Ancient Anatolia Y-DNA

[Robocop]

Southern Anatolia was colonised early by Neolithic farmers and herders from the Fertile Crescent (E1b1b, G2a, J1, J2, T).

The Indo-European invasions brought the Hittites (1750 BCE), the Lydians and Lycians (1450 BCE), Phrygians (1200 BE) and the Proto-Armenians (1200 BCE). All were probably predominantly R1b-L23, considering its high percentage in the regions they settled. R1b Indo-Europeans are thought to have originated on the north-eastern shores of the Black Sea, just north of the Caucasus. They could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

Later R1b were possibly (part of) the Sea Peoples that ravaged the ancient Near Eastern civilizations, from Greece to Egypt. Their advance military technology and sea-based culture make of them very good candidates.

The Cimmerians are probably the last wave of migration (around 700 BCE) from the Pontic Steppe. By that time the steppe would have been thoroughly overrun by R1a people, so that was probably the Cimmerians's main haplogroup. They are said to have be expelled from Anatolia and moved to Europe, where they joined the other R1b people. Germanic and Celtic people both claim (partial) Cimmerian ancestry.

Map of Hittite Empire (Hittite language is the oldest known IndoEuropean language);

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Map_Hittite_rule_en.svg

[Livin]

In the eastern part of black sea region there is also the haplogroup L-M20 witch is founding among Laz people and Hemshins....


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20

[Robocop]

In the eastern part of black sea region there is also the haplogroup L-M20 witch is founding among Laz people and Hemshins....


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20

It's interesting that IE invasion on Anatolia begins somewhat at same time as IE (Aryan) invasion on Northern India. Always found that interesting.

[Livin]

It's interesting that IE invasion on Anatolia begins somewhat at same time as IE (Aryan) invasion on Northern India. Always found that interesting.

The first indoeuropean wave were the Proto-Anatolians along with Tocharians.

[Marmara]

I'm not so sure about partial Cimmerian ancestry of Celts and Germanics. They might have claimed it to link themselves to "Ancient" people, like how Romans claimed to be Anatolian.

[Livin]

I'm not so sure about partial Cimmerian ancestry of Celts and Germanics. They might have claimed it to link themselves to "Ancient" people, like how Romans claimed to be Anatolian.

Cimmerians were probably thracians or some kind of scythian tribe ,or a mix.I dont really think they had germanic or celtic ancestry but definetly indoeuropean!

[Robocop]

I'm not so sure about partial Cimmerian ancestry of Celts and Germanics. They might have claimed it to link themselves to "Ancient" people, like how Romans claimed to be Anatolian.

No way Celts were civilized man, not in those times :D, Greek wise man once wrote (durin Greek Classical period) after Greeks defeated Celts in Anatolia; Celts are "race" who knows only for war.

About Romans, Romans were one of the many IE tribes in Italy, but one extraordinary tribe (Latins) who conquered almost entire known world, in terms that in 2nd century every third person of this planet lived inside of borders of Roman Empire.

SOME Romans had ideas that they came from Troy after it's destruction, but it was only a mythology (considered as such) even durin Roman Republic times.

[Marmara]

Cimmerians were probably thracians or some kind of scythian tribe ,or a mix.I dont really think they had germanic or celtic ancestry but definetly indoeuropean!

It's the other way around, Cimmerian ancestry was claimed for Celts and Germanics.

[Robocop]

Cimmerians were probably thracians or some kind of scythian tribe ,or a mix.I dont really think they had germanic or celtic ancestry but definetly indoeuropean!

I think Thracians (when formed as ethnic) were a fusion of Proto-Indo-European Steppe people with the Neolithic inhabitants of the Carpathians (Cucuteni-Trypillian culture). As such they probably belonged to R1a (about 30%) and even I2a1b around 30%.

[Livin]

I think Thracians (when formed as ethnic) were a fusion of Proto-Indo-European Steppe people with the Neolithic inhabitants of the Carpathians (Cucuteni-Trypillian culture). As such they probably belonged to R1a (about 30%) and even I2a1b around 30%.

Indeed!In the same way i think with all the paleobalkan people.A mix of EV13,some G2a and R1a or R1b depends the steppe culture.I2a1b too!

[Robocop]

Indeed!In the same way i think with all the paleobalkan people.A mix of EV13,some G2a and R1a or R1b depends the steppe culture.I2a1b too!

Yes. Same thing happened in Greece with first arrival of Greeks (Myceneans) there, I mean not exact same thing, but same analogy, but that is totally another story I could write totally another thread, and I want to write that thread, sometimes I say I will do it tommorow, sometimes, day after tommorow ... and nothing, but will do lol

[Livin]

I think Thracians (when formed as ethnic) were a fusion of Proto-Indo-European Steppe people with the Neolithic inhabitants of the Carpathians (Cucuteni-Trypillian culture). As such they probably belonged to R1a (about 30%) and even I2a1b around 30%.

79983

Do you agree with this map?

[DarknessWin]

So the indoeuropeans in the region were Armenoids from R1b ???
Because Hittites and others there are 100% armenoids

[Livin]

Yes. Same thing happened in Greece with first arrival of Greeks (Myceneans) there, I mean not exact same thing, but same analogy, but that is totally another story I could write totally another thread, and I want to write that thread, sometimes I say I will do it tommorow, sometimes, day after tommorow ... and nothing, but will do lol

Myceneans had 25-30% steppe ancestry thats for sure!The greek languange belongs to indoeuropean spectrum and its very close with Armenian and Indo-Iranian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Armenian


We need more elite samples from Myceneans i guess!

[Robocop]

So the indoeuropeans in the region were Armenoids from R1b ???
Because Hittites and others there are 100% armenoids

Well no, I've never heard for some serious statements that Hittites were Armenoids, highly doubt that.

Have in mind that Hittites were wiped out by so called "sea people" around 1200 BC, and Hittites were strong Empire, not any less stronger than Egyptian, only Ramses II stopped Sea ppl finally, maybe if he didnt, a lot of negative things would hit europe in the long run as well in future.

[Livin]

So the indoeuropeans in the region were Armenoids from R1b ???
Because Hittites and others there are 100% armenoids

No anatolians are mostly J2 people!Armenoids come from Kura-araxes culture.

The Hittites mixed with Hattians who were probably J2 caucasians.


We dont really know how proto-hittites or proto-anatolians looked like!But probably like all the people from steppe....

[Robocop]

79983

Do you agree with this map?

Totally, furthermore, I have no doubt Dorians belonged to R1a, means Greeks when arrived.

[DarknessWin]

Myceneans had 25-30% steppe ancestry thats for sure!The greek languange belongs to indoeuropean spectrum and its very close with Armenian and Indo-Iranian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Armenian


We need more elite samples from Myceneans i guess!

Myceneans were mostly EV13 and J2 with a little I2.
So they were natives mostly and they dont came from Steppes

Also they were neolithic

[Livin]

Myceneans were mostly EV13 and J2 with a little I2.
So they were natives mostly and they dont came from Steppes

Also they were neolithic

I am talking about proto-greeks not the native folks!

And myceneans were not EV13 they were J2 people who come from mesolithic caucasians.They were CHG.

EV13 is pelasgian haplo.

[DarknessWin]

Totally, furthermore, I have no doubt Dorians belonged to R1a, means Greeks when arrived.

Thracians R1a ??? I take this as a bad joke.
Map is incorrect.

R1a in modern day bulgaria are not from Thracians but from Bulgars ,
Thracians were native Ev13 and I2

[Livin]

Totally, furthermore, I have no doubt Dorians belonged to R1a, means Greeks when arrived.

I think Dorians were R1b rather R1a.I think proto-macedonians and myceneans were R1a and the indoeuropicized the locals EV13,g2a and I2a etc....!


If you see the r1b in Crete,Peloponnesus and some islands has to do mostly with bronze age clades.Some r1b(dorians) founding also in south italy and the region of Pontus.

[Livin]

Thracians R1a ??? I take this as a bad joke.
Map is incorrect.

R1a in modern day bulgaria are not from Thracians but from Bulgars ,
Thracians were native Ev13 and I2

We are talking about the proto-macedonians what you dont understand?As a whole yes macedonians were mostly EV13 people.

[DarknessWin]

No anatolians are mostly J2 people!Armenoids come from Kura-araxes culture.

The Hittites mixed with Hattians who were probably J2 caucasians.


We dont really know how proto-hittites or proto-anatolians looked like!But probably like all the people from steppe....


I see their statues and their art and they were ARMENOIDS.
Not matter if they were R1b, they were not europeans

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0222/6404/products/The-Hittites-Macqueen_large.jpg?v=1367475716

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6-6h-28DHRc/TxHwFVrVqkI/AAAAAAAAayw/nXQIprb0xcE/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/hittite-god-king.jpg

[IncelSlayer]

Anatolians in prehistory belonged mostly to G2a and R1b subclades.

[Livin]

I see their statues and their art and they were ARMENOIDS.
Not matter if they were R1b, they were not europeans

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0222/6404/products/The-Hittites-Macqueen_large.jpg?v=1367475716

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6-6h-28DHRc/TxHwFVrVqkI/AAAAAAAAayw/nXQIprb0xcE/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/hittite-god-king.jpg

Yes because they mixed with neolithics J2 hattians,hurrians etc.

The proto-hittites were probably like all the other steppe people.They were not all of them Armenoids.They had also meds and alpines!

[Robocop]

Myceneans were mostly EV13 and J2 with a little I2.
So they were natives mostly and they dont came from Steppes

Also they were neolithic

No no no my friend, you see, this is why I want to write that thread about genetics of Ancient Greece and Greek arrival to clear this things up. Myceneans were DORIANS with either R1a or R1b haplogroup, totally IndoEuropean ppl, you are talking about ppl who lived in Greece before Greeks arrived in 1750 BC.

Ppl who lived in Greece before Greece we call in Archaeology today Helladic culture, and even though this Helladic is similar to Hellenic, it has nothing to do with each others, honestly.

When Myceneans arrived and met native ppl of what will be Greece, those natives belonged to EV-13, J2 etc...

Later on Myceneans got destroyed by those same Sea people I already mentioned, around 1200 AD, BUT...

SECOND GREEK (DORIAN) wave is coming to Greece around 1100/1000 BC, they're slowly but surely mixing with native population, HELLENIZING them totally, until classical age you have for example Ionians who are in fact hybrid between Dorians and Pre-Dorian/Greek population, while in the same time true Dorians still remained very much alive, known ofcourse as: SPARTANS (just an example), and Macedonians who came later under Phillip II.

Ancient Athenians were not pure Dorians, but more hybrid I was talking about, but never the less GREEK, hope you get the point, they were all GREEKS in that period, I am talking about genesis of creation about Greek population of Ancient Greece.

[-Scar-]

Anatolians in prehistory belonged mostly to G2a and R1b subclades.

And J2a.

[DarknessWin]

I think Dorians were R1b rather R1a.I think proto-macedonians and myceneans were R1a and the indoeuropicized the locals EV13,g2a and I2a etc....!


If you see the r1b in Crete,Peloponnesus and some islands has to do mostly with bronze age clades.Some r1b(dorians) founding also in south italy and the region of Pontus.

Dorians were both R1b,EV13 and I2

[Bornoz]

What happened to Celts in Anatolia btw?
Are they part of our background?

[Robocop]

I think Dorians were R1b rather R1a.I think proto-macedonians and myceneans were R1a and the indoeuropicized the locals EV13,g2a and I2a etc....!


If you see the r1b in Crete,Peloponnesus and some islands has to do mostly with bronze age clades.Some r1b(dorians) founding also in south italy and the region of Pontus.

Yeah I agree, because Im not still sure were they R1b or R1a, either way they were R1 IndoEuropean, that is without any doubt :). But yes, I would go also with R1b, this with R1a stucked in my mind with some older research I've read on college, which are no old, like 10 years has passed since those books. Yeah, R1b more than R1a.

[Livin]

No no no my friend, you see, this is why I want to write that thread about genetics of Ancient Greece and Greek arrival to clear this things up. Myceneans were DORIANS with either R1a or R1b haplogroup, totally IndoEuropean ppl, you are talking about ppl who lived in Greece before Greeks arrived in 1750 BC.

Ppl who lived in Greece before Greece we call in Archaeology today Helladic culture, and even though this Helladic is similar to Hellenic, it has nothing to do with each others, honestly.

When Myceneans arrived and met native ppl of what will be Greece, those natives belonged to EV-13, J2 etc...

Later on Myceneans got destroyed by those same Sea people I already mentioned, around 1200 AD, BUT...

SECOND GREEK (DORIAN) wave is coming to Greece around 1100/1000 BC, they're slowly but surely mixing with native population, HELLENIZING them totally, until classical age you have for example Ionians who are in fact hybrid between Dorians and Pre-Dorian/Greek population, while in the same time true Dorians still remained very much alive, known ofcourse as: SPARTANS (just an example), and Macedonians who came later under Phillip II.

Ancient Athenians were not pure Dorians, but more hybrid I was talking about, but never the less GREEK, hope you get the point, they were all GREEKS in that period, I am talking about genesis of creation about Greek population of Ancient Greece.

You know Greek genetics better than him rofl :thumb001:


Also do not forget that northern greeks and some from western regions do not have the minoan/myceneans admixture!

If you check modern greeks you will realize that only Cretans,Laconians,Maniots and some Central Greeks are more close to what we call Minoans or Myceneans.The big diffrence between Minoans and Myceneans was that Myceneans had this steppe admixture(what we call proto-greeks).And thats how the folks indoeuropicized!

[Livin]

What happened to Celts in Anatolia btw?

They probably assilimated into the Anatolian Greek population(Pontians,Cappadocians etc).

Wiki is not the best source,but i dont think they lie!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia

Read where it says Roman Galatia...

[IncelSlayer]

No no no my friend, you see, this is why I want to write that thread about genetics of Ancient Greece and Greek arrival to clear this things up. Myceneans were DORIANS with either R1a or R1b haplogroup, totally IndoEuropean ppl, you are talking about ppl who lived in Greece before Greeks arrived in 1750 BC.

Ppl who lived in Greece before Greece we call in Archaeology today Helladic culture, and even though this Helladic is similar to Hellenic, it has nothing to do with each others, honestly.

When Myceneans arrived and met native ppl of what will be Greece, those natives belonged to EV-13, J2 etc...

Later on Myceneans got destroyed by those same Sea people I already mentioned, around 1200 AD, BUT...

SECOND GREEK (DORIAN) wave is coming to Greece around 1100/1000 BC, they're slowly but surely mixing with native population, HELLENIZING them totally, until classical age you have for example Ionians who are in fact hybrid between Dorians and Pre-Dorian/Greek population, while in the same time true Dorians still remained very much alive, known ofcourse as: SPARTANS (just an example), and Macedonians who came later under Phillip II.

Ancient Athenians were not pure Dorians, but more hybrid I was talking about, but never the less GREEK, hope you get the point, they were all GREEKS in that period, I am talking about genesis of creation about Greek population of Ancient Greece.

The only mycenean sample we have was J2a.

I0070 Minoan_Lasithi J2a1d
I0073 Minoan_Lasithi J2a1(xJ2a1a, J2a1b1a, J2a1b2, J2a1c, J2a1e, J2a1h, J2a1i)
I9130 Minoan_Odigitria G2a2b2a(xG2a2b2a1b1a2a, G2a2b2a1c1a)
I9041 Mycenaean J2a1(xJ2a1a, J2a1b1, J2a1b2, J2a1c, J2a1e, J2a1g, J2a1h, J2a1i)


Yes because they mixed with neolithics J2 hattians,hurrians etc.

The proto-hittites were probably like all the other steppe people.They were not all of them Armenoids.They had also meds and alpines!

Not true.Hurrians and hattians were most likely R1b-L23,J1-M26 and G2a-P15 .


And J2a.

No, j2a is almost entirely absent from ancient anatolia and it has almost no diversity there.

[-Scar-]

The only mycenean sample we have was J2a.

I0070 Minoan_Lasithi J2a1d
I0073 Minoan_Lasithi J2a1(xJ2a1a, J2a1b1a, J2a1b2, J2a1c, J2a1e, J2a1h, J2a1i)
I9130 Minoan_Odigitria G2a2b2a(xG2a2b2a1b1a2a, G2a2b2a1c1a)
I9041 Mycenaean J2a1(xJ2a1a, J2a1b1, J2a1b2, J2a1c, J2a1e, J2a1g, J2a1h, J2a1i)



Not true.Hurrians and hattians were most likely R1b-L23,J1-M26 and G2a-P15 .



No, j2a is almost entirely absent from ancient anatolia and it has almost no diversity there.

Mycenaeans came from Anatolia.

[Robocop]

What happened to Celts in Anatolia btw?

They got destroyed by Greeks, finally, because they were like plague troughout Europe back then with their wars etc, when I say plague I mean this without any offence, just wanna describe what were they doing.

Finally they met someone who stopped their advance, they got totally crushed in Anatolia by Greeks.

Celts invaded also Greece, on 280 BC, a group of Celts moved from Pannonia to Greece, they fought against the local Balkan populations, on 281 BC, the Thracian kingdom collapsed due to the Celts, after Illyrians and Paeonians fought against the Celts too and lost the battle, Celts finally moved to Greece and Macedonia where, after some bloddy battles and campaigns as the Battle of Thermopylae on 279 BC, were defeated, and so, they moved to northeast where Celts divided in two groups, one returned to Pannonia, the other continued to migrate, arrived in Anatolia (Turkey), where they were called “Galatians”.

This all happened during Hellenistic period, means period which Alexander started, Hellenic period which came after Hellenic-Classical period.

[Livin]

The only mycenean sample we have was J2a.

I0070 Minoan_Lasithi J2a1d
I0073 Minoan_Lasithi J2a1(xJ2a1a, J2a1b1a, J2a1b2, J2a1c, J2a1e, J2a1h, J2a1i)
I9130 Minoan_Odigitria G2a2b2a(xG2a2b2a1b1a2a, G2a2b2a1c1a)
I9041 Mycenaean J2a1(xJ2a1a, J2a1b1, J2a1b2, J2a1c, J2a1e, J2a1g, J2a1h, J2a1i)



Not true.Hurrians and hattians were most likely R1b-L23,J1-M26 and G2a-P15 .



No, j2a is almost entirely absent from ancient anatolia and it has almost no diversity there.

Thats why i am saying we need more samples from Mycenenan Greece and more specific elite sampels!Because Proto-Greeks were the fucking bosses who forced the aristocratic elite upon the folks.

No you are wrong about Hurrians Hattians.These tribes were come from Kura-Araxes and they were J2a people.G2a has to do with neolithic anatolians!

J2a=Bronze age Kura-Araxes.
R1b-L23=Ancient anatolians(Hittie,Luwvian,Pala etc).

[DarknessWin]

No no no my friend, you see, this is why I want to write that thread about genetics of Ancient Greece and Greek arrival to clear this things up. Myceneans were DORIANS with either R1a or R1b haplogroup, totally IndoEuropean ppl, you are talking about ppl who lived in Greece before Greeks arrived in 1750 BC.

Ppl who lived in Greece before Greece we call in Archaeology today Helladic culture, and even though this Helladic is similar to Hellenic, it has nothing to do with each others, honestly.

When Myceneans arrived and met native ppl of what will be Greece, those natives belonged to EV-13, J2 etc...

Later on Myceneans got destroyed by those same Sea people I already mentioned, around 1200 AD, BUT...

SECOND GREEK (DORIAN) wave is coming to Greece around 1100/1000 BC, they're slowly but surely mixing with native population, HELLENIZING them totally, until classical age you have for example Ionians who are in fact hybrid between Dorians and Pre-Dorian/Greek population, while in the same time true Dorians still remained very much alive, known ofcourse as: SPARTANS (just an example), and Macedonians who came later under Phillip II.

Ancient Athenians were not pure Dorians, but more hybrid I was talking about, but never the less GREEK, hope you get the point, they were all GREEKS in that period, I am talking about genesis of creation about Greek population of Ancient Greece.

HELLENIZING my dick maybe?? Did you know that pre-Dorian people of Greece used greek alphabet and greek language??
Ancient Athenians were 100% Ioanian tribe and 0% Dorian

Why the fuck they spoken Greek then???
Dorians , Ionians and Aeolians spoken the same language with different accent

They were the same people, you cant say that Dorians were Indoeuropeans and other were not.
You try to fill up your complex and your fake history about "indopeuropeans" with theories like this

You play with stupid haplogroups and indoeuropean fake history , the Hittites Armenoids were R1b but 0% European.
Deal with it

The real indoeuropeans were only R1a people and a mix of asians and indians. This is the truth you hidding for

[IncelSlayer]

Mycenaeans came from Anatolia.

Fuck no, they were locals, dumb ass albo.


Thats why i am saying we need more samples from Mycenenan Greece and more specific elite sampels!Because Proto-Greeks were the fucking bosses who forced the aristocratic elite upon the folks.

No you are wrong about Hurrians Hattians.These tribes were come from Kura-Araxes and they were J2a people.G2a has to do with neolithic anatolians!

J2a=Bronze age Kura-Araxes.
R1b-L23=Ancient anatolians(Hittie,Luwvian,Pala etc).

kura axes wasnt j2a, stop reading eupedia shit.Btw j2a in caucasus has 0 diversity, its just 1 clade that came around 3-4k years ago from east med region.


The expansion of Y-DNA subclade R-Z93 (R1a1a1b2), according to Mascarenhas et al. (2015), is compatible with "the archeological records of eastward expansion of West Asian populations in the 4th millennium BCE, culminating in the socalled Kura-Araxes migrations in the post-Uruk IV period."[38] According to Pamjav et al. (2012), "Inner and Central Asia is an overlap zone" for the R -Z280 and R -Z93 lineages, implying that an "early differentiation zone" of R-M198 "conceivably occurred somewhere within the Eurasian Steppes or the Middle East and Caucasus region as they lie between South Asia and Eastern Europe". [39] According to Underhill et al. (2014/2015), R1a1a1, the most frequent subclade of R1a, split into R-Z282 (Europe) and R-Z93 (Asia) at circa 5,800 before present,[40] in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey. According to Underhill et al. (2014/2015), "[t]his suggests the possibility that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages."[41]

[Robocop]

What happened to Celts in Anatolia btw?
Are they part of our background?

Also I forgot to tell you that Greeks even made this sculpture how they defeated Celts in Battle of Thermopyle 279 BC

http://www.realmofhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Other_Battle_Of_Thermopylae_Roman_Greeks_vs_Goths_ 1.jpg

P.S. Maybe you have some of their legacy, yes.

[Livin]

Fuck no, they were locals, dumb ass albo.



kura axes wasnt j2a, stop reading eupedia shit

Dude go to troll somwhere else!

And i am not reading only eupedia.

Kura-araxes was the explosion for J2a people!And you clearly belong to this culture.


Myceneans idiot were not locals they come from anatolia/caucasus.


Pelasgians(EV13) were locals who come from Africa thousands of years ago.....

[DarknessWin]

Yes because they mixed with neolithics J2 hattians,hurrians etc.

The proto-hittites were probably like all the other steppe people.They were not all of them Armenoids.They had also meds and alpines!


That's why you must stop take haplogroups so serious for dna study.
They mean nothing

Maybe Hittites were R1b , they were not Europeans no matter what.
They were pure anatolian population and had nothing to do with "indoeuropeans"

[-Scar-]

Fuck no, they were locals, dumb ass albo.



kura axes wasnt j2a, stop reading eupedia shit

The Minoans and Mycenaeans descended mainly from early Neolithic farmers, likely migrating thousands of years prior to the Bronze Age from Anatolia, in what is today modern Turkey.

http://www.sci-news.com/genetics/minoans-mycenaeans-anatolian-migrants-05100.html

[Livin]

Also I forgot to tell you that Greeks even made this sculpture how they defeated Celts in Battle of Thermopyle 279 BC

http://www.realmofhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Other_Battle_Of_Thermopylae_Roman_Greeks_vs_Goths_ 1.jpg

P.S. Maybe you have some of their legacy, yes.

This greek darnkesswin is a distant cousin of you....how do you feel?Look his haplo hehe :cool:

[IncelSlayer]

Dude go to troll somwhere else!

And i am not reading only eupedia.

Kura-araxes was the explosion for J2a people!And you clearly belong to this culture.


Myceneans idiot were not locals they come from anatolia/caucasus.


Pelasgians(EV13) were locals who come from Africa thousands of years ago.....

There is no proof that J2a has anything to do with Kura axes,meanwhile we have archaeological proof that R-Z93 was the main ydna.


The Minoans and Mycenaeans descended mainly from early Neolithic farmers, likely migrating thousands of years prior to the Bronze Age from Anatolia, in what is today modern Turkey.

http://www.sci-news.com/genetics/minoans-mycenaeans-anatolian-migrants-05100.html

J2a people were not neolithic farmers, neolithic farmers were almost entirely G2a and rest was T and some E.

[Robocop]

HELLENIZING my dick maybe?? Did you know that pre-Dorian people of Greece used greek alphabet and greek language??
Ancient Athenians were 100% Ioanian tribe and 0% Dorian

Why the fuck they spoken Greek then???
Dorians , Ionians and Aeolians spoken the same language with different accent

They were the same people, you cant say that Dorians were Indoeuropeans and other were not.
You try to fill up your complex and your fake history about "indopeuropeans" with theories like this

You play with stupid haplogroups and indoeuropean fake history , the Hittites Armenoids were R1b but 0% European.
Deal with it

The real indoeuropeans were only R1a people and a mix of asians and indians. This is the truth you hidding for

JESUS CHRIST have you read what I wrote???

I was talking about population before IONIANS (before Ionians were even formed as such), DORIANS and 2 other greek ethnics when formed after 1750 BC.

There ARE NO GREEKS IN GREECE before 1750 BC, you can check this on any university of Archaeology in Athens or entire Greece if you want, I think you totally misunderstood me cause you felt that I am attacking Greek identity, JESUS. Far from it. Read it again.



I was writing how Greek identity was formed after first arrival of Greeks and how it grew in relation with people they found on area of Greece.

[Livin]

That's why you must stop take haplogroups so serious for dna study.
They mean nothing

Maybe Hittites were R1b , they were not Europeans no matter what.
They were pure anatolian population and had nothing to do with "indoeuropeans"

Hittites were a small indoeuropean group who absorded the local anatolians(Hattians and Hurrians) J2a people.They probably created what we call Armenoid.

Armenoid is a mixed phenotype.....!

[Robocop]

This greek darnkesswin is a distant cousin of you....how do you feel?Look his haplo hehe :cool:

Well it seems our I2 Paleolithic HG proves that we I2 ppl always agree to disagree amongst each others. lol

[DarknessWin]

Dude go to troll somwhere else!

And i am not reading only eupedia.

Kura-araxes was the explosion for J2a people!And you clearly belong to this culture.


Myceneans idiot were not locals they come from anatolia/caucasus.


Pelasgians(EV13) were locals who come from Africa thousands of years ago.....


You spread bullshits once more.
First of all Macedonians were EV13 and also Dorians, maybe they came from Africa too??

Alexander's empire contributed the E-V13 haplo as they conquered eastward

Oooops it speak about the Dorian Macedonian greek kingdom. No R1b but Ev13

[IncelSlayer]

Hittites were a small indoeuropean group who absorded the local anatolians(Hattians and Hurrians) J2a people.They probably created what we call Armenoid.

Armenoid is a mixed phenotype.....!

Stop talking proofless bullshit, you're annoying as fuck.

[Livin]

There is no proof that J2a has anything to do with Kura axes,meanwhile we have archaeological proof that R-Z93 was the main ydna.



J2a people were not neolithic farmers, neolithic farmers were almost entirely G2a and rest was T and some E.

What you dont understand you moron?

The modern Turks,Caucasians and other west asian groups have mostly J2a as their main haplogroup.It comes from Kura-Araxes with the bronze age expansion.If you have complex with this i dont give a fuck.Stop trolling the thread and gtfo.

Neolithic farmers are a minority everywhere because they get a geonocide from indoeuropeans.Only in Georgia there are high rates of this haplo.Even in anatolia among Turks it is very rare.

R1b-L23 indoeuropicized the folks everywhere.....From Greece to Anatolia and even in Armenia.Quit trolling!!!!!!!!!

[-Scar-]

There is no proof that J2a has anything to do with Kura axes,meanwhile we have archaeological proof that R-Z93 was the main ydna.



J2a people were not neolithic farmers, neolithic farmers were almost entirely G2a and rest was T and some E.

We only have some few samples, those are not representative for the entire population.

[Kelmendasi]

Fuck no, they were locals, dumb ass albo.



kura axes wasnt j2a, stop reading eupedia shit.Btw j2a in caucasus has 0 diversity, its just 1 clade that came around 3-4k years ago from east med region.
Yh J2a isn't that diverse in the Caucasus but it was found in a Eneolithic sample from the Caucasus and like 3 samples from the Maykop. It most probably moved into the region from places like eastern Anatolia or something.

[Livin]

You spread bullshits once more.
First of all Macedonians were EV13 and also Dorians, maybe they came from Africa too??

Alexander's empire contributed the E-V13 haplo as they conquered eastward

Oooops it speak about the Dorian Macedonian greek kingdom. No R1b but Ev13

Macedonians were talking an indoeuropean languange....!Put your mind to think....for one time!And for the last time i am talking about proto-macedonians.

[DarknessWin]

JESUS CHRIST have you read what I wrote???

I was talking about population before IONIANS (before Ionians were even formed as such), DORIANS and 2 other greek ethnics when formed after 1750 BC.

There ARE NO GREEKS IN GREECE before 1750 BC, you can check this on any university of Archaeology in Athens or entire Greece if you want, I think you totally misunderstood me cause you felt that I am attacking Greek identity, JESUS. Far from it. Read it again.



I was writing how Greek identity was formed after first arrival of Greeks and how it grew in relation with people they found on area of Greece.


Yes you attack it , its like you say that 20% EV13 Greeks today are not greeks but slaves and gypsies.
You want me maybe to sent you photos of modern Greeks from that Haplo???
You can see Pontids , DinaroPontids and even Nordids among them

Alexander was also probably EV13 as his army spread this haplo in the east.
You people pissed me off with this haplo and indoeuropean crap fake history

[Livin]

Yh J2a isn't that diverse in the Caucasus but it was found in a Eneolithic sample from the Caucasus and like 3 samples from the Maykop. It most probably moved into the region from places like eastern Anatolia or something.

There are some J2a and J2b indoeuropean clades if i am not mistaken...

[IncelSlayer]

What you dont understand you moron?

The modern Turks,Caucasians and other west asian groups have mostly J2a as their main haplogroup.It comes from Kura-Araxes with the bronze age expansion.If you have complex with this i dont give a fuck.Stop trolling the thread and gtfo.

Neolithic farmers are a minority everywhere because they get a geonocide from indoeuropeans.Only in Georgia there are high rates of this haplo.Even in anatolia among Turks it is very rare.

R1b-L23 indoeuropicized the folks everywhere.....From Greece to Anatolia and even in Armenia.Quit trolling!!!!!!!!!

AHAHHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAH
J2a samples in ancient anatolia are almost entirely absent and today anatolians and caucasian people have close to no diversity in J2a.
Highest J2a diversity and oldest clades => Greece and Iran.Even Italy has more diversity and older clades.
Kura-axes R1b-z93, proven by archaeology.
Neolithic farmers were almost entirely G2a, rest was E and some T,look at the ancient neolithic samples from neolithic culture you 0 IQ imbecile.

[Kelmendasi]

There is no proof that J2a has anything to do with Kura axes,meanwhile we have archaeological proof that R-Z93 was the main ydna.



J2a people were not neolithic farmers, neolithic farmers were almost entirely G2a and rest was T and some E.
There hasn't been a single Kura-Araxes sample that turned out to be Z93 so far, from the samples that were tested G2b and J1 were found, but to be fair there is a small amount of samples. J2a was present among Neolithic farmers, it has been found in Neolithic European sites as well as one sample from Anatolia. But it's true that J2 wasn't a major Neolithic lineage, G2 dominated by far.

[Livin]

AHAHHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAH
J2a samples in ancient anatolia are almost entirely absent and today anatolians and caucasian people have close to no diversity in J2a.
Highest J2a diversity and oldest clades => Greece and Iran.Even Italy has more diversity and older clades.
Kura-axes R1b-z93, proven by archaeology.
Neolithic farmers were almost entirely G2a, rest was E and some T,look at the ancient neolithic samples from neolithic culture you 0 IQ imbecile.

Get lost troll!You are a kura-araxes remain and you have a big complex.Say hi to your caucasian and west asian brothers you wanna be Roman etruskan hahahaha

[DarknessWin]

Macedonians were talking an indoeuropean languange....!Put your mind to think....for one time!And for the last time i am talking about proto-macedonians.

There not exist ProtoMacedonian , you would make me pissed as hell if your continue this crap especially because you are greek and dont know the history.
Macedonians are Argians, they came from Pelloponese and they are close related to Spartans

What Protomacedonian crap mean???

[Kelmendasi]

There are some J2a and J2b indoeuropean clades if i am not mistaken...
There is a theory which links J2b2-L283 to the Indo-Europeans but that still needs more evidence to be proven

[IncelSlayer]

There hasn't been a single Kura-Araxes sample that turned out to be Z93 so far, from the samples that were tested G2b and J1 were found, but to be fair there is a small amount of samples. J2a was present among Neolithic farmers, it has been found in Neolithic European sites as well as one sample from Anatolia. But it's true that J2 wasn't a major Neolithic lineage, G2 dominated by far.

Yeah, but kura-axes culture were found to be the most similar to those of R1b-z93 people, from an archaeologically pov.

Yeah, right 2 out of 100.Good joke.


Mathieson et al. (2015) tested the Y-DNA of 13 Early Neolithic farmers from the Barcın site (6500-6200 BCE) in north-western Anatolia, and only one of them belonged to haplogroup J2a. Lazaridis et al. (2016) tested 44 ancient Near Eastern samples, including Neolithic farmers from Jordan and western Iran, but only the above-mentioned sample from Mesolithic Iran belonged to J2. Likewise, over 100 Y-DNA samples have been tested from Neolithic Europe, covering most of the important cultures, and only two J2 sample was found, in the Sopot and Proto-Lengyel cultures in Hungary, dating from 7,000 years ago.

[Livin]

There is a theory which links J2b2-L283 to the Indo-Europeans but that still needs more evidence to be proven

Yes i know!And if i remember well some J2b clades among Albanians are indoeuropicized aswell.Did ancient illyrians had J2b lineages?

[DarknessWin]

What you dont understand you moron?

The modern Turks,Caucasians and other west asian groups have mostly J2a as their main haplogroup.It comes from Kura-Araxes with the bronze age expansion.If you have complex with this i dont give a fuck.Stop trolling the thread and gtfo.

Neolithic farmers are a minority everywhere because they get a geonocide from indoeuropeans.Only in Georgia there are high rates of this haplo.Even in anatolia among Turks it is very rare.

R1b-L23 indoeuropicized the folks everywhere.....From Greece to Anatolia and even in Armenia.Quit trolling!!!!!!!!!

Wrong, J2 came from Sea People and it is also Indoeuropean.

That's why i start believe that all this indoeuropean staff is bullcrap

[IncelSlayer]

Get lost troll!You are a kura-araxes remain and you have a big complex.Say hi to your caucasian and west asian brothers you wanna be Roman etruskan hahahaha

Good joke.No proof kura-axes was related to J2a, dumb ass hellenized turk.
On ftdna almost all my ydna relatives are italians, no west asians.

[Kelmendasi]

I think Thracians (when formed as ethnic) were a fusion of Proto-Indo-European Steppe people with the Neolithic inhabitants of the Carpathians (Cucuteni-Trypillian culture). As such they probably belonged to R1a (about 30%) and even I2a1b around 30%.
I doubt that Thracians carried I2a1b and R1a in large amounts. E-V13 seems to be pretty diverse in Bulgaria so I would believe that it may have been a major haplogroup among them also to me it seems like R1b-Z2103 was responsible for the spread of Paleo-Balkan languages in the Balkans, Iirc a Thracian sample was predicted as R1b-Z2103 but it had a very low number of SNPs so nothing could be confirmed. There is no evidence that the Cucuteni-Trypillian had large numbers of I2a1b. The Thracians may have carried a branch of I2a1b-L161.1 but not CTS10228 like modern day South Slavs.

[Livin]

Good joke.No proof kura-axes was related to J2a, dumb ass hellenized turk.
On ftdna almost all my ydna relatives are italians, no west asians.

Your first daddy was a turk like me hahahaha cry kura-araxes remain!

[Kelmendasi]

Yeah, but kura-axes culture were found to be the most similar to those of R1b-z93 people, from an archaeologically pov.

Yeah, right 2 out of 100.Good joke.
We need more samples in order to actually talk conclusively. 2/100 is still better than 0/100

[DarknessWin]

There is a theory which links J2b2-L283 to the Indo-Europeans but that still needs more evidence to be proven

Dont forget that elite of "indoeuropeans" were EV13 people .
Too bad for them that this aryan theory collapse

Here is the real Indoeuropeans from R1a haplo :

https://www.biospectrumindia.com/uploads/articles/northeast_india-9716.jpg

[DarknessWin]

I doubt that Thracians carried I2a1b and R1a in large amounts. E-V13 seems to be pretty diverse in Bulgaria so I would believe that it may have been a major haplogroup among them also to me it seems like R1b-Z2103 was responsible for the spread of Paleo-Balkan languages in the Balkans, Iirc a Thracian sample was predicted as R1b-Z2103 but it had a very low number of SNPs so nothing could be confirmed. There is no evidence that the Cucuteni-Trypillian had large numbers of I2a1b. The Thracians may have carried a branch of I2a1b-L161.1 but not CTS10228 like modern day South Slavs.

True , thracians were I2 and EV13

[Kelmendasi]

Yes i know!And if i remember well some J2b clades among Albanians are indoeuropicized aswell.Did ancient illyrians had J2b lineages?
Well all the clades among Albanians were assimilated by the Indo-Europeans as Albanians are an IE group. There was a Bronze Age sample from Dalmatia which was J2b2-L283

[Kelmendasi]

True , thracians were I2 and EV13
I think they were E-V13, R1b and maybe J2a. I don't think they carried I2 in large amounts, and if so it most probably was I2a2, I2c or some rare branch of I2a1b

[Livin]

Well all the clades among Albanians were assimilated by the Indo-Europeans as Albanians are an IE group. There was a Bronze Age sample from Dalmatia which was J2b2-L283

Yep i know!So albanians are a mix of EV13 neolithic,J2b witch probably come caucasus and they R1b witch has to do with proto-illyrians or thracians anyway.

The I2 dinaric is slavic like the northern greece?

[Teucer]

So the Neolithic farmers from South-Western Anatolia that comprised the bulk of Mycenaean and Minoan ancestry were not J2? I always thought they were. Were they predominantly G then?

If so, where did the J2 in ancient and modern Greeks come from?

[Kelmendasi]

Yep i know!So albanians are a mix of EV13 neolithic,J2b witch probably come caucasus and they R1b witch has to do with proto-illyrians or thracians anyway.

The I2 dinaric is slavic like the northern greece?
The I2a1b-Din in Albanians is Slavic in origin

[Livin]

So the Neolithic farmers from South-Western Anatolia that comprised the bulk of Mycenaean and Minoan ancestry were not J2? I always thought they were. Were they predominantly G then?

If so, where did the J2 in ancient and modern Greeks come from?

Do not take serious this vlach shepherd dude!Yes Myceneans and Minoans were the same people pretty much and they had J2 lineages mostly.

[Livin]

The I2a1b-Din in Albanians is Slavic in origin

And what about your haplo?I dont want to be rude but how it comes to albania?Did you found out?

Cheers.:D

[IncelSlayer]

So the Neolithic farmers from South-Western Anatolia that comprised the bulk of Mycenaean and Minoan ancestry were not J2? I always thought they were. Were they predominantly G then?

If so, where did the J2 in ancient and modern Greeks come from?

neolithic was 8k BC, mycenean culture like 2.5k...France&Germany&Sweden will be mostly SSA in just 100 years for example...

[Kelmendasi]

And what about your haplo?I dont want to be rude but how it comes to albania?Did you found out?

Cheers.:D
We don't know, it most probably came around the Roman era or something. I don't match anybody on Y37 so it's sorta weird. It's most definitely from the Levant area though originally but when it moved into the Balkans isn't known although it certainly was after the Bronze Age, my TMRCA with a member who is supposedly from my clade that is Italian was like 3,000ybp.

[Teucer]

neolithic was 8k BC, mycenean culture like 2.5k...France&Germany&Sweden will be mostly SSA in just 100 years for example...

Okay, so what haplo were the Anatolian farmers that made up the bulk of Mycenaeans and Minoans if not J2a?

[IncelSlayer]

Okay, so what haplo were the Anatolian farmers that made up the bulk of Mycenaeans and Minoans if not J2a?

mycenean and minoan genetic composition does not correlate with their ydna, what you don't understand?They simply fucked neolithic females, like everyone from S-E europe.According to you R1a indians&pakistans are blonde blue eyed russians, r1b congolese are western keltids...

[Livin]

We don't know, it most probably came around the Roman era or something. I don't match anybody on Y37 so it's sorta weird. It's most definitely from the Levant area though originally but when it moved into the Balkans isn't known although it certainly was after the Bronze Age, my TMRCA with a member who is supposedly from my clade that is Italian was like 3,000ybp.

Cool!This is mystery ;)

For some reason i like this haplo.

Jesus Christ father Joseph could have been J1 xd :)

[Kelmendasi]

Cool!This is mystery ;)

For some reason i like this haplo.

Jesus Christ father Joseph could have been J1 xd :)
Yh it's kinda mysterious, we need to test more Albanians and see if there is a match because so far I have no real matches.

[Livin]

Yh it's kinda mysterious, we need to test more Albanians and see if there is a match because so far I have no real matches.

What is the main haplo among Gheghs?

[Kelmendasi]

What is the main haplo among Gheghs?
E-V13 seems to be the main one although J2b2 is close, E-V13 is around 30% whilst J2b2 is around 29%

[Livin]

mycenean and minoan genetic composition does not correlate with their ydna, what you don't understand?They simply fucked neolithic females, like everyone from S-E europe.According to you R1a indians&pakistans are blonde blue eyed russians, r1b congolese are western keltids...

You stupid clown you dont even understand his question.He asked you about the first waves of minoans and mycenenas who arrived in Greece not what happened after.We know that they fucked neolithics and native populations.The same thing Romans did to your grand-grand-grand mother....!!!!

[IncelSlayer]

You stupid clown you dont even understand his question.He asked you about the first waves of minoans and mycenenas who arrived in Greece not what happened after.We know that they fucked neolithics and native populations.The same thing Romans did to your grand-grand-grand mother....!!!!

I said 5 times ITT that the anatolian farmers who make the bulk of neolithic ancestry, not only of ancient greeks, but all of europeans, were mostly G2a, rest was E1b and some T.

[Livin]

E-V13 seems to be the main one although J2b2 is close, E-V13 is around 30% whilst J2b2 is around 29%

Do you think our albanians(Arvanites) increased the lineages of EV13-and some R1b etc haplos?

[Livin]

I said 5 times ITT that the anatolian farmers who make the bulk of neolithic ancestry, not only of ancient greeks, but all of europeans, were mostly G2a, rest was E1b and some T.

Dude,you are sick!G2a in Greece was native haplo along with EV13 and I2.

J2a come from anatolia/Caucasus to Greece.Why you are such a cuck?

[Kelmendasi]

Do you think our albanians(Arvanites) increased the lineages of EV13-and some R1b etc haplos?
I think it's hard to determine whether they increased the amount of E-V13 as Greeks also have a large amount of E-V13 but through testing we have seen that some of the clades may have come with Arvanites or that Arvanites increased it's frequency. I think that they increased the amounts of R1b-BY611 and J2b2-L283(PH1751, Y23094) as they are more clearly linked to Albanians

[Livin]

I think it's hard to determine whether they increased the amount of E-V13 as Greeks also have a large amount of E-V13 but through testing we have seen that some of the clades may have come with Arvanites or that Arvanites increased it's frequency. I think that they increased the amounts of R1b-BY611 and J2b2-L283(PH1751, Y23094) as they are more clearly linked to Albanians

Indeed!I am not sure but some J2b lineages hitting very hard in epirus and if i remember well,It has to do probably with Souliotes right?This albanian tribe...what you think?

I was wondering about some J2b linages and i agree with you it must be coming from Arvanites,Souliotes or Tsams.You know we have some Chams here....!!!

[DarknessWin]

Do you think our albanians(Arvanites) increased the lineages of EV13-and some R1b etc haplos?

I have some arvanite friends, please come and tell them that they are albanians.
First of all i see no Dinarids among them and most of them look exactly what they are VLACHS

Yes they came from albania and they also knew albanian and greek language but they were vlachs,
arvanitovlachs and their dna score Thessaly - Greece

They are Greeks, why you try all this propaganda???

[Kelmendasi]

I have some arvanite friends, please come and tell them that they are albanians.
First of all i see no Dinarids among them and most of them look exactly what they are VLACHS

Yes they came from albania and they also knew albanian and greek language but they were vlachs,
arvanitovlachs and their dna score Thessaly - Greece

They are Greeks, why you try all this propaganda???
Come on man, it's clear that they were Albanians. Yes some Vlachs did migrate with them but this didn't happen in all of their migrations. They are the same as the Arbereshe it's just that they migrated to Greece.

[Livin]

I have some arvanite friends, please come and tell them that they are albanians.
First of all i see no Dinarids among them and most of them look exactly what they are VLACHS

Yes they came from albania and they also knew albanian and greek language but they were vlachs,
arvanitovlachs and their dna score Thessaly - Greece

They are Greeks, why you try all this propaganda???

Stfu idiot!You was the one who called them traitors along with the other diaspora clown Cybernatutic.You said arvanites were albanians who fought for Turks during 1821 revolution.

[Livin]

Come on man, it's clear that they were Albanians. Yes some Vlachs did migrate with them but this didn't happen in all of their migrations. They are the same as the Arbereshe it's just that they migrated to Greece.

Dont give attention to this slavic troll!

He was the one who called them as traitors and that they fighting for Turks....!

[DarknessWin]

Come on man, it's clear that they were Albanians. Yes some Vlachs did migrate with them but this didn't happen in all of their migrations. They are the same as the Arbereshe it's just that they migrated to Greece.

Ok this is your opinion but if you see their phenotypes are actually opposite than Albanians.
You know albania that time were a region of many different ethnicities.

Arvanites were Vlach population from Greece, moved in Arvanon (arvanites) and then again
moved back to Greece as they were shepherds and moved in all balkans

[DarknessWin]

Stfu idiot!You was the one who called them traitors along with the other diaspora clown Cybernatutic.You said arvanites were albanians who fought for Turks during 1821 revolution.

You fucking clown read what i write, i speak about Arvanitovlach greeks and not Arvanites (muslims).
Its not the same

Arvanites were muslims and followers of turks (called turkalbanians in history) , arvanitovlachs on the other hand were greeks
and today part of greece

You know nothing about history and you are the bigger clown here.
Fuck your family bitch dont make me come and fuck you

Come here and tell me slavic , I2 is not slavic you Armenian shit.
R1b is Armenian

[Kelmendasi]

Ok this is your opinion but if you see their phenotypes are actually opposite than Albanians.
You know albania that time were a region of many different ethnicities.

Arvanites were Vlach population from Greece, moved in Arvanon (arvanites) and then again
moved back to Greece as they were shepherds and moved in all balkans
Yh sure it's my opinion, but this opinion is also shared by the majority of people who have studied these types of things. Tosks were apparently different to Ghegs in pehnotype but does this make them non-Albanian? Albania wasn't really multi-ethnic, the only area which was occupied by a large number of people that weren't Albanian was southernmost Albania. Arvanites clearly originate from Albania and were/are of Albanian origin, they use the ethnonym as the Arbereshe of Italy and speak a similar dialect. The Arvanites weren't said to have come to Greece as Sheperds but perhaps some did. Also the people that have tested that are Arvanites or of Arvanite ancestry in our project have turned out to belong to Albanian Ydna haplogroups. People on this forum really do like using the word Vlach....

[Livin]

You fucking clown read what i write, i speak about Arvanitovlach greeks and not Arvanites (muslims).
Its not the same

Arvanites were muslims and followers of turks (called turkalbanians in history) , arvanitovlachs on the other hand were greeks
and today part of greece

You know nothing about history and you are the bigger clown here.
Fuck your family bitch dont make me come and fuck you

Come here and tell me slavic , I2 is not slavic you Armenian shit.
R1b is Armenian

You are slavic and you know it!

I2 is slavic haplo duel with it.It is not my fault....!You have to get used to....!

Everybody here knows very well that Northern Greece and your hometown Florina are heavily slavic.

Θες να εθρω?Με 100 ασβερκους θα σου ερθω και θα σου κανω την πολη καινουργια....να δεις μετα πως γαμανε τα καυκαλια.....!

[Livin]

Yh sure it's my opinion, but this opinion is also shared by the majority of people who have studied these types of things. Tosks were apparently different to Ghegs in pehnotype but does this make them non-Albanian? Albania wasn't really multi-ethnic, the only area which was occupied by a large number of people that weren't Albanian was southernmost Albania. Arvanites clearly originate from Albania and were/are of Albanian origin, they use the ethnonym as the Arbereshe of Italy and speak a similar dialect. The Arvanites weren't said to have come to Greece as Sheperds but perhaps some did. Also the people that have tested that are Arvanites or of Arvanite ancestry in our project have turned out to belong to Albanian Ydna haplogroups. People on this forum really do like using the word Vlach....

Dont hear this funny clown with his slavic roots!

Arvanites were the best mercenaries and they were serving the byzantine emperors!This retard confuses vlachs with arvanites rofl.......!!!

Arvanites were the best warriors during byzantine empire and they were also the major ethnic group during Greek revolution of 1821.And many of them still have dinaric features and brachy skull shapes....!!!

[Dragoon]

Go back 1000 or 4000 or 10,000 years and many groups would have been a collection of haplogroups.

Youd have to get into deeper subclades and when you list hundred of them it gets complicated to find details.

[Wrong]

I think Dorians were R1b rather R1a.I think proto-macedonians and myceneans were R1a and the indoeuropicized the locals EV13,g2a and I2a etc....!


If you see the r1b in Crete,Peloponnesus and some islands has to do mostly with bronze age clades.Some r1b(dorians) founding also in south italy and the region of Pontus.
The only ancient R1a sample found in the Balkans is R1a-Z93, which is very low in modern Balkan populations.

Quite a big deal of the R1a there was brought from Slavs.

If Dorian invasion was a fact, they were most likely R1b, with minorities of others.

Anyway the theories going in this thread are outdated as fuck, speculating on haplogroups, shooting in the dark.

[Livin]

The only ancient R1a sample found in the Balkans is R1a-Z93, which is very low in modern Balkan populations.

Quite a big deal of the R1a there was brought from Slavs.

If Dorian invasion was a fact, they were most likely R1b, with minorities of others.

Indeed dude!What i am saying is that Dorians were mostly of R1b.Just see where this haplo hits in Greece.Crete,some parts of peloponnesus were Dorians settled and some islands.Some clades like R1b-277 founding also in South Italy and Pontus region.It has to do probably with dorian settlement.

I don't think Proto-Greeks were the same tribe with Dorians thats why i said they were probably r1a people.I think these r1a lineages assimilated into the neolithic populations EV13 etc.


Where you have lost btw....

[Wrong]

Indeed dude!What i am saying is that Dorians were mostly of R1b.Just see where this haplo hits in Greece.Crete,some parts of peloponnesus were Dorians settled and some islands.Some clades like R1b-277 founding also in South Italy and Pontus region.It has to do probably with dorian settlement.

I don't think Proto-Greeks were the same tribe with Dorians thats why i said they were probably r1a people.I think these r1a lineages assimilated into the neolithic populations EV13 etc.


Where you have lost btw....
Attended church masses.

[DarknessWin]

Yh sure it's my opinion, but this opinion is also shared by the majority of people who have studied these types of things. Tosks were apparently different to Ghegs in pehnotype but does this make them non-Albanian? Albania wasn't really multi-ethnic, the only area which was occupied by a large number of people that weren't Albanian was southernmost Albania. Arvanites clearly originate from Albania and were/are of Albanian origin, they use the ethnonym as the Arbereshe of Italy and speak a similar dialect. The Arvanites weren't said to have come to Greece as Sheperds but perhaps some did. Also the people that have tested that are Arvanites or of Arvanite ancestry in our project have turned out to belong to Albanian Ydna haplogroups. People on this forum really do like using the word Vlach....

Of course Albanians were just a geographical term like European , it dont mean than Europeans are the same.
Tosks are actually Meds and close to Greeks while Ghegs are close to Balkanians

[DarknessWin]

You are slavic and you know it!

I2 is slavic haplo duel with it.It is not my fault....!You have to get used to....!

Everybody here knows very well that Northern Greece and your hometown Florina are heavily slavic.

Θες να εθρω?Με 100 ασβερκους θα σου ερθω και θα σου κανω την πολη καινουργια....να δεις μετα πως γαμανε τα καυκαλια.....!


Slavic is only R1a-M458 you moron , I2 is the most ancient haplo in Balkans and have connection to Thracians,Illyrians and ancient Greeks

To see people speaking slavic dont make them slavs , you also speak Greek but you are armenian .....

My phenotype is 100% Med Pontid so i cant be Slavic , Slavs were Gorid and Baltid mostly

Με τι ασβερκους θα ερθεις βρε μαλακα, εγω κανω ΜΜΑ κι εχω φιλους πρωταθλητες στους μαλακες τους
χοντροκεφαλους θα κολωσω?? Παλιο προδοτη ατομα σαν εσενα θα επρεπε να τα απελλασουν πισω στην αρμενια

[DarknessWin]

The only ancient R1a sample found in the Balkans is R1a-Z93, which is very low in modern Balkan populations.

Quite a big deal of the R1a there was brought from Slavs.

If Dorian invasion was a fact, they were most likely R1b, with minorities of others.

Anyway the theories going in this thread are outdated as fuck, speculating on haplogroups, shooting in the dark.


This idiot fake greek is the only one that believe Haplogroups have huge connection to DNA.
Actually Haplo is only 0.001% of the DNA and mean NOTHING at all

[DarknessWin]

Indeed dude!What i am saying is that Dorians were mostly of R1b.Just see where this haplo hits in Greece.Crete,some parts of peloponnesus were Dorians settled and some islands.Some clades like R1b-277 founding also in South Italy and Pontus region.It has to do probably with dorian settlement.

I don't think Proto-Greeks were the same tribe with Dorians thats why i said they were probably r1a people.I think these r1a lineages assimilated into the neolithic populations EV13 etc.


Where you have lost btw....


Dorians were the most close people to other ancient balkanians and most of them were DinaroMeds.
so their haplo were EV13 mostly just like Macedonians and Epirotans

R1b LOL , maybe you believe that Dorians were Celts??
You are clueless as fuck

[Dick]

interesting

[Robocop]

Yes you attack it , its like you say that 20% EV13 Greeks today are not greeks but slaves and gypsies.
You want me maybe to sent you photos of modern Greeks from that Haplo???
You can see Pontids , DinaroPontids and even Nordids among them

No it doesn't mean that, those EV-13 Greeks are Greeks as anyone else today, why cant you understand what I wrote? Those EV-13 ppl became Greeks in Archaic Period of Greeks means from 1000-600 BC already, not to mention in Classical Greek period when Greek ethnos in Greece was totally formed, but Alpha and Omega of everything Greek were Dorians with their arrival first 1750 (Myceneans), then second wave around 1100 BC.

There is no homogenus ppl in Europe today, why would you say that EV-13 were not Greeks today if that's true what I wrote about settling the Greece, and it is true. They are Greeks as much as R1b and other Greeks.

Just like you have Germans with R1a or Austrians whose predominant Y-DNA is R1a, what, they're not Austrians cause of it? Jesus christ.



Alexander was also probably EV13 as his army spread this haplo in the east.
You people pissed me off with this haplo and indoeuropean crap fake history

Macedonians were Dorians who stayed in North of Greece, they spoke IndoEuropean, they started Hellenic period (golden period along with greek classical period), man I have nothing against EV-13 ppl or J2 ppl, NOTHING AT ALL, you take all this way to personally, I was just writing what will you learn on every university in Athens or anywhere in Europe.

EV-13 ppl were natives in Greece before Greek arrival, later got Hellenized and became totally Greek, nothin less Greek than others.

Just like with other ppl in Europe, R1A ppl got germanized, some R1b got slavicized, and so on so on and so on, why taking this totally neutral scientific discussion so personally.

[Hadouken]

I am E-L29

it was E1b something before 23andme updated

[Robocop]

mycenean and minoan genetic composition does not correlate with their ydna, what you don't understand?They simply fucked neolithic females, like everyone from S-E europe.According to you R1a indians&pakistans are blonde blue eyed russians, r1b congolese are western keltids...

The only thing I dont understand with ppl here is how the Hell can they think that Minoans were Greeks?

Minoans WERE NOT GREEKS at all, they were Minoans, that's it, all the way until arrival of Myceneans to Crete when they submited Minoans to them and started to live with them, we have proofs for all this, do we need to mention Minoan lang. which has nothing to do not only with Greeks but no one around?

P.S. What I was thought and read about Myceneans, they were R1 ppl, at least when arrived 1750, we cannot view Myceneans same from 1300 BC as those originals from 1750.

Myceneans were in fact first wave of Dorians (first Greeks), second wave of Dorians came after downfall of Myceneans, later on from Dorians emerged SPARTANS and also Macedonians were Dorians (greeks original).

I swear man this is what I was learning on university, word by word, and not only in Croatian university, but when we travelled to Greece, same thing Greek professors were saying in museum of Athens.

P.S. One more time for everyone; Minoans were first european civilization, YES, but they were not Greeks/Hellens, except later after 1750 when got Hellenized by Myceneans, but peek of Minoan civilization lasted from 3000-1750 BC, this is just a fact.

[Kelmendasi]

Of course Albanians were just a geographical term like European , it dont mean than Europeans are the same.
Tosks are actually Meds and close to Greeks while Ghegs are close to Balkanians
This is false, Albanian wasn't an umbrella term and has never been one. Language, genetics and culture are testament to this. Albanians were noted as being the most homogenous European ethnic group in terms of IBD so what you say is clearly wrong, https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555, if what you say was true then Albanians would be heterogenous which just isn't the case. Lol so you even claim Tosks xD...

[Kelmendasi]

Slavic is only R1a-M458 you moron , I2 is the most ancient haplo in Balkans and have connection to Thracians,Illyrians and ancient Greeks

To see people speaking slavic dont make them slavs , you also speak Greek but you are armenian .....

My phenotype is 100% Med Pontid so i cant be Slavic , Slavs were Gorid and Baltid mostly

Με τι ασβερκους θα ερθεις βρε μαλακα, εγω κανω ΜΜΑ κι εχω φιλους πρωταθλητες στους μαλακες τους
χοντροκεφαλους θα κολωσω?? Παλιο προδοτη ατομα σαν εσενα θα επρεπε να τα απελλασουν πισω στην αρμενια
The I2 in modern day Balkans is from Slavic input, btw it's best to refer to clades and not general haplogroups like I2. The clade of I2 most dominant in the Balkans is CTS10228 and it's downstreams which are clearly Slavic in origin. The only I2 clades found in the ancient Balkan samples have been I2a2a

[IncelSlayer]

The I2 in modern day Balkans is from Slavic input.

there is absolutely no proof of this statement.

[Kelmendasi]

there is absolutely no proof of this statement.
There is, it's actually the opposite as there is no proof that it's native, in fact that theory is outdated and isn't taken seriously anymore. Highest diversity is within the Ukraine, Poland and Belarus areas as well as the fact that they have low TMRCAs suggesting a more recent expansion, plus the oldest I2a-CTS10228 samples being found in NE Europe. I2a-CTS10228 in the Balkans has very little diversity and it's high frequency is due to founder effects. Although I should in fact say that certain clades like I2a2a, I2a1a, I2c etc aren't Slavic but are from Germanic or native Balkan input

[IncelSlayer]

There is, it's actually the opposite as there is no proof that it's native, in fact that theory is outdated and isn't taken seriously anymore. Highest diversity is within the Ukraine, Poland and Belarus areas as well as the fact that they have low TMRCAs suggesting a more recent expansion, plus the oldest I2a-CTS10228 samples being found in NE Europe. I2a-CTS10228 in the Balkans has very little diversity and it's high frequency is due to founder effects. Although I should in fact say that certain clades like I2a2a, I2a1a, I2c etc aren't Slavic but are from Germanic or native Balkan input

There isn't any proof that can link I2 to slavic expansion, neither a low TMRCA nor I2a having highest diversity among balts can be used as proof.
I would be more worried about that Iron Age montenegrin sample that plotted with finns and northern euro's if i were you, you lucked out that they couldn't extract the ydna from it, not that it would matter anyway as genetically you are at the bottom of similiarity with it.
If you want to talk about founding effects, look at Kosovo EV13 "Albanians aren't native to Kosovo, they are mostly post-medieval immigrants there."
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html

[Kelmendasi]

There isn't any proof that can link I2 to slavic expansion, neither a low TMRCA nor I2a having highest diversity among balts can be used as proof.
I would be more worried about that Iron Age montenegrin sample that plotted with finns and northern euro's if i were you, you lucked out that they couldn't extract the ydna from it.
If you want to talk about founding effects, look at Kosovo EV13 "Albanians aren't native to Kosovo, they are mostly post-medieval immigrants there."
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html
Why so much hate lol? The Slavic origin of I2a-CTS10228 in the Balkans is basically confirmed, if it isn't then tell me why it isn't. The Iron Age Montenegrin sample that plotted with northern Euros had a very low amount of SNPs and was unstable so it isn't really reliable, check out actual plots shown in papers and not samples uploaded on Gedmatch that don't have enough SNPs to even predict eye colour. Dinekes made that theory in 2008 which is when it was believed that V13 has it's highest diversity in Greece but more recent studies have shown that V13 actually reaches highest frequencies in the area between Montenegro, Albania and Serbia https://www.scribd.com/document/368006312/Argonauts-of-the-West-Balkans, and the further testing of Albanians has proven a diversity of E-V13 as well as basal clades being present such as CTS5856*, Z5018*, CTS9320* etc.

[Robocop]

There is, it's actually the opposite as there is no proof that it's native, in fact that theory is outdated and isn't taken seriously anymore. Highest diversity is within the Ukraine, Poland and Belarus areas as well as the fact that they have low TMRCAs suggesting a more recent expansion, plus the oldest I2a-CTS10228 samples being found in NE Europe. I2a-CTS10228 in the Balkans has very little diversity and it's high frequency is due to founder effects. Although I should in fact say that certain clades like I2a2a, I2a1a, I2c etc aren't Slavic but are from Germanic or native Balkan input

All this will be solved when someone finally research those graves from 5th century in south Croatia, native graves btw, not from Goths.

Then, we will know for sure what is what, until then, we can have this discussions about I2 until ending of the universe :)

[Kelmendasi]

All this will be solved when someone finally research those graves from 5th century in south Croatia, native graves btw, not from Goths.

Then, we will know for sure what is what, until then, we can have this discussions about I2 until ending of the universe :)
Yh people do actually need to test Illyrian samples, there have been many graves from Albania that have been found but nobody is going to test them which is annoying.

[Robocop]

Yh people do actually need to test Illyrian samples, there have been many graves from Albania that have been found but nobody is going to test them which is annoying.

Well, it is annyoing and it is expensive, but those rich fuckers from Euro institutes said they will do it like this year, but still nothing, at least those graves from Croatia.

Sometimes I think they dont do shit just to watch us all here fucking each others while they're laughing.

IN THE MEANTIME they fucking researched everything in France (just an example), everyone knows everything there about themselves, and there is no problem, and here, fucking mess over one god damn Y-DNA.

Trust me, I dont care is it I2a1b native or not, I just wanna know, just like you, until then they left us with those individual findings in north east europe which says nothing.

Because you are reasonable man, we cannot for example say that Dacians (just an example) were not probably I2a1b right? Why not, I would place my hand in fire they were I2, we can give it a chance that I2 was spreaded even further to west of Romania (Dacia), maybe not as predominant but never the less, some things just dont adds up.

For example please read this (with open mind) what I have to say:

1. Croats came from today's Poland, that's a fact, ok.

2. Today I2a1b "is present" there like Martians on Saturn, how come? Were Croats some Predators or Aliens who protected their Y-DNA for 3 centuries there that hard with laser-rifles etc... against all R1a ppl around them? rofl, think about it.

3. How come R1a when it comes about Croatia is dominant in Northern Croatia but not South, it doesn't have any sence man.

Honestly.

Think about it at least from Historical point of view, so Slavs are coming here in 7th century, and they do what if they carried I2a1b? Pass North of Croatia and settle themselves in south, while Slavs OF R1A stayed in North of Croatia cause this I2a1b Croats told them to stay there cause they're R1a? :D

Im not saying this or that, Im just saying we are all shooting in the "dark room" here when it comes about this Y-DNA, because we dont have any hard evidence until those PRICKS FINALLY MAKE research.

[IncelSlayer]

Why so much hate lol? The Slavic origin of I2a-CTS10228 in the Balkans is practically confirmed, if it isn't then tell why it isn't. The Iron Age Montenegrin sample that plotted with northern Euros had a very low amount of SNPs and was unstable so it isn't really reliable, check out actual plots shown in papers and not samples uploaded on Gedmatch that don't have enough SNPs to even predict eye colour. Dinekes made that theory in 2008 which is when it was believed that V13 has it's highest diversity in Greece but more recent studies have shown that V13 actually reaches highest frequencies in the area between Montenegro, Albania and Serbia https://www.scribd.com/document/368006312/Argonauts-of-the-West-Balkans, and the further testing of Albanians has proven a diversity of E-V13 as well as basal clades being present such as CTS5856*, Z5018*, CTS9320* etc.
No one argues its northern euro origin, but there is no proof of it coming with the slavic tribes in the balkans.
>very low amount of SNP
>unstable
Cope, its pretty much average northern euro steppe person, which coincides with its steppe burial style and date, can't imagine him speaking albanian and dressed with white turban and clown shoes.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/252132842266558464/488695256322408448/unknown.png?width=1443&height=223
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/abr.gif

EV13 in Kosovo is still middle ages founder effect from Albania

[Kelmendasi]

No one argues its northern euro origin, but there is no proof of it coming with the slavic tribes in the balkans.
>very low amount of SNP
>unstable
Cope, its pretty much average northern euro steppe person, which coincides with its steppe burial style and date, can't imagine him speaking albanian and dressed with white turban and clown shoes.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/252132842266558464/488695256322408448/unknown.png?width=1443&height=223
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/abr.gif

EV13 in Kosovo is still middle ages founder effect from Albania
Lol ok man

[RenaRyuguu]

Southern Anatolia was colonised early by Neolithic farmers and herders from the Fertile Crescent (E1b1b, G2a, J1, J2, T).

The Indo-European invasions brought the Hittites (1750 BCE), the Lydians and Lycians (1450 BCE), Phrygians (1200 BE) and the Proto-Armenians (1200 BCE). All were probably predominantly R1b-L23, considering its high percentage in the regions they settled. R1b Indo-Europeans are thought to have originated on the north-eastern shores of the Black Sea, just north of the Caucasus. They could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

Later R1b were possibly (part of) the Sea Peoples that ravaged the ancient Near Eastern civilizations, from Greece to Egypt. Their advance military technology and sea-based culture make of them very good candidates.

The Cimmerians are probably the last wave of migration (around 700 BCE) from the Pontic Steppe. By that time the steppe would have been thoroughly overrun by R1a people, so that was probably the Cimmerians's main haplogroup. They are said to have be expelled from Anatolia and moved to Europe, where they joined the other R1b people. Germanic and Celtic people both claim (partial) Cimmerian ancestry.

Map of Hittite Empire (Hittite language is the oldest known IndoEuropean language);

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Map_Hittite_rule_en.svg

Yes