Alternative history: What if Turks first encountered and adopted Christianity instead of Islam?

[Thanas Django]

What do you guys think would happen if Turks encountered and adopted a Christian type of culture instead of immersing themselves in Islam and establishing themselves as a Caliphate?

What would happen if they somehow first encountered and were enchanted by Christian Byzantium instead of Muslim Persia?

How would it have played then and how would it conclude today?

geographically, culturally, politically.

[itilvolga]

Edited

[Thanas Django]

http://i.hizliresim.com/aYA5RO.gif

http://i.hizliresim.com/aYA5RO.gif

This picture is not visible, visiting the site sends you to an error screen.

[arkas]

They would have then become the conquered and not the conqueror.

[itilvolga]

http://i.hizliresim.com/aYA5RO.gif

This picture is not visible, visiting the site sends you to an error screen.

anyway if you really wonder what would be happen, look at Gagauz Turks.

[Böri]

The world in late Middle Ages wasn't as backward as many thinks. There were people who were travelling, spreading faiths and making propaganda.

The Turks (Oghuz people) lived inside Khazarian Khaganate and were exposed to both Jewish and Christian propaganda, however this was both rejected.

Judaism appeared weird and mysterious, probably why that didn't make through. Christianity lost from the very beginning, since the worship of humans, icons and statues were very strange and not compatible with Turks who had Siberian shamanic and Tengrianist mentality. Even today Yakuts, despite 300 years of constant Russian Orthodox propaganda are still not Christian truly.

We must also emphasize Turks rejected the Islam brought by Arabs. Sogdian missionaries were successful among the Turks. Not Arabs. Turks were lured into Sogdian version of Islam which posed that as a human and popular faith, while rejecting the Arab Islam which was an ethno-religious chauvinism Arabizing folks and spreading by the sword. See today, Arameans, Coptes, Berbers and many other cultures were wiped out by Arab Islam.

[Yaglakar]

Türks did not adopt Islam. The Türk volk vanished/seized to exist.

[Böri]

Türks did not adopt Islam. The Türk volk vanished/seized to exist.

When you say Turks, that's only Oghuz people. Karluks like Uighurs and Uzbeks are Turkic but not Turks.

[Bosniensis]

What do you guys think would happen if Turks encountered and adopted a Christian type of culture instead of immersing themselves in Islam and establishing themselves as a Caliphate?

What would happen if they somehow first encountered and were enchanted by Christian Byzantium instead of Muslim Persia?

How would it have played then and how would it conclude today?

geographically, culturally, politically.

It would be same. Turks had more Soldiers than Romans but they did not have citizens. They were nomads.

It's just instead Ottoman Empire you would have Roman Empire, and they would be absorbed the same way as today.

Turkic influence isn't alien in Constantinople. Even before Turks, Roman Emperor Leo the Khazar had Turkic blood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_IV_the_Khazar

[Yaglakar]

When you say Turks, that's only Oghuz people. Karluks like Uighurs and Uzbeks are Turkic but not Turks.

Oghuz are from Mongolia. The Caspian-Aral Oghuz is the smaller branch of Mongolia's Oghuz. But they don't teach you that in Turkey, do they? Uzbeks and Uighurs are not Qarluqs. There is merely Qarluq layer within these groups. The same way you not Oghuz, because the most Oghuz and Toquz Oghuz remained in Mongolia, and nominal Oghuz branch has an Oghuz layer among others.

[IncelSlayer]

It would be same. Turks had more Soldiers than Romans but they did not have citizens. They were nomads.

It's just instead Ottoman Empire you would have Roman Empire, and they would be absorbed the same way as today.

Turkic influence isn't alien in Constantinople. Even before Turks, Roman Emperor Leo the Khazar had Turkic blood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_IV_the_Khazar

You can't destroy an empire, occupy its territory then create a new empire and claim descent from the previous empire.How would it be absorbed the same way, when the Ottoman Empire was an empire of slaves,merchats and converts, below dogs, while the Byzantine Empire was the most adavanced empire ever?More so,the Roman Empire couldn't have continued with Ottomans,with the latest roman emperor, Constantine XI, dead.

[Yaglakar]

What do you guys think would happen if Turks encountered and adopted a Christian type of culture instead of immersing themselves in Islam and establishing themselves as a Caliphate?

What would happen if they somehow first encountered and were enchanted by Christian Byzantium instead of Muslim Persia?

How would it have played then and how would it conclude today?

geographically, culturally, politically.

Turkic Nestorian Christians

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Palm_Sunday_%28probably%29%2C_Khocho%2C_Nestorian_ Temple%2C_683-770_AD%2C_wall_painting_-_Ethnological_Museum%2C_Berlin_-_DSC01741.JPG/2560px-Palm_Sunday_%28probably%29%2C_Khocho%2C_Nestorian_ Temple%2C_683-770_AD%2C_wall_painting_-_Ethnological_Museum%2C_Berlin_-_DSC01741.JPG
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/f5/cd/f8/f5cdf8dec4bb50a169378db4900bfb81--buddhist-art-silk-road.jpg

[Bosniensis]

You can't destroy an empire, occupy its territory then create a new empire and claim descent from the previous empire.How would it be absorbed the same way, when the Ottoman Empire was an empire of slaves,merchats and converts, below dogs, while the Byzantine Empire was the most adavanced empire ever?More so,the Roman Empire couldn't have continued with Ottomans,with the latest roman emperor, Constantine XI, dead.

Constantine XI was Greek from Fathers side, and Serb from Mothers side (Helena Dragaš)

Mehmed II was Greek from Fathers side (Descended from John "Tzepeles Celebi" Komnenos who was grand father of Osman Ghazi) and Serb from Mothers side (Mara Branković)

Two completely identical people with different beliefs.

[Böri]

Nestorians were rejected by mainstream Christians in council of 451. Nestorius said Jesus had two separate natures, one god and one human, the Trinity becoming Square. They declared him kafir and risked his life. Nestorianism was a rejected offshot of Christianity which live some times in parts of Asia before extinguishing.

Again when OP tells about ''Turks converting to Christianity'' that's not all Turkic people. Not like Uighurs turning Manihean sometimes, Buddhist some other times you know. When they say Turks that's Turkic Khaganates, Western Turks then Turgesh than the Oghuz peoples.


Constantine XI was Greek from Fathers side, and Serb from Mothers side (Helena Dragaš)

Mehmed II was Greek from Fathers side (Descended from John "Tzepeles Celebi" Komnenos who was grand father of Osman Ghazi) and Serb from Mothers side (Mara Branković)

Two completely identical people with different beliefs.

Slanderer. Ertuğrul the father of Osman did exist and that's documented.
Your slutty personality proves even your faith can be questioned. What else to expect from converts who converted for material benefits? Pfff...

[IncelSlayer]

Constantine XI was Greek from Fathers side, and Serb from Mothers side (Helena Dragaš)

Mehmed II was Greek from Fathers side (Descended from John "Tzepeles Celebi" Komnenos who was grand father of Osman Ghazi) and Serb from Mothers side (Mara Branković)

Two completely identical people with different beliefs.

Doesn't matter, he had no legitimacy.Now according to you, if 100 millions muslims were to raid and conquer Nederlands right now, it would be the same Nederlands as before muslims.

[Bosniensis]

Doesn't matter, he had no legitimacy.Now according to you, if 100 millions muslims were to raid and conquer Nederlands right now, it would be the same Nederlands as before muslims.

No. Mehmed II as part of Komnenos convert dynasty already had claims to throne.

John II Komnenos (John the Beautiful) ruled as illegitimate Emperor according to Isaac Komnenos (His Brother) who claimed that his son John (later convert to Islam) had right to the Throne, they even tried to overthrow John the Beautiful.

Isaac's son John converted to Islam and Married Daught of Turkic Seljuk Ruler Mesud I, and their grand son was Osman Ghazi who was basically Komnenos from Paternal Side and Turkic from his Mother Side.

Mehmed II identified himself as Komnenos and legitimate claimant on Byzantine Throne that became Ottoman Empire.

[Bornoz]

I wouldn't exist today.

[Böri]

their grand son was Osman Ghazi who was basically Komnenos from Paternal Side and Turkic from his Mother Side.

Mehmed II identified himself as Komnenos and legitimate claimant on Byzantine Throne that became Ottoman Empire.

Show proof, you lying hypocrite deluded Serb convert who betrayed the religion of his ancestors for tax breaks and career opportunities.

[IncelSlayer]

mongrel babble

Effect of inbreeding on IQ and mental retardation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC392897/
https://www.nature.com/articles/266440a0
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289608001608

[Bosniensis]

Show proof, you lying hypocrite deluded Serb convert who betrayed the religion of his ancestors for tax breaks and career opportunities.

Byzantium:The Decline and Fall ISBN 0-679-41650-1 page 81-82

"Mehmed also had a blood lineage to the Byzantine Imperial family: his predecessor, Sultan Orhan I, had married a Byzantine princess, and Mehmed claimed descent from John Tzelepes Komnenos"


Further more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Muslims

John Tzelepes Komnenos - (Greek: Ἰωάννης Κομνηνὸς Τζελέπης) son of Isaac Komnenos (d. 1154). Starting about 1130 John and his father, who was a brother of Emperor John II Komnenos ("John the Beautiful"), plotted to overthrow his uncle the emperor. They made various plans and alliances with the Danishmend leader and other Turks who held parts of Asia Minor. In 1138 John and his father had a reconciliation with the Emperor, and received a full pardon. In 1139 John accompanied the emperor on his campaign in Asia Minor. In 1140 at the siege of Neocaesarea he defected. As John Julius Norwich puts it, he did so by "embracing simultaneously the creed of Islam and the daughter of the Seljuk Sultan Mesud I." John Komnenos' by-name, Tzelepes, is believed to be a Greek rendering of the Turkish honorific Çelebi, a term indicating noble birth or "gentlemanly conduct". The Ottoman Sultans claimed descent from John Komnenos.

Byzantine Historians

Demetrios Chalkondyles (1423–1511), referring to an Islamized Christian noble: "... This Mahmud, son of Michael, is Triballian, which means Serbian, by his mother, and Greek by his father."[26] or Mehmed the Conqueror when referring to the plundering of Serbia

He is quoted in Official Greek History books like: History of the Greek nation by C. Paparrigopoulos

[Böri]

By the way ''OSMAN GHAZI'' is a Muslim fabrication.
Not only his father had a non-Muslim Turkic name, that is Ertuğrul (and father of Ertuğrul also didn't have Muslim name).
Tuğrul is like Hungarian Turul, a holy bird in Tengrist religion.

The real name of Ertuğrul's son was Atman or Ataman. We have Byzantine contemporary source, Pechymeres.

Byzantines always recorded Muslims with name Osman as Othman. But Pechymeres refers to Ottoman's father as Atman.
Here record of Pechymeres.
https://preview.ibb.co/kNFitU/atman.png

Ottomans later Islamized their father's name with Osman through distortions.

Ataman's father was Ertuğrul (Turkic name), his brothers were Savji and Gündüz (Turkic names).
Ataman named his son as Orkhan (Turkic name), why would he have a Muslim name?

[Pribislav]

The world in late Middle Ages wasn't as backward as many thinks. There were people who were travelling, spreading faiths and making propaganda.

The Turks (Oghuz people) lived inside Khazarian Khaganate and were exposed to both Jewish and Christian propaganda, however this was both rejected.

Judaism appeared weird and mysterious, probably why that didn't make through. Christianity lost from the very beginning, since the worship of humans, icons and statues were very strange and not compatible with Turks who had Siberian shamanic and Tengrianist mentality. Even today Yakuts, despite 300 years of constant Russian Orthodox propaganda are still not Christian truly.

We must also emphasize Turks rejected the Islam brought by Arabs. Sogdian missionaries were successful among the Turks. Not Arabs. Turks were lured into Sogdian version of Islam which posed that as a human and popular faith, while rejecting the Arab Islam which was an ethno-religious chauvinism Arabizing folks and spreading by the sword. See today, Arameans, Coptes, Berbers and many other cultures were wiped out by Arab Islam.

If I understand you Turks adopted islam in central Asia before migration to the Middle East and Anatolia?

[Austrvegr]

Judaism appeared weird and mysterious, probably why that didn't make through

Actually, it did. First Seljuks were vassals of Jewish Khazars and adopted Judaism. Just look at their names. They also had a "house of prayer", which for sure was a synagogue.

[IncelSlayer]

Mongrel Babble

Where's the proof?Inside of your ass.Turks always tried to emulate the Byzantines, fake stories like this are a part of.It wouldn't even matter if what you said is true.Why?I told you before.The Ottomans were invaders,Mehmed II had no legitimacy for the Roman Emperor title because he was never crowned by a superior authority.Fuck outta here.

https://media.giphy.com/media/Vg0JstydL8HCg/giphy.gif

[Böri]

If I understand you Turks adopted islam in central Asia before migration to the Middle East and Anatolia?

Allright. Without being conquered by any Muslim state or army. When Arabs tried during 8th century, we destroyed their attempts. They could conquer only until Sogdians, no beyond.
Later these Sogdians showed Islam as a non-Arab popular faith to Turks and their missionary activities succeeded.

[Bosniensis]

Where's the proof?Inside of your ass.Turks always tried to emulate the Byzantines, fake stories like this are a part of.It wouldn't even matter if what you said is true.Why?I told you before.The Ottomans were invaders,Mehmed II had no legitimacy for the Roman Emperor title because he was never crowned by a superior authority.Fuck outta here.

https://media.giphy.com/media/Vg0JstydL8HCg/giphy.gif

In Roman Empire, Emperor is the one who claim the throne through Strength and Power and Valid Royal Claim!

Only Indo-Germanic (Indo-European) people "proclaim rulers" by Pope.

Also, Ecumenal Patriarch Gennadios II recognized his Authority, All Orthodoxes accepted his government in exchange for protection against "barbarians" aka. Catholics.

"Superior Authority" ... you are too young obviously and know nothing how Roman Empire worked.

[Bosniensis]

By the way ''OSMAN GHAZI'' is a Muslim fabrication.
Not only his father had a non-Muslim Turkic name, that is Ertuğrul (and father of Ertuğrul also didn't have Muslim name).
Tuğrul is like Hungarian Turul, a holy bird in Tengrist religion.

The real name of Ertuğrul's son was Atman or Ataman. We have Byzantine contemporary source, Pechymeres.

Byzantines always recorded Muslims with name Osman as Othman. But Pechymeres refers to Ottoman's father as Atman.
Here record of Pechymeres.
https://preview.ibb.co/kNFitU/atman.png

Ottomans later Islamized their father's name with Osman through distortions.

Ataman's father was Ertuğrul (Turkic name), his brothers were Savji and Gündüz (Turkic names).
Ataman named his son as Orkhan (Turkic name), why would he have a Muslim name?

That's a theory, I believe that he is Turkified Byzantine (like all other Turks who became Turkified from something). He is no less Turk or Byzantine in that matter.

[Thanas Django]

The thread is flying off to a tangent because of Bosniensis.

However, I am interested in the story behind Turks mass converting to Islam as a nation before Manzikert.

[Thanas Django]

since the worship of humans, icons and statues were very strange and not compatible with Turks who had Siberian shamanic and Tengrianist mentality.

I don't recall Eastern Christianity having any statues in display.

[Böri]

That's a theory, I believe that he is Turkified Byzantine (like all other Turks who became Turkified from something). He is no less Turk or Byzantine in that matter.

Muslim Greeks would name their children after Arabic or Persian names.
Ever wondered why even the second Ottoman Bey had a Turkic name (Orkhan).
First Arabic name appears with Murad, who won at Kosovo in 1389 AD. And Murad is not a religious Arabic name, that means Good Wish.


The thread is flying off to a tangent because of Bosniensis.

However, I am interested in the story behind Turks mass converting to Islam as a nation before Manzikert.

In the beginning Arabs conquer all Iranic regions of southern Central Asia. They try to arabize locals, that doesn't work. However the native Sogdians, Khwarezmians adopt Islam.
Some Arabs even invented hadiths, where supposedly the Prophet of Islam would have said ''Arabic is the language of Paradise, while Persian is the language spoken in Hell''.
Still Arabs can't arabize the Iranics.

Anyway, later those Islamicized Iranians started to create their own states as clients of Umayyads. They later catch up some Karluks and islamize them.
Later that Sogdian version of Islam which is non-Arab and perceived as Popular Faith (like Christianity or Buddhism) starts to spread.

At some point during the 10th century, the Khazarians lose control over Turks (Oghuz people).
And we see Islam started to spread. One tribe converts another.
Arab traveller Ibn Fadlan reports in 920's that few of Oghuz Turks are Muslim, still minority.

Then that conversion starts spreading during next decades and ending in a Muslim vs Non-Muslim civil war.
The Seljuk family leads the converts. They lose civil war.
Then they move to more south east and create their state in coming years.
By 1070, they already occupy all of Iran and most of ME and Transcaucasia.

[IncelSlayer]

In Roman Empire, Emperor is the one who claim the throne through Strength and Power and Valid Royal Claim!

Only Indo-Germanic (Indo-European) people "proclaim rulers" by Pope.

Also, Ecumenal Patriarch Gennadios II recognized his Authority, All Orthodoxes accepted his government in exchange for protection against "barbarians" aka. Catholics.

"Superior Authority" ... you are too young obviously and know nothing how Roman Empire worked.

Stop pulling shit out of your ass and paint it as a fact, the right of conquest can't justify the title of the Roman Emperor.Gennadius recognised Mehmed II for property rights and it doesnt mean jack shit since he was installed
by Mehmed II.Your whole existence is an insult, there are retards in sanatoriums who have more common sense than you and yet you're free.


That's a theory, I believe that he is Turkified Byzantine (like all other Turks who became Turkified from something). He is no less Turk or Byzantine in that matter.

No one cares of pseudo-theories an inbred muslim invents.

[Thanas Django]

Muslim Greeks would name their children after Arabic or Persian names.
Ever wondered why even the second Ottoman Bey had a Turkic name (Orkhan).
First Arabic name appears with Murad, who won at Kosovo in 1389 AD. And Murad is not a religious Arabic name, that means Good Wish.



In the beginning Arabs conquer all Iranic regions of southern Central Asia. They try to arabize locals, that doesn't work. However the native Sogdians, Khwarezmians adopt Islam.
Some Arabs even invented hadiths, where supposedly the Prophet of Islam would have said ''Arabic is the language of Paradise, while Persian is the language spoken in Hell''.
Still Arabs can't arabize the Iranics.

Anyway, later those Islamicized Iranians started to create their own states as clients of Umayyads. They later catch up some Karluks and islamize them.
Later that Sogdian version of Islam which is non-Arab and perceived as Popular Faith (like Christianity or Buddhism) starts to spread.

At some point during the 10th century, the Khazarians lose control over Turks (Oghuz people).
And we see Islam started to spread. One tribe converts another.
Arab traveller Ibn Fadlan reports in 920's that few of Oghuz Turks are Muslim, still minority.

Then that conversion starts spreading during next decades and ending in a Muslim vs Non-Muslim civil war.
The Seljuk family leads the converts. They lose civil war.
Then they move to more south east and create their state in coming years.
By 1070, they already occupy all of Iran and most of ME and Transcaucasia.

Thank you.

I'll put effort to read more into this topic.


Having said that, how would you personally think it would play out if instead the Turks were Christianised instead of Islamised?

I am interested in your personal opinion.

In scenario A: Let's say that Arabs are still there, but Byzantines and Iranians switched places and a form of Christianity without "pictures and statues and worship of men" which is presented to Turks who convert.

In scenario B: Everything remains as is, but Turks spontaneously become Christian.

[Böri]

how would you personally think it would play out if instead the Turks were Christianised instead of Islamised?


The history of the whole middle ages and the world would be different.
There wouldn't be Crusades, Byzantium would exist longer, Islam would be only a religion practiced in Arabian desert.
Christianity would have spread toward India and China. And more.

[IncelSlayer]

Turks would've never adopted Christianity.Why?Because Christianity promises soul salvation while Islam promises carnal awards, 72 virgins, all the pre-teen boys you can get and your weight in gold.

[Bosniensis]

Stop pulling shit out of your ass and paint it as a fact, the right of conquest can't justify the title of the Roman Emperor.Gennadius recognised Mehmed II for property rights and it doesnt mean jack shit since he was installed
by Mehmed II.Your whole existence is an insult, there are retards in sanatoriums who have more common sense than you and yet you're free.


What makes you more tolerant that ISIS headchopers? Don't you see how extreme you are?

[Yaglakar]

The thread is flying off to a tangent because of Bosniensis.

However, I am interested in the story behind Turks mass converting to Islam as a nation before Manzikert.

First my friend you have to understand who are Türks. Türk is not an encompassing family like Slav or Iranic, but rather a distinct ethnonym of a seperate "volk" (people/nation). Historical Türks perished. This is the position of overwhelming majority of historians.


Here's how ethnonym Türk that was initially an autonym/self designation of a separate distinct Turkic people (who ceased to exist) became an exonym that was applied by Arabs, Persians, Greeks and Chinese to the rest of Turkic population, leading to the adoption of ethnonym Türk by other Turkic tribes.

https://i.imgur.com/JKi7a6e.png
https://i.imgur.com/ugk4xsE.png
Peter B. Golden. An Introduction to the History of the Turkic Peoples: Ethnogenesis and State-formation in Medieval and Early Modern Eurasia and the Middle East. Harrassowitz Verlag. pages 115-116

Now back to your question "the story behind Turks mass converting to Islam"

The answer is simple, Turkic populations including the nominal Oghuz branch did not possess any form of organized religion. It is easier to fill an empty mind rather than a full one.

[Thanas Django]

The history of the whole middle ages and the world would be different.
There wouldn't be Crusades, Byzantium would exist longer, Islam would be only a religion practiced in Arabian desert.
Christianity would have spread toward India and China. And more.


My thoughts on the topic.

Trade routes would remain open.

America would be discovered much much later.

Western Europe would be less relevant today.

Greece and Turkey would not exist today.

[Bornoz]

Turks would've never adopted Christianity.Why?Because Christianity promises soul salvation while Islam promises carnal awards, 72 virgins, all the pre-teen boys you can get and your weight in gold.

I insult people very very rare in here but I swear I have never seen such a mf like you in here before.
You have nothing to do with positive science, you don't have analytical intelligence, you probably don't have a degree on even the shittiest university's shittiest department. Just an anthrotard SOB with a great hate on Turks, nothing else.
I wish you to die alone in pain from your god

[Catarinense1998]

Turks would be our brothers. A pity. Turkey would be more civilized and better. Maybe God is planning something in the near future to Turkey.

[Thanas Django]

Turks would be our brothers. A pity. Turkey would be more civilized and better. Maybe God is planning something in the near future to Turkey.

I think they would make their own sect of Christianity, more polemic in nature.

[IncelSlayer]

I insult people very very rare in here but I swear I have never seen such a mf like you in here before.
You have nothing to do with positive science, you don't have analytical intelligence, you probably don't have a degree on even the shittiest university's shittiest department. Just an anthrotard SOB with a great hate on Turks, nothing else.
I wish you to die alone in pain from your god

Didn't read your off-topic garbage.

https://media.giphy.com/media/Hwq45iwTIUBGw/giphy.gif

[Thanas Django]

First my friend you have to understand who are Türks. Türk is not an encompassing family like Slav or Iranic, but rather a distinct ethnonym of a seperate "volk" (people/nation). Historical Türks perished. This is the position of overwhelming majority of historians.



Now back to your question "the story behind Turks mass converting to Islam"

The answer is simple, Turkic populations including the nominal Oghuz branch did not possess any form of organized religion. It is easier to fill an empty mind rather than a full one.

Thanx for the read kind sir.

[Nanushka]

In the beginning Arabs conquer all Iranic regions of southern Central Asia. They try to arabize locals, that doesn't work. However the native Sogdians, Khwarezmians adopt Islam.
Some Arabs even invented hadiths, where supposedly the Prophet of Islam would have said ''Arabic is the language of Paradise, while Persian is the language spoken in Hell''.
Still Arabs can't arabize the Iranics.

Anyway, later those Islamicized Iranians started to create their own states as clients of Umayyads. They later catch up some Karluks and islamize them.
Later that Sogdian version of Islam which is non-Arab and perceived as Popular Faith (like Christianity or Buddhism) starts to spread.

At some point during the 10th century, the Khazarians lose control over Turks (Oghuz people).
And we see Islam started to spread. One tribe converts another.
Arab traveller Ibn Fadlan reports in 920's that few of Oghuz Turks are Muslim, still minority.

Then that conversion starts spreading during next decades and ending in a Muslim vs Non-Muslim civil war.
The Seljuk family leads the converts. They lose civil war.
Then they move to more south east and create their state in coming years.
By 1070, they already occupy all of Iran and most of ME and Transcaucasia.

I accept the Sogdian effect on Turks in turning Islam but where is the Volga Bulgars in this story? Werent they the first to accept Islam after 910s after negotiations with Abbasid caliph against Khazars ? I remember reading about it in Ibn Fadlan's chronicles in 13.Tribe. I think conversion took place in many locations and many places among Turkic peoples around the same time back then

[Böri]

I accept the Sogdian effect on Turks in turning Islam but where is the Volga Bulgars in this story? Werent they the first to accept Islam after 910s after negotiations with Abbasid caliph against Khazars ? I remember reading about it in Ibn Fadlan's chronicles in 13.Tribe. I think conversion took place in many locations and many places among Turkic peoples around the same time back then
Volga Bulgars were an island to the north, their deal with Abbasid and Ibn Fadlan were political. The Oghuz Turks didn't have a geographical continuity with them and were more exposed to Khwarezmian effects.

[Bobby Martnen]

What do you guys think would happen if Turks encountered and adopted a Christian type of culture instead of immersing themselves in Islam and establishing themselves as a Caliphate?

What would happen if they somehow first encountered and were enchanted by Christian Byzantium instead of Muslim Persia?

How would it have played then and how would it conclude today?

geographically, culturally, politically.

I would like them better.

[juliachild]

Islam was more advanced at that time than Christianity

[Kamal900]

Doesn't make much difference honestly. I mean, Blacks of Haiti or Africa for example are Christians, and yet, are they on par with Europeans in terms of quality of life and stability in their respective nations? Sure, things would have been more quieter but that's about it.

[Evrim]

Doesn't make much difference honestly. I mean, Blacks of Haiti or Africa for example are Christians, and yet, are they on par with Europeans in terms of quality of life and stability in their respective nations? Sure, things would have been more quieter but that's about it.

Well, who stopped crusaders in Anatolia? Who made bulk of Mameluke army? Fredrick Barbarossa and his army was defeated in Western Anatolia by hit and run tactics. If we had been Christians, I think today, there would be no Islam or they would be a small minority. We may not be so civilized, but we were good warriors. I wish we had been Christians, today we would be still a Near Eastern society, but with less religions, since Christianity is easier to turn into atheism/agnostism/deism.

[Kamal900]

Well, who stopped crusaders in Anatolia? Who made bulk of Mameluke army? Fredrick Barbarossa and his army was defeated in Western Anatolia by hit and run tactics. If we had been Christians, I think today, there would be no Islam or they would be a small minority. We may not be so civilized, but we were good warriors. I wish we had been Christians, today we would be still a Near Eastern society, but with less religions, since Christianity is easier to turn into atheism/agnostism/deism.

Those things have nothing to do with Anatolian Turks or ethnic Turks. The Mamluki army were composed of two different peoples for the most part: Kipchak Turks and Circassians. Turks or the Seljuks adopted Islam from the Persians, and the Seljuk and Ottoman empires were based on Turko-Persian culture like the Mughuls of South Asia. "Being Civilized" is up to the eyes of the beholder of the term, and really, Turkic peoples had their own cultural heritage that is very different from both Europe and MENA regions which is why the Turkic peoples of central and east Asia kept their most of their culture in tact in contrast to the Turkic peoples living in west Eurasia like Turks, Azeris, Caucasian Turkic peoples and so on who largely had adopted the cultural spheres of their enviroment as their own with minor Turkic cultural elements here and there.

[Kamal900]

If the Turks converted to Christianity in the 1400s, they would've been considered 'White' Europeans too. Although, with how muddy Turkic genetics are, that's not really an accomplishment. However, if Turks converted, they would be a good bulwark of Christianity.

I guess. The same's true for western Jews if they converted to Christianity and assimilated to their White host nations.

[Óttar]

They probably would've been vassals of the Byzantines. :noidea:

[Blondie]

1. then Turkey would be one of the most important bastion of the european civilization
2. probably the middle east would be also christian because of the christian turkish expansion
3. turks would be more ascceptable, everyone would consider them europeans
4. Turkey would be more advanced and richer because in the ottoman times the islam was the most important factor of the lack of technological developments
5. Turkey would be part of EU today

[sean]

We won't be having Turks vs Greeks threads daily lel.

[Zeno]

We won't be having Turks vs Greeks threads daily lel.

Actually accurate. Because they wouldn't be a thorn at least.