FST distances between Balto-Slavs

[Jana]

https://i.imgur.com/rO3dv9L.png

Source: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0135820

[Crimean]

As I suspected, the southern Russians are brothers for everyone in eastern and central Europe, and the northern Russians are Ugric aliens:D.
Seriously, when someone talks about the unity and homogeneity of the Russian people, do not believe him.
Southerners (Crimea, Kuban, Northern Caucasus) are poorly psychologically compatible with the northerners (Vologda, Novgorod, Arkhangelsk). Mentality is very different.

[michal3141]

Conclusions:

Poles = Belarusians
Bulgarians = Macedonians
Latvians = Lithuanians *

*genetically

[Jana]

Interesting how Montenegrins show relative genetic isolation compared to their neighbours.

[Run-time]

In Russia, two problems - fools and roads. I wonder what Crimean concerns?
1. The Crimea, the Kuban and the North Caucasus are not Southern Russia. Southern Russia in a genetic sense - Kursk, Lipetsk, Voronezh, Murom, Ryazan, etc. These cities are the trustees of the south of Russia. Crimea and Kuban are not taken into account, as mixed populations of Russians from different regions of Russia live there.

2. And now, due to this notorious article and pictures. This article has gained wide resonance on Russian sites and forums because of erroneous layouts of samples. Northern Russians are represented here as a model of Pomors - Mezen and Pinega (a small disappearing mixed Russian-Finnish sub-ethnos), and central Russians - a sample from Kargopol and Unzha. Today, these Russians are defined to the Northern Russians.
3. Novgorod is not the northern Russians, but the north-western Russians. They are not included in this table. Genetically, Novgorodians are close to Central Russian.

[Run-time]

The Russian Center in this table is in fact = the Russian North. Since the proxy of the "Russian Center" was the northern city of Kargopol. Dialect Kargopol - the central Russian, but territorially it is Northern Russia - Arkhangelsk region.

However, the representative of the Russian north is Mezen and Pinega, in fact it is the Russified Finns of Veps and Karelians. In the table there is no present Russian North (Vologda, Arkhangelsk).

In general, Russian samples are completely distorted here and this issue was raised in many Russian forums and declared invalid.


PS The user under the name of Crimean is some sort of eccentric half-meter who has no idea about the southern Russians and Northern Russian

[michal3141]

The Russian Center in this table is in fact = the Russian North. Since the proxy of the "Russian Center" was the northern city of Kargopol. Dialect Kargopol - the central Russian, but territorially it is Northern Russia - Arkhangelsk region.

However, the representative of the Russian north is Mezen and Pinega, in fact it is the Russified Finns of Veps and Karelians. In the table there is no present Russian North (Vologda, Arkhangelsk).

In general, Russian samples are completely distorted here and this issue was raised in many Russian forums and declared invalid.


PS The user under the name of Crimean is some sort of eccentric half-meter who has no idea about the southern Russians and Northern Russian

Great answer! It explains a lot. I am still wondering about Central Russians. Which cities should be considered?

Northern Russians: Mezen, Pinega
Central Russians: ?
Southern Russians: Kursk, Lipetsk, Voronezh, Murom, Ryazan

[Jana]

The Russian Center in this table is in fact = the Russian North. Since the proxy of the "Russian Center" was the northern city of Kargopol. Dialect Kargopol - the central Russian, but territorially it is Northern Russia - Arkhangelsk region.

However, the representative of the Russian north is Mezen and Pinega, in fact it is the Russified Finns of Veps and Karelians. In the table there is no present Russian North (Vologda, Arkhangelsk).

In general, Russian samples are completely distorted here and this issue was raised in many Russian forums and declared invalid.

PS The user under the name of Crimean is some sort of eccentric half-meter who has no idea about the southern Russians and Northern Russian

There are sampling issues in many of such studies yet it does not take from it's value. For example, Polish samples are from Mazovia and more northeastern shifted than rest of Poland.

It is quite obvious that these Northern Russian samples are heavily Finnic. But Finno-Ugric substratum is reality for all northern Russians just in quite smaller amount.

[Run-time]

Great answer! It explains a lot. I am still wondering about Central Russians. Which cities should be considered?

Northern Russians: Mezen, Pinega
Central Russians: ?
Southern Russians: Kursk, Lipetsk, Voronezh, Murom, Ryazan
Russian centers consist of samples from Tver, Kargopol, Unzhi (far east of the original Russian territory) and someone else (I do not remember, perhaps Smolensk). In general, a very "successful" sample of central Russians, consisting of border zones. Tver merges with the southern Russians into one. Kargopol and Unzha pull a little to the north, so the benchmark deviated from the southern Russians towards Mezeni and Pinega. Real central Russian: Tver, Moscow, Nizhny Novgorod, Yaroslavl, Western Kostroma, and so on. Almost indistinguishable from the southern Russians. It's also unclear who Belorussians and Ukrainians are. Western Ukrainians are very different from Eastern Ukrainians and tend to the Balkans rather. Apparently this is also a mixed sample, which does not tell us anything.

[Crimean]

The Russian Center in this table is in fact = the Russian North. Since the proxy of the "Russian Center" was the northern city of Kargopol. Dialect Kargopol - the central Russian, but territorially it is Northern Russia - Arkhangelsk region.

However, the representative of the Russian north is Mezen and Pinega, in fact it is the Russified Finns of Veps and Karelians. In the table there is no present Russian North (Vologda, Arkhangelsk).

In general, Russian samples are completely distorted here and this issue was raised in many Russian forums and declared invalid.


PS The user under the name of Crimean is some sort of eccentric half-meter who has no idea about the southern Russians and Northern Russian
Look, this clown counts Ryazan and Murom as a South Russian cities! 200 km from Moscow! And "Ryazan muzzles" in your opinion are the South-Russian faces?
Southern Russians proper have heavy Pontid component, and often have Romanian, Bulgarian and even Western Turkish vibe. At the same time, the face and physique are often subtle, and not like those of the Ryazan people.
As for differences in mentality, they are also big. Southern Russians are noisier and cheerful, but slightly more prone to crime. They drink little. And the northerners are sad depressive drunkards. Just compare the condition of villages and small towns in the north and south of Russia. You have all this old and rotten, because of drinking and lack of money, and the south is in a relative order (as in Ukraine). Because you have to work and not be drunk all the time.

[Proto-Shaman]

Baltic autosomal DNA
https://i.imgur.com/UxQimIc.jpg

South Slavic autosomal DNA
https://i.imgur.com/MggO7Bb.jpg

West+East Slav autosomal DNA
https://i.imgur.com/SmEuD4Q.jpg

North Russian autosomal DNA
https://i.imgur.com/Aq8x06V.jpg

[Run-time]

There are sampling issues in many of such studies yet it does not take from it's value. For example, Polish samples are from Mazovia and more northeastern shifted than rest of Poland.

It is quite obvious that these Northern Russian samples are heavily Finnic. But Finno-Ugric substratum is reality for all northern Russians just in quite smaller amount.

Yes, for some reason Russian samples were heavily moved to the north. I do not think this is a malicious intention, but for Russians this greatly distorted the picture. (Pomor = Russian, as the Estonian pole = pole). Since Pomors make up 0.1% of all northern Russians. And the northern Russians make up 10% of all Russians. The Finnish substrate is. But the Russian Finns themselves have a Baltic substratum - Veps, Izhora, Mordva and so on.

[Agyullámtörő]

As I suspected, the southern Russians are brothers for everyone in eastern and central Europe, and the northern Russians are Ugric aliens:D.
Seriously, when someone talks about the unity and homogeneity of the Russian people, do not believe him.
Southerners (Crimea, Kuban, Northern Caucasus) are poorly psychologically compatible with the northerners (Vologda, Novgorod, Arkhangelsk). Mentality is very different.

Most of the so called russian ”slavs” are just assimilated finnic people. 1/4 of russians have Finnic genetic:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

[Vlatko Vukovic]

...

So North Russian is literally equal to Baltic autosomal or?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Most of the so called russian ”slavs” are just assimilated finnic people. 1/4 of russians have Finnic genetic:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

And why is that so weird (and informative) for such large country with such milions of citizens? There are various influences in Russia, in the same way as there are various influences in Turkey.

[Proto-Shaman]

Most of the so called russian ”slavs” are just assimilated finnic people. 1/4 of russians have Finnic genetic:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Hungarian mtDNA not very Finno-Ugric sweetheart
https://i.imgur.com/FTwgkX0.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dArJH0M.jpg

[Proto-Shaman]

So North Russian is literally equal to Baltic autosomal or?
yes.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Hungarian mtDNA not very Finno-Ugric sweetheart
https://i.imgur.com/FTwgkX0.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dArJH0M.jpg

Kazakhs are calling Stears. :D

[Agyullámtörő]

Kazakhs are calling Stears. :D

This map is complete bullshit, the hungarian mtdna is clearly european:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_mtdna_haplogroups_frequency.shtml

[Jana]

Baltic autosomal DNA
https://i.imgur.com/UxQimIc.jpg

South Slavic autosomal DNA
https://i.imgur.com/MggO7Bb.jpg

West+East Slav autosomal DNA
https://i.imgur.com/SmEuD4Q.jpg

North Russian autosomal DNA
https://i.imgur.com/Aq8x06V.jpg

This looks like haplogroup frequencies to me.

[Loki]

Interesting how Montenegrins show relative genetic isolation compared to their neighbours.

That is because the Montenegrins are less "Slavic" than the rest in this list... they have a lot of "Albanian" in them...

[Loki]

As I suspected, the southern Russians are brothers for everyone in eastern and central Europe, and the northern Russians are Ugric aliens:D.
Seriously, when someone talks about the unity and homogeneity of the Russian people, do not believe him.
Southerners (Crimea, Kuban, Northern Caucasus) are poorly psychologically compatible with the northerners (Vologda, Novgorod, Arkhangelsk). Mentality is very different.

Interesting :)

How would you describe the differences in mentally, if you can, briefly?

[Jana]

That is because the Montenegrins are less "Slavic" than the rest in this list... they have a lot of "Albanian" in them...

I doubt they are less Slavic than Macedonians or Bulgarians, who show less isolation. Maybe it has something to do with their mountanious setting and clan structure.

[IncelSlayer]

That is because the Montenegrins are less "Slavic" than the rest in this list... they have a lot of "Albanian" in them...

Not true, its albanians who have montenegrin blood, not montenegrins who have albanian blood.Montenegrins I've seen on 23andme have 1 star albania, by default, in contrast romanians have 2-3 stars on albania on average, and albanians have 5 stars montenengro.

[Kelmendasi]

Not true, its albanians who have montenegrin blood, not montenegrins who have albanian blood.Montenegrins I've seen on 23andme have 1 star albania, by default, in contrast romanians have 2-3 stars on albania on average, and albanians have 5 stars montenengro.
You do realize that this would still would mean that Montenegrins mixed with Albanians? Albanian-Montenegrin marriages were rare and were only really practiced by Albanians from Montenegro, and in those cases it was the men who took Montenegrin women. Anyways Montenegrins, especially the ones from the Brda, do have Albanian input and same goes for Albanians from regions closer to Montenegro.

[Run-time]

Look, this clown counts Ryazan and Murom as a South Russian cities! 200 km from Moscow! And "Ryazan muzzles" in your opinion are the South-Russian faces?
Southern Russians proper have heavy Pontid component, and often have Romanian, Bulgarian and even Western Turkish vibe. At the same time, the face and physique are often subtle, and not like those of the Ryazan people.
As for differences in mentality, they are also big. Southern Russians are noisier and cheerful, but slightly more prone to crime. They drink little. And the northerners are sad depressive drunkards. Just compare the condition of villages and small towns in the north and south of Russia. You have all this old and rotten, because of drinking and lack of money, and the south is in a relative order (as in Ukraine). Because you have to work and not be drunk all the time.

Russians do not have self-consciousness divisions in the northern / central / southern ones. These are artificial divisions in linguistics, where several Russian dialectic zones are singled out. There is a concept of the original resettlement of Russians. The territory of the original resettlement of the Russians does not include the Crimea, the Kuban and the North Caucasus. These territories were inhabited not only by southern Russians but also by northern Russians and central Russians. Moreover, these territories were actively populated by Ukrainians. Here is the description of the anthropology of northern Russian and southern Russian. The differences are minimal.

Northern - Novgorod: Ilmen-Belozersky. The head index is from 78 to 80, a relatively narrow and rather heavily profiled face. A high percentage of light eyes (from 45 to 57), a significant percentage of light hues of hair (from 29 to 40), relatively strong growth of the beard and a fairly high growth [28] [26].

Southern - Kursk: Verkhneoksky. The head index is 81.3, the percentage of light irises (without light-mixed) is 47, the percentage of light hair is 25 [31].

Quote from Balanovsky Doctor of Science:
Of definite interest is the gene pool of the northern Russians. Northern populations of Russians show rather strong differences from other Russian populations [16] [54] [55]. Until recently, it was assumed that such differences can be explained by the significant Finno-Ugric component that became part of the northern Russians during the Slavic colonization of this territory [16] [55] [56] [52]. Recent studies, which included a comprehensive analysis of Y-chromosome markers, mtDNA and autosomal markers, suggest a more pronounced similarity between northern Russians and the population of Northern Europe as a whole [57]. In particular, the northern Russians in the complex of signs of genogeography are most similar to the Balts (Latvians and Lithuanians) and Swedes [57], rather small genetic distances separates them from the Baltic-Finnish (Finns, Estonians, Karelians, Vepsians and Izhors) and some Permian-Finnish (Komi) peoples, as well as from many peoples of Central and Eastern Europe [57]. At the same time, the peoples of the Volga-Finnish group are removed from the entire European massif and from the northern Russians, which may indicate the absence of the previously assumed strong contribution of the Finno-Ugrian formation to the formation of the population of the Russian North. Thus, the revealed similarity of the gene pool of northern Russians with the gene pools of Central Europe and the north of Eastern Europe allows us to put forward a hypothesis about the preservation in these territories of an ancient paleo-European gene pool that is included in the composition of both northern Russians and the rest of the peoples of Northern Europe [57].

[Arborean]

Not true, its albanians who have montenegrin blood, not montenegrins who have albanian blood.Montenegrins I've seen on 23andme have 1 star albania, by default, in contrast romanians have 2-3 stars on albania on average, and albanians have 5 stars montenengro.

Depends on which side of Montenegro. Eastern Montenegrins cluster with Albanians, and that is because of Albanian genetics. Western Montenegro on the other hand cluster more with other Slavs, especially Serbs, because Albanians didnt settle or migrate that far. Please explain how Southern Albanians get 4-5 stars in Montenegro, when they did NOT migrate that far inland into Albania. The reverse is more likely true. Considering a good many of Montenegrin testers on 23 are from eastern Montenegro, Albanian genetics is obviously the link, whether you want to admit it or not.

[IncelSlayer]

You do realize that this would still would mean that Montenegrins mixed with Albanians? Albanian-Montenegrin marriages were rare and were only really practiced by Albanians from Montenegro, and in those cases it was the men who took Montenegrin women. Anyways Montenegrins, especially the ones from the Brda, do have Albanian input and same goes for Albanians from regions closer to Montenegro.

Because albanians took montenegrin wives in those cases, so its you who have montenegrin blood, not montenegrins who have albanian blood.You just confirming what I said, montenegrins from montenegro proper dont have any albanian blood.


Depends on which side of Montenegro. Eastern Montenegrins cluster with Albanians, and that is because of Albanian genetics.

Eastern montenegrins also have EV13 of albanian subclade and not the Vasojevic one,not hard to figure out why.


Please explain how Southern Albanians get 4-5 stars in Montenegro, when they did NOT migrate that far inland into Albania. The reverse is more likely true. Considering a good many of Montenegrin testers on 23 are from eastern Montenegro, Albanian genetics is obviously the link, whether you want to admit it or not.

They mixed with ghegs who mixed with montenegrins.

[Loki]

Not true, its albanians who have montenegrin blood, not montenegrins who have albanian blood.Montenegrins I've seen on 23andme have 1 star albania, by default, in contrast romanians have 2-3 stars on albania on average, and albanians have 5 stars montenengro.

Don't you think they're Slavicized Illyrians to a certain extent? Forget the term "Albanians" I used, and think Illyrian.

[Kelmendasi]

Because albanians took montenegrin wives in those cases, so its you who have montenegrin blood, not montenegrins who have albanian blood.You just confirming what I said, montenegrins from montenegro proper dont have any albanian blood.
But still it would mean that Montenegrins mixed. Btw certain clans from Brda have Albanian paternal origin but have been Slavicized so in their cases they have Albanian blood. Anyways the Monetengrin admix in Albanians isn't even a major thing, it only occurred in certain areas and certain clans

[IncelSlayer]

But still it would mean that Montenegrins mixed. Btw certain clans from Brda have Albanian paternal origin but have been Slavicized so in their cases they have Albanian blood. Anyways the Monetengrin admix in Albanians isn't even a major thing, it only occurred in certain areas and certain clans

No, it means albanians mixed with montenegrins, they took montenegrin wives, they are the ones with 5 star montenegro.Montenegrins dont have 5 stars albania, not even close LMFAO.
Montenegrins from Montenegro proper have no albanian admixture.

[Jana]

I don't think I ever seen gedmatch runs of eastern (or western) Montenegrins. Only generic ones, and they don't cluster with Albanians even if Albanian input in certain Montenegrin clans is undeniable.

[Kelmendasi]

No, it means albanians mixed with montenegrins, they took montenegrin wives, they are the ones with 5 star montenegro.Montenegrins dont have 5 stars albania, not even close LMFAO.
Montenegrins from Montenegro proper have no albanian admixture.
Have you looked at all the Montenegrin samples from 23andme? Albanians that aren't from Montenegro or the northernmost parts of Albania don't have Montenegrin admix either. Still though, Brda clans surely do have Albanian input.

[Crimean]

Russians do not have self-consciousness divisions in the northern / central / southern ones.
Vyatich, you convinced me.
There is no more ungrateful business than quarreling with your own people.

[Run-time]

Most of the so called russian ”slavs” are just assimilated finnic people. 1/4 of russians have Finnic genetic:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
50% of Balts have a "Finnish" haplogroup N. At the same time they remain the most full-blooded Europeans and Balts in autosomal genetics. There is such a thing as the drift of genes, when the haplogroup of one lucky person takes out other haplogroups. At the same time, autosomal genetics almost does not change. The Russians of the south and the center are the most full-fledged Balto-Slavs in Europe. Russian north have a small Finnish and Baltic admixture. Russians in the far north - Pomors are 50% Finns. But this is a sub-ethnos of the Russian people.

[IncelSlayer]

Don't you think they're Slavicized Illyrians to a certain extent? Forget the term "Albanians" I used, and think Illyrian.

No, illyrians were a bunch of corded nordoids(shown by glasinac skulls) from late Iron Age, so called Halstatt period, who were thoroughly massacred by romans.

[Peterski]

https://i.imgur.com/rO3dv9L.png

Source: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0135820

Note that they used Estonian Poles in that study.

I was surprised we are so close to Latvians and I started a thread about this FST data on Eupedia long ago:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32372-Surprising-genetic-similarity-between-Poles-and-Latvians


Surprising genetic similarity between Poles and Latvians

Poles are more closely autosomally related to Latvians than any other Slavic group:

Genetic distance between Latvians and:

0) Latvians - 0,0000
1) Lithuanians - 0,0000
2) Poles - 0,0011
3) Central Russians - 0,0014
4) Belarusians - 0,0015
5) South Russians - 0,0018
6) Ukrainians - 0,0019
7) Slovaks - 0,0026
8) Czechs - 0,0029
9) Croatians - 0,0036
10) Slovenes - 0,0037
11) Bosnians - 0,0038
12) Serbians - 0,0054
13) Bulgarians - 0,0059
14) Macedonians - 0,0066
15) Montenegrins - 0,0073
16) North Russians - 0,0096

In case of Lithuanians, Poles are second and Belarusians first among Slavic groups:

Genetic distance between Lithuanians and:

0) Lithuanians - 0,0000
1) Latvians - 0,0000
2) Belarusians - 0,0008
3) Poles - 0,0011
4) Ukrainians - 0,0020
5) Central Russians - 0,0021
6) South Russians - 0,0022
7) Czechs - 0,0026
8) Slovaks - 0,0030
9) Croatians - 0,0036
10) Slovenes - 0,0042
11) Bosnians - 0,0042
12) Serbians - 0,0052
13) Bulgarians - 0,0058
14) Macedonians - 0,0065
15) Montenegrins - 0,0077
16) Norh Russians - 0,0098

Source:

A. Kushniarevich et al., "Genetic Heritage of the Balto-Slavic Speaking Populations", Table B in S1 File.
Matrix of mean population pairwise Fst for Balto-Slavic populations calculated from autosomal SNP data.

They used auDNA of Estonian Poles and Mazovians:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32372-Surprising-genetic-similarity-between-Poles-and-Latvians/page2?p=504478&viewfull=1#post504478

https://i.imgur.com/83DtW8q.jpg

Wrocław area (DS) is in ca. 1/2 settled by Poles from Lviv area:

https://i.redd.it/g0hyjrqpb5h11.png

So the gepgraphical origin of samples explains this.

Example of ethnic Pole with ancestry from near what is now the Latvian-Belarusian border (his Y-DNA is N1c):

https://i.imgur.com/wY6gSe5.png

Mlukas also commented:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32372-Surprising-genetic-similarity-between-Poles-and-Latvians/page2?p=521450&viewfull=1#post521450


Kushnarevich used samples of Estonian Poles, actually they have self reporting Polish ancestry and mostly there were mixed with Estonians and Russians. They were completely unrepresentative as Polish reference.

[Arborean]

Have you looked at all the Montenegrin samples from 23andme? Albanians that aren't from Montenegro or the northernmost parts of Albania don't have Montenegrin admix either. Still though, Brda clans surely do have Albanian input.

Hes full of crap dude. I have seen Southern Albanians get 4-5 stars in Montenegro. Montenegrins did not go that far south...

A good many Montenegrin samples on 23andme are from East Montenegro, so Albanian connection is obvious.

[Crimean]

Interesting :)

How would you describe the differences in mentally, if you can, briefly?
Basic things I tried to describe here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?258811-FST-distances-between-Balto-Slavs&p=5419005&viewfull=1#post5419005
If I'll try to deepen this "research", then I'm afraid it will be too hot in this thread:D.

[IncelSlayer]

Hes full of crap dude. I have seen Southern Albanians get 4-5 stars in Montenegro. Montenegrins did not go that far south...

A good many Montenegrin samples on 23andme are from East Montenegro, so Albanian connection is obvious.

Montenegrins did not go that far in south, but ghegs who were mixed with montenegrins did.
Sock puppet of Dibran,perma banned member by Loki,Im talking about montenegrins from Montenegro proper, not from border with Albania, what can't you understand?

[Peterski]

Poles = Belarusians

If you sample Estonian Poles, then yes (they are also close to Latvians). We are talking about Governorate of Livonia of the Russian Empire, which was part of Poland between 1561 and 1622, hence it has Polish Diaspora. This area also has people who were counted in Russian censuses as "Roman Catholic Belarusian-speakers". In fact they self-identified as Poles though (like the vast majority of Roman Catholic Belarusians).

More ethnic Poles lived in Courland (mainly Ilukste county) and Polish Livonia (the latter part of Vitebsk Governorate).

According to the Polish census of 1919, Ilukste area was 53% ethnically Polish. Latvian census in 1920 counted 33%.

There was a Polish-Latvian border dispute over that area with many ethnic Poles (Ilukste and Daugavpils regions).

[Magnolia]

Polish samples were taken from Estonia, of course.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=large&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0135820.g001

Samples for studies should be selected by TA's Poles then results will be accurate of course.

[Run-time]

Russian Arkhangelsk is the Russians in the eastern part of the Arkhangelsk region - Mezen and Pinega. Two eastern Pomors villages on the edge of a huge Arkhangelsk region. Even in the 17th century, it was known about their Finnish origin from the Russian fathers and Finnish mothers. The real Russians of the North are Kargopol, Unzha, Vologda and the surroundings of Arkhangelsk. They do not look like Finns. Here is what Balanovsky writes:

In particular, the northern Russians in the complex of signs of genogeography are most similar to the Balts (Latvians and Lithuanians) and Swedes [57], rather small genetic distances separates them from the Baltic-Finnish (Finns, Estonians, Karelians, Vepsians and Izhors) and some Permian-Finnish (Komi) peoples, as well as from many peoples of Central and Eastern Europe [57].

Thus, the revealed similarity of the gene pool of northern Russians with the gene pools of Central Europe and the north of Eastern Europe allows us to put forward a hypothesis about the preservation in these territories of an ancient paleo-European gene pool that is included in the composition of both northern Russians and the rest of the peoples of Northern Europe [57].

[Peterski]

Polish samples were taken from Estonia, of course.

Yes, because samples were collected mainly by scientists from the Estonian Biocentre in Tartu. Autosomal data was collected from Estonian and Mazovian Poles (the same Poles that Behar's study used).

Locations where samples were taken are provided in Supplementary Material:

https://i.imgur.com/fCcLNjZ.png

It is good that they sampled Polish Diaspora in Estonia but it shouldn't represent entire Poland. It would be like sampling for example Volhynian Czechs and saying they represent all Czechs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechs_in_Ukraine

But Polish presence in Estonia dates back to the 1500s, older than Czechs in Volhynia.


Samples for studies should be selected by TA's Poles then results will be accurate of course.

Of course, moreover, I can supply my own sample + parents + grandmother and soon I'm going to test also my grandfather's brother. We are all from the oldest region of Poland where the Polish Kingdom emerged in the 900s, so we are "the most Polish" and our DNA should be considered as Polish reference (not some fringe north-eastern Polish groups from Estonia).

And unlike Czechs, who are all one big "inbred" family, Poles are very diverse and Polish communities used to be scattered across all of Central and Eastern Europe before WW2 (while nearly all Czechs lived in their small Czech Crater and never migrated).

Read my new signature for example.

=====

Czech Crater (Polish: Kotlina Czeska, I'm not sure if this English translation is correct?):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Crater

[Jana]

Majority of Polish samples are from Warsaw.

[Peterski]

Majority of Polish samples are from Warsaw.

If I remember correctly, they used 7 Warsaw/Mazovia samples and 11 from Estonia.

The map shows Warsaw (I think so) and Davidski also says they are from Warsaw.

But Supplementary Material gives their geographical coordinates as slightly different:

In Supplemental File 1, sheet 4/5, coordinates are listed as 52.9743978146, 19.6763955101

It is Mazovia but not Warsaw: https://www.google.pl/maps/place/52°58'27.8"N+19°40'35.0"E/@52.9743978,19.5363198,11z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d52.9743978!4d19.6763 955?hl=en

In a PCA, they plot very close to non-academic Mazovians I found on GEDmatch:

Mazovia1 = average of 31 Mazovians from GEDmatch (various parts of Mazovia)
Mazovia2 = average of 7 Warsaw Poles from Behar and Kuschniarevich studies

https://i.imgur.com/Vwk3mLW.png

^^^
This is a PCA graph (based on Eurogenes K36 results) superimposed on a map.

[Peterski]

My Mazovian sample from GEDmatch is actually a little bit more eastern-shifted than this academic Warsaw sample. But in my sample North-East Mazovians (around Łomża) are a bit over-represented. Łomża is now in Podlaskie Voivodeship but historically it is part of Mazovia not Podlachia.

[Magnolia]

Here, we characterize genetic variation in all extant ethnic groups speaking Balto-Slavic languages by analyzing mitochondrial DNA (n = 6,876), Y-chromosomes (n = 6,079) and genome-wide SNP profiles (n = 296), within the context of other European populations.

How many Polish samples were included into the study? If they used samples from Estonia - who were this people - an old Polish minority that is heavily mixed with Estonians? Why they did that? Did Estonian researchers want to prove that Estonians and Poles are close to each other or what? It makes no sense to me, even more when results look like this:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=large&id=10.1371/journal.pone.0135820.g002

Of course only some Poles from one region of Poland are true Poles. The rest are not Poles, of course.

[Pubiczar]

Montenegrins more distant to Serbs than Macedonians are??
Not very reliable study unless those Montenegrins are actually Albanians from Montenegro!

[Leto]

Too much BS in this thread. I also think that the Northern Russian samples are not representative. And Northwestern Russia is (traditionally) different from Northeastern, so they should go separately. As for Southern Russia, keep in mind that the lands to the south of Tula and Ryazan were virtually uninhabited until the mid 1600s or so and were populated by peasants from the Center (Moscow, Kaluga, Ryazan, Vladimir, etc.) and also by who we now call Ukrainians. The Ukrainian presence was especially strong to the south of Voronezh. Nowadays these differences are significantly blurred after decades of population movement of the 20th century.

[Proto-Shaman]

This map is complete bullshit, the hungarian mtdna is clearly european:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_mtdna_haplogroups_frequency.shtml

Sweetheart, I showed you medieval Hungarian mtDNA ;)

btw. Arpad was Turkic R1a Z93 ;)

[Jana]

Montenegrins more distant to Serbs than Macedonians are??
Not very reliable study unless those Montenegrins are actually Albanians from Montenegro!

Obviously not, since Serbs are closest to Montenegrins but they are not so close to anyone surrounding them.
It looks like case of genetic drift like in Irish travellers compared to rest of Irish population.

[Proto-Shaman]

This looks like haplogroup frequencies to me.

why should it? lol

[Jana]

why should it? lol

East + West Slavic = R1a
South Slavic = I2a
North Russian = N1c

[Proto-Shaman]

East + West Slavic = R1a
South Slavic = I2a
North Russian = N1c

autosomal dna reflecting different haplogroup origins. do you mean this?

[Leto]

East + West Slavic = R1a
South Slavic = I2a
North Russian = N1c
N1c is also Baltic. In Belarus and in Western Russia it reaches 10%. In Central Russia even 15% or so.

[Jana]

autosomal dna reflecting different haplogroup origins. do you mean this?

I mean that it's rather Y DNA similarity map than auDNA.

South Slavic autosomal doesn't make sense, because:

Most South Slavs are separated from the rest of the Balto-Slavic populations and form a sparse group of populations with internal differentiation into western (Slovenians, Croatians and Bosnians) and eastern (Macedonians and Bulgarians) regions of the Balkan Peninsula with Serbians placed in-between. The mean population pairwise genetic distances for South Slavs are comparable or higher to the ones for East Slavs despite the smaller region within the Balkan Peninsula that they occupy. Furthermore, Slovenians lie close to the non-Slavic-speaking Hungarians, whereas eastern South Slavs group is located together with non-Slavic-speaking but geographically neighboring Romanians and, to some extent, with Greeks.

[Peterski]

How many Polish samples were included into the study? If they used samples from Estonia - who were this people - an old Polish minority that is heavily mixed with Estonians? Why they did that? Did Estonian researchers want to prove that Estonians and Poles are close to each other or what?

They used old Polish minority (present in Estonia since 1561 when Poland acquired Southern and Central Estonia - Poland ruled that land until 1622 and some ethnic Poles stayed there under Swedish rules after 1622 and now they claim Polish ancestry). These Poles from Estonia have Siberian admixture, unlike Poles in Poland (except for the ones mixed with Polish Tatars):

http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2015/09/finno-ugric-poles-in-kushniarevich-et.html

https://i.imgur.com/ODm57oX.png


Of course only some Poles from one region of Poland are true Poles. The rest are not Poles, of course.

They are true Poles but they don't live in Poland, they are mixed with their "hosts":

Poles from all regions are "equally true", but my region is the oldest part of Poland:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?257867-DNA-from-Early-Medieval-Pozna%26%23324%3B-900-1200


Bones of Early Medieval inhabitants of Poznań (900s-1100s) were sent for anthropological and DNA tests:

http://poznan.wyborcza.pl/poznan/7,36001,23837486,we-wczesnym-sredniowieczu-na-srodce-istnialy-dwa-cmentarze.html?disableRedirects=true

Poznań was - next to Gniezno - among the most important political centers of the Early Polish Kingdom:

https://i.imgur.com/vsQXv3L.png

https://i.imgur.com/WKuungp.png

Oldest urban centers of Poland, cities with a history of at least 1000 years. Diocesan capitals in year 1000 AD (Gniezno, Poznań, Cracow, Wrocław, Kołobrzeg) are marked with crosses. Four main garrisons of the Polish army in year 1000 AD according to Gallus Anonymus (Gniezno, Poznań, Włocławek, Giecz) marked with red. Borders of Poland at the time of the Congress of Gniezno. Based on Andrzej Buko, "Archeologia Polski Wczesnośredniowiecznej" (English edition: "The Archaeology of Early Medieval Poland"), Warsaw 2011:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Oldest_urban_centers_of_Poland.png

Presumed borders of the oldest Piast realm (T. Jasiński, "Początki Polski w nowym świetle", 2007):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?246542-Przemys%26%23322%3Baw-s-City-Pozna%26%23324%3B

https://i.imgur.com/3hTOHfv.png

King Przemysł II, during his reign the capital city of Poland was in Poznań for the last time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przemysł_II

https://i.imgur.com/wuYrCLn.png

I'm not denying any culturally Polish group the right to call themselves Polish, OFC.

[Jana]

...

From the study:

Compared to the East Slavs, the West Slavs are more differentiated. In particular, Czechs and to a lesser extent also Slovaks , are shifted towards Germans and other West Europeans, whereas Poles either overlap or lie close to East Slavs

[Magnolia]

How many polish samples were used?

[Proto-Shaman]

I mean that it's rather Y DNA similarity map than auDNA.

South Slavic autosomal doesn't make sense, because:
The maps are auDNA maps. The South-Slavic cluster makes quite a lot sense, it's proving the Romance-Slavic development from Proto-Indo-European. On the other hand Balto-Slavic is not a guaranteed language group, there are still debates in linguistics.

[Jana]

The maps are auDNA maps. The South-Slavic cluster makes quite a lot sense, it's proving the Romance-Slavic development from Proto-Indo-European. On the other hand Balto-Slavic is not a guaranteed language group, there are still debates in linguistics.

South Slavs are highly heterogenous genetically.

[Ülev]

^^ Yugoslavia in one word, lol

[Mikula]

I expected that Slovaks will be close to Czechs, but I am surprized that Croats are close to us in the same level like Slovaks, and more than Poles and Sorbs

[Mikula]

Interesting how Montenegrins show relative genetic isolation compared to their neighbours.

Sorbs even more

[Dukagjini]

Hes full of crap dude. I have seen Southern Albanians get 4-5 stars in Montenegro. Montenegrins did not go that far south...

A good many Montenegrin samples on 23andme are from East Montenegro, so Albanian connection is obvious.

Don't most Albanians get 5 stars Montenegro? I dont think ive seen an Albo without at least 4-5 stars montenegro. Anyway those IBD dots don't show components.

[Jana]

I expected that Slovaks will be close to Czechs, but I am surprized that Croats are close to us in the same level like Slovaks, and more than Poles and Sorbs

Me too. But for us Bosnians and Serbs come closer than Slovenes/Czechs. On the other hand Sorbs are known to be quite purely Slavic population, with less western admixture compared to Czechs.

[Dragoon]

Haplogroup I2a1b-L621 is Balkan. Came in 500-800ad there.
(CTS10228, CTS2180). But its origins are of course thousands of years.

N1c L392, L1026 is Finno-Ulgric
CTS2929 is Balto-Finnic
but origins of N1c are ancient too.

R1a M458: R1a L260 is West Slavic and CTS11962
then Z280 CTS1211 is protoslavic
z280 z92 is balto-slavic

all modern slavic countries mixture of haplogroups
yes? no?

[Peterski]

If you want to find genetically the "most typical" Poles then you will find them between Cracow and Sandomir, in this area, called Lesser Poland. This area has been the most densely populated part of Poland since around year 1700. Southern Poles are the most numerous, more than Mazovians and Greater Poles.

Mazovians received significant admixture from Balts (including Old Prussians, Yotvingians, Lithuanians, etc.). They also migrated to Belarus and many Belarusians today have partially Polish - specifically mostly Mazovian - ancestry.

[Pribislav]

But still it would mean that Montenegrins mixed. Btw certain clans from Brda have Albanian paternal origin but have been Slavicized so in their cases they have Albanian blood. Anyways the Monetengrin admix in Albanians isn't even a major thing, it only occurred in certain areas and certain clans

From Brda maybe Bjelopavlići (E-V13) have Albanian paternal origin. According to legends founder of Bjelopavlići was Albanian Bard Pal (white Paul), or Bijeli Pavle in Serbian.
Bogićevci-Moračani have a legend of Albanian (Malsor) origin. According to that legend founder of Moračani-Bogićevci was Bogić who was Albanian/Malsor. Moračani-Bogićevci are R1b-U152, and from what I know they don't have matches among Malsors. Bogić is Slavic name, and it's weird that he was Albanian (Malsor) and had Slavic name.

Šestani Albanians from Bar area are mostly montenegrized in the last 100 years.

[Dukagjini]

From Brda maybe Bjelopavlići (E-V13) have Albanian origin. According to legends founder of Bjelopavlići was Albanian Bard Pal (white Paul) are Bijeli Pavle in Serbian.
Bogićevci-Moračani have a legend of Albanian (Malsor) origin. According to that legend founder of Moračani-Bogićevci was Bogić who was Albanian/Malsor. Moračani-Bogićevci are R1b-U152, and from what I know they don't have matches among Malsors. Bogić is Slavic name, and if it's weird that he was Albanian (Malsor) and had Slavic name.

Šestani Albanians from Bar area mostly montenegrized in the last 100 years.

I am a Shestani Albanian. We have not been montenegrized. Maybe some but nowhere near a majority. Even those that are like pseudo slavic still know their albanian origins im sure.

[Pribislav]

I am a Shestani Albanian. We have not been montenegrized. Maybe some but nowhere near a majority. Even those that are like pseudo slavic still know their albanian origins im sure.

I know cases of montenegrized Šestani.
They slavized their surnames ande declared themselves as Montenegrins.

[Jana]

I know cases of montenegrized Šestani.
They slavized their surnames ande declared themselves as Montenegrins.

Šestani are present on my island as well, and they are one of those Albanian origin immigrants centuries ago I wrote about. They are fully assimilated for long time already.
Another surname of suposed Albanian origin on the island is Maglica.

[Dukagjini]

I know cases of montenegrized Šestani.
They slavized their surnames ande declared themselves as Montenegrins.

I see too, though I am sure they know they are Albanian deep down. Nearly all of the people of Shestani are Albanians like myself. But as you know it's not just Shestani, shestani is a sub-region of Kraj (where i too have origins), the whole region Skadarska Krajina.

[Pribislav]

Šestani are present on my island as well, and they are one of those Albanian origin immigrants centuries ago I wrote about. They are fully assimilated for long time already.

Arbanasi near Zadar are Šestani?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

On the other hand Balto-Slavic is not a guaranteed language group, there are still debates in linguistics.

Yes... But i am pessimistic about that will ever be solved. There are different opinions, today are mostly accepted those theories by Kortlandt, Derksen and Matasović, which suggests that proto-Balto-Slavic splitted into three branches; West Baltic (Prussian), East Baltic (Letto-Lithuanian) and Slavic. If that is correct, it means that proto-Baltic and proto-Balto-Slavic refers to the same thing, but also mean that Balts are paraphyletic group, which mean that proto-language of Baltic language is not only proto-language of this linguistic group (Baltic languages), but also of the linguistic groups which are not included in this group (Slavic languages). According to this, it is possible to rename Slavic to South Baltic (at the begining), but it would be just nomenclature and terminological substitution where proto-Balto-Slavic = proto-Baltic. Those are the latest studies about this issue. Lithuanians and Latvians usually like to claim that "Balts" were formed as ethnicity in the time -3000 years BC which i honestly don't believe. But whatever, the question is still open, and there are many hypotheses.

[Dukagjini]

Arbanasi near Zadar are Šestani?

Yes they came from the villages of Livari (Ljare), Pod, and Brisk.

[Jana]

Arbanasi near Zadar are Šestani?

No. Šestani is one of traditional surnames of my island, and they are present on it for centuries. But in book about origin of islanders it is written few families have Albanian and Italian origin, and Šestani are listed among them.
Individual migrations came from Italy and Venetian Albania but absolute majority of families are Slavic by roots.

[michal3141]

Some Poles from this study/paper seem to have more Siberian admixture (here in yellow) than expected. I guess these samples must correspond to Estonian Poles:

79999

PS: Balts (indicated by blue arrows) seem to be the purest Europeans ;)

[Run-time]

Too much BS in this thread. I also think that the Northern Russian samples are not representative. And Northwestern Russia is (traditionally) different from Northeastern, so they should go separately. As for Southern Russia, keep in mind that the lands to the south of Tula and Ryazan were virtually uninhabited until the mid 1600s or so and were populated by peasants from the Center (Moscow, Kaluga, Ryazan, Vladimir, etc.) and also by who we now call Ukrainians. The Ukrainian presence was especially strong to the south of Voronezh. Nowadays these differences are significantly blurred after decades of population movement of the 20th century.
Central Russians are also not representative. In their composition included the Northeastern Russian Kargopol and Unzhi. Shameful work. Northeastern Russians have a maximum of 5-10% of all Russians, but their genetics are set as a proxy for all Russians.

[Kelmendasi]

From Brda maybe Bjelopavlići (E-V13) have Albanian paternal origin. According to legends founder of Bjelopavlići was Albanian Bard Pal (white Paul), or Bijeli Pavle in Serbian.
Bogićevci-Moračani have a legend of Albanian (Malsor) origin. According to that legend founder of Moračani-Bogićevci was Bogić who was Albanian/Malsor. Moračani-Bogićevci are R1b-U152, and from what I know they don't have matches among Malsors. Bogić is Slavic name, and it's weird that he was Albanian (Malsor) and had Slavic name.

Šestani Albanians from Bar area are mostly montenegrized in the last 100 years.
The Piperi and Kuqi are also of Albanian origin paternally. The Bjelopavlici imo most probably do have Albanian origin based on Ydna and oral tradition. Through further testing maybe there will be Albanians that turn out to be U152, maybe his name was like Boga or something as Boga/Boge is a place in Malesia, Kelmend. Albanians took Slavic names because of Slavic influence as they were neighbors with Slavs, although not all took Slavic names. The Shestani Albanians from certain areas like Godinje have been Slavicized but certain villages still remain Albanian

[Jana]

Some Poles from this study/paper seem to have more Siberian admixture (here in yellow) than expected. I guess these samples must correspond to Estonian Poles:

79999

PS: Balts (indicated by blue arrows) seem to be the purest Europeans ;)

Indeed. One Croatian sample is highly atypical as well, and I see that sample used in all academic studies. He is probably Croat from Kosovo.

[Kelmendasi]

No. Šestani is one of traditional surnames of my island, and they are present on it for centuries. But in book about origin of islanders it is written few families have Albanian and Italian origin, and Šestani are listed among them.
Individual migrations came from Italy and Venetian Albania but absolute majority of families are Slavic by roots.
Im pretty sure that many of the Arbanasi originally came from the Shestani and Shkodra areas.

[Pribislav]

Most of Albanians which was assimilated by south Slavs became Bosniaks in Sanžak region (soutwestern Serbia). After Bosniaks Montenegrins absorbed the most Albanians.

Examples of Sanžak muslims who declared themselves as Bosniaks, but they still speak Albanian. Most of them have bosniakized surnames.

Halilović https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=5m17s
Salihović https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=5m59s
Salihović https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=6m46s
Šulić https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=7m30s
Hukić https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=10m11s
Barji https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=12m56s
Mujezinović https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=15m17s
Kuč https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=18m9s
Škrilelj https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=20m9s
Ademović https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=28m12s

+70% of Sandžak muslims have Albanian (Malsor) origin. Vast majority of them today declared themselves as Bosniaks.

[Dukagjini]

The Piperi and Kuqi are also of Albanian origin paternally. The Bjelopavlici imo most probably do have Albanian origin based on Ydna and oral tradition. Through further testing maybe there will be Albanians that turn out to be U152, maybe his name was like Boga or something as Boga/Boge is a place in Malesia, Kelmend. Albanians took Slavic names because of Slavic influence as they were neighbors with Slavs, although not all took Slavic names. The Shestani Albanians from certain areas like Godinje have been Slavicized but certain villages still remain Albanian

Godinje is not considered Shestani, although many have stayed there through tribal migrations and then eventually moved into Shestani. I do think it is true though that many Godinje people have indeed been slavicized.

[Dukagjini]

Most of Albanians which was assimilated by south Slavs became Bosniaks in Sanžak region (soutwestern Serbia). After Bosniaks Montenegrins absorbed the most Albanians.

Examples of Sanžak muslims who declared themselves as Bosniaks, but they still speak Albanian. Most of them have bosniakized surnames.

Halilović https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=5m17s
Salihović https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=5m59s
Salihović https://youtu.be/2PPX9diQKs0?t=6m46s
Šulić https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=7m30s
Hukić https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=10m11s
Barji https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=12m56s
Mujezinović https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=15m17s
Kuč https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=18m9s
Škrilelj https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=20m9s
Ademović https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=28m12s

+70% of Sandžak muslims have Albanian (Malsor) origin. Vast majority of them today declared themselves as Bosniaks.

This is true.

[Kelmendasi]

Godinje is not considered Shestani, although many have stayed there through tribal migrations and then eventually moved into Shestani. I do think it is true though that many Godinje people have indeed been slavicized.
Yh true, Godinje is now part of a Montenegrin clan territory iirc. Iirc the former Albanian families there now have become Orthodox and celebrate Slavas

[Leto]

Central Russians are also not representative. In their composition included the Northeastern Russian Kargopol and Unzhi. Shameful work. Northeastern Russians have a maximum of 5-10% of all Russians, but their genetics are set as a proxy for all Russians.
My mom is 100% Northeastern Russian - Kirov oblast (Western and Central parts). "Central Russia" is approximately what is today the Central Federal District. But Kargopol is not in the Northeast IMO. It's the Southwest of Arkhangelsk oblast
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Ru-ark-kargopolsky_loc.svg/424px-Ru-ark-kargopolsky_loc.svg.png

[Pribislav]

No. Šestani is one of traditional surnames of my island, and they are present on it for centuries. But in book about origin of islanders it is written few families have Albanian and Italian origin, and Šestani are listed among them.
Individual migrations came from Italy and Venetian Albania but absolute majority of families are Slavic by roots.

From Čapljina, I know.
They were Orthodox Serbs before migration to Zlarin from Čapljina. :) I have seen your and Devil's correspondence yesterday.

[Arborean]

Don't most Albanians get 5 stars Montenegro? I dont think ive seen an Albo without at least 4-5 stars montenegro. Anyway those IBD dots don't show components.

Yes they do. Many of the Montenegrin samples on 23andme are eastern Montenegro. especially the ones that match Albanians.

[Peterski]

Sorbs are known to be quite purely Slavic population

Apart from Sorbs which other parts of Germany can be quite purely Slavic?

I suggested the island of Rugen and Wendland in other threads in the past.

The former, although it lost its Slavic language relatively early on, it was due to a cultural process (no German colonization). The latter is where Slavic language continued to be spoken until the 1700s. But when I showed your their photos you claimed they look like typical North Germans.

[Jana]

From Čapljina, I know.
They were Orthodox Serbs before migration to Zlarin from Čapljina. :) I have seen your and Devil's correspondence yesterday.

I don't know what they were, but their surnames are non existant among Serbs or any other Croats for that matter.
Btw, our house has one of three most preserved Croatian interlace in entire country carved on stone, so I doubt it.

[Peterski]

I wonder why is nobody interested in Early Medieval Slavic DNA from Germany so far?

Slavic burials from 9th-11th century (radiocarbon-dated) with fully preserved skeletons:

https://www.wochenspiegel-web.de/autothumb/620x400/Neue_Gleise_auf_alten_Wegen_slawisches.jpg

https://www.wochenspiegel-web.de/autothumb/620x400/Neue_Gleise_auf_alten_Wegen_slawisches.jpg

^^^ Radiocarbon dating:

https://s14.postimg.cc/qc68brtht/Screen_Hunter_2341_Apr._23_10.10.jpg

The burial site is in Niederwünsch near Leipzig.

They should be similar to modern Sorbs (unless Sorbs are heavily German-admixed):

https://s14.postimg.cc/5fa074awh/Screen_Hunter_2342_Apr._23_10.15.jpg

[Jana]

Sorbs do seem isolated as well, but Czechs and Ukrainians are closest to them (equally), followed by Poles.

[Peterski]

Czechs and Ukrainians are closest to them (equally), followed by Poles.

How many times should I repeat that they used only North-Eastern Poles in this study?

Sorbs are closest to Central Poles based on Eurogenes K36 and MDLP K23b comparisons. However, there are two Sorbian groups (technically they are two ethnicities not one, because they speak two languages) - Upper Sorbs and Lower Sorbs. And I don't think they tried to make a distinction between these groups.

[Pribislav]

I don't know what they were, but their surnames are non existant among Serbs or any other Croats for that matter.
Btw, our house has one of three most preserved Croatian interlace in entire country carved on stone, so I doubt it.

Surmames are prone to changing and have regional variations.

For example among Vojvodinian Serbs are often surnames which ended with ov, ski, čki, in (exm. Boškov, Rajkov, Beljanski, Dunđerski, Kanački, Bogovački, Milin, Savin). That types of surnames among Serbs exist only in Vojvodina.

There are a bunch of surmames among Krajina Serbs wich does not exist in other regions where Serbs live, not even in Herzegovina.

Some surnames are typical for sourthern Serbs and exist only in southern Serbia, and not in the other regions where Serbs live.

[Mikula]

On the other hand Sorbs are known to be quite purely Slavic population, with less western admixture compared to Czechs.

Perhaps are Sorbs genetically drifted (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift), due the small number of its population

[Peterski]

MDLP K23b calculator on GEDmatch:

Lusatian Sorbs (average):

European_Hunters_Gatherers 53.33
Caucasian 27.32
European_Early_Farmers 11.27
(...)

Central Polish (example):

European_Hunters_Gatherers 52.57
Caucasian 28.1
European_Early_Farmers 11.09
(...)

Western Polish (example1):

European_Hunters_Gatherers 48.00
Caucasian 28.53
European_Early_Farmers 14.71
(...)

Western Polish (example2):

European_Hunters_Gatherers 48.61
Caucasian 27.23
European_Early_Farmers 13.91
(...)

Grand Duchy of Lithuania, ethnic Polish (example):

European_Hunters_Gatherers 60.88
Caucasian 31.18
Near_East 2.59
European_Early_Farmers 2.45
(...)

[Token]

I wonder why is nobody interested in Early Medieval Slavic DNA from Germany so far?

Slavic burials from 9th-11th century (radiocarbon-dated) with fully preserved skeletons:

https://www.wochenspiegel-web.de/autothumb/620x400/Neue_Gleise_auf_alten_Wegen_slawisches.jpg

https://www.wochenspiegel-web.de/autothumb/620x400/Neue_Gleise_auf_alten_Wegen_slawisches.jpg
Do you have closer pictures of the skeletons?

[Peterski]

Do you have closer pictures of the skeletons?

No I don't, but I will ask one German user on another forum.

He posted close photos of Bronze Age Tollense skulls before.

[Run-time]

My mom is 100% Northeastern Russian - Kirov oblast (Western and Central parts). "Central Russia" is approximately what is today the Central Federal District. But Kargopol is not in the Northeast IMO. It's the Southwest of Arkhangelsk oblast
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Ru-ark-kargopolsky_loc.svg/424px-Ru-ark-kargopolsky_loc.svg.png
Kargopol is uniquely northern, it is part of the Volga-Vyatka anthropological zone of the northern Russians, but the central dialect. Speech is not an indicator of northness.
https://image.ibb.co/eAWOjp/image.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

[Token]

No I don't, but I will ask one German user on another forum.

He posted close photos of Bronze Age Tollense skulls before.

Yes, i've seen these ones. In my opinion, Coon exaggerated the 'Nordic' character of early Slavs. The Tollense skulls were probably still not fully differentiated Slavs but still, they were mostly brachycephalic.

[Peterski]

The Tollense skulls were probably still not fully differentiated Slavs but still, they were mostly brachycephalic.

Do you think that they were actually ancestors of Slavs?

[Token]

Do you think that they were actually ancestors of Slavs?

Yes, they were.

[Peterski]

Yes, they were.

That far to the north-west, at the Baltic Sea?

Based on their preliminary autosomal results, it is not impossible that they were. But we also need Y-DNA to confirm this. For example if none of them was R1a-M458, then in my opinion they could not be ancestors of Slavs because R1a-M458 almost certainly had to be present among Proto-Slavs.

[Token]

That far to the north-west, at the Baltic Sea?

Based on their preliminary autosomal results, it is not impossible that they were. But we also need Y-DNA to confirm this. For example if none of them was R1a-M458, then in my opinion they could not be ancestors of Slavs because R1a-M458 almost certainly had to be present among Proto-Slavs.

They shared too much drift with modern-day Slavs, these guys were too early for Proto-Slavic but they are surely going on the right direction.

[Peterski]

They shared too much drift with modern-day Slavs

But couldn't this be due to assimilation of some Pre-Slavic substrate by Slavs?Did they also share a lot of drift with South Slavs or just with North Slavs?

They could be some sort of extinct Balto-Slavs as well, maybe (I mean either some kind of Balts, or equally closely related to Balts and to Slavs).

Did they share drift also with modern Lithuanians & Latvians?

We need DNA from Medieval West Balts as well to compare:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?258818-Extinction-of-Old-Prussians

[Token]

But couldn't this be due to assimilation of some Pre-Slavic substrate by Slavs?Did they also share a lot of drift with South Slavs or just with North Slavs?

They could be some sort of extinct Balto-Slavs as well, maybe (I mean either some kind of Balts, or equally closely related to Balts and to Slavs).

Did they share drift also with modern Lithuanians & Latvians?

We need DNA from Medieval West Balts as well to compare:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?258818-Extinction-of-Old-Prussians
Based on F3, they didn't shared much drift with South Slavs and curiously they shared more drift with Basques vs Russians. Also, more drift shared with Kurgan Bell Beaker vs Corded Ware Germany.

[Lucas]

This looks like haplogroup frequencies to me.

Right! I see in Poland dot in Kociewie region which was analized only for Y-DNA.

[Not a Cop]

No I don't, but I will ask one German user on another forum.

He posted close photos of Bronze Age Tollense skulls before.


Do you have closer pictures of the skeletons?


Are thoose Tollense skulls? I have them saved on my PC.

[Token]

Are thoose Tollense skulls? I have them saved on my PC.
No, these are actual early Slavs from Eastern Germany.

[Lucas]

Are thoose Tollense skulls? I have them saved on my PC.
Medieval Slavic skulls from East-Germany from "A. Bach, Germanen-Slawen-Deutche, 1986"

https://s8.postimg.cc/eyuydn6dv/image.jpg

https://s8.postimg.cc/ka9uyld3n/VII.jpg

https://s8.postimg.cc/hhgne5zs3/image.jpg

https://s8.postimg.cc/ulm7qy7ab/image.jpg

[Peterski]

Right! I see in Poland dot in Kociewie region which was analized only for Y-DNA.

Yeah, why don't they analyze auDNA from all areas but only haplogroups in most areas?

[Run-time]

Vyatich, you convinced me.
There is no more ungrateful business than quarreling with your own people.
I think your new brown people will accept you. You're their problem now. You will never be "my people" to me.

[Lucas]

Yeah, why don't they analyze auDNA from all areas but only haplogroups in most areas?

Especially when this is exactly the same sample (blood or saliva). Just one more program started to analyse.

This idiot, Rebala, checked for Y-DNA such unique Polish groups like Kociewie, Kashubians, Kurpie. But autosomes? No...
Wrrr.. Instead we have Estonian Poles. Or Polish samples without specified region at all. Oh there is one Pole from Wroclaw in Pagani (LOL).

[Proto-Shaman]

Moračani-Bogićevci are R1b-U152, and from what I know they don't have matches among Malsors. Bogić is Slavic name, and it's weird that he was Albanian (Malsor) and had Slavic name.
U152 is also found in Bashkirs in high %'s.
https://i.imgur.com/nH4bcIW.gif

[Peterski]

Oh there is one Pole from Wroclaw in Pagani (LOL).

Also two ethnic Poles from Ukraine in Yunusbayev 2012 (samples UkrainePol25 and UkrainePol19). Or are they ethnic Ukrainians from Poland?

[Run-time]

Poles do not want to be Estonian? In vain!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH2ziCI5S8Y

[Peterski]

Poles do not want to be Estonian? In vain!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH2ziCI5S8Y


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBA0xDHZjko

[Magnolia]

Poles do not want to be Estonian? In vain!
I doubt that's the issue or that they would mind that. The study made them look to be close to Belorussians and Ukrainians, and there will be the main issue. :)
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=large&id=10.1371/journal.pone.0135820.g002

[Peterski]

Yes, they were.

When first available written sources about the area of modern Poland appear - during Classical Antiquity - Greek and Roman authors did not mention Slavic people living in Pomerania (the same area where Tollense is located). What happened after the Bronze Age?

Were those Bronze Age Proto-Slavs from Tollense (now in Vorpommern) later pushed to the east by some invaders?:

https://i.imgur.com/EyHgjzZ.png

This below is a map of tribes which either lived or could iive (location of some tribes is uncertain and speculative) on the territory of Poland in Roman times. Bear in my mind that ethnicity of most of these tribes is disupted, so maybe some of them were Slavic, it is not certain.

It is often assumed that the area achaeologically defined as Przeworsk Culture, was politically united, and part of the Lugian Federation (which was mentioned in Roman sources). The Lugian Federation was probably multi-ethnic but it had Germanic presence as well:

https://i.imgur.com/86sT5R1.png

Compared to historical-cultural regions of Poland (shaped in last 1000 years):

https://i.imgur.com/A2GESW3.png

Przeworsk Culture area and Wielbark Culture area during the 1st century AD:

http://i33.tinypic.com/zum612.jpg

Przeworsk Culture area and Wielbark Culture area during the 4th century AD:

http://i26.tinypic.com/316qgr8.jpg

Expansion of cultures associated with Goths (they are associated with Wielbark, not Przeworsk):

https://s15.postimg.cc/fl56t7dyz/g_tokeredete.jpg

==========

BTW:

In Europa Barbarorum (mods for Total War games), the Lugian Federation is one of factions:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?223191-Luguwa-ancient-Poland

https://i.imgur.com/dojnCKO.png

http://oi49.tinypic.com/34gx4s5.jpg

The Lugiones Faction Preview:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?413770-Preview-The-Lugiones

[Vlatko Vukovic]

That far to the north-west, at the Baltic Sea?

Based on their preliminary autosomal results, it is not impossible that they were. But we also need Y-DNA to confirm this. For example if none of them was R1a-M458, then in my opinion they could not be ancestors of Slavs because R1a-M458 almost certainly had to be present among Proto-Slavs.

Yes R1a-M458, but also R1a-Z280, but also I2a.

It is likely that Slavic language is from R1a-Z280 people? Or am i wrong? What was the language of R1a-M458, we don't have evidence.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

How Tollense skulls are related to Slavs, or even, to any group?

[Peterski]

How Tollense skulls are related to Slavs, or even, to any group?

We have not just skulls, but also autosomal DNA samples of several warriors who died in that battle around year 1250 BC.

Of course warriors were from opposing armies, we don't know which warrior fought for which side, but we have their DNA.

Results indicate that some warriors were related to Balto-Slavs, some to Germanics, and some to "Southerners" (maybe from Pannonia). The battle was fought in Tollense River Valley (Tollensetal), at that time borderland between Nordic Bronze Age and Lusatian cultures:

https://i.imgur.com/EyHgjzZ.png

Lusatian culture was Proto-Slavic according to late Polish archaeologist - prof. Kostrzewski - who discovered Biskupin:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc_KLJrD054

[Jana]

R1a M458 seems to be proto-West Slavic.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

We have not just skulls, but also autosomal DNA samples of several warriors who died in that battle around year 1250 BC.

Of course warriors were from opposing armies, we don't know which warrior fought for which side, but we have their DNA.

Results indicate that some warriors were related to Balto-Slavs, some to Germanics, and some to "Southerners" (maybe from Pannonia). The battle was fought in Tollense River Valley (Tollensetal), at that time borderland between Nordic Bronze Age and Lusatian cultures:

https://i.imgur.com/EyHgjzZ.png

Lusatian culture was Proto-Slavic according to late Polish archaeologist - prof. Kostrzewski - who discovered Biskupin:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc_KLJrD054

So, was it related to Balto-Slavs, or the proto-Slavs specifically? :D

[Peterski]

It is very tempting to call Tollense the first great battle between Germans and Slavs. :)

From Tollense 1250 BC, to Grunwald 1410 AD, to Tannenberg 1914, to Berlin 1945. :)

To be continued...

[Dick]

We have not just skulls, but also autosomal DNA samples of several warriors who died in that battle around year 1250 BC.



Z587704 WEZ16
Z270924 WEZ24
Z929969 WEZ35-2
Z119459 WEZ39
Z427747 WEZ56
Z962589 WEZ40
Z874261 WEZ48
Z394239 WEz51
Z272915 WEZ53
Z004446 WEZ54
Z967874 WEZ57
Z363666 WEZ59
Z848313 WEZ61
Z674381 WEZ63
Z716245 WEZ64-1
Z650609 WEZ71
Z366410 WEZ74
Z370531 WEZ77
Z594501 WEZ58
Z468191 Wez15
Z174495 WEZ83

these kits were deleted?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

R1a M458 seems to be proto-West Slavic.

I don't quite understand this term "proto-West Slavic", although i see it many times. Is there also proto-East Germanic? Slavic is linguistic group so i can't understand how the West Slavic have other origin than Eastern Slavs, for example. There is among them also R1a-M458, and there is among Western Slavs R1a-Z280.

[Jana]

Surmames are prone to changing and have regional variations.

For example among Vojvodinian Serbs are often surnames which ended with ov, ski, čki, in (exm. Boškov, Rajkov, Beljanski, Dunđerski, Kanački, Bogovački, Milin, Savin). That types of surnames among Serbs exist only in Vojvodina.

There are a bunch of surmames among Krajina Serbs wich does not exist in other regions where Serbs live, not even in Herzegovina.

Some surnames are typical for sourthern Serbs and exist only in southern Serbia, and not in the other regions where Serbs live.

Our surnames (mostly) do not end in -ić, but with -ov.

Vukov, Orlov, Tabulov, Tešulov, Štrelov, Gregov, and many others.

[Peterski]

these kits were deleted?

Western Spies deleted them, they could not stand evidence of Slavic presence that far west in 1250 BC.

[Peterski]

R1a M458 seems to be proto-West Slavic.

It is actually super common among East Slavs as well, especially in terms of absolute numbers.

Just like I2a-Din is common in both South and East Slavs, even though % is higher in the south.

[Pribislav]

U152 is also found in Bashkirs in high %'s.
https://i.imgur.com/nH4bcIW.gif

R1b-U152 in the Balkans is mostly from Romans.
Montenegrin clan which is U152 is probably of Vlach origin. U152 arrived to the Balkans most likely with Romans colonists. They mixed with pre-Romans population of Balkans and from that mix came people which are known as Vlachs (vulgar Latin speakers).

[Jana]

It is actually super common among Eastern Slavs as well.

Just like I2a-Din is common in both South and East Slavs.

Is R1a Z280 central Slavic lineage than, connecting us all ? Because it is present among all three Slavic branches in good amount.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

"The Polish archeologist Józef Kostrzewski, who starting in 1934 conducted extensive excavations of a Lusatian settlement of Biskupin, hypothesized that the Lusatian culture was a predecessor of later cultures which belonged to the early Slavs.[3] Modern archeologists, such as Kazimierz Godłowski and Piotr Kaczanowski, hold the view that at that time, the ethnic geography of Bronze Age central-Europe included peoples whose languages and ethnic identity we simply do not know."

Those are official informations, and i think there is no clear evidence that can be related to proto-Slavs in any way. If there is something which prove this, please post it.

[Dick]

Western Spies deleted them, they could not stand evidence of Slavic presence that far west in 1250 BC.

Seriously?

Wasnt there an ancient Illyrian kit that was deleted as well(probably same reason)

[Proto-Shaman]

R1a M458 seems to be proto-West Slavic.
Keep in mind ancestral Karachay-Balkar and Nogai M458 clades.

[Dick]

Keep in mind ancestral Karachay-Balkar and Nogai M458 clades.

Ok we get it. R1a is Turkic and watching and finding you etc

[Jana]

I don't quite understand this term "proto-West Slavic", although i see it many times. Is there also proto-East Germanic? Slavic is linguistic group so i can't understand how the West Slavic have other origin than Eastern Slavs, for example. There is among them also R1a-M458, and there is among Western Slavs R1a-Z280.

What I mean under proto-West Slavic is a mixture of proto-Slavic and East Germanic elements that came togheder after Slavs left their urheimat and divided into three branches. And it is quite natural to expect their language took additional influences after that.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Is R1a Z280 central Slavic lineage than, connecting us all ? Because it is present among all three Slavic branches in good amount.

What other could connecting us ?

This is almost sure that Slavic language is from Z280 people.

R1a-M458 language is most likely dead.

[Ülev]

Keep in mind ancestral Karachay-Balkar and Nogai M458 clades.

[Proto-Shaman]

Ok we get it. R1a is Turkic and watching and finding you etc
No, it isn't. It's actually Aryan.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Keep in mind ancestral Karachay-Balkar and Nogai M458 clades.

In reallity, we don't know anything about Turkic R1a-M458, but also not about Slavic R1a-M458.

[Jana]

Yes, lack of M458 in ancient samples is quite suprising.

[Proto-Shaman]

R1a-M458 language is most likely dead.
+1

[Vlatko Vukovic]

What I mean under proto-West Slavic is a mixture of proto-Slavic and East Germanic elements that came togheder after Slavs left their urheimat and divided into three branches. And it is quite natural to expect their language took additional influences after that.

Yes, but their urhemeit is not Lusatian culture, but the Zarubintsy? Is that scientific logically?

[Harkonnen]

Russian Arkhangelsk is the Russians in the eastern part of the Arkhangelsk region - Mezen and Pinega. Two eastern Pomors villages on the edge of a huge Arkhangelsk region. Even in the 17th century, it was known about their Finnish origin from the Russian fathers and Finnish mothers. The real Russians of the North are Kargopol, Unzha, Vologda and the surroundings of Arkhangelsk. They do not look like Finns. Here is what Balanovsky writes:

In particular, the northern Russians in the complex of signs of genogeography are most similar to the Balts (Latvians and Lithuanians) and Swedes [57], rather small genetic distances separates them from the Baltic-Finnish (Finns, Estonians, Karelians, Vepsians and Izhors) and some Permian-Finnish (Komi) peoples, as well as from many peoples of Central and Eastern Europe [57].

Thus, the revealed similarity of the gene pool of northern Russians with the gene pools of Central Europe and the north of Eastern Europe allows us to put forward a hypothesis about the preservation in these territories of an ancient paleo-European gene pool that is included in the composition of both northern Russians and the rest of the peoples of Northern Europe [57].

I'm so Fed up with this motherfucking Slav nonsense. Can you try to put up 2 coherent sentences together?

[Proto-Shaman]

R1b-U152 in the Balkans is mostly from Romans.
Montenegrin clan which is U152 is probably of Vlach origin. U152 arrived to the Balkans most likely with Romans colonists. They mixed with pre-Romans population of Balkans and from that mix came people which are known as Vlachs (vulgar Latin speakers).
I think they have Etruscan-Celtic connection.

[Jana]

Yes, but their urhemeit is not Lusatian culture, but the Zarubintsy? Is that scientific logically?

I am not into paleoarcheology, but I heard many consider some Prague ceramic culture or similar possible proto-Slavic.
But I would expect Slavic urheimat to be further east than that.

[Dick]

What other could connecting us ?

This is almost sure that Slavic language is from Z280 people.


That may be the reason why Slavic is a Satem language instead of Centum

[Harkonnen]

I am not into paleoarcheology, but I heard many consider some Prague ceramic culture or similar possible proto-Slavic.
But I would expect Slavic urheimat to be further east than that.

It's at the dumpster

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I am not into paleoarcheology, but I heard many consider some Prague ceramic culture or similar possible proto-Slavic.
But I would expect Slavic urheimat to be further east than that.

You mean most likely to Prague-Korchak culture. But i prefer to search also, not only Last period of proto-Slavic (Common Slavic), but also about Early proto-Slavic (until -1000) and Middle-proto-Slavic period (from -1000 to 1 AD). Prague-Korchak is from 5th century.

[Jana]

It's at the dumpster

You are mad because Russkies seized lot of Finno-Ugric territories, isn't it ? But Uralic Hungarians also seized Slavic lands in Panonnia, the most centraly located Slavic territory. And cut us off from our northern cousins.

[Pribislav]

I think they have Etruscan connection.

R1b-U152 in Italy is from Italics (IE people), which invaded Italy about 1000 BC from the north.

Etruscans came to Italy from Asia minor, they were most likely J2/E1b.
In ancient frescoes Latins and other Italics are always light pigmented often blonde and red haired. On the other hand Etruscans are swarthy and Anatolian/Levantine shifted in physical appearance.

[Peterski]

Yes, but their urhemeit is not Lusatian culture, but the Zarubintsy? Is that scientific logically?

It is known that Lusatian culture or its offshoots expanded east and participated in ethnogenesis of Zarubintsy culture.

[Harkonnen]

You are mad because Russkies seized lot of Finno-Ugric territories, isn't it ? But Uralic Hungarians also seized Slavic lands in Panonnia, the most centraly located Slavic territory. And cut us off from our northern cousins.

I do not give a shit. I'm mad because all I see is cabbage brained retards spreading ludicrous fucking nonsense 24h/day.

[Jana]

I do not give a shit. I'm mad because all I see is cabbage brained retards spreading ludicrous fucking nonsense 24h/day.

Who ?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

It is known that Lusatian culture or its offshoots expanded east and participated in ethnogenesis of Zarubintsy culture.

That's right. I agree. But isn't the Zarubintsy culture the proto-Slavic? That's the place where mixed Z280 people (from which is actually Slavic developed), M458 people, but also (probably) I2a people. I believe that R1a-M458 from Lusatian culture didn't spoke in language which could be called Slavic in modern sense.

[Peterski]

What other could connecting us ?

This is almost sure that Slavic language is from Z280 people.

R1a-M458 language is most likely dead.

R1a-M458 correlates more strongly with Slavic-speakers than R1a-Z280.

Most of Slavic groups have high levels of M458, but it drops significantly in frequency when you enter Baltic-speaking areas.

R1a-Z280 is Balto-Slavic, while R1a-M458 is just Slavic and not very Baltic.

Also, so far the number of known ancient R1a-M458 samples is ZERO.

On the other hand Bronze Age Lithuania and Latva had a lot of Z280.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

But indeed, the Lusatian culture practiced actually the cremation (burning dead people) and it was actually a practice of the Eastern Slavs from Kolochin culture. And, if i have good research, it was totally uncommon for the Baltic people (both East Baltic and West Baltic).

[Vlatko Vukovic]

R1a-M458 correlates more strongly with Slavic-speakers than R1a-Z280.

Most of Slavic groups have high levels of M458, but it drops significantly in frequency when you enter Baltic-speaking areas.

R1a-Z280 is Balto-Slavic, while R1a-M458 is just Slavic and not very Baltic.

Yes. But when you say Slavic, you mean on modern Slavic-speakers. And from who come the Slavic language? Z280 or M458 ?

I don't doubt that there was elements of post-Lusatian culture among the early Slavs.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

On the other hand Bronze Age Lithuania and Latva had a lot of Z280.

Yes, but the Balto-Slavs (let's put both groups together at the beginning) were also lived in Polesia, not in the Lithuania and Latvia. I believe that Balts moved there later.

[Peterski]

But indeed, the Lusatian culture practiced actually the cremation (burning dead people) and it was actually a practice of the Eastern Slavs from Kolochin culture. And, if i have good research, it was totally uncommon for the Baltic people (both East Baltic and West Baltic).

Luckily they did not burn their warriors who died in the battle of Tollense, so we can collect DNA from these bones.

[Peterski]

And from who come the Slavic language? Z280 or M458 ?

One proto-language = one haplogroup is a very retarded assumption.

You don't have to choose just one, Proto-Slavs had several haplogroups.

In case of Proto-Germanics, some people (including Maciamo) claim they had 6 haplogroups (I1-M253, R1b-U106 and one more subclade of R1b, two subclades of R1a, one subclade of I2a2) and nobody seems to have a problem with it.


That's right. I agree. But isn't the Zarubintsy culture the proto-Slavic? That's the place where mixed Z280 people (from which is actually Slavic developed), M458 people, but also (probably) I2a people. I believe that R1a-M458 from Lusatian culture didn't spoke in language which could be called Slavic in modern sense.

Maybe, but you can't be sure if the language comes from Z280 or M458.

What is certain is that Slavic is not a creole or a pidgin, so even if they emerged as a mix of several groups, one of those groups had to be dominant enough to impose their language.

It could be M458 actually, and Z280 could be assimilated Baltic-speakers.

So yeah, language of "Lusatians" could actually be ancestral to Slavic.

And by the way Lusatians could have both Z280 and M458. We even have one Bronze Age sample of Z280 from Germany already. And one Z280 from Bronze Age Poland - Gustorzyn. Unfortunately those were subclades which are rare today.

But definitely Lusatians could be a mix of M458 and Z280.

Who knows, maybe even I2a-Din was there.

[Crimean]

I think your new brown people will accept you. You're their problem now. You will never be "my people" to me.
It is certainly sad, but it is necessary to learn to live with this somehow.

[Peterski]

Based on F3, they didn't shared much drift with South Slavs and curiously they shared more drift with Basques vs Russians. Also, more drift shared with Kurgan Bell Beaker vs Corded Ware Germany.

But this was calculated for average as a group. We need data for each warrior separately.

They were not an ethnically homogeneous group, so you can't just average their results.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Maybe, but you can't be sure if the language comes from Z280 or M458.

What is certain is that Slavic is not a creole or a pidgin, so even if they emerged as a mix of several groups, one of those groups had to be dominant enough to impose their language.

It could be M458 actually, and Z280 could be assimilated Baltic-speakers.

So yeah, language of "Lusatians" could actually be ancestral to Slavic.

And by the way Lusatians could have both Z280 and M458. We even have one Bronze Age sample of Z280 from Germany already. And one Z280 from Bronze Age Poland - Gustorzyn. Unfortunately those were subclades which are rare today.

But definitely Lusatians could be a mix of M458 and Z280.

Who knows, maybe even I2a-Din was there.

It is today mostly accepted by linguists that Slavic and Baltic survived a common period development?! Now when i see Balts, i see N1c1 among them and R1a-Z280. Other is minority. Since N1c1 is Uralic and not Indo-European, what can i assume other? That the Baltic languages come from the Z280 (or pred-Baltic, whatever). I don't relate haplogroups with the languages (as for fact). But it is what you get by present-day statistics.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

They shared too much drift with modern-day Slavs, these guys were too early for Proto-Slavic but they are surely going on the right direction.

Is it known what they shared with Slavs, and did they share also this with the Balts?

[Token]

But this was calculated for average as a group. We need data for each warrior separately.

They were not an ethnically homogeneous group, so you can't just average their results.


Is it known what they shared with Slavs, and did they share also this with the Balts?

Welzin samples plotted on Davidski's Northern Europea PCA. According to him, 'I designed this PCA with the sole purpose of using Balto-Slavic-specific genetic drift to differentiate Slavs from Germans ... I can assure you, people who don't harbor significant Slavic ancestry never cluster in this part of the plot'.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-EbYlWXbGAjw/WhqJc3mhqRI/AAAAAAAAGSs/KPBmITJiZaos4v-R3231K5wNVaAtKzF_ACLcBGAs/s1600/Tollense_Valley_warrirors_PCA.png

Note that some individuals cluster closer to modern Germanic speakers. Maybe Peterski is correct and Tollense was a conflict between pre-Proto-Germanic speakers from Nordic BA and Balto-Slavs from Lusatian?

[Peterski]

Now when i see Balts, i see N1c1 among them and R1a-Z280. Other is minority. Since N1c1 is Uralic and not Indo-European, what can i assume other? That the Baltic languages come from the Z280 (or pred-Baltic, whatever). I don't relate haplogroups with the languages (as for fact). But it is what you get by present-day statistics.

Out of sampled Bronze Age Balts, all were R1a, and none of them was M458 (many were Z280). N1c appears in Baltic states during the Early Iron Age (I suppose they were the ones who introduced iron-smelting technology there).

About Estonia (but the same applies to Latvia & Lithuania):

"This interdisciplinary project deals with the studies of temporal population dynamics of the eastern coast of the Baltic Sea, in the territory of present-day Estonia. We use the skeletal material from Estonian archaeological collections to characterize the genetic structure of the population in time series starting from the earliest layers of lithic cultures to the contemporary population. The sample consisted of 72 individuals – 24 from the Bronze Age stone-cist graves, 13 from the Iron Age tarand-graves and 35 from the Medieval rural and town cemeteries. We produced low-coverage Illumina whole-genome sequencing data. The resulting data was analyzed in a context of modern Estonian and European genetic variation.

Hgs N1c and R1a are the two most common chrY hgs among modern Estonians. While we have previously found that hg R1a appears in Estonia together with Corded Ware culture (CWC) people, the arrival of hg N, which has been proposed to be connected with the arrival of Uralic languages to Europe, is yet to be studied. (...) We found that the Iron Age individuals do in fact carry chrY hg N1c while all 18 Bronze Age males belong to R1a. Furthermore, based on their autosomal data, all of the studied individuals appear closer to hunter-gatherers and modern Estonians than Estonian CWC individuals do."

^^^
So in Estonia there was no N1c before the Iron Age, but there was R1a. The same applies to Latvia-Lithuania which were also R1a in the Bronze Age.

[Run-time]

It is today mostly accepted by linguists that Slavic and Baltic survived a common period development?! Now when i see Balts, i see N1c1 among them and R1a-Z280. Other is minority. Since N1c1 is Uralic and not Indo-European, what can i assume other? That the Baltic languages come from the Z280 (or pred-Baltic, whatever). I don't relate haplogroups with the languages (as for fact). But it is what you get by present-day statistics.
Haplogroup I2 is not Indo-European.

[Run-time]

I'm so Fed up with this motherfucking Slav nonsense. Can you try to put up 2 coherent sentences together?
What do you not understand? The meaning of this! North-Eastern Russians do not originate from the true Finns, but from the paleo-Europeans, who are the basis of the Baltic, Baltic Finno-Ugric, Swedes and other Northern Europeans.

[Run-time]

I doubt that's the issue or that they would mind that. The study made them look to be close to Belorussians and Ukrainians, and there will be the main issue. :)
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=large&id=10.1371/journal.pone.0135820.g002
This study is very sloppy. For example, Russian Centers strongly deviated from the Russian South due to the fact That the Russian North entered The RUC sample. In fact, poles are also different. Poles of Estonia are not suitable as a standard of poles in Poland.

[Harkonnen]

What do you not understand? The meaning of this! North-Eastern Russians do not originate from the true Finns, but from the paleo-Europeans, who are the basis of the Baltic, Baltic Finno-Ugric, Swedes and other Northern Europeans.

Northeastern Russians are Slavs mixed with Tatars (Turks). That is the point.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Out of sampled Bronze Age Balts, all were R1a, and none of them was M458 (many were Z280). N1c appears in Baltic states during the Early Iron Age (I suppose they were the ones who introduced iron-smelting technology there).

About Estonia (but the same applies to Latvia & Lithuania):

"This interdisciplinary project deals with the studies of temporal population dynamics of the eastern coast of the Baltic Sea, in the territory of present-day Estonia. We use the skeletal material from Estonian archaeological collections to characterize the genetic structure of the population in time series starting from the earliest layers of lithic cultures to the contemporary population. The sample consisted of 72 individuals – 24 from the Bronze Age stone-cist graves, 13 from the Iron Age tarand-graves and 35 from the Medieval rural and town cemeteries. We produced low-coverage Illumina whole-genome sequencing data. The resulting data was analyzed in a context of modern Estonian and European genetic variation.

Hgs N1c and R1a are the two most common chrY hgs among modern Estonians. While we have previously found that hg R1a appears in Estonia together with Corded Ware culture (CWC) people, the arrival of hg N, which has been proposed to be connected with the arrival of Uralic languages to Europe, is yet to be studied. (...) We found that the Iron Age individuals do in fact carry chrY hg N1c while all 18 Bronze Age males belong to R1a. Furthermore, based on their autosomal data, all of the studied individuals appear closer to hunter-gatherers and modern Estonians than Estonian CWC individuals do."

^^^
So in Estonia there was no N1c before the Iron Age, but there was R1a. The same applies to Latvia-Lithuania which were also R1a in the Bronze Age.

Yes. And from that what you say is visible that Baltic languages come from Z280 (not literally, but in majority) and the linguists claim that Slavic and Baltic languages survived common period of development. That's why i relate languages to those haplogroup, which doesnt exclude that M458 participated among the proto-Slavs.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Northeastern Russians are Slavs mixed with Tatars (Turks). That is the point.

N1c Slavs. Fantastic.

[Run-time]

Northeastern Russians are Slavs mixed with Tatars (Turks). That is the point.
In the" North-East " Tatars never lived. Russian Pomors do not possess features of the Tatar population. Russian Pomors is a mixture of Slavs, Karelians and Komi.

[Run-time]

N1c Slavs. Fantastic.
N1c is a Baltic-Slavic haplogroup.

[Jana]

N1c is a Baltic-Slavic haplogroup.

It is not. But it was assimilated by Slavs at some point.

[Harkonnen]

It is not. But it was assimilated by Slavs at some point.

This goddamn Russki is fucking insane.

[Harkonnen]

In the" North-East " Tatars never lived. Russian Pomors do not possess features of the Tatar population. Russian Pomors is a mixture of Slavs, Karelians and Komi.

Komi have little bit Tatar admix.

At least these Pomors don't look Russian at all. The little pull from Finnish-Karelian cluster could be explained by Komi admix.

http://i63.tinypic.com/6zsbbn.png

[Harkonnen]

If that Russian North sample in Picture A is Pomor, you can see the same thing, it's some sort of Finnic mixed with Komi

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=large&id=10.1371/journal.pone.0135820.g002

[Run-time]

This goddamn Russki is fucking insane.
This is the data scientists geneticists. Russian North mostly Slavs, Balts mixed with minor admixture Baltic Finns (Estonians, Karelians, Vepsy, Izhora). The Russian North-East is the same Russian North only with an admixture of the Finno-Ugric Komi. In the North-East of the European part of Russia there have never been Tatars. Even in the Mongol period the territory was free.

[Run-time]

Komi have little bit Tatar admix.

At least these Pomors don't look Russian at all. The little pull from Finnish-Karelian cluster could be explained by Komi admix.

http://i63.tinypic.com/6zsbbn.png
Tatar admixture in Komi-this does not exist. It is a Siberian admixture, which is common for Finno-Ugric peoples and Tatars. In the East its more in the West less. These are the Suomi, and Karelians from their counterparts in Komi - a little more than Asia.

[Harkonnen]

This is the data scientists geneticists. Russian North mostly Slavs, Balts mixed with minor admixture Baltic Finns (Estonians, Karelians, Vepsy, Izhora). The Russian North-East is the same Russian North only with an admixture of the Finno-Ugric Komi. In the North-East of the European part of Russia there have never been Tatars. Even in the Mongol period the territory was free.

Are you like fucking blind, just look at the data that was presented to you. I know it's favorite past time of Russians do deny the Tatar influences but it does make it true.

[Run-time]

If that Russian North sample in Picture A is Pomor, you can see the same thing, it's some sort of Finnic mixed with Komi

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=large&id=10.1371/journal.pone.0135820.g002

Here we see that Pomors is located between Karelians and Komi :)

[Austrvegr]

Northeastern Russians are Slavs mixed with Tatars (Turks). That is the point.

Bullshit claim. Even (Volga) Tatars themselves are mostly Finno-Ugrians with just a little Turkic admixture.

[Austrvegr]

Are you like fucking blind, just look at the data that was presented to you. I know it's favorite past time of Russians do deny the Tatar influences but it does make it true.

You seem to somehow enjoy the idea that Finns for a century were ruled by Tatars. :)

[Run-time]

Are you like fucking blind, just look at the data that was presented to you. I know it's favorite past time of Russians do deny the Tatar influences but it does make it true.
You don't know the history. The territories occupied by the Tatar-Mongols are Central and southern Russia. Central and southern Russia at all not has nor Finnish nor what either the other blood except Slavic. Well, maybe in a very minor admixture. In the North there have never been Tatar-Mongols. there was free Novgorod Republic, uniting Slavs, Krivichi, Karelia(Chud) and Komi Republic(Chud zavolocheskaya)

[Run-time]

It is not. But it was assimilated by Slavs at some point.
It's complicated. Initially n1c had Balto-Slavs. If you take the point of view of the "woodland hypothesis" of the origin of the Slavs, N1c Slavs were originally. When the movement of the Slavs to the South-West N1c washed from the Slavs. She's gone to the Balkans.

[Jana]

It's complicated. Initially n1c had Balto-Slavs. If you take the point of view of the "woodland hypothesis" of the origin of the Slavs, N1c Slavs were originally. When the movement of the Slavs to the South-West N1c washed from the Slavs. She's gone to the Balkans.

Yeah right. N1c was assimilated to Russians who conquered former Finno-Ugric and Baltic lands.
It was never a haplogroup that participated in ethnogenesis of proto-Slavs, otherwise all three Slavic branches would have it.

[Run-time]

Bullshit claim. Even (Volga) Tatars themselves are mostly Finno-Ugrians with just a little Turkic admixture.
Harkonnen is afraid of the idea that he is a relative of the Russians. Harkonnen will have to reconsider all his political ideas.

[Run-time]

Yeah right. N1c was assimilated to Russians who conquered former Finno-Ugric and Baltic lands.
It was never a haplogroup that participated in ethnogenesis of proto-Slavs, otherwise all three Slavic branches would have it.
We don't know where the proto-Slavs came from. If they are from Belarus, The n1c originally Slavic haplogroup. Because this haplogroup appeared in Belarus before the Slavic language.

[Harkonnen]

Tatar admixture in Komi-this does not exist. It is a Siberian admixture, which is common for Finno-Ugric peoples and Tatars. In the East its more in the West less. These are the Suomi, and Karelians from their counterparts in Komi - a little more than Asia.

Tatar-Mongol admixture in Russians is a fact:

Within our dataset, only the Finnish, Hungarians and
Mordovians speak Finno-Ugric languages, the latter of which we group into two clusters (mordo13: 792
(564-975CE); mordo2: 558 (179-843CE)) and, together with the Russians (russi25: 913(754-1007CE))
and Chuvash (chuva16: 829 (627-940CE)) populations, infer admixture at approximately the same time
(500-900CE) involving Mongolian, Central European, and Finnish donors. As such, the Asian admixture in these groups is unlikely to be associated with the Mongolian
expansion described above and may instead be related to earlier Turkic movements, involving the Huns
and Avars [S?], but separate to the event inferred in the Finnish.

[Jana]

We don't know where the proto-Slavs came from. If they are from Belarus, The n1c originally Slavic haplogroup. Because this haplogroup appeared in Belarus before the Slavic language.

Only southern Belarus is originally Slavic land. And N1c is minimal there. Rest of Belarus was Baltic before it was Slavic, confirmed by toponyms, hydronyms and genetic promixity of modern Belarusians to Lithuanians.

[Harkonnen]

We don't know where the proto-Slavs came from. If they are from Belarus, The n1c originally Slavic haplogroup. Because this haplogroup appeared in Belarus before the Slavic language.

Dude, you are insane.

[Austrvegr]

Tatar-Mongol admixture in Russians is a fact:

Within our dataset, only the Finnish, Hungarians and
Mordovians speak Finno-Ugric languages, the latter of which we group into two clusters (mordo13: 792
(564-975CE); mordo2: 558 (179-843CE)) and, together with the Russians (russi25: 913(754-1007CE))
and Chuvash (chuva16: 829 (627-940CE)) populations, infer admixture at approximately the same time
(500-900CE) involving Mongolian, Central European, and Finnish donors. As such, the Asian admixture in these groups is unlikely to be associated with the Mongolian
expansion described above and may instead be related to earlier Turkic movements, involving the Huns
and Avars [S?], but separate to the event inferred in the Finnish.

And where does your quotation say about Tatar-Mongol admixture in Russians?

[Jana]

The most logical homeland of the Early Slavs- Eastern Poland, Northern Ukraine and southern Belarus.

[Harkonnen]

http://i66.tinypic.com/2v1vkid.png

Russians from Mezen are Pomors, and they look like Komi-Vepsians.

HGDP Russians are from Kargopol I think, and they look like regular Russians with little Komi admix.

[Harkonnen]

And where does your quotation say about Tatar-Mongol admixture in Russians?

It's there.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

N1c is a Baltic-Slavic haplogroup.

Baltic yes, Slavic no.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

It's complicated. Initially n1c had Balto-Slavs. If you take the point of view of the "woodland hypothesis" of the origin of the Slavs, N1c Slavs were originally. When the movement of the Slavs to the South-West N1c washed from the Slavs. She's gone to the Balkans.

Why then Poles, for example, have so little N1c ?

[Run-time]

Only southern Belarus is originally Slavic land. And N1c is minimal there. Rest of Belarus was Baltic before it was Slavic, confirmed by toponyms, hydronyms and genetic promixity of modern Belarusians to Lithuanians.
If so to think, then and haplogroup I not Slavic, too,. In the South of Belarus, during the formation of the Slavic language of this haplogroup was also very small.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

We don't know where the proto-Slavs came from. If they are from Belarus, The n1c originally Slavic haplogroup. Because this haplogroup appeared in Belarus before the Slavic language.

Southern Belarus, Northern Ukraine. Somewhere about Pripyat marshes and down from it.

[Harkonnen]

If so to think, then and haplogroup I not Slavic, too,. In the South of Belarus, during the formation of the Slavic language of this haplogroup was also very small.

0%, so super small.

[Jana]

If so to think, then and haplogroup I not Slavic, too,. In the South of Belarus, during the formation of the Slavic language of this haplogroup was also very small.

It is not. I2-dinaric reaches 25 percent in Polesia (S-Belarus-N-Ukraine) and is present in all Slavic speaking groups.
And it seems your fouding dynasty was I2a.

[Mikula]

Southern Belarus, Northern Ukraine. Somewhere about Pripyat marshes and down from it.

Černobyl area

[Run-time]

The most logical homeland of the Early Slavs- Eastern Poland, Northern Ukraine and southern Belarus.
Polesye - South of Belarus, Northern Ukraine, Western Russia. South-western Russian proxy the original Slavs.

[Peterski]

Welzin samples plotted on Davidski's Northern Europea PCA. According to him, 'I designed this PCA with the sole purpose of using Balto-Slavic-specific genetic drift to differentiate Slavs from Germans ... I can assure you, people who don't harbor significant Slavic ancestry never cluster in this part of the plot'.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-EbYlWXbGAjw/WhqJc3mhqRI/AAAAAAAAGSs/KPBmITJiZaos4v-R3231K5wNVaAtKzF_ACLcBGAs/s1600/Tollense_Valley_warrirors_PCA.png

Note that some individuals cluster closer to modern Germanic speakers. Maybe Peterski is correct and Tollense was a conflict between pre-Proto-Germanic speakers from Nordic BA and Balto-Slavs from Lusatian?

I ordered Northern Europe for my grandmother (Wielkopolska region Polish with some more distant Kashubian ancestry), and she plots right next to WEZ40. In general, we plot right next to the eastern-shifted group of Tollense warriors:

https://i.imgur.com/77XFCey.png

https://i.imgur.com/77XFCey.png

By the way - modern Lithuanians are autosomally more "western" than modern Latvians, but that was the case already in the Bronze Age. However, in the Bronze Age the difference was larger. Since the Bronze Age, Latvians became more western-shifted, while Lithuanians are still basically identical as they were back in the Bronze Age. I think this correlates well with Y-DNA frequencies (modern Latvians have a bit more of R1b, I1, etc. than modern Lithuanians).

[Run-time]

Baltic yes, Slavic no.
Balts and Slavs were once one. They are difficult to differentiate.

[Jana]

Polesye - South of Belarus, Northern Ukraine, Western Russia. South-western Russian proxy the original Slavs.

They certanly as well. But on average Russians are not most Slavic group genetically.

[Run-time]

Why then Poles, for example, have so little N1c ?
Who said that the Poles are the standard of the Slavs? They made that up themselves?

[Jana]

Balts and Slavs were once one. They are difficult to differentiate.

Both have R1a, but Balts have N1c and Slavs I2a. And most certanly proto-Slavs were more southern shifted than proto-Balts.

[Austrvegr]

It's there.

Highlight the words.

[Peterski]

Balts and Slavs (...) are difficult to differentiate.

Not true, look where Bronze Age Latvians plot, far away from Slavs:

https://i.imgur.com/77XFCey.png

https://i.imgur.com/77XFCey.png

Modern Balts are a bit more western-shifted. Bronze Age Lithuanians were already more western-shifted than Bronze Age Latvians. Modern Lithuanians are still more western than Latvians, but less so than back in the Bronze Age.

Modern Latvia has more R1b and I1 than modern Lithuania, but they are still autosomally more eastern. However, since the Bronze Age Latvians have received more of western admixture than Lithuanians, who are still basically the same autosomally today, as back in the Bronze Age.

[Run-time]

It is not. I2-dinaric reaches 25 percent in Polesia (S-Belarus-N-Ukraine) and is present in all Slavic speaking groups.
And it seems your fouding dynasty was I2a.
No. I2 appeared in Belarus late along with Dregovichi(southern migrants to Eastern Europe) who came from the Balkans. What dynasty? If I understand correctly, you mean the first princes of Russia? They were N1c.

[Harkonnen]

Balts and Slavs were once one. They are difficult to differentiate.

It wasn't in proto-Balts either.

[Jana]

No. I2 appeared in Belarus late along with Dregovichi(southern migrants to Eastern Europe) who came from the Balkans. What dynasty? If I understand correctly, you mean the first princes of Russia? They were N1c.

Please, don't be ridiculous :lol:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?258329-I2a1b-CTS10228-Rurikids


TL;DR - Vsevolod (and hence, his son Vladimir Monomah) of N1c1 Y-DNA are product of non-paternal event which happened between Yaroslav's wife, Ingergerd of Sweden, and king St. Olaf of Norway, while original Rurikids, preserved through families of Izyaslavich branch, such as princes of Turov, belong to I2a-CTS10228.

[Harkonnen]

No. I2 appeared in Belarus late along with Dregovichi(southern migrants to Eastern Europe) who came from the Balkans. What dynasty? If I understand correctly, you mean the first princes of Russia? They were N1c.

These I2 enthuasiasts got into their heads Rurikids were I2 because some small illegitimate rurikoid branch happened to be I2

[Jana]

These I2 enthuasiasts got into their heads Rurikids were I2 because some small illegitimate rurikoid branch happened to be I2

Cosmoo is way more objective than most posters on this boards, and he does not care about anything Slavic.
I believe his judgement ten times than this Russian guy, who want to be most Slavic of us all and that is far from reality.
In the end, it is not he who came to this conclusion but Russians themself.

[Run-time]

They certanly as well. But on average Russians are not most Slavic group genetically.
Average? Russian is a great nation. 90% of Russians are southern, Central and North-Western Russians. In scientific articles often southern Russians place on equal with Northern Russians. It creates the illusion that Northern Russians are an equal population group with southern/Central Russians. This is a big mistake. The North is sparsely populated territory, there was practically no Slavic migration because agriculture there was difficult. 10% of all Russians live in the North of Russia. 90% of Russian live in the centre(genetically close to South) on the South, and in the Asian part of Russia(migrants from southern and Central Russia in General)Therefore to quantify the true Russian Slavs as a percentage. 90% of Russians are close to the prototype of the first Slavs. Russian are Belarusians, then the poles, then Ukrainians, then Central and South Slavs. However, Russians are not proud of their Slavic origin. The Slavs are mostly losers. Absolutely everything except Russian.

[Jana]

Average? Russian is a great nation. 90% of Russians are southern, Central and North-Western Russians. In scientific articles often southern Russians place on equal with Northern Russians. It creates the illusion that Northern Russians are an equal population group with southern/Central Russians. This is a big mistake. The North is sparsely populated territory, there was practically no Slavic migration because agriculture there was difficult. 10% of all Russians live in the North of Russia. 90% of Russian live in the centre(genetically close to South) on the South, and in the Asian part of Russia(migrants from southern and Central Russia in General)Therefore to quantify the true Russian Slavs as a percentage. 90% of Russians are close to the prototype of the first Slavs. Russian are Belarusians, then the poles, then Ukrainians, then the Laggards, Central and South Slavs. However, Russians are not proud of their Slavic origin. The Slavs are mostly losers. Absolutely everything except Russian.

If they were losers, we wouldn't speak Slavic languages. It is Finno-Ugrics and Balts that were historical losers in Russian territories, not Slavs.

[Run-time]

If they were losers, we wouldn't speak Slavic languages. It is Finno-Ugrics and Balts that were historical losers in Russian territories, not Slavs.
No. Not always the strong defeat the weak. The power of the Slavs in reproduction and obedience. Therefore, the Slavic languages came to the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria.

[Run-time]

In Russia won not Slavs. In Russia won the Northern Russian, which consisted of Finns, Scandinavians, Balts and Slavs.

[Run-time]

Not true, look where Bronze Age Latvians plot, far away from Slavs:

https://i.imgur.com/77XFCey.png

https://i.imgur.com/77XFCey.png

Modern Balts are a bit more western-shifted. Bronze Age Lithuanians were already more western-shifted than Bronze Age Latvians. Modern Lithuanians are still more western than Latvians, but less so than back in the Bronze Age.

Modern Latvia has more R1b and I1 than modern Lithuania, but they are still autosomally more eastern. However, since the Bronze Age Latvians have received more of western admixture than Lithuanians, who are still basically the same autosomally today, as back in the Bronze Age.
I do not think that the bronze age Latvians were Latvians and that they spoke the Baltic language

[Run-time]

It wasn't in proto-Balts either.
Dneprodvinsk culture(the Baltic States) 5th century. Wasn N1c wasn't N1c in Europe?

[Run-time]

Please, don't be ridiculous :lol:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?258329-I2a1b-CTS10228-Rurikids
Modern descendants of Rurik belong to different haplogroups, including I2a, R1a and N1c. The most numerous is N1c. Most scientists are inclined to N1c. I'll let you in on the secret. Haplogroup of the Y chromosome cannot be passed through the female line of the Swedish princesses. This haplogroup belonged to the Russian Prince Yaroslav, who inherited it from his father Svyatoslav, who inherited it from his father Igor and grandfather Rurik. I2 haplogroup of misfits of farmers and slaves. I2a have made it synonymous with the Slavs the word slave!

[Run-time]

Slav = slave =/= Russian

[Jana]

No. Not always the strong defeat the weak. The power of the Slavs in reproduction and obedience. Therefore, the Slavic languages came to the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria.

In case of Croatia, we were strong enough to defeat the Avars, who were known as feared warriors trough out entire Danubian region. It was a conquest by the sword, therefore it show the language did not arrive by mere accident. :D

[Jana]

Modern descendants of Rurik belong to different haplogroups, including I2a, R1a and N1c. The most numerous is N1c. Most scientists are inclined to N1c. I'll let you in on the secret. Haplogroup of the Y chromosome cannot be passed through the female line of the Swedish princesses. This haplogroup belonged to the Russian Prince Yaroslav, who inherited it from his father Svyatoslav, who inherited it from his father Igor and grandfather Rurik. I2 haplogroup of misfits of farmers and slaves. I2a have made it synonymous with the Slavs the word slave!

St. Olaf of Noway is a Swedish princess ? :P

[Run-time]

St. Olaf of Noway is a Swedish princess ? :P
It's a rumor and a false story. In any case, I2 has nothing to do with this.

[Run-time]

In case of Croatia, we were strong enough to defeat the Avars, who were known as feared warriors trough out entire Danubian region. It was a conquest by the sword, therefore it show the language did not arrive by mere accident. :D
Defeated Avar? Your ancestors were slaves to the Avars until they dissolved into you. I do not advise you to be proud of the Slavic past.

I don't belong to Slavs. I'm Russian. I speak Slavic, but I have the blood of a Northern European. Non-Serbian brown Dean reed with a huge nose, not round Polish-Slavic potatoes, in me flows the blood of ancient Rus, from which the earth shook and continues to shake.

[Jana]

Defeated Avar? Your ancestors were slaves to the Avars until they dissolved into you. I do not advise you to be proud of the Slavic past.

I don't belong to Slavs. I'm Russian. I speak Slavic, but I have the blood of a Northern European. Non-Serbian brown Dean reed with a huge nose, not round Polish-Slavic potatoes, in me flows the blood of ancient Rus, from which the earth shook and continues to shake.

Only in your fantasy darling. I descend from Croats who enslaved Avars and turned them to our Slaves.


“But the Croats at that time were dwelling beyond Bavaria, where the Belocroats are now. From them split off a family of five brothers, Kloukas and Lobelos and Kosentzis and Mouchlo and Chrobatos, and two sisters, Touga and Bouga, who came with their folk to Dalmatia and found the Avars in possession of that land. After they had fought one another for some years, the Croats prevailed and killed some of the Avars and the remainder they compelled to be subject to them.

-De Administrando Imperio

[Run-time]

Avars and Slav for the usual work. Thus was formed the Slavic character.
https://image.ibb.co/mN7kh9/image.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

[Run-time]

Only in your fantasy darling. I descend from Croats who enslaved Avars and turned them to our Slaves.



-De Administrando Imperio
It was the end of the Avar Empire, when the Avars left one. The Russians also began to defeat the Mongols at the end of their existence, when the Mongols became weak and fragmented. Slavs are essentially slaves. Were, is, and will be. Only Russians have independent policy and history, independent from German hosts.

[Run-time]

I advise you to think why the word " Slav "is a synonym - "slave". Why Slavs in all wars fail? Why the Avars, the Huns, the Turks, the Germans enslaved the Slavs? Why did the Russians pull a history of all the Slavs? I'm tired of being a Slav. Some Slavs, like Serbs, hiding behind my name, get a historical bonus. Of course, Russians are not Slavs, Russian Finns and Balts! It's time to understand what Slavs are without Russians.

[Harkonnen]

The 8th century so called "Krivich" Long Barrow in Pskov had N1c1 in it. Finnic archaelogists consider these long barrows to have belonged to Finnics, Russians prefer Kriviches. Does the N1c1 settle the issue?

[Run-time]

The 8th century so called "Krivich" Long Barrow in Pskov had N1c1 in it. Finnic archaelogists consider these long barrows to have belonged to Finnics, Russians prefer Kriviches. Does the N1c1 settle the issue?
N1с with at Pskov Krivich it is norm. Krivichi this Balts + a minor component Western Slavs from Germany.

[Pribislav]

Avars and Slav for the usual work. Thus was formed the Slavic character.
https://image.ibb.co/mN7kh9/image.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

Hello Krivich!!! :crazy: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?21386-Krivich

[Pribislav]

It is not. I2-dinaric reaches 25 percent in Polesia (S-Belarus-N-Ukraine) and is present in all Slavic speaking groups.
And it seems your fouding dynasty was I2a.

I2a1b2a1 is present among all Slavs. That haplogroup is significant among Belarusians and Ukrainians.

On the other hand N1c is importans only for northern Russians, and not for other Slavs.

N1c is clearly Finno-Ugric marker which arrived among the Russians due to assimilation/russification Finno-Ugric people from 14th century to present day.

Northern Russian are more slavized Finno-Ugrics, than Slavs.

[Harkonnen]

N1с with at Pskov Krivich it is norm. Krivichi this Balts + a minor component Western Slavs from Germany.

In my opinion all of the Long Barrows were likely Finnic. It doesn't make much sense for the Long Barrows to spread from North to South if they had Slavic origins.

[Run-time]

I2a1b2a1 is present among all Slavs. That haplogroup is significant among Belarusians and Ukrainians.

On the other hand N1c is importans only for northern Russians, and not for other Slavs.

N1c is clearly Finno-Ugric marker which arrived among the Russians due to assimilation/russification Finno-Ugric people from 14th century to present day.

Northern Russian are more slavized Finno-Ugrics, than Slavs.
Population geneticist, doctor of science, Balanovsky:
Recent studies, which included a comprehensive analysis of Y-chromosome markers, mtDNA and autosomal markers, suggest a more pronounced similarity between northern Russians and the population of Northern Europe as a whole [57]. In particular, the northern Russians in the complex of signs of genogeography are most similar to the Balts (Latvians and Lithuanians) and Swedes [57], rather small genetic distances separates them from the Baltic-Finnish (Finns, Estonians, Karelians, Vepsians and Izhors) and some Permian-Finnish (Komi) peoples, as well as from many peoples of Central and Eastern Europe [57]. At the same time, the peoples of the Volga-Finnish group are removed from the entire European massif and from the northern Russians, which may indicate the absence of the previously assumed strong contribution of the Finno-Ugrian formation to the formation of the population of the Russian North.

Balts, Swedes, Baltic Finns - so look Northern Russians. Slavs? Slavs are a language community that has nothing to do with each other. Russians do not want to deal with Slavonic-speaking peoples. We are relatives of Ukrainians, Belarusians, Poles, but our relations go back to the pre-Slavic time.

[Run-time]

In my opinion all of the Long Barrows were likely Finnic. It doesn't make much sense for the Long Barrows to spread from North to South if they had Slavic origins.
Versions of the origin of barrows: 1. Slavic (aboriginal), 2. Baltic, 3. Finnish. I'm fine with any version of these three. The Northern Russians are a combination of these three ethnic groups. The very name Krivichi Baltic and some scientists see in them Balts.

[Run-time]

Hello Krivich!!! :crazy: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?21386-Krivich
Who's this?
https://image.ibb.co/b136qU/dbc9c52cae740d3bafc23853e1a4a8ec_i_1501.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

[Jana]

I advise you to think why the word " Slav "is a synonym - "slave". Why Slavs in all wars fail? Why the Avars, the Huns, the Turks, the Germans enslaved the Slavs? Why did the Russians pull a history of all the Slavs? I'm tired of being a Slav. Some Slavs, like Serbs, hiding behind my name, get a historical bonus. Of course, Russians are not Slavs, Russian Finns and Balts! It's time to understand what Slavs are without Russians.

Majority of Russians are Slavs. But it seems you are just speaking a language of your Slavic overlords.

[Pribislav]

Who's this?

Krivich is Banned Russian troll.

You are him, is not it? :)

[Run-time]

Krivich is Banned Russian troll.

You are him, is not it? :)
No, I don't know him. You look more like a Troll.

[Proto-Shaman]

R1b-U152 in Italy is from Italics (IE people), which invaded Italy about 1000 BC from the north.

Etruscans came to Italy from Asia minor, they were most likely J2/E1b.
In ancient frescoes Latins and other Italics are always light pigmented often blonde and red haired. On the other hand Etruscans are swarthy and Anatolian/Levantine shifted in physical appearance.
And R1b-U152 Indo-Europeans who stayed in Ural mountains speak Turkic. Nice LOGIC! :)

[Pribislav]

And R1b-U152 Indo-Europeans who stayed in Ural mountains speak Turkic. Nice LOGIC! :)

Because they were turkified.
Same as many Iranic which were turkified in central Asia, and on that way central Asian Turks got R1a-Z93.

[Proto-Shaman]

Because they were turkified.
Same as many Iranic which were turkified in central Asia, and on that way central Asian Turks got R1a-Z93.
These are well-known European fairy-tales. It became really boring. Turks came from Mars, right? :bored: