Lebanese Gedmatch result from Baalbek!

[Haider]

Shiite Muslim result from the historical Canaanite city of Baalbek in the Bekaa Valley. I honestly expected higher Red Sea due to the proximity to Syria, but apparently I was wrong. It only confirms that Lebanese Shiites have been historically very endogamous and haven't mixed much with outsiders, unlike the Sunni community in the Levant that is very heterogeneous. The slight European input is normal since all Levantine Muslims and even some Christians score it due to the Crusades. What is odd is the source of this input, it seems to be something Germanic instead of the usual French.

https://www.offbeattravelling.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Map-Baalbek.jpg?x61063

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 45.21
2 West_Asian 20.89
3 West_Med 14.63
4 Red_Sea 9.46
5 North_Atlantic 5.85
6 South_Asian 1.35
7 Northeast_African 1.12
8 Oceanian 0.78
9 Baltic 0.6
10 Sub-Saharan 0.3
11 East_Asian 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Lebanese_Muslim 4.75
2 Lebanese_Druze 5.33
3 Lebanese_Christian 5.83
4 Samaritan 6.45
5 Cyprian 6.71
6 Syrian 7.58
7 Palestinian 8.71
8 Jordanian 9.22
9 Kurdish_Jewish 10.62
10 Iranian_Jewish 10.89
11 Tunisian_Jewish 11.11
12 Libyan_Jewish 11.93
13 Assyrian 12.3
14 Sephardic_Jewish 13.71
15 Italian_Jewish 14.9
16 Algerian_Jewish 15.16
17 East_Sicilian 15.33
18 Georgian_Jewish 16.08
19 Turkish 17.36
20 Ashkenazi 17.87

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 53.8% Lebanese_Muslim + 46.2% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.51
2 57.1% Lebanese_Druze + 42.9% Cyprian @ 2.61
3 72.3% Lebanese_Druze + 27.7% Libyan_Jewish @ 2.98
4 91.4% Lebanese_Druze + 8.6% Sardinian @ 3.1
5 71.1% Lebanese_Druze + 28.9% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.11
6 77.6% Lebanese_Druze + 22.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.17
7 80.8% Lebanese_Druze + 19.2% South_Italian @ 3.18
8 87.8% Lebanese_Druze + 12.2% Italian_Abruzzo @ 3.19
9 61.9% Lebanese_Druze + 38.1% Syrian @ 3.25
10 76.1% Lebanese_Druze + 23.9% Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.3
11 51.2% Kurdish_Jewish + 48.8% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.31
12 82.2% Lebanese_Druze + 17.8% East_Sicilian @ 3.31
13 92.7% Lebanese_Christian + 7.3% West_Scottish @ 3.37
14 92.7% Lebanese_Christian + 7.3% Irish @ 3.37
15 88.1% Lebanese_Druze + 11.9% Tuscan @ 3.39
16 92.5% Lebanese_Christian + 7.5% Danish @ 3.4
17 92.4% Lebanese_Christian + 7.6% Southeast_English @ 3.4
18 92.6% Lebanese_Christian + 7.4% Orcadian @ 3.41
19 92.6% Lebanese_Christian + 7.4% Southwest_English @ 3.41
20 92.6% Lebanese_Christian + 7.4% North_Dutch @ 3.43

[happycow]

Nice! Red Sea always seems lower in Lebanese compare to Palestinians.

Do Lebanese generally have French and Italian input rather than English and German? My mother seems to have English, German, French and Italian input. I am guessing the French and Italian comes from her Lebanese grandmother.

[StonyArabia]

Interesting basically a Levantine with European shift.

[Haider]

Nice! Red Sea always seems lower in Lebanese compare to Palestinians.

Do Lebanese generally have French and Italian input rather than English and German? My mother seems to have English, German, French and Italian input. I am guessing the French and Italian comes from her Lebanese grandmother.

Yeah, usually Southern French/Northern Italian.

[Aren]

The "Northern Euro" in Lebanese Muslims is Iranic, which is why they often score lower West Med than Christian Levantines despite Italians scoring a lot higher than either.
This is also easy to pin out in nMonte.

[Haider]

The "Northern Euro" in Lebanese Muslims is Iranic, which is why they often score lower West Med than Christian Levantines despite Italians scoring a lot higher than either.
This is also easy to pin out in nMonte.

Not really. 14% is pretty much the average for Christians as well. What they do score lower is Red Sea.

[Aren]

Not really. 14% is pretty much the average for Christians as well. What they do score lower is Red Sea.

This is if we go by the ones you are posting, but we know how biased you are. The ones I've seen on Gedmatch score more in line with the Lebanese Muslim average, which is around 13%. Christians score around 15-16%, often times the North Atlantic most Christians score is just purely Med/Anatolian. It's not a purely Northern Euro component. So their total Anatolian input is quite high.
And yes obviously the Red Sea got lowered because of the Iranic, African and Mesopotamian input.

A simple nMonte run shows this

"distance%=1.0242"

Lebanese_Muslim

Lebanese_Christian,43.6
Palestinian,32.4
Iran_recent,12.8
Assyrian,8.6
French,2.6

A really good fit.
Noise level French input does not explain the Euro shift. But the 13% Iranian sure does. And the African obviously comes from mixing with Arabian shifted neigbours such as Palestinians.

[Haider]

This is if we go by the ones you are posting, but we know how biased you are. The ones I've seen on Gedmatch score more in line with the Lebanese Muslim average, which is around 13%. Christians score around 15-16%, often times the North Atlantic most Christians score is just purely Med/Anatolian. It's not a purely Northern Euro component. So their total Anatolian input is quite high.
And yes obviously the Red Sea got lowered because of the Iranic, African and Mesopotamian input.

A simple nMonte run shows this

"distance%=1.0242"

Lebanese_Muslim

Lebanese_Christian,43.6
Palestinian,32.4
Iran_recent,12.8
Assyrian,8.6
French,2.6

A really good fit.
Noise level French input does not explain the Euro shift. But the 13% Iranian sure does. And the African obviously comes from mixing with Arabian shifted neigbours such as Palestinians.

What you fail to understand is the difference between Sunnis and Shiites that I explained several times. Yes, some Sunnis do score higher 'Mesopitamian' due to the Mhallami/Assyrian Muslim migration which I addressed several times before. And no, there's no recorded 'Iranian' migration into the region, just a few Kurds that came as high officials during Mamluk times. I could run several models on nMonte with several different populations and in the end it wouldn't mean anything. That 'Lebanese Muslim' average could still be modeled as 80% Sidonian Bronze age and 20% Armenian/Anatolian Bronze age, or several different other models, which could also explain the higher European-like admixture. In the end it's just speculation and that's why I prefer Gedmatch which is much more to the point.

About the results I post being 'biased', I don't know what you're talking about. Like I said before, I always state the person's sect to avoid confusion. If you notice some of the Sunnis I posted did have extra Mesopotamian/Anatolian input, but they were also the ones who tended to score the highest European admixture as well and would basically plot with Cypriots.

This result I posted, however, is a Shiite. I don't know if you're aware but Lebanese Shiites, also known as Metawilleh, are the only Shiite population in the Levant and as such they remained fairly isolated. Until fairly recent, due to heavy persecution, they were a relatively very small population and only recent experienced strong population growth. They are also the founding population of both the Alawite and Unitarian (Druze) movements, whose followers are considered some of the most genetically isolated populations in the region, and not surprisingly will often score similarly to the above result.

[Aren]

What you fail to understand is the difference between Sunnis and Shiites that I explained several times. Yes, some Sunnis do score higher 'Mesopitamian' due to the Mhallami/Assyrian Muslim migration which I addressed several times before. And no, there's no recorded 'Iranian' migration into the region, just a few Kurds that came as high officials during Mamluk times. I could run several models on nMonte with several different populations and in the end it wouldn't mean anything. That 'Lebanese Muslim' average could still be modeled as 80% Sidonian Bronze age and 20% Armenian/Anatolian Bronze age, or several different other models, which could also explain the higher European-like admixture. In the end it's just speculation and that's why I prefer Gedmatch which is much more to the point.

About the results I post being 'biased', I don't know what you're talking about. Like I said before, I always state the person's sect to avoid confusion. If you notice some of the Sunnis I posted did have extra Mesopotamian/Anatolian input, but they were also the ones who tended to score the highest European admixture as well and would basically plot with Cypriots.

This result I posted, however, is a Shiite. I don't know if you're aware but Lebanese Shiites, also known as Metawilleh, are the only Shiite population in the Levant and as such they remained fairly isolated. Until fairly recent, due to heavy persecution, they were a relatively very small population and only recent experienced strong population growth. They are also the founding population of both the Alawite and Unitarian (Druze) movements, whose followers are considered some of the most genetically isolated populations in the region, and not surprisingly will often score similarly to the above result.

"Recorded migrations" tell us very little tbh. There could've been small movements throughout a longer period. I'm sure many Shia families in Lebanon claim Persian descent. It could also be due to mixing with Iraqi Shia who are heavily Iranic shifted. MENA Muslims, especially Arabs seem to have been very open to mixing with other Muslims. I would not be surprised if the situation is more complicated than simply a Levantine base + some Mesopotamian + some small amount of Crusader input in Lebanese Muslims. There are typical Arabic uniparental markers in both Shia and Sunni in Lebanon with rather recent TMRCA. Which could explain the elevated African you guys score.

Gedmatch is even worse, every calculator will tell you a slightly different thing. You think someone scoring 1% more Baltic or North Atlantic on Eurogenes K13 has Crusader, that if anything is pure speculation. I even score 2% Baltic in Eurogenes K13 but on other calculators I score lower Northern Euro than other Assyrians and many times I get 0% genuine Northern Euro. Gedmatch is unreliable when it comes to these small shifts.
My nMonte run is perfectly relevant to Lebanese Muslims, it shows a Lebanese Christian base with the West Asian shift being not only Mesopotamian but also Iranian. And with a very good fit aswell. I prefer to trust the academic samples of Lebanese rather than the individuals you chose to post here on TA.
How are you even sure if these are Shia, Sunni or mixed? Basically no MENA:s use Gedcoms, are you contacting them or what?

Btw that number, 80% Sidon_BA is accurate for Levantine Christians not Muslims. This is what I get for Lebanese Muslims.

"distance%=1.7944"

Lebanese_Muslim

Levant_BA_North,58
Armenia_MLBA,26.6
Anatolia_MLBA,13
Dinka,2.4

[Sikeliot]

The "Northern Euro" in Lebanese Muslims is Iranic, which is why they often score lower West Med than Christian Levantines despite Italians scoring a lot higher than either.
This is also easy to pin out in nMonte.

If this was the case, this person would score a mixture of Lebanese and Iranian, not Lebanese and Dutch/German/English. It is clearly some kind of Germanic input.



# Population (source) Distance
1 Lebanese_Muslim 4.75
2 Lebanese_Druze 5.33
3 Lebanese_Christian 5.83
4 Samaritan 6.45
5 Cyprian 6.71
6 Syrian 7.58
7 Palestinian 8.71
8 Jordanian 9.22
9 Kurdish_Jewish 10.62
10 Iranian_Jewish 10.89
11 Tunisian_Jewish 11.11
12 Libyan_Jewish 11.93
13 Assyrian 12.3
14 Sephardic_Jewish 13.71
15 Italian_Jewish 14.9
16 Algerian_Jewish 15.16
17 East_Sicilian 15.33
18 Georgian_Jewish 16.08
19 Turkish 17.36
20 Ashkenazi 17.87

:cool::D:thumb001:

[Aren]

If this was the case, this person would score a mixture of Lebanese and Iranian, not Lebanese and Dutch/German/English. It is clearly some kind of Germanic input.



:cool::D:thumb001:

I won't even try to make you understand how Gedmatch oracles work.

[Sikeliot]

I won't even try to make you understand how Gedmatch oracles work.


That person, if it was due to Iranic input, would shift away from Lebanon and toward Iran, but they don't. They clearly have excess North European input that can only be modeled with people who have Western European input.

[Nazarene]

I'd rather get the kit number than some cherry picked calculators tbh

[Aren]

That person, if it was due to Iranic input, would shift away from Lebanon and toward Iran, but they don't. They clearly have excess North European input that can only be modeled with people who have Western European input.

I was modelling the Lebanese Muslim average on nMonte, not that guy that Haider posted. I didn't think it would be difficult to figure that out.
Gedmatch oracles are not in any way 100% accurate when it comes to these small shifts within Western Eurasia. Like I said, I prefer to look at academic collected samples rather than carefully selected individuals on anthroboards.
So far no paper or anything of the like has pointed to a Crusader input in the Levant.

[Haider]

"Recorded migrations" tell us very little tbh. There could've been small movements throughout a longer period. I'm sure many Shia families in Lebanon claim Persian descent. It could also be due to mixing with Iraqi Shia who are heavily Iranic shifted. MENA Muslims, especially Arabs seem to have been very open to mixing with other Muslims. I would not be surprised if the situation is more complicated than simply a Levantine base + some Mesopotamian + some small amount of Crusader input in Lebanese Muslims. There are typical Arabic uniparental markers in both Shia and Sunni in Lebanon with rather recent TMRCA. Which could explain the elevated African you guys score.

Gedmatch is even worse, every calculator will tell you a slightly different thing. You think someone scoring 1% more Baltic or North Atlantic on Eurogenes K13 has Crusader, that if anything is pure speculation. I even score 2% Baltic in Eurogenes K13 but on other calculators I score lower Northern Euro than other Assyrians and many times I get 0% genuine Northern Euro. Gedmatch is unreliable when it comes to these small shifts.
My nMonte run is perfectly relevant to Lebanese Muslims, it shows a Lebanese Christian base with the West Asian shift being not only Mesopotamian but also Iranian. And with a very good fit aswell. I prefer to trust the academic samples of Lebanese rather than the individuals you chose to post here on TA.
How are you even sure if these are Shia, Sunni or mixed? Basically no MENA:s use Gedcoms, are you contacting them or what?

Btw that number, 80% Sidon_BA is accurate for Levantine Christians not Muslims. This is what I get for Lebanese Muslims.

"distance%=1.7944"

Lebanese_Muslim

Levant_BA_North,58
Armenia_MLBA,26.6
Anatolia_MLBA,13
Dinka,2.4

High African, high Arabian, high Persian.. meh, still the West Asian population plotting autosomally closest to Europe. Not sure why you get upset about this already well known fact.

[Aren]

High African, high Arabian, high Persian.. meh, still the West Asian population plotting autosomally closest to Europe. Not sure why you get upset about this already well known fact.

That would be Turks and Cypriots. Beyond that the distance is quite close between other West Asians. Not sure why you felt the need to mention this though? Not like this is indicative of anything. Lebanese Muslims have had their native Levantine input deluted by different kind of admixtures which has made them be slightly closer to Europeans. It's pretty artificial. nMonte tells us quite clearly that there must be some Arab input in Lebanese Muslims due to their elevated African. The West Asian is a bit uncertain since we don't have any ancient genomes from Mesopotamia yet, but I'm pretty sure there's some Persian in Lebanese Shiites atleast.

Distance to Belarusians
[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Turkish_Kayseri Lebanese_Muslim Lebanese_Druze Armenian
18.80946 21.06932 21.49083 21.50141
Assyrian Lebanese_Christian Georgian_Imer Mozabite
21.79019 22.11527 22.14897 29.18246

Scottish
[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Turkish_Kayseri Lebanese_Muslim Lebanese_Druze Armenian
16.58587 18.64072 18.84033 19.00391
Assyrian Lebanese_Christian Georgian_Imer Mozabite
19.36584 19.39867 19.87721 27.04689

Now go fap.

[Lauχum]

Only 0.3% SSA, which is noise-tier.

I wonder if Shiites are similar to Lebanese Christians in the sense that they've been relatively endogamous and thus do not have the 1-2% SSA found in the Lebanese_Muslim samples . Is Lebanese_Muslim a Sunni or Shia population? I wish geneticists were more specific with their labelling... :mad:

[StonyArabia]

What you fail to understand is the difference between Sunnis and Shiites that I explained several times. Yes, some Sunnis do score higher 'Mesopitamian' due to the Mhallami/Assyrian Muslim migration which I addressed several times before. And no, there's no recorded 'Iranian' migration into the region, just a few Kurds that came as high officials during Mamluk times. I could run several models on nMonte with several different populations and in the end it wouldn't mean anything. That 'Lebanese Muslim' average could still be modeled as 80% Sidonian Bronze age and 20% Armenian/Anatolian Bronze age, or several different other models, which could also explain the higher European-like admixture. In the end it's just speculation and that's why I prefer Gedmatch which is much more to the point.

About the results I post being 'biased', I don't know what you're talking about. Like I said before, I always state the person's sect to avoid confusion. If you notice some of the Sunnis I posted did have extra Mesopotamian/Anatolian input, but they were also the ones who tended to score the highest European admixture as well and would basically plot with Cypriots.

This result I posted, however, is a Shiite. I don't know if you're aware but Lebanese Shiites, also known as Metawilleh, are the only Shiite population in the Levant and as such they remained fairly isolated. Until fairly recent, due to heavy persecution, they were a relatively very small population and only recent experienced strong population growth. They are also the founding population of both the Alawite and Unitarian (Druze) movements, whose followers are considered some of the most genetically isolated populations in the region, and not surprisingly will often score similarly to the above result.

Interesting. So the Druze and Alwaite share the same ancestry as the 12er Shia Lebanese ? Like same tribes or clans ? There was an Israeli member who kept talking from his ass about Lebanese Shias being Persian/Bedouin mix lol. He also said only Alwaites and Druze are Levantines lol. That guy was a mega troll. It seems that the Orthodox Levantine to be significantly Arabian shifted and some even score some ssa in minor levels. I don't find this strange because the Druze were an Ismaili sect. There is a small number of Alwaites in western Iraq but I don't know if they have any relation to the Levantine ones

[Nazarene]

Interesting. So the Druze and Alwaite share the same ancestry as the 12er Shia Lebanese ? Like same tribes or clans ? There was an Israeli member who kept talking from his ass about Lebanese Shias being Persian/Bedouin mix lol. He also said only Alwaites and Druze are Levantines lol. That guy was a mega troll. It seems that the Orthodox Levantine to be significantly Arabian shifted and some even score some ssa in minor levels. I don't find this strange because the Druze were an Ismaili sect. There is a small number of Alwaites in western Iraq but I don't know if they have any relation to the Levantine ones

Never heard of Alawites in Iraq, do you have any solid evidence for their existence as a community?

[StonyArabia]

Never heard of Alawites in Iraq, do you have any solid evidence for their existence as a community?

Yes they exist, though most of the community has converted to Sunnism. These are the links in Arabic about them.
http://shamela.ws/browse.php/book-36540/page-2602http://www.lovely0smile.com/Msg-7390.htmlhttp://www.lovely0smile.com/Msg-7390.html

https://www.algardenia.com/maqalat/4813-2013-06-07-17-44-22.html

[Nazarene]

Yes they exist, though most of the community has converted to Sunnism. These are the links in Arabic about them.
http://shamela.ws/browse.php/book-36540/page-2602http://www.lovely0smile.com/Msg-7390.htmlhttp://www.lovely0smile.com/Msg-7390.html

https://www.algardenia.com/maqalat/4813-2013-06-07-17-44-22.html

Thanks bro, I looked into it and wow I never knew that they were concentrated in Ana. I have read sources around in the 1800s that said there was a Christian population and even in the 1600s a pagan one in the town. It would make more sense if they were talking about Alawites as I couldn't find anything to back up that there was a Syriac Christian population or even any other Christian denomination there post-mongol period.

[Haider]

That would be Turks and Cypriots. Beyond that the distance is quite close between other West Asians. Not sure why you felt the need to mention this though? Not like this is indicative of anything. Lebanese Muslims have had their native Levantine input deluted by different kind of admixtures which has made them be slightly closer to Europeans. It's pretty artificial. nMonte tells us quite clearly that there must be some Arab input in Lebanese Muslims due to their elevated African. The West Asian is a bit uncertain since we don't have any ancient genomes from Mesopotamia yet, but I'm pretty sure there's some Persian in Lebanese Shiites atleast.

Distance to Belarusians
[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Turkish_Kayseri Lebanese_Muslim Lebanese_Druze Armenian
18.80946 21.06932 21.49083 21.50141
Assyrian Lebanese_Christian Georgian_Imer Mozabite
21.79019 22.11527 22.14897 29.18246

Scottish
[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Turkish_Kayseri Lebanese_Muslim Lebanese_Druze Armenian
16.58587 18.64072 18.84033 19.00391
Assyrian Lebanese_Christian Georgian_Imer Mozabite
19.36584 19.39867 19.87721 27.04689

Now go fap.

1. Tone down your vulgar language, you're NOT talking to some relative of yours here.

I mentioned it because if the Arabian/Persian/African/whatever inputs are so strong as you claim, how come they are still overall closer to Europe than at least other Levantines, given such admixtures should actually pull them further away from Europe? How are you able to quantify Arabian input if the Sunnis tend to score the same Red Sea as Christians, around ~12-13%, while the Shiites score less than that, usually less than 10%. About the SSA, I don't think 2% East African + plus some noisy level or 1% of actual SSA is that great . Even Samaritans can score up to 4% Northeast African. And no, there's no Persian in the Shiites, if anything it's the other way around. The Metawilleh have been Shiite since the 7th century, Persians switched from Sunnism to Shiism one millenium later in the 17th century, converted by Shiite scholars from Jabal Amel (South Lebanon) themselves.

BTW, can any European population be modelled as 80% Turkish? Because I've seen Sikiliot post some Calabrese who could be modelled as 80% Lebanese Muslim 20% French Basque.

[Haider]

Only 0.3% SSA, which is noise-tier.

I wonder if Shiites are similar to Lebanese Christians in the sense that they've been relatively endogamous and thus do not have the 1-2% SSA found in the Lebanese_Muslim samples . Is Lebanese_Muslim a Sunni or Shia population? I wish geneticists were more specific with their labelling... :mad:

Both, but more Sunnis in that reference.

Lebanese Shiites resemble the following in terms of admixture: East Med, West Asian, West Med more similar to Christians; Atlantic and whatnot closer to Sunnis; Red Sea and SSA closer to Druzes. Overall equidistant between all of them.

[FinalFlash]

So are the Christians more indigenous to the country as opposed to the muslims?

[Aren]

1. Tone down your vulgar language, you're NOT talking to some relative of yours here.

I mentioned it because if the Arabian/Persian/African/whatever inputs are so strong as you claim, how come they are still overall closer to Europe than at least other Levantines, given such admixtures should actually pull them further away from Europe? How are you able to quantify Arabian input if the Sunnis tend to score the same Red Sea as Christians, around ~12-13%, while the Shiites score less than that, usually less than 10%. About the SSA, I don't think 2% East African + plus some noisy level or 1% of actual SSA is that great . Even Samaritans can score up to 4% Northeast African. And no, there's no Persian in the Shiites, if anything it's the other way around. The Metawilleh have been Shiite since the 7th century, Persians switched from Sunnism to Shiism one millenium later in the 17th century, converted by Shiite scholars from Jabal Amel (South Lebanon) themselves.

BTW, can any European population be modelled as 80% Turkish? Because I've seen Sikiliot post some Calabrese who could be modelled as 80% Lebanese Muslim 20% French Basque.

But I keep explaining and you are too biased to understand. See how Armenians are almost as close to Northern Europeans as the Lebanese Muslims are despite the much, much more Caucasus/Iran_N input in Armenians. The reason for being slightly closer is due to the diluted of the native Levantine admix in the Muslims. Pretty artificial and not due to the noise level Northern Euro input in the Muslims.
There's an Southern input even if the Muslims score 1-2% less Red Sea cause you guys have other shifts, noteably a Caucasus shift which would've decreased Red Sea levels in turn quite drastically. Don't argue with me, argue with nMonte over how it gives you guys Palestinian in addition to Lebanese Christian. If the African was noise then it would just give you Lebanese Christian + some Armenia_MLBA. That's not the case though. Mtdna shows us that aswell as mtdna L is found in Lebanese Muslims although in lower frequencies than in other Arabs of the Levant, but it's non-existent in the Christian communities. Same with Y-DNA, typically Arabic/Bedouin haplgroups with quite young TMRCA show up in the Muslims here and there but not the Christians(so much for you Ghassanid obsession).
Like I mentioned, it's far more complicated than one might think. Mixing between various Muslims groups in the mideast seems to have been common. I've even seen Siberian input in Syrians, Lebanese Muslims and even Alawites.

Well Turks show clear Siberian input which Europeans lack so ofc it's gonna be rare to see Southern Euros be modelled as Turkish + something else.


So are the Christians more indigenous to the country as opposed to the muslims?

Obviously.
The distance with nMonte to the Bronze Age Canaanites from Sidon.
[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Samaritan Lebanese_Christian Lebanese_Druze Lebanese_Muslim
2.196454 3.195107 4.151007 4.670863
Palestinian Iraqi_Jew Jordanian
4.857059 4.876906 7.159471

[StonyArabia]

Thanks bro, I looked into it and wow I never knew that they were concentrated in Ana. I have read sources around in the 1800s that said there was a Christian population and even in the 1600s a pagan one in the town. It would make more sense if they were talking about Alawites as I couldn't find anything to back up that there was a Syriac Christian population or even any other Christian denomination there post-mongol period.

Yes they exist in Ana. It's believed that paganism existed in the area of Western Iraq as long as the 17th century. However most of these pagans would eventually melt into the dominant sect of the area which became Sunni Islam. Some say that the Ottomans and their Kurdish allies raided this city and forced the local pagan, Christian and Jewish inhabitants into Sunni Islam. However there is no record of this but this what most people from this town claim across religious lines. Also some people from that town are believed to have had Jewish origins, but were Islamized. Most of the pagan inhabitants seem to have slowly faded away probably due to conversion to Sunni Islam. The pagans seem to be of Arabian stock, however most people of the city usually have diverse origins. Turkish input in this region seem to be strong. Turks and Bedouin tribes often competed for supremacy over there. Also you will find very light skinned, blond and blue eyed people there, which might account for their diverse origins. In one family from that town all looks are expressed. In fact the Jewish community lived in this town for a long time, until the foundation of Israel in 1948. However as for the Christians there is not much information of what ethnicity they belonged to, and it seems they were few in numbers, however many Caucasians both Muslims and Christians had settled in the region, like Circassians and Nogai who had melted away, as well Armenians but most of these had converted to Islam. However Jewish elements of the city are quite strong and might indicate at one time that Judaism was the majority religion. However Bedouin tribes migrated into the region. Well the Alwaite community is very small, however they were isolated from the locals for being heretics, but many have converted to Sunni Islam. At times the Bedouin tribes would extract tributes from the local of the town in order of protection from Ottoman/Persian/Kurdish raids. The pagan element which faded was that of a Nabatean cult, which means they were practicing the same religion in pre-Islamic Arabia. However today most of people of the town are nominal Sunni Muslims, but they take this sectarian and cultural identity quite seriously.

[Nazarene]

Yes they exist in Ana. It's believed that paganism existed in the area of Western Iraq as long as the 17th century. However most of these pagans would eventually melt into the dominant sect of the area which became Sunni Islam. Some say that the Ottomans and their Kurdish allies raided this city and forced the local pagan, Christian and Jewish inhabitants into Sunni Islam. However there is no record of this but this what most people from this town claim across religious lines. Also some people from that town are believed to have had Jewish origins, but were Islamized. Most of the pagan inhabitants seem to have slowly faded away probably due to conversion to Sunni Islam. The pagans seem to be of Arabian stock, however most people of the city usually have diverse origins. Turkish input in this region seem to be strong. Turks and Bedouin tribes often competed for supremacy over there. Also you will find very light skinned, blond and blue eyed people there, which might account for their diverse origins. In one family from that town all looks are expressed. In fact the Jewish community lived in this town for a long time, until the foundation of Israel in 1948. However as for the Christians there is not much information of what ethnicity they belonged to, and it seems they were few in numbers, however many Caucasians both Muslims and Christians had settled in the region, like Circassians and Nogai who had melted away, as well Armenians but most of these had converted to Islam. However Jewish elements of the city are quite strong and might indicate at one time that Judaism was the majority religion. However Bedouin tribes migrated into the region. Well the Alwaite community is very small, however they were isolated from the locals for being heretics, but many have converted to Sunni Islam. At times the Bedouin tribes would extract tributes from the local of the town in order of protection from Ottoman/Persian/Kurdish raids. The pagan element which faded was that of a Nabatean cult, which means they were practicing the same religion in pre-Islamic Arabia. However today most of people of the town are nominal Sunni Muslims, but they take this sectarian and cultural identity quite seriously.

Definitely an example of one of the most ancient Iraqi cities, let's not forget that their Arabic was undergoing geletization like Hit and Tikrit.

[StonyArabia]

1. Tone down your vulgar language, you're NOT talking to some relative of yours here.

I mentioned it because if the Arabian/Persian/African/whatever inputs are so strong as you claim, how come they are still overall closer to Europe than at least other Levantines, given such admixtures should actually pull them further away from Europe? How are you able to quantify Arabian input if the Sunnis tend to score the same Red Sea as Christians, around ~12-13%, while the Shiites score less than that, usually less than 10%. About the SSA, I don't think 2% East African + plus some noisy level or 1% of actual SSA is that great . Even Samaritans can score up to 4% Northeast African. And no, there's no Persian in the Shiites, if anything it's the other way around. The Metawilleh have been Shiite since the 7th century, Persians switched from Sunnism to Shiism one millenium later in the 17th century, converted by Shiite scholars from Jabal Amel (South Lebanon) themselves.

BTW, can any European population be modelled as 80% Turkish? Because I've seen Sikiliot post some Calabrese who could be modelled as 80% Lebanese Muslim 20% French Basque.

Indeed if it was not for the Shia Lebanese clergy, the Persians would probably stayed Sunni to this day. Most Persians initially rejected Shiaism of the Safavids, because it was very gulat. In fact their Shiaism had very little to do with the mainstream. It was infused by local pagan believes which were mix of Zoroastrian, Tengrist, and with Shia Islamic veneer. Most Persians considered this to be very heretical. Also they considered Shah Ismail to be divine, of course this until the defeat of Chaldiran which changed things. Not to mention that the Qizilbash have their roots in another Persian mystical tradition the Khurramites. They both originated from northern most Persia/Azerbaijan. In fact many Sunni Persians took refuge in Iraq and the Arabian peninsula. In order to gain the Persians to follow Shiaism, Shah Ismail did import Shia Lebanese from Lebanon, this in order to make it more conducive, since 12er Shiaism was not that different from mainstream Sunni Islam at the time. Also at this point Shiaism was spread by peaceful means by the Shia Lebanese missionaries. Yes a lot of the people in Iran do have Lebanese origins especially those that can trace their ancestry to the original clergy created by Shah Ismail. The Sadr family actually has Lebanese origins. There were some Shia pockets in Iran but they had very little following.

People on here don't know history and often talk out of their ass on here.

Yes the Christians in the Levant have an Arabian/Ghassanid input. The Ghassanids never converted to Islam, so what would happen to them, vanish in the air. I know some Palestinian Christians that do show minor Ghassanid input as indicated by their Arabian and east African scores. I also have seen Lebanese Orthodox Christians showing bits of east African, and more of an Arabian shift than either of the Muslim populations. However I think since Shiaism is more spread then before, only know we would see Lebanese Shias having Arabian, Persian, ect mix if they mix with other Shia populations. 12er Shiaism was very small sect until the 15th century.