DNA from Early Medieval Poznań 900-1200

[Peterski]

Bones of Early Medieval inhabitants of Poznań (900s-1100s) were sent for anthropological and DNA tests:

http://poznan.wyborcza.pl/poznan/7,36001,23837486,we-wczesnym-sredniowieczu-na-srodce-istnialy-dwa-cmentarze.html?disableRedirects=true

Poznań was - next to Gniezno - among the most important political centers of the Early Polish Kingdom:

https://i.imgur.com/vsQXv3L.png

https://i.imgur.com/WKuungp.png

Oldest urban centers of Poland, cities with a history of at least 1000 years. Diocesan capitals in year 1000 AD (Gniezno, Poznań, Cracow, Wrocław, Kołobrzeg) are marked with crosses. Four main garrisons of the Polish army in year 1000 AD according to Gallus Anonymus (Gniezno, Poznań, Włocławek, Giecz) marked with red. Borders of Poland at the time of the Congress of Gniezno. Based on Andrzej Buko, "Archeologia Polski Wczesnośredniowiecznej" (English edition: "The Archaeology of Early Medieval Poland"), Warsaw 2011:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Oldest_urban_centers_of_Poland.png

Presumed borders of the oldest Piast realm (T. Jasiński, "Początki Polski w nowym świetle", 2007):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?246542-Przemys%26%23322%3Baw-s-City-Pozna%26%23324%3B

https://i.imgur.com/3hTOHfv.png

King Przemysł II, during his reign the capital city of Poland was in Poznań for the last time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przemysł_II

https://i.imgur.com/wuYrCLn.png

[Ülev]

I bet R1b (df27 or s28) will be common there too

[Bobby Martnen]

Can someone GEDmatch it?

[Bobby Martnen]

I bet R1b (df27 or s28)

Probably R1a, since Poles are Slavs.

If it's I1, it's probably either Gothic remnants or German colonists. Native Slavic Poles are never I1. I1 men who think they are native Slavic Poles are descended paternally from Germanic foreigners.

[Ülev]

Probably R1a, since Poles are Slavs.

If it's I1, it's probably either Gothic remnants or German colonists. Native Slavic Poles are never I1. I1 men who think they are native Slavic Poles are descended paternally from Germanic foreigners.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#famous_people

Undetermined R1b branch --> polish Piast Dynasty

[Peterski]

Can someone GEDmatch it?

This is not even published yet... but it will be very soon, because they are testing it now (link) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX-Uy6G4X7o#t=60s). :)

They just sent the bones to laboratory for DNA testing, we should get the results in a few years.

[Bobby Martnen]

This is not even published yet... but it will be very soon, because they are testing it now (link) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX-Uy6G4X7o#t=60s). :)

They just sent the bones to laboratory for DNA testing, we should get the results in a few years.

Why would it take a few years?

[Peterski]

Why would it take a few years?

Maybe sooner. Hopefully.

[Jana]

Probably R1a, since Poles are Slavs.

If it's I1, it's probably either Gothic remnants or German colonists. Native Slavic Poles are never I1. I1 men who think they are native Slavic Poles are descended paternally from Germanic foreigners.

It is not necessary true. Stears is I1 and his surname is most likely of Polish origin.

[Peterski]

It is not necessary true. Stears is I1 and his surname is most likely of Polish origin.

Could there be I1 among people of the Lusatian Culture?

I don't think those people spoke Germanic languages:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?257874-What-was-the-ethnicity(ies)-of-Bronze-Age-Lusatian-culture

https://i.imgur.com/CciI163.jpg

[Bobby Martnen]

It is not necessary true. Stears is I1 and his surname is most likely of Polish origin.

His Germanic ancestor was probably form before surnames were common.

[Bobby Martnen]

Could there be I1 among people of the Lusatian Culture?

I don't think those people spoke Germanic languages:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?257874-What-was-the-ethnicity(ies)-of-Bronze-Age-Lusatian-culture

https://i.imgur.com/CciI163.jpg

They are still ethnically Nordic/Teutonic/Germanic, even if they had a different language.

Just like I belong to the German race, despite speaking English as my native language.

[Jana]

Could there be I1 among people of the Lusatian Culture?

I don't think those people spoke Germanic languages:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?257874-What-was-the-ethnicity(ies)-of-Bronze-Age-Lusatian-culture

https://i.imgur.com/CciI163.jpg

Yes, it could be, good idea.

It you look at distribution of I1 outside Scandinavia, it is present at low but consistent levels trough out entire eastern Europe (5-10 percent). For example typical Germanic marker R-S21 is very low in eastern Europe and almost Non existant in the Balkans and Russia, but I1 is consistently there.

It makes me think It could precede Germanic expansion or that East Germanics who assimilated to Slavs Were pred. I1 rather than R1b.

[Jana]

His Germanic ancestor was probably form before surnames were common.

I1 could be very ancient among Poles. Poland was inhabited by East Germanics before Slavic expansion.

[Bobby Martnen]

I1 could be very ancient among Poles. Poland was inhabited by East Germanics before Slavic expansion.

But it still doesn't come from Slavs. It's a foreigner haplogroup for Poles, regardless of if those were early foreigners or later foreigners. Just like how R1 is a foreigner haplogroup for Germanic peoples.

[Jana]

But it still doesn't come from Slavs. It's a foreigner haplogroup for Poles, regardless of if those were early foreigners or later foreigners. Just like how R1 is a foreigner haplogroup for Germanic peoples.

Wrong. I1 could have taken part in Polish ethnigenesis in smaller amounts just like R1a did participate in Scandinavian ethnogenesis.

By the Way, there is subclade of I1 typical for Finns and not Connected to Germanics in any Way, so not all I1 lineage can be Connected with Germans. It is pre-Germanic ultimately like all I lineages.

[Norb]

Wrong. I1 could have taken part in Polish ethnigenesis in smaller amounts just like R1a did participate in Scandinavian ethnogenesis.

By the Way, there is lineage of I1 typical for Finns and not Connected to Germanics in any Way, so not all I1 lineage can be Connected with Germans. It is pre-Germanic ultimately like all I lineages.
:hail:

[Jana]

:hail:

Well, it is :) Bearers of Germanic language and identity belonged to R1 for sure.
But I1 most likely took part in ethnogenesis of proto-Germanics.

[Peterski]

I bet R1b (df27 or s28) will be common there too

We already have one Early Medieval R1b from Gniezno:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?225194-Y-DNA-in-Early-Medieval-Poland

GO_1, Gniezno (dating 1000-1200 AD), R1b1a2-L150.1

[TeutonicBoyars]

I'm thinking R1b was a lot more common among Poles/West Slavs in Medieval Times tbh. I really wish people wouldn't assign such broad, ancient haplogroups to specific language groups.

[Peterski]

I'm thinking R1b was a lot more common among Poles/West Slavs in Medieval Times tbh.

You mean more common in the Early Middle Ages than today? Why do you think so? What would cause the decline of R1b?

[TeutonicBoyars]

You think it was more common in the Early Middle Ages than today? Why do you think so? What would cause the decline of R1b?

Possibly from further migration and assimilation of Eastern Slavs like Ukrainians, Belarussians, maybe Balts, etc. Poland had a relatively small population until much later in the Middle Ages; this was obviously compensated by assimilating Germans, Balts, Ukrainians, Rusyns. If we take Bobby's reasoning that R1b an I1 are "Germanic groups" I'm surprised that the incidence of these in Poland aren't higher than they are today given the fact that it was a good portion of single men who would migrate from Germany.

[Peterski]

Possibly from further migration and assimilation of Eastern Slavs like Ukrainians, Belarussians, maybe Balts, etc.

Assimilation (Polonization) of those Eastern Slavs and Balts took place not in indigenous Polish lands, but in Eastern Slavic and Baltic lands - that is, to the east of the Curzon Line (present-day eastern border of Poland). And it started after 1340 AD. The only significant migration from those areas to areas of present-day Poland happened after 1945, but they moved to post-German lands mostly, see the map:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/98p6zv/eastern_kresy_poles_in_modern_poland/

https://i.imgur.com/nijxyZJ.png

Poles who are descended from assimilated East Slavs and Balts, have a much higher incidence of haplogroups such as I2a-Din (at least 1/4 of Ukrainians are I2a-Din, whereas it is rare among West Slavic ethnicities) and N1c (very common among Lithuanians and Belarusians, rare among West Slavs). Which is why Szczecin and Wrocław have elevated I2a-Din and N1c compared to, for example, Poznań.


I'm surprised that the incidence of these in Poland aren't much higher than they are today given the fact that it was a good portion of single men who would migrate from Germany.

What migrations of single men are you talking about?

The Ostsiedlung was family-based, and it did not start in Polish lands (east of the Oder-Neisse) until after 1200 AD.

We talk about ancient DNA older than 1200 AD here.


Poland had a relatively small population until much later in the Middle Ages; this was obviously compensated by assimilating Germans, Balts, Ukrainians, Rusyns.

Poland had at least 1 million to 1.25 million around year 1000 AD, later there was a steady growth.

It was no less densely populated than other West Slavic lands or than East Slavic and Baltic lands.

In the 10th-12th centuries Polish rulers increased the population also by raiding places like Western Pomerania, Prussia and Lusatia (today East Germany) and resettling captives from those areas to core Polish lands. Those captives were mostly West Slavs and West Balts.

During the Prussian crusade (13th century) there was also an influx of Prussian refugees, for example Polish noble families with "Prus" Coat of Arms are descended from Christianized Prussian refugees, in many cases it has been confirmed by Y-DNA testing of these families:

About "Prus" CoA and Y-DNA - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqOSGnjjpR0#t=28m15s

About Old Prussian refugees - http://pismo.pruthenia.pl/pruthenia_3/Pruthenia_3_2008_Bia%C5%82u%C5%84ski-G_Emigracja_Prus%C3%B3w.pdf

Lusatia (in Sachsen & Brandenburg) is inhabited by West Slavic Sorbs, who have over 60% of R1a:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs#Genetics

"Sorbs. Genetics. According to a 2015 study, the most common Y-DNA haplogroup among the Sorbs in Lusatia (n=123) is R1a, which is carried by 65% of the Sorb males. It is followed in frequency by I1 (9.8%), R1b (9.8%), E1b1b (4.9%), I2 (4.1%), J (3.3%) and G (2.4%). Other haplogroups are less than 1%.[23] A study from 2003, reported a similar frequency of 63.4% of haplogroup R1a among Sorbian males (n=112).[24] Other studies that covered aspects of Sorbian Y-DNA include Rodig et al. 2007,[25] Immel et al. 2006[26] and Krawczak et al. 2008.[27] A 2011 paper on the Sorbs' autosomal DNA reported that the Sorbs showed greatest autosomal genetic similarity to Poles and Czechs, consistent with the linguistic proximity of Sorbian to other West Slavic languages.[28] In Harvard's Human Origins dataset, Sorbs cluster autosomally with Poles.[29]"

See also my thread about Sorbs:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?245687-Proposals-for-Free-Lusatia-after-WW2


If we take Bobby's reasoning that R1b an I1 are "Germanic groups"

R1b-P312 correlates more strongly with Italo-Celtic, only R1b-U106 correlates with Germanic.

[TeutonicBoyars]

...


I don't think it would be exclusively I2a among Eastern Slav newcomers. Also the area they were assimilated in doesn't really make a difference. We know that people were relatively mobile in the Middle Ages so they could have headed westwards.

I was more talking about single German men who came later on, more during the era of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. If we included those high middle ages settlers, they might have contributed to the gene pool but apparently they were not that numerous so the gene flow from Germany wouldn't have been notable until later I believe.

In regards to Sorbs and "Slavic" R1a, I never inferred that R1b was dominant. R1a was probably always most common in Western Slavic lands, I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised if R1b was comparatively more common than it is today in Poland (where I believe it's only around 10-15%...?). IMO it could have been higher back then thus it wouldn't be surprising for this haplogroup to show up in prominent West Slavs of this period. My initial answer was just a theory in regards to how it could have declined.

[Arborean]

Could there be I1 among people of the Lusatian Culture?

I don't think those people spoke Germanic languages:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?257874-What-was-the-ethnicity(ies)-of-Bronze-Age-Lusatian-culture

https://i.imgur.com/CciI163.jpg

Do you believe Lusatians were Proto-Balto-Slavic as some would suggest?

If so perhaps some R1a split off in various directions earlier than the migration.

[Peterski]

(where I believe it's only around 10-15%...?)

15-20% (or even 15-25%) is a more accurate estimate, R1b is the 2nd most common haplogroup in Poland after R1a.

Myres 2010 study had 18.4% of R1b in Poland. The same study had 21.6% of R1b for Czechia and 16.2% for Slovakia.

Link to Myres 2010 - http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/full/ejhg2010146a.html


In regards to Sorbs and "Slavic" R1a, I never inferred that R1b was dominant.

Sorbs have more of R1a and less of R1b (only 10%) than Poles - you would expect the opposite based on geography.

[Peterski]

I don't think it would be exclusively I2a among Eastern Slav newcomers.

And, of course, there is also native West Slavic I2a. One sample of it has already been found in Early Medieval Poland:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?225194-Y-DNA-in-Early-Medieval-Poland

NA_13, Niemcza, (900-1000 AD), I2a1b2-L621

There is one J2a too:

NA_18, Niemcza, (900-1000 AD), J2a1a-L26

^^^
Of course this is not officially published yet but these genomes are already publicly available and can be downloaded.


I was more talking about single German men who came later on, more during the era of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

That would still be mostly family-based, AFAIK. I'm not sure about Scots though, whether they came with families or as single men:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?255011-The-largest-Scottish-Diaspora-was-in-Poland

Many Scots came here as refugees (due to religious persecutions in Scotland) so I assume they also came and settled with families.

I will probably read some of these books KasiaG recommended:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/36787-Poland-had-the-largest-Scottish-Diaspora


There is large literature about Scots in Poland. I am not of Scottish descent but researching both Irish-Polish and Scottish-Polish historical contacts. There are digitised books online, can be found on Archive, cannot post links, from Steauart A.S., Papers relating to the Scots in Poland,1576-1793 (1915) to a single family study, Bulloch's Gordons in Poland. Peter Bajer produced a very interesting book on the Scots in Poland, can be found in some Polish libraries I cannot remember everything now but also do not wish to overload with bibliography.

For some years, there are Scottish conferences in the University of Warsaw organised by prof. Aniela Korzeniowska (had a Scottish mother...) that produce postconference volumes in English, usually published by the Semper publishers, with articles by such names like David Worthington or Waldemar Kowalski, on the old Scottish diaspora.

There are even studies about the Scots language in Poland (Joanna Kopaczyk, now in the University of Glasgow), as found in old municipal books and other documents of Leszno, Krakow or Lublin - so many Scots were there.

I remember examples of Scottish names, Polonised, sometimes easy to guess like Moryson/Morrison, sometimes more confusing like Guttry/Guthrie, even harder, Machldejd/MacLeod, probably borrowed from Gaelic Mac Leoid [Pron. Machkleid] not from Anglicised MacLeod, or completely difficult to guess like a Makalienski, probably from MacLean or MacAilean?? So this is not that easy. Some Lowland Scottish surnames are Germanic in origin and sound German to people who think they must be of German stock, like probably the abovementioned Moryson, Fisher, Czamer/Chalmers. The knowledge of Polish people about this is higher than it used to be some 50 years ago, but still not very high and I suspect also Scots not always know, though people like David Worthington do a lot to change this.

[Bobby Martnen]

I'm thinking R1b was a lot more common among Poles/West Slavs in Medieval Times tbh. I really wish people wouldn't assign such broad, ancient haplogroups to specific language groups.

Don't tell R1ethel that...