Who is more Germanic: Person A or Person B

[Peterski]

Person A is 20% West German, 20% Irish, 10% French Basque and 50% East Ukrainian.

Person B is 30% Northern Germanic, 20% Lithuanian and 50% East Ukrainian (Belgorod).

These are their admixture results in Eurogenes K15:

https://i.imgur.com/emKudnQ.png

[cyberlorian]

Person B.

[Jana]

B.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

A.

None of them can be moulded as Germanics with such results but the individual A would nonetheless be genetically closer to most Germanic samples rather than the individual B.

Is the the individual A a Czech citizen and the B a Polish citizen?

[J. Ketch]

A would probably plot closer to most Germans on a PCA.

[Peterski]

A would probably plot closer to most Germans on a PCA.

A 100% West German would plot closer to Russians on a PCA, than a 50% Russian + 50% Syrian.

So who is more Slavic in this example - a 100% West German or a 50% Russian + 50% Syrian?

[Jana]

A 100% West German would plot closer to Russians on a PCA, than a 50% Russian + 50% Syrian.

So who is more Slavic in this example - a 100% West German or a 50% Russian + 50% Syrian?

Ofc the half Russian is more Slavic.

[Token]

B.

[Peterski]

Is the the individual A a Czech citizen and the B a Polish citizen?

They are just two fictional individuals, but they plot like this:

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

https://i.imgur.com/2g8qWvT.png

BTW I messaged Davidski and asked him what exactly is "Ukrainian" in his Eurogenes K15 spreadsheet.

Because he has Ukrainian_Lviv, Ukrainian_Belgorod (samples from the Estonian Biocentre) and Ukrainian.

He replied that "Ukrainians" are samples from North-Western Ukraine (areas of Volyn and Rivne Oblasts).

[J. Ketch]

A 100% West German would plot closer to Russians on a PCA, than a 50% Russian + 50% Syrian.

So who is more Slavic in this example - a 100% West German or a 50% Russian + 50% Syrian?
The latter, but I wouldn't consider either Slavic, nor would I really consider Person A or B Germanic.

[Peterski]

The latter, but I wouldn't consider either Slavic, nor would I really consider Person A or B Germanic.

What would you consider Person A or B as? A is a Slavo-Celto-Germanic mix, B is a Slavo-Germano-Baltic mix.

[J. Ketch]

What would you consider Person A or B as? A is a Slavo-Celto-Germanic mix, B is a Slavo-Germano-Baltic mix.
Euromutts. Likely American.

[Peterski]

Euromutts. Likely American.

They are not Americans but Europeans.

[IncelSlayer]

A obviously, because he is near half western and has irish which is very western, wheras person be is a little over a quarter german and rest balto-slavic.

[Ylla]

B.

[Peterski]

A obviously, because he is near half western and has irish which is very western

But Irish is Celtic and Basque is neither Germanic nor Celtic.

[IncelSlayer]

But Irish is Celtic and Basque is neither Germanic nor Celtic.

who cares, one of his parents is near fully western euro both genetically,by looks(most likely) and heritage/culture, so he has a higher chance to look like that and preserve that culture.

[Peterski]

Also it can be argued that phenotypically Lithuanians look closer to Germanic than the Irish do.

[Peterski]

who cares, one of his parents is near fully western euro both genetically,by looks(most likely) and heritage/culture, so he has a higher chance to look like that and preserve that culture.

The Irish don't look Germanic (let alone the Basques).

Baltic types like Gytis Reiteris or Liudvikas Vilimas (Lithuanians) pass as Germanic better than Celtic types like Colin Farrell (Irish).

[IncelSlayer]

The Irish don't look Germanic (let alone the Basques).

Baltic types like Gytis Reiteris or Liudvikas Vilimas (Lithuanians) pass as Germanic better than Celtic types like Colin Farrell (Irish).

you picked the most atypical examples on purpose, both irish and germans got that western look on average unlike balts, let alone ukraineans, also i was talking on average, we have have no idea how any of those 2 people parents looked like, let alone the mix

[Peterski]

you picked the most atypical examples on purpose, both irish and germans got that western look on average unlike balts, let alone ukraineans, also i was talking on average, we have have no idea how any of those 2 people parents looked like, let alone the mix

This is my dad and there is nothing Germanic about his phenotype:

[photo removed]

His results indicate Celtic admixture (he even gets some Romanian!):

[pics removed]

[IncelSlayer]

This is my dad and there is nothing Germanic about his phenotype:

His results indicate Celtic admixture (he even gets some Romanian!):


You said we were talking about 2 hypothetical cases, and more importantly based on actual ancestry not haploautism to which i have already responded.

[Peterski]

You said we were talking about 2 hypothetical cases

You are an idiot who thinks that Celts and Germanics look the same.

[IncelSlayer]

You are an idiot who thinks that Celts and Germanics look the same.

never said this, i said both irish and german look western, you've lost the argument anyway when you've posted Collin Farell lmao.

[Peterski]

We were talking about two hypothetical cases.

My father plots slightly differently (Wlkp1 here):

https://i.imgur.com/uynMR00.png

Suw1 is an ethnic Pole from Suwałki NE Poland.

Slovak2 is from Nitra Region (Klacansky's dad).


you picked the most atypical examples on purpose

Really?

Okay, I searched "the most Irish person ever" on You Tube, I found these two videos:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyEY7V4_czg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXiWyqHA024

[TeutonicBoyars]

Person A is 20% West German, 20% Irish, 10% French Basque and 50% East Ukrainian.

Person B is 30% Northern Germanic, 20% Lithuanian and 50% East Ukrainian (Belgorod).

These are their admixture results in Eurogenes K15:

https://i.imgur.com/emKudnQ.png

Just curious, what are the two individual's actual ancestry proportions? Or, if they're not real people, how did you come up with these admixture proportions?

[Dandelion]

Whichever has the Germanic culture. That plays a more defining role.

[Dandelion]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXiWyqHA024

Most Irish person reminds me of one weird Dutch guy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t03kR03mLfI

Look at the dislike bar lol.

[Grace O'Malley]

But Irish is Celtic and Basque is neither Germanic nor Celtic.

Being Celtic is more a culture just like being Germanic is more cultural. I'm surprised a bit about your comments as someone who has looked a lot at dna. What exactly is "Celtic" genetically or "Germanic"? I'm asking this because the more you look at genetics the more blurry this is. Have you looked at things like the Global25 etc and at Northern Europeans in particular? Genetically Germans are also very diverse alot more so than people like the Irish or Basque.

You should also know that Irish people don't all look like Colin Farrell fine man he is and all. :) I'm more interested in the genetics these days anyway because people are much too stereotypical in what they think populations look like including yourself. :p

But I know you've said you can tell if someone is Celtic or Germanic by looking at some of their results but all the Irish have some Germanic element to their genetics and all the Germanic populations have some Celtic element to their genetics. I'm using Germanic here to designate Dutch or Norwegian etc and Celtic as Irish, Scottish, Welsh or Cornish. Global25 is very accurate at illustrating this. All Northwestern Europeans don't really form separate clusters but more on a continuum and some will crossover into another population.

I've had a lot of Global25 results done on myself so this is why I find it odd that some people still really believe that especially being Celtic is a genetic thing. :confused: I would have though you might be a bit more aware of this.

[Peterski]

What exactly is "Celtic" genetically or "Germanic"? I'm asking this because the more you look at genetics the more blurry this is. Have you looked at things like the Global25 etc and at Northern Europeans in particular? Genetically Germans are also very diverse alot more so than people like the Irish or Basque.

Ancient DNA is showing us that all Germanic tribes were very homogeneous genetically even as late as the Iron Age.

Modern Germans are diverse because they have mixed with Non-Germanic populations in the last 2500-3000 years.

Compare for example ancient Bajuwarii and modern Bavarians.

The same will be proven for Celts, with exception that expansion of Proto-Celts took place already in the Bronze Agë.

[Peterski]

I've had a lot of Global25 results done on myself so this is why I find it odd that some people still really believe that especially being Celtic is a genetic thing.

Yes, I believe that shortly after departing from their ancestral Urheimat, all Celts were genetically homogeneous.

[Grace O'Malley]

Yes, I believe that shortly after departing from their ancestral Urheimat, all Celts were genetically homogeneous.

I'll show you my Global25 breakdown on PM.

[Peterski]

I'll show you my Global25 breakdown on PM.

Okay, but you are not a Bronze Age Proto-Celt. :p

BTW wasn't that you who claimed, that there is no any Irish-Iberian genetic connection (either you or Etain)?

Then how do you explain, that many Irish people score over 20% Iberian in K36? I can show you examples.

[Grace O'Malley]

Okay, but you are not a Bronze Age Proto-Celt. :p

BTW wasn't that you who claimed, that there is no any Irish-Iberian genetic connection (either you or Etain)?

Then how do you explain, that many Irish people score over 20% Iberian in K36? I can show you examples.

I score over 14% Iberian on the K36. We all know where the Irish population came from though and the Atlantic Facade is a myth. We do know that Normans, Vikings, British went to Ireland but before that it was Bell Beakers. It's all been studied. In the Irish DNA Atlas Irish do get some Spanish breakdown.

https://media.springernature.com/m685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-17124-4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_17124_Fig3_HTML.jpg

The thing I object about is people saying the Irish came from Spain when we know that's not true. Also the Irish don't get more Iberian than other populations they cluster with otherwise they wouldn't cluster with them.

Look at the Spanish they gave for Norwegians in the Irish DNA Atlas. They get a lot more Spain than the Irish in that breakdown. Do people say the Norwegians came from Spain? There's been loads of dna studies so we all have a good idea about populations don't we?

http://i68.tinypic.com/25ri6ug.png

[Peterski]

Also the Irish don't get more Iberian than other populations they cluster with otherwise they wouldn't cluster with them.

Of course Germanic populations also have Med admixture, but it tends to be more Italian-like than Iberian-like.

On K36 Germanic populations tend to score more Italian than Iberian, the opposite is the case for the Irish.

[Grace O'Malley]

Of course Germanic populations also have Med admixture, but it tends to be more Italian-like than Iberian-like.

On K36 Germanic populations tend to score more Italian than Iberian, the opposite is the case for the Irish.

The Irish farmer woman Ballynahatty matched best with Sardinians and Iberians so there might be that but apparently Irish don't have a lot of Ballynahatty. On the K36 British Isles populations also score more French than the actual French. So they are a combination of different factors. What exactly is the North Sea on that and the North Atlantic?

Just adding that there are two great studies on the Irish like the one above the Irish DNA Atlas and the Insular Celtic paper. There has been previous studies done on them as well. I'm sure you know Peterski that they are similar to their neighbours so have similar influences to them be they English, Dutch etc.

[Sikeliot]

Of course Germanic populations also have Med admixture, but it tends to be more Italian-like than Iberian-like.

On K36 Germanic populations tend to score more Italian than Iberian, the opposite is the case for the Irish.

Germanic populations likely score more Italian than Iberian because of some sort of Caucasus influence that is higher in Europe as one moves southeast -- Germans likely are more West Asian/Caucasian than the Irish are.

[Peterski]

Germanic populations likely score more Italian than Iberian because of some sort of Caucasus influence that is higher in Europe as one moves southeast -- Germans likely are more West Asian/Caucasian than the Irish are.

I have also seen Welsh samples with over 20% Iberian in K36.

Example (ancestry from Glamorganshire and Carmarthenshire):

Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 33.68
2 North_Sea 30.77
3 Baltic 10.89
4 West_Med 9.68
5 Eastern_Euro 8.09
6 West_Asian 3.89
7 Red_Sea 1.97
8 Southeast_Asian 0.6
9 Northeast_African 0.18
10 Sub-Saharan 0.16
11 Oceanian 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southeast_English 6.04
2 Southwest_English 6.19
3 Irish 6.28
4 West_Scottish 7.11
5 South_Dutch 7.28
6 North_German 7.62
7 Danish 8.56
8 North_Dutch 8.85
9 Orcadian 9.27
10 French 10.8
11 West_German 11.95
12 Norwegian 12.78
13 East_German 13.58
14 West_Norwegian 13.66
15 Swedish 13.68
16 North_Swedish 15.48
17 Austrian 16.11
18 Spanish_Cataluna 16.21
19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 17.09
20 Southwest_Finnish 17.51

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 80.1% Irish + 19.9% French_Basque @ 3.03
2 73.7% Danish + 26.3% French_Basque @ 3.41
3 77.9% West_Scottish + 22.1% French_Basque @ 3.41
4 73% North_Dutch + 27% French_Basque @ 3.45
5 76.5% North_German + 23.5% French_Basque @ 3.5
6 77.2% Irish + 22.8% Southwest_French @ 3.63
7 74.4% West_Scottish + 25.6% Southwest_French @ 3.9
8 79.5% Irish + 20.5% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.92
9 79.6% Irish + 20.4% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.04
10 78.4% Irish + 21.6% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.06
11 83.2% Southeast_English + 16.8% French_Basque @ 4.11
12 80.2% Irish + 19.8% Spanish_Valencia @ 4.23
13 81.9% Irish + 18.1% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.26
14 76.9% West_Scottish + 23.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 4.27
15 77% West_Scottish + 23% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.4
16 75.7% West_Scottish + 24.3% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.43
17 62.8% Swedish + 37.2% French_Basque @ 4.45
18 79% Irish + 21% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 4.5
19 77.4% West_Scottish + 22.6% Spanish_Valencia @ 4.57
20 79.3% West_Scottish + 20.7% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.61

Eurogenes K36:

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 2.26
Central_African -
Central_Euro 3.19
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan -
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 8.26
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 1.72
Fennoscandian 7.08
French 7.72
Iberian 20.33
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 11.03
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 18.17
North_Caucasian 0.67
North_Sea 17.00
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 2.02
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med 0.53

[Sikeliot]

The Irish farmer woman Ballynahatty matched best with Sardinians and Iberians so there might be that but apparently Irish don't have a lot of Ballynahatty. On the K36 British Isles populations also score more French than the actual French. So they are a combination of different factors. What exactly is the North Sea on that and the North Atlantic?

Just adding that there are two great studies on the Irish like the one above the Irish DNA Atlas and the Insular Celtic paper. There has been previous studies done on them as well. I'm sure you know Peterski that they are similar to their neighbours so have similar influences to them be they English, Dutch etc.


I also notice that the English have more Caucasus/West Asian than do the Irish, though less than Germans. This could be from their continental Germanic ancestry which surely did not only bring Scandinavian-like elements but also continental European ones, though as we know, the English also have a lot of pre-Germanic Celtic ancestry.

As for Ireland, in the Insular Celtic study we clearly see some people from Leinster, North Munster, and of course Northern Ireland shifting away from the main Irish cluster and toward the English and Scots, which indicates that they, too, may have higher than average continental Germanic input and we might want to see if this also comes with slightly higher Caucasus.

[Peterski]

On the K36 British Isles populations also score more French than the actual French.

Because French is based on Bretons.

[Grace O'Malley]

Yes, I believe that shortly after departing from their ancestral Urheimat, all Celts were genetically homogeneous.

So what exactly makes a Celt in particular? To me people in geographic areas of Europe descend from similar ancient populations. We know the Bronze Age was the cause of major changes in Europe and we know that whether someone is Irish "Celt" or North Dutch "Germanic" that they can cluster together. So how exactly can you isolate something Celtic when no geneticist has done this?

Being Celt is more a tribal designation to do with identity and language. It is not genetic because if you have noticed genetics follows geography and the Irish are just like other Northwest Europeans and cluster with other people from that geography. They aren't like the Basques or even populations like the Finns who appear to have their own clusters. Heck the Irish aren't as distinctive as people like the Spanish or Italians who cluster more in their own groups. So as someone really interested in genetics who has read a lot about this subject no one has been able to say what a Celt should be genetically.

They have two Hallstatt Celts now but they wouldn't cluster with the Irish.

[Grace O'Malley]

I have also seen Welsh samples with over 20% Iberian in K36.

Example (ancestry from Glamorganshire and Carmarthenshire):

Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 33.68
2 North_Sea 30.77
3 Baltic 10.89
4 West_Med 9.68
5 Eastern_Euro 8.09
6 West_Asian 3.89
7 Red_Sea 1.97
8 Southeast_Asian 0.6
9 Northeast_African 0.18
10 Sub-Saharan 0.16
11 Oceanian 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southeast_English 6.04
2 Southwest_English 6.19
3 Irish 6.28
4 West_Scottish 7.11
5 South_Dutch 7.28
6 North_German 7.62
7 Danish 8.56
8 North_Dutch 8.85
9 Orcadian 9.27
10 French 10.8
11 West_German 11.95
12 Norwegian 12.78
13 East_German 13.58
14 West_Norwegian 13.66
15 Swedish 13.68
16 North_Swedish 15.48
17 Austrian 16.11
18 Spanish_Cataluna 16.21
19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 17.09
20 Southwest_Finnish 17.51

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 80.1% Irish + 19.9% French_Basque @ 3.03
2 73.7% Danish + 26.3% French_Basque @ 3.41
3 77.9% West_Scottish + 22.1% French_Basque @ 3.41
4 73% North_Dutch + 27% French_Basque @ 3.45
5 76.5% North_German + 23.5% French_Basque @ 3.5
6 77.2% Irish + 22.8% Southwest_French @ 3.63
7 74.4% West_Scottish + 25.6% Southwest_French @ 3.9
8 79.5% Irish + 20.5% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.92
9 79.6% Irish + 20.4% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.04
10 78.4% Irish + 21.6% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.06
11 83.2% Southeast_English + 16.8% French_Basque @ 4.11
12 80.2% Irish + 19.8% Spanish_Valencia @ 4.23
13 81.9% Irish + 18.1% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.26
14 76.9% West_Scottish + 23.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 4.27
15 77% West_Scottish + 23% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.4
16 75.7% West_Scottish + 24.3% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.43
17 62.8% Swedish + 37.2% French_Basque @ 4.45
18 79% Irish + 21% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 4.5
19 77.4% West_Scottish + 22.6% Spanish_Valencia @ 4.57
20 79.3% West_Scottish + 20.7% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.61

Eurogenes K36:

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 2.26
Central_African -
Central_Euro 3.19
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan -
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 8.26
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 1.72
Fennoscandian 7.08
French 7.72
Iberian 20.33
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 11.03
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 18.17
North_Caucasian 0.67
North_Sea 17.00
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 2.02
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med 0.53

What does that prove though? All populations will have people that have different percentages of these components. As you can see that person comes out first as Southeast English and their distance isn't even close. I could post my K36 as an Irish person and my result is different.

They would have averages for certain populations and people either fall in that or don't. This person most like has higher Early European Farmer or some other component which is giving them high Iberian. My mother gets higher Fennoscandian than me and we are mother and daughter. If you post 10 Irish people's results on the K36 they will all be different. That's a Welsh person but I've seen another Welsh person's results on Anthrogenica and they get quite different than the person you posted.

[Peterski]

What does that prove though. All populations will have people that have different percentages of these components. As you can see that person comes out first a Southeast English and their distance isn't even close. I could post my K36 as an Irish person and my result is different.

That person has as much similarity to South France (70-79%) as to Scandinavia and North Germany (72-79%):

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

[Grace O'Malley]

That person has as much similarity to South France (70-79%) as to Scandinavia and North Germany (72-79%):

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

That's quite unusual though isn't it? I've seen a lot of the similarity maps posted so this is obviously not a common result. The link you posted doesn't have their results but just the blank map. It would be interesting to see what sort of numbers they get for Britain and Ireland.

I looked at their map and they are still more similar to the British Isles, Netherlands and Northern France. Their scores are quite different than mine though so I'm sure you have lots of different results from all countries.

[Peterski]

That's quite unusual though isn't it? I've seen a lot of the similarity maps posted so this is obviously not a common result. The link you posted doesn't have their results but just the blank map. It would be interesting to see what sort of numbers they get for Britain and Ireland.

https://i.imgur.com/A1amSZS.png

^^^
Note that over 80% for the Netherlands is only because it is based on some kind of average of South Dutch and North Dutch.

North Dutch are way more Germanic than South Dutch, and there would not be more than 70-something percent with them.

[Peterski]

As you can see that person comes out first as Southeast English and their distance isn't even close.

Here is GEDCOM, are these English surnames?:

=============================

... MILES, b. 1804, Llanfabon, Glamorgan, Wales, d. 20 Feb 1882, Llanfabon, Glamorgan, Wales ==>
/
... MILES, b. 22 May 1862, Llanfabon, Glamorgan, Wales, d. 16 Apr 1928, Bargoed, Glamorgan, Wales
/ \
| ... WILLIAMS, b. 29 Aug 1826, Eglwysilan, Glamorganshire, d. 21 Jul 1908, Llanfabon, Glamorgan, Wales ==>
/
... MILES, b. 09 Oct 1896, Nelson, Glamorgan, Wales, d. 15 Mar 1972, Pontyberem, Carmarthenshire, Wales
/ \
| | ... ROWLANDS, b. 16 May 1844, Llanfabon, Glamorgan, Wales, d. 17 Mar 1904, Llanfabon, Glamorgan, Wales ==>
| \ /
| ... ROWLANDS, b. 06 May 1865, Llanfabon, Glamorgan, Wales, d. 17 Apr 1945, Llanfabon, Glamorgan, Wales
| \
| ... LEWIS, b. 29 Jan 1845, Gelligaer, Glamorgan, Wales, d. 14 Feb 1884, Llanfabon, Glamorgan, Wales ==>
/
xxxxxxxxxx
/ \
| | ... REES, b. 1827, Betws, Carmarthenshire, Wales, d. 22 Jul 1899, Betws, Carmarthenshire, Wales ==>
| | /
| | ... REES, b. 11 Jan 1857, Betws, Carmarthenshire, Wales, d. 19 Jun 1912, Nelson, Glamorgan, Wales
| | / \
| | | ... ISAAC, b. 1830, Betws, Carmarthenshire, Wales, d. 18 Oct 1898, Betws, Carmarthenshire, Wales ==>
| \ /
| ... REES, b. 12 Oct 1894, Llanwonno, Glamorgan, Wales, d. 03 Oct 1944, Pontyberem, Carmarthenshire, Wales
| \
| | ... THOMAS, b. 09 Dec 1823, Llansamlet, Glamorgan, Wales, d. 27 Jan 1872, Mountain Ash, Glamorgan, Wales ==>
| \ /
| ... THOMAS, b. 22 Aug 1858, Pyle, Glamorgan, Wales, d. 12 Sep 1906, Treharris, Glamorgan, Wales
| \
| ... WATKIN, b. 22 May 1825, Llansamlet, Glamorgan, Wales, d. 05 Oct 1901, Mountain Ash, Glamorgan, Wales ==>
/
HIDDEN HIDDEN
\
| ... JENKINS, b. 1815, Llanelly, Carmarthenshire, Wales
| /
| ... JENKINS, b. 23 Mar 1850, Llanelly, Carmarthenshire, Wales, d. 03 Feb 1908, Pontyberem, Carmarthenshire, Wales
| / \
| | ... BOWEN, b. 1824, Llanelly, Carmarthenshire, Wales, d. 02 Jan 1859, Pontyberem, Carmarthenshire, Wales ==>
| /
| ... JENKINS, b. 27 Sep 1892, Llanddarog, Carmarthenshire, Wales, d. 07 Mar 1957, Crwbin, Carmarthenshire, Wales
| / \
| | | ... ROBERTS, b. 1842, Llannon, Carmarthenshire, Wales, d. 30 Sep 1912, Pontyberem, Carmarthenshire, Wales ==>
| | \ /
| | ... ROBERTS, b. 14 Jul 1866, Pontyberem, Carmarthenshire, Wales, d. 20 Oct 1926, Pontyberem, Carmarthenshire, Wales
| | \
| | ... AUBREY, b. 03 Aug 1838, Llanddarog, Carmarthenshire, Wales, d. 17 Dec 1903, Pontyberem, Carmarthenshire, Wales ==>
\ /
xxxxxxxxxx
\
| ... JONES, b. 20 Feb 1829, Llangendeirne, Carmarthenshire, Wales, d. 27 May 1907, Llangendeirne, Carmarthenshire, Wales ==>
| /
| ... JONES, b. 25 Sep 1854, Crwbin, Carmarthenshire, Wales, d. 03 Jan 1904, Crwbin, Carmarthenshire, Wales
| / \
| | ... WALTERS, b. 04 Dec 1824, Llandybie, Carmarthenshire, Wales, d. 22 Jan 1895, Crwbin, Carmarthenshire, Wales ==>
\ /
... JONES, b. 26 Jul 1902, Crwbin, Carmarthenshire, Wales, d. 20 Feb 1984, Bancffosfelen, Carmarthenshire, Wales
\
| ... THOMAS, b. 11 May 1832, Llangendeirne, Carmarthenshire, Wales, d. 20 Sep 1895, Williamsburg, Iowa, Iowa, USA ==>
\ /
... THOMAS, b. 21 Mar 1859, Llangendeirne, Carmarthenshire, Wales, d. 15 Mar 1941, Crwbin, Carmarthenshire, Wales
\
... WALTERS, b. 30 Nov 1833, Llangendeirne, Carmarthenshire, Wales, d. 04 Jun 1914, Williamsburg, Iowa, Iowa, USA ==>

[Grace O'Malley]

https://i.imgur.com/A1amSZS.png

^^^
Note that over 80% for the Netherlands is only because it is based on some kind of average of South Dutch and North Dutch.

North Dutch are way more Germanic than South Dutch, and there would not be more than 70-something percent with them.

Still quite British Isles and Northwestern Europe. How much Iberian do South Dutch get? It's all geographic related really. The fortunate thing though is especially Britain and Ireland have been quite well studied genetically so we know very well what populations have contributed to their gene pool. It would be great if other populations had the same sort of studies done like Dutch, Belgians, Italians etc. I'd love to see one on Normandy as well. Not holding my breath though but it is a pity that these populations haven't been studied as well as the Irish and British. My point being we know quite well about the Irish and British.

[Peterski]

It's all geographic related really.

No, it is rather related to ethnic history of the Netherlands.

North Dutch are simply descended from different tribes:

http://i.imgur.com/j2sm9Sw.png

https://www.mupload.nl/img/jenh2hstc3v3c.png

[Grace O'Malley]

Here is GEDCOM, are these English surnames?:



No but my point was that they match Southeast English first on that Gedmatch calc so they must have components that are similar for them to match but even then they don't match really close for some reason so they have something in their components that is not as close to the norm as someone matching 2.36 for example.

Anyway no Welshman will be pure Welsh as we know. All the pops in Britain have been mixing for a long time.

[Peterski]

No but my point was that they match Southeast English first on that Gedmatch calc

But the distance was very large (and remember there is no Welsh in Eurogenes K15).

In Eurogenes K13 this is what he gets:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 49.51
2 Baltic 23.3
3 West_Med 15.98
4 West_Asian 6.05
5 Red_Sea 2.36
6 East_Asian 1.15
7 East_Med 0.7
8 Oceanian 0.36
9 Northeast_African 0.34
10 Sub-Saharan 0.24

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_English 3.72
2 Irish 4.74
3 Orcadian 4.81
4 West_Scottish 5.24
5 Southeast_English 5.24
6 North_Dutch 6.04
7 Danish 6.94
8 South_Dutch 7.43
9 North_German 7.64
10 Norwegian 7.81
11 West_German 9.06
12 Swedish 9.59
13 French 11.98
14 Austrian 13.93
15 East_German 14.28
16 North_Swedish 15.27
17 Spanish_Cataluna 18.61
18 Southwest_French 18.81
19 Hungarian 18.9
20 Spanish_Cantabria 19.5

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.2% Southwest_English + 7.8% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.01
2 92.8% Southwest_English + 7.2% Ukrainian @ 3.09
3 94.7% Southwest_English + 5.3% Erzya @ 3.1
4 92.8% Southwest_English + 7.2% Polish @ 3.1
5 92.1% Southwest_English + 7.9% Croatian @ 3.11
6 92.5% Southwest_English + 7.5% Moldavian @ 3.11
7 93.6% Southwest_English + 6.4% Russian_Smolensk @ 3.12
8 93.8% Southwest_English + 6.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.12
9 93.1% Irish + 6.9% Sardinian @ 3.12
10 94.2% Southwest_English + 5.8% Kargopol_Russian @ 3.13
11 83.9% Irish + 16.1% Southwest_French @ 3.13
12 87.6% Southwest_English + 12.4% East_German @ 3.15
13 92.5% Southwest_English + 7.5% South_Polish @ 3.15
14 94.6% Southwest_English + 5.4% Tatar @ 3.16
15 94.1% Southwest_English + 5.9% Southwest_Russian @ 3.18
16 94% Southwest_English + 6% Estonian_Polish @ 3.18
17 94.6% Southwest_English + 5.4% Lithuanian @ 3.19
18 95.7% Southwest_English + 4.3% Chuvash @ 3.19
19 87.8% Southwest_English + 12.2% Austrian @ 3.2
20 72.8% Swedish + 27.2% French_Basque @ 3.21

[Grace O'Malley]

No, it is rather related to ethnic history of the Netherlands.

North Dutch are simply descended from different tribes:

http://i.imgur.com/j2sm9Sw.png

https://www.mupload.nl/img/jenh2hstc3v3c.png

I was meaning the closer you are to certain epicentres of a component the more you will have. Look at something like Northsea on Eurogenes. Populations closest to the source have higher amounts. That why geography will be a factor. If you are closer to certain populations you will more likely have some interaction with them and share genes.

[Grace O'Malley]

But the distance was very large (and remember there is no Welsh in Eurogenes K15).

In Eurogenes K13 this is what he gets:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 49.51
2 Baltic 23.3
3 West_Med 15.98
4 West_Asian 6.05
5 Red_Sea 2.36
6 East_Asian 1.15
7 East_Med 0.7
8 Oceanian 0.36
9 Northeast_African 0.34
10 Sub-Saharan 0.24

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_English 3.72
2 Irish 4.74
3 Orcadian 4.81
4 West_Scottish 5.24
5 Southeast_English 5.24
6 North_Dutch 6.04
7 Danish 6.94
8 South_Dutch 7.43
9 North_German 7.64
10 Norwegian 7.81
11 West_German 9.06
12 Swedish 9.59
13 French 11.98
14 Austrian 13.93
15 East_German 14.28
16 North_Swedish 15.27
17 Spanish_Cataluna 18.61
18 Southwest_French 18.81
19 Hungarian 18.9
20 Spanish_Cantabria 19.5

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.2% Southwest_English + 7.8% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.01
2 92.8% Southwest_English + 7.2% Ukrainian @ 3.09
3 94.7% Southwest_English + 5.3% Erzya @ 3.1
4 92.8% Southwest_English + 7.2% Polish @ 3.1
5 92.1% Southwest_English + 7.9% Croatian @ 3.11
6 92.5% Southwest_English + 7.5% Moldavian @ 3.11
7 93.6% Southwest_English + 6.4% Russian_Smolensk @ 3.12
8 93.8% Southwest_English + 6.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.12
9 93.1% Irish + 6.9% Sardinian @ 3.12
10 94.2% Southwest_English + 5.8% Kargopol_Russian @ 3.13
11 83.9% Irish + 16.1% Southwest_French @ 3.13
12 87.6% Southwest_English + 12.4% East_German @ 3.15
13 92.5% Southwest_English + 7.5% South_Polish @ 3.15
14 94.6% Southwest_English + 5.4% Tatar @ 3.16
15 94.1% Southwest_English + 5.9% Southwest_Russian @ 3.18
16 94% Southwest_English + 6% Estonian_Polish @ 3.18
17 94.6% Southwest_English + 5.4% Lithuanian @ 3.19
18 95.7% Southwest_English + 4.3% Chuvash @ 3.19
19 87.8% Southwest_English + 12.2% Austrian @ 3.2
20 72.8% Swedish + 27.2% French_Basque @ 3.21

Completely different breakdown in his 2 pop mix but obviously very British Isles.

[Peterski]

Anyway no Welshman will be pure Welsh as we know. All the pops in Britain have been mixing for a long time.

This person is from the same area where the Silures (who were said to be dark-haired, Med-looking) used to live:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silures

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Wales.pre-Roman.jpg/300px-Wales.pre-Roman.jpg

Maybe this explains why there is such a southern-shift and similarity to South France and Iberia for this person.

You can see in the GEDCOM that all of recent ancestors are from Southern Wales.

==========

About the Silures:

"... the swarthy faces of the Silures, the curly quality, in general, of their hair, and the position of Spain opposite their shores, attest to the passage of Iberians in old days and the occupation by them of these districts; ..." (Tacitus Annales Xi.ii, translated by M. Hutton)

And this guy's K15:

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 80.1% Irish + 19.9% French_Basque @ 3.03
2 73.7% Danish + 26.3% French_Basque @ 3.41
3 77.9% West_Scottish + 22.1% French_Basque @ 3.41
4 73% North_Dutch + 27% French_Basque @ 3.45
5 76.5% North_German + 23.5% French_Basque @ 3.5
6 77.2% Irish + 22.8% Southwest_French @ 3.63
7 74.4% West_Scottish + 25.6% Southwest_French @ 3.9
8 79.5% Irish + 20.5% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.92
9 79.6% Irish + 20.4% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.04
10 78.4% Irish + 21.6% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.06
11 83.2% Southeast_English + 16.8% French_Basque @ 4.11
12 80.2% Irish + 19.8% Spanish_Valencia @ 4.23
13 81.9% Irish + 18.1% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.26
14 76.9% West_Scottish + 23.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 4.27
15 77% West_Scottish + 23% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.4
16 75.7% West_Scottish + 24.3% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.43
17 62.8% Swedish + 37.2% French_Basque @ 4.45
18 79% Irish + 21% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 4.5
19 77.4% West_Scottish + 22.6% Spanish_Valencia @ 4.57
20 79.3% West_Scottish + 20.7% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.61

[Peterski]

Completely different breakdown in his 2 pop mix but obviously very British Isles.

Because - compared to K15 - K13 lumps together North Sea and Atlantic components as North Atlantic, that's why.

[Grace O'Malley]

This person is from the same area where the Silures (who were said to be dark-haired, Med-looking) used to live:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silures

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Wales.pre-Roman.jpg/300px-Wales.pre-Roman.jpg

Maybe this explains why there is such a southern-shift and similarity to South France and Iberia for this person.

You can see in the GEDCOM that all of recent ancestors are from Southern Wales.

==========

About the Silures:

"... the swarthy faces of the Silures, the curly quality, in general, of their hair, and the position of Spain opposite their shores, attest to the passage of Iberians in old days and the occupation by them of these districts; ..." (Tacitus Annales Xi.ii, translated by M. Hutton)

And this guy's K15:

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 80.1% Irish + 19.9% French_Basque @ 3.03
2 73.7% Danish + 26.3% French_Basque @ 3.41
3 77.9% West_Scottish + 22.1% French_Basque @ 3.41
4 73% North_Dutch + 27% French_Basque @ 3.45
5 76.5% North_German + 23.5% French_Basque @ 3.5
6 77.2% Irish + 22.8% Southwest_French @ 3.63
7 74.4% West_Scottish + 25.6% Southwest_French @ 3.9
8 79.5% Irish + 20.5% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.92
9 79.6% Irish + 20.4% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.04
10 78.4% Irish + 21.6% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.06
11 83.2% Southeast_English + 16.8% French_Basque @ 4.11
12 80.2% Irish + 19.8% Spanish_Valencia @ 4.23
13 81.9% Irish + 18.1% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.26
14 76.9% West_Scottish + 23.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 4.27
15 77% West_Scottish + 23% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.4
16 75.7% West_Scottish + 24.3% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.43
17 62.8% Swedish + 37.2% French_Basque @ 4.45
18 79% Irish + 21% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 4.5
19 77.4% West_Scottish + 22.6% Spanish_Valencia @ 4.57
20 79.3% West_Scottish + 20.7% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.61

I doubt it does. They said the Scots were all red haired as well. As I've said we already know what populations influenced Britain and those calculators are trying to accommodate for the extra Med that person gets. I'm sure you know how they work and have seen enough results. I saw a lot of Polish results today that had a lot of Southeastern Europe in their breakdowns but I'm sure you basically know the populations that Poles descend from. Haven't you got South Dutch and German people with these sort of breakdowns?

Here's the map from the PoBI that has looked into this topic. They have the Welsh there so you can see their breakdown.

http://i63.tinypic.com/x537tu.jpg

The PoBI also said that their was no uniformity to the Celts and we know from the IDA that the most distinctive populations are the Orcadians and then the Welsh.

Here is the graphic from the IDA showing the clustering of all the population including the Irish.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KhZrWaoVG7c/WisHb34hwZI/AAAAAAAAMLY/pHoYFOWzZhQvL-SiG7Pqob4XGsuFaqlUQCLcBGAs/s1600/Capture.jpg

I'll look for the comment about the Celts in the PoBI paper.

[Peterski]

I saw a lot of Polish results today that had a lot of Southeastern Europe in their breakdowns

Where did you see these results?

This is entirely possible for Southern Poles, especially South-Eastern.


They have the Welsh there so you can see their breakdown.

They do not have South Welsh here: http://i63.tinypic.com/x537tu.jpg

At least not the same area (Glamorganshire and Carmarthenshire).


The PoBI also said that their was no uniformity to the Celts and we know from the IDA that the most distinctive populations are the Orcadians and then the Welsh.

The Orcadians form several different genetic clusters, as do the Welsh.

There is no uniformity even within Wales itself, or within Orkney Islands.

[Grace O'Malley]

Here is the quote from the PoBI.


We saw no evidence of a general “Celtic” population in non-Saxon parts of the UK. Instead there were many distinct genetic clusters in these regions, some amongst the most different in our analyses. Further, the ancestry profile of Cornwall (perhaps expected to resemble other “Celtic” clusters) is quite different from that of the Welsh clusters, and much closer to that of Devon, and Cent./ S England. Nevertheless, the data suggest that the Welsh clusters represent populations that are more similar to the early post-ice-age settlers of Britain than those from elsewhere in the UK.

On the IDA you will notice that the Irish and SSC (Southern Scottish) cluster are more similar but the Cornish and the Welsh more so are a little more distinctive. The most distinctive part of Ireland was South Munster.

[Peterski]

Yes, for example descendants of the Silures might be one of these distinct clusters due to their increased Iberian ancestry.

So I'm not sure Grace what are you trying to prove here - at first you claimed that everyone is similar and I will never be able to distinguish Celtic from Germanic, now you are claiming that everyone is different even within the Celtic group, and there are many different types of Celts.

I already noticed that South Wales is different than North Wales, for example. Both are also different from Germanic regions.

[Grace O'Malley]

Where did you see these results?

This is entirely possible for Southern Poles, especially South-Eastern.

There is a thread on Anthrogenica about it. Davidski even commented on them.



They do not have South Welsh here: http://i63.tinypic.com/x537tu.jpg

At least not the same area (Glamorganshire and Carmarthenshire).



The Orcadians form several different genetic clusters, as do the Welsh.

There is no uniformity even within Wales itself, or within Orkney Islands.

That's the point I was making. What is so distinctive about "Celtic" dna? I've looked at this topic for years because naturally I have an interest in it. There is no uniform Celtic cluster even within the Insular Celtic population. Good luck with finding Celtic dna on the European mainland.

This is the graphic which shows the distinctiveness of the Orcadians and Welsh. It's from the Insular Celtic paper which is an extremely good study and has a lot of graphs and explanations.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322710984/figure/fig4/AS:586903309017097@1516940061563/Principal-components-2-and-3-of-combined-Irish-and-British-coancestry-matrix-A.png

[Peterski]

That's the point I was making. What is so distinctive about "Celtic" dna. I've looked at this topic for years because naturally I have an interest in it. There is no uniform Celtic cluster even within the Insular Celtic population. Good luck with finding Celtic dna on the European mainland.

These clusters emerged during the last 1500-1000 years due to political fragmentation of Britain. For example people in kingdom X only intermarried with each other, and people in kingdom Y also only intermarried with each other, which is how they split into two clusters.

It doesn't mean that they are not descended from common Celtic ancestors.

[Peterski]

the Welsh clusters represent populations that are more similar to the early post-ice-age settlers of Britain than those from elsewhere in the UK.

Who are those "early post-ice-age settlers", hunters or Neolithic farmers?

Didn't you just claim that Bell Beakers replaced all previous populations?

(I actually argued on Anthrogenica that in some regions more of Neolithic ancestry could survive than in other regions)

We also cannot exclude the possibility of some immigration from Iberia to Britain after Bell Beaker invasions (for example those accounts about the origin of Silures could reflect actual reality - actual immigration from Iberia or South-West France in historical times).

There were historically attested movements from Britain to Northern Iberia, so the opposite was possible too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britonia

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Britonia6hcentury.png/290px-Britonia6hcentury.png

[Grace O'Malley]

Yes, for example descendants of the Silures might be one of these distinct clusters due to their increased Iberian ancestry.

So I'm not sure Grace what are you trying to prove here - at first you claimed that everyone is similar and I will never be able to distinguish Celtic from Germanic, now you are claiming that everyone is different even within the Celtic group, and there are many different types of Celts.

I already noticed that South Wales is different than North Wales, for example. Both are also different from Germanic regions.

We know what the Welsh breakdown is so I'm not sure what you are trying to prove? We know where Welsh people generally cluster.

This is the British Isles we are talking about. It is a finescale study. I'm really finding it strange having to belabour these points to you. You know more about genetics than me and you know that whatever variation is in the British Isles they cluster there but on finescale the Celts aren't all the same and in fact the English separate the Irish and Scots from the Welsh but all these populations don't have more variance than say the North and South Dutch. In fact don't the Dutch have more of a genetic diivide?

The point I'm making though is that whether a population is called Celtic or a population is called Germanic they will cluster together and they all have similar mixtures in them. This is why on Gedmatch I get these results?

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 51.71
2 Baltic 25.4
3 West_Med 9.97
4 West_Asian 7.3
5 Red_Sea 1.77
6 East_Med 1.61
7 Amerindian 1.28
8 Siberian 0.73
9 Oceanian 0.22

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Dutch 2.93
2 Irish 3.11
3 Norwegian 3.54
4 West_Scottish 3.71
5 Danish 3.82
6 Orcadian 3.83
7 North_German 5.25
8 Southeast_English 6.1
9 Southwest_English 6.24
10 Swedish 6.33
11 South_Dutch 10.06
12 West_German 10.9
13 North_Swedish 12.64
14 Austrian 15.02
15 East_German 15.17
16 French 15.76
17 Hungarian 19.31
18 Southwest_Finnish 20.89
19 Spanish_Cataluna 23.16
20 South_Polish 23.9

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 56% Irish + 44% Norwegian @ 2.24
2 52.1% Norwegian + 47.9% West_Scottish @ 2.36
3 75.3% Irish + 24.7% Swedish @ 2.45
4 54.8% North_Dutch + 45.2% Irish @ 2.5
5 87.1% Irish + 12.9% North_Swedish @ 2.51
6 68.2% West_Scottish + 31.8% Swedish @ 2.55
7 93.7% Irish + 6.3% Finnish @ 2.56
8 65.8% North_Dutch + 34.2% West_Scottish @ 2.58
9 94.7% Irish + 5.3% East_Finnish @ 2.61
10 92.5% Irish + 7.5% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.62
11 94.1% Irish + 5.9% La_Brana-1 @ 2.62
12 96.2% Irish + 3.8% Chuvash @ 2.63
13 73.3% Irish + 26.7% North_German @ 2.63
14 95.8% Irish + 4.2% Erzya @ 2.68
15 94.7% Irish + 5.3% Estonian @ 2.68
16 63.8% West_Scottish + 36.2% North_German @ 2.69
17 96.7% Irish + 3.3% Mari @ 2.69
18 95.2% Irish + 4.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.72
19 95.1% Irish + 4.9% Belorussian @ 2.72
20 83% West_Scottish + 17% North_Swedish @ 2.72

You also use that the DNA Tribes to claim you Dad has some Celtic admixture and they explained to me this about my results.


Denmark, England and Ireland share a huge number of genetic signatures, thus, as is shown in your populations admixture, while Denmark provides a slightly better fit for you, when it is removed from the population list, Ireland comes in into your admixture the highest (Iteration 2 in your output). This does not contradict your predominately Irish heritage (your top match is with Ireland, when each population is considered separately), but rather points to how difficult it is to differentiate between closely genetically related populations.

So my point is that especially Northwestern Europe whether they are labelled as "Celtic" or "Germanic" are very similar. I don't think any serious geneticist would dispute this and I would have thought you would have seen this as well as you look at a lot of this stuff.

There is no one that can say you can separate these population into "Celtic" or "Germanic" because that is not genetic as anyone looking into this in detail is well aware. To say otherwise is all bluster and frankly dubious. You can say someone is Irish or someone is Danish possibly but we know that there is a lot of similarities in their genetics. As I've said before if you look at genetic plots Northwest Europe is very interconnected.

Looking at ydna L21 is undoubtedly more common in places like Ireland but you can't say someone is Celtic because they have R1b-L21 or some other ydna because you can get an Irishman who is U106 so does that make him Germanic or a Norwegian that is L21 Celtic? We know that autosomally they will cluster relatively close.

[Peterski]

Neolithic ancestry survived Bell Beaker immigration, and I was arguing on Anthrogenica that pockets of Neolithic-descendants could survive in some regions much better than in other regions (resulting in higher levels of Neolithic ancestry in some areas of Britain):

https://i.imgur.com/A2UMbst.png

https://i.imgur.com/rDLoC2u.png

Unfortunately there are no samples from Southern Wales to check if more of Neolithic descendants survived there:

https://i.imgur.com/egmOAjc.png

Frequency of I2 haplogroup today (I2a2 is mostly from Neolithic farmers, I2a1 is likely from Mesolithic hunters):

https://i.imgur.com/RXH12Of.png

[Peterski]

We know what the Welsh breakdown is so I'm not sure what you are trying to prove? We know where Welsh people generally cluster.

First of all we know that the Welsh are not a homogeneous genetic group, but there are few different clusters within Wales.

Why are you opposed to the idea that some part of Wales might be genetically more Iberian-influenced than the rest of it?

[Grace O'Malley]

Who are those "early post-ice-age settlers", hunters or Neolithic farmers?

Didn't you just claim that Bell Beakers replaced all previous populations?

(I actually argued on Anthrogenica that in some regions more of Neolithic ancestry could survive than in other regions)

We also cannot exclude the possibility of some immigration from Iberia to Britain after Bell Beaker invasions (for example those accounts about the origin of Silures could reflect actual reality - actual immigration from Iberia or South-West France in historical times).

There were historically attested movements from Britain to Northern Iberia, so the opposite was possible too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britonia

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Britonia6hcentury.png/290px-Britonia6hcentury.png

You are really being obtuse here. The paper said that but we know that most Welsh like other Isles people are mostly descendent of Bell Beakers. You are making your own history here. We could claim all sorts of things. Didn't the Romans think that Ireland was closer to Europe than England or some such weirdness. As I've pointed out to you the PoBI and the IDA did a breakdown to the populations in the British Isles. Maybe the Eskimos came to Ireland as I sometimes get some of that in my population mix.

Can we stick to actual studies here and not conjecture? As I've said the populations of Britain and Ireland have been studied quite extensively compared to other Europeans. We know where they cluster and populations cluster with other populations that have similar components.

You've seen lots of my results. So what populations do I have most similarity with? I'm like most people in that part of the world as well so not out of the ordinary so I do know what the genetics of people are there. Whatever is in the Welsh has been looked at and they cluster with other people from the Isles.

[Grace O'Malley]

Neolithic ancestry survived Bell Beaker immigration, and I was arguing on Anthrogenica that pockets of Neolithic-descendants could survive in some regions much better than in other regions (resulting in higher levels of Neolithic ancestry in some areas of Britain):

https://i.imgur.com/A2UMbst.png

https://i.imgur.com/rDLoC2u.png

Unfortunately there are no samples from Southern Wales to check if more of Neolithic descendants survived there:

https://i.imgur.com/egmOAjc.png

Frequency of I2 haplogroup today (I2a2 is mostly from Neolithic farmers, I2a1 is likely from Mesolithic hunters):

https://i.imgur.com/RXH12Of.png

We already know that this might be the case more with the Southeast English more than other parts of the Isles. Still it isn't anything huge and the litmus test as I've said numerous times is where these populations cluster and who they cluster with. What they have other populations close to them have the same. All the British Isles clusters in Northwest Europe so they can't be too drastically different than Dutch for example.

[Peterski]

The paper said that but we know that most Welsh like other Isles people are mostly descendent of Bell Beakers.

We know they are mostly descended from Bell Beakers, but there could be multiple migration waves.

For example a Celtic-speaker living somewhere in Central Europe during the Iron Age was also mostly descended from Bell Beakers. As for Hallstatt Celts - there are two samples, and one of them clusters with the modern French, while the other one with the modern British.

You claimed that Hallstatt Celt does not cluster with the British, ignoring the fact that the other one does.

=====

RISE150 is a sample from Late Bronze Age western Poland, and it clusters with the modern Irish.

Then we have Hallstatt Celts from Central Europe, who also cluster with modern French (Gauls) and British.

And you are telling me, that there is no such thing as Celtic DNA but it is all geograpical?

No it is not geographical, there were Irish-like people in today's Austria who spoke Celtic.

[Grace O'Malley]

We know they are mostly descended from Bell Beakers, but there could be multiple migration waves.

For example a Celtic-speaker living somewhere in Central Europe during the Iron Age was also mostly descended from Bell Beakers. As for Hallstatt Celts - there are two samples, and one of them clusters with the modern French, while the other one with the modern British.

You claimed that Hallstatt Celt does not cluster with the British, ignoring the fact that the other one does.

I've never seen the other one only the one of Gedmatch. If you have the Gedmatch no of the other one I'd love to have it as it would be great if one clusters with the British Isles. That must be the one with some Central Asian genetics. I don't claim untruths only what I'm aware of. I've never seen any results for the other Hallstatt person I've only seen what was posted on Eurogenes Blog.

The Hallstatt one I've seen is more French like and got South German as the no 1 pop in one of the Gedmatch calculators.

[Grace O'Malley]

RISE150 is a sample from Late Bronze Age western Poland, and it clusters with the modern Irish.

Then we have Hallstatt Celts from Central Europe, who also cluster with modern French (Gauls!) and British.

And you are telling me, that there is no such thing as Celtic DNA but it is all geograpical?

No it is not geographical, there were Irish-like people in today's Austria who spoke Celtic.

That's pretty cool but is it on Gedmatch? It still doesn't change what I've said in that Irish are similar to people in their geographic vicinity whether they be Germanic or Celtic. It would be interesting to have a few results from Hallstatt and not just two but no it still doesn't prove "Celtic" dna. The Hallstatt Celt on Gedmatch isn't very Irish like so this is why I would like to see the other Genome. If it's not on Gedmatch than I hope it will be uploaded. You must really know that there is no "Celtic" dna Peterski? I mean wouldn't it be something to tell all these Celtic nuts on here that the Irish are the true Celts? :) We know though that the Celts were spread over a wide area and this particular Celt was U152 which is very low in places like Ireland.

I'm surprised you're arguing for this and here I am 'a Celt' looking at it objectively and coming to the conclusion that there is no Celtic dna. Just look at a population cluster map? The only Celts that cluster together are the Insular Celts. There is just no pure blood Celts and there most likely never was.

Just to clarify my last paragraph I'm speaking of genetics not culture or language.

If someone else wants to weigh in on this please add your comments.

[Peterski]

If you are right then people should stop expecting to get accurate results when they buy a DNA test. What you are saying is that there is more variation between individuals within the same population than between different regional populations.

[Grace O'Malley]

If you are right then people should stop expecting to get accurate results when they buy a DNA test. What you are saying is that there is more variation between individuals within the same population than between different regional populations.

They aren't the same thing. You are saying that "Celtic" is genetic. A dna test will tell you what people you match with in their population panels. They are based on modern populations not on deep ancestry. I suppose to a certain degree we use Gedmatch and similar sites to break down some of our deep ancestry. DNA tests like Ancestry and 23andMe are comparing you to people today from a certain country that they say represents what they call British & Irish (23andMe) or French & German. Modern DNA tests aren't even good at separating French and Germans so no they aren't going to tell you if you are Celtic or Germanic just if you match Irish people or Italian/Greek people etc. If they don't have a good population database they aren't going to be very good at even doing that. LivingDNA is a good example of what happens when you don't have enough representative populations to compare people's dna to.

[Peterski]

In modern populations there is also no guarantee.

You could see your results, you match closer with Danes and Dutch than with Irish.

[Grace O'Malley]

In modern populations there is also no guarantee.

You could see your results, you match closer with Danes and Dutch than with Irish.

I do match Irish people but if you look at Gedmatch and some of the other tests that are trying to be too specific than it can get a bit difficult. Any person from any nationality is going to look like a mixture of populations. Everyone will get breakdowns like that. For some reason with my genetics I've always been at that point where British Isles cluster with Scandinavia. Other Irish or British might get slightly different results e.g. some English appear to be more closer to Belgium and South Dutch. I think it is most likely due to ancient connections like Bell Beakers. If you look at British Bell Beakers they are very similar to Dutch Bell Beakers so there are some of the Bronze Age genetic similarity going on. Anyway it just shows my point about the Celtic/Germanic thing. I always match populations that are as much Germanic as Celtic. But all British and Irish are the same. That's why I'm saying you can't say what is Celtic or Germanic genetically. This has only been my observation looking at genetics for a period of time.

Even for someone who doesn't have the same interest you just have to look at dna cluster maps. Looking at something like Celtic just ask the question to people what they think is Celtic and what populations are Celtic and you will get a lot of different answers. It's quite simple really. The easiest thing is to look where populations cluster. Populations that cluster together will share more genes. Not sure why people have problems with this simple fact.

[Peterski]

If you look at British Bell Beakers they are very similar to Dutch Bell Beakers so there are some of the Bronze Age genetic similarity going on. Anyway it just shows my point about the Celtic/Germanic thing.

But were Dutch Bell Beakers Proto-Germanic? I do not think so. If anything it is much more likely that they were Celtic-speakers.

Germanic people settled the area of the Netherlands later, we can consider the Elp Culture as the first Germanic culture there.

The Elp Culture had very clear cultural ties to Scandinavia, and they also had R1b-U106 unlike older Dutch Bell Beakers.

[Bobby Martnen]

How is someone 10% or 20% of an ethnicity? :confused:

[LocoGorilla]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?257578-Take-a-look-at-my-desc&p=5388598#post5388598

YEMENI WAS HERE BITCH ASS HOESSSS

[Peterski]

I think it is most likely due to ancient connections like Bell Beakers.

I don't think so, I think you just have a lot of Norwegian Viking admixture.

Let's face it Grace, you are not a good example of a "Proto-Celtic" DNA sample.

It doesn't mean that Celtic is not genetic, it just means you aren't a pure Celt.

[Aren]

Modern day Brits aren't even the ones who are closest to the British and Dutch Bell Beakers.

Beaker_The_Netherlands

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic Norwegian Swedish Irish Shetlandic Dutch English
3.410445 3.501731 3.665182 4.054541 4.165060 4.191246 4.655772

Beaker_Britain

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic Norwegian Swedish Irish Dutch Shetlandic English
2.816001 2.837376 3.130698 3.291429 3.461117 3.487468 3.850536

Now the Dutch sample is mainly southern Dutch and the Irish sample is quite Scandinavian shifted in comparison to what most Irish score, but either way it's quite clear Scandinavians are closer to the Bell Beakers than any modern day living Celtic population.

In fact modern day Scandinavians prefer the Beakers over the Corded Ware/Battle Axe samples

"distance%=2.2208"

Norwegian

Beaker_The_Netherlands,84.4
Globular_Amphora,15.6
Battle_Axe_Sweden,0

Not all R1b-P312 guys were proto-Italo-Celtic, that would be like saying all of the J2 Iran_N heavy dudes belonged to the same language family when we know that in ancient Mideast there were several language isolates just within Mesopotamia.

[Peterski]

Modern day Brits aren't even the ones who are closest to the British and Dutch Bell Beakers.

Beaker_The_Netherlands

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic Norwegian Swedish Irish Shetlandic Dutch English
3.410445 3.501731 3.665182 4.054541 4.165060 4.191246 4.655772

Beaker_Britain

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic Norwegian Swedish Irish Dutch Shetlandic English
2.816001 2.837376 3.130698 3.291429 3.461117 3.487468 3.850536

Now the Dutch sample is mainly southern Dutch and the Irish sample is quite Scandinavian shifted in comparison to what most Irish score, but either way it's quite clear Scandinavians are closer to the Bell Beakers than any modern day living Celtic population.

I think that Global25 is not perfectly accurate.

Do you have their Eurogenes K36 results too?


In fact modern day Scandinavians prefer the Beakers over the Corded Ware/Battle Axe samples

I think this approach based on coordinates (that Davidski chose in G25) instead of admixtures is not the best.

=====

Do you have a Global25 spreadsheet with only ancient samples and another one with only modern samples?

I've been trying to find such two versions but with no success so far.

Splitting ancient and modern samples into two spreadsheets is a lot of work, and they are not even described (there are no clear labels saying which populations are ancient and which modern, and sometimes it is hard to tell based on names alone).

[J. Ketch]

I don't think so, I think you just have a lot of Norwegian Viking admixture.

Let's face it Grace, you are not a good example of a "Proto-Celtic" DNA sample.

It doesn't mean that Celtic is not genetic, it just means you aren't a pure Celt.
Could you give an example of an ancient sample that is near to 'pure Celt' in your eyes?

My father gets pretty damn close to German Bell Beaker (1.4 distance) and also shows a Scandinavian correlation in calcs, much more so than French.

[Peterski]

My father gets pretty damn close to German Bell Beaker (1.4 distance)

But a German Bell Beaker was not a Germanic-speaker, do you realize this? More likely it was a Celt.

There were no Germanic-speaking people in what is now Central and Southern Germany at that time.

[J. Ketch]

But a German Bell Beaker was not a Germanic-speaker, do you realize this? More likely it was a Celt.

There were no Germanic-speaking people in what is now Central and Southern Germany at that time.
Yes, I know. Is that your idea of a prototypical Celt?

My fully Irish father (Living DNA data mind you)

MDLP K11

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 WHG 38.23
2 Neolithic 33.32
3 EHG 25.29
4 Iran-Mesolithic 1.67
5 ASI 1.01


Finished reading population data. 161 populations found.
11 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Bell_Beaker_Germany @ 1.443727
2 Alberstedt_LN @ 1.957030
3 British_Celtic @ 2.348836
4 Halberstadt_LBA @ 3.423562
5 British_IronAge @ 4.771179
6 Bell_Beaker_Czech @ 5.531140
7 British_AngloSaxon @ 6.719901
8 Nordic_MN_B @ 7.270337
9 Nordic_BA @ 7.649047
10 Nordic_LN @ 7.858841

Eurogenes K15

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 37.9
2 Atlantic 27.78
3 Baltic 12.81
4 Eastern_Euro 11.25
5 West_Med 8.28
6 West_Asian 1.23
7 Oceanian 0.3
8 South_Asian 0.21
9 Sub-Saharan 0.13
10 Amerindian 0.11

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Dutch 3.47
2 Danish 3.72
3 West_Scottish 4.51
4 Norwegian 4.64
5 Irish 4.85
6 Southeast_English 5.3
7 West_Norwegian 5.49
8 Orcadian 5.52
9 Southwest_English 5.89
10 Swedish 6.11

[Peterski]

My fully Irish father (Living DNA data mind you)

MDLP K11

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 WHG 38.23
2 Neolithic 33.32
3 EHG 25.29
4 Iran-Mesolithic 1.67
5 ASI 1.01


Finished reading population data. 161 populations found.
11 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Bell_Beaker_Germany @ 1.443727
2 Alberstedt_LN @ 1.957030
3 British_Celtic @ 2.348836
4 Halberstadt_LBA @ 3.423562
5 British_IronAge @ 4.771179
6 Bell_Beaker_Czech @ 5.531140
7 British_AngloSaxon @ 6.719901
8 Nordic_MN_B @ 7.270337
9 Nordic_BA @ 7.649047
10 Nordic_LN @ 7.858841

I highlighted (bold font) samples that are Germanic - as you can see his distance to them is significantly larger.

As for "Bell_Beaker_Czech", that is DNA from some bones found close to Bronze Age Bell Beaker artifacts, but radiocarbon dating later revealed, that the bones are actually much younger - dating back to the Early Middle Ages - and the samples were renamed as Czech Slavs:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/05/two-early-slavs-from-bohemia.html

So he is actually closer to Early Czech Slavs (who also had some Celtic DNA from Slavicized Boii) than to Early Anglo-Saxons.

[Aren]

I think that Global25 is not perfectly accurate.

Do you have their Eurogenes K36 results too?



I think this approach based on coordinates (that Davidski chose in G25) instead of admixtures is not the best.

=====

Do you have a Global25 spreadsheet with only ancient samples and another one with only modern samples?

I've been trying to find such two versions but with no success so far.

Splitting ancient and modern samples into two spreadsheets is a lot of work, and they are not even described (there are no clear labels saying which populations are ancient and which modern, and sometimes it is hard to tell based on names alone).

I can agree some accurate and logical ADMIXTURE runs can be better, but the PCA based runs are easier to run as an amateur.

You can find the British Beaker gedmatch kits here (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?241062-British-Beakers-(Olalde-2018)-on-Gedmatch)

As for the spreadsheet, there is only one and it has both ancients and moderns. Ancient samples are marked with BA, IA, N etc.

[Aren]

I highlighted (bold font) samples that are Germanic - as you can see his distance to them is significantly larger.

As for "Bell_Beaker_Czech", that is DNA from some bones found close to Bronze Age Bell Beaker artifacts, but radiocarbon dating later revealed, that the bones are actually much younger - dating back to the Early Middle Ages - and the samples were renamed as Czech Slavs:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/05/two-early-slavs-from-bohemia.html

So he is actually closer to Early Czech Slavs (who also had some Celtic DNA from Slavicized Boii) than to Early Anglo-Saxons.

But this is also a horrible calculator itself. No European scores that high WHG, it seems like CHG component has been eaten up by EHG or something and the non-ANE part of EHG has gone to the WHG component.
Besides a fully South Swede scores like this

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 WHG 40.99
2 Neolithic 31.82
3 EHG 24.12
4 Iran-Mesolithic 1.85


Finished reading population data. 161 populations found.
11 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Bell_Beaker_Germany @ 3.001984
2 Halberstadt_LBA @ 3.152807
3 British_IronAge @ 3.344115
4 Alberstedt_LN @ 3.632130
5 Bell_Beaker_Czech @ 4.076632
6 British_AngloSaxon @ 4.079318
7 British_Celtic @ 4.274887
8 Nordic_BA @ 5.501684
9 Unetice_EBA @ 6.334434
10 Nordic_LN @ 6.398916
11 Nordic_MN_B @ 6.527209
12 BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN @ 8.272193
13 Nordic_IA @ 8.436583
14 Nordic_LBA @ 8.794908
15 Corded_Ware_Proto_Unetice_Poland @ 9.860562
16 Nordic_BattleAxe @ 11.335046
17 Corded_Ware_Estonia @ 12.576883
18 Unetice_MBA @ 13.745328
19 Irish_BA @ 13.749458
20 Bell_Beaker @ 13.917373

Closer to the Beakers than to even the Anglo-Saxons.

[J. Ketch]

I highlighted (bold font) samples that are Germanic - as you can see his distance to them is significantly larger.

As for "Bell_Beaker_Czech", that is DNA from some bones found close to Bronze Age Bell Beaker artifacts, but radiocarbon dating later revealed, that the bones are actually much younger - dating back to the Early Middle Ages - and the samples were renamed as Czech Slavs:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/05/two-early-slavs-from-bohemia.html

So he is actually closer to Early Czech Slavs (who also had some Celtic DNA from Slavicized Boii) than to Early Anglo-Saxons.
From what I've seen of other's results on MDLP K11, all NW Europeans are close to Bell Beaker/Alberstedt/British Celtic, as Aren said, certain Germanics tend to be even closer than modern Celts, that is reflected in the fact that my father's closest population in K15 is North Dutch.

If that is the proto-Celt then really it's proof that Celts have always been similar to Germanics, arguably more so in the past.

[Peterski]

Alberstedt sample was IIRC a mix of Bell Beaker and Corded Ware.


I Ancient samples are marked with BA, IA, N etc.

Not always. Okay I think I will take my time and divide it into a modern spreadsheet and an ancient one.

[Grace O'Malley]

I don't think so, I think you just have a lot of Norwegian Viking admixture.

Let's face it Grace, you are not a good example of a "Proto-Celtic" DNA sample.

It doesn't mean that Celtic is not genetic, it just means you aren't a pure Celt.

You don't know that for a fact though. That Norwegian-like admixture could be old and related to Bronze Age populations. As I've said Insular Celts could always have been like this. It is difficult to say what a "pure Celt" is.