The Spirit of Carson

[British and Proud]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IsIVb_6uIco/SXIL1BrP2jI/AAAAAAAAAFE/q85Ltr9Y-RI/s1600/covenantcarson.jpg

Above: Sir Edward Carson signing the Ulster Covenant.

When I was at university it was fashionable to support the Irish Republican movement, however I have always been adamant that it is right and proper that Northern Ireland should remain part of the United Kingdom, so long as it reflects the will of the majority of the Northern Irish people. It is a matter of self-determination, nothing more, nothing less.

It is often said that Loyal Ulstermen are essentially descended from colonisers who appropriated the land, however historical sources show this is not the case:


The really effective plantation of Ulster took place from a different source altogether - through an originally small privately-organized Protestant settlement of Scots that had begun on the Ards peninsula of Ulster's east coast a few years earlier. There, Scotland lies only just across the water. For centuries, before the Reformation, Scots had been coming across this North Channel and settling in this part of of Ireland, usually becoming indistinguishable from the Gaelic Irish people among whom they settled. But just before the 1610 plantation -in 1606 - a private settlement had been undertaken by two Scottish Protestant adventurers named Montgomery and Hamilton after a deal with the local Gaelic chieftain. This eastern Protestant planation of Ulster prospered rapidly and became the bridgehead by which, for the rest of the century and beyond, individual Scottish settlers flocked to Northern Ireland. They spread outward from there through the town of Belfast, over the whole of Antrim and Down. They even spread right across Ulster to fill the gaps left in the official plantation of the west. The geographical distributions of Protestant and Catholic in Northern Ireland today still reveal clearly the two separate settlements of Ulster of over 300 years ago.



Ireland, A History; Robert Kee; Abacus, London; Chapter 3, No Surrender; pp 41, 42.

Additionally, Michael Collins and the government of the Irish Free State ratified the Anglo-Irish Treaty, thus accepting the partition of the island, and therefore Northern Ireland as a legitimate state. However, the fact that the six counties today remains part of the United Kingdom is due to the will, determination and sheer obstinacy of Unionists, particularly Sir Edward Carson.

The spectre of Irish Home Rule had existed for decades, ever since Gladstone first submitted the first Bill in 1896. This and subsequent Bills were thwarted in part due to the intervention of the House of Lords. However, after the passing of the Parliament Act of 1911 which assured the supremacy of the House of Commons, it seemed Home Rule for Ireland was inevitable.

Carson was determined that Ulster would not be ruled from Dublin, and thus used his influence to ensure the province was exempt from the Home Rule Bill. He was the first to sign The Ulster Covenant:


Ulster’s Solemn League and Covenant

Being convinced in our consciences that Home Rule would be disastrous to the material well-being of Ulster as well as of the whole of Ireland, subversive of our civil and religious freedom, destructive of our citizenship and perilous to the unity of the Empire, we, whose names are underwritten, men of Ulster, loyal subjects of his Gracious Majesty King George V, humbly relying on the God whom our fathers in days of stress and trial confidently trusted, do hereby pledge ourselves in solemn Covenant throughout this our time of threatened calamity to stand by one another in defending for ourselves and our children our cherished position of equal citizenship in the United Kingdom and in using all means which may be found necessary to defeat the present conspiracy to set up a Home Rule Parliament in Ireland. And in the event of such a Parliament being forced upon us we further solemnly and mutually pledge ourselves to refuse to recognise its authority. In sure confidence that God will defend the right we hereto subscribe our names. And further, we individually declare that we have not already signed this Covenant.

The above was signed by me at ___________________

Ulster Day, Saturday 28th, September, 1912.

God Save the King


It was signed by more than 500,000 Ulstermen and women. The phrase 'using all means which may be found necessary' implied that the signatories were prepared to use force to ensure that they were not subjected to government from Dublin, and a people that they believed didn't value their religion, culture and traditions.

In order to ensure their message didn't fall upon deaf ears, the people of Ulster established the Ulster Volunteer Force:
The Ulster Volunteer Force UVF was established in January 1913, as a militant expression of Ulster Unionist opposition to the Third Home Rule Bill. It built on the foundations of pre-existing paramilitary activity and, at its height in early 1914, reached a strength of 100,000.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IsIVb_6uIco/SXJxdG3PWoI/AAAAAAAAAFM/UvhjBT4yZyg/s1600/carsonsstatue.jpg

Above: Carson's statue outside Stormont

The Great War meant that Home Rule never materialised, and 32,186 men from the UVF who fought in the 36th (Ulster) Division were killed, wounded or missing. Meanwhile, while these brave volunteers were in France risking their lives, the Republican Movement saw their chance to overthrow British rule and after the 1916 Easter Rising resorted to terrorist tactics under the leadership of Michael Collins and eventually succeeded in establishing an Irish Republic, though six counties of Ulster to this day remain part of the United Kingdom.

Had it not been for the spirit of Carson et al, the Northern Irish people would probably be citizens of the Republic of Ireland today. He galvanised the people of Ulster and made Westminster sit up and take notice of them.

[Osweo]

Had it not been for the spirit of Carson et al, the Northern Irish people would probably be citizens of the Republic of Ireland today.

Actually, they would probably just have left the country. I'm sure somebody could dig out the statistics for the rapid fall in the Protestant population following the 20s in the Republic, but the simple site of ruined Church of Ireland churches is enough to spell it out. These once had large congregations, and now many lie roofless with trees growing in the nave, like one I know near Thurles, where my Catholic relatives are now buried. The position of Anglicans in the South is a little harder to justify than that of the Northern Irish Protestants up in Ulster, but even so, a whole way of being 'Irish' was ripped up out of the landscape and consigned a footnote of history.

The greater social diversity of the Northern Protestants and their greater tie to the land would make such a fate even more horrific, but I don't see what else could have happened had they ended up in the theocratic Free State. Eire has mellowed out a little, but there's still enough difference there to justify the two state policy.

[British and Proud]

Actually, they would probably just have left the country. I'm sure somebody could dig out the statistics for the rapid fall in the Protestant population following the 20s in the Republic, but the simple site of ruined Church of Ireland churches is enough to spell it out. These once had large congregations, and now many lie roofless with trees growing in the nave, like one I know near Thurles, where my Catholic relatives are now buried. The position of Anglicans in the South is a little harder to justify than that of the Northern Irish Protestants up in Ulster, but even so, a whole way of being 'Irish' was ripped up out of the landscape and consigned a footnote of history.

The greater social diversity of the Northern Protestants and their greater tie to the land would make such a fate even more horrific, but I don't see what else could have happened had they ended up in the theocratic Free State. Eire has mellowed out a little, but there's still enough difference there to justify the two state policy.

From memory the protestant population in the Free State (later the Republic) fell quickly from around 9% to 2%. Many different reasons are given for this, some say they left voluntarily, whilst others say they were forced out or left because of the vicious civil war.

I found the following on Wikipedia:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b1/Irland_protestants_1861-1991.gif

I think it would be pretty hard to move such a vast population with an overwhelming majority in Ulster. It could have only been done by brute force which will have prompted retaliation and, I would like to think, the intervention of the British forces.

The fact is Carson made it unnecessary, the UVF were so strong and relatively experienced that they would have easily held their own and this is why the British and ultimately Michael Collins conceded that partition was in everybody's best interests.

[British and Proud]

A YouTube video that musically relates Carson's effort to raise an army to fight in the First World War:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIuTqM7-N_s

[Loyalist]

I've found the signatures of several relatives on the Covenent. My family was unfortunate enough to inhabit one of the three counties of Ulster which were incorporated into the Republic, Monaghan to be specific, and they left following threats and intimidation from the local Catholic populace. We're mixed Ulster-Scottish Presbyterians and Anglo-Irish Anglicans, and I can attest to the fact that there was an exodus of both following the partition.

[Gooding]

I've found the signatures of several relatives on the Covenent. My family was unfortunate enough to inhabit one of the three counties of Ulster which were incorporated into the Republic, Monaghan to be specific, and they left following threats and intimidation from the local Catholic populace. We're mixed Ulster-Scottish Presbyterians and Anglo-Irish Anglicans, and I can attest to the fact that there was an exodus of both following the partition.

Andrew Lawson, my latest ancestor to leave Ulster, was born in Coleraine,Londonderry, in 1784 and died in Sevier County,TN, in 1854.I really don't know why he would leave at that time because presumably the Protestants wielded a good deal more power than they did around 1916.Was religion the only reason people left Northern Ireland, pre and post Partition, or did the economy also factor in? I know that during the Colonial days, the Ulster Scots came over due to a combination of economic and religious reasons and in the early twentieth century, people came over for reasons of ethnically and religiously inspired terrorism, but the time frame I mention, I'm fuzzy about. My sympathies to your family, Loyalist, for their forced eviction and my hats off to them for their steadfast courage in signing the Covenant.:thumb001:

[Osweo]

I really don't know why he would leave at that time ....Was religion the only reason people left Northern Ireland, pre and post Partition, or did the economy also factor in?
Simple Wanderlust?

My Twice Great Grandad emigrated from Ireland to America, didn't like it, came back. He then went to Australia, didn't like it, came back. Quite rare a thing to do! Apparently, the family tradition is that he was greatly in demand for his ability to 'count sheep'... I don't know what to make of that, but that's what they say... :shoot

In the course of his travels, he found time for trigamy, apparently! :eek:

As for Protestants in the South, a lot of the time, it was psychological, without actual pressure - they knew they weren't on top any more, and some felt they were becoming something of an anachronism. The family where my Grandmother came from in Tipperary just dwindled away. The last heir had no children, and my Papist Great Grandmother - a very intelligent and formidable woman by all accounts - married him, late in life, and so my lot inherited the farm... :p

[Creeping Death]

Britain wanted rid of Ireland altogether in 1911, so much so they organised the Home Rule Bill. This idiot Edward Carson in order to stay British, even though the British didnt want them, was prepared to fight and kill British Soldiers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Carson#Unionism) so they could remain just that British. Lunacy at its best..........

[Osweo]

Britain wanted rid of Ireland altogether in 1911, so much so they organised the Home Rule Bill. This idiot Edward Carson in order to stay British, even though the British didnt want them, was prepared to fight and kill British Soldiers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Carson#Unionism) so they could remain just that British. Lunacy at its best..........

The original Home Rule Bill was not much more than Scottish Devolution of today. Hardly 'getting rid of'. Carson and co. recognised that this would harm the interests of their people, and stood up to Westminster sell-outs. All well and good. It would probably not have ended in civil war, but in Home Rule Within Home Rule or some similar compromise. But then came the Great War and the 1916 rehearsal of the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution. And we all lived happily ever after.

[Creeping Death]

Carson and co. recognised that this would harm the interests of their people
I like that 'their people', I see you getting used to the idea that these people dont belong in Ireland.

[Osweo]

I like that 'their people', I see you getting used to the idea that these people dont belong in Ireland.

Their people, meaning the Ulstermen, Ulster Scots, Protestant Ultonians or whatever they call themselves these days. How does the fact of their uniqueness, non-Englishness, non-Scottishness, infer that they don't belong in Ireland? They don't belong anywhere else.

Where do you get 'belong' from anyway? As though there were objective laws concerning this sort of thing. There is no higher justice to appeal to, just Possession. They'll still be there long after you and I have crumbled into dust. What a waste of your mental energies, to go round forever whining about them, when nothing can be done about it. Grow up and learn to live with it.

[Creeping Death]

Their people, meaning the Ulstermen, Ulster Scots, Protestant Ultonians or whatever they call themselves these days. How does the fact of their uniqueness, non-Englishness, non-Scottishness, infer that they don't belong in Ireland? They don't belong anywhere else.
They see themselves as British, so if they want to be British go live in Britain, Ireland is Irish.

[Loyalist]

...Ireland is Irish.

And Ulster is British.

[Gooding]

And Ulster is British.

It's been British since the time of King James I, by right of settlement, development and possession. The intense Protestant faith of the majority of the families that have been there since 1600, as opposed to the squatters from the Irish Republic who have chosen to invade a part of the island their ancestors had little to no part of. That's kind of like Mexicans invading an historically British former colony..like Virginia!Different cultures, languages, ways of life and peoples forced to share space with mutually alien and hostile tribes.What business has a Munster man in Belfast?:rolleyes:

[Brynhild]

It seems to be all too easy for some members here to discuss the nature of troubles in a country that they apparently don't even live in. I wonder what the attitude would really be like if they were to actually live there and deal with - in your face as it were.

[Creeping Death]

And Ulster is British.
Was British as it is Part of Ulster there are 9 counties which make up the Irish province of Ulster 3 of which have been liberated by war. 6 counties still under multicultural British occupation of those 6 Indigenous Irish now constitute a majority the other 2 the indigenous Irish will be a majority within a decade.

It's been British since the time of King James I, by right of settlement, development and possession.
No surrender treaty was ever signed by the Irish, the war against British multiculturalism contnued on.

The intense Protestant faith of the majority of the families that have been there since 1600, as opposed to the squatters from the Irish Republic who have chosen to invade a part of the island their ancestors had little to no part of.
The ancient Irish Ulaid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulaid) who gave their name to Ulster and gave the ancient Ulster cycle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Cycle) to Irish literature from the Irish Dál Riata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalriada) the ancient Gaelic kingdom. A 100% pure Celtic Ireland.

That's kind of like Mexicans invading an historically British former colony..like Virginia!Different cultures, languages, ways of life and peoples forced to share space with mutually alien and hostile tribes.What business has a Munster man in Belfast?:rolleyes:
Ulster has always been the richest and most heavily populated province in Ireland thats why the British parasites took it first under Olivers army, but as demographics go the British squatter population are leaving in drovers going back to England and Lowland Scotland :thumb001:

It seems to be all too easy for some members here to discuss the nature of troubles in a country that they apparently don't even live in. I wonder what the attitude would really be like if they were to actually live there and deal with - in your face as it were.
I have lived there, three times in fact, even as a child went to school there, my eldest sister and brother are born in Ireland, my Brother lives in Free Derry my Sister lives in Dublin. Im just so happy I am witnessing the demise of British multiculturalism, kinda of why I wont allow my country on Apricity to be shown as it would bring up the Australian flag with the Union Jack on it the shame of it all .

[Osweo]

Was British as it is Part of Ulster there are 9 counties which make up the Irish province of Ulster 3 of which have been liberated by war. 6 counties still under multicultural British occupation of those 6 Indigenous Irish now constitute a majority the other 2 the indigenous Irish will be a majority within a decade.
Where do you get your figures?
And excuse people little errors, like confusing the Six Counties with Ulster. It's not as if Ulster's borders have always been hard and fast. A good part of Louth was in it once upon a time, and the Leitrim border has shifted plenty.

No surrender treaty was ever signed by the Irish, the war against British multiculturalism contnued on.
A nation never signs a document, there are too many people. These things are signed by whoever has the power or recognition at the time, and have to be lived with as such, until power shifts.

The ancient Irish Ulaid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulaid) who gave their name to Ulster and gave the ancient Ulster cycle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Cycle) to Irish literature from the Irish Dál Riata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalriada) the ancient Gaelic kingdom. A 100% pure Celtic Ireland.
We had a 100% Celtic Britain too, in the ancient past. I suggest you look at the modern reality, instead of your 'Celtic Myths and Legends' picture-book. The population of both our main islands has never been entirely homogenous anyway. Dismiss these fantasies.

Ulster has always been the richest and most heavily populated province in Ireland thats why the British parasites took it first under Olivers army, but as demographics go the British squatter population are leaving in drovers going back to England and Lowland Scotland :thumb001:
Drovers are men who drive 'droves'. :rolleyes:
Ulster was never particularly rich, Leinster and Munster can easily pass it in that regard. So probably could Meath have done, when there were five provinces.
Ulster was targetted the way it was because it had the most solid political structure, and was in good contact with Scotland's Gaels. It was the last domain of the old order, while other areas had been pacified. That's why it got the most extreme treatment.

I have lived there, three times in fact, even as a child went to school there, my eldest sister and brother are born in Ireland, my Brother lives in Free Derry my Sister lives in Dublin. Im just so happy I am witnessing the demise of British multiculturalism, kinda of why I wont allow my country on Apricity to be shown as it would bring up the Australian flag with the Union Jack on it the shame of it all .
Oh, you must feel so terrible every second of every day and night, as you think, speak and even dream in our language! :p

Oh, and Gooding, the non-Loyalists in the 6 counties are not all from other provinces. Quite a few have been there all along. They may now form the minority of that group, I couldn't say.

[Beorn]

The intense Protestant faith of the majority of the families that have been there since 1600, as opposed to the squatters from the Irish Republic who have chosen to invade a part of the island their ancestors had little to no part of.

My partners family has lived in Antrim for longer than there has been a presence of Normans in Ireland.

She has as much right to settle there than any other.

[Creeping Death]

Where do you get your figures?
And excuse people little errors, like confusing the Six Counties with Ulster. It's not as if Ulster's borders have always been hard and fast. A good part of Louth was in it once upon a time, and the Leitrim border has shifted plenty.

A nation never signs a document, there are too many people. These things are signed by whoever has the power or recognition at the time, and have to be lived with as such, until power shifts.

We had a 100% Celtic Britain too, in the ancient past. I suggest you look at the modern reality, instead of your 'Celtic Myths and Legends' picture-book. The population of both our main islands has never been entirely homogenous anyway. Dismiss these fantasies.

Drovers are men who drive 'droves'. :rolleyes:
Ulster was never particularly rich, Leinster and Munster can easily pass it in that regard. So probably could Meath have done, when there were five provinces.
Ulster was targetted the way it was because it had the most solid political structure, and was in good contact with Scotland's Gaels. It was the last domain of the old order, while other areas had been pacified. That's why it got the most extreme treatment.
Obviously no points have been made here.

Oh, you must feel so terrible every second of every day and night, as you think, speak and even dream in our language! :p
No Im just embarrassed of being born in a country that still has that ridiculous flag of a ridiculous people. I like Americas flag the people who had the guts to fight and pull away.

[Gooding]

My partners family has lived in Antrim for longer than there has been a presence of Normans in Ireland.

She has as much right to settle there than any other.

At least.More, even.:) I see Brynhild's point, too, though. Much of what we have here( in the United States) is information collected from the POV of Irish Americans who came here over the last century, whilst the POV of the Scotch-Irish deals now more with the appalling conditions of Appalachia and government exploitation of the Scotch-Irish heartland. Why discuss the troubles of a country that we know about solely through ancestral memories and folktales? On account of the fact that in this multicultural paradigm we were raised with, now it's fashionable for Americans to focus on their families' points of origin rather than the land they and their grandparents know.It seems to me that "everyone wants to be a foreigner", as if this land weren't good enough for them.Therefore, we keep abreast of international news and focus on our ancestral countries and participate in discussions about them.Very vehemently, in truth. Hell, I still speak French (more or less, rather less and badly, really) and I can be reduced to tears when France is maligned, yet the Creole heartland remains in Louisiana.I'm equally passionate( at least) about my heritage in other lands, yet my Fatherland remains on this side of the Atlantic, although I remember and cherish my roots from elsewhere.Scotland, England, Ulster, Germany and Switzerland are the "elsewheres".I'd be emotionally paralyzed if French and German folks went after each other here:( I don't like choosing sides, but I would invariably side with my own.

[Creeping Death]

whilst the POV of the Scotch-Irish deals now more with the appalling conditions of Appalachia and government exploitation of the Scotch-Irish heartland.
I believe the movie Deliverance gave an accurate portrayal of those people.

[Gooding]

Cool.In that case, I guess "Angela's Ashes" by Frank McCourt gave an accurate description of the Irish( read the book and watched the movie)."Those people", by the way, won the American Revolution and are greatly respected hereabouts, as our Senator, Jim Webb, is one of them.

[masty]

Ulster Legend.

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http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41084000/jpg/_41084656_stormont_1_getty_416.jpg


1912.

[masty]

http://www.ebhcs.co.uk/thorndykestreet/000.jpg

[masty]

The 36th. Ulster Division.

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