern R1b) ----------- 1 (~8%)
R1 (likely R1b but can be R1a-Z284 or L664) -------- 2 (~17%)

[Peterski]

^^^
Old news, I think the % of R1 is higher now with more of ancient samples.


the Vandals

Vandals was a "collective" name, it was a confederation of several tribes. Charini (could be identical with Harii), Varinnae and Burgundians all belonged to the Vandals (probably among others).

Pliny the Elder counted also Goths as one of "Vandalic tribes", but this has to be wrong because Goths were not part of the Vandals according to other authors and according to what we know about the Migration Period (migrated separately from each other, established different kingdoms).

[Peterski]

Semnones were part of the Suebi (Sweboz), who belonged to the Irminonic branch (Herminones):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMNF4OcHsSU&t=548s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjVJckcQl5A

^^^
Europa Barbarorum is a mod for Rome TW and Europa Barbarorum 2 is a mod for Medieval 2 TW.

[Bobby Martnen]

http://oi49.tinypic.com/34gx4s5.jpg


This looks like it should be from a video game or something

[Peterski]

This looks like it should be from a video game or something

From Europa Barbarorum (a very historically accurate modification for Total War games):

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?413770-Preview-The-Lugiones

^^^ This is good read. This mod was made by people with huge knowledge of history.

[Bobby Martnen]

From Europa Barbarorum (a very historically accurate modification for Total War games):

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?413770-Preview-The-Lugiones

^^^ This is good read. This mod was made by people with huge knowledge of history.

Speaking of mods, do you know a CivFanatics user "embryodead"? He's Polish, I think. He made two really great Civ 4 mods (Sword of Islam, Sengoku), but he hasn't logged into CivFanatics in almost 5 years.

[Peterski]

I used to play Hotseat Campaigns on http://forum.totalwar.org.pl/ but it isn't even working anymore.

I don't know embryodead, but maybe he was posting on this Polish forum under a different nick.

[Bobby Martnen]

I used to play Hotseat Campaigns on http://forum.totalwar.org.pl/ but it isn't even working anymore.

I don't know embryodead, but maybe he was posting on this Polish forum under a different nick.

Thanks. Did you ever play and Civ 4 mods?

As for embryodead, he may have been Czech or something, but I think he was Polish. Here's his PayPal donation site - is this language Polish?
https://www.paypal.com/donate/?token=b8dc-q6SIfr0qSfrcU3leXPArfFq6BAbg1dYsz8spoPD1zw7u_oGmzA hTEe4L8ECS-40m0&country.x=PL&locale.x=

[Peterski]

Did you ever play and Civ 4 mods?

Nope.

[Gründig]

Germania is a classic.
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus1.html

I'm in the process of reading this now.

[Gründig]

Watching and reading through stuff posted

Bump.

[Congolese Rice]

idk much, but i think there used to be shitloads of germanic tribes, looking at some pictures here i already give up XD

[Gründig]

bump

[Gründig]

bump

[Ülev]

vote:
What is the proto-germanic haplogroup ? I1 or R-U106 ?
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?185296-What-is-the-proto-germanic-haplogroup-I1-or-R-U106

[Gründig]

Anyone have any maps of the Germanic tribes locations in Germany?

[Mikula]

Anyone have any maps of the Germanic tribes locations in Germany?

Here is map of Central Europe, with Germanic tribes (around 50 AD) at Germany Denmark Poland Ukraine, Czechia, Slovakia...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Germanen_50_n._Chr.png

[tekken999]

I'm not as interested in this topic of germanic tribes as much as I should be because they were influential no doubt and I like ancient history but there's a book call How the Barbarian Invasions Shaped the Modern World Thomas J. Craughwell which was well worth the read and it details the important epochs of the tribes such as Vandals and Goths that played pivotal moments within european history. I'd recommend it for sure.

[tekken999]

Here is a pretty good map post fall of Western Roman Empire circa the time of Clovis's conquest. Most of the major germanic kingdoms have already been established throughout europe by this time.


https://i.imgur.com/x8XbNFt.png

[Hulu]

Ptolemy map Germania

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fq-guE2EUAg/TKZ-FK0gc7I/AAAAAAAAAu0/Jk2dPiS6R3Q/s1600/Ptolemy_Germania.jpg

http://paulbuddehistory.com/europe/barbarians-rule/

[Hulu]

Tacitus Germania

https://image3.slideserve.com/6445339/the-first-century-germanic-tribes-as-described-by-tacitus-n.jpg

[Lucas]

I added to Gedmatch Samples from Collegno cemetary. Half of them are pure Longobards

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-06024-4

Z944242 CL102
Z164515 CL110
Z279508 CL121
Z292114 CL145
Z704319 CL146
Z887215 CL151
Z909242 CL23
Z709636 CL25
Z122289 CL30
Z560798 CL31
Z860518 CL36
Z567940 CL38
Z610815 CL47
Z036148 CL49
Z057802 CL53
Z025972 CL57
Z764942 CL63
Z683996 CL83
Z268097 CL84
Z752825 CL87
Z456909 CL92
Z245031 CL93
Z104813 CL94


https://i.imgur.com/yTMurqS.png

[Gründig]

I added to Gedmatch Samples from Collegno cemetary. Half of them are pure Longobards

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-06024-4

Z944242 CL102
Z164515 CL110
Z279508 CL121
Z292114 CL145
Z704319 CL146
Z887215 CL151
Z909242 CL23
Z709636 CL25
Z122289 CL30
Z560798 CL31
Z860518 CL36
Z567940 CL38
Z610815 CL47
Z036148 CL49
Z057802 CL53
Z025972 CL57
Z764942 CL63
Z683996 CL83
Z268097 CL84
Z752825 CL87
Z456909 CL92
Z245031 CL93
Z104813 CL94


https://i.imgur.com/yTMurqS.png

I see that they were put on global 25 and broken up into 2 groups: regular and outliers.

[Mingle]

Anyone have any maps of the Germanic tribes locations in Germany?

For modern day ones in Germany:

• Saxons (North Germany)
• Frisians (East Frisia)
• Ripuarian Franks (Rhineland, Hessen)
• East Franks (Franconia)
• Bavarians (Old Bavaria inc. most of Austria & South Tyrol)
• Alemanns (Most of BW, Bavarian Swabia, German-Switzerland, Vorarlberg)
• Thuringians (Thuringia, Upper Saxony, Southern Saxony-Anhalt)

The term tribe isn't used anymore though and these would be considered either ethnicities or sub-ethnicites today. Also, most Germans don't even really identify with those stuff anymore, especially in the north. Some of those people also live in the Netherlands (Saxons & Frisians). The Hessians were considered their own distinct tribe in the past but got assimilated by the Franks. The people of Franconia (Northern Bavaria, Northern BW) used to be Alemann in the past, but adopted Frankish identity after the Franks conquered them. Upper Saxony was also named Saxony after Saxons from North Germany ("Old Saxony") conquered them but they aren't descended from Saxons. I'll make a separate post on the historic tribes.

[Mingle]

Germanic tribes first appeared in the Jutland Peninsula (modern day Denmark). They spoke Proto-Germanic which then later got divided into three main groups: East Germanic, North Germanic (Scandinavian/Norse), and West Germanic. Norse can be split into West Norse (Norwegian, Icelandic) and East Norse (Swedish, Danish). Historically, there were much more Scandinavian tribes that got assimilated into the modern Scandinavian nationalities. The Jamts were considered a distinct nationality historically for example but now most identify as Swedes. Sweden was formed as a union between the Geats and Swedes with the lands of other Germanic tribes in the region being conquered. Norway gets its name from either "north way" or from King Nor rather than a Germanic tribe. The tribes of Norway (now assimilated into the ethnic Norwegian identity) included the Horders, Telers, Raners, Tronders, etc. and these can still be found in the names of Norway's provinces. Icelandic people are descended from Norwegian immigrants. Also, the first European man to discover America (Leif Erikson) is Icelandic. Danish people originated in Skane (modern day Sweden) and then later expanded to Jutland. The Danes then assimilated the Jutes. Prior to the Jutes, the main Germanic tribe in Jutland were the Cimbri (the Jutland Peninsula was called the Cimbrian Peninsula before). The Teutons were also a Germanic tribe from the Jutland Peninsula and all Germanic people were named after them by foreigners (similar to how all English people are named after the Angles/Saxons depending on what language you speak). The Germanic tribes that went to England include the Batavians, Jutes, Frisians, Angles, Saxons, Franks, and a few others (basically from the North Sea area). The Germanics would constantly raid Britain and as the Roman Empire lost control of Britain, it became easier for them to conquer it. East Germanic languages are all extinct but the main groups of East Germanics were the Goths, Burgundians, and Vandals. The Goths were the most powerful of them and even lasted up until the 18th century in a small pocket in Crimea. The East Germanic tribes are famous for their empires in Southwest Europe. The Vandals even made it to North Africa where they beat the Romans (but then it got reconquered by the Romans). The Mediterranean Sea was known as the 'Wendle Sea' in Old English. West Germanics can be split into three main subgroups: Irminones (South Germans/Austrians/Swiss), Istvaeones (Netherlanders/Salian Franks), and Ingvaeones (Saxons, English, Frisians). The biggest and most numerous of these were the Saxons who basically assimilated all the tribes in modern day North Germany and the Northeastern Netherlands. They were the last Germanic tribe to convert to Christianity. Their language is nowadays called 'Low German' or 'Low Saxon' and there isn't much of a Saxon ethnic consciousness among them, they identify as only ethnic German or ethnic Dutch for the most part. Dutch people are descended from Salian Franks (who have a different origin from the Irminonic Ripuarian Franks). The Franks that conquered Gaul (France) were Salians.

This was just a short overview on whatever Germanic ethnicity came to my head, mainly regarding their origins. I can elaborate more on the details if you want or if you think I forgot about anything.

I think most Northwest Europeans cluster together genetically so they aren't too different genetically. Although the English have a lot of Brythonic blood, the Brythonics didn't have significant genetic differences with the Germanics. The Med blood among the English mostly comes from the Frenchmen/Normans (conquered England in 1066 AD) rather than from natives.

They followed local variations of Germanic paganism and wrote in local variations of futhark (Germanic runes). The days of the week (except for Saturday and Sunday) are all named after Germanic deities:

[Mjolnir]

Try reading Jordanes’ book titled The Origins & Deeds of the Goths as a primer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Peterski]

Very interested in learning more about them:

Who were they?

What were their names?

Where were they located?

What religion did they follow?

Which tribes do we have DNA samples of today?

What populations today share DNA with them?

Post all reputable sources here, as well as maps, pictures, etc.

Population size: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?260572-Population-size-of-Ancient-Germanic-Tribes

[Peterski]

http://www.mpov.uw.edu.pl/userfiles/pl/Badania/Publikacje/tsunamiinternetzokladka.pdf

[TheOldNorth]

Y-DNA from Germany in the 300s-400s AD shows 58% frequency of I1 and not much R1. Why did R1 kill I1 men?

12 samples from Görzig (Saxony-Anhalt) dated to the 300s-400s AD, of whom 7 or 8 were I1:

I1 --------------------------------------------------------- 7 (~58%)
I (likely I2 but can be some Russian clade of I1) ---- 1 (~8%)
R1b ------------------------------------------------------- 1 (~8%)
R1 (most likely R1a, or some eastern R1b) ----------- 1 (~8%)
R1 (likely R1b but can be R1a-Z284 or L664) -------- 2 (~17%)

the modern high R1b frequencies are likely from assimilated celts

[Coastal Elite]

https://i.imgur.com/Ab9YRd7.jpg

[Rico33]

Y-DNA from Germany in the 300s-400s AD shows 58% frequency of I1 and not much R1. Why did R1 kill I1 men?

12 samples from Görzig (Saxony-Anhalt) dated to the 300s-400s AD, of whom 7 or 8 were I1:

I1 --------------------------------------------------------- 7 (~58%)
I (likely I2 but can be some Russian clade of I1) ---- 1 (~8%)
R1b ------------------------------------------------------- 1 (~8%)
R1 (most likely R1a, or some eastern R1b) ----------- 1 (~8%)
R1 (likely R1b but can be R1a-Z284 or L664) -------- 2 (~17%)

The Huns and such maybe. What you fear may happen already might have happened hundreds of years ago