Iberian Skulls - A Question for the Spaniards

[Magister Eckhart]

I have noticed that in classification of "Spanish types" (while not an official designation, I've seen the phrase used more than a few times here), there seems to be a noticeable supraorbital ridge in many specimens. I was curious whether this should be considered typical of Iberian Mediterranean types or whether a pronounced supraorbital is anomalous for the Mediterranean type.

[Alvarado]

Post some examples.

[Raskolnikov]

West Mediterranids/Atlantomeds/Iberoinsulids/Coarsemediterranids are have a higher Cromagnoid basis than other Mediterranoids. That is why.

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/1737/troe233.jpg
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/278/troe224.jpg
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/7558/paz20vega2011.jpg

Atlanto-Mediterraneans vs Small Coarse Mediterranean. Difference? Height-robustness. Lundman's Westmediterranid included both.

The more archaic Cromagnoids of Spain reduced (Berid/Paleosardinid).
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/3489/paleosardinian2.jpg
(He is Sardinian but Sardinians are obviously closer to Iberians than anything.)

Compare with Arabid:
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/9139/troe163.jpg

[Don]

You mean this?

http://imstars.aufeminin.com/stars/fan/sebastien-chabal/sebastien-chabal-20071012-323734.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8p4CsbiEZns/TI_b-hCwKBI/AAAAAAAAYDg/xudptc5bLeQ/s640/jugador+Puyol.jpg

Maybe not too obvious in this pic by the position of the light and the contrast of the color in the figure, but is noticeable comparing to "normal" profiles.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/image.php?u=1061&dateline=1301482235&type=profile

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

I read that Spaniard skulls are generally very dolicochephalic, they have oval faces. but there are also many berids with round heads, and cromagnoid with square heads.
those with pronounced supraorbital are usually cromagnoid.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/1/19/20070413234055!Cro-Magnon-male-Skulll.png

[Rouxinol]

I have that pronounced, strong, supra-orbital ridge.

[Magister Eckhart]

http://www.marcingorski.net/gente/images/1.jpg
http://star.sapo.pt/up/celebfotos-bin_imagem_s_jpg_0373311001155146499-506.jpg


From the "Portuguese People (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23848)" thread.

There are also one or two footballers in which it can sort of be seen but the photos aren't close enough for me to clearly highlight it.

Ironically, though the Portuguese don't seem to display the trait to any great degree - but then again I had a hard time seeing a great deal of unity in the Portuguese photos posted, and since we seem to have a fixation on women when we post in those " people" thread, it made it difficult to find good examples.

A recent posting that was determined to show strong Iberian traits (admittedly with [I]Indios admixture):
http://oi51.tinypic.com/e7dx52.jpg

In this instance, the subject was determined to be pre-Iberian, with Med admixture, and the supraorbital is noticeable:
Classify Labrador (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25495)

He is, however, Portuguese by nationality.

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/6223/18553271269811772607181.jpg

The younger male above shows the trait, from the Ojancanus Family (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25063) thread.

Shown in both men in the OP here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25287), though far less in Banderas... I'm starting to think it might be a Berid trait.

At any rate, I think after browsing older threads I may have been misled; while many examples I've seen display the trait, and they have been called Mediterranean, it seems to me almost all involved have some other admixture (Berid and Cro-Magnid being most common). I suppose these more robust types account for the phenomenon?

EDIT:

You mean this?


http://imstars.aufeminin.com/stars/fan/sebastien-chabal/sebastien-chabal-20071012-323734.jpg


Maybe not too obvious in this pic by the position of the light and the contrast of the color in the figure, but is noticeable comparing to "normal" profiles.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/image.php?u=1061&dateline=1301482235&type=profile

Yes, exactly that. A better example than some I provided, in fact.

The reason I ask is because I myself display a quite pronounced supraorbital ridge and I'm trying to determine if it's Mediterranean in origin.

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

I have that pronounced, strong, supra-orbtial ridge.

in fact you look to me a cromagnoid with some berid mixture. Your supra-orbital is extremely pronounced.

[Rouxinol]

By the way, would someone explain what a Berid actually is like (features, height, body type)... Since it seems to a certain degree common in Iberia. Do any of you know? I've been reading here and in other places and yet I haven't came up to any clear, definite conclusion. I've been trying to collect the various feedback given to me regarding my classification and yet I still don't know how to label my type conclusively... I've heard from Atlantomediterranid plus Berid influences to Mediterrnanid and Cro-Magnid.

[Don]

Well, yes, is quite common in Spain.

Vulgar people usually think of Spain as a Southern european country, as a mediterranean one and falling in a deep error of ignoring the atlantic or western component in this, the homeland of the most ancient europeans and the craddle of the atlantic europeans, making the Spaniards, whose genes were protected not only by natural isolation but from politico-historical facts as the inquisition, very different from other mediterranean and, also, from our neighbours the french (in general.)

But yes, the "strong faces" (including that region you comment) is to me a characteristic and common trait in spaniards, no matter the pigmentation of them.

http://www.cuatro.com/recorte/20100924ctoultpro_39/FG663H/Ies/Engracia_Manuel.jpg

I like these faces because are easily found among brothers in Spain but Impossible to find these ancient phenotypes no where but in Iberia.

[Raskolnikov]

Berid

The Races and Peoples of Europe by Bertil Lundman:

"The true West-Mediterranean race (the Ibero-Insular race of Deniker) in southwestern Europe is low-skulled and longskulled (dolichocephalic), dark, short-statured, and gracile in body form (See Figure 3). This race has a narrow face and is low in the frequency of blood type gene q. Within this region, however, there are remnants of the still smaller Berid race (See Map 18). This race is broader-formed in face and nose, but very similar to the West-Mediterranean race in the other anthropological traits - such as head form and pigmentation.


Low-Skulled Racial Group . . . Long-Skulled (Dolichocephalic) . . . Southern, Dark-Pigmented, Short-Statured Group: Berid Race: more infantile-puerile . . ."

Lundman's body typology:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3301&stc=1&d=1259939926

Coarse Mediterranean
Carlton Coon:

The southern Italians, as this survey will indicate, are a distinctive group of people who will not fall into any one recognized racial category. Besides conventional Mediterraneans and Alpines there are two special types which are particularly common, and will be familiar to anyone living in Italian sections of the United States, as well as to anyone who has visited southern Italy. These are: (1) a coarse Mediterranean, short-statured, thick-limbed, mesocephalic, possessing a narrow forehead, wide malars, heavy browridges, a short, broad, straight or lightly concave nose with upturned tip, a strong jaw, and some prognathism;
Problem is that his Coarse Mediterranean plate is not as described.

[Rouxinol]

Then according to that definition I don't fit into Berid (at lest predominantely) since according to Agrippa's description of my traits I got mostly primitive and progressive traits/features rathern than infantilised.

[Alvarado]

This man is a fine example of a "typical Iberian".

http://blogs.helsinki.fi/literaturaguerracivil2010/files/2010/04/dandy.jpg

[Curtis24]

Why doesn't one of the Spaniards, make a thread of what they consider to be typical Spaniard phenotypes? Since this is discussed often..

[Sikeliot]

I always thought the typical Spanish is an Atlanto-Med.

[Raskolnikov]

Then according to that definition I don't fit into Berid (at lest predominantely) since according to Agrippa's description of my traits I got mostly primitive and progressive traits/features rathern than infantilised.
Infantile-puerile by Lundman body typology I posted, not facial features.

[aherne]

This man is a fine example of a "typical Iberian".

http://blogs.helsinki.fi/literaturaguerracivil2010/files/2010/04/dandy.jpg

And he was a good Spaniard, too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Antonio_Primo_de_Rivera
^ Jews from JerusalemPedia do not like him very much, which is indirect testimony of his value.

[Agrippa]

I fail to see how 99% of the plastic surgery victims in this thread are 'beautiful' tbh. At least those Wodaabe girls don't look like airbrushed wannabe Barbie doll freaks of nature.

That's right and they are quite progressive-harmonious actually, especially for West Africa.

The only strange thing about the Wodaabe is how feminised (culturally-style primarily!) the guys are, but the females are really well bred I have to say, it is just somewhat one sided or extreme already.

You have to consider their average too, I mean how many people on this planet have a better average - or better average standard, because there are much more beautiful people around, but I know not too much people all over the world in which almost all members have such a high standard.

These two are good examples:
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/1737/troe233.jpg
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/278/troe224.jpg

This woman has slightly stronger browridges, but the whole and eye region is typically Aurignacoid/Mediterranoid:
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/7558/paz20vega2011.jpg

This Berid has it too:
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/3489/paleosardinian2.jpg

Extreme Cromagnid forehead and eye region in Oliver Kahn (strongly Dalofaelid):
http://www.spox.com/de/sport/fussball/bundesliga/0903/Bilder/oliver-kahn-sepp-herberger-stiftung-514.jpg

[Erik]

One of the Spanish Cro-Magnons should be a perfect Dane or Norwegian.
There are in Spain a lot of fair haired and blue eyed men. Maybe the
ancient Cro-Magnons have left this to the modern Spaniards.
The darkness has come from the Iberians.

[Lábaru]

One of the Spanish Cro-Magnons should be a perfect Dane or Norwegian.
There are in Spain a lot of fair haired and blue eyed men. Maybe the
ancient Cro-Magnons have left this to the modern Spaniards.
The darkness has come from the Iberians.

Cro-Magnon traits often show in people's hair and dark eyes, in Spain, people blonde and blue eyes tend to have more delicate features.

[Magister Eckhart]

Cro-Magnon traits often show in people's hair and dark eyes, in Spain, people blonde and blue eyes tend to have more delicate features.

I have seen Cro-Magnid examples of both pigmentations, but I was under the impression that the darker pigmentation was certainly the Mediterranean influence on the Iberians.

What is, by the way, the dominant pigmentation among Cro-Magnids? I've seen plenty of intermediary pigmentation and some that display blondism, so I have a hard time believing that one can say (overwhelmingly at least) that Cro-Magnid is necessarily darker.

[Agrippa]

I have seen Cro-Magnid examples of both pigmentations, but I was under the impression that the darker pigmentation was certainly the Mediterranean influence on the Iberians.

What is, by the way, the dominant pigmentation among Cro-Magnids? I've seen plenty of intermediary pigmentation and some that display blondism, so I have a hard time believing that one can say (overwhelmingly at least) that Cro-Magnid is necessarily darker.

Cromagnids can pop up in every shade, like Taurids and Aurignacoids.

Just look for Berberids in Northern Africa, you can get them light, medium or really quite dark for Europids (even without significant Negroid).

Same for the ancient Guanches so far as we know.

[gold_fenix]

surely the first cromagnon men had dark features but they had to adapt to cold weather

a dark cromagnon ???
http://i.esmas.com/image/0/000/006/131/Fernando-colunga-370x270.jpg

[Agrippa]

surely the first cromagnon men had dark features but they had to adapt to cold weather

Pigmentation has nothing to do with temperature, but primarily with UV-radiation (especially during the winter months) and nutrition (whether you get more or less vitamin D and folic acid through your food) and secondarily with sexual (light female preference) and social (in a specific context) selection.

If it would be about temperature, people in cold climates should be dark and those in hot ones light pigmented...

But the human skin and organism as a whole is no Greek house - blacks have to sweat even more because of their dark pigmentation, it protects them from UV-overexposure (skin damages and folic acid).


a dark cromagnon ???
http://i.esmas.com/image/0/000/006/131/Fernando-colunga-370x270.jpg

Yes, by basic traits he would fit into it, whether he has other exotic admixture or not.

You can find dark Cromagnids in the North of Europe as well, as you can find light ones as far as North Africa.

[Don]

surely the first cromagnon men had dark features but they had to adapt to cold weather

a dark cromagnon ???
http://i.esmas.com/image/0/000/006/131/Fernando-colunga-370x270.jpg

Too tanned specimen, Fénix Dorado.

Anyway, good discussion in here. I am reading with intense attention and interest.

[Rouxinol]

In respect of pigmentation, I think it kinda goes like this: a light complexion will mostly reflect radiation, then less heat absorbed. A dark complexion will mostly absorb radiation, then more heat absorbed. So indeed it doesn't make sense to attribute pigmentation to climate, but instead to UV indexes.

[Magister Eckhart]

In respect of pigmentation, I think it kinda goes like this: a light complexion will mostly reflect radiation, then less heat absorbed. A dark complexion will mostly absorb radiation, then more heat absorbed. So indeed it doesn't make sense to attribute pigmentation to climate, but instead to UV indexes.

And, of course, to genetics, which perhaps shows that acquired traits can be passed from generation to generation, despite high school biology class' claim to the contrary. Lamarck can rest easy knowing he wasn't entirely wrong.

[Alvarado]

This is the supposed skull of Hernán Cortés, another typical Iberian.

http://www.biografiasyvidas.com/biografia/c/fotos/cortes.jpg

http://www.motecuhzoma.de/KNOCH2.jpg

(click to enlarge)
8020
8021

Here is the study:8022

Cephalic index: 70.62 (Dolichocephalic)

Cranial capacity: 1,443 cc

[FilhoV]

This question is interesting I'm no expert but I know that historically the skulls were Dolio and meso but a smaller percentage where brachy due to alpine and Dinarid traits but those are not as common