I2a1b-CTS10228 Rurikids

[cosmoo]

Original study in Russian:
https://space-time.ru/space-time/article/view/2226-7271provr_st3-21.2015.71
https://space-time.ru/space-time/article/download/2226-7271provr_st3-21.2015.71/207/

TL;DR - Vsevolod (and hence, his son Vladimir Monomah) of N1c1 Y-DNA are product of non-paternal event which happened between Yaroslav's wife, Ingergerd of Sweden, and king St. Olaf of Norway, while original Rurikids, preserved through families of Izyaslavich branch, such as princes of Turov, belong to I2a-CTS10228.

[Jana]

Interesting. And their subclade ?

[Peterski]

So it turns out that original Rurikids were Slavic after all but Ingegerd cheated on her husband Yaroslav with some Varangian guy, and hence N1c. I2a-CTS10228 = I2a-Din, which is most common among South and East Slavs. It was also found in Early Medieval Russian samples already:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?223692-Early-Medieval-Russian-DNA

Villain accused of cheating by Russian scientists (born in Sigtuna, from which Viking Age DNA was published recently):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingegerd_Olofsdotter_of_Sweden

I think her status of a "Saint" is now very questionable:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingegerd_Olofsdotter_of_Sweden#Sainthood

[Arborean]

So it turns out that original Rurikids were Slavic after all but Ingegerd cheated on her husband Yaroslav with some Varangian guy, and hence N1c. I2a-CTS10228 = I2a-Din, which is most common among South and East Slavs. It was also found in Early Medieval Russian samples already:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?223692-Early-Medieval-Russian-DNA

Villain accused of cheating by Russian scientists (born in Sigtuna, from which Viking Age DNA was published recently):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingegerd_Olofsdotter_of_Sweden

I think her status of a "Saint" is now very questionable:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingegerd_Olofsdotter_of_Sweden#Sainthood

Why do the Russian Chronicles claim the line wasn't Slavic though? thats a big disparity between their chronicles of a Varangian dynasty and what this supposedly shows.

[Peterski]

Why do the Russian Chronicles claim the line wasn't Slavic though?

It does not say anything about his ethnicity, but it was also written centuries after supposed Rurik's lifetime (if he ever existed).

DNA from Viking Age Swedish town of Sigtuna (notabene the same where Ingegerd was born) shows it was a multi-ethnic town:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?256694-Viking-DNA-from-Sigtuna

https://i.imgur.com/sKa277X.jpg

So someone could come from Sigtuna to Russia and he/she could be ethnically Non-Germanic.

[Arborean]

It does not say anything about his ethnicity, but it was also written centuries after supposed Rurik's lifetime (if he ever existed).

DNA from Viking Age Swedish town of Sigtuna (notabene the same where Ingegerd was born) shows it was a multi-ethnic town:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?256694-Viking-DNA-from-Sigtuna

https://i.imgur.com/sKa277X.jpg

So someone could come from Sigtuna to Russia and he/she could be ethnically Non-Germanic.

Oh. So in theory could have been from one of those mixed villages and confused as Varangian in the chronicle. Depends though. Is there a founder effect that has connections to Scandinavian I2a?

That would be telling. But, it wouldn't take away from the lack of sainthood of a wife lol.

[cosmoo]

Interesting. And their subclade ?
The SNP that defines it is Y13498: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y13498/


So it turns out that original Rurikids were Slavic after all but Ingegerd cheated on her husband Yaroslav with some Varangian guy, and hence N1c. I2a-CTS10228 = I2a-Din, which is most common among South and East Slavs. It was also found in Early Medieval Russian samples already:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?223692-Early-Medieval-Russian-DNA

Villain accused of cheating by Russian scientists (born in Sigtuna, from which Viking Age DNA was published recently):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingegerd_Olofsdotter_of_Sweden

I think her status of a "Saint" is now very questionable:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingegerd_Olofsdotter_of_Sweden#Sainthood
It is erroneous to ascribe an IE identity to it, but yes, they were Slavs by that time for quite a while, and not Norsemen by any means.

By the way, it is not just "some Varangian guy", but king Olaf of Norway, so his sainthood can be doubted as well. Moreover, the exact N1c subclade of Monomakh's line is distinctively Scandinavian.

As for I2a1b, among the Izyaslavich descendants that turned out to belong to it were also men of Czetwertynski family, whose princely title was acknowledged even in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

[Jana]

^^^great, it is downstream clade of Y4460 like my maternal ancestors :o

[Jackson78]

You should have called this thread:

"How a Swedish woman cucked one I2a-Din man"

Why do you think is I2a-Din absolutely absent from Sweden and Germanic countries today?

Maybe all I2a-Din men got cucked. ;)

Jebem li ti dete ja konjojebačko u pičku.

[Jackson78]

^^^great, it is downstream clade of Y4460 like my maternal ancestors :o

So, they are most probably Rurik's relatives. ;)

[cosmoo]

Why do the Russian Chronicles claim the line wasn't Slavic though? thats a big disparity between their chronicles of a Varangian dynasty and what this supposedly shows.
The original of Primary Chronicle didn't survive, but still, the Hypatian Codex clearly separates Varangians from Rus as people, and the earliest Arab sources, such as the one of Ibn-Khurradadhbih, also explicitly mention Rus to be "one of the Slavic peoples".
Moreover, in Primary Chronicle it is also mentioned how Oleg (who was Rurik's contemporary, so "Slavicization" argument is impossible) and his druzhina swore by Perun and Veles to confirm a peace treaty with Byzantium in 907, and we find the same done by Igor in 945, and again by Sviatoslav in 971.

The whole mantra that Rurikids were Scandinavians starts with the Normanist theories in 18th century, furthered by "Romanovs" (not the original line) and Gerhard Friedrich Muller, and was opposed by most sane-minded members of Russian intelligentsia, even by Rurikid descendants themselves.


You should have called this thread:

"How a Swedish woman cucked one I2a-Din man"

Why do you think is I2a-Din absolutely absent from Sweden and Germanic countries today?

Maybe all I2a-Din men got cucked. ;)

It merely disappeared when it went away, massively outnumbered, in form of some East Germanic tribe.

And cheating of woman unbeknownst to husband does not make man a "cuck", that is such a dimwitted stance of modernity. Evola put it very well:
https://i.imgur.com/KqvkNBz.jpg

[Peterski]

And cheating of woman unbeknownst to husband does not make man a "cuck", that is such a dimwitted stance of modernity. Evola put it very well:
https://i.imgur.com/KqvkNBz.jpg

I know, in modern times the word "cuck" has lost its original meaning. I agree with that.

[Arborean]

The original of Primary Chronicle didn't survive, but still, the Hypatian Codex clearly separates Varangians from Rus as people, and the earliest Arab sources, such as the one of Ibn-Khurradadhbih, also explicitly mention Rus to be "one of the Slavic peoples".
Moreover, in Primary Chronicle it is also mentioned how Oleg (who was Rurik's contemporary, so "Slavicization" argument is impossible) and his druzhina swore by Perun and Veles to confirm a peace treaty with Byzantium in 907, and we find the same done by Igor in 945, and again by Sviatoslav in 971.

The whole mantra that Rurikids were Scandinavians starts with the Normanist theories in 18th century, furthered by "Romanovs" (not the original line) and Gerhard Friedrich Muller, and was opposed by most sane-minded members of Russian intelligentsia, even by Rurikid descendants themselves.



It merely disappeared when it went away, massively outnumbered, in form of some East Germanic tribe.

And cheating of woman unbeknownst to husband does not make man a "cuck", that is such a dimwitted stance of modernity. Evola put it very well:
https://i.imgur.com/KqvkNBz.jpg

Interesting. Did not know that. So they were always Slavic. I saw the movie about his Sons. Sadly the english translations were abhorrent. Production value was nice though. I am sure I would have enjoyed it more had it not seemed like a person with down syndrome translated the dialogue lmao.

[Pribislav]

Rurik was Varangian, and most likely I1.

[Peterski]

Original study in Russian:
https://space-time.ru/space-time/article/view/2226-7271provr_st3-21.2015.71
https://space-time.ru/space-time/article/download/2226-7271provr_st3-21.2015.71/207/

TL;DR - Vsevolod (and hence, his son Vladimir Monomah) of N1c1 Y-DNA are product of non-paternal event which happened between Yaroslav's wife, Ingergerd of Sweden, and king St. Olaf of Norway, while original Rurikids, preserved through families of Izyaslavich branch, such as princes of Turov, belong to I2a-CTS10228.

But how exactly did they determine that N1c is from infidelity, and not I2a?

Was the husband's actual ancient DNA tested? If not, there's no knowing where the infidelity occurred, or, indeed, if there was infidelity. An example of this situation is Richard III of England. His Y-DNA is not the same as that of putative descendants of the Plantagenets. The Beauforts sport two R1b lineages, one recently changed, but the older one is U152. There is no way to determine where the illegitimacy occurred. One would need the Y-DNA of Geoffrey of Anjou or at least Edward III, given that there were questions about John of Gaunt's legitimacy as well.

[cosmoo]

But how exactly did they determine that N1c is from infidelity, and not I2a? Was the husband's actual dna tested, i.e. was his ancient dna tested? If not, there's no knowing where the infidelity occurred, or, indeed, if there was infidelity. An example of this situation is Richard III of England. His yDna is not the same as that of putative descendants of the Plantagenets. The Beauforts sport two R1b lineages, one recently changed, but the older one is U-152. There is no way to determine where the illegitimacy occurred. One would need the ydna of Geoffrey of Anjou or at least Edward III, given that there were questions about John of Gaunt's legitimacy as well.

Because it is known that Olaf of Norway was quite intimate with Ingergerd during his exile in Russia, and it is symptomatic that she gave birth to Vsevolod (father of Monomakh, and only men of Monomaschich descent are N1c1) not so long after he left, whereas there are no such stories surrounding the Izyaslavich branch at all.

As for Plantagents, they most likely are G2a indeed, as Beauforts only have living men tested, and as you said, there are some rumors surrounding John of Gaunt as well. To be honest, I do not know why didn't they test some older remains already, there are so many of them well-preserved.

[Peterski]

Within Sviatoslav's line, a (second?) non-paternity event must have happened, since descendants from Yuri prince of Torussa (the Obolonsky and Volkonsky families) show R1a, while from Yuri's brother Mstislav, the N1c Massalsky family descends.

Is I2a-Y13498 also found in lineages that do not descend from Izyaslav but also not from Yaroslav the Wise (are there such lineages)?

[Peterski]

1) Were other descendants of king Olaf of Norway or of this Norwegian dynasty also tested?

2) How do you explain N1c in descendants of Sviatoslav's line (e.g. the family Massalsky)?

Did Ingegerd cheat on Yaroslav with Olaf twice?

[cosmoo]

Within Sviatoslav's line, a (second?) non-paternity event must have happened, since descendants from Yuri prince of Torussa (the Obolonsky and Volkonsky families) show R1a, while from Yuri's brother Mstislav, the N1c Massalsky family descends.
Those R1a bearers are actually addressed in the study which I posted. Their family lineages were modified in 16th century to be placed better at the Tsar's court.


Is I2a-Y13498 also found in lineages that do not descend from Izyaslav but also not from Yaroslav the Wise (are there such lineages)?

As far as I'm aware, all the modern Rurikids tested are from two sons (well, the latter most likely isn't) of Yaroslav the Wise: Iziaslav and Vsevolod (and from his son Vladimir Monomakh).

[cosmoo]

1) Were other descendants of king Olaf of Norway or of this Norwegian dynasty also tested?
He never founded a dynasty, so no, albeit this branch of N1c1 is typically Scandinavian.


2) How do you explain N1c in descendants of Sviatoslav's line (e.g. the family Massalsky)?
As you said, they descend from Yuri's brother Mstislav, who was son of Vladimir Monomakh, who himself was Vsevolod's son, so there is nothing to be explained there.


Did Ingegerd cheat on Yaroslav with Olaf twice?
Not likely, as Olaf stayed in Russia for about a year.

[Dick]

This is all confusing. It was noted that Vladimir, great grandson of Rurik, had several hundred concubines scattered in villages around Kiev! how many descendants actually are there?

[Harkonnen]

So what are you trying to say? King Olaf of Norway was N1c1?

[Aren]

It does not say anything about his ethnicity, but it was also written centuries after supposed Rurik's lifetime (if he ever existed).

DNA from Viking Age Swedish town of Sigtuna (notabene the same where Ingegerd was born) shows it was a multi-ethnic town:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?256694-Viking-DNA-from-Sigtuna

https://i.imgur.com/sKa277X.jpg

So someone could come from Sigtuna to Russia and he/she could be ethnically Non-Germanic.

But that R1a sample was indeed Germanic. The PCA according to Davidski is not accurate. Here's the Gedmatch results of Kls001


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 53.38
2 Baltic 29.81
3 West_Med 14.57
4 East_Med 1.95
5 Sub-Saharan 0.29

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Norwegian 6.92
2 Orcadian 7.1
3 North_Dutch 7.36
4 Danish 7.73
5 West_Scottish 7.93
6 Irish 8
7 Southeast_English 8.01
8 Swedish 8.09
9 Southwest_English 8.29
10 North_German 9.62
11 South_Dutch 12.5
12 North_Swedish 12.51
13 West_German 13.81
14 East_German 15.59
15 Austrian 16.33
16 French 17.43
17 Southwest_Finnish 19.77
18 Hungarian 20.75
19 Southwest_French 23.37
20 Spanish_Cataluna 23.61

Also we have Rurik N1c from Sigtuna aswell from the same study and that guy is genetically like modern day Norwegians, in other words also Germanic. These originally non-Germanic haplogroups must've entered Scandinavia some time before the Viking era since we see no sign of Eastern Euro in this fella.

[Peterski]

since we see no sign of Eastern Euro in this fella.

Can you post his Mixed Mode Oracle results and 4-Ancestors Oracle results as well ???

The distance to Norwegians is 6.92 which indicates he is not just Scandinavian but mixed.

[Harkonnen]

This guy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_Tryggvason
lol

[Aren]

Can you post his Mixed Mode Oracle results and 4-Ancestors Oracle results as well ???

The distance to Norwegians is 6.92 which indicates he is not just Scandinavian but mixed.

That's a normal distance considering we are dealing with 1000 year old samples. This guy has no shift to the East in comparison with modern day Scandinavians.


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 53.38
2 Baltic 29.81
3 West_Med 14.57
4 East_Med 1.95


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Norwegian @ 7.825402
2 Orcadian @ 8.040072
3 North_Dutch @ 8.378076
4 Danish @ 8.800443
5 West_Scottish @ 8.992315
6 Irish @ 9.097806
7 Southeast_English @ 9.114399
8 Swedish @ 9.140248
9 Southwest_English @ 9.411436
10 North_German @ 11.033826
11 North_Swedish @ 14.015142
12 South_Dutch @ 14.341613
13 West_German @ 15.877025
14 East_German @ 17.994904
15 Austrian @ 18.871899
16 French @ 19.912363
17 Southwest_Finnish @ 22.274818
18 Hungarian @ 23.958712
19 Southwest_French @ 26.336155
20 Spanish_Cataluna @ 26.833607

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Southwest_English +50% Swedish @ 7.308256


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Southwest_English +25% Southwest_English +25% Southwest_Finnish @ 7.184331


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 North_Swedish + Norwegian + Southwest_English + Southwest_English @ 7.085031
2 French_Basque + North_Swedish + North_Swedish + Norwegian @ 7.090204
3 French_Basque + Norwegian + Norwegian + Southwest_Finnish @ 7.144798
4 Southwest_English + Southwest_English + Southwest_English + Southwest_Finnish @ 7.184331
5 Southwest_English + Southwest_English + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish @ 7.190583
6 North_Swedish + Orcadian + Southwest_English + Southwest_English @ 7.218063
7 French_Basque + North_Swedish + Norwegian + Swedish @ 7.246472
8 North_Swedish + Norwegian + Southeast_English + Southwest_English @ 7.246554
9 North_Swedish + Southwest_English + Southwest_English + West_Scottish @ 7.262417
10 North_Swedish + Southwest_English + Southwest_English + Swedish @ 7.265608
11 French_Basque + North_Swedish + Swedish + Swedish @ 7.266491
12 North_Swedish + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 7.270733
13 North_Swedish + Norwegian + Southwest_English + West_Scottish @ 7.272964
14 North_Swedish + Norwegian + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 7.281244
15 North_Swedish + Orcadian + Southwest_English + West_Scottish @ 7.284430
16 North_Swedish + Southwest_English + Southwest_English + Southwest_English @ 7.288180
17 Southwest_English + Southwest_English + Swedish + Swedish @ 7.308256
18 Southwest_English + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.310878
19 North_Swedish + Southeast_English + Southwest_English + West_Scottish @ 7.313373
20 Orcadian + Southwest_English + Southwest_English + Southwest_Finnish @ 7.323685

[Harkonnen]

Because it is known that Olaf of Norway was quite intimate with Ingergerd during his exile in Russia, and it is symptomatic that she gave birth to Vsevolod (father of Monomakh, and only men of Monomaschich descent are N1c1) not so long after he left, whereas there are no such stories surrounding the Izyaslavich branch at all.

As for Plantagents, they most likely are G2a indeed, as Beauforts only have living men tested, and as you said, there are some rumors surrounding John of Gaunt as well. To be honest, I do not know why didn't they test some older remains already, there are so many of them well-preserved.

According to Rurikid DNA Project:
The project began in 2006 when practically no one knew from whom and from where the Rurikid princes came from. It was also unclear whether the Rurikid princes were descended from a single male. The Russian Newsweek Magazine tested the first prince (Professor Dmitri Shahovskoy of France) who was found to belong to the N1c1 genetic haplogroup. The Russian Newsweek had later confirmed his result by testing two other princes, namely Prince Andrei Gagarin of Russia and Prince Nikita Lobanov-Rostovsky of Great Britain. Many new tests have been performed in this project. Although some of the princes do not share the N1c1 hapologroup, by all means we can now say that the N1c1 haplogroup was shared at least by Prince Svatoslav Igorevich (father of St. Vladimir the Great of Kiev, and the grandson of Rurik). All of the N1c1 Rurikid princes’ haploptypes begin with (the FTDNA’s standard) 14 23 14 11 11 13 11 12 10 x 14 x 18 9 9 … . People who have such haplotypes, as well as those who have documents proving their Rurikid descent, or if their descent from Rurik is well confirmed by family tradition, are welcome to join this project.
It has also been discovered that Gedimin(as), the Grand Duke of Lithuania, and Rurik were very distant cousins. They shared a common male ancestor ab. 2200 years back. The haplotypes of the Gediminid princes, which begin with 14 23 15 11 11 13 11 12 10 x 15x 17 9 9 …, are also within the scope of this project.
The potential participants of this project are welcome to become acquainted with another website of the project: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mozhayski/teksty/ydna.html to see the remaining haplotypes and results in the Rurikid and Gediminid dynasties,as well as in other clans, the participants of which seem to be their very distant cousins.

[JQP4545]

Doesn't this conflict with the Scandinavian origins of the Rurikid Dynasty?

[cosmoo]

So what are you trying to say? King Olaf of Norway was N1c1?
Yes, most likely.

This guy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_Tryggvason
lol
Not him, but saint Olaf II. By the way, this is exact subclade of Momonakh's descendants: https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-Y10931/ . Its upstream clades are mostly Scandinavian.

According to Rurikid DNA Project:
All N1c1 bearers on the project are Vsevolod's (and if I recall correctly, only of his son, Vladimir Monomakh) descendants, hence the aforementioned Russian author's stance. Izyaslavich branch, which has no possible rumors of legitimacy surrounding it, is I2a1b-YP196.

[cosmoo]

Doesn't this conflict with the Scandinavian origins of the Rurikid Dynasty?

Yes, because there is no solid proof that they are Scandinavian at all to begin with, as I have explained thoroughly in one of the posts.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Is this confirmed?

[Harkonnen]

The SNP that defines it is Y13498: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y13498/


As for I2a1b, among the Izyaslavich descendants that turned out to belong to it were also men of Czetwertynski family, whose princely title was acknowledged even in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

These guys were absolute nobodies. N1c1 men were de facto rulers of Poland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michał_Korybut_Wiśniowiecki

Wiki article still claims Michal Korybut was Gediminid eventho dna testing proved he was actually Rurikid


Last but not least are the results of Prince Korybut-Woroniecki. His 25 markers were tested by Marek Skarbek-Kozielulski in his genetic project. He simply believed that he is a Gediminid prince. However, the test result confirmed what some historians had said: that he is a Rurikid. The Rurikid Project has ordered an upgrade for him to 67 markers. Nevertheless, this is what can be said now: Vasily Shuysky by no means was the last Rurikid on the Russian throne, at least in a genetic sense of the word "Rurikid". The last ruling Rurikid was the King of Poland and the Grand Duke of Lithuania Michal Korybut-Wisniowiecki (the Wisniowieckis and the Woronieckis are related by blood).

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/rurikid/about/news

[Harkonnen]

Is this confirmed?

Nope.

[Harkonnen]

Yes, because there is no solid proof that they are Scandinavian at all to begin with, as I have explained thoroughly in one of the posts.

:D

[cosmoo]

Is this confirmed?
The only doubtless confirmation would be testing of skeletal remains of Rurikids which are at the same time not Vsevolod or his descendants. But, I will repeat, there is reason to doubt paternity of Vsevolod's branch (N1c1), while there is as of now none to doubt paternity of Iziaslav's branch (I2a1b).

These guys were absolute nobodies. N1c1 men were de facto rulers of Poland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michał_Korybut_Wiśniowiecki

Wiki article still claims Michal Korybut was Gediminid eventho dna testing proved he was actually Rurikid



https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/rurikid/about/news
I am not talking about status of Czetwertynskis in PLC (and they were far from "absolute nobodies"), but about the fact that they are descendants of Sviatoslav II, Grand Prince of Kiev, son of Iziaslav, and therefore Rurikids.

As for the king you bring up, you forget that kings were elected in PLC, and that rule of that particular king only lasted for around 4 years, so "N1c1 men were rulers of Poland" doesn't stand true in long run at all.

[Peterski]

These guys were absolute nobodies. N1c1 men were de facto rulers of Poland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michał_Korybut_Wiśniowiecki

Yeah, but he was probably the worst king in all of Poland's history. Nothing to be proud of.

[Harkonnen]

The only doubtless confirmation would be testing of skeletal remains of Rurikids which are at the same time not Vsevolod or his descendants. But, I will repeat, there is reason to doubt paternity of Vsevolod's branch (N1c1), while there is as of now none to doubt paternity of Iziaslav's branch (I2a1b).

I am not talking about status of Czetwertynskis in PLC (and they were far from "absolute nobodies"), but about the fact that they are descendants of Sviatoslav II, Grand Prince of Kiev, son of Iziaslav, and therefore Rurikids.

As for the king you bring up, you forget that kings were elected in PLC, and that rule of that particular king only lasted for around 4 years, so "N1c1 men were rulers of Poland" doesn't stand true in long run at all.

You are just butthurt that I2 men have always been and will always be absolute shit. We N1c1 men were born to rule and dominate.

[Harkonnen]

Yeah, but he was probably the worst king in all of Poland's history. Nothing to be proud of.

Did you forget so soon all the Gediminid N1c1 men who ruled Poles :)

[cosmoo]

You are just butthurt that I2 men have always been and will always be absolute shit. We N1c1 men were born to rule and dominate.

I do not want to engage in haplogroupism back and forth exchange, but this is a bold claim coming from someone whose land was a perpetual doormat through history for its neighbors. Pekkas were even enslaved and hunted out of sport in Republic of Novgorod.

[Harkonnen]

I do not want to engage in haplogroupism back and forth exchange, but this is a bold claim coming from someone whose land was a perpetual doormat through history for its neighbors. Pekkas were even enslaved and hunted out of sport in Republic of Novgorod.

No we weren't you fucking balkanite shit nigger. N1c1 men ruled your nigger ass

[Vlatko Vukovic]

No we weren't you fucking balkanite shit nigger. N1c1 men ruled your nigger ass

N1c1 never ruled anyone on Balkans. It was always a great minority on the Balkans. And if you are so convinced that N1c1 is "best race", then say me which one great Empire was ruled by N1c1 man?

[Harkonnen]

I'm seriously so Fed up with this Balkanite filth raping our land. Bunch of criminals, thugs, pimps and whores.

[Harkonnen]

N1c1 never ruled anyone on Balkans. It was always a great minority on the Balkans. And if you are so convinced that N1c1 is "best race", then say me which one great Empire was ruled by N1c1 man?

Stop lying son of balkanite whore. I swear your people will burn.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Stop lying son of balkanite whore. I swear your people will burn.

You are primitive Siberian mongol, what can i expect from you except insulting? Again: Say me 1 ruler N1c1 of some great Empire?


I swear your people will burn.

Finns would be lost among the Balkanite wolves. Come among the wolves!

[Harkonnen]

You are primitive Siberian mongol, what can i expect from you except insulting? Again: Say me 1 ruler N1c1 of some great Empire?



Finns would be lost among the Balkanite wolves. Come among the wolves!

Have raped someone or stealen money already today

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Have raped someone

Yes, some Finnish whore, of N1c1 sibero-mongol father

[Pribislav]

N1c1 never ruled anyone on Balkans. It was always a great minority on the Balkans. And if you are so convinced that N1c1 is "best race", then say me which one great Empire was ruled by N1c1 man?

This former president of Serbia is N2-Y6503 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Tadić
He was one of the worst rulers in Serbian history and psychopat.

[Harkonnen]

Yes, some Finnish whore, of N1c1 sibero-mongol father

Good that you admit your true essence.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

This former president of Serbia is N2-Y6503 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Tadić
He was one of the worst rulers in Serbian history and psychopat.

Yeah i know Boris Tadić. Not a significant president of Serbia surely.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Good that you admit your true essence.

What can i do? That's my job.

[Dandelion]

Europe used to be predestined to be dominated by Finno-Ugrics, until those perfidious Indo-Europeans got in-between. Hungarians as Finno-Ugrics did their fair share of oppressing Indo-European speakers, regardless.

[Harkonnen]

What can i do? That's my job.

Oh mygod you people are unbelievable

I'm so much entertained.

[Pribislav]

Yeah i know Boris Tadić. Not a significant president of Serbia surely.

He has a Montenegrin origin.
Montenegro is stronghold of exotic haplogroups in the Balkans such as N2-Y6503, Q-Y2209, L-M349, J2a-M92... There is more haplogroups in Montenegro than in Brazil. :)

[Pribislav]

....

[Harkonnen]

N1c1 never ruled anyone on Balkans. It was always a great minority on the Balkans. And if you are so convinced that N1c1 is "best race", then say me which one great Empire was ruled by N1c1 man?

Russia under Rurikids (proper N1c1 Rurikids) was greatest Empire ever created by man.

Jagelloonians were once Kings of Serbia, Bulgaria, Croatia etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagiellonian_dynasty

N1c1 ruled Balkanites. Fact.

[Harkonnen]

At one point, the Jagiellonians established dynastic control also over the kingdoms of Bohemia and Hungary (from 1490 onwards), with Vladislaus Jagiello whom several history books call Vladisla(u)s II. After being elected and crowned King of Hungary, Vladislaus moved his court to Hungary from where he ruled both countries and his children were born and raised. By Louis' sudden death in Battle of Mohács in 1526, that royal line was extinguished in male line.

N1c1 Kings of Croatia. Robocunts peasant ancestors bowed to these men:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_II_of_Hungary
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladislaus_II_of_Hungary

[cosmoo]

He has a Montenegrin origin.
Montenegro is stronghold of exotic haplogroups in the Balkans such as N2-Y6503, Q-Y2209, L-M349, J2a-M92... There is more haplogroups in Montenegro than in Brazil. :)

All of which exist in surrounding lands and do not make up over 4% even when they are all taken into account together, what makes them apparent is clan system. I've explained this several times over to you, dimwit.
And J2a-M92 can not be classed as "exotic" at all.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Russia under Rurikids (proper N1c1 Rurikids) was greatest Empire ever created by man.

Jagelloonians were once Kings of Serbia, Bulgaria, Croatia etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagiellonian_dynasty

N1c1 ruled Balkanites. Fact.

Ivan Grozny just established the Russian Empire, which will be later RISED under the Peter the Great and later Romanovs.

Jagiellonians ruled just part of those countries, and those are not big parts:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Europa_Jagellonica.svg/517px-Europa_Jagellonica.svg.png

Angry Pukki, angry Pukki

[Pribislav]

All of which exist in surrounding lands and do not make up over 4% even when they are all taken into account together, what makes them apparent is clan system. I've explained this several times over to you, dimwit.
And J2a-M92 can not be classed as "exotic" at all.

Albanians also have tribal system and they don't have so much haplogroups as Montenegrins.
Majority of Montenegrin tribes have more than 1 haplogroups, mostly 2 or 3, and some tribes even more like Paštrovići who have 5-6 haplogroups.
Btw only Montenegrins and Albanians have real tribal system in Europe. Scottish clans are something different from Montenegrin/Albanian tribes.

[cosmoo]

Albanians also have tribal system and they don't have so much haplogroups as Montenegrins.
Majority of Montenegrin tribes have more than 1 haplogroups, mostly 2 or 3, and some tribes even more like Paštrovići who have 5-6 haplogroups.
Btw only Montenegrins and Albanians have real tribal system in Europe. Scottish clans are somrthing different from Montenegrin/Albanian tribes.
Do not take Albanians as attempt of an example. Every European country has haplogroups unusual for its position - in Norway you can find G2a, E1b, Q, and even A haplogroup, whose bearers are ethnic Norwegians - yet they are stasticially insignificant. Same goes for Montenegro, what makes those haplogroups apparent is that you can eventually tie every haplogroup to a specific clan.
And clans which have several haplogroups know of their heterogenity very well, as there are several types of clans, i.e. those who are united by common paternal ancestry (Vasojević, Drobnjak, Bratonožići, Kuči, Ozrinići, etc.), or those who formed by several separate brotherhoods uniting (Cuce, Uskoci, etc.).

[Harkonnen]

Balkans

[TeutonicBoyars]

Original study in Russian:
https://space-time.ru/space-time/article/view/2226-7271provr_st3-21.2015.71
https://space-time.ru/space-time/article/download/2226-7271provr_st3-21.2015.71/207/

TL;DR - Vsevolod (and hence, his son Vladimir Monomah) of N1c1 Y-DNA are product of non-paternal event which happened between Yaroslav's wife, Ingergerd of Sweden, and king St. Olaf of Norway, while original Rurikids, preserved through families of Izyaslavich branch, such as princes of Turov, belong to I2a-CTS10228.

Thanks for this study. Unfortunately I can't read it myself since I don't read/speak Russian, and I'm still having a hard time grasping what this means for some reason. Basically, is this study implying that Rurik (or whatever historical figure he was based off of) was originally I2a? If that's the case then that raises some questions, because aristocratic Russian genealogy is the most confusing construct in all of European royalty. I know that Ivan the Terrible himself had the idea that Rurik was originally a Prussian (I assume he meant a Balt, but then again Slavs were often equated with Prussians in the past), and then later on a diplomat in the Russian Empire (who himself was a Rurikid, unfortunately I can't remember his name at the moment) said that Rurik was Wendish. I know the current popular theory about Scandinavian origins of the Rurik dynasty came from German scholars working in the Russian Empire, and their primary source of evidence is the Primary Chronicle. I myself have not read the Primary Chronicle but from the summaries I see online it is never clear whether the Rus and Varagians are different people, and if the Rus themselves are Slavs. However, from what I understand it seems heavily implied that the Rus, or at the very least the Ruriks are of Scandinavian origin. But again, I've never read the Primary Chronicle and I am entirely opened to education o nthe subject especially since we have new technology like DNA testing to help shed some light on history.

What is your opinion/theory on this, and if you believe the theory of the Norse origins of the Rus is inaccurate, why do you think it has become so popular among historians?

[Jana]

At one point, the Jagiellonians established dynastic control also over the kingdoms of Bohemia and Hungary (from 1490 onwards), with Vladislaus Jagiello whom several history books call Vladisla(u)s II. After being elected and crowned King of Hungary, Vladislaus moved his court to Hungary from where he ruled both countries and his children were born and raised. By Louis' sudden death in Battle of Mohács in 1526, that royal line was extinguished in male line.

N1c1 Kings of Croatia. Robocunts peasant ancestors bowed to these men:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_II_of_Hungary
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladislaus_II_of_Hungary

Robocop is descended from one branch of most Powerful Croatian Noble family of all time, magnates in both Croatia and Hungary, so this sounds quite funny.

[Harkonnen]

Robocop is descended from one branch of most Powerful Croatian Noble family of all time, magnates in both Croatia and Hungary, so this sounds quite funny.

LMAO, For some reason I find this very hard to believe.

So Stearsolina, do you have any relatives involved in criminal activity? Perhaps in Finland :)

[Jana]

LMAO, For some reason I find this very hard to believe.

So Stearsolina, do you have any relatives involved in criminal activity? Perhaps in Finland :)

He is subic, and subic is old name for counts of Zrinski when They lived in northern Dalmatia before moving their eatates to the north. Part Remained in the south (side branches)https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zrinski_family

There are no Croats in Finland except individual occurences to my knowledge.

[Harkonnen]

He is subic, and subic is old name for counts of Zrinski when They lived in northern Croatia before moving their eatates to the north. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zrinski_family

There are no Croats in Finland except individual occurences to my knowledge.

He could be descended from Subic slaves. I know for example Yuri Gagarin (the cosmonaut) was descended from slaves. His ancestors were serfs under Rurikid Gagarin family, so thus he got his name from there. Blacks in America smilarily got slave names from their Masters.

[Jana]

He could be descended from Subic slaves. I know for example Yuri Gagarin (the cosmonaut) was descended from slaves. His ancestors were serfs under Rurikid Gagarin family, so thus he got his name from there. Blacks in America smilarily got slave names from their Masters.

:D

I like Finaland a lot and don't umderstand what Robo has against northern Europeans. Ignorante I guess, like They have towards us :P

[Jana]

He could be descended from Subic slaves. I know for example Yuri Gagarin (the cosmonaut) was descended from slaves. His ancestors were serfs under Rurikid Gagarin family, so thus he got his name from there. Blacks in America smilarily got slave names from their Masters.

:D

I like Finland a lot and don't umderstand what Robo has against northern Europeans. Ignorante I guess, like They have towards us :P

[Jana]

PS you
Could say N1c Men ruled Poles, Croats etc. Who are Slavic, but we can also say R1a ruled Uralic Magyars because House of Arpad was R1a.

[Lucas]

Original study in Russian:
https://space-time.ru/space-time/article/view/2226-7271provr_st3-21.2015.71
https://space-time.ru/space-time/article/download/2226-7271provr_st3-21.2015.71/207/

TL;DR - Vsevolod (and hence, his son Vladimir Monomah) of N1c1 Y-DNA are product of non-paternal event which happened between Yaroslav's wife, Ingergerd of Sweden, and king St. Olaf of Norway, while original Rurikids, preserved through families of Izyaslavich branch, such as princes of Turov, belong to I2a-CTS10228.

How do they know what was original Rurik haplogroup?

And who guarantee there wasn't NPE in Izyaslavich branch? Without Rurik haplo it is pure speculation.

Like R1b in Piast dynasty when they were tested lines few hundred younger than first known prince Mieszko I.

[Jackson78]

He is subic, and subic is old name for counts of Zrinski when They lived in northern Dalmatia before moving their eatates to the north. Part Remained in the south (side branches)https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zrinski_family

There are no Croats in Finland except individual occurences to my knowledge.

Ovo mi je čudno, mislio sam da Šubići nemaju potomstva do današnjih vremena.

[Jana]

Ovo mi je čudno, mislio sam da Šubići nemaju potomstva do današnjih vremena.

Pitaj ga.

[Lucas]

How do they know what was original Rurik haplogroup?

And who guarantee there wasn't NPE in Izyaslavich branch? Without Rurik haplo it is pure speculation.

Like R1b in Piast dynasty when they were tested lines few hundred younger than first known prince Mieszko I.

It was just 5th generation after Rurik

https://s22.postimg.cc/naatcmaen/Bez-nazwy-5.jpg

[Peterski]

So Yngvi was N1c? :)

Olaf II of Norway = apparently he had N1c haplogroup,
was son of Harald Grenske, who
was son of Gudrød Bjørnsson, who
was son of Bjørn Farmann, who
was son of Harald Fairhair, who
was son of Halfdan the Black, who
was son of Gudrød the Hunter, who
was son of Halfdan the Mild, who
was son of Eystein Halfdansson, who
was son of Halfdan Hvitbeinn, who
was son of Olof Trätälja, who
was son of Ingjald illråde, who
was son of Anund, who
was son of Yngvar Harra, who
was son of Eysteinn, who
was son of Eadgils (in Beowulf), who
was son of Óttarr vendilkráka (Ohthere in Beowulf), who
was son of Egil Vendelkråke (Ongentheow in Beowulf), who
was son of Aun the Old, who
was son of Jorund, who
was son of Yngvi, who
was son of Alrek, who
was son of Agne, who
was son of Dag the Wise , who
was son of Dyggvi, who
was son of Domar, who
was son of Domalde, who
was son of Visbur, who
was son of Vanlandi, who
was son of Sveigðir, who
was son of Fjölnir, who
was son of Freyr, who
was son of Njörðr, who
was son of Yngvi = founder of the Yngling dynasty, N1c haplogroup.

[Peterski]

DNA of prince Gleb Svyatoslavovich from the grave in Chernihiv cathedral was tested, he was I2a-Din and not N1c:

Gleb Svyatoslavovich in this publication about Viking Age DNA is the sample VK542:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/703405v1

If I'm not mistaken, Gleb Svyatoslavovich was directly descended from Rurik himself.

And since he was I2a-Din, it makes the theory about I2a-Din Rurik more probable.

In terms of autosomal DNA, Gleb Svyatoslavovich (VK542) was ca. 71% Slavic and ca. 25% South Euro (Table S6):

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/07/17/703405/DC3/embed/media-3.xlsx?download=true

=====

Another Rurikid prince tested in this publication was Izyaslav Ingvarovich - his haplogroup was R1a-L1029.

In terms of autosomal DNA, Izyaslav Ingvarovich (buried in Lutsk) - sample VK541 - was over 95% Slavic.

[Cumansky]

Stfu Peterski lol

[Dick]

Stfu Peterski lol

What if you're a Rurikski?

[Cumansky]

What if you're a Rurikski?

I am alot of things.

The difference between me and Peterski, I know exactly what is my direct paternal line and he is obsession about trying to find out my direct paternal line.

Prove I am Varangian Guard from Romania Peterski. You can't prove it. When you can prove that undisputed, come talk to me.

[Jackson78]

So, cosmoo was right after all.

[Cumansky]

There is more to it, isn't that the subclade with mostly Ukrainians, and some Finns and Hungarians?

If yes that subclade split in Ukraine, and the other I2 subclades split in Romania, Moldova, Serbia IIRC.

[Cumansky]

Peterski has Jew Y-DNA out here trying degrade nobility

[Peterski]

Coming back to Gleb's autosomal DNA (his grandmother was Ingegerd):

Ingegerd's mother would be "Polish-like":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrid_of_the_Obotrites

Ingegerd's paternal grandmother too (daughter of Mieszko I & Doubravka):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Awi%C4%99tos%C5%82awa

So Ingegerd could be >3/4 "Polish-like" autosomally, not "Swedish-like"...

[Cumansky]

Peterski think this TMZ hot gossip lol or Entertainment Tonight or Extra

[Dick]

Peterski think this TMZ hot gossip lol or Entertainment Tonight or Extra

lmao

[Daos777]

This proves the Ruriks were actually Balkanites and they went deep into Slavic women and some Scandinavian women. Left nothing but the nuts hanging out. That’s why that Swedish dude is mad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dominator]

Obviously, the fact that the Prince of Turov are not original Rurikovich. Distant not paternal
I2a-CTS10228 - quite often meet around Polesia ..

[Dick]

Obviously, the fact that the Prince of Turov are not original Rurikovich. Distant not paternal
I2a-CTS10228 - quite often meet around Polesia ..

That's probably where it originated

[Dominator]

That's probably where it originated

This means that the princes of Turov are indigenous to this region. Their origin from Rurik is not proven, just their family legend (perhaps he is a myth)

[Dick]

This means that the princes of Turov are indigenous to this region. Their origin from Rurik is not proven, just their family legend (perhaps he is a myth)

Rurik might have been invited to Novgorod as an auxiliary to one of several local parties competing for power. The establishment of his own power there under these circumstances was probably achieved through usurpation.

[Artek]

Rurik might have been invited to Novgorod as an auxiliary to one of several local parties competing for power. The establishment of his own power there under these circumstances was probably achieved through usurpation.

Obviously they didn't know about the DNA tests to verify it.

Only Chetwertynski was tested I2a1b-CTS10228, so he was likely a descendant of local influential and loyal guy to Rurikoviches. The rest was fabricated to legitimise his power. That's all, there was likely no NPE unless Volkonsky and Obolensky princes were descendants of a handsome flunkey as well but I don't think they were.