From Prague Spring to Soviet winter: 50 years since the Warsaw Pact invasion

[Magnolia]

http://scd.france24.com/en/files/imagecache/france24_large_652_338/article/image/prague-1968-m.jpg
© AFP archive | Thousands of Czechs surrounded Soviet tanks on August 21, 1968, to protest the Warsaw Pact invasion, often appealing directly to the Soviet soldiers to stop.
Text by Khatya CHHOR

Latest update : 2018-08-20

More than 200,000 Soviet and Warsaw Pact troops invaded Czechoslovakia overnight from August 20 to 21, 1968, to halt a blossoming political and cultural liberalisation, bringing an abrupt end to the Prague Spring and tightening the Kremlin's grip.
The first months of 1968 had brought a renaissance of political and cultural life in what was then Czechoslovakia. Journalists and students were calling for an end to censorship, public rallies in support of reform erupted in Prague and beyond, and that year’s May Day commemorations were seized upon by those demanding greater freedoms.

Upon assuming the Czechoslovak leadership in January by becoming first secretary of the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia, Alexander Dubcek quickly declared his intention to push ahead with liberalisations that included freedom of speech and religion, an end to censorship and travel restrictions, and industrial and agricultural reforms.

By April the government had published an “action programme” outlining Dubcek’s plans to establish "socialism with a human face". The plan provided for a gradual democratisation of the political system over a 10-year period, economic liberalisations and called for Communists to compete with other parties in future elections. The government officially ended its censorship policy in June.

Alarmed by these moves and what appeared to be the beginning of the end of Czechoslovak Communism, several fellow Warsaw Pact nations made their objections known in a July communiqué, saying the Czechoslovak reform programme “jeopardises the common vital interests of other socialist countries”.

Soviet-led military exercises in Czechoslovakia’s southern Sumava region that month also appeared designed to send a message to the leadership in Prague.

Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev tried to curtail the Prague Spring’s momentum with a series of talks, meeting directly with Dubcek in late July in the small border town of Cierna nad Tisou. Brezhnev demanded key reformers be removed from leadership positions and restrictions be tightened on the media; Dubcek defended the reformist moves while reiterating his commitment to the Warsaw Pact and the Eastern Bloc economic alliance known as Comecon.

Unappeased, by mid-August the Kremlin had decided to intervene more forcefully.

Shortly before midnight on August 20, more than 200,000 Soviet and Warsaw Pact troops from Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria and East Germany (Romania and Albania refused to take part) invaded Czechoslovakia to put an end to the reform efforts, with the occupying forces eventually totalling 500,000. “Operation Danube” was the largest military mobilisation in Europe since the end of World War II.

Rebellion

At around 1am local time on August 21, the presidium of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia issued a statement calling on “all citizens of the Republic to keep the peace and not resist the advancing armies, because the defence of our state borders is now impossible”.

The army was told to remain in barracks and not intervene.

But ordinary Czechoslovak citizens poured into the streets in acts of resistance, confronting the soldiers directly and surrounding tanks in Prague and other cities. Students and others gathered on the capital’s main Wenceslas Square, stringing up banners calling for “Svoboda” (Freedom) and expressing support for Dubcek and his government. Crowds chanted, “Dub-cek! Svo-bo-da!”

“Dramatic scenes of Czech citizens in confrontation with confused soldiers of the invading armies played on television screens around the world,” wrote Michael Long in “Making History: Czech Voices of Dissent and the Revolution of 1989”.

Soviet soldiers had been told they were rescuing Czechoslovakia from an imminent anti-Communist "counter-revolution".

The invading troops initially seemed reluctant to use force against local residents, Long wrote. “As the days passed, however, frustrated and embattled tank commanders assumed a more forceful attitude."

Many residents began gathering in front of the Radio Prague building, where clashes left more than a dozen dead. By 8am the building had been occupied by Soviet soldiers.

“Suddenly the door to the studio flew open. In the doorway stood a soldier, his uniform covered in dust. He pointed a machine gun at me and said ‘Von!’ - which means ‘Out!’ in Russian,” recounted Cecile Koiova in a Radio Prague history.

Broadcasting at the main building was halted, but journalists continued sending out makeshift broadcasts from ancillary studios the soldiers hadn't found.

Accounts of how many people were killed in the Warsaw Pact invasion vary widely. A previously secret Czech interior ministry report published in 1990 revealed that 82 people were killed and 300 seriously wounded in the invasion, most of them shot. Last year a team of Czech historians estimated the number of victims at 137.

The Czech leadership’s leading reformers – Dubcek and premier Oldrich Cernik along with Jozef Smrkovsky and Frantisek Kriegel – were quickly arrested and taken to Moscow. They were soon joined by president Ludvik Svoboda, deputy chairman of the government Gustav Husak and others.

After days of secret negotiations the Czech officials returned to Prague, having agreed to Soviet troops being stationed along the Czechoslovak border and reinstating censorship of the press under an agreement known as the Moscow Protocol.

Upon his return, Dubcek gave an emotional radio address in which he announced the curtailment of reforms and urged cooperation. Thus began Czechoslovakia’s period of “normalisation”, which reasserted Kremlin control and returned the country to ideological compliance.

The invasion also helped establish the Brezhnev Doctrine, the foreign policy under which Moscow assumed the authority to intervene in countries where it felt Communist rule was under threat.

On January 16, 1969, Charles University student Jan Palach immolated himself on Wenceslas Square to protest against the continuing Soviet occupation. His death three days later provided a new rallying point, unleashing another wave of demonstrations and civil disobedience against the Soviet invasion as Palach became a national hero.

Unrest erupted again in March when the Czechoslovaks beat the Soviet team in two matches at the World Ice Hockey Championships. Having lost the Kremlin’s confidence that he could contain the situation, Dubcek was forced to resign in April. Husak took over the helm of the government where he remained until December 1989, when the Velvet Revolution succeeded in overthrowing Soviet rule.

Dubcek made a return to politics that year as chairman of a new parliament, which unanimously elected former dissident and playwright Vaclav Havel as Czechoslovakia’s first post-Communist president.

Date created : 2018-08-20
http://www.france24.com/en/20180820-warsaw-pact-invasion-soviet-troops-crush-prague-spring-1968-august-50-year-anniversary

[Finnish Swede]

What average Czechs thinks about Russians today?

[Mikula]

What average Czechs thinks about Russians today?

It depends which Czech is the "average Czech"

[Krivich]

I feel sorry for these soldiers.

[Finnish Swede]

It depends which Czech is the "average Czech"

So it variates a lot?

[Dandelion]

Czech still don't think positively of the Russian occupation I'm willing to bet, even if they're neutral toward Russians. If they were staunch Russophobes they might have ended up becoming 'friends of Finland'. Alas, it's not that way.

[Finnish Swede]

Czech still don't think positively of the Russian occupation I'm willing to bet, even if they're neutral toward Russians. If they were staunch Russophobes they might have ended up becoming 'friends of Finland'. Alas, it's not that way.

LOL. I know that some Czech hockey fans supported Finland as Finns played against Russians. Still don't know ... those might have been exceptions.

[Mikula]

So it variates a lot?

Invasion in 1968 is found as tragedy and betrayal by the most of Czechs.
Question is wheter we will hate for it:
a) Just the USSR and Soviet leaders of that times
b) Russia and Russians itself - yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Some Czechs thinks that a) is right another large group of Czechs thinks about b)

[Krivich]

What average Czechs thinks about Russians today?
Sometimes it seems to me that the Russians are gods for not very intelligent Europeans. Too much attention, too many thoughts about Russians and Russia. In the heat of all this fuss, propaganda and other shit, I am amazed by other Europeans who respect Russians and speak the truth. Usually these people have the highest level of intelligence and moral qualities.

[Magnolia]

In October 2004, the International Gallup Organization announced that according to its poll, anti-Russia sentiment remained fairly strong throughout Europe and the West in general. It found that Russia was the least popular G-8 country globally. The percentage of population with a "very negative" or "fairly negative" perception of Russia was 73% in Kosovo, 62% in Finland, 57% in Norway, 42% in the Czech Republic and Switzerland, 37% in Germany, 32% in Denmark and Poland, and 23% in Estonia.

It is probably the only survey that exist in regard to the topic.

[Magnolia]

https://en.stem.cz/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/word-image-8.png
But good to say most Russians who live here now are either businessmen or students.

[Krivich]

But good to say most Russians who live here now are either businessmen or students.
My cousin is engaged in business in the Czech Republic, he has permanent residence now or residence permit. But he lives longer in Russia. Very much admires the Czech Republic and always gives an example - how should we have in Russia.

[Krivich]

Czech still don't think positively of the Russian occupation I'm willing to bet, even if they're neutral toward Russians. If they were staunch Russophobes they might have ended up becoming 'friends of Finland'. Alas, it's not that way.
Reading you, I'm more and more sure that the Dutch are the most cruel Russophobes in the world. Maybe you have roots in Ukraine?

[Dandelion]

Reading you, I'm more and more sure that the Dutch are the most cruel Russophobes in the world. Maybe you have roots in Ukraine?

I just want FS and Magnolia to realise they'd make great friends. :) Russophobia is a means to an end, but Mag is just plain not a Russophobe.

[Magnolia]

My cousin is engaged in business in the Czech Republic, he has permanent residence now or residence permit. But he lives longer in Russia. Very much admires the Czech Republic and always gives an example - how should we have in Russia.

Well - it depends on personal experience. I personally heard to cry several Russian students (girls) "We have no clue we are so hated here, you are the most hateful people on the earth". I am just trying to be objective. It is very hard to speak for a whole nation.
In general - I would say Russians are not liked here, we absolutely hate when someone speaks to us in Russian and they think we will understand, don't need to mention about connecting us with Russians. On the other hand - our Russian immigrants are not problematic and it is a well known fact.

[Dragoon]

This may be of interest to some regarding Prague Spring:

https://www.rt.com/politics/436180-prague-spring-russian-poll/

[Krivich]

Well - it depends on personal experience. I personally heard to cry several Russian students (girls) "We have no clue we are so hated here, you are the most hateful people on the earth". I am just trying to be objective. It is very hard to speak for a whole nation.
In general - I would say Russians are not liked here, we absolutely hate when someone speaks to us in Russian and they think we will understand, don't need to mention about connecting us with Russians. On the other hand - our Russian immigrants are not problematic and it is a well known fact.
Your hatred is understandable. You were dependent on the Russian government, and it's hard for you to live with this thought today. But this has nothing to do with the modern generation. Russian people do not cause problems anywhere. The Russians are a very calm nation in general, even too calm. Today we live in prosperity and I hope that migration from Russia will cease altogether. I do not want to turn into gypsies or Ukrainians.

[Sarmatian]

It's quite amusing to see people thinking of themselves that high. You folks were bargained for and sold on international political market.

Roughly at the time of Prague events France was considering leaving NATO and building closer ties with USSR. Obviously USSR was heavily involved into this development. If that was to happen it would've been a major blow to Western block in it's confrontation with East. So US and USSR made a deal: USSR halting all its political games in France, US do the same in Warsaw Pact countries.

And so they both did. Except USSR halted all activities in France, including covert operations. In fact it would've been quite easy for USSR to perform same scenario in France forcing US to invade it. But they didn't as they followed agreement too strictly. Meanwhile US was still meddling in Czechoslovakia fueling anti-Russian movements behind scenes. Have to give them that, they outplayed Soviet leaders brilliantly.

That's destiny of all small states. Being sold and forced to obey. You were never free. If you think you are free now you're idiots.

[Finnish Swede]

Your hatred is understandable. You were dependent on the Russian government, and it's hard for you to live with this thought today. But this has nothing to do with the modern generation. Russian people do not cause problems anywhere. The Russians are a very calm nation in general, even too calm. Today we live in prosperity and I hope that migration from Russia will cease altogether. I do not want to turn into gypsies or Ukrainians.

You just can not think that people will forget quickly. Maybe so if next 4-5 generations of Russians have not caused problems. But geopolitical map will not change no matter what. What Russians keeps their "rights" to support/protect Russians interest OUTSIDE of Russian borders...is one thing which Europeans will not accept/look good.

BTW: Has Russia/Sovjet Union ever (officially) apology happenings of 1968?

[Krivich]

You just can not think that people will forget quickly. Maybe so if next 4-5 generations of Russians have not caused problems. But geopolitical map will not change no matter what. What Russians keeps their "rights" to support/protect Russians interest OUTSIDE of Russian borders...is one thing which Europeans will not accept/look good.

BTW: Has Russia/Sovjet Union ever (officially) apology happenings of 1968?
We all owe each other an apology.

Geopolitics? The fact is that almost always several parties are to blame for conflicts. Today the main players are the USA, China, Russia, Germany, great Britain. It is in Europe's interest to maintain balance and not to quarrel with anyone. Not to provoke Russia. If there is a conflict and war, the aggressor will not be Russia. History shows that in the conflicts of Russia and other countries, the aggressor in 99% of cases were other countries. Russia was only defending himself.

[Mikula]

It's quite amusing to see people thinking of themselves that high. You folks were bargained for and sold on international political market.

Roughly at the time of Prague events France was considering leaving NATO and building closer ties with USSR. Obviously USSR was heavily involved into this development. If that was to happen it would've been a major blow to Western block in it's confrontation with East. So US and USSR made a deal: USSR halting all its political games in France, US do the same in Warsaw Pact countries.

And so they both did. Except USSR halted all activities in France, including covert operations. In fact it would've been quite easy for USSR to perform same scenario in France forcing US to invade it. But they didn't as they followed agreement too strictly. Meanwhile US was still meddling in Czechoslovakia fueling anti-Russian movements behind scenes. Have to give them that, they outplayed Soviet leaders brilliantly.

That's destiny of all small states. Being sold and forced to obey. You were never free. If you think you are free now you're idiots.

It is a problem of superpowers, that they consider a world as their checkboard, and be upset why the nations did not wish to be pawns in their games.
Do you really think that movements in Czechoslovakia and France in 1968 (in some points simillar, in many points different or opposite) were just puppet shows run by superpowers, Do you rreally think that French, Czech ans Slovak peoples have not their own will?

[Mikula]

History shows that in the conflicts of Russia and other countries, the aggressor in 99% of cases were other countries. Russia was only defending himself.
I advocated for Russsia several times but
99 percent is too high. At least Winter War against Finnland and 1968 invasion against Czechoslovakia were aggresions

[Mikula]

duplicate

[Mikula]

duplicate

[Mikula]

duplicate

[Mikula]

duplicate

[Mikula]

duplicate

[Ruggery]

Which invasion was worse for Czechoslovakia the Nazi or the Soviet?

[Mikula]

duplicate

[Mikula]

duplicate

[Mikula]

BTW: Has Russia/Sovjet Union ever (officially) apology happenings of 1968?

I dont remember oficial apologize, just one interview with Gorbachev for Czechoslovak TV, in 1990, I think.
I remember that he said something like that events of 1968 was very complex but there are cses what are inspirating for today - and Prague Spring is the case.

[Mikula]

LOL. I know that some Czech hockey fans supported Finland as Finns played against Russians. Still don't know ... those might have been exceptions.

Ice Hockey matches against USSR, in 1970s and 1980s hadpolitical influence for most of Czechoslovaks: For many people it survives until today. For me, personally, the matches lost this dimension with the end of the Cold War.

[Mikula]

Which invasion was worse for Czechoslovakia the Nazi or the Soviet?

Nazi

[Gold-Shekel]

Soviet "Invasion"... Don't you mean Soviet liberation from the anti-revolutionary forces?

[Mikula]

I am sorry for multiplying my replies - it is cosnequence of failure of this forum a couple hours ago

[Mikula]

Soviet "Invasion"... Don't you mean Soviet liberation from the anti-revolutionary forces?

Are you trolling?
There was not any political violence in 1968 before the invasion

[Not a Cop]

Well - it depends on personal experience. I personally heard to cry several Russian students (girls) "We have no clue we are so hated here, you are the most hateful people on the earth". I am just trying to be objective. It is very hard to speak for a whole nation.
In general - I would say Russians are not liked here, we absolutely hate when someone speaks to us in Russian and they think we will understand, don't need to mention about connecting us with Russians. On the other hand - our Russian immigrants are not problematic and it is a well known fact.

From my travelling expereince Slovaks were much likely to start speaking Slavic mishmash with me compared to Czech, who often made it look like they don't understand a word, even when i've used easiest pan-Slavic phrases, though that happened in Prague only, in smaller cities\villages they were happy to communicate.


It's quite amusing to see people thinking of themselves that high. You folks were bargained for and sold on international political market.

Roughly at the time of Prague events France was considering leaving NATO and building closer ties with USSR. Obviously USSR was heavily involved into this development. If that was to happen it would've been a major blow to Western block in it's confrontation with East. So US and USSR made a deal: USSR halting all its political games in France, US do the same in Warsaw Pact countries.

And so they both did. Except USSR halted all activities in France, including covert operations. In fact it would've been quite easy for USSR to perform same scenario in France forcing US to invade it. But they didn't as they followed agreement too strictly. Meanwhile US was still meddling in Czechoslovakia fueling anti-Russian movements behind scenes. Have to give them that, they outplayed Soviet leaders brilliantly.

That's destiny of all small states. Being sold and forced to obey. You were never free. If you think you are free now you're idiots.

Can you provide any sourses? I would like to read about that French stuff.

[Krivich]

Which invasion was worse for Czechoslovakia the Nazi or the Soviet?
The Nazis wanted to make Czech soap out of Czechs. The Soviet people wanted to make Communists out of Czechs. That's interesting. Which option would the Czechs prefer?

[Krivich]

Nazi
Excellent choice. Teuton washes his body with soap from Mikula
https://d.radikal.ru/d17/1808/01/01e35474e726.png (https://radikal.ru)

[Mikula]

Excellent choice. Teuton washes his body with soap from Mikula
https://d.radikal.ru/d17/1808/01/01e35474e726.png (https://radikal.ru)

Лыссый, ты опять здесъ?

[Krivich]

....

[Mikula]

Can you read? I wrote that Nazi occupation was worse than Soviet one, and therefore I dont understant your soap jokes about me.

[Krivich]

Can you read? I wrote that Nazi occupation was worse than Soviet one, and therefore I dont understant your soap jokes about me.
My English failed me, sorry

[Krivich]

....

[Magnolia]

Which invasion was worse for Czechoslovakia the Nazi or the Soviet?

Not a fair comparison at all. You can't isolate an occupation from the rest. WWII was an open war, a real tragedy for Europe.
Communism was a real tragedy for Europe too, but its crime are not so visible.

It is very easy to say Nazism was worse...
What was worse Holocaust or Holodomor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Communistic crimes are not "well known" or so visible - but it was a tragedy at least for half of Europe.


----
As for Czechoslovakia or better to say for the Czech part - we were betrayed during the 20th century at least twice.

1938: everybody was against us, we were a prosperous new country in the middle of Europe. Inhabitants cca: 6 millions of Czechs + 3 millions of Sudeten Germans ; we lived together for 800 years in one country. One day this happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement (was signed by the government leaders of Germany, France, the United Kingdom and Italy, but not Czechoslovakia, who were not invited to the conference) everybody was against Czechs include our people our Sudeten Germans - people who lived with us for 800 years, people who were mixed with us, etc.
We had some agreements with Western countries... they said, no we will not help you to fight against your enemies.
Our enemies at that time: Germany, Austria, Poland (the first country that attacked us in 1938), Hungary, and partially Slovakia (there existed strong anti-Czechs tendencies; that's why we were occupied and they were allies of Nazi Germany).

1945: Western and Eastern powers decided we would be a part of the Eastern Block: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potsdam_Conference

1968: we were not able to live from our past successes; even a liberal Czechoslovakian communists knew the country started lagging behind and we wanted changes. We were betrayed again by both East and West; "The Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia, officially known as Operation Danube, was a joint invasion of Czechoslovakia by five Warsaw Pact countries – the Soviet Union, Bulgaria, Hungary, East Germany and Poland – on the night of 20–21 August 1968.[16] Approximately 250,000[4] Warsaw pact troops attacked Czechoslovakia that night, with Romania and Albania refusing to participate." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact_invasion_of_Czechoslovakia
And Western countries said... "don't except we will help you, it is none of our business".

Both occupations were tragedies for our country.

[Kamal900]

Not a fair comparison at all. You can't isolate an occupation from the rest. WWII was an open war, a real tragedy for Europe.
Communism was a real tragedy for Europe too, but its crime are not so visible.

It is very easy to say Nazism was worse...
What was worse Holocaust or Holodomor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Communistic crimes are not "well known" or so visible - but it was a tragedy at least for half of Europe.


----
As for Czechoslovakia or better to say for the Czech part - we were betrayed during the 20th century at least twice.

1938: everybody was against us, we were a prosperous new country in the middle of Europe. Inhabitants cca: 6 millions of Czechs + 3 millions of Sudeten Germans ; we lived together for 800 years in one country. One day this happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement; everybody was against Czechs include our people our Sudeten Germans - people who lived with us for 800 years, people who were mixed with us, etc.
We had some agreements with Western countries... they said, no we will not help you to fight against your enemies.
Our enemies at that time: Germany, Austria, Poland (the first country that attacked us in 1938), Hungary, and partially Slovakia (there existed strong anti-Czechs tendencies; that's why we were occupied and they were allies of Nazi Germany.

1948: Western and Eastern powers decided we would be a part of the Eastern Block: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potsdam_Conference

1968: we were not able to live from our past successes; even a liberal Czechoslovakian communists knew the country started lagging behind and we wanted changes. We were betrayed again by both East and West; "The Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia, officially known as Operation Danube, was a joint invasion of Czechoslovakia by five Warsaw Pact countries – the Soviet Union, Bulgaria, Hungary, East Germany and Poland – on the night of 20–21 August 1968.[16] Approximately 250,000[4] Warsaw pact troops attacked Czechoslovakia that night, with Romania and Albania refusing to participate." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact_invasion_of_Czechoslovakia
And Western countries said... "don't except we will help you, it is none of our business".

Both occupations were tragedies for our country.

I'd say the holodomer was worst due on the fact that the instigators behind it were Jewish AKA Lazar Kegonovich.

[Magnolia]

From my travelling expereince Slovaks were much likely to start speaking Slavic mishmash with me compared to Czech, who often made it look like they don't understand a word, even when i've used easiest pan-Slavic phrases, though that happened in Prague only, in smaller cities\villages they were happy to communicate.


1. Slovaks are not Czechs, they were partially czechized, but they still have their own mentality, culture.
2. Hard to believe that people that people outside Prague were happy to communicate. It is the basic sign of our culture - we don't enjoy communication with unknown people (include Czechs), no need to mention foreigners, no need to mention Russians. Prague people are used to on foreigners unlike the rest of the country.
3. If you start speaking to us in Russian be sure that in our mind is something "how you can even dare to speak to me Ivan, how you can dare to think I will understand you Ivan, get out of me, get out of our country or I will kill you).
4. Nothing like basic pan-Slavic phrases exists.
5. Listen to this and try to guess who is he speaking about...
Start at 1:31

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI42iwlXgBA
https://youtu.be/jI42iwlXgBA?t=1m31s

[Ruggery]

Not a fair comparison at all. You can't isolate an occupation from the rest. WWII was an open war, a real tragedy for Europe.
Communism was a real tragedy for Europe too, but its crime are not so visible.

It is very easy to say Nazism was worse...
What was worse Holocaust or Holodomor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Communistic crimes are not "well known" or so visible - but it was a tragedy at least for half of Europe.


----
As for Czechoslovakia or better to say for the Czech part - we were betrayed during the 20th century at least twice.

1938: everybody was against us, we were a prosperous new country in the middle of Europe. Inhabitants cca: 6 millions of Czechs + 3 millions of Sudeten Germans ; we lived together for 800 years in one country. One day this happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement (was signed by the government leaders of Germany, France, the United Kingdom and Italy, but not Czechoslovakia, who were not invited to the conference) everybody was against Czechs include our people our Sudeten Germans - people who lived with us for 800 years, people who were mixed with us, etc.
We had some agreements with Western countries... they said, no we will not help you to fight against your enemies.
Our enemies at that time: Germany, Austria, Poland (the first country that attacked us in 1938), Hungary, and partially Slovakia (there existed strong anti-Czechs tendencies; that's why we were occupied and they were allies of Nazi Germany).

1945: Western and Eastern powers decided we would be a part of the Eastern Block: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potsdam_Conference

1968: we were not able to live from our past successes; even a liberal Czechoslovakian communists knew the country started lagging behind and we wanted changes. We were betrayed again by both East and West; "The Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia, officially known as Operation Danube, was a joint invasion of Czechoslovakia by five Warsaw Pact countries – the Soviet Union, Bulgaria, Hungary, East Germany and Poland – on the night of 20–21 August 1968.[16] Approximately 250,000[4] Warsaw pact troops attacked Czechoslovakia that night, with Romania and Albania refusing to participate." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact_invasion_of_Czechoslovakia
And Western countries said... "don't except we will help you, it is none of our business".

Both occupations were tragedies for our country.

The holocaust was worse for the Jews while it was the holodomor for the rest of the people.

[Rumata]

...
3. If you start speaking to us in Russian be sure that in our mind is something "how you can even dare to speak to me Ivan, how you can dare to think I will understand you Ivan, get out of me, get out of our country or I will kill you).
4. Nothing like basic pan-Slavic phrases exists.


:picard1:

[Rumata]

The holocaust was worse for the Jews while it was the holodomor for the rest of the people.

At one point nazi killed over half of Soviet POWs (total). And that wasn't a part of Holocaust. And it was only the very beginning of realization of their plans on Soviet people. Even an idiot can guess what would follow if the Victory were theirs.

[Magnolia]

:picard1:
Give me one reason why we should have a positive attitude to Russians.

[Krivich]

At one point nazi killed over half of Soviet POWs (total). And that wasn't a part of Holocaust. And it was only the very beginning of realization of their plans on Soviet people. Even an idiot can guess what would follow if the Victory were theirs.
I understand more and that the Russians are gods for many Europeans. Finnish Swedish, Magnolia, Danielion and other in us believe!

[Rumata]

Give me one reason why we should have a positive attitude to Russians.

Instead I give you the idea that between a positive attitude and a wish to kill there's a whole lot of other attitudes possible. I mean normal people, not some psychos.

[Not a Cop]

1. Slovaks are not Czechs, they were partially czechized, but they still have their own mentality, culture.
2. Hard to believe that people that people outside Prague were happy to communicate. It is the basic sign of our culture - we don't enjoy communication with unknown people (include Czechs), no need to mention foreigners, no need to mention Russians. Prague people are used to on foreigners unlike the rest of the country.
3. If you start speaking to us in Russian be sure that in our mind is something "how you can even dare to speak to me Ivan, how you can dare to think I will understand you Ivan, get out of me, get out of our country or I will kill you).
4. Nothing like basic pan-Slavic phrases exists.
5. Listen to this and try to guess who is he speaking about...
Start at 1:31

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI42iwlXgBA
https://youtu.be/jI42iwlXgBA?t=1m31s

Obviously i started conversation in English or asked people if they would preffer to speak Russian or English if i dealt with older generation.

As for Pan-Slavik phrases - often i asked "Gde mojno kupit benzin" would you say you can't understand what i meant?

[Rumata]

I understand more and that the Russians are gods for many Europeans. Finnish Swedish, Magnolia, Danielion and other in us believe!

Some people think Dani has a soft point for Slavic pussy, but I think he's a good guy :thumb001:

[Magnolia]

Instead I give you the idea that between a positive attitude and a wish to kill there's a whole lot of other attitudes possible. I mean normal people, not some psychos.

You should be able to differ between "words" and "acts"... not everything what is said is meant seriously and a true will to do it exists. But still words have a message....

[Rumata]

It looks like the league of Finnish Swede is getting bigger here. Maybe you should open a club.

[Magnolia]

Obviously i started conversation in English or asked people if they would preffer to speak Russian or English if i dealt with older generation.

As for Pan-Slavik phrases - often i asked "Gde mojno kupit benzin" would you say you can't understand what i meant?

To say "prefer" is not a right expression. They have no choice. They had to study Russian lang. at schools, so of course if they are asked like that of course they will chose Russian...

No I will not understand.

[Magnolia]

....

Could you give me an answer, why we should like Russians?

[Dandelion]

To say "prefer" is not a right expression. They don't have a choice. They had to study Russian lang. at schools, so of course if they will be asked if Russian is a better option for them, of course they will chose Russian...

No I will not understand.

True. It must be 'Kde mohu koupit benzín?' or you can't understand a word. Gibberish language makes one sound like a retard and Czech don't like it people who are mentally sane speak as if they've fallen flat on their face. Pan-Slavic is retard Slavic. Might as well have spoken Polish (advice to people planning to visit CzR, don't!)

[Peterski]

Might as well have spoken Polish (advice to people planning to visit CzR, don't!)

This part of Czech Republic is inhabited by Polish-speakers, and people SHOULD speak Polish when they visit it:


Map of Silesian Voivodeship showing the Polish-Czech border in 1938-1939 (you can zoom in):

https://polona.pl/item/wojewodztwo-slaskie-podzialka-1-400-000,MTM4ODcwOTc/0/#info:metadata

https://i.imgur.com/rnIOMSv.png

https://i.imgur.com/wsWpkRN.png

Here you can see the Olza river, Polish-inhabited area to the west of it is called Zaolzie in Polish:

https://i.imgur.com/CEHwOnJ.png

Zaolzie area annexed by Poland in 1938, had 200,000 ethnic Poles (almost 90% of population).

[Rumata]

Could you give me an answer, why we should like Russians?

You ask me a strange question. I'm fine as long as you don't make up your mind to assassinate me.

[Magnolia]

You ask me a strange question. I'm fine as long as you don't make up your mind to assassinate me.
You are safe. I don't have any hate against nations (it could be different if we were attacked by someone again). I find that foolish. Hate poisons first of all the hater.

It doesn't mean that we have a reason to like Russians or not to have negative associations connected with their lang, etc.

[Krivich]

You ask me a strange question. I'm fine as long as you don't make up your mind to assassinate me.
Do you take them seriously? This is the personal opinion of one Czech, one Finn and one Dutchman. We shouldn't hate them back. We have to look at them like Gods look at their children.

[Rumata]

You are safe. I don't have any hate against nations (it could be different if we were attacked by someone again). I find that foolish. Hate poisons first of all the hater.
Nice.


It doesn't mean that we have a reason to like Russians or not to have negative associations connected with their lang, etc.
So if I ever come to Chehia, I'll try to speak Serbian or Polish to locals.

[Magnolia]

Do you take them seriously? This is the personal opinion of one Czech, one Finn and one Dutchman. We shouldn't hate them back. We have to look at them like Gods look at their children.

lol I tried to be objective. probably you should go through the tread again... to call me hater is a strong word and not true at all.

Again, tell me why Czechs should like you?

[Profileid]

Why do euros love making every obscure dialect a "language"?

[Rumata]

Do you take them seriously? This is the personal opinion of one Czech, one Finn and one Dutchman. We shouldn't hate them back. We have to look at them like Gods look at their children.

I think this talk is funny.

[Rumata]

It doesn't mean that we have a reason to like Russians...

There's no reasons to like anyone because of ones nationality... One can be liked for personal traits though.

[Rumata]

Traitors of Chehia try to talk Russian:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk5p1JnKlK4

[Magnolia]

There's no reasons to like anyone because of ones nationality... One can be liked for personal traits though.
Do I really have to explain this to you?

Look at yourself, you seem to be butthurt a lot because I said we had no reason to like you. You keep trying to to ridicule us (Chehia) just because I said we had no reason to like you.
Maybe it is time for Russians to look at themselves. Why do you think you are not liked by many nations? What about your expansive policy; you have tried to "kill" many nations. You wanted to kill their culture, to control them... so yeah there are not many reasons to like you.

[Rumata]

Do I really have to explain this to you?

Look at yourself, you seem to be butthurt a lot because I said we had no reason to like you. You keep trying to to ridicule us (Chehia) just because I said we had no reason to like you.
Maybe it is time for Russians to look at themselves. Why do you think you are not liked by many nations? What about your expansive policy; you have tried to "kill" many nations. You wanted to kill their culture, to control them... so yeah there are not many reasons to like you.

No, no. As I've said there's no reason you should like me as a Russian but I'm sorry that you misunderstand me personally. Btw, somehow, I doubt your reasoning is close to that of an average Cheh girl (I'm sorry for my inability to remember your alphabet).

I'm looking forward for a new TA group.

[Magnolia]

No, no. As I've said there's no reason you should like me as a Russian but I'm sorry that you misunderstand me personally. Btw, somehow, I doubt your reasoning is close to that of an average Cheh girl (I'm sorry for my inability to remember your alphabet).

I'm looking forward for a new TA group.

So do you think an average Czech girl likes Russians? :lol: Why do you think that? Do you think Russians guys are considered as dreamy guys here?

[Mikula]

1. Slovaks are not Czechs, they were partially czechized, but they still have their own mentality, culture.
2. Hard to believe that people that people outside Prague were happy to communicate. It is the basic sign of our culture - we don't enjoy communication with unknown people (include Czechs), no need to mention foreigners, no need to mention Russians. Prague people are used to on foreigners unlike the rest of the country.
3. If you start speaking to us in Russian be sure that in our mind is something "how you can even dare to speak to me Ivan, how you can dare to think I will understand you Ivan, get out of me, get out of our country or I will kill you).
4. Nothing like basic pan-Slavic phrases exists.
5. Listen to this and try to guess who is he speaking about...
Start at 1:31

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI42iwlXgBA
https://youtu.be/jI42iwlXgBA?t=1m31s

I like to soeak with foreigners, in English, as well as in Russian or in German.
Perhaps I am not an average Czech for you, but I dont think that I am a rare exception

ad 4) Dobrý den, Dober dan, Dzeń dobry

[Magnolia]

I like to soeak with foreigners, in English, as well as in Russian or in German.
Perhaps I am not an average Czech for you, but I dont think that I am a rare exception

For me or for Janek Rubeš, have you seen the video? I share his opinion, so probably not so rare opinion...

ad 4. I don't understand.

Btw. have you met the Brazilian guy who visited the Czech R not long time ago? He spoke very bad about us... rude and unhelpful people... I wasn't able to explain him it is just an cultural trait, that Czech people are not so bad in core. Maybe you could try to explain him he didn't meet any Czech people and that the majority of Czech people is like you...

[Mikula]

For me or for Janek Rubeš, have you seen the video? I share his opinion, so probably not so rare opinion...

ad 4. I don't understand.

I know several videos of Janek Rubeš, some of ones I like but, some not.
And I dont know any reason why to be rude to foreign tourists - when i am a tourist in foreign country, I am glad when locals are kind to me, too.

4) Ale, no tak :)

[Krivich]

lol I tried to be objective. probably you should go through the tread again... to call me hater is a strong word and not true at all.

Again, tell me why Czechs should like you?
Among the Russians there are many people which I do not like. Among the Czechs there are no such people. Does this mean that I like Czechs more?
Before I reached this forum, I never thought about the Czechs. I was invited to visit Prague, but I still refuse, because I do not like this trip. The Czechs and the Czech Republic seem to me ordinary and not interesting. I do not want to visit Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria for the same reasons - it's not interesting.

I'm sure that you think a lot about the Russians, you are afraid of Russia, and you admire it. But I do not like being a god, because I'm just like you. I do not want to be constantly in the spotlight, I do not want us to fight someone who has invaded somewhere. I want to live in the same uninteresting and ordinary country as the Czech Republic. And that they allow us to live peacefully and treat us as people, and not as gods.

[Magnolia]

I know several videos of Janek Rubeš, some of ones I like but, some not.
And I dont know any reason why to be rude to foreign tourists - when i am a tourist in foreign country, I am glad when locals are kind to me, too.

4) Ale, no tak :)

Maybe you could try to understand that I want to be objective. I will not claim we are nice people when our reputation is different, no need to mention I know the Czech mentality.

5) To je postoj hodný králů, arogance plodí aroganci.

[Magnolia]

Among the Russians there are many people which I do not like. Among the Czechs there are no such people. Does this mean that I like Czechs more?
Before I reached this forum, I never thought about the Czechs. I was invited to visit Prague, but I still refuse, because I do not like this trip. The Czechs and the Czech Republic seem to me ordinary and not interesting. I do not want to visit Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria for the same reasons - it's not interesting.

I'm sure that you think a lot about the Russians, you are afraid of Russia, and you admire it. But I do not like being a god, because I'm just like you. I do not want to be constantly in the spotlight, I do not want us to fight someone who has invaded somewhere. I want to live in the same uninteresting and ordinary country as the Czech Republic. And that they allow us to live peacefully and treat us as people, and not as gods.

OK!

[Krivich]

So do you think an average Czech girl likes Russians? :lol: Why do you think that? Do you think Russians guys are considered as dreamy guys here?
Can I answer? I'm sure that Magnolia will love a Russian guy with pleasure. Provided that the Russian guy will like you and appearance and human qualities.

[Mikula]

Maybe you could try to understand that I want to be objective. I will not claim we are nice people when our reputation is different, no need to mention I know the Czech mentality.

5) To je postoj hodný králů, arogance plodí aroganci.

There are more warmer nations than Czechs, but hospitality is not unknown, here.
I know that we have different viewpoints to many things, our experieences, age and social contacts, are differents. I respect that and I wish to be objective, too.
But I think that we both live in the same country, though :)

[Magnolia]

There are more warmer nations than Czechs, but hospitality is not unknown, here.
I know that we have different viewpoints to many things, our experieences, age and social contacts, are differents. I respect that and I wish to be objective, too.
But I think that we both live in the same country, though :)

Feel free to share your opinion I have no issue with that.
Have you noticed that I mentioned that Brazilian guy from TA who visited the CzR not long time ago... really you should try to explain him, he didn't meet any Czech people when he was here and he is extremely wrong... imo you tend to judge people according to you a lot.

You are a very nice man, Mikula. You are something like an ambassador of the Czech culture on TA; you never say anything impolite about us, you like a real patriot wants to make us look great. It's nice of you, but sometimes you with your "nice attitude" you try to deny even things we are well known for. I really don't understand why you keep doing that. Nobody is perfect.

Last time when you disagreed with me - I said to someone "if Czechs gypsies are mixed, they are not mixed with us, they a relatively new community here, they live in their communities etc.) and you came with your typical attitude and started: "It's not true I know a Czech-Gypsy family from my village and they have been mixed since 60's" - hm. So let's make from that expectation the rule. One Gypsy family from 100000000000000000 is mixed - the conclusion: Czech gypsies are mixed with Czechs. And everything is like this with you.

[Magnolia]

https://www.czech-stuff.com/why-are-czechs-so-rude/
https://news.expats.cz/czech-culture/do-czechs-hate-foreigners-part-1/
https://news.expats.cz/czech-culture/do-czechs-hate-foreigners-part-2/
https://news.expats.cz/czech-culture/do-czechs-hate-foreigners-part-3/

I really hate to do this, Mikula. But you should open your eyes and stop projecting yourself into others.

[Mikula]

https://www.czech-stuff.com/why-are-czechs-so-rude/
https://news.expats.cz/czech-culture/do-czechs-hate-foreigners-part-1/
https://news.expats.cz/czech-culture/do-czechs-hate-foreigners-part-2/
https://news.expats.cz/czech-culture/do-czechs-hate-foreigners-part-3/

I really hate to do this, Mikula. But you should open your eyes and stop projecting yourself into others.

The comments under the articles are also of both sides - positive and negative ones - depends on personal experience.
Anyway, despite the fact that I live so far from Prague, I meet foreign tourists very often (thanks to my job)

[Jana]

I found Czechs in Prague really rude.
But so were we- drunken teens and loud. Now I look different at that

I think Czechs are more aloof and reserved in general kind of like Austrians, but not necessary rude.

My father lived in Prague from 1966-1979 every summer with one Czech family, that was very cultured and nice toward him, and for him Czechs are far from rude

So it depend on perspective. And people in service industry , if poorly paid and overwhelmed with noisy tourists, tend to be rude

I hope to visit Czechia again and get other view on people, this time with more respect of cultural uniqueness of every land

[Magnolia]

The comments under the articles are also of both sides - positive and negative ones - depends on personal experience.
Anyway, despite the fact that I live so far from Prague, I meet foreign tourists very often (thanks to my job)

Well - let's make a conclusion, you don't agree me when I am saying - Czechs have no reason to like Russians, when I was sharing a research where was said in 2004 more then 40% of Czechs had a very negative attitude towards Russians, plus when saying our Russian immigrants are not problematic? That's shortly what I said in this thread.

You don't agree me that when a Russian starts to speak to us in Russian language and they automatically think we can understand - it is considered as a sign of arrogance and Czechs really don't like it (that's what was said by Janek Rubeš in that video too...). Right?

I am not sure if you didn't make a hotheaded conclusion about opinions that I said in this thread.

[Magnolia]

I found Czechs in Prague really rude.
But so were we- drunken teens and loud. Now I look different at that

I think Czechs are more aloof and reserved in general kind of like Austrians, but not necessary rude.

My father lived in Prague from 1966-1979 every summer with one Czech family, that was very cultured and nice toward him, and for him Czechs are far from rude

So it depend on perspective. And people in service industry , if poorly paid and overwhelmed with noisy tourists, tend to be rude

I hope to visit Czechia again and get other view on people, this time with more respect of cultural uniqueness of every land

This is not a discussion about the Czech attitude to foreigners in general. This discussion is about the Czech attitude towards Russians.

Millions and millions tourists visit our country every year and most of them enjoy it despite they can find us rude people. It is not so simple; as a person who lives in Hungary you could understand us better. As far as I know Hungarians are not nice talkers either. They respect privacy as well as we do.

But back to us... in fact what some foreigners can find as rudeness is in our eyes politeness. It is taken as kind of rude and intrusive to sit down next to another person in public transport when it is empty and start talking to the person. We usually don't speak to each other on streets, why to speak to an unknown person when there is no reason for that; or smile to each other - why?. It is a cultural sign and I actually can't see it as a bad thing. It is our culture why we should change it because tourists are used to on something else. We have no reason to do that. On the other hand I really doubt that Czechs refuse to help tourists when they are lost... I do it normally.

The real personal contact with people is a totally different matter. Why not to be nice to people if you are in a closer contact, it makes no sense even to us. So of course if we are in a closer contact with foreigners we are nice to them (if the person is nice to us).

[Magnolia]

I went through comments down below the controversial video (according to some ta's users) and read this comment:


Сергей Плугатырюв
před 1 měsícem
One funny fact.In russian schools pupils are not told that czech republic was occupaid by USSR but that Zcech people wanted to be in and nobody forced them to do that!

2


SantomPh
SantomPh
před 1 týdnem
Сергей Плугатырюв while it was indeed forcibly occupied by the USSR there was a sizeable faction that wanted communism and helped the USSR

Could Russian members tell me if the Russian on yt was telling the truth?

[Finnish Swede]

I went through comments down below the controversial video (according to some ta's users) and read this comment:



Could Russian members tell me if the Russian on yt was telling the truth?

Njah ... very typical for Russians.

[Mikula]

BTW: Has Russia/Sovjet Union ever (officially) apology happenings of 1968?
I have found this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact_invasion_of_Czechoslovakia#Later_react ions_and_revisionism)