Montenegrins from Podgorica

[Pribislav]

Podgorica is capital of Montenegro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podgorica
https://scontent-sof1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/11703543_1113155488714434_4405688672793499126_o.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=8a676e66a418e32d3df9b6f8c8db584b&oe=5C0A8BEE
https://scontent-sof1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/11234006_1113163612046955_754409194451656650_o.jpg ?_nc_cat=0&oh=49e54b17f38804271ddd602ed6933b42&oe=5BF35CB9
https://scontent-sof1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/11692793_1113155475381102_4118867705819680713_n.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=7777544bb4f85b987b216fe7ac10a6ca&oe=5BF8EA39
https://scontent-sof1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/11212647_1113157172047599_6391208614246815949_o.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=1d6e2d381b7dfcfeaf1adb94e70af86b&oe=5BFCD519
https://scontent-sof1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/11026801_1113156518714331_6009421444212809597_o.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=d21ba9cf3b2563c2562a9c4200186650&oe=5C00064B
https://scontent.fbeg5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18491777_447375202281385_299246041881973635_o.jpg? _nc_cat=0&oh=f09801faf1a971315a1bd64afb41b9b5&oe=5B85065A
https://scontent.fbeg5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/1040325_583237372028500_7999091536064120813_o.jpg? _nc_cat=0&oh=28729f55f44b94403dff7577052b853e&oe=5BB6C286
https://mncmedia.ams3.digitaloceanspaces.com/2018/04/383586_279111132139864_83820272_n.jpg
https://rs.n1info.com/Picture/109325/jpeg/Tan2017-2-17_94951722_0.jpg
https://i1.wp.com/reprezentacija.me/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/milena-raicevic-pedja-radmila.jpg?fit=960%2C640
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DfJ9zADW0AA6Rmn.jpg
http://www.sraspopovic.com/podrucja%20rada/5.jpg
https://portalanalitika.me/storage/2017/03/13/thumbs/58c6a9be-cb00-4df8-b259-1f230a0a0a69-protest-majke-previewOrg.jpg
https://mncmedia.ams3.digitaloceanspaces.com/2018/04/12696_1386277494973466_846187011_n.jpg
https://mncmedia.ams3.digitaloceanspaces.com/2018/04/15356572_346684679039756_1647327938916527797_n-563x367.jpg
https://m.cdm.me/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Zajedno-1-1000x555.jpg
https://restaurant-alchemist.me/wp-content/uploads/restoran-alchemist-podgorica-21.jpg
https://m.cdm.me/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Zajedno-1-1000x555.jpg
https://mncmedia.ams3.digitaloceanspaces.com/2018/04/15181249_335542110154013_3693296446018015245_n-563x367.jpg
http://markomilacic.me/img/Vijesti/prava_crna_gora_predaje_liste_za_podgoricu_2018-04-30_01_b.jpg
http://www.pfkotor.me/uploads/Masinska%205.jpg
http://www.sraspopovic.com/images/Odlicni%20ucenici%202011%20sajt/11.jpg
http://www.sraspopovic.com/images/nagrade%202009%20za%20sajt/odlicni%20ucenici%205.jpg
http://www.sraspopovic.com/images/nagrade%202009%20za%20sajt/odlicni%20ucenici%202.JPG

[CommonSense]

Mostly Pontids and Dinarids, but an Alpine element is present too. Very, very little northern influence. They look like Southeastern Serbs, just taller.

[Dick]

Mostly Pontids and Dinarids, but an Alpine element is present too. Very, very little northern influence. They look like Southeastern Serbs, just taller.

they dont look tall to me

[Tauromachos]

Some look similar to Greeks, maybe more than in the other Serbian sets Pribi has posted,and then there are a couple
of other types in these photos who don't pass as Greeks

[Pribislav]

Some look similar to Greeks, maybe more than in the other Serbian sets Pribi has posted,and then there are a couple
of other types in these photos who don't pass as Greeks

I also think that quite more of these people could pass in Greece than people from photos on the threads about Serbs from Banija and Western Serbia.
Podgorica is in southeastern Montenegro near border with Albania. Podgorica has a Med climate, and it's probably the hottest city in whole Ballkans in the summer.
People from northern Montenegro are lighter on average than people from Podgorica and coastal Montenegro where Med influence is pretty common for south Slavic standards.

[Aspar]

First thing that strikes me are the long faces of the people, especially the women.
Mostly Dinarids, many of the men look Albanian with their broad foreheads and triangle faces but most of them look like Serbs.
CM element is strong in many of them.
Some are Pontids with slight Dinarid strains like the guy's on the third picture and can pass in southern Balkans without a problem, where can be found a lot of those types...

[Dukagjini]

Montenegrins look south slavic, just more distinct to other south-slavic groups, i wonder how they score autosomally...i'm sure it would be on par with serbs, but with more native dna.

[Pribislav]

Montenegrins look south slavic, just more distinct to other south-slavic groups, i wonder how they score autosomally...i'm sure it would be on par with serbs, but with more native dna.

Autosomally Montenegrins shifted more southern than Serbs, but still closer to Serbs than to Albanians. They are closer to Fyromians than to Serbs autosomally on average.

[Kivan]

Mainly Dinarids/Norids and Gorids/Alpines + some Pontids and Atlanto-Meds.

[Crn Volk]

They'd fit easily in any West Balkan state. Typical Balkan phenotypes already mentioned above.

[Pribislav]

They'd fit easily in any West Balkan state.

What about Macedonia?

[Crn Volk]

What about Macedonia?

Yes, Macedonia is a West Balkan state.

[Pribislav]

Yes, Macedonia is a West Balkan state.

Yes, if we considered West Balkans = Ex Yugoslavia.

Geographically Macedonia is more central Balkans, and Serbia also.
"Western Balkans" is political term created on the west for countries of former Yugoslavia. Even Balkans is political creation from 19th century and not geographical category, but that is a long story.

[Niko23]

Some people from the nightclub are foreigners. They doesn't look native.

[Moje ime]

Some people from the nightclub are foreigners. They doesn't look native.

Yes. Nightclubs from big cities are never representative of local population. Only small towns and villages.

[Niko23]

.....

[Niko23]

Girls look East Slavic the guy looks Caucasian.
https://scontent-sof1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/11212647_1113157172047599_6391208614246815949_o.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=1d6e2d381b7dfcfeaf1adb94e70af86b&oe=5BFCD519
The guy and the girl on the right look foreigners.
https://scontent.fbeg5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18491777_447375202281385_299246041881973635_o.jpg? _nc_cat=0&oh=f09801faf1a971315a1bd64afb41b9b5&oe=5B85065A
The girl on the left looks foreigner.
https://mncmedia.ams3.digitaloceanspaces.com/2018/04/383586_279111132139864_83820272_n.jpg

[Pribislav]

Girls look East Slavic the guy looks Caucasian.
https://scontent-sof1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/11212647_1113157172047599_6391208614246815949_o.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=1d6e2d381b7dfcfeaf1adb94e70af86b&oe=5BFCD519

Guy could pass as Albanian easy, and I agree for Caucasian look.

[Seya]

Most of them can pass here

[Vojnik]

Yeah, easy in Macedonia. We do have similar DNA to them after all.

[Pribislav]

Most of them can pass here

Some Montenegrins which deny every conection with Serbs claim that they are mix of Vlachs and Albanians. Other Montenegrins which are anti-Serbian oriented claim that they are branch of Croatians.
Among Albanians is widespread opinion that Montenegrins are slavized/serbized Albanians. Some Montenegrin tribes have a legend about same origin with northern Albanian (Malësor) tribes, but genetic has rejected most of that legends.

[Seya]

Some Montenegrins which deny every conection with Serbs claim that they are mix of Vlachs and Albanians. Other Montenegrins which are anti-Serbian oriented claim that they are branch of Croatians.
Among Albanians is widespread opinion that Montenegrins are slavized/serbized Albanians. Some Montenegrin tribes have a legend about same origin with northern Albanian (Malësor) tribes, but genetic has rejected most of that legends.

what i can tell u, from what i've seen, is that Serbs and Croatians don't look Romanians while Montenegrin definitely do.

[Pribislav]

what i can tell u, from what i've seen, is that Serbs and Croatians don't look Romanians while Montenegrin definitely do.

In Montenegro paleo-Balkanic input is higher than in Serbia and Croatia, due to these tribes which were probably Latin speakers before slavization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukumiri
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Španje
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I guess Bosnia among all others.

[Kelmendasi]

Guy could pass as Albanian easy, and I agree for Caucasian look.
He doesn't look that Albanian to me.

[Kelmendasi]

In Montenegro paleo-Balkanic input is higher than in Serbia and Croatia, due to these tribes which were probably Latin speakers before slavization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukumiri
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Španje
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge
Bukumiri seem to have been Albanian in origin, iirc they scored Albanian haplogroups and have an oral tradition which places their ancestry in northern Albania.

[Kelmendasi]

Some Montenegrins which deny every conection with Serbs claim that they are mix of Vlachs and Albanians. Other Montenegrins which are anti-Serbian oriented claim that they are branch of Croatians.
Among Albanians is widespread opinion that Montenegrins are slavized/serbized Albanians. Some Montenegrin tribes have a legend about same origin with northern Albanian (Malësor) tribes, but genetic has rejected most of that legends.
Certain clans like Kuqi, Bjelopavlici/Palbardhi, part of Piperi and Bukumiri seem to have Albanian origin based on oral traditions and genetics

[Hulu]

He doesn't look that Albanian to me.

He looks very much yugoslav, those narrow set eyes and face structure. This Pribislav is a troll.

[Tauromachos]

Autosomally Montenegrins shifted more southern than Serbs, but still closer to Serbs than to Albanians. They are closer to Fyromians than to Serbs autosomally on average.

Your opinion on these two women?

Do they pass among them?
In particular the one on the left hand side with blond hair and blue eyes?
https://scontent.fbed1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/13528102_1285071764858784_5617728047182042918_o.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=effa1dd38a23b2845c2623e57c70fb8c&oe=5BFE3B28

[Pribislav]

Your opinion on these two women?

Do they pass among them?
In particular the one on the left hand side with blond hair and blue eyes?
https://scontent.fbed1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/13528102_1285071764858784_5617728047182042918_o.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=effa1dd38a23b2845c2623e57c70fb8c&oe=5BFE3B28

Girl right could fit better.

[Pribislav]

Certain clans like Kuqi, Bjelopavlici/Palbardhi, part of Piperi and Bukumiri seem to have Albanian origin based on oral traditions and genetics

Kuči and Bjelopavlići are E-V13. Piperi are I2-PH908.
Bukumiri does not exist today. They are assimilated by other Montenegrin tribes 500 years ago and nobody know their haplogroup. Same happened with Mataruge, Španje and Kriči. Only for Kriči is discovered haplogroup, it's J2b1-M205.

[Kelmendasi]

Kuči and Bjelopavlići are E-V13. Piperi are I2-PH908.
Bukumiri does not exist today. They are assimilated by other Montenegrin tribes 500 years ago and nobody know their haplogroup. Same happened with Mataruge, Španje and Kriči. Only for Kriči is discovered haplogroup, it's J2b1-M205.
A branch of Piperi belong to R1b-BY611 and another branch are J2b2. The Kuqi E-V13 is the same as that among the Trieshi and Berisha e Kuqe. There have been Bukumiri who are tested and they are E-V13>Z16988, it's on Poreklo.

[Pribislav]

A branch of Piperi belong to R1b-BY611 and another branch are J2b2. The Kuqi E-V13 is the same as that among the Trieshi and Berisha e Kuqe. There have been Bukumiri who are tested and they are E-V13>Z16988, it's on Poreklo.

From what I know Piperi are I2-PH908, or predominantly I2-PH908. Ask user The Devil's Advocate, he know much about genetic of Montenegrin tribes. Legend about brothers Pipo, Vaso, Hoto and Ozro as founders of Montenegrin Piperi, Vasojevići, Ozrinići and Albanian Hoti is not supported by genetic. Vasojevići are E-V13, Ozrinići are I2-PH908, and Hoti are J2b2 (?). Vasojevići cluster of E-V13 is far 4000 years from Albanian clans who are E-V13.

Kuči probably have R1a in minority. Majority is E-V13.

[Kelmendasi]

From what I know Piperi are I2-PH908, or predominantly I2-PH908. Ask user The Devil's Advocate, he know much about genetic of Montenegrin tribes. Legend about brothers Pipo, Vaso, Hoto and Ozro as founders of Montenegrin Piperi, Vasojevići, Ozrinići and Albanian Hoti is support by genetic. Vasojevići are E-V13, Ozrinići are I2-PH908, and Hoti are J2b2 (?). Vasojevići cluster of E-V13 is far 4000 years from Albanian clans who are E-V13.

Kuči probably have R1a in minority. Majority is E-V13.
They are dominantly I2a-PH908 but those two branches that I am talking about aren't, the BY611 branch are definitely Albanian in origin whilst idk about the J2b2 branch as I need to see their subclade. The Albanian oral story says that Vasojevici come from Vas Keqi who was the son of Keqi whilst Piperi come from Piper Keqi, the ancestor of Hoti was Lazar Keqi. Kuqi have a small branch that are R1a but they descend from the natives of the area before the Ndreka/Drekali came into the area

[Jackson78]

Kuči and Bjelopavlići are E-V13. Piperi are I2-PH908.
Bukumiri does not exist today. They are assimilated by other Montenegrin tribes 500 years ago and nobody know their haplogroup. Same happened with Mataruge, Španje and Kriči. Only for Kriči is discovered haplogroup, it's J2b1-M205.

Piperi are R1b-BY611 (very probably most of the tribe, and that families definitely have distant Albanian origin). Only some families in tribe are maybe not R1b-BY611, like Božovići, Vukotići and "Ravnolažani" from Stijena (maybe I2-CTS10228>Z17855>A16413), and Lješevići, also from Stijena (maybe I2-PH908).

Bukumiri haplogroup was probably G2a-L497 or J2b2.

[Kelmendasi]

Piperi are R1b-BY611 (very probably mostly families in tribe, and that families definitely have distant Albanian origin). Only some families in tribe are maybe not R1b-BY611, like Božovići, Vukotići and "Ravnolažani" (maybe I2-CTS10228>Z17855>A16413), and Lješevići from Stijena (maybe I2-PH908).

Bukumiri haplogroup was probably G2a-L497 or J2b2.
"E-V13>Z1057>CTS5856>BY3380>Z5017>Z5016>Y3762>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z16988

Bukumiri su starosedelački rod iz Bratonožića. Smatra se da su albanskog porekla jer se u povelji Balše III Stracimirovića iz 1411. godine spominju Nika Bukumjera i njegov sin Đon. Bukumiri su u tom periodu bili pleme na prostoru današnjeg plemena Bratonožići sa katunima koji su se prostirali i na severnom delu plemenske teritorije Kuča. Od Bukumira su u Bratonožićima ostali jedino Lalovići (Ljaljovići), a od njih su prema predanju Femići iz Femića Krša kod Berana i islamizirani Ljaljevići kod Bijelog Polja. Međutim, za Ljaljeviće je utvrđeno da pripadaju rodu Kuča na osnovu čega se to predanje može odbaciti. Do sada je jedino testiran pripadnik bratstva Uzunović koje je prema predanju ogranak Femića na osnovu čega se pretpostavlja da Bukumiri pripadaju E-Z16988 grani. Od iseljenih Bukumira su još i Kneževići iz Budimlje u Vasojevićima. Bojovići koji se dele na nekoliko bratstava iz Bihora i Rožajske oblasti takođe smatraju da su poreklom Bukumiri, ali za njih je ustanovljeno da pripadaju J2b haplogrupi. Svi pravoslavni Bukumiri slave Nikoljdan sem Kneževića koji slave Vasiljevdan." https://www.poreklo.rs/2017/11/19/rodovi-starobalkanskog-porekla-u-crnoj-gori/?lang=lat

[Jackson78]

"E-V13>Z1057>CTS5856>BY3380>Z5017>Z5016>Y3762>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z16988

Bukumiri su starosedelački rod iz Bratonožića. Smatra se da su albanskog porekla jer se u povelji Balše III Stracimirovića iz 1411. godine spominju Nika Bukumjera i njegov sin Đon. Bukumiri su u tom periodu bili pleme na prostoru današnjeg plemena Bratonožići sa katunima koji su se prostirali i na severnom delu plemenske teritorije Kuča. Od Bukumira su u Bratonožićima ostali jedino Lalovići (Ljaljovići), a od njih su prema predanju Femići iz Femića Krša kod Berana i islamizirani Ljaljevići kod Bijelog Polja. Međutim, za Ljaljeviće je utvrđeno da pripadaju rodu Kuča na osnovu čega se to predanje može odbaciti. Do sada je jedino testiran pripadnik bratstva Uzunović koje je prema predanju ogranak Femića na osnovu čega se pretpostavlja da Bukumiri pripadaju E-Z16988 grani. Od iseljenih Bukumira su još i Kneževići iz Budimlje u Vasojevićima. Bojovići koji se dele na nekoliko bratstava iz Bihora i Rožajske oblasti takođe smatraju da su poreklom Bukumiri, ali za njih je ustanovljeno da pripadaju J2b haplogrupi. Svi pravoslavni Bukumiri slave Nikoljdan sem Kneževića koji slave Vasiljevdan." https://www.poreklo.rs/2017/11/19/rodovi-starobalkanskog-porekla-u-crnoj-gori/?lang=lat

That is very unlikely.

[Kelmendasi]

That is very unlikely.
Who were tested then? Their origin still does seem to be Albanian or perhaps partly Albanian going by the name

[Jackson78]

Who were tested then? Their origin still does seem to be Albanian or perhaps partly Albanian going by the name

Family who probably don't have anything with Bukumiri.

Albanian origin of Bukumiri is not that certain if they were G2a-L497.

[Kelmendasi]

Family who probably don't have anything with Bukumiri.

Albanian origin of Bukumiri is not certain if they were G2a-L497.
People from Rozaje who consider themselves to be Bukumiri seem to be J2b, is this J2b2? The word "Bukumiri" probably comes from Albanian as well as Bukemire being a place in Malesi e madhe, Albania.

[Jackson78]

People from Rozaje who consider themselves to be Bukumiri seem to be J2b, is this J2b2? The word "Bukumiri" probably comes from Albanian as well as Bukemire being a place in Malesi e madhe, Albania.

I know for that families from Rozaje, that is why i said that Bukumiri tribe might belonged to J2b2.

Words and terminology are not a good sign for tracing paternal ancestry of some tribes. For example, "Ljesnjani" from Ljesanska Nahija are, according to their oral tradion, of distant paternal ancestry from city of Lezhë (and their name "Ljesnjani" and name of tribe "Ljesanska Nahija" are connected to the name of that city) in Albania, but they are I2-CTS10228. Same with "Gornjaci" from Ceklin. Their paternal ancestor had a name "Leka Kelmend", but they are I2-CTS10228>Z17855.

[Dukagjini]

Some Montenegrins which deny every conection with Serbs claim that they are mix of Vlachs and Albanians. Other Montenegrins which are anti-Serbian oriented claim that they are branch of Croatians.
Among Albanians is widespread opinion that Montenegrins are slavized/serbized Albanians. Some Montenegrin tribes have a legend about same origin with northern Albanian (Malësor) tribes, but genetic has rejected most of that legends.

many montenegrin tribes get y-dna like e1b so this could indicate that many came from albanian tribes but were subsequently slavicized, ex. bjelopavlici (palabardhi)

[Kelmendasi]

I know for that families, that is why i said that Bukumiri tribe might belonged to J2b2.

Words and terminology are not a good sign for tracing ancestry of some tribes. For example, "Lješnjani" from Lješanska Nahija are, according to their oral tradion, of distant paternal ancestry from city of Lezhë in Albania, but they are I2-CTS10228. Same with "Gornjaci" from Ceklin. Their paternal ancestor had a name "Leka Kelmend", but they are I2-CTS10228>Z17855.
Yes I do agree that etymology isn't always accurate. Interestingly, Leka Kelmendi is considered to have migrated to Piperi and we believe that he or Albanians from his branch of Kelmend are the reason for BY611 in Piperi, also the Muriqi of Kelmendi supposedly come from him and are also BY611. Idk if this Leka is the same as the Leka which the Gornjaci believe that they come from

[Jackson78]

Yes I do agree that etymology isn't always accurate. Interestingly, Leka Kelmendi is considered to have migrated to Piperi and we believe that he or Albanians from his branch of Kelmend are the reason for BY611 in Piperi, also the Muriqi of Kelmendi supposedly come from him and are also BY611. Idk if this Leka is the same as the Leka which the Gornjaci believe that they come from

It is interesting that "Donjaci" from Ceklin are R1b-BY611. According to oral tradion, "Leka Kelmend" was stepfather to their ancestor Vukosav.

[Kelmendasi]

It is interesting that "Donjaci" from Ceklin are R1b-BY611. According to oral tradion, "Leka Kelmend" was stepfather to their ancestor Vukosav.
If he was a stepfather then he wouldn't have been blood-related, unless he actually was and they just didn't know.

[Jackson78]

If he was a stepfather then he wouldn't have been blood-related, unless he actually was and they just didn't know.

They were not blood-related, but it is still interesting.

My opinion is that Gornjaci are from Leka. In Kelmendi tribe, his descendants according to oral tradion are Gjonaj and Vrata brotherhoods. It would be interesting to see their results, maybe they are also I2-CTS10228>Z17855.

[Kelmendasi]

They were not blood-related, but it is interesting.

My opinion is that Gornjaci are from Leka. In Kelmendi tribe, his descendants according to oral tradion are Gjonaj and Vrata brotherhoods. It would be interesting to see their results, maybe they are also I2-CTS10228>Z17855.
The Gjonaj and Vrataj are from Selce, the brotherhood of Selca are all E-V13>Z16988>"Kelmendi cluster" so far. Only the Muriqi and Nikci brotherhoods aren't E-V13. I doubt that the Gornjaci are from Kelmendi originally, nobody from Kelmend has tested as I2a-CTS10228 same goes for everyone in the area including people from Kastrat and Hoti.

[Jackson78]

The Gjonaj and Vrataj are from Selce, the brotherhood of Selca are all E-V13>Z16988>"Kelmendi cluster" so far. Only the Muriqi and Nikci brotherhoods aren't E-V13. I doubt that the Gornjaci are from Kelmendi originally, nobody from Kelmend has tested as I2a-CTS10228 same goes for everyone in the area including people from Kastrat and Hoti.

But are Gjonaj and Vrataj tested? If they are not tested, the oral tradiotion is stil not excluded.

[Kelmendasi]

But are Gjonaj and Vrataj tested? If they are not tested, the oral tradiotion is stil not excluded.
Nah Gjonaj nor Vrataj are tested, still though the Muriqi who supposedly are from Leka are BY611

[Jackson78]

Nah Gjonaj nor Vrataj are tested, still though the Muriqi who supposedly are from Leka are BY611

I'm not sure that Muriqi are from Leka according to oral tradition, i'm only sure for Gjonaj and Vrataj. I'l must chech that.

[Kelmendasi]

I'm not sure that Muriqi are from Leka according to oral tradition, i'm only sure for Gjonaj and Vrataj. I'l must chech that.
The Muriqi themselves don't have oral tradition from Leka, that was my mistake. A branch of Piperi that are BY611 claim that they stem from Leka. We believe that the Muriqi are from Leka as they probably come from Muriq in Vukel and Leka is said to have lived in Vukel before coming to Selce and then Piper, and the Muriqi are BY611 just like the branch of Piper which claim to be from Leka

[Jackson78]

The Muriqi themselves don't have oral tradition from Leka, that was my mistake. A branch of Piperi that are BY611 claim that they stem from Leka. We believe that the Muriqi are from Leka as they probably come from Muriq in Vukel and Leka is said to have lived in Vukel before coming to Selce and then Piper, and the Muriqi are BY611 just like the branch of Piper which claim to be from Leka

Piperi do not have oral tradition about descending from Leka Kelmend. Their most distant paternal ancestor according to their oral tradition was named "Pipo" (or that was his nickname). In the some parts of Gornjaci oral tradition, Leka lived in Piperi for some time, but he was not blood-related to the ancestors of today's R1b-BY611 families in Piperi. And Gornjaci and Piperi genetics (different haplogroups) seems to proves that oral tradition. "Donjaci" ancestor Vukosav was probably related to R1b-BY611 families in Piperi.

[Kelmendasi]

Piperi do not have oral tradition about descending from Leka Kelmend. Their most distant paternal ancestor according to their oral tradition was named "Pipo" (or that was his nickname). In the some parts of Gornjaci oral tradition, Leka lived in Piperi for some time, but he was not blood-related to the ancestors of today's R1b-BY611 families in Piperi.
I was told that a certain family did claim origin from Leka, i'll check again if this is correct. The Pipo/Piper Keqi origin of Piperi seems unlikely to me as the Hoti are J2b2 as well as the Vasojevici being E-V13

[Jackson78]

I was told that a certain family did claim origin from Leka, i'll check again if this is correct. The Pipo/Piper Keqi origin of Piperi seems unlikely to me as the Hoti are J2b2 as well as the Vasojevici being E-V13

The oral tradition about paternal relations between these tribes are definitely not true, but that does not exclude that ancestor of Piperi R1b-BY611 families was named Pipo.

[Kelmendasi]

The oral tradition about paternal relations between these tribes are definitely not true, but that does not exclude that ancestor of Piperi R1b-BY611 families was named Pipo.
Yh that's true, I just meant that this Pipo wasn't the brother of Vaso, Lazar, Ban etc

[Columella]

Dinarics/Norics with a good Alpine and Baltic/Neo Danubian element.
Quite close to Croats (I’m there now) but there are regional differences that locals can notice more than foreigners.
(Especially the pic of middle aged women in a protest, they have a peculiar look)

[Pribislav]

Averages k12b dodecad for Serbs from Serbia (first column - Срби СРБ), Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia (second column - Срб Пречани *), and Montenegrins (third column - Црногорци)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dOI6R1BO15I/VK2NJfWYUZI/AAAAAAAAAEg/Pw_TJE6g-b0/w1513-h153-no/SrbiSrbi%2B07.01.2015.jpg

These averages are from 2015.

[Tschaikisten]

Outdated statistic long time ago.

[Pribislav]

Outdated statistic long time ago.

I know, because of that I said that is from 2015.

North Euro in reality is higher among Serbs from Serbia and Serbs from Bosnia/Croatia on average, I'm not sure for Montenegrins.

[Tschaikisten]

I know, because of that I said that is from 2015.

North Euro in reality higher among Serbs from Serbia and Bosnia/Croatia, not sure for Montenegrins.

Currently NE is around 40% for all Serbs. For non-Serbian Serbs on average it's higher, for Serbian Serbs on average it's lower. Of course that some Serbian Serb can score more than Serbs from Bosnia or Croatia.

[Pribislav]

Currently NE is around 40% for all Serbs. For non-Serbian Serbs on average it's higher, for Serbian Serbs on average it's lower. Of course that some Serbian Serb can score more than Serbs from Bosnia or Croatia.

Yes, all Serbs on average are around 40%, That is real.

Western Serbs (Serbs from Bosnia/Croatia) are probably around 42% on average. There is no any result of Serbs from Kordun and Banija from what I know, and they are probably most northern shifted Serbs on average (especially Banija Serbs).

[Dick]

Currently NE is around 40% for all Serbs. For non-Serbian Serbs on average it's higher, for Serbian Serbs on average it's lower. Of course that some Serbian Serb can score more than Serbs from Bosnia or Croatia.

We cant all be the same or we'd be inbreds

[Tschaikisten]

There is no any result of Serbs from Kordun and Banija from what I know, and they are probably most northern shifted Serbs on average (especially Banija Serbs).

There are, and they are same to the other ''Prečani'' Serbs. With some southern and northern shifted outliers.

[Pribislav]

There are, and they are same to the other ''Prečani'' Serbs. With some southern and northern shifted outliers.

Do you have result of some Serb from Kordun or Banija?

[Tschaikisten]

Do you have result of some Serb from Kordun or Banija?

For example this one from Kordun.

# Population Percent
1 North_European 41.54
2 Atlantic_Med 25.01
3 Caucasus 22.45
4 Southwest_Asian 6.06
5 Gedrosia 4.41
6 East_Asian 0.41
7 Southeast_Asian 0.11

[Bosniensis]

For example this one from Kordun.

# Population Percent
1 North_European 41.54
2 Atlantic_Med 25.01
3 Caucasus 22.45
4 Southwest_Asian 6.06
5 Gedrosia 4.41
6 East_Asian 0.41
7 Southeast_Asian 0.11

which gedmatch test is that? Eurogenes K15?

[Pribislav]

which gedmatch test is that? Eurogenes K15?

K12b dodecad.

[Bosniensis]

For example this one from Kordun.

# Population Percent
1 North_European 41.54
2 Atlantic_Med 25.01
3 Caucasus 22.45
4 Southwest_Asian 6.06
5 Gedrosia 4.41
6 East_Asian 0.41
7 Southeast_Asian 0.11

My family is from Kordun as well:

1 North_European 39.73
2 Atlantic_Med 27.23
3 Caucasus 19.41
4 Gedrosia 6.07
5 Southwest_Asian 4.8
6 Northwest_African 1.27
7 Southeast_Asian 0.68
8 South_Asian 0.53
9 East_Asian 0.28

[Pribislav]

My family is from Kordun as well:

1 North_European 39.73
2 Atlantic_Med 27.23
3 Caucasus 19.41
4 Gedrosia 6.07
5 Southwest_Asian 4.8
6 Northwest_African 1.27
7 Southeast_Asian 0.68
8 South_Asian 0.53
9 East_Asian 0.28

You are Muslim Kordunaš, and guy whose result Tschaikisten put is Orthodox Kordunaš.
Both of you are Serbs anyway. :)

[Tschaikisten]

Serb from Kordun whose I result posted is G-L497>YSC33.

[Pribislav]

Serb from Kordun whose I result posted is G-L497>YSC33.

Do you have result of some Banija Serb?
On Poreklo I have seen claim of few members that they could be most northern shifted Serbs on average.

Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia (Krajina) shifted more northern on average than Vojvodinian Serbs (I have seen few native Vojvodinan results and they are about 38% NE). Do you think that this is connected with the fact that native Vojvodinian Serbs mostly originated from Kosovo, southern Serbia and northern Macedonia and in that regions paleo-Balkanic element was stronger than in Herzegovina from where mostly originated Bosnian and Krajina Serbs?

[Tschaikisten]

Do you have result of some Banija Serb?
On Poreklo I have seen claim of few members that they could be most northern shifted Serbs on average.

Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia (Krajina) shifted more northern on average than Vojvodinian Serbs (I have seen few native Vojvodinan results and they are about 38% NE). Do you think that this is connected with the fact that native Vojvodinian Serbs mostly originated from Kosovo, southern Serbia and northern Macedonia and in that regions paleo-Balkanic element was stronger than in Herzegovina from where mostly originated Bosnian and Krajina Serbs?

Could be, but without serious scientific study about that we can not be sure. It's still only forums theory.

[Dick]

a friend that tested; Father from Zajecar and mother from Leskovac. regions arent set in stone regarding autosmal


# Population Percent
1 North_European 41.52
2 Atlantic_Med 27.42
3 Caucasus 22.2
4 Southwest_Asian 4.53
5 Gedrosia 3.83
6 East_Asian 0.5

[Pribislav]

a friend that tested; Father from Zajecar and mother from Leskovac. regions arent set in stone regarding autosmal


# Population Percent
1 North_European 41.52
2 Atlantic_Med 27.42
3 Caucasus 22.2
4 Southwest_Asian 4.53
5 Gedrosia 3.83
6 East_Asian 0.5

Almost same as guy from Kordun whose result Tschaikisten put.

[Dick]

Almost same as guy from Kordun whose result Tschaikisten put.

He is not sure if his paternal side always lived in Zajecar. His mother's family always lived in Leskovac. He is I1 and HV2 mtdna

[Pribislav]

He is not sure if his paternal side always lived in Zajecar. His mother's family always lived in Leskovac. He is I1 and HV2 mtdna

Which branch of I1 is he?

[Coolguy1]

Does anyone have any Montenegrin K12b results?

[Dick]

Which branch of I1 is he?

Don't know. We assume Z63. He did 23andme. It only shows I-M253. If he was L22(or P109) then it would show that.

[Pribislav]

Does anyone have any Montenegrin K12b results?

K12b of one Montenegrin.

North_European - 36,78
Atlantic_Med - 26,37
Caucasus - 24,33
Southwest_Asian - 6,96
Gedrosia - 5,09
East_Asian - 0,28
Southeast_Asian - 0,19

[Coolguy1]

K12b of one Montenegrin.

North_European - 36,78
Atlantic_Med - 26,37
Caucasus - 24,33
Southwest_Asian - 6,96
Gedrosia - 5,09
East_Asian - 0,28
Southeast_Asian - 0,19

[1] "distance%=2.3851 / distance=0.023851"

Montenegrin1

Albanian_North (N=6) 70.3
Belorussian (N=3) 29.6

[Arborean]

Guy could pass as Albanian easy, and I agree for Caucasian look.

Sorry but that looks like Bosniensis doppelgänger. Lmao

[Pribislav]

Sorry but that looks like Bosniensis doppelgänger. Lmao

Bosniensis is quarter Albanian. :)

[kleenex]

Albania, Serbia and Greece.

[Tauromachos]

Albania, Serbia and Greece.

To an extend imo because there are people in these photos who look atypical or don't pass in Greece

Overall the women in these pictures look more Greek than the men imo

[Pribislav]

To an extend imo because there are people in these photos who look atypical or don't pass in Greece

Overall the women in these pictures look more Greek than the men imo

Montenegrin girls also from Podgorica - whether they look Greek?
http://www.sraspopovic.com/images/Odlicni%20ucenici%202011%20sajt/16.jpg

[Tauromachos]

Montenegrin girls also from Podgorica - whether they look Greek?
http://www.sraspopovic.com/images/Odlicni%20ucenici%202011%20sajt/16.jpg

I think all would pass but they have slightly different vibe from Greeks


Most Greek looking is second one from right hand side to left hand side imo

[Crn Volk]

Greek students...look slightly different...

https://greece.greekreporter.com/files/greek-law-students.jpg

[Tauromachos]

Greek students...look slightly different...

https://greece.greekreporter.com/files/greek-law-students.jpg

Supposed to mean what exactly?

Can you ellaborate?

You disagree with my post?

You think the look,

the same?

more different?

Something else?

[Crn Volk]

Supposed to mean what exactly?

Can you ellaborate?

You disagree with my post?

You think the look,

the same?

more different?

Something else?

Relax, why so jumpy? They look slightly different. Less Dinaric.

[Tauromachos]

Relax, why so jumpy? They look slightly different. Less Dinaric.

I'm relaxed

Just didn't understand what you meant

So you mean they look slightly different and in your opinion its because the Montengrin women look more Dinaric

Right?

[Crn Volk]

I'm relaxed

Just didn't understand what you meant

So you mean they look slightly different and in your opinion its because the Montengrin women look more Dinaric

Right?

σωστός

[kleenex]

Montenegrin girls also from Podgorica - whether they look Greek?
http://www.sraspopovic.com/images/Odlicni%20ucenici%202011%20sajt/16.jpg

I am of full mainland Greek descent and yes they could pass as Greek.

[Tauromachos]

I am of full mainland Greek descent and yes they could pass as Greek.

And?

[Lavrentis]

I am of full mainland Greek descent and yes they could pass as Greek.

You live in the USA, not in Greece. I don’t think you have seen that many Greeks to be certain whether they would pass in Greece.

They wouldn’t pass as southern Greeks or Cretans because they look too Dinaric. Northern Greeks don’t look like that either from my experience but whatever

[Tauromachos]

You live in the USA, not in Greece. I don’t think you have seen that many Greeks to be certain whether they would pass in Greece.

They wouldn’t pass as southern Greeks or Cretans because they look too Dinaric. Northern Greeks don’t look like that either from my experience but whatever

The ones in the picture could pass at least in the sense they look similar to Greeks but also with a slightly different vibe

Note to pass somewhere you don't have to look 100% native in my notion

In general this set looks more similar to Greeks than the other Serbian sets i have seen before by the OP and even more
than some of the Bulgarians sets posted here

But also there are some individuals both among men and women in this set who don't pass at all


As i said before i find in general the women here more Greek looking than the men

Other than that i agree with your post

[Lavrentis]

The ones in the picture could pass at least in the sense they look similar to Greeks but also with a slightly different vibe

Note to pass somewhere you don't have to look 100% native in my notion

In general this set looks more similar to Greeks than the other Serbian sets i have seen before by the OP and even more
than some of the Bulgarians sets posted here

But also there are some individuals both among men and women in this set who don't pass at all


As i said before i find in general the women here more Greek looking than the men

Other than that i agree with your post

It seems that they look more similar to Greeks than other Balkanites, true. But people see a darker Balkanite and immediately think that he can pass as Greek which is not true. Not all darker Balkanites look Greek.

The ancient Greeks had settled in parts of coastal Montenegro so that’s why some Montenegrins could look Greek imo.

[Tauromachos]

It seems that they look more similar to Greeks than other Balkanites, true. But people see a darker Balkanite and immediately think that he can pass as Greek which is not true. Not all darker Balkanites look Greek.

True
There are both dark and light type in Balkans for that matter who look Greek or pass,
in general Greeks and Balkanites look different

Also some of dark types of this women pass as South Italians too imo



The ancient Greeks had settled in parts of coastal Montenegro so that’s why some Montenegrins could look Greek.

´+1