A more detailed recap of the Insular Celtic paper on Ireland and Britain:

[Sikeliot]

Here I have quoted several important pieces that I think clarify the genetic situation. I am posting this in response to ignorance about Irish being closer to Iberians than to Brits, Germans, Scandinavians, etc.

Ireland and Britain both exist on a cline, with continental Germanic ancestry higher on the eastern side of both islands:

Cluster diversity is pronounced in the west of Ireland but reduced in the east where older structure has been eroded by historical migrations. Accordingly, when populations from the neighbouring island of Britain are included, a west-east cline of Celtic-British ancestry is revealed along with a particularly striking correlation between haplotypes and geography across both islands. A strong relationship is revealed between subsets of Northern Irish and Scottish populations, where discordant genetic and geographic affinities reflect major migrations in recent centuries.

Essentially, from western Ireland to eastern England you find a decrease in native British Isles ancestry and an increase in continental Germanic input. This means that, with some exceptions which will be noted later, eastern Ireland has more recent continental Germanic input (some of which is indirectly from Britain) than western Ireland, and in turn, western England will have less than eastern England and so on.

Exceptions are some people in Ireland and Scotland who are genetically out of this cline, such as southwestern Scotland which received and preserved ancient Irish ancestry which in turn brought the Gaelic language, and Ulster where the people have significant ancestry from other parts of Scotland and England due to the Plantations.



Connacht is genetically differentiated from the rest of western Ireland, and more similar to Leinster in the east, due to higher Scandinavian ancestry from the Vikings:

[Scandinavian ancestry] was recapitulated to varying degrees in specific genetically- and geographically-defined groups within Ireland, with the strongest signals in south and central Leinster (the largest recorded Viking settlement in Ireland was Dubh linn in present-day Dublin), followed by Connacht and north Leinster/Ulster.

Viking ancestry in Ireland therefore seems highest along the east coast from Dublin to Kilkenny (central/southern Leinster), then in Connacht in western Ireland, followed by the northern part of Leinster and Ulster. Munster, the southernmost province of Ireland, has noticeably less.



Scandinavian ancestry in Ulster does not match, however, the timeframe of Viking incursions, but with the Plantations, implying that it may have entered the area with the Plantations, indirectly from Scottish and English settlers:

European admixture date estimates in northwest Ulster did not overlap the Viking age but did include the Norman period and the Plantations. This may indicate limited Viking activity in Ulster, or, that due to the similarity in sources for the Viking and Anglo-Norman invasions and the Plantations, GLOBETROTTER failed to disentangle the earlier events from the later.



All of Ireland has been impacted by British settlement, and it corresponds more to the Norman conquest than to the Plantations for the majority of Ireland:

The all-Ireland point estimate for admixture from Britain spanned the Norman settlement instead of the Plantations, but GLOBETROTTER was unable to adequately resolve the model details for this event (fit quality FQB < 0.985; Fig 6), indicating that this estimate is not a good reflection of the true timings and extent of admixture from Britain. As noted in the PoBI study, the overall influence of British admixture in Ireland (and vice versa) has involved extensive and constant gene flow before, during and after the major population movements detailed in Fig 6, with particular swells of peopling during the Plantations. The genetic legacies of the populations of Ireland and Britain are therefore extensively intertwined and, unlike admixture from northern Europe, too complex to model with GLOBETROTTER.



British ancestry is particularly high around central and southeastern Leinster (Dublin to Wexford/Kilkenny area) and in the Ulster Planter cluster, begins to taper off in North Munster and Connacht, and reaches its low in North Leinster/(Gaelic) Ulster, South Munster, and Cork clusters, but has a median of above 20% for all regions. Far southwestern Ireland has the smallest amount.


https://i.imgur.com/ixGyXQC.png

[Grace O'Malley]

Thanks for this. A very good summation and you picked up some things I skimmed over or didn't notice i.e. the Normans.

[Bobby Martnen]

Englishmen and West Germans are still more alike to each other than either is to Irishmen.

[Sikeliot]

Thanks for this. A very good summation and you picked up some things I skimmed over or didn't notice i.e. the Normans.

This also explains well why your relatives show a shift toward Scandinavia -- after Leinster, the next highest Viking contribution is in fact Connacht.

The overall idea I am getting from this seems to be the following:

1. British ancestry from settlement, colonization, etc. averages at least 20% in all parts of Ireland, but is higher in Ulster and Leinster as to be expected, and lowest in Munster,
2. Direct Viking ancestry exists throughout Leinster and Connacht, which is lowest in Munster,
3. Ulster has Scandinavian input but it arrived indirectly from Britain, not so much from the Vikings in Ireland,
4. Munster has the least foreign input in all of Ireland,
5. Eastern Ireland is genetically more homogenous, western Ireland has several distinctive, separated clusters,
6. Connacht is closer to Leinster genetically than to the rest of western Ireland.

These are the key points, I believe.


Englishmen and West Germans are still more alike to each other than either is to Irishmen.

Simply not true.

[Bobby Martnen]

Simply not true.

From a Y-DNA perspective it is, but not autosomally.

[Sikeliot]

From a Y-DNA perspective it is, but not autosomally.

All parts of Ireland have at least, on average, 20% ancestry that can be attributed to Britain but not to the original native Irish, along with another 20% or so Viking. Given that the English themselves are less than half continental Germanic, we now see why the Irish and English are genetically close.

You can, though, find areas in Ireland and England with greater difference from one another, i.e. SW Munster and East Anglia are probably the two regions of the countries differing most.

[AphroditeWorshiper]

Poor Picts, Caledonians, Hibernians, Dummonii, Silures... :(



I think the Iberian/Basque connection with Irish bullshit just started because of the very first Migrants in Mesolithic who had a cultural similarity with WHG/Bell Beaker on Iberia, but Irish are more closer to Scandinavians and Anglo Saxon than Iberians, even the Celts came from Central Europe to Ireland, not Iberia

[Bobby Martnen]

All parts of Ireland have at least, on average, 20% ancestry that can be attributed to Britain but not to the original native Irish, along with another 20% or so Viking. Given that the English themselves are less than half continental Germanic, we now see why the Irish and English are genetically close.

You can, though, find areas in Ireland and England with greater difference from one another, i.e. SW Munster and East Anglia are probably the two regions of the countries differing most.

So essentially, modern Irishmen are 60% ethnically Irish at most.

[Bobby Martnen]

From a Y-DNA perspective it is, but not autosomally.

Germany is 16% I1, England is 14% I1, Ireland is 6% I1.

This is what I'm referring to.

[Sikeliot]

Poor Picts, Caledonians, Hibernians, Dummonii, Silures... :(



I think the Iberian/Basque connection with Irish bullshit just started because of the very first Migrants in Mesolithic who had a cultural similarity with WHG/Bell Beaker on Iberia, but Irish are more closer to Scandinavians and Anglo Saxon than Iberians, even the Celts came from Central Europe to Ireland, not Iberia


Any similarity that exists, is due to NW European input in Iberia, NOT the reverse. And Germans are closer genetically to Iberia, than the Irish OR the English are (and of those two England is closer to Iberia than Ireland is!)

[Sikeliot]

So essentially, modern Irishmen are 60% ethnically Irish at most.

It would seem that you have to, for the most 'Irish' regions of Ireland, deduct about 20% for British input and then another 15-20% for Viking.

[Bobby Martnen]

It would seem that you have to, for the most 'Irish' regions of Ireland, deduct about 20% for British input and then another 15-20% for Viking.

What about for Connaught?

[Grace O'Malley]

Englishmen and West Germans are still more alike to each other than either is to Irishmen.

Englishmen are much closer to Irishmen than West German and I'm sure you know this. I'm giving you the benefit of a doubt here. :)

[Bobby Martnen]

Englishmen are much closer to Irishmen than West German and I'm sure you know this. I'm giving you the benefit of a doubt here. :)

Autosomally, yes, but not Y-chromasomally.

I1: 16% in Germany, 14% in England, 6% in Ireland

[Grace O'Malley]

This also explains well why your relatives show a shift toward Scandinavia -- after Leinster, the next highest Viking contribution is in fact Connacht.

The overall idea I am getting from this seems to be the following:

1. British ancestry from settlement, colonization, etc. averages at least 20% in all parts of Ireland, but is higher in Ulster and Leinster as to be expected, and lowest in Munster,
2. Direct Viking ancestry exists throughout Leinster and Connacht, which is lowest in Munster,
3. Ulster has Scandinavian input but it arrived indirectly from Britain, not so much from the Vikings in Ireland,
4. Munster has the least foreign input in all of Ireland,
5. Eastern Ireland is genetically more homogenous, western Ireland has several distinctive, separated clusters,
6. Connacht is closer to Leinster genetically than to the rest of western Ireland.

These are the key points, I believe.



Simply not true.

My mother has a Scandinavian shift and she is from Munster but quite close to Limerick which was a Viking settlement.

[Token]

Any similarity that exists, is due to NW European input in Iberia, NOT the reverse. And Germans are closer genetically to Iberia, than the Irish OR the English are (and of those two England is closer to Iberia than Ireland is!)

PCA position doesn't mean much. Iberians and Irish could still share relatively recent ancestry.

[Grace O'Malley]

Any similarity that exists, is due to NW European input in Iberia, NOT the reverse. And Germans are closer genetically to Iberia, than the Irish OR the English are (and of those two England is closer to Iberia than Ireland is!)

I think the Atlantic Facade has a lot to account for in people thinking they were close. Sometimes it can take a while for people to get their head around what is fact and what is fiction. Before I started looking into genetics I used to believe all the palaver about English being Anglo-Saxon and the Irish being Celtic so completely different populations. People still believe this and some people can get very irate if still don't adhere to this. Now I've changed my opinions completely and I'm not so hung up on being "Celtic". I'm just Irish so whatever that entails I'll accept. That Iberian / Irish link is still posted everywhere on the Net because people just ran with it and it still comes up if you ask what is the closest population to Irish. People still believe the closest population to the Irish are the Basque despite all the new studies. Even when that was about it never made a dust of sense to me. It's ingrained in some people's minds though.

[Grace O'Malley]

Autosomally, yes, but not Y-chromasomally.

I1: 16% in Germany, 14% in England, 6% in Ireland

Y chromosome is only a tiny fraction of your ancestry though and in some populations drift can affect y and mt chromosomes so that they lose quite a bit but the autosomals give a much better picture. If you look at Iceland for example their founding population have a much greater variety of mtdna than the present day Icelanders have. Things like famine, natural disasters etc can affect things like ydna and mtdna.

[Bobby Martnen]

Y chromosome is only a tiny fraction of your ancestry though and in some populations drift can affect y and mt chromosomes so that they lose quite a bit but the autosomals give a much better picture. If you look at Iceland for example their founding population have a much greater variety of mtdna than the present day Icelanders have. Things like famine, natural disasters etc can affect things like ydna and mtdna.

But I see the Y-chromosome as defining your true essence.

I'd much rather my daughter marry an Abo with a Anglo Y-chromosome than an Anglo with an Abo Y-chromosome, for example.

Autosomal admixture is ephemeral, Y-DNA lasts forever.

[Sikeliot]

My mother has a Scandinavian shift and she is from Munster but quite close to Limerick which was a Viking settlement.

Limerick might be different than Cork/Kerry. All Ireland has Viking and British but Munster the least of both it looks like.

[Grace O'Malley]

PCA position doesn't mean much. Iberians and Irish could still share relatively recent ancestry.

Where would that come from though? Also dna studies are fairly conclusive.

Even using nMonte I get 0 input from any Spanish regions. If people look at it objectively Irish and Iberians are not very close populations even looking at it geographically Irish are closer to populations further away than Spanish.

I get 0 with any Spanish regions.

http://i67.tinypic.com/mcx650.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/676y3t.jpg

I'm trying all different combinations but my closest match so far is Irish, Dutch, Icelandic and Swedish. Which I match at 0.7195 but this is all new to me.

I actually don't get much English either in these combinations.

http://i68.tinypic.com/s4mdg0.jpg

Better with Norwegian but Swedish is even better and Icelandic is the best.

http://i63.tinypic.com/2egbl2g.jpg

Has anyone used this? It is addictive for a genetic junkie such as myself. :)

[Grace O'Malley]

But I see the Y-chromosome as defining your true essence.

I'd much rather my daughter marry an Abo with a Anglo Y-chromosome than an Anglo with an Abo Y-chromosome, for example.

Autosomal admixture is ephemeral, Y-DNA lasts forever.

I don't believe that for a minute.

[Token]

Where would that come from though? Also dna studies are fairly conclusive.

Even using nMonte I get 0 input from any Spanish regions. If people look at it objectively Irish and Iberians are not very close populations even looking at it geographically Irish are closer to populations further away than Spanish.

I get 0 with any Spanish regions.

http://i67.tinypic.com/mcx650.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/676y3t.jpg

I'm trying all different combinations but my closest match so far is Irish, Dutch, Icelandic and Swedish. Which I match at 0.7195 but this is all new to me.

This is not how you use nMonte to find deep shared ancestry, you need to use ancient samples.
You are trying to find Iberian input in Irish, but you use Irish as a outgroup. Completely non sense.

[Grace O'Malley]

This is not how you use nMonte to find deep shared ancestry, you need to use ancient samples.
You are trying to find Iberian input in Irish, but you use Irish as a outgroup. Completely non sense.

Can you post examples then? I was actually looking at myself as I am using poi's tool and this is how other posters are using it.

Slavic_Italian is using it the same way on this thread. https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?256206-Global-25-updated
Also posters on Anthrogenica.

[Grace O'Malley]

This is not how you use nMonte to find deep shared ancestry, you need to use ancient samples.
You are trying to find Iberian input in Irish, but you use Irish as a outgroup. Completely non sense.

Hey smartypants I am using it correctly. :p

[Sikeliot]

The thing people need to realize is of all these populations: Irish, English, Welsh, German, Dutch -- Iberians are closer to ALL of these others before the Irish.

[Token]

Hey smartypants I am using it correctly. :p

Nope, you are not. If a Irish uses Irish as a outgroup he will obviously not get any Iberian because, guess what: he is Irish. All of his ancestry will be sucked into the Irish outgroup.
I'm not a huge fan of ADMIXTURE, but i tried some models using a custom lib written in cpp. The fit is obviously not the best because we don't have medieval Northwestern African samples to handle Berber input on Iberians, so the excess SSA raise the fst distance. Substituting Irish for British Beaker, the results are almost the same.

nPop = 3
Chosen pop Irish
0.39333333
Chosen pop Portugal_MLBA
0.49666666
Chosen pop Moroccan
0.11003333

rounded of fst: 2.4

This many iterations 30 for run 0

At this bootstrapping: 1 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 2 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 3 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 4 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 5 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 6 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 7 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 8 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 9 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 10 out of: 10
best like -294385.265012 after 0!
Q 0.999980 Q 0.000010 Q 0.000010 after 0!

Estimated Q = 0.999980 0.000010 0.000010
best like -294385.265012 after 0 runs!
cpu-time = 15.00 sec
walltime = 15.00 sec

Now, Galician set using Spanish as a outgroup. Again, Beaker Britain is interchangeable with Irish.

nPop = 3
Chosen pop Irish
0.21944444
Chosen pop Spanish
0.72566666
Chosen pop Moroccan
0.54899999

rounded of fst: 2.3

This many iterations 30 for run 0

At this bootstrapping: 1 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 2 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 3 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 4 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 5 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 6 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 7 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 8 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 9 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 10 out of: 10
best like -294385.265012 after 0!
Q 0.999980 Q 0.000010 Q 0.000010 after 0!

Estimated Q = 0.999980 0.000010 0.000010
best like -294385.265012 after 0 runs!
cpu-time = 15.00 sec
walltime = 15.00 sec

[Bobby Martnen]

I don't believe that for a minute.

Culture also matters, but admixture eventually dilutes. Your Y-chromosome never does.

[Sikeliot]

What you should do is use Germany, Sweden, and Spain as outgroups for both Irish and English, and see who has more Iberian. I am sure it will be the English.

[Bobby Martnen]

What you should do is use Germany, Sweden, and Spain as outgroups for both Irish and English, and see who has more Iberian. I am sure it will be the English.

Can someone nMonte Sicilians with North Italians, Normans, Greeks, and MENAs?

[Grace O'Malley]

Nope, you are not. If a Irish uses Irish as a outgroup he will obviously not get any Iberian because, guess what: he is Irish. All of his ancestry will be sucked into the Irish outgroup.
I'm not a huge fan of ADMIXTURE, but i tried some models using a custom lib written in cpp. The fit is obviously not the best because we don't have medieval Northwestern African samples to handle Berber input on Iberians, so the excess SSA raise the fst distance. Substituting Irish for British Beaker, the results are almost the same.

nPop = 3
Chosen pop Irish
0.39333333
Chosen pop Portugal_MLBA
0.49666666
Chosen pop Moroccan
0.11003333

rounded of fst: 2.4

This many iterations 30 for run 0

At this bootstrapping: 1 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 2 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 3 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 4 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 5 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 6 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 7 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 8 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 9 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 10 out of: 10
best like -294385.265012 after 0!
Q 0.999980 Q 0.000010 Q 0.000010 after 0!

Estimated Q = 0.999980 0.000010 0.000010
best like -294385.265012 after 0 runs!
cpu-time = 15.00 sec
walltime = 15.00 sec

Now, Galician set using Spanish as a outgroup. Again, Beaker Britain is interchangeable with Irish.

nPop = 3
Chosen pop Irish
0.21944444
Chosen pop Spanish
0.72566666
Chosen pop Moroccan
0.54899999

rounded of fst: 2.3

This many iterations 30 for run 0

At this bootstrapping: 1 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 2 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 3 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 4 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 5 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 6 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 7 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 8 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 9 out of: 10
At this bootstrapping: 10 out of: 10
best like -294385.265012 after 0!
Q 0.999980 Q 0.000010 Q 0.000010 after 0!

Estimated Q = 0.999980 0.000010 0.000010
best like -294385.265012 after 0 runs!
cpu-time = 15.00 sec
walltime = 15.00 sec

I was looking at populations for myself. So what is closest to me. I have to use Irish in combination with something else to get the closest match. So I'm using the tool correctly for my purposes. I don't use nMonte by itself because I haven't looked into it. This tool does a lot of the work for you but the way it is set up you can only compare a user to the Global25 dataset. Even if I use only Irish I'm still not closest to that I have to use other populations to get a lower number. Anyway my closest population on the Global25 is Icelandic, then Irish and next is Scottish. There is no population combination that gives me any Spanish region on that tool with or without Irish.

[Sikeliot]

I was looking at populations for myself. So what is closest to me. I have to use Irish in combination with something else to get the closest match. So I'm using the tool correctly for my purposes. I don't use nMonte by itself because I haven't look into it. This tool does a lot of the work for you but the way it is set up you can only compare a user to the Global25 dataset. Even if I use only Irish I'm still not closest to that I have to use other populations to get a lower number. Anyway my closest population on the Global25 is Icelandic, then Irish and next is Scottish.

We know that Iberians are not close to the Irish because if you run an Iberian through GEDmatch, like this Madeiran Portuguese woman (ignore her SSA) you can see which North Europeans come up before Irish...


# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 27.35
2 West_Med 23.8
3 North_Sea 18.33
4 East_Med 7.75
5 Baltic 5.5
6 Red_Sea 5.42
7 Sub-Saharan 3.04
8 West_Asian 2.39
9 Eastern_Euro 1.97
10 Northeast_African 1.87
11 South_Asian 1.57
12 Southeast_Asian 1.02

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Spanish_Extremadura 5.05
2 Portuguese 5.57
3 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 5.64
4 Spanish_Galicia 6.17
5 Spanish_Murcia 6.4
6 Spanish_Cantabria 6.44
7 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 6.94
8 Spanish_Andalucia 6.96
9 Spanish_Cataluna 7.2
10 Spanish_Valencia 7.72
11 Spanish_Aragon 8.27
12 Southwest_French 8.83
13 North_Italian 10.23
14 French 13.28
15 Tuscan 15.69
16 French_Basque 17.3
17 South_Dutch 17.95
18 Serbian 20.36
19 West_German 20.44
20 Southwest_English 21.08

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 84.4% Spanish_Cantabria + 15.6% Algerian @ 3.27
2 84.3% Spanish_Cantabria + 15.7% Mozabite_Berber @ 3.31
3 84.7% Spanish_Cantabria + 15.3% Moroccan @ 3.39
4 85.1% Spanish_Cantabria + 14.9% Tunisian @ 3.57
5 97.6% Spanish_Extremadura + 2.4% Bantu_S.E. @ 4.3
6 97.6% Spanish_Extremadura + 2.4% Bantu_S.W. @ 4.3
7 97.5% Spanish_Extremadura + 2.5% Biaka_Pygmy @ 4.3
8 89.9% Spanish_Cantabria + 10.1% Egyptian @ 4.3
9 97.7% Spanish_Extremadura + 2.3% Mandenka @ 4.3
10 97.4% Spanish_Extremadura + 2.6% Luhya @ 4.31
11 97.3% Spanish_Extremadura + 2.7% Bantu_N.E. @ 4.31
12 97.8% Spanish_Extremadura + 2.2% Yoruban @ 4.31
13 97.3% Spanish_Extremadura + 2.7% Mbuti_Pygmy @ 4.33
14 89.2% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon + 10.8% Mozabite_Berber @ 4.37
15 97.2% Spanish_Extremadura + 2.8% San @ 4.39
16 89.8% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon + 10.2% Moroccan @ 4.48
17 97.4% Spanish_Extremadura + 2.6% Sudanese @ 4.49
18 90.4% Spanish_Cantabria + 9.6% Bedouin @ 4.53
19 97.5% Spanish_Extremadura + 2.5% Ethiopian_Anuak @ 4.55
20 89% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon + 11% Sardinian @ 4.58

[Grace O'Malley]

Both those suggestions that Sikeliot and Bobby Martnen posted would be interesting. There are a few people on here that can use nMonte with the Global25 dataset.

[Token]

I was looking at populations for myself. So what is closest to me. I have to use Irish in combination with something else to get the closest match. So I'm using the tool correctly for my purposes. I don't use nMonte by itself because I haven't look into it. This tool does a lot of the work for you but the way it is set up you can only compare a user to the Global25 dataset. Even if I use only Irish I'm still not closest to that I have to use other populations to get a lower number. Anyway my closest population on the Global25 is Icelandic, then Irish and next is Scottish.

You have additional Scandinavian ancestry, thats why, but that's not my point. My point is that it is not entirely impossible that there was some gene exchange between Irish and Iberians, but to me it looks that some Irish like population contributed to the Iberian genepool in more recent times (Iron Age onwards), not vice-versa. This is more visible in the northwestern coast of Iberia, and was probably spread during to the rest of Iberia during the reconquista.

[Grace O'Malley]

We know that Iberians are not close to the Irish because if you run an Iberian through GEDmatch, like this Madeiran Portuguese woman (ignore her SSA) you can see which North Europeans come up before Irish...

Basically Irish are a peripheral population. Not sure why people would think they would be closer to Iberians than other populations closer to them anyway. This issue has been done and dusted for a while now. They really aren't very related otherwise as most of Europe is closer to either population before they are closer to each other. Not sure if people have an attachment to a "Celtic" link. Anyway that's another controversial topic.

[Sikeliot]

Both those suggestions that Sikeliot and Bobby Martnen posted would be interesting. There are a few people on here that can use nMonte with the Global25 dataset.

Also forgot to say additional Viking might've been pushed west in Ireland by displacement of Irish along the east coast by the British.

[Grace O'Malley]

You have additional Scandinavian ancestry, thats why, but that's not my point. My point is that it is not entirely impossible that there was some gene exchange between Irish and Iberians, but to me it looks that some Irish like population contributed to the Iberian genepool in more recent times (Iron Age onwards), not vice-versa. This is more visible in the northwestern coast of Iberia, and was probably spread during to the rest of Iberia during the reconquista.

I agree that it is most likely some Bell Beaker input in both Irish and Spanish but it is much more likely that there is Irish input in Spanish than vice versa although on that recent dna test on Spanish it wasn't very large. Do you think it is just some Bell Beaker similarity?

Anyway I don't have any known Scandinavian ancestry.

[Token]

I agree that it is most likely some Bell Beaker input in both Irish and Spanish but it is much more likely that there is Irish input in Spanish than vice versa although on that recent dna test on Spanish it wasn't very large. Do you think it is just some Bell Beaker similarity?

Anyway I don't have any known Scandinavian ancestry.

Nope, i don't think so, because we already have post-Beaker-introgression samples from Iberia and modern Iberians tilts towards Northwestern Europe compared to them. Irish and Iberians are obviously not close, one is Northwestern European and cluster close to Scandinavians, the other is Southern European and cluster close to North Italians and Southern French, but there seems to be a gradient of Irish like admixture running in Iberia that peaks in Galicia and steadily decreases as you go southeast.

[Sikeliot]

I agree that it is most likely some Bell Beaker input in both Irish and Spanish but it is much more likely that there is Irish input in Spanish than vice versa although on that recent dna test on Spanish it wasn't very large. Do you think it is just some Bell Beaker similarity?

Anyway I don't have any known Scandinavian ancestry.


You have just a larger proportion of Scandinavian ancestry than the average Irish, though we already clarified a few pages back why this might be.

[Sikeliot]

The other thing is, the Irish results I have with the smallest distance to Iberians, are those from eastern Ireland, which had more settlement from England, more continental Germanic overall... this is consistent with what I have said about England being closer to Iberia, than Ireland is.

[Grace O'Malley]

You have just a larger proportion of Scandinavian ancestry than the average Irish, though we already clarified a few pages back why this might be.

I don't know if anyone could say that. You would have to compare to other Irish people. I don't think I'm anything different personally.

[Grace O'Malley]

Nope, i don't think so, because we already have post-Beaker-introgression samples from Iberia and modern Iberians tilts towards Northwestern Europe compared to them. Irish and Iberians are obviously not close, one is Northwestern European and cluster close to Scandinavians, the other is Southern European and cluster close to North Italians and Southern French, but there seems to be a gradient of Irish like admixture running in Iberia that peaks in Galicia and steadily decreases as you go southeast.

I'll look at that Iberian paper later. I don't think the Irish is any different across Iberia but the North African that appears to differ. Sikeliot most probably knows about it more in depth.

This post by Lauχum also shows Galicia is not any closer to Ireland. As I can only go by my results if I get any Spanish regions it is Catalunya.


Sorry but the Atlantic Facade is as the name suggests, a facade. Results below are from the Eurogenes global 25 datasheet...

Iberians closer to all Sicilians/South Italians than to Irish:

Spanish_Andalucia
https://i.imgur.com/6X4LEpl.png

Spanish_Baleares
https://i.imgur.com/xAcllyb.png

Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
https://i.imgur.com/IIetvDk.png

Spanish_Extremadura
https://i.imgur.com/9dmvRFS.png

Spanish_Galicia
https://i.imgur.com/nMM4Wrc.png

Spanish_Murcia
https://i.imgur.com/f8eYdbI.png

Portuguese
https://i.imgur.com/GX4REK3.png


Iberians closer to Abruzzese and West Sicilians than to Irish:

Spanish_Aragon
https://i.imgur.com/xHmp2QW.png

Spanish_Castille_Y_Leon
https://i.imgur.com/uTYxF9T.png

Spanish_Valencia
https://i.imgur.com/MeApSEy.png


Iberians closer to mainland Greeks than to Irish:

Spanish_Cantabria
https://i.imgur.com/cHqgymR.png

Spanish_Catalunia
https://i.imgur.com/mwj0mvG.png

Irish are a NW Euro population as people have been saying above, they're closest to Dutch, other British Islanders, North Germans and Scandinavians. I strongly question to legitimacy of Celtic identity outside of Ireland, Wales, Brittany, Scotland, Cornwall and the Isle of Man (The 6 modern Celtic nations). No other regions have a surviving Celtic language and their identification with the Celts is due largely to very recent ideological developments.

[Lauχum]

Here is a spreadsheet of nMonte/Global25 results modelling Iberians as a mix of Spanish Basques, Tuscans, Irish and Maghrebi Berbers (Saharawi).
https://i.imgur.com/NEz0ssv.png

Galicia indeed has one of the highest Irish scores in Iberia, and the component seems to peak in the West/NW of the peninsula, however it is somewhat offset by North African ancestry which increases as you go west and actually peaks in Galicia, so the region does not end up North-Shifted relative to other regions.

People often assume that Andalusia is the most North African influenced region in Iberia, however this is not the case. Andalucia actually has a lower North African score than Castille Y Leon, and its more on par with its neighbours to the North (La Mancha) and North East (Catalonia) in this respect. Whats interesting about Andalucia is that it by far scores the highest Tuscan-related ancestry on the mainland, and not so coincidentally was the main centre of Roman colonisation and settlement.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Romancoloniae.jpg

[Grace O'Malley]

Here is a spreadsheet of nMonte/Global25 results modelling Iberians as a mix of Spanish Basques, Tuscans, Irish and Maghrebi Berbers (Saharawi).
https://i.imgur.com/NEz0ssv.png

Galicia indeed has one of the highest Irish scores in Iberia, and the component seems to peak in the West/NW of the peninsula, however it is somewhat offset by North African ancestry which increases as you go west and actually peaks in Galicia, so the region does not end up North-Shifted relative to other regions.

People often assume that Andalusia is the most North African influenced region in Iberia, however this is not the case. Andalucia actually has a lower North African score than Castille Y Leon, and its more on par with its neighbours to the North (La Mancha) and North East (Catalonia) in this respect. Whats interesting about Andalucia is that it by far scores the highest Tuscan-related ancestry on the mainland, and not so coincidentally was the main centre of Roman colonisation and settlement.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Romancoloniae.jpg

Thank you that is so interesting. Could you model what populations Irish people are closest to. I don't want to use myself as some could say I'm not typical? I love this stuff and wish I could use nMonte as well as you.

[Lauχum]

Thank you that is so interesting. Could you model what populations Irish people are closest to. I don't want to use myself as some could say I'm not typical? I love this stuff and wish I could use nMonte as well as you.

Np, Irish are closest to other British Islanders followed by Dutch and Icelanders, then other Scandis, then Continental NW/Central Euros and French. If we had North German and Danish samples they'd also be very close most likely (probably very similar to Dutch).
https://i.imgur.com/pSlrNEW.png
https://i.imgur.com/Pmgf2ot.png

Which can also be seen on this PCA of Europe I made using Davidski's spreadsheet:
79856

[Sikeliot]

What is also worth noting is that the Viking admixture into Ireland, added something to the Irish that is very similar to what the Anglo-Saxon colonization of England contributed to England. This also keeps the Irish and the English genetically close to one another.

[Bobby Martnen]

nMonte

Can you please nMonte Palermo Sicilians using Normans, North Italians, Greeks, Levantines, and North Africans?

[Lauχum]

Can you please nMonte Palermo Sicilians using Normans, North Italians, Greeks, Levantines, and North Africans?

Unfortunately I cannot, Palermo Sicilians aren't on the datasheet. The only formal Sicilian samples are Sicilian_East and Sicilian_West. Sicilian_West is almost definitely Trapani as it clusters with Abruzzo and won't be a good representation of Palermitians. AFAIK the only paper which formally sampled Palermo is Sarno et al 2017 and they have not released their samples.

[Sikeliot]

Unfortunately I cannot, Palermo Sicilians aren't on the datasheet. The only formal Sicilian samples are Sicilian_East and Sicilian_West. Sicilian_West is almost definitely Trapani as it clusters with Abruzzo and won't be a good representation of Palermitians. AFAIK the only paper which formally sampled Palermo is Sarno et al 2017 and they have not released their samples.

In Sarno, this is where Palermo plots: near Reggio Calabria (one of the most outlying areas in South Italy), Cosenza (Calabria), Calabrian Griko, and halfway between Trapani and Sephardim (SIC_PA). On the other hand Catania, Enna, Ragusa plot together.

Next to Calabrian Griko people and Reggio Calabria they are the next closest European population to the North African Jews, also.

https://i.imgur.com/TbNEAX4.png

[Bobby Martnen]

Unfortunately I cannot, Palermo Sicilians aren't on the datasheet. The only formal Sicilian samples are Sicilian_East and Sicilian_West. Sicilian_West is almost definitely Trapani as it clusters with Abruzzo and won't be a good representation of Palermitians. AFAIK the only paper which formally sampled Palermo is Sarno et al 2017 and they have not released their samples.

Can you nMonte West Germans using English, Belorussian, and Spaniards?

[Sikeliot]

Also it does appear at least some of the Sicilians/Calabrians are closer to the North African Jews and Cypriots than to mainland Greece in the Sarno plot which is as I expected.

[Lauχum]

In Sarno, this is where Palermo plots: near Reggio Calabria (one of the most outlying areas in South Italy), Cosenza (Calabria), Calabrian Griko, and halfway between Trapani and Sephardim (SIC_PA). On the other hand Catania, Enna, Ragusa plot together.

Next to Calabrian Griko people and Reggio Calabria they are the next closest European population to the North African Jews, also.

https://i.imgur.com/TbNEAX4.png

Yeah, on the ADMIXTURE analysis Palermo was similar to Agrigento in terms of Near Eastern ancestry but had lower North European and higher Sardinian. I'd bet Maltese have the highest affinity to these 2 provinces.


Can you nMonte West Germans using English, Belorussian, and Spaniards?

"distance%=0.9053"
German
English,53.6
Belarusian,26.2
Spanish_Cantabria,20.2

"distance%=0.7524"
German
English,56.6
Belarusian,25
Spanish_Andalucia,18.4

[Bobby Martnen]

"distance%=0.9053"
German
English,53.6
Belarusian,26.2
Spanish_Cantabria,20.2

"distance%=0.7524"
German
English,56.6
Belarusian,25
Spanish_Andalucia,18.4

Thank you. So Germans are essentially 55% NW Euro, 25% Slavic, and 20% Med.

Wow.

[Sikeliot]

Yeah, on the ADMIXTURE analysis Palermo was similar to Agrigento in terms of Near Eastern ancestry but had lower North European and higher Sardinian. I'd bet Maltese have the highest affinity to these 2 provinces.

I was upset Sarno did not sample Messina, Syracuse, and Caltanissetta. My thought is Caltanissetta would be similar to Agrigento (and would be, along with them, the most similar to Malta) whereas Messina would be closer to some of the Calabrians, and Syracuse would be even more outlying ("European") than even Trapani.

But in the grand scheme of things, all Sicily except Trapani and Syracuse, plus any spillover into neighboring provinces by the borders, is fairly homogenous and affected by the same admixture events.

[Bobby Martnen]

"distance%=0.9053"
German
English,53.6
Belarusian,26.2
Spanish_Cantabria,20.2

"distance%=0.7524"
German
English,56.6
Belarusian,25
Spanish_Andalucia,18.4

Was this West Germans specifically or just an amalgamation of all Germans?

Also, can you please try the same thing with Frenchies?

[J. Ketch]

Thank you. So Germans are essentially 55% NW Euro, 25% Slavic, and 20% Med.

Wow.
Massive differences between Northwest, East, and South/West Germans though. People from South West Germany could be modelled as nearly half Med half Nordic, whereas North Germans are close to Scandinavians.

[J. Ketch]

Is there anywhere in the POBI that demonstrates a number estimate of the Scandinavian input in Irish regions, or overall?

[Bobby Martnen]

Massive differences between Northwest, East, and South/West Germans though. People from South West Germany could be modelled as nearly half Med half Nordic, whereas North Germans are close to Scandinavians.

People from Southwest Germany are no where near half Med. 1/3 at most, but probably closer to 1/4

[J. Ketch]

People from Southwest Germany are no where near half Med. 1/3 at most, but probably closer to 1/4
Yes, that was an exaggeration I take back, but in some cases they can be modelled 60-40 Nordic-Italian.

Courtesy of LukaszM.

[1,] "Hessen" "0"
[2,] "59.2% SVSkane + 40.8% ITLombardia" "1.0661"
[3,] "66.4% SEEngland + 33.6% ITLombardia" "1.1989"
[4,] "67.1% NLFriesland + 32.9% ITLombardia" "1.2129"
[5,] "53% Denmark + 47% SwissItalian" "1.2152"
[6,] "57.7% SEEngland + 42.3% SwissItalian" "1.2265"
[7,] "62.2% Denmark + 37.8% ITLombardia" "1.2654"
[8,] "50.1% SVSkane + 49.9% SwissItalian" "1.3782"
[9,] "63.3% NLDrenthe + 36.7% ITFriuli" "1.3946"
[10,] "58.8% NLFriesland + 41.2% SwissItalian" "1.4021"
[11,] "61.9% NLFriesland + 38.1% ITAosta" "1.4274"
[12,] "57.6% NLOverijssel + 42.4% SwissItalian" "1.429"
[13,] "58.2% SchleswigHolstein + 41.8% SwissItalian" "1.4392"
[14,] "76.9% Walloons + 23.1% ITFriuli" "1.4756"
[15,] "65.2% SEEngland + 34.8% ITPiemonte" "1.5028"
[16,] "47.1% MecklenburgVorpommern + 52.9% ITLombardia" "1.5182"
[17,] "73.9% Walloons + 26.1% ITVeneto" "1.5301"
[18,] "66% NLFriesland + 34% ITPiemonte" "1.5338"
[19,] "79.6% Walloons + 20.4% ITBolzano" "1.5616"
[20,] "37.6% MecklenburgVorpommern + 62.4% SwissItalian" "1.5752"
[21,] "53.3% SVSkane + 46.7% ITAosta" "1.5894"
[22,] "66.8% SchleswigHolstein + 33.2% ITFriuli" "1.6016"
[23,] "61.6% SEEngland + 38.4% ITAosta" "1.6084"
[24,] "76.5% Walloons + 23.5% ITTrentino" "1.6107"
[25,] "56.4% Denmark + 43.6% ITAosta" "1.6114"
[26,] "60.6% Denmark + 39.4% ITPiemonte" "1.631"
[27,] "77.4% Walloons + 22.6% ITPiemonte" "1.6335"
[28,] "59.4% NLDrenthe + 40.6% ITVeneto" "1.651"
[29,] "56.4% Niedersachsen + 43.6% SwissItalian" "1.6721"
[30,] "29.6% SchleswigHolstein + 70.4% RheinlandPfalz" "1.6893"

[1,] "RheinlandPfalz" "0"
[2,] "70.1% Walloons + 29.9% ITFriuli" "0.6032"
[3,] "68.4% Walloons + 31.6% ITTrentino" "0.8373"
[4,] "57.1% NLDrenthe + 42.9% ITFriuli" "0.8801"
[5,] "66.9% Walloons + 33.1% ITVeneto" "0.8912"
[6,] "67.1% Walloons + 32.9% ITLadinia" "1.0317"
[7,] "60.5% Niedersachsen + 39.5% ITLombardia" "1.1833"
[8,] "54.3% NLGroningen + 45.7% ITLadinia" "1.1886"
[9,] "54.4% NLDrenthe + 45.6% ITTrentino" "1.2294"
[10,] "60% NLFriesland + 40% ITLombardia" "1.2427"
[11,] "59.8% NordrheinWestfalen + 40.2% ITFriuli" "1.244"
[12,] "59.2% SEEngland + 40.8% ITLombardia" "1.3056"
[13,] "52.4% SVSkane + 47.6% ITLombardia" "1.3171"
[14,] "73.1% Walloons + 26.9% ITPiemonte" "1.3294"
[15,] "18.8% Saarland + 81.2% Hessen" "1.3312"
[16,] "55.3% Denmark + 44.7% ITLombardia" "1.3611"
[17,] "52.5% NLDrenthe + 47.5% ITVeneto" "1.3673"
[18,] "57.1% NordrheinWestfalen + 42.9% ITTrentino" "1.3692"
[19,] "77.4% Walloons + 22.6% ITBolzano" "1.3932"
[20,] "72.1% BadenWürttemberg + 27.9% ITTrentino" "1.4318"
[21,] "67.9% NLLimburg + 32.1% ITFriuli" "1.4726"
[22,] "51.8% Niedersachsen + 48.2% SwissItalian" "1.4979"
[23,] "53.5% NLFriesland + 46.5% ITAosta" "1.5376"
[24,] "52.7% SEEngland + 47.3% ITLadinia" "1.5378"
[25,] "48% SachsenAnhalt + 52% ITLombardia" "1.55"
[26,] "75.8% BadenWürttemberg + 24.2% ITFriuli" "1.5652"
[27,] "54.2% Niedersachsen + 45.8% ITAosta" "1.5687"
[28,] "52.2% NLDrenthe + 47.8% ITLadinia" "1.5838"
[29,] "68.7% Walloons + 31.3% SwissItalian" "1.5872"
[30,] "52.7% SchleswigHolstein + 47.3% ITLadinia" "1.5993"

[Bobby Martnen]

Yes, that was an exaggeration I take it back, but in some cases they can be modelled 60-40 Nordic-Italian.


These are all Northern Italians, who are heavily Northern and Central European admixed. West Germans could be 3/4 Nordic, 1/4 Sicilian.

[Jana]

As Grace once mentioned, Munster apears to be most dictinctive Irish cluster.

[Bobby Martnen]

As Grace once mentioned, Munster apears to be most dictinctive Irish cluster.

Ironic that there's also a Munster in Germany

[Mingle]

Simply not true.

Is Southeast England closer to Ireland or the Netherlands?

[Mingle]

Ironic that there's also a Munster in Germany

Their names are not related btw.

[Bobby Martnen]

Their names are not related btw.

When I was little, my grandma used to get Munster cheese, and I thought it was called "monster cheese"

[J. Ketch]

Is there anywhere in the POBI that demonstrates a number estimate of the Scandinavian input in Irish regions, or overall?
Reason I ask is because my father is from Central Ireland, what would be the edge of the Central Leinster cluster, with some small ancestry from Connaught. I always assumed the Vikings stayed mostly in the East Coast strongholds of Dublin, Wexford and Waterford, but I suppose their genetic influence would stretch further in places that were less populated. That's also why the Viking influence is much stronger in Ireland than England, despite there being larger invasion forces in the latter.

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 51.56
2 Baltic 28.02
3 West_Med 12.6
4 West_Asian 3.06
5 East_Med 2.27
6 South_Asian 1.09
7 Oceanian 0.65
8 Amerindian 0.53
9 Sub-Saharan 0.22

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Dutch 3.51
2 Norwegian 3.61
3 Orcadian 3.79
4 Danish 3.84
5 Irish 4.73
6 West_Scottish 5.02
7 Southeast_English 5.24
8 Swedish 5.37
9 North_German 5.94
10 Southwest_English 6.05

[Norb]

Is Southeast England closer to Ireland or the Netherlands?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19oQnlyTH_rCJ3p6TlId-UBZQ3NTv9Wkk/view

[J. Ketch]

These are all Northern Italians, who are heavily Northern and Central European admixed. West Germans could be 3/4 Nordic, 1/4 Sicilian.
More like 1/2 Nordic, 1/4 Gallic/Celtic, 1/4 Tuscan.

[Bobby Martnen]

More like 1/2 Nordic, 1/4 Gallic/Celtic, 1/4 Tuscan.

Yet most West Germans look just like Anglo-Saxons

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=79334&d=1534641350

[celticdragongod]

Englishmen and West Germans are still more alike to each other than either is to Irishmen.

Do you have evidence to back up this statement or are you just expressing a personal opinion?

[Grace O'Malley]

Np, Irish are closest to other British Islanders followed by Dutch and Icelanders, then other Scandis, then Continental NW/Central Euros and French. If we had North German and Danish samples they'd also be very close most likely (probably very similar to Dutch).
https://i.imgur.com/pSlrNEW.png
https://i.imgur.com/Pmgf2ot.png

Which can also be seen on this PCA of Europe I made using Davidski's spreadsheet:
79856

Thanks for doing this. On the Global25 my closest population is Icelandic even before Ireland but from my combinations I always get a 0 for Shetland which is odd as you would think they were similar populations. This is so helpful and I appreciate you taking the time to do this. :clap: I'd love to learn how to do this stuff as it really is a fantastic tool.

[Grace O'Malley]

Is there anywhere in the POBI that demonstrates a number estimate of the Scandinavian input in Irish regions, or overall?



It's not in the PoBI but the Irish DNA Atlas which stated this.


We observe significant proportions of Irish, Scottish, and Orcadian ancestry in modern Norway (6.82%, 2.29%, and 2.13%, respectively), particularly western Norway. This could provide evidence for Irish admixture back into Norway, but could also easily be explained by Norwegian haplotypes existing in Ireland, Scotland, and Orkney. Therefore, we are able to provide an upper estimate of ~20% Norwegian ancestry within Ireland, but unable to provide an empirical lower limit.

There is also some Swedish and Danish. The Swedish could be part of the Norse component (IMO but other people might think differently). But the Danish has been linked more to the Anglo-Saxon component. There appears to be a Danish/German component from the PoBI which has been linked to the Anglo-Saxons and not the Vikings. This was the PoBI's opinion so I'm just relaying what they said. There is a paper coming out specifically on Danish Vikings (hopefully this year) so that should give a better idea of their genetics as they have actual Viking genomes.

This is from the Insular Celtic paper. Link below.


Of all the European populations considered, ancestral influence in Irish genomes was
best represented by modern Scandinavians and northern Europeans, with a significant singledate
one-source admixture event overlapping the historical period of the Norse-Viking settlements
in Ireland (p < 0.01; fit quality FQB > 0.985; Fig 6). This was recapitulated to varying
degrees in specific genetically- and geographically-defined groups within Ireland, with the
strongest signals in south and central Leinster (the largest recorded Viking settlement in Ireland
was Dubh linn in present-day Dublin), followed by Connacht and north Leinster/Ulster
(S5 Fig; S6 Table). This suggests a contribution of historical Viking settlement to the contemporary
Irish genome and contrasts with previous estimates of Viking ancestry in Ireland based
on Y chromosome haplotypes, which have been very low [25]. The modern-day paucity of
Norse-Viking Y chromosome haplotypes may be a consequence of drift with the small patrilineal
effective population size, or could have social origins with Norse males having less influence
after their military defeat and demise as an identifiable community in the 11th century,
with persistence of the autosomal signal through recombination.
European admixture date estimates in northwest Ulster did not overlap the Viking age but
did include the Norman period and the Plantations (S5 Fig). This may indicate limited Viking
activity in Ulster, or, that due to the similarity in sources for the Viking and Anglo-Norman
invasions and the Plantations, GLOBETROTTER failed to disentangle the earlier events from
the later. This is not unexpected given the extent of the Plantations in Ulster [26], the relative
timings of the invasions and the degree of Viking involvement in Britain and Europe.


https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152&type=printable

This is the graphic from the Irish DNA Atlas.

http://i65.tinypic.com/28h0w7k.jpg

[Token]

I'll look at that Iberian paper later. I don't think the Irish is any different across Iberia but the North African that appears to differ. Sikeliot most probably knows about it more in depth.

This post by Lauχum also shows Galicia is not any closer to Ireland. As I can only go by my results if I get any Spanish regions it is Catalunya.

Lauxum answered you.

[J. Ketch]

It's not in the PoBI but the Irish DNA Atlas which stated this.



There is also some Swedish and Danish. The Swedish could be part of the Norse component (IMO but other people might think differently). But the Danish has been linked more to the Anglo-Saxon component. There appears to be a Danish/German component from the PoBI which has been linked to the Anglo-Saxons and not the Vikings. This was the PoBI's opinion so I'm just relaying what they said. There is a paper coming out specifically on Danish Vikings (hopefully this year) so that should give a better idea of their genetics as they have actual Viking genomes.

This is from the Insular Celtic paper. Link below.



https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152&type=printable

This is the graphic from the Irish DNA Atlas.

http://i65.tinypic.com/28h0w7k.jpg
What is your estimate based on what you've seen, Grace?

Interesting about the Irish/British admixture in Norwegians. That's something that's rarely discussed.

[Grace O'Malley]

What is your estimate based on what you've seen, Grace?

Interesting about the Irish/British admixture in Norwegians. That's something that's rarely discussed.

I'll go with the experts. The two studies supported each other and the Irish DNA Atlas also had Walter Bodmer who was involved in the PoBI and also James Wilson. The Insular Celtic paper had Prof Dan Bradley and Garrett Hellenthal who are two very respected geneticists so they are all very experienced.

The people involved in the Irish DNA Atlas are looking at Irish admixture in Iceland and where the Irish involved came from. I think they will also look at the Hebrides in Scotland so there's a few interesting studies coming out in the future.

[J. Ketch]

I'll go with the experts. The two studies supported each other and the Irish DNA Atlas also had Walter Bodmer who was involved in the PoBI and also James Wilson. The Insular Celtic paper had Prof Dan Bradley and Garrett Hellenthal who are two very respected geneticists so they are all very experienced.

The people involved in the Irish DNA Atlas are looking at Irish admixture in Iceland and where the Irish involved came from. I think they will also look at the Hebrides in Scotland so there's a few interesting studies coming out in the future.
What's your guess then? 25%?

I've always found the graphic from the Irish DNA analysis hard to interpret. I don't see why the native Celtic DNA should be represented only by the France reference population, when we know how similar Iron Age Insular Celts were to North Germanics.

[Longbowman]

Great find. To be expected of course. Strongbow's English, Welsh and Flemish made their mark - co wexford and cobcoro had their own archaic middle English dialects until the 19th century.

Surprised at the high level of Scandinavian DNA though not at its spread. Again that fits into out historical knowledge

[Grace O'Malley]

What's your guess then? 25%?

I've always found the graphic from the Irish DNA analysis hard to interpret. I don't see why the native Celtic DNA should be represented only by the France reference population, when we know how similar Iron Age Insular Celts were to North Germanics.

Yes it's quite possible and likely that the Irish were already the way they are now. I've had discussions on this previously but the only thing I would question is why that Norse component is higher in populations like the Irish, West Scots and Orcadians? The geneticists also said it was a single-pulse admixture event that occurred around the time of Viking invasions. I'm fairly open-minded on the topic. What they really need is more ancient samples to compare to. All these populations that are used as comparisons are modern day people so the Breton-like admixture is like present day Bretons and the Norse is from modern populations in Norway. Whose to say they were always like this? Maybe they were or maybe they weren't.

If you look at Irish and British being all basically descendants of Bronze Age Bell Beakers what caused some of these, albeit slight, differences? We know there was Anglo-Saxons in England and also places like Orkney have definitely had Norse input. The Irish Norse input is not that much smaller than the Orcadians and the second highest in the British Isles. I really don't know so I just quote what the geneticists say.

Can anyone else weigh in and give an opinion? What do you reckon Sikeliot?

[Sikeliot]

Reason I ask is because my father is from Central Ireland, what would be the edge of the Central Leinster cluster, with some small ancestry from Connaught. I always assumed the Vikings stayed mostly in the East Coast strongholds of Dublin, Wexford and Waterford, but I suppose their genetic influence would stretch further in places that were less populated. That's also why the Viking influence is much stronger in Ireland than England, despite there being larger invasion forces in the latter.

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 51.56
2 Baltic 28.02
3 West_Med 12.6
4 West_Asian 3.06
5 East_Med 2.27
6 South_Asian 1.09
7 Oceanian 0.65
8 Amerindian 0.53
9 Sub-Saharan 0.22

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Dutch 3.51
2 Norwegian 3.61
3 Orcadian 3.79
4 Danish 3.84
5 Irish 4.73
6 West_Scottish 5.02
7 Southeast_English 5.24
8 Swedish 5.37
9 North_German 5.94
10 Southwest_English 6.05

Dublin, Connacht, and central/southern Leinster are all very closely related genetically, and this can also be seen in the Irish DNA Atlas study. My guess is that while Leinster received additional British elements during colonization, there was significant migration back and forth across the central part of Ireland under Viking and Norman rule.

The more distinct parts of Ireland are Donegal, Cork, and SW Munster area.

[Sikeliot]

Yes it's quite possible and likely that the Irish were already the way they are now. I've had discussions on this previously but the only thing I would question is why that Norse component is higher in populations like the Irish, West Scots and Orcadians? The geneticists also said it was a single-pulse admixture event that occurred around the time of Viking invasions. I'm fairly open-minded on the topic. What they really need is more ancient samples to compare to. All these populations that are used as comparisons are modern day people so the Breton-like admixture is like present day Bretons and the Norse is from modern populations in Norway. Whose to say they were always like this? Maybe they were or maybe they weren't.

If you look at Irish and British being all basically descendants of Bronze Age Bell Beakers what caused some of these, albeit slight, differences? We know there was Anglo-Saxons in England and also places like Orkney have definitely had Norse input. The Irish Norse input is not that much smaller than the Orcadians and the second highest in the British Isles. I really don't know so I just quote what the geneticists say.

Can anyone else weigh in and give an opinion? What do you reckon Sikeliot?

I think Viking input in Ireland reinforces their genetic similarity to England, because Norwegian and Danish Vikings brought ancestry into Ireland that would have been quite similar to the Anglo-Saxon DNA in England (which should have originated in southern Denmark and northern Germany).

[Grace O'Malley]

People might be interested in this. Especially in regard to the midland counties of Ireland which Relethford in the 80s found as outliers in Ireland


The genetic relationship of the Aran Islands to the rest of Ireland and England appears to be due to English admixture following the garrisoning of soldiers several centuries ago. The genetic position of the midlands is more complex, but suggests the effects of early Viking inhabitation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6351720

There was also a British garrison in Athlone in the Irish midlands in the 1800s.

Anyway getting back to the Irish midland counties a book was written by anthropologist and geneticist JH Relethford in the 80s called Reflections of Our Past: How Human History is Revealed in Our Genes. He found the Irish midland counties Longford, Roscommon, Westmeath divergent from the rest of Ireland and found them more similar to Scandinavian countries on some genes and blood grouping and felt that the Norse had a greater impact on these inland counties.

The only significant inland occupation of the Vikings seems to have occurred around Lough Ree, a lake bordering Longford, Roscommon and Westmeath. This settlement seems to have resulted from expansion of the Limerick Norse up the Shannon River (Hooton and Dupertuis 1955, Jones 1968, Orme 1970). In fact, the Gaelic term 'longphort' (the Gaelic equivalent of Longford) means a Norse fortification (Orme 1970). The relationship of history to naming of the county is not known, however. That other Norse settlements do not show any distinction in blood-group or anthropometric analyses may be due to the fact that these were coastal ports, and as such experienced greater immigration in
later times. That is, Norse colonization is a slight factor relative to later historical events. The Norse may have had a greater genetic effect in the midlands.

This is a snippet from the book but it is interesting with Connacht being after Leinster with the Norse element. It is a bit dated now but perhaps he was on to something.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=JHhQDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT185&dq=relethford+reflections+of+our+past+irish+midlan d+counties+vikings&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJtv3ZyqHdAhXZ7WEKHTc3ApMQ6AEIKTAA#v=on epage&q=relethford%20reflections%20of%20our%20past%20iri sh%20midland%20counties%20vikings&f=false

[Sikeliot]

People might be interested in this. Especially in regard to the midland counties of Ireland which Relethford in the 80s found as outliers in Ireland


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6351720

There was also a British garrison in Athlone in the Irish midlands in the 1800s.

Anyway getting back to the Irish midland counties a book was written by anthropologist and geneticist JH Relethford in the 80s called Reflections of Our Past: How Human History is Revealed in Our Genes. He found the Irish midland counties Longford, Roscommon, Westmeath divergent from the rest of Ireland and found them more similar to Scandinavian countries on some genes and blood grouping and felt that the Norse had a greater impact on these inland counties.

The only significant inland occupation of the Vikings seems to have occurred around Lough Ree, a lake bordering Longford, Roscommon and Westmeath. This settlement seems to have resulted from expansion of the Limerick Norse up the Shannon River (Hooton and Dupertuis 1955, Jones 1968, Orme 1970). In fact, the Gaelic term 'longphort' (the Gaelic equivalent of Longford) means a Norse fortification (Orme 1970). The relationship of history to naming of the county is not known, however. That other Norse settlements do not show any distinction in blood-group or anthropometric analyses may be due to the fact that these were coastal ports, and as such experienced greater immigration in
later times. That is, Norse colonization is a slight factor relative to later historical events. The Norse may have had a greater genetic effect in the midlands.

This is a snippet from the book but it is interesting with Connacht being after Leinster with the Norse element. It is a bit dated now but perhaps he was on to something.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=JHhQDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT185&dq=relethford+reflections+of+our+past+irish+midlan d+counties+vikings&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJtv3ZyqHdAhXZ7WEKHTc3ApMQ6AEIKTAA#v=on epage&q=relethford%20reflections%20of%20our%20past%20iri sh%20midland%20counties%20vikings&f=false


I think I figured it out.

By the time the English invaded and settled eastern Ireland, the Irish had already absorbed both Viking and Norman influences, but they had been assimilated culturally (the whole thing about Normans being "more Irish than the irish themselves" and learning Gaelic). Some of the Viking input in eastern Ireland may have been pushed west when the later English forced the Irish off their lands, and they may have migrated into Connacht.

This would have led to Leinster and Connacht being similar *except for* higher English input from later years in Leinster.

[Grace O'Malley]

Np, Irish are closest to other British Islanders followed by Dutch and Icelanders, then other Scandis, then Continental NW/Central Euros and French. If we had North German and Danish samples they'd also be very close most likely (probably very similar to Dutch).
https://i.imgur.com/pSlrNEW.png
https://i.imgur.com/Pmgf2ot.png

Which can also be seen on this PCA of Europe I made using Davidski's spreadsheet:
79856

Here are my closest populations. Thanks to Lauxum.

Modern populations I'm closest to are:

Icelandic
Irish
Scottish
Welsh
Orcadian
English
Norwegian
English Cornwall

https://i.imgur.com/BhXzS68.png

[Autrigón]

You have additional Scandinavian ancestry, thats why, but that's not my point. My point is that it is not entirely impossible that there was some gene exchange between Irish and Iberians, but to me it looks that some Irish like population contributed to the Iberian genepool in more recent times (Iron Age onwards), not vice-versa. This is more visible in the northwestern coast of Iberia, and was probably spread during to the rest of Iberia during the reconquista.Well historically there are two points of direct and recent contacts:

First one, there were a little migration by sea of Britons during V and VI centuries who were escaping from the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain and they settled what is nowadays north west Spain (Asturias and mainly Galicia).

The second one, during the age of the Spanish Empire Ireland and Spain were always allies beacuse of the catholic religion in the wars against protestants. It was pretty normal to find Irish soldiers in the Spanish army. From the XVI to the XVIII century is estimated that around 100.000 Irish settled in Spain. Nowadays you can find Irish surnames among Spaniards, some of them maintain the original form as for example "O'Donnell", "Shelly", "O'Dogherty", etc and another Irish surnames were "spanished" as for example "O’Moran" were transformed to "Moran" , MacGuinnes transformed to "Maguines", etc, etc, etc.

Alex O'Dogherty, Spanish actor and musician descendant of those irish
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMzY3NTk4MjU3N15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMTQ2NzQxOQ@@._ V1_.jpg

Street name dedicated to a Spanish military
https://imagenes-cdn.laopinion.es/multimedia/fotos/2017/03/31/87583/quien-quien-callejero-general-odonnell-5_g.jpg