Populations and who they are closest to genetically (Global 25)

[Grace O'Malley]

Just putting some populations on here and who they are closest to genetically.

I'll start off with Ireland, of course.

1 Irish:Average Scottish Average 0.683
2 Irish:Average Orcadian Average 1.062
3 Irish:Average English Average 1.122
4 Irish:Average English_Cornwall Average 1.334
5 Irish:Average Shetlandic Average 1.39
6 Irish:Average Welsh Average 1.399
7 Irish:Average Dutch Average 1.589
8 Irish:Average Icelandic Average 1.69
9 Irish:Average Norwegian Average 1.95
10 Irish:Average Swedish Average 2.701
11 Irish:Average German Average 2.842
12 Irish:Average Belgian Average 3.076

English

1 English:Average English_Cornwall Average 0.661
2 English:Average Scottish Average 0.763
3 English:Average Orcadian Average 1.091
4 English:Average Irish Average 1.122
5 English:Average Dutch Average 1.302
6 English:Average Welsh Average 1.618
7 English:Average Shetlandic Average 1.804
8 English:Average Icelandic Average 1.955
9 English:Average German Average 2.205
10 English:Average Norwegian Average 2.222
11 English:Average Belgian Average 2.437
12 English:Average Swedish Average 2.652

French

1 French:Average French_East Average 1.349
2 French:Average Belgian Average 1.435
3 French:Average German Average 3.313
4 French:Average Spanish_Cataluna Average 3.381
5 French:Average Austrian Average 3.396
6 French:Average English_Cornwall Average 3.446
7 French:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 3.573
8 French:Average Spanish_Cantabria Average 3.576
9 French:Average English Average 3.58
10 French:Average French_South Average 3.676
11 French:Average Dutch Average 3.999
12 French:Average Spanish_Valencia Average 4.072

Germans

1 German:Average Austrian Average 1.685
2 German:Average Dutch Average 1.939
3 German:Average English Average 2.205
4 German:Average Belgian Average 2.266
5 German:Average English_Cornwall Average 2.347
6 German:Average Scottish Average 2.416
7 German:Average Orcadian Average 2.484
8 German:Average Welsh Average 2.56
9 German:Average Shetlandic Average 2.702
10 German:Average Swedish Average 2.74
11 German:Average Irish Average 2.842
12 German:Average Norwegian Average 3.01


I don't know how to use nMonte yet but just use a tool that does the same thing. I'll look at nMonte later and Global25 because these are the most advanced tools available for anyone interested in genetics.

I'll add some more later.

[Bobby Martnen]

So English are closer to Germans than Scandosluts. Nice.

[Grace O'Malley]

So English are closer to Germans than Scandosluts. Nice.

Well you can see what I mean about the Celtic/Germanic debate. I'll do the Welsh next. There's only 3 Welsh in the sample so it would be better if there were more.

Welsh

1 Welsh:Average Irish Average 1.399
2 Welsh:Average Scottish Average 1.474
3 Welsh:Average English Average 1.618
4 Welsh:Average Shetlandic Average 1.683
5 Welsh:Average English_Cornwall Average 1.697
6 Welsh:Average Orcadian Average 1.74
7 Welsh:Average Norwegian Average 1.832
8 Welsh:Average Dutch Average 1.865
9 Welsh:Average Icelandic Average 1.889
10 Welsh:Average Swedish Average 2.497
11 Welsh:Average German Average 2.56
12 Welsh:Average Belgian Average 3.167

[Bobby Martnen]

Well you can see what I mean about the Celtic/Germanic debate. It also shows the same as what the Irish DNA Atlas showed regarding the Insular Celts. The Irish and Scot are closer to the English than they are to the Welsh and the Welsh are closer to the English than they are to the Irish and Scots. I'll do the Welsh next.

Can you do the Pennsylvania Dutch? Or are they not an available population?

[Grace O'Malley]

Can you do the Pennsylvania Dutch? Or are they not an available population?

No there's no Pennsylvania Dutch I don't think there are any genetic samples of them. They have Dutch but no Danes as of yet.

The populations used are all from scientific studies.

[Bobby Martnen]

No there's no Pennsylvania Dutch I don't think there are any genetic samples of them. They have Dutch but no Danes as of yet.

The populations used are all from scientific studies.

The Pennsylvania Dutch are descended mostly from West/Southwest Germans, Alsatian Germans, and Swiss Germans, and most have about 5-10% British (usually Scottish, then English) admixture.

Despite the name, they have nothing in common with the Tulip Dutch.

[Grace O'Malley]

The Pennsylvania Dutch are descended mostly from West/Southwest Germans, Alsatian Germans, and Swiss Germans, and most have about 5-10% British (usually Scottish, then English) admixture.

Despite the name, they have nothing in common with the Tulip Dutch.

There is a large sample of Germans in this but they are all averaged which is what I've used above. Places like Spain are all split into different regions which makes it difficult to see what populations they are closest to other than themselves. :)

[Bobby Martnen]

There is a large sample of Germans in this but they are all averaged which is what I've used above. Places like Spain are all split into different regions which makes it difficult to see what populations they are closest to other than themselves. :)

The average German probably shifts slightly NE of SW Germans/PA Dutchmen.

[Grace O'Malley]

Portuguese

1 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Extremadura Average 1.473
2 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon Average 1.521
3 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Murcia Average 1.647
4 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha Average 1.682
5 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Andalucia Average 1.702
6 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Galicia Average 1.942
7 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Aragon Average 1.974
8 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Cataluna Average 2.008
9 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 2.05
10 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Cantabria Average 2.506
11 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Valencia Average 3.048
12 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Canarias Average 3.48
13 Portuguese:Average French_South Average 3.54
14 Portuguese:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 3.623
15 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Pais_Vasco Average 4.357
16 Portuguese:Average French Average 4.434
17 Portuguese:Average Basque_French Average 4.687
18 Portuguese:Average Basque_Spanish Average 4.815
19 Portuguese:Average Italian_Tuscan Average 4.823
20 Portuguese:Average French_East Average 4.969
21 Portuguese:Average Belgian Average 5.582

[Bobby Martnen]

Portuguese

Can you try the nightclub people next?

[Grace O'Malley]

Can you try the nightclub people next?

Ha can you be more specific? :) Are they Sicilians?

[Bobby Martnen]

Ha can you be more specific? :) Are they Sicilians?

Of course

[Grace O'Malley]

Of course

1 Sicilian_East:Average Sicilian_West Average 1.706
2 Sicilian_East:Average Italian_South Average 1.807
3 Sicilian_East:Average Italian_Abruzzo Average 2.073
4 Sicilian_East:Average Maltese Average 2.073
5 Sicilian_East:Average Ashkenazi_Jew Average 2.388
6 Sicilian_East:Average Italian_Jew Average 2.896
7 Sicilian_East:Average Greek_Crete Average 3.326
8 Sicilian_East:Average Sephardic_Jew Average 3.359
9 Sicilian_East:Average Italian_Tuscan Average 3.947
10 Sicilian_East:Average Greek Average 4.299
11 Sicilian_East:Average Albanian Average 4.719
12 Sicilian_East:Average Moroccan_Jew Average 4.95
13 Sicilian_East:Average Cypriot Average 5.318
14 Sicilian_East:Average Syrian_Jew Average 5.449
15 Sicilian_East:Average Greek_Central_Anatolia Average 5.852
16 Sicilian_East:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 5.873
17 Sicilian_East:Average Libyan_Jew Average 6.021
18 Sicilian_East:Average Tunisian_Jew Average 6.051
19 Sicilian_East:Average Druze Average 6.921
20 Sicilian_East:Average Bulgarian Average 7.024
21 Sicilian_East:Average Spanish_Andalucia Average 7.045
22 Sicilian_East:Average Lebanese_Druze Average 7.102
23 Sicilian_East:Average Turkish_Istanbul Average 7.13
24 Sicilian_East:Average Spanish_Extremadura Average 7.176
25 Sicilian_East:Average Lebanese_Muslim Average 7.204
26 Sicilian_East:Average Spanish_Canarias Average 7.279
27 Sicilian_East:Average Lebanese_Christian Average 7.312
28 Sicilian_East:Average Spanish_Murcia Average 7.328
29 Sicilian_East:Average Portuguese Average 7.357
30 Sicilian_East:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 7.461


1 Sicilian_West:Average Sicilian_East Average 1.706
2 Sicilian_West:Average Maltese Average 2.137
3 Sicilian_West:Average Italian_Abruzzo Average 2.203
4 Sicilian_West:Average Italian_South Average 2.279
5 Sicilian_West:Average Ashkenazi_Jew Average 2.662
6 Sicilian_West:Average Italian_Tuscan Average 3.56
7 Sicilian_West:Average Italian_Jew Average 3.572
8 Sicilian_West:Average Greek_Crete Average 3.957
9 Sicilian_West:Average Greek Average 3.987
10 Sicilian_West:Average Sephardic_Jew Average 3.993
11 Sicilian_West:Average Albanian Average 4.553
12 Sicilian_West:Average Moroccan_Jew Average 4.924
13 Sicilian_West:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 5.223
14 Sicilian_West:Average Spanish_Andalucia Average 6.013
15 Sicilian_West:Average Spanish_Extremadura Average 6.02
16 Sicilian_West:Average Syrian_Jew Average 6.12
17 Sicilian_West:Average Spanish_Canarias Average 6.143
18 Sicilian_West:Average Libyan_Jew Average 6.248
19 Sicilian_West:Average Spanish_Murcia Average 6.258
20 Sicilian_West:Average Cypriot Average 6.259
21 Sicilian_West:Average Portuguese Average 6.281
22 Sicilian_West:Average Bulgarian Average 6.387
23 Sicilian_West:Average Tunisian_Jew Average 6.401
24 Sicilian_West:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 6.49
25 Sicilian_West:Average Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha Average 6.651
26 Sicilian_West:Average Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon Average 6.728
27 Sicilian_West:Average Spanish_Galicia Average 6.729
28 Sicilian_West:Average Macedonian Average 6.886
29 Sicilian_West:Average Greek_Central_Anatolia Average 6.909
30 Sicilian_West:Average Romanian Average 7.098
31 Sicilian_West:Average Spanish_Valencia Average 7.118

[Grace O'Malley]

1 Scottish:Average Irish Average 0.683
2 Scottish:Average Orcadian Average 0.716
3 Scottish:Average English Average 0.763
4 Scottish:Average English_Cornwall Average 1.044
5 Scottish:Average Dutch Average 1.163
6 Scottish:Average Shetlandic Average 1.374
7 Scottish:Average Welsh Average 1.474
8 Scottish:Average Icelandic Average 1.613
9 Scottish:Average Norwegian Average 1.82
10 Scottish:Average Swedish Average 2.406
11 Scottish:Average German Average 2.416
12 Scottish:Average Belgian Average 2.837

It is more difficult to get a long list for some populations because it lists users that are close as well as individual samples and ancients. Of course anyone who knows how to use nMonte can get a complete list.

[Grace O'Malley]

1 Polish:Average Ukrainian Average 1.199
2 Polish:Average Russian_Voronez Average 1.707
3 Polish:Average Russian_Orel Average 1.825
4 Polish:Average Cossack_Ukrainian Average 1.993
5 Polish:Average Russian_Smolensk Average 2.063
6 Polish:Average Belarusian Average 2.112
7 Polish:Average Russian_Kursk Average 2.257
8 Polish:Average Slovakian Average 2.326
9 Polish:Average Czech Average 2.523
10 Polish:Average Russian_Tver Average 3.125
11 Polish:Average Slavic_Bohemia Average 3.139
12 Polish:Average Hungarian Average 3.582
13 Polish:Average Lithuanian Average 3.681
14 Polish:Average Slovenian Average 3.727
15 Polish:Average Estonian Average 3.79
16 Polish:Average Croatian Average 3.905
17 Polish:Average Cossack_Kuban Average 4.482
18 Polish:Average Swedish Average 4.498
19 Polish:Average Austrian Average 4.682
20 Polish:Average German Average 4.811
21 Polish:Average Latvian Average 4.843
22 Polish:Average Moldovan Average 4.878

[Finnish Swede]

So English are closer to Germans than Scandosluts. Nice.


https://media.giphy.com/media/5oZcD6HN4Yp6E/giphy.gif

[Grace O'Malley]

1 Finnish:Average Ingrian Average 1.69
2 Finnish:Average Finnish_East Average 2.356
3 Finnish:Average Karelian Average 2.603
4 Finnish:Average Russian_Kostroma Average 2.723
5 Finnish:Average Vepsian Average 2.87
6 Finnish:Average Estonian Average 3.785
7 Finnish:Average Mordovian Average 3.903
8 Finnish:Average Russian_Tver Average 3.956
9 Finnish:Average Russian_Pinega Average 4.013
10 Finnish:Average Cossack_Kuban Average 4.373
11 Finnish:Average Russian_Kursk Average 4.614
12 Finnish:Average Cossack_Ukrainian Average 4.767
13 Finnish:Average Russian_Orel Average 4.786
14 Finnish:Average Russian_Voronez Average 4.897
15 Finnish:Average Russian_Smolensk Average 5.021
16 Finnish:Average Belarusian Average 5.023
17 Finnish:Average Polish Average 5.341
18 Finnish:Average Ukrainian Average 5.411
19 Finnish:Average Swedish Average 5.63
20 Finnish:Average Lithuanian Average 5.732
21 Finnish:Average Latvian Average 5.737

I'll do the Swedes, Icelandics, Norwegians next. There are unfortunately no Danes in this yet.

[Grace O'Malley]

Icelandic is my closest population on this which is interesting and strange as well. :) They do appear quite close to Scots and Irish though.

1 Icelandic:Average Norwegian Average 1.207
2 Icelandic:Average Swedish Average 1.61
3 Icelandic:Average Scottish Average 1.613
4 Icelandic:Average Orcadian Average 1.677
5 Icelandic:Average Irish Average 1.69
6 Icelandic:Average Dutch Average 1.802
7 Icelandic:Average Welsh Average 1.889
8 Icelandic:Average English Average 1.955
9 Icelandic:Average Shetlandic Average 1.989
10 Icelandic:Average English_Cornwall Average 2.217
11 Icelandic:Average German Average 3.032

Norwegians

1 Norwegian:Average Icelandic Average 1.207
2 Norwegian:Average Swedish Average 1.553
3 Norwegian:Average Shetlandic Average 1.717
4 Norwegian:Average Dutch Average 1.774
5 Norwegian:Average Scottish Average 1.82
6 Norwegian:Average Welsh Average 1.832
7 Norwegian:Average Irish Average 1.95
8 Norwegian:Average Orcadian Average 2.055
9 Norwegian:Average English Average 2.222
10 Norwegian:Average English_Cornwall Average 2.5
11 Norwegian:Average German Average 3.01

1 Swedish:Average Norwegian Average 1.553
2 Swedish:Average Icelandic Average 1.61
3 Swedish:Average Dutch Average 2.074
4 Swedish:Average Orcadian Average 2.397
5 Swedish:Average Scottish Average 2.406
6 Swedish:Average Shetlandic Average 2.446
7 Swedish:Average Welsh Average 2.497
8 Swedish:Average English Average 2.652
9 Swedish:Average Irish Average 2.701
10 Swedish:Average English_Cornwall Average 2.949
11 Swedish:Average Czech Average 3.216

Do know how much more I can be bovvered doing this. :)

[Grace O'Malley]

Anglo-Saxons comprised of three individuals and their proximity to modern populations. Weird that they are closer to Irish than English or Germans. :confused:

1 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Icelandic Average 1.319
2 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Norwegian Average 1.352
3 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Swedish Average 1.912
4 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Irish Average 1.982
5 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Scottish Average 2.025
6 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Shetlandic Average 2.034
7 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Welsh Average 2.044
8 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Dutch Average 2.055
9 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Orcadian Average 2.279
10 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average English Average 2.386
11 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average English_Cornwall Average 2.634
12 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average German Average 3.367

I saw a thread on here about the Vikings from Sigtuna. Here's the pops they are closest to.

1 Sweden_Viking_Age:Average Swedish Average 3.277
2 Sweden_Viking_Age:Average Icelandic Average 3.681
3 Sweden_Viking_Age:Average Orcadian Average 3.743
4 Sweden_Viking_Age:Average Norwegian Average 3.92
5 Sweden_Viking_Age:Average Welsh Average 4.053
6 Sweden_Viking_Age:Average Scottish Average 4.092
7 Sweden_Viking_Age:Average Dutch Average 4.182
8 Sweden_Viking_Age:Average German Average 4.244
9 Sweden_Viking_Age:Average Czech Average 4.281
10 Sweden_Viking_Age:Average Shetlandic Average 4.297
11 Sweden_Viking_Age:Average English Average 4.318
12 Sweden_Viking_Age:Average Irish Average 4.325

[Jana]

Do you have similar statistics for Croats and Hungarians ?

[Finnish Swede]

Thanx Grace, these are interesting...

Generally asking the next:
Someway phenotypes still will not go totally same ways (same order) as our genetics (what comes to similarties). So how important are those genes of ours which influences you simply can not see...to those genes which influences you can see? Same or different?

[Grace O'Malley]

Do you have similar statistics for Croats and Hungarians ?

Yes. Here you go.

1 Croatian:Average Slovenian Average 1.068
2 Croatian:Average Hungarian Average 1.17
3 Croatian:Average Moldovan Average 1.651
4 Croatian:Average Bosnian Average 1.673
5 Croatian:Average Austrian Average 1.96
6 Croatian:Average Czech Average 2.351
7 Croatian:Average Montenegrin Average 2.787
8 Croatian:Average Serbian Average 2.945
9 Croatian:Average Slovakian Average 3.156
10 Croatian:Average German Average 3.17
11 Croatian:Average Romanian Average 3.55
12 Croatian:Average Polish Average 3.905
13 Croatian:Average French_East Average 3.968
14 Croatian:Average Macedonian Average 4.088
15 Croatian:Average Ukrainian Average 4.14
16 Croatian:Average Belgian Average 4.455
17 Croatian:Average Bulgarian Average 4.491

1 Hungarian:Average Croatian Average 1.17
2 Hungarian:Average Slovenian Average 1.416
3 Hungarian:Average Austrian Average 1.673
4 Hungarian:Average Czech Average 1.729
5 Hungarian:Average Moldovan Average 2.17
6 Hungarian:Average Bosnian Average 2.492
7 Hungarian:Average German Average 2.526
8 Hungarian:Average Slovakian Average 2.89
9 Hungarian:Average Montenegrin Average 3.437
10 Hungarian:Average Polish Average 3.582
11 Hungarian:Average Serbian Average 3.699
12 Hungarian:Average French_East Average 3.797
13 Hungarian:Average Dutch Average 3.953
14 Hungarian:Average Ukrainian Average 3.96
15 Hungarian:Average Belgian Average 4.048
16 Hungarian:Average Swedish Average 4.119
17 Hungarian:Average Romanian Average 4.176
18 Hungarian:Average Cossack_Ukrainian Average 4.447

[Finnish Swede]

If the number is smaller than 3 the race mixing is still quite small?

[Jana]

Thanks! So our populations are extremely closely related. My child who will be half Hungarian half Croat will be genetically typical for both populations, awesome ! :thumbsup:

[Sp_loa]

Do you have for Cantabria, Asturias and Galicia (North Spain)?

[Grace O'Malley]

Thanx Grace, these are interesting...

Generally asking the next:
Someway phenotypes still will not go totally same ways (same order) as our genetics (what comes to similarties). So how important are those genes of ours which influences you simply can not see...to those genes which influences you can see? Same or different?

Well people that have the lowest figures are genetically the most similar. I think phenotypes can be influenced by natural selection, environment etc. If a man was powerful enough in the past he could have many children so his genes would be more likely to live on and influence future generations so if he had a certain phenotype it would be passed down to his descendants. If he was red haired he would introduce that gene into his clan etc and if he had a lot of children they would all carry the red haired gene passing it on to future generations. So phenotype and colouring can be influenced by founder effect. You could get a group of brothers with different hair and eye colours but genetically they are very similar. One could be brown haired and dark eyed and marry someone with darker colouring as well so the children would be darker in colouring. The other brother could be blond/blue and marry someone with similar colouring so his children would have different colouring than his brother but be very similar genetically. Basically different family members can have different colouring and sometimes look quite different but genetically they are very close.

[Grace O'Malley]

If the number is smaller than 3 the race mixing is still quite small?

Yes. I could go to Iceland and not make much of a bleep in the genetics. :)

[Grace O'Malley]

Thanks! So our populations are extremely closely related. My child who will be half Hungarian half Croat will be genetically typical for both populations, awesome ! :thumbsup:

Yes you and Steers can have lovely Croatian/Hungarian babies. :)

[Grace O'Malley]

Do you have for Cantabria, Asturias and Galicia (North Spain)?

I will do them but as I've said earlier the Spanish regions are all more related to each other because they've all been split into different areas. I will looking at nMonte in the future so I can do this sort of stuff myself and it gives you much more flexibility.

[Finnish Swede]

Yes. I could go to Iceland and not make much of a bleep in the genetics. :)

I could go to Scandinavia, Iceland, Neitherlands and max. to UK. LOL. No wonder UK/British guys tends to like Swedish girls :)

[Grace O'Malley]

Do you have for Cantabria, Asturias and Galicia (North Spain)?

1 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Aragon Average 1.517
2 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Cataluna Average 1.631
3 Spanish_Cantabria:Average French_South Average 1.905
4 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 2.048
5 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Andalucia Average 2.207
6 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Valencia Average 2.3
7 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon Average 2.492
8 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Portuguese Average 2.506
9 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Murcia Average 2.547
10 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Extremadura Average 2.634
11 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Pais_Vasco Average 2.697
12 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Basque_French Average 2.81
13 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Galicia Average 3.075
14 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Basque_Spanish Average 3.095
15 Spanish_Cantabria:Average French Average 3.576
16 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 3.804
17 Spanish_Cantabria:Average French_East Average 4.296
18 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Belgian Average 4.77
19 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Canarias Average 5.232

1 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Extremadura Average 1.839
2 Spanish_Galicia:Average Portuguese Average 1.942
3 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Extremadura HG01510 2.171
4 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Murcia Average 2.271
5 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Cataluna Average 2.421
6 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 2.517
7 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Andalucia Average 2.672
8 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha Average 2.694
9 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Aragon Average 3.019
10 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Cantabria Average 3.075
11 Spanish_Galicia:Average French_South Average 3.871
12 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Valencia Average 3.99
13 Spanish_Galicia:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 4.227
14 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Canarias Average 4.248
15 Spanish_Galicia:Average French Average 4.469
16 Spanish_Galicia:Average French_East Average 4.763
17 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Pais_Vasco Average 4.968
18 Spanish_Galicia:Average Basque_French Average 5.188
19 Spanish_Galicia:Average Basque_Spanish Average 5.21
20 Spanish_Galicia:Average Italian_Tuscan Average 5.233
21 Spanish_Galicia:Average Belgian Average 5.531
22 Spanish_Galicia:Average Romanian Average 5.923

Sorry there wasn't any from Asturias.

[Sp_loa]

1 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Aragon Average 1.517
2 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Cataluna Average 1.631
3 Spanish_Cantabria:Average French_South Average 1.905
4 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 2.048
5 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Andalucia Average 2.207
6 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Valencia Average 2.3
7 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon Average 2.492
8 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Portuguese Average 2.506
9 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Murcia Average 2.547
10 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Extremadura Average 2.634
11 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Pais_Vasco Average 2.697
12 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Basque_French Average 2.81
13 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Galicia Average 3.075
14 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Basque_Spanish Average 3.095
15 Spanish_Cantabria:Average French Average 3.576
16 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 3.804
17 Spanish_Cantabria:Average French_East Average 4.296
18 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Belgian Average 4.77
19 Spanish_Cantabria:Average Spanish_Canarias Average 5.232

1 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Extremadura Average 1.839
2 Spanish_Galicia:Average Portuguese Average 1.942
3 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Extremadura HG01510 2.171
4 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Murcia Average 2.271
5 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Cataluna Average 2.421
6 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 2.517
7 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Andalucia Average 2.672
8 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha Average 2.694
9 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Aragon Average 3.019
10 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Cantabria Average 3.075
11 Spanish_Galicia:Average French_South Average 3.871
12 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Valencia Average 3.99
13 Spanish_Galicia:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 4.227
14 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Canarias Average 4.248
15 Spanish_Galicia:Average French Average 4.469
16 Spanish_Galicia:Average French_East Average 4.763
17 Spanish_Galicia:Average Spanish_Pais_Vasco Average 4.968
18 Spanish_Galicia:Average Basque_French Average 5.188
19 Spanish_Galicia:Average Basque_Spanish Average 5.21
20 Spanish_Galicia:Average Italian_Tuscan Average 5.233
21 Spanish_Galicia:Average Belgian Average 5.531
22 Spanish_Galicia:Average Romanian Average 5.923

Sorry there wasn't any from Asturias.

Thank you very much

[Sikeliot]

1 Sicilian_East:Average Sicilian_West Average 1.706
2 Sicilian_East:Average Italian_South Average 1.807
3 Sicilian_East:Average Italian_Abruzzo Average 2.073
4 Sicilian_East:Average Maltese Average 2.073
5 Sicilian_East:Average Ashkenazi_Jew Average 2.388
6 Sicilian_East:Average Italian_Jew Average 2.896
7 Sicilian_East:Average Greek_Crete Average 3.326
8 Sicilian_East:Average Sephardic_Jew Average 3.359
9 Sicilian_East:Average Italian_Tuscan Average 3.947
10 Sicilian_East:Average Greek Average 4.299
11 Sicilian_East:Average Albanian Average 4.719
12 Sicilian_East:Average Moroccan_Jew Average 4.95
13 Sicilian_East:Average Cypriot Average 5.318
14 Sicilian_East:Average Syrian_Jew Average 5.449
15 Sicilian_East:Average Greek_Central_Anatolia Average 5.852
16 Sicilian_East:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 5.873
17 Sicilian_East:Average Libyan_Jew Average 6.021
18 Sicilian_East:Average Tunisian_Jew Average 6.051
19 Sicilian_East:Average Druze Average 6.921
20 Sicilian_East:Average Bulgarian Average 7.024
21 Sicilian_East:Average Spanish_Andalucia Average 7.045
22 Sicilian_East:Average Lebanese_Druze Average 7.102
23 Sicilian_East:Average Turkish_Istanbul Average 7.13
24 Sicilian_East:Average Spanish_Extremadura Average 7.176
25 Sicilian_East:Average Lebanese_Muslim Average 7.204
26 Sicilian_East:Average Spanish_Canarias Average 7.279
27 Sicilian_East:Average Lebanese_Christian Average 7.312
28 Sicilian_East:Average Spanish_Murcia Average 7.328
29 Sicilian_East:Average Portuguese Average 7.357
30 Sicilian_East:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 7.461


1 Sicilian_West:Average Sicilian_East Average 1.706
2 Sicilian_West:Average Maltese Average 2.137
3 Sicilian_West:Average Italian_Abruzzo Average 2.203
4 Sicilian_West:Average Italian_South Average 2.279
5 Sicilian_West:Average Ashkenazi_Jew Average 2.662
6 Sicilian_West:Average Italian_Tuscan Average 3.56
7 Sicilian_West:Average Italian_Jew Average 3.572
8 Sicilian_West:Average Greek_Crete Average 3.957
9 Sicilian_West:Average Greek Average 3.987
10 Sicilian_West:Average Sephardic_Jew Average 3.993
11 Sicilian_West:Average Albanian Average 4.553
12 Sicilian_West:Average Moroccan_Jew Average 4.924
13 Sicilian_West:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 5.223
14 Sicilian_West:Average Spanish_Andalucia Average 6.013
15 Sicilian_West:Average Spanish_Extremadura Average 6.02
16 Sicilian_West:Average Syrian_Jew Average 6.12
17 Sicilian_West:Average Spanish_Canarias Average 6.143
18 Sicilian_West:Average Libyan_Jew Average 6.248
19 Sicilian_West:Average Spanish_Murcia Average 6.258
20 Sicilian_West:Average Cypriot Average 6.259
21 Sicilian_West:Average Portuguese Average 6.281
22 Sicilian_West:Average Bulgarian Average 6.387
23 Sicilian_West:Average Tunisian_Jew Average 6.401
24 Sicilian_West:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 6.49
25 Sicilian_West:Average Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha Average 6.651
26 Sicilian_West:Average Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon Average 6.728
27 Sicilian_West:Average Spanish_Galicia Average 6.729
28 Sicilian_West:Average Macedonian Average 6.886
29 Sicilian_West:Average Greek_Central_Anatolia Average 6.909
30 Sicilian_West:Average Romanian Average 7.098
31 Sicilian_West:Average Spanish_Valencia Average 7.118

Try "Greek" next?

"Sicilian West" is actually a poor representation of geographic western Sicily overall, it is based on Trapani which is an isolate region genetically, and studies have shown this. In Sarno et al 2017, all of Sicily except for Trapani and the Arbereshe are considered one cluster called "East Central Sicily" which means that most of geographic western Sicily would in fact be better represented by Sicily East above.

Sicilians appear slightly closer to Levantines than to Iberians as expected but roughly intermediate -- Druze is their first Levantine population interestingly enough above, but on Eurogenes K15 it is usually Muslim Lebanese. I wonder why the discrepancy.

Also, as expected the English and Irish are closer to one another than either one is to Germans or Dutch. :)

[Seya]

can u try Romania pls? looks very interesting :thumb001:

[Grace O'Malley]

Try "Greek" next?

"Sicilian West" is actually a poor representation of geographic western Sicily overall, it is based on Trapani which is an isolate region genetically, and studies have shown this. In Sarno et al 2017, all of Sicily except for Trapani and the Arbereshe are considered one cluster called "East Central Sicily" which means that most of geographic western Sicily would in fact be better represented by Sicily East above.

Sicilians appear slightly closer to Levantines than to Iberians as expected but roughly intermediate -- Druze is their first Levantine population interestingly enough above, but on Eurogenes K15 it is usually Muslim Lebanese. I wonder why the discrepancy.

Also, as expected the English and Irish are closer to one another than either one is to Germans or Dutch. :)

Dutch are a very close population to Isles people anyway.

1 Greek:Average Albanian Average 1.392
2 Greek:Average Italian_Tuscan Average 2.851
3 Greek:Average Italian_Abruzzo Average 2.934
4 Greek:Average Bulgarian Average 3.181
5 Greek:Average Macedonian Average 3.541
6 Greek:Average Italian_South Average 3.681
7 Greek:Average Sicilian_West Average 3.987
8 Greek:Average Romanian Average 4.026
9 Greek:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 4.047
10 Greek:Average Sicilian_East Average 4.299
11 Greek:Average Serbian Average 4.663
12 Greek:Average Montenegrin Average 4.918
13 Greek:Average Maltese Average 4.928
14 Greek:Average Greek_Crete Average 5.013
15 Greek:Average Maros Average 5.115
16 Greek:Average Ashkenazi_Jew Average 5.191
17 Greek:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 5.68
18 Greek:Average Spanish_Andalucia Average 5.935
19 Greek:Average Spanish_Murcia Average 6.088
20 Greek:Average Spanish_Extremadura Average 6.143
21 Greek:Average Bosnian Average 6.329
22 Greek:Average Portuguese Average 6.419
23 Greek:Average Moldovan Average 6.555
24 Greek:Average Spanish_Galicia Average 6.563
25 Greek:Average Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon Average 6.743
26 Greek:Average Spanish_Cataluna Average 6.839

[Grace O'Malley]

can do try Romania pls? looks very interesting :thumb001:

1 Romanian:Average Serbian Average 1.218
2 Romanian:Average Montenegrin Average 1.349
3 Romanian:Average Bulgarian Average 1.355
4 Romanian:Average Macedonian Average 1.438
5 Romanian:Average Bosnian Average 2.67
6 Romanian:Average Moldovan Average 2.801
7 Romanian:Average Croatian Average 3.55
8 Romanian:Average Austrian Average 3.835
9 Romanian:Average Albanian Average 3.846
10 Romanian:Average Slovenian Average 3.963
11 Romanian:Average Greek Average 4.026
12 Romanian:Average Hungarian Average 4.176
13 Romanian:Average French_East Average 4.197
14 Romanian:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 4.553
15 Romanian:Average French Average 4.715
16 Romanian:Average Belgian Average 4.958
17 Romanian:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 5.062
18 Romanian:Average Italian_Tuscan Average 5.187
19 Romanian:Average German Average 5.227

[Seya]

1 Romanian:Average Serbian Average 1.218
2 Romanian:Average Montenegrin Average 1.349
3 Romanian:Average Bulgarian Average 1.355
4 Romanian:Average Macedonian Average 1.438
5 Romanian:Average Bosnian Average 2.67
6 Romanian:Average Moldovan Average 2.801
7 Romanian:Average Croatian Average 3.55
8 Romanian:Average Austrian Average 3.835
9 Romanian:Average Albanian Average 3.846
10 Romanian:Average Slovenian Average 3.963
11 Romanian:Average Greek Average 4.026
12 Romanian:Average Hungarian Average 4.176
13 Romanian:Average French_East Average 4.197
14 Romanian:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 4.553
15 Romanian:Average French Average 4.715
16 Romanian:Average Belgian Average 4.958
17 Romanian:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 5.062
18 Romanian:Average Italian_Tuscan Average 5.187
19 Romanian:Average German Average 5.227

thank u very much :)

[Tommie]

1 Hungarian:Average Croatian Average 1.17
2 Hungarian:Average Slovenian Average 1.416
3 Hungarian:Average Austrian Average 1.673
4 Hungarian:Average Czech Average 1.729
5 Hungarian:Average Moldovan Average 2.17
6 Hungarian:Average Bosnian Average 2.492
7 Hungarian:Average German Average 2.526
8 Hungarian:Average Slovakian Average 2.89
9 Hungarian:Average Montenegrin Average 3.437
10 Hungarian:Average Polish Average 3.582
11 Hungarian:Average Serbian Average 3.699
12 Hungarian:Average French_East Average 3.797
13 Hungarian:Average Dutch Average 3.953
14 Hungarian:Average Ukrainian Average 3.96
15 Hungarian:Average Belgian Average 4.048
16 Hungarian:Average Swedish Average 4.119
17 Hungarian:Average Romanian Average 4.176
18 Hungarian:Average Cossack_Ukrainian Average 4.447
Very odd that they're closer to Dutch and Swedes than to Romanians. :confused: How many samples were there?

[Grace O'Malley]

Weird that they're closer to Dutch and Swedes than to Romanians. :confused: How many samples were there?

There was only 10 in that sample. The Global 25 only uses academic samples. All the ancients are on it and more populations will be added when they become available. There also was 10 in the Romanian sample.

[Finnish Swede]

How about doing that from gypsies? Mortimer would finally know who is his missing ''brother'' here in Europe?

[Hadouken]

can you show the list for kurdish please

[Grace O'Malley]

There is actually some Roma.


1 Roma:Average Turkish_Istanbul Average 8.486
2 Roma:Average Turkish_Balikesir Average 8.635
3 Roma:Average Turkish_Adana Average 9.065
4 Roma:Average Turkish_Aydin Average 9.102
5 Roma:Average Iranian_Persian Average 9.14
6 Roma:Average Iranian_Fars Average 9.157
7 Roma:Average Tajik_Yagnobi Average 9.258
8 Roma:Average Tajik_Ishkashim Average 9.35
9 Roma:Average Tajik_Shugnan Average 9.351
10 Roma:Average Azeri Average 9.392
11 Roma:Average Azeri_Iran Average 9.407
12 Roma:Average Tajik_Rushan Average 9.418
13 Roma:Average Iranian_Bandari Average 9.429
14 Roma:Average Uthmankhel Average 9.624
15 Roma:Average Tarkalani Average 9.747
16 Roma:Average Turkish_Kayseri Average 9.793
17 Roma:Average Tajik Average 9.934
18 Roma:Average Yusufzai Average 10.022
19 Roma:Average Pashtun Average 10.05
20 Roma:Average Kumyk Average 10.133
21 Roma:Average Kabardin Average 10.149
22 Roma:Average Iranian_Lor Average 10.251
23 Roma:Average Azeri_Dagestan Average 10.264

Pretty exotic places. Some of the regions I'm not familiar with.

[Grace O'Malley]

can you show the list for kurdish please

Some of the sample sizes are fairly small but here's the populations that are closest.

1 Kurdish:Average Iranian_Lor Average 2.189
2 Kurdish:Average Iranian_Zoroastrian Average 2.662
3 Kurdish:Average Iranian_Fars Average 3.03
4 Kurdish:Average Azeri_Iran Average 3.196
5 Kurdish:Average Azeri Average 3.371
6 Kurdish:Average Iranian_Persian Average 3.534
7 Kurdish:Average Assyrian Average 3.697
8 Kurdish:Average Georgian_Jew Average 3.717
9 Kurdish:Average Iran_recent Average 3.998
10 Kurdish:Average Iranian_Mazandarani Average 4.281
11 Kurdish:Average Iranian_Jew Average 4.344
12 Kurdish:Average Armenian Average 4.421
13 Kurdish:Average Turkish_Kayseri Average 4.556
14 Kurdish:Average Turkish_Adana Average 4.601
15 Kurdish:Average Azeri_Dagestan Average 4.823
16 Kurdish:Average Turkish_Trabzon Average 5.574
17 Kurdish:Average Greek_Trabzon Average 5.933
18 Kurdish:Average Iraqi_Jew Average 5.947
19 Kurdish:Average Georgian_Laz Average 6.157
20 Kurdish:Average Turkish_Istanbul Average 6.471
21 Kurdish:Average Kumyk Average 6.561
22 Kurdish:Average Greek_Central_Anatolia Average 6.733
23 Kurdish:Average Lebanese_Druze Average 6.803
24 Kurdish:Average Lebanese_Muslim Average 6.811

[Sikeliot]

Try Crete?

[J. Ketch]

Try Crete?
6 Greek_Crete:Average Italian_South Average 2.66
11 Greek_Crete:Average Ashkenazi_Jew Average 3
16 Greek_Crete:Average Italian_Abruzzo Average 3.325
17 Greek_Crete:Average Sicilian_East Average 3.326
18 Greek_Crete:Average Italian_Jew Average 3.352

[Sikeliot]

6 Greek_Crete:Average Italian_South Average 2.66
11 Greek_Crete:Average Ashkenazi_Jew Average 3
16 Greek_Crete:Average Italian_Abruzzo Average 3.325
17 Greek_Crete:Average Sicilian_East Average 3.326
18 Greek_Crete:Average Italian_Jew Average 3.352

Show the entire list from top match on?

[J. Ketch]

Also, as expected the English and Irish are closer to one another than either one is to Germans or Dutch. :)
On average but not in all cases. My mother is closer to the Dutch average than Irish (or English), and closer to Norwegians than Germans.

[J. Ketch]

Show the entire list from top match on?
This list I can access (top 25) is made up mostly of individual samples.

1 Greek_Crete:Average Greek_Crete B_Crete-2 1.58
2 Greek_Crete:Average Greek_Crete NA17376 2.128
3 Greek_Crete:Average Greek_Crete B_Crete-1 2.262
4 Greek_Crete:Average Cypriot Cyprus13AJ19 2.317
5 Greek_Crete:Average Ashkenazi_Jew ashkenazy3e 2.654
6 Greek_Crete:Average Italian_South Average 2.66
7 Greek_Crete:Average Italian_South ITS2 2.756
8 Greek_Crete:Average Italian_Jew ItalyJew6 2.802
9 Greek_Crete:Average Ashkenazi_Jew ashkenazy4w 2.862
10 Greek_Crete:Average Sicilian_East EastSicilian8H 2.948
11 Greek_Crete:Average Ashkenazi_Jew Average 3
12 Greek_Crete:Average Italian_South ITS4 3.105
13 Greek_Crete:Average Italian_Abruzzo ItalyAbruzzo19 3.232
14 Greek_Crete:Average Ashkenazi_Jew ashkenazy3w 3.238
15 Greek_Crete:Average Sephardic_Jew SephardicJew24032 3.271
16 Greek_Crete:Average Italian_Abruzzo Average 3.325
17 Greek_Crete:Average Sicilian_East Average 3.326
18 Greek_Crete:Average Italian_Jew Average 3.352
19 Greek_Crete:Average Italian_South BEL57 3.362
20 Greek_Crete:Average Sephardic_Jew SephardicJew24392 3.369
21 Greek_Crete:Average Italian_Abruzzo ItalyAbruzzo22 3.414
22 Greek_Crete:Average Custom AGUser_soulblighter_mr 3.425
23 Greek_Crete:Average Greek_Central_Anatolia G25003 3.467
24 Greek_Crete:Average Italian_Jew ItalyJew7 3.482
25 Greek_Crete:Average Greek NA17375 3.513

[Gründig]

Just putting some populations on here and who they are closest to genetically.

I'll start off with Ireland, of course.

1 Irish:Average Scottish Average 0.683
2 Irish:Average Orcadian Average 1.062
3 Irish:Average English Average 1.122
4 Irish:Average English_Cornwall Average 1.334
5 Irish:Average Shetlandic Average 1.39
6 Irish:Average Welsh Average 1.399
7 Irish:Average Dutch Average 1.589
8 Irish:Average Icelandic Average 1.69
9 Irish:Average Norwegian Average 1.95
10 Irish:Average Swedish Average 2.701
11 Irish:Average German Average 2.842
12 Irish:Average Belgian Average 3.076

English

1 English:Average English_Cornwall Average 0.661
2 English:Average Scottish Average 0.763
3 English:Average Orcadian Average 1.091
4 English:Average Irish Average 1.122
5 English:Average Dutch Average 1.302
6 English:Average Welsh Average 1.618
7 English:Average Shetlandic Average 1.804
8 English:Average Icelandic Average 1.955
9 English:Average German Average 2.205
10 English:Average Norwegian Average 2.222
11 English:Average Belgian Average 2.437
12 English:Average Swedish Average 2.652

French

1 French:Average French_East Average 1.349
2 French:Average Belgian Average 1.435
3 French:Average German Average 3.313
4 French:Average Spanish_Cataluna Average 3.381
5 French:Average Austrian Average 3.396
6 French:Average English_Cornwall Average 3.446
7 French:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 3.573
8 French:Average Spanish_Cantabria Average 3.576
9 French:Average English Average 3.58
10 French:Average French_South Average 3.676
11 French:Average Dutch Average 3.999
12 French:Average Spanish_Valencia Average 4.072

Germans

1 German:Average Austrian Average 1.685
2 German:Average Dutch Average 1.939
3 German:Average English Average 2.205
4 German:Average Belgian Average 2.266
5 German:Average English_Cornwall Average 2.347
6 German:Average Scottish Average 2.416
7 German:Average Orcadian Average 2.484
8 German:Average Welsh Average 2.56
9 German:Average Shetlandic Average 2.702
10 German:Average Swedish Average 2.74
11 German:Average Irish Average 2.842
12 German:Average Norwegian Average 3.01


I don't know how to use nMonte yet but just use a tool that does the same thing. I'll look at nMonte later and Global25 because these are the most advanced tools available for anyone interested in genetics.

I'll add some more later.

What is your closest single population match and what distance?

[CommonSense]

Do you have any stats for Serbs?

[Lugh]

Show the entire list from top match on?

Here:
https://i.imgur.com/nlNKeVN.png

They are closer to some Lebanese than to Albanians! Quite exotic...

[Chaos One]

Probably my last post here in TA

Try Tajik, please. Seems they used the Tajik samples that I've matches.

[Norb]

Grace can you do North Dutch and South Dutch please?

[Grace O'Malley]

What is your closest single population match and what distance?

My closest population on this is Icelandic.

https://i.imgur.com/BhXzS68.png

I'll look at the rest of people's requests tomorrow unless someone else does them.

[Sikeliot]

Here:
https://i.imgur.com/nlNKeVN.png

They are closer to some Lebanese than to Albanians! Quite exotic...

But closer to Abruzzo than to Sicily. Very odd.

[Sikeliot]

Here:
https://i.imgur.com/nlNKeVN.png

They are closer to some Lebanese than to Albanians! Quite exotic...

But closer to abruzzo than to Sicily. Very odd.

[Sikeliot]

Try Italian South next?

[Bobby Martnen]

https://media.giphy.com/media/5oZcD6HN4Yp6E/giphy.gif

I don't like Scandos because they are pro-refugee and anti-Western. It's not a racial hatred or anything.

[Grace O'Malley]

Grace can you do North Dutch and South Dutch please?

They only have Dutch but it's quite a big sample.

1 Dutch:Average Scottish Average 1.163
2 Dutch:Average English Average 1.302
3 Dutch:Average Orcadian Average 1.469
4 Dutch:Average English_Cornwall Average 1.527
5 Dutch:Average Irish Average 1.589
6 Dutch:Average Shetlandic Average 1.596
7 Dutch:Average Norwegian Average 1.774
8 Dutch:Average Icelandic Average 1.802
9 Dutch:Average Welsh Average 1.865
10 Dutch:Average German Average 1.939
11 Dutch:Average Swedish Average 2.074
12 Dutch:Average Belgian Average 2.752

[Grace O'Malley]

Probably my last post here in TA

Try Tajik, please. Seems they used the Tajik samples that I've matches.


1 Tajik:Average Tajik_Rushan Average 2.317
2 Tajik:Average Tajik_Shugnan Average 2.339
3 Tajik:Average Tajik_Yagnobi Average 3.538
4 Tajik:Average Tajik_Ishkashim Average 3.784
5 Tajik:Average Kangju Average 6.305
6 Tajik:Average Wusun Average 6.634
7 Tajik:Average Uthmankhel Average 7.306
8 Tajik:Average Tarkalani Average 7.353
9 Tajik:Average Kho_Singanali Average 7.381
10 Tajik:Average Sarmatian_West Average 7.443
11 Tajik:Average Kalash Average 7.545
12 Tajik:Average Tabasaran Average 7.864
13 Tajik:Average Yusufzai Average 8.14
14 Tajik:Average Pashtun Average 8.38
15 Tajik:Average Avar Average 8.448
16 Tajik:Average Azeri_Dagestan Average 9.08

[Grace O'Malley]

Global25 also has Ancient Celtic and Germanic samples, what about them?

I take out any of the ancient samples and single samples and only put in the country averages because this thread is just about modern populations.

I've looked at some of the ancient samples for myself though.

[Norb]

I take out any of the ancient samples and single samples and only put in the country averages because this thread is just about modern populations.

I've looked at some of the ancient samples for myself though.

which Northern European population shows the biggest change from Ancient to Modern?

[CommonSense]

Grace, did you see my comment? Are there any stats like these for Serbs?

[Aren]

David really needs to get regional samples. Germany, Sweden, France and the Netherlands need to be split up in regions.

[Grace O'Malley]

Try Italian South next?

1 Italian_South:Average Sicilian_East Average 1.807
2 Italian_South:Average Sicilian_West Average 2.279
3 Italian_South:Average Maltese Average 2.507
4 Italian_South:Average Ashkenazi_Jew Average 2.54
5 Italian_South:Average Greek_Crete Average 2.66
6 Italian_South:Average Italian_Jew Average 3.406
7 Italian_South:Average Italian_Tuscan Average 3.51
8 Italian_South:Average Greek Average 3.681
9 Italian_South:Average Sephardic_Jew Average 3.783
10 Italian_South:Average Albanian Average 4.355
11 Italian_South:Average Cypriot Average 5.375
12 Italian_South:Average Moroccan_Jew Average 5.422
13 Italian_South:Average Syrian_Jew Average 5.6
14 Italian_South:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 5.681
15 Italian_South:Average Bulgarian Average 6.422
16 Italian_South:Average Turkish_Istanbul Average 6.477
17 Italian_South:Average Libyan_Jew Average 6.5
18 Italian_South:Average Tunisian_Jew Average 6.627
19 Italian_South:Average Druze Average 6.934
20 Italian_South:Average Macedonian Average 6.95
21 Italian_South:Average Spanish_Andalucia Average 7.005
22 Italian_South:Average Lebanese_Druze Average 7.142
23 Italian_South:Average Spanish_Extremadura Average 7.171
24 Italian_South:Average Lebanese_Muslim Average 7.255
25 Italian_South:Average Romanian Average 7.259
26 Italian_South:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 7.272
27 Italian_South:Average Spanish_Murcia Average 7.304
28 Italian_South:Average Portuguese Average 7.379

[Grace O'Malley]

Grace, did you see my comment? Are there any stats like these for Serbs?

Oh sorry. I missed your comment.

I'll check later.

[Grace O'Malley]

which Northern European population shows the biggest change from Ancient to Modern?

That's most probably a better question for Peterski or someone that has studied it in more depth. :)

[cyberlorian]

https://media.giphy.com/media/5oZcD6HN4Yp6E/giphy.gif

Whom do the woman and the man represent on this gif?

[cyberlorian]

I'll add some more later.

Can you do it also for Turkish people, please. :)

[Grace O'Malley]

Grace, did you see my comment? Are there any stats like these for Serbs?

Here's the Serbs.

1 Serbian:Average Romanian Average 1.218
2 Serbian:Average Montenegrin Average 1.381
3 Serbian:Average Macedonian Average 1.541
4 Serbian:Average Bulgarian Average 1.917
5 Serbian:Average Bosnian Average 2.072
6 Serbian:Average Moldovan Average 2.402
7 Serbian:Average Croatian Average 2.945
8 Serbian:Average Slovenian Average 3.375
9 Serbian:Average Austrian Average 3.654
10 Serbian:Average Hungarian Average 3.699
11 Serbian:Average French_East Average 4.398
12 Serbian:Average Albanian Average 4.429
13 Serbian:Average Greek Average 4.663
14 Serbian:Average German Average 5.044
15 Serbian:Average French Average 5.052
16 Serbian:Average Czech Average 5.118
17 Serbian:Average Belgian Average 5.165
18 Serbian:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 5.203
19 Serbian:Average Slavic_Bohemia Average 5.571

[CommonSense]

^ Thank you. It's interesting how we are closer to even the Eastern French, than we are to the Albanians :confused:

[J. Ketch]

which Northern European population shows the biggest change from Ancient to Modern?
Your question doesn't make sense - Northern European ethnic groups didn't exist in ancient times, but NW Europeans were definitely more Steppe shifted in the Bronze Age, and probably a bit more in the Iron Age, than now. Scandinavians have probably changed the least.

[Vid Flumina]

They only have Dutch but it's quite a big sample.

1 Dutch:Average Scottish Average 1.163
2 Dutch:Average English Average 1.302
3 Dutch:Average Orcadian Average 1.469
4 Dutch:Average English_Cornwall Average 1.527
5 Dutch:Average Irish Average 1.589
6 Dutch:Average Shetlandic Average 1.596
7 Dutch:Average Norwegian Average 1.774
8 Dutch:Average Icelandic Average 1.802
9 Dutch:Average Welsh Average 1.865
10 Dutch:Average German Average 1.939
11 Dutch:Average Swedish Average 2.074
12 Dutch:Average Belgian Average 2.752


How can Dutch be closer to Welsh than to Belgian or German..

[J. Ketch]

How can Dutch be closer to Welsh than to Belgian or German..
Because the German average includes South Germans and East Germans. If it were just NW Germans they would likely be the closest population to Dutch. Belgians are pretty South shifted (half of them are French), very distinct from North Dutch.

[Vid Flumina]

Because the German average includes South Germans and East Germans. If it were just NW Germans they would likely be the closest population to Dutch. Belgians are pretty South shifted (half of them are French), very distinct from North Dutch.

Germans have massive Germanic input, no matter whence.
Belgians, including Walloons, also have far more than any Welsh.

[J. Ketch]

Germans have massive Germanic input, no matter whence.
Belgians, including Walloons, also have far more than any Welsh.
There is more to these populations than recent 'Germanic' input. If you'd ever looked at Northern European PCA's before it wouldn't be a massive surprise that Dutch are closer to Welsh than Belgians or Germans overall.

[Vid Flumina]

There is more to these populations than recent 'Germanic' input. If you'd ever looked at Northern European PCA's before it wouldn't be a massive surprise that Dutch are closer to Welsh than Belgians or Germans overall.

As a matter of fact I'm not disputing the distance on PCA or whatever tool but the relevance of these results..

[Percivalle]

As a matter of fact I'm not disputing the distance on PCA or whatever tool but the relevance of these results..

Not always are accurate for all the ethnicities.

Perché alla fine della fiera, it always depends on the chosen samples.

[Grace O'Malley]

Germans have massive Germanic input, no matter whence.
Belgians, including Walloons, also have far more than any Welsh.

A lot of these populations share a lot of ancient ancestry. It is very difficult to separate "Celtic" and "Germanic" populations but Germany has a lot of genetic variance as has been mentioned and it depends on what part of Germany the samples are from but in this all the samples are one group and the result is averaged. Individual Germans and Dutch would be close but the Dutch are quite close to populations from the Isles. It really has more to do with how much Steppe, Early Farmer, Hunter Gatherer populations have. What exactly contributes to "massive Germanic input" anyway. Germanic languages just sprang out of similar ancient populations as other groups. Northwestern Europeans are all very similar genetically whether they are Welsh or Dutch.

[Vid Flumina]

It really has more to do with how much Steppe, Early Farmer, Hunter Gatherer populations have. What exactly contributes to "massive Germanic input" anyway. Germanic languages just sprang out of similar ancient populations as other groups. Northwestern Europeans are all very similar genetically whether they are Welsh or Dutch.

Same Steppe/EEF ratio doesn't mean same people.

Germanic and Brythonic people have independent development since the Bronze Age..

[Grace O'Malley]

Can you do it also for Turkish people, please. :)Turkey has about 6 regions but here you go.


1 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Turkish_Adana Average 2.939
2 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Turkish_Kayseri Average 3.126
3 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Turkish_Balikesir Average 4.168
4 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Turkish_Aydin Average 4.196
5 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Azeri_Iran Average 4.958
6 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Kumyk Average 4.986
7 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Azeri Average 4.995
8 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Kabardin Average 5.358
9 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Azeri_Dagestan Average 5.768
10 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Karachay Average 5.797
11 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Cherkes Average 5.822
12 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Greek_Crete Average 6.092
13 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Ashkenazi_Jew Average 6.148
14 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Balkar Average 6.414
15 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Kurdish Average 6.471
16 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Italian_South Average 6.477
17 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Greek_Central_Anatolia Average 6.515
18 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Iran_recent Average 6.611
19 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Iranian_Fars Average 6.659
20 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Iranian_Zoroastrian Average 6.772
21 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Georgian_Jew Average 6.841
22 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Iranian_Lor Average 6.974
23 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Italian_Abruzzo Average 6.994
24 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Sicilian_East Average 7.13
25 Turkish_Istanbul:Average Chechen Average 7.138

[Grace O'Malley]

Same Steppe/EEF ratio doesn't mean same people.

Germanic and Brythonic people have independent development since the Bronze Age..

Similar populations though and Brythonic is really just a language group. It's not like the genetics are vastly different. They all are close populations geographically and they all cluster together. If you look at genetics you know this. There is less distance genetically between all the Northwest Europeans than between many countries.

[Haider]

Can you try Lebanese and Armenians please?

[FilhoV]

Portuguese

1 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Extremadura Average 1.473
2 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon Average 1.521
3 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Murcia Average 1.647
4 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha Average 1.682
5 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Andalucia Average 1.702
6 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Galicia Average 1.942
7 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Aragon Average 1.974
8 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Cataluna Average 2.008
9 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 2.05
10 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Cantabria Average 2.506
11 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Valencia Average 3.048
12 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Canarias Average 3.48
13 Portuguese:Average French_South Average 3.54
14 Portuguese:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 3.623
15 Portuguese:Average Spanish_Pais_Vasco Average 4.357
16 Portuguese:Average French Average 4.434
17 Portuguese:Average Basque_French Average 4.687
18 Portuguese:Average Basque_Spanish Average 4.815
19 Portuguese:Average Italian_Tuscan Average 4.823
20 Portuguese:Average French_East Average 4.969
21 Portuguese:Average Belgian Average 5.582

Thanks looks like my oracle on Eurogenes

[Vid Flumina]

Similar populations though and Brythonic is really just a language group. It's not like the genetics are vastly different. They all are close populations geographically and they all cluster together. If you look at genetics you know this. There is less distance genetically between all the Northwest Europeans than between many countries.


Steppe/EEF ratio is a myopic way to look at the data. And if language and culture has little relevance, even less has the geographic notion of Northwest.

[Aren]

Steppe/EEF ratio is a myopic way to look at the data. And if language and culture has little relevance, even less has the geographic notion of Northwest.

This close relation goes far beyond ancient components like EEF or WHG. They share quite a lot of recent genetic drift aswell. There's no surprise that in many calculators on Gedmatch who have components based on modern people like Eurogenes K13 or K36, both Celts and Germanics have about the same ratio of each of these components with some differences here and there.

[Vid Flumina]

This close relation goes far beyond ancient components like EEF or WHG. They share quite a lot of recent genetic drift aswell. There's no surprise that in many calculators on Gedmatch who have components based on modern people like Eurogenes K13 or K36, both Celts and Germanics have about the same ratio of each of these components with some differences here and there.


No professional really considers Gedmatch components to draw any kind of conclusion..

[Aren]

No professional really considers Gedmatch components for his analysis..

You can say a lot about Gedmatch but there's no denying that modern day Germanics and Celts share a lot recent genetic drift. The calculators I mentioned are a proof of that.
Also like Jessie mentioned even peer-reviewed studies show Irish, Scots, Norwegians, Germans etc all plotting very close to one and other. The relation is far deeper than just similar proportions of ancient components.

[Chaos One]

1 Tajik:Average Tajik_Rushan Average 2.317
2 Tajik:Average Tajik_Shugnan Average 2.339
3 Tajik:Average Tajik_Yagnobi Average 3.538
4 Tajik:Average Tajik_Ishkashim Average 3.784
5 Tajik:Average Kangju Average 6.305
6 Tajik:Average Wusun Average 6.634
7 Tajik:Average Uthmankhel Average 7.306
8 Tajik:Average Tarkalani Average 7.353
9 Tajik:Average Kho_Singanali Average 7.381
10 Tajik:Average Sarmatian_West Average 7.443
11 Tajik:Average Kalash Average 7.545
12 Tajik:Average Tabasaran Average 7.864
13 Tajik:Average Yusufzai Average 8.14
14 Tajik:Average Pashtun Average 8.38
15 Tajik:Average Avar Average 8.448
16 Tajik:Average Azeri_Dagestan Average 9.08

Interesting how they are far from any other Central Asian plots. Even Azeri plots before Uzbeks for example...and the closest one is Kangju at 6+.

[Vid Flumina]

You can say a lot about Gedmatch but there's no denying that modern day Germanics and Celts share a lot recent genetic drift. The calculators I mentioned are a proof of that.

Gedmatch calculators such as K36 also tell some Portuguese members that they are closer to people from Trentino or Friuli than to Asturians or Extremadurans, let’s draw a veil over this tool..



Also like Jessie mentioned even peer-reviewed studies show Irish, Scots, Norwegians, Germans etc all plotting very close to one and other. The relation is far deeper than just similar proportions of ancient components.

An Estonian octoroon would plot very close to Tyroleans, I guess the relation is far deeper here as well..

[Aren]

Gedmatch calculators such as K36 also tell some Portuguese members that they are closer to people from Trentino or Friuli than to Asturian or Extremadurans, let’s draw a veil over this tool..
Where did you get this? Can you show me of such cases? Eurogenes K36 is one of the many calculators on Gedmatch with modern components, I doubt that in K13 Portuguese are closer to North Italians. However many Dutch, Germans can get Irish or Scottish as first match on these calcs.


An Estonian octoroon would plot very close to Tyroleans, I guess the relation is far deeper than just similar proportions of ancient components as well.
You are talking of artifical resemblance due to diluting of the DNA. How could this possibly apply to what I was talking about?

[FilhoV]

Where did you get this? Can you show me of such cases? Eurogenes K36 is one of the many calculators on Gedmatch with modern components, I doubt that in K13 Portuguese are closer to North Italians. However many Dutch, Germans can get Irish or Scottish as first match on these calcs.


You are talking of artifical resemblance due to diluting of the DNA. How could this possibly apply to what I was talking about?

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Spanish_Extremadura 2.57
2 Portuguese 3.37
3 Spanish_Murcia 3.74
4 Spanish_Andalucia 4
5 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 4.53
6 Spanish_Galicia 4.68
7 Spanish_Valencia 4.94
8 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 5.02
9 Spanish_Cataluna 5.75
10 Spanish_Cantabria 7.02
11 Spanish_Aragon 7.9
12 North_Italian 8.19
13 Southwest_French 9.52
14 French 12.16
15 Tuscan 13.65
16 West_German 18.27
17 South_Dutch 18.27
18 French_Basque 19.58
19 West_Sicilian 19.94
20 Italian_Abruzzo 19.97

[Lucas]

Gedmatch calculators such as K36 also tell some Portuguese members that they are closer to people from Trentino or Friuli than to Asturians or Extremadurans, let’s draw a veil over this tool..
..

Very interesting, but on your PCA with K15
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?259148-Ancient-South-Italian-samples-from-Collegno-Italy-from-400-800-AD&p=5427458&viewfull=1#post5427458
Galicia is near Aosta also.

Practically on all calculators there is such resemblance of western Iberians to north Italy. It must be sth real here. Maybe it is artificial because of similar components, don't know, but it is.

[Vid Flumina]

Where did you get this? Can you show me of such cases? Eurogenes K36 is one of the many calculators on Gedmatch with modern components, I doubt that in K13 Portuguese are closer to North Italians. However many Dutch, Germans can get Irish or Scottish as first match on these calcs.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?246786-Viriato-LM-GENETICS-K36-report




You are talking of artifical resemblance due to diluting of the DNA. How could this possibly apply to what I was talking about?

It's not me who used raw plotting distance as ultimate evidence of genetic relatedness..

[Vid Flumina]

Very interesting, but on your PCA with K15
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?259148-Ancient-South-Italian-samples-from-Collegno-Italy-from-400-800-AD&p=5427458&viewfull=1#post5427458
Galicia is near Aosta also.

Practically on all calculators there is such resemblance of western Iberians to north Italy. It must be sth real here. Maybe it is artificial because of similar components, don't know, but it is.


Anyone familiar with Aostans knows it's not real..

Western Iberians also have substantial African admixture that's essentially absent in Northern Italy

Some calculators such as MDLP K16 pick up these differences better than others

[Aren]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?246786-Viriato-LM-GENETICS-K36-report

He's quite far from both populations, quite strange but then again K36 has some components that are very close to one and other so populations who are already close(like Iberians and North Italians) might be even closer in these calcs. I prefer Eurogenes K13 or K15 when it comes to calcs with modern components.



It's not me who used raw plotting distance as ultimate evidence of genetic relatedness..
How about recent genetic drift(as shown by say Eurogenes K13) or PCA based spreadsheets(like Global 25 used in this thread). Do they also not count as evidence of the close relation between modern Celts and Germanics?

You won't find a single modern peer reviewed study who shows Celts and Germanics as far away from one and other autosomally.

[Damião de Góis]

The distances are the same for everyone in every calculator. K36 doesn't have an official Oracle, it may need some fixing.
I have never seen any portuguese result that has north italy before all the spanish regions on any Eurogenes/Dodecad run. Viriato's non-official k36 Oracle might be the only case.

I would say my distances (on Eurogenes k13 for example) are pretty standard as far as portuguese people go:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Portuguese 2.47
2 Spanish_Extremadura 3.4
3 Spanish_Cataluna 3.71
4 Spanish_Murcia 3.82
5 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 3.89
6 Spanish_Galicia 4.22
7 Spanish_Valencia 4.44
8 Spanish_Andalucia 4.94
9 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 5.17
10 Spanish_Cantabria 6.44
11 Spanish_Aragon 7.94
12 North_Italian 8.53
13 Southwest_French 8.75
14 French 9.38
15 Tuscan 14.39
16 West_German 15.36
17 South_Dutch 15.43
18 French_Basque 19.37
19 Southeast_English 19.82
20 Romanian 19.96




Anyone familiar with Aostans knows it's not real..

Western Iberians also have substantial African admixture that's essentially absent in Northern Italy

Some calculators such as MDLP K16 pick up these differences better than others

Another substantial difference is the west asian-east med like score north italians get compared to any iberians. If you like to compare you can look at k15:

http://oi68.tinypic.com/2vj60jk.jpg

And MDLP is totally useless, my Oracles are all incorrect. Compared with my k13 posted above this can't be right:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Provencal (Provence) 4.35
2 Portuguese (Portugal) 4.77
3 Spanish (Spain) 5.13
4 Swiss (Switzerland) 5.79
5 Italian (Friul) 6.52
6 Spanish (Baleares) 6.55
7 Italian (Bergamo) 6.82
8 Corsican (Corsica) 6.85
9 French (EastFrance) 6.92
10 French (NorthwestFrance) 7.3
11 Spanish (Extremadura) 7.69
12 German (Germany) 7.93
13 Spanish (Galicia) 7.94
14 Italian (NorthIitaly) 8.16
15 Romanian (Gorj) 8.76
16 Spanish (Cataluna) 8.93
17 Romanian (Apuseni) 8.99
18 German (SouthGermany) 9.01
19 Montenegrian (Montenegro) 9.06
20 Spanish (Murcia) 9.09

[Vid Flumina]

How about recent genetic drift(as shown by say Eurogenes K13) or PCA based spreadsheets(like Global 25 used in this thread). Do they also not count as evidence of the close relation between modern Celts and Germanics?

You won't find a single modern peer reviewed study who shows Celts and Germanics as far away from one and other autosomally.


PCA? That's not how you infer recent drift, unless it reflects some rare allele type of analysis..

[Percivalle]

Practically on all calculators there is such resemblance of western Iberians to north Italy. It must be sth real here. Maybe it is artificial because of similar components, don't know, but it is.

There is something in common in the Neolithic and Bronze Age, but for the rest, is like you said, artificial because of similar components.

[Leto]

@Grace, do you have Russians and Belorussians?

[Aren]

PCA? That's not how you infer recent drift, unless it reflects some rare allele type of analysis..

No I mean, Eurogenes K13 shows recent genetic drift, since it has modern based components.
But according to David, his Global25 is also very good at picking populations who share genetic drift.

[Vid Flumina]

No I mean, Eurogenes K13 shows recent genetic drift, since it has modern based components.
But according to David, his Global25 is also very good at picking populations who share genetic drift.

Nope, in fact he used a specifically designed PCA to highlight drift in Tollense warriors.

[Aren]

Nope, in fact he used a specifically designed PCA to highlight drift in Tollense warriors.

Yeah, it's obviously not as good as other methods, but still in his own words nMonte with his Global 25 spreadsheet is better at picking populations who share genetic drift than say qpAdm.
A quote from him on Anthrogenica


2) That qpAdm will produce more accurate ancestry estimates than G25/nMonte. Not necessarily, because it's a method that basically ignores recent drift, so if you're trying to discriminate between populations that have more or less the same ancient genetic structure, and only really differ in terms of recent drift, you're unlikely to get more accurate results than with the G25.
But either way we are drifting away from the main point: PCA plots, Gedmatch calculators with modern components and ancient admixture runs(either with nMonte or other tools) all show us a very close autosomal relation between modern day Germanics and Celts.

[Vid Flumina]

But either way we are drifting away from the main point: PCA plots, Gedmatch calculators with modern components and ancient admixture runs(either with nMonte or other tools) all show us a very close autosomal relation between modern day Germanics and Celts.

Basically any analysis that doesn't really focus on actual drift, good to know.

[kaltar]

No I mean, Eurogenes K13 shows recent genetic drift, since it has modern based components.
But according to David, his Global25 is also very good at picking populations who share genetic drift.

What is he supposed to say? My Global 25 is not good as I'm trying to make it appear. Global 25 is nothing but the umpteenth amateur tool. Not even the most precise.

[Aren]

Basically any analysis that doesn't really focus on actual drift, good to know.

What kind of analysis that really focuses on actual recent genetic drift do you have in mind?

[Vid Flumina]

What kind of analysis that really focuses on actual recent genetic drift do you have in mind?

This is what Davidski commented on his blog about his drift-specific analysis:


Not much point in doing that, as that PCA is mostly driven by broad ancient ancestry components, like ANE, CHG, WHG and basal. So the Welzin samples will simply be attracted to other samples with similar ratios of these components.

The PCA above is mostly based on Balto-Slavic specific drift, so even samples that have different ratios of ANE, CHG, WHG etc. cluster in the same Slavic zone if they have Slavic ancestry.

Also, formal stats tend to focus on deep phylogeny as well, rather than recent drift, even f3 stats do that, so they're not very good at picking up recent ethnic links.

Think of the PCA above as a type of ethnic rare allele analysis, and my usual West Eurasian PCA as a type of formal stats analysis.


http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/10/tollense-valley-bronze-age-warriors.html?showComment=1509046374277#c189068237 8037430366

[Aren]

This is what Davidski commented on his blog about his drift-specific analysis:



http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/10/tollense-valley-bronze-age-warriors.html?showComment=1509046374277#c189068237 8037430366

And in the same plot he refers to we see Irish plotting closely to Germanics.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-EbYlWXbGAjw/WhqJc3mhqRI/AAAAAAAAGSs/KPBmITJiZaos4v-R3231K5wNVaAtKzF_ACLcBGAs/s1600/Tollense_Valley_warrirors_PCA.png

[Vid Flumina]

And in the same plot he refers to we see Irish plotting closely to Germanics.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-EbYlWXbGAjw/WhqJc3mhqRI/AAAAAAAAGSs/KPBmITJiZaos4v-R3231K5wNVaAtKzF_ACLcBGAs/s1600/Tollense_Valley_warrirors_PCA.png

Slavs, French and some Finno-Ugrics too, ask yourself why.

[Aren]

Slavs, French and some Finno-Ugrics too, ask yourself why.

Are we looking at the same plot? Finns are far away from the Scandinavian cluster, although some Finland-Swedes are approaching the Germanic cluster. French overlap is not surprising and Western Slavs overlap with some eastern Germans and Austrians again no surprise there. But the most convincing overlap is between Irish and basically all Germanics. Dutch, Germans and Scandinavians not only the English. They are not identical though obviously.
You have to look at the core Germanic area which is northern Germany/Netherlands and south-central Scandinavia. This area is much closer to Irish than to either Slavs or Finns.
Here are three modern Danes alongside the two Anglo-Saxons, they are much much closer to Irish and French than to the core Finnish or Slavic clusters.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-UPugLg4YRR0/WhJOLcmPa9I/AAAAAAAAGQM/4IC1aazfNOEUZlts_xjoq7xFJGMSkVqiwCLcBGAs/s1600/Danes_vs_Anglo-Saxons.png

[Vid Flumina]

Are we looking at the same plot? Finns are far away from the Scandinavian cluster, although some Finland-Swedes are approaching the Germanic cluster.

So what are those blue dots between West Slavs and Germanics?



You have to look at the core Germanic area which is northern Germany/Netherlands and south-central Scandinavia. This area is much closer to Irish than to either Slavs or Finns.

That's not saying much and wasn't my point.
We already know that from patrilineal haplogroups, and this goes back to the old centum-satem split.



French overlap is not surprising and Western Slavs overlap with some eastern Germans and Austrians again no surprise there. But the most convincing overlap is between Irish and basically all Germanics. Dutch, Germans and Scandinavians not only the English. They are not identical though obviously.

Irish overlap only with English-speaking Britons and to a lesser degree heavily Belgae and Gaulish admixed Flemish/South Dutch/West Germans/Swiss, same goes for the French which extend their cluster due to Frankish and Norman input in some areas. This creates an illusion of overlap, when there's essentially none if we only consider Danes/Anglo-Saxons and pre-Viking Age Swede.
And those Celtic-admixed West Germanics are still closer to the Germanic core than Irish or French average, which is what any meaningful analysis should reflect.

[Grace O'Malley]

So what are those blue dots between West Slavs and Germanics?



That's not saying much and wasn't my point.
We already know that from patrilineal haplogroups, and this goes back to the old centum-satem split.



Irish overlap only with English-speaking Britons and to a lesser degree heavily Belgae and Gaulish admixed Flemish/South Dutch/West Germans/Swiss, same goes for the French which extend their cluster due to Frankish and Norman input in some areas. This creates an illusion of overlap, when there's essentially none if we only consider Danes/Anglo-Saxons and pre-Viking Age Swede.
And those Celtic-admixed West Germanics are still closer to the Germanic core than Irish or French average, which is what any meaningful analysis should reflect.

Irish don't overlap with Flemish/South Dutch/West Germans Swiss at all. They overlap with Scots, North Dutch, Norwegians. Any genetic plot I've seen shows that. Irish are largely descendants of British Bell Beaker who resemble Dutch Bell Beaker.

[Vid Flumina]

Irish don't overlap with Flemish/South Dutch/West Germans Swiss at all. They overlap with Scots, North Dutch, Norwegians. Any genetic plot I've seen shows that. Irish are largely descendants of British Bell Beaker who resemble Dutch Bell Beaker.

Again, this is a drift analysis.
Irish overlap with Scandinavians and North Dutch only at a deep ancestry level.

[Grace O'Malley]

Can you try Lebanese and Armenians please?

1 Lebanese_Christian:Average Druze Average 1.622
2 Lebanese_Christian:Average Lebanese_Druze Average 1.643
3 Lebanese_Christian:Average Cypriot Average 2.481
4 Lebanese_Christian:Average Lebanese_Muslim Average 2.504
5 Lebanese_Christian:Average Syrian_Jew Average 2.923
6 Lebanese_Christian:Average Samaritan Average 3.125
7 Lebanese_Christian:Average Iraqi_Jew Average 3.478
8 Lebanese_Christian:Average Tunisian_Jew Average 4.408
9 Lebanese_Christian:Average Iranian_Jew Average 4.492
10 Lebanese_Christian:Average Libyan_Jew Average 4.524
11 Lebanese_Christian:Average Sephardic_Jew Average 4.674
12 Lebanese_Christian:Average Palestinian Average 4.875
13 Lebanese_Christian:Average Greek_Central_Anatolia Average 4.903
14 Lebanese_Christian:Average Georgian_Jew Average 4.973
15 Lebanese_Christian:Average Iranian_Jew IranianJew1409 4.985
16 Lebanese_Christian:Average Italian_Jew Average 5.021
17 Lebanese_Christian:Average Assyrian Average 5.093
18 Lebanese_Christian:Average Armenian Average 5.669
19 Lebanese_Christian:Average Moroccan_Jew Average 5.768
20 Lebanese_Christian:Average Greek_Crete Average 5.929
21 Lebanese_Christian:Average Ashkenazi_Jew Average 6.08
22 Lebanese_Christian:Average Turkish_Trabzon Average 6.37
23 Lebanese_Christian:Average Greek_Trabzon Average 6.86
24 Lebanese_Christian:Average BedouinA Average 6.942
25 Lebanese_Christian:Average Maltese Average 6.985
26 Lebanese_Christian:Average Sicilian_East Average 7.312



1 Armenian:Average Assyrian Average 1.929
2 Armenian:Average Turkish_Trabzon Average 2.127
3 Armenian:Average Georgian_Jew Average 2.207
4 Armenian:Average Greek_Trabzon Average 2.385
5 Armenian:Average Iranian_Jew Average 3.398
6 Armenian:Average Iranian_Jew IranianJew1832 3.515
7 Armenian:Average Georgian_Jew GeorgianJew1971 3.521
8 Armenian:Average Georgian_Laz Average 3.971
9 Armenian:Average Iraqi_Jew Average 3.974
10 Armenian:Average Kurdish Average 4.421
11 Armenian:Average Druze Average 4.626
12 Armenian:Average Lebanese_Druze Average 4.654
13 Armenian:Average Turkish_Kayseri Average 5.169
14 Armenian:Average Lebanese_Muslim Average 5.209
15 Armenian:Average Cypriot Average 5.346
16 Armenian:Average Iranian_Lor Average 5.418
17 Armenian:Average Syrian_Jew Average 5.506
18 Armenian:Average Lebanese_Christian Average 5.669
19 Armenian:Average Azeri Average 5.845
20 Armenian:Average Azeri_Iran Average 5.887
21 Armenian:Average Turkish_Adana Average 5.903
22 Armenian:Average Georgian_Imer Average 5.992
23 Armenian:Average Iran_recent Average 6.019
24 Armenian:Average Iranian_Zoroastrian Average 6.378

[Grace O'Malley]

Again, this is a drift analysis.
Irish overlap with Scandinavians and North Dutch only at a deep ancestry level.

If populations plot together and show close distances they are obviously similar. What are you disputing here?

[Vid Flumina]

If populations plot together and show close distances they are obviously similar. What are you disputing here?

Go back to post #80

[Grace O'Malley]

Go back to post #80


Same Steppe/EEF ratio doesn't mean same people.

Germanic and Brythonic people have independent development since the Bronze Age..

That doesn't mean they aren't similar genetically though. They obviously are close populations and Germanics have had Celtic input and Celts have had Germanic input but they are similar populations anyway especially neighbouring populations.

[Grace O'Malley]

@Grace, do you have Russians and Belorussians?

They have about 6 different Russian regions so I just picked one.

1 Russian_Smolensk:Average Russian_Voronez Average 1.451
2 Russian_Smolensk:Average Ukrainian Average 1.773
3 Russian_Smolensk:Average Polish Average 2.063
4 Russian_Smolensk:Average Russian_Kursk Average 2.114
5 Russian_Smolensk:Average Cossack_Ukrainian Average 2.252
6 Russian_Smolensk:Average Avar_Hungary_Szolad Average 2.457
7 Russian_Smolensk:Average Lithuanian Average 2.534
8 Russian_Smolensk:Average Russian_Tver Average 2.63
9 Russian_Smolensk:Average Estonian Average 2.973
10 Russian_Smolensk:Average Latvian Average 3.667
11 Russian_Smolensk:Average Slovakian Average 4.166
12 Russian_Smolensk:Average Czech Average 4.202
13 Russian_Smolensk:Average Slavic_Bohemia Average 4.408
14 Russian_Smolensk:Average Russian_Kostroma Average 4.509
15 Russian_Smolensk:Average Cossack_Kuban Average 4.683
16 Russian_Smolensk:Average Ingrian Average 4.971
17 Russian_Smolensk:Average Finnish Average 5.021
18 Russian_Smolensk:Average Hungarian Average 5.217
19 Russian_Smolensk:Average Mordovian Average 5.253
20 Russian_Smolensk:Average Slovenian Average 5.282
21 Russian_Smolensk:Average Croatian Average 5.478

1 Belarusian:Average Russian_Voronez Average 1.517
2 Belarusian:Average Russian_Orel Average 1.647
3 Belarusian:Average Ukrainian Average 1.792
4 Belarusian:Average Russian_Kursk Average 1.884
5 Belarusian:Average Lithuanian Average 2.084
6 Belarusian:Average Cossack_Ukrainian Average 2.103
7 Belarusian:Average Polish Average 2.112
8 Belarusian:Average Russian_Tver Average 2.412
9 Belarusian:Average Estonian Average 2.559
10 Belarusian:Average Latvian Average 3.161
11 Belarusian:Average Slovakian Average 4.073
12 Belarusian:Average Czech Average 4.43
13 Belarusian:Average Russian_Kostroma Average 4.496
14 Belarusian:Average Slavic_Bohemia Average 4.64
15 Belarusian:Average Slavic_Bohemia RISE569 4.64
16 Belarusian:Average Cossack_Kuban Average 4.644
17 Belarusian:Average Ingrian Average 4.865
18 Belarusian:Average Finnish Average 5.023
19 Belarusian:Average Mordovian Average 5.212
20 Belarusian:Average Hungarian Average 5.464
21 Belarusian:Average Slovenian Average 5.528
22 Belarusian:Average Croatian Average 5.755

[Vid Flumina]

That doesn't mean they aren't similar genetically though. They obviously are close populations and Germanics have had Celtic input and Celts have had Germanic input but they are similar populations anyway especially neighbouring populations.

Similarity ends at a deep ancestry level, having some mixed groups bridging the gap doesn't mean anything.

Migration era Swede was as drifted from modern Irish as he was from ugric Hungarians.

[Grace O'Malley]

Similarity ends at a deep ancestry level, having some mixed groups partially bridging the gap doesn't mean anything.

Migration era Swede was as drifted from modern Irish as he is from ugric Hungarians.

Modern populations are very close genetically especially people like Irish, British, Dutch, Norwegians, Icelanders. Even Rathlin isn't exactly similar to modern day Irish people. Are you saying that genetic distance and closeness on genetic plots means nothing?

[Moje ime]

^ Thank you. It's interesting how we are closer to even the Eastern French, than we are to the Albanians :confused:

It's most interesting that we are closer to French and Germans than to east Europe (Russians Belorussians Poles are nowhere).


Here's the Serbs.

1 Serbian:Average Romanian Average 1.218
2 Serbian:Average Montenegrin Average 1.381
3 Serbian:Average Macedonian Average 1.541
4 Serbian:Average Bulgarian Average 1.917
5 Serbian:Average Bosnian Average 2.072
6 Serbian:Average Moldovan Average 2.402
7 Serbian:Average Croatian Average 2.945
8 Serbian:Average Slovenian Average 3.375
9 Serbian:Average Austrian Average 3.654
10 Serbian:Average Hungarian Average 3.699
11 Serbian:Average French_East Average 4.398
12 Serbian:Average Albanian Average 4.429
13 Serbian:Average Greek Average 4.663
14 Serbian:Average German Average 5.044
15 Serbian:Average French Average 5.052
16 Serbian:Average Czech Average 5.118
17 Serbian:Average Belgian Average 5.165
18 Serbian:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 5.203
19 Serbian:Average Slavic_Bohemia Average 5.571

[Vid Flumina]

Are you saying that genetic distance and closeness on genetic plots means nothing?

Far less relevant than drift.

Or do you seriously believe that a half Romanian half Cantabrian is closer to me than a Lombard (North Italian sample) or even a Tuscan?

https://i.imgur.com/O9TrTYk.png

[Grace O'Malley]

Far less relevant than drift.

Or do you seriously believe that a half Romanian half Cantabrian is closer to me than a Lombard (North Italian sample) or even a Tuscan?

https://i.imgur.com/O9TrTYk.png

Why bring up someone of a mixed population? A half Romanian and half Cantabrian is a result of recent mixture. Not the same as stable populations and where they plot.

[Grace O'Malley]

Can someone look at what British Bell Beakers are closest to with ancient populations? They have done this on Anthrogenica but the threads are too long to trawl through.

[Vid Flumina]

Why bring up someone of a mixed population? A half Romanian and half Cantabrian is a result of recent mixture. Not the same as stable populations and where they plot.

Recent or ancient such mixture will never be more related to a North Italian than other Central and North Italians.

[Grace O'Malley]

Recent or ancient mixture such mix would never be more related to a North Italian than other Central and North Italians.

Of course. But that isn't really relevant when looking at say North Italians and their relationship to other populations. Populations that have evolved since the bronze age into their own clusters have a long term history and you can look at what ancient populations e.g. Bell Beakers, European Farmers etc contributed to their makeup. You are bringing in someone of mixed ancestry to say they cluster with a group that they don't really share any ancestry with but that's not relevant when looking at long standing populations. For populations like the Irish to cluster closely with other modern populations they have to share similar origins to a large extent and they do. The Bronze Age populations that contributed to these modern groups were similar.

[Vid Flumina]

Of course. But that isn't really relevant when looking at say North Italians and their relationship to other populations. Populations that have evolved since the bronze age into their own clusters have a long term history and you can look at what ancient populations e.g. Bell Beakers, European Farmers etc contributed to their makeup. You are bringing in someone of mixed ancestry to say they cluster with a group that they don't really share any ancestry with but that's not relevant when looking at long standing populations. For populations like the Irish to cluster closely with other modern populations they have to share similar origins to a large extent and they do. The Bronze Age populations that contributed to these modern groups were similar.


Had that admixture event happened in the Bronze age he would still plot next to me because of deep ancestry (gross EEF, Steppe, WHG etc ratio), and he would still be just as unrelated to me compared to other Northern and Central Italians.

[Grace O'Malley]

Had that mixture happened in the Bronze age he would still plot next to me because of deep ancestry (gross EEF, Steppe, WHG etc ratio), and he would still be just as unrelated to me compared to other Northern and Central Italians.

This is really getting circular. Irish are naturally going to be close genetically to neighbouring populations. They aren't the result of recent admixture. North Italians are close to their neighbours as well.

Do you think populations like the Irish emerged differently than neighbouring populations? I'm really not sure what your argument is. Could you spell it out more clearly? We know historically that languages like Celtic and Germanic emerged after the Bronze Age so whether a population like the Irish speaks Celtic and a neighbouring population speaks Germanic it doesn't mean they are genetically similar.

[Grace O'Malley]

Here's a few models that were done for me. I'll post some Beaker models later.

1. All populations, not averaged:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic:NA15765 England_Anglo-Saxon:NO3423
1.138376 1.420880
Orcadian:HGDP00804 Icelandic:NA15759
1.465230 1.480405
Orcadian:HGDP00803 Orcadian:HGDP00797
1.507714 1.578195
Icelandic:NA15755 Icelandic:NA15766
1.589339 1.617622

Icelandic,40
Unetice,9.4
England_Roman,8.4
Orcadian,8.2
Scottish,5.6
Bell_Beaker_Germany,5.2
England_IA,4.6
English,4.6
England_Anglo-Saxon,4
Irish,3.4
Basque_Spanish,1
CWC_Baltic,1
Nordic_LN,1

2. All populations, averaged.

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic England_Roman England_Anglo-Saxon Orcadian
1.208832 1.264720 1.319895 1.320363
Bell_Beaker_Germany Scottish Irish English
1.340242 1.370887 1.423013 1.435015

Bell_Beaker_Germany,31
Icelandic,30.2
England_Roman,16
England_Anglo-Saxon,15.6
Irish,3.2
CWC_Baltic_early,1.4
Poltavka_outlier,1
Yamnaya_Samara,0.6
Scottish,0.4
Loschbour,0.2
North_Ossetian,0.2
Yamnaya_Kalmykia,0.2

3. Modern only, not averaged.

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic:NA15765 Orcadian:HGDP00804 Icelandic:NA15759 Orcadian:HGDP00803
1.138376 1.465230 1.480405 1.507714
Orcadian:HGDP00797 Icelandic:NA15755 Icelandic:NA15766 Austrian:Austria2
1.578195 1.589339 1.617622 1.619938

Icelandic,57
Orcadian,16
Scottish,9.6
Irish,7.2
English,3
Swedish,2
Austrian,1.2

4. Modern only, averaged.

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic Orcadian Scottish Irish English Norwegian Austrian Swedish
1.208832 1.320363 1.370887 1.423013 1.435015 1.602361 1.677917 1.710212

Icelandic,57.4
Scottish,13.2
Orcadian,11
English,5.2
Irish,4
Mezhovskaya,3.6
Scythian_Samara,1.6
Austrian,1.4

5. Ancients only, averaged.

> getMonte('Global_25_avg_ancient.txt','jessie_25.tx t')
[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
England_Roman England_Anglo-Saxon Bell_Beaker_Germany
1.264720 1.319895 1.340242
Ireland_EBA Unetice BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN
1.724514 1.758003 1.814249
England_IA Halberstadt_LBA
1.989758 2.251533


England_Anglo-Saxon,36.4
Bell_Beaker_Germany,31.4
England_Roman,29.8
Andronovo,0.8
CWC_Baltic_early,0.6
Poltavka_outlier,0.4
Blatterhole_HG,0.2
Srubnaya,0.2
Tanzania_Luxmanda_3000BP,0.2

[Peterski]

So what are those blue dots between West Slavs and Germanics?

Hungarians

[Vid Flumina]

This is really getting circular. Irish are naturally going to be close genetically to neighbouring populations. They aren't the result of recent admixture. North Italians are close to their neighbours as well.

Do you think populations like the Irish emerged differently than neighbouring populations? I'm really not sure what your argument is. Could you spell it out more clearly? We know historically that languages like Celtic and Germanic emerged after the Bronze Age so whether a population like the Irish speaks Celtic and a neighbouring population speaks Germanic it doesn't mean they are genetically similar.

My argument is that plot distance has its limitations and can be source of delusion..

[Peterski]

4 samples of the yellow triangle = me, parents, grandmother:
(interestingly I'm not halfway between parents, but drifted)

https://i.imgur.com/drcPO9t.png

https://i.imgur.com/drcPO9t.png

I also bought Global25 as well but not for grandmother so far.


North Italians are close to their neighbours as well.

But with exception of Slovenes, who are far away even from Veneto:

https://i.imgur.com/Z3NrUkn.png

https://i.imgur.com/Z3NrUkn.png

[Grace O'Malley]

My argument is that plot distance has its limitations and can be source of delusion..

Not if you understand the populations though. Most populations that plot close together will have reasons for this.

[Token]

Here's a few models that were done for me. I'll post some Beaker models later.

1. All populations, not averaged:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic:NA15765 England_Anglo-Saxon:NO3423
1.138376 1.420880
Orcadian:HGDP00804 Icelandic:NA15759
1.465230 1.480405
Orcadian:HGDP00803 Orcadian:HGDP00797
1.507714 1.578195
Icelandic:NA15755 Icelandic:NA15766
1.589339 1.617622

Icelandic,40
Unetice,9.4
England_Roman,8.4
Orcadian,8.2
Scottish,5.6
Bell_Beaker_Germany,5.2
England_IA,4.6
English,4.6
England_Anglo-Saxon,4
Irish,3.4
Basque_Spanish,1
CWC_Baltic,1
Nordic_LN,1

2. All populations, averaged.

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic England_Roman England_Anglo-Saxon Orcadian
1.208832 1.264720 1.319895 1.320363
Bell_Beaker_Germany Scottish Irish English
1.340242 1.370887 1.423013 1.435015

Bell_Beaker_Germany,31
Icelandic,30.2
England_Roman,16
England_Anglo-Saxon,15.6
Irish,3.2
CWC_Baltic_early,1.4
Poltavka_outlier,1
Yamnaya_Samara,0.6
Scottish,0.4
Loschbour,0.2
North_Ossetian,0.2
Yamnaya_Kalmykia,0.2

3. Modern only, not averaged.

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic:NA15765 Orcadian:HGDP00804 Icelandic:NA15759 Orcadian:HGDP00803
1.138376 1.465230 1.480405 1.507714
Orcadian:HGDP00797 Icelandic:NA15755 Icelandic:NA15766 Austrian:Austria2
1.578195 1.589339 1.617622 1.619938

Icelandic,57
Orcadian,16
Scottish,9.6
Irish,7.2
English,3
Swedish,2
Austrian,1.2

4. Modern only, averaged.

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic Orcadian Scottish Irish English Norwegian Austrian Swedish
1.208832 1.320363 1.370887 1.423013 1.435015 1.602361 1.677917 1.710212

Icelandic,57.4
Scottish,13.2
Orcadian,11
English,5.2
Irish,4
Mezhovskaya,3.6
Scythian_Samara,1.6
Austrian,1.4

5. Ancients only, averaged.

> getMonte('Global_25_avg_ancient.txt','jessie_25.tx t')
[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
England_Roman England_Anglo-Saxon Bell_Beaker_Germany
1.264720 1.319895 1.340242
Ireland_EBA Unetice BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN
1.724514 1.758003 1.814249
England_IA Halberstadt_LBA
1.989758 2.251533


England_Anglo-Saxon,36.4
Bell_Beaker_Germany,31.4
England_Roman,29.8
Andronovo,0.8
CWC_Baltic_early,0.6
Poltavka_outlier,0.4
Blatterhole_HG,0.2
Srubnaya,0.2
Tanzania_Luxmanda_3000BP,0.2
Honestly, your genome doesn't look Irish to me, you most certainly have some recent Scandinavian ancestry.

[FilhoV]

Here's a few models that were done for me. I'll post some Beaker models later.

1. All populations, not averaged:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic:NA15765 England_Anglo-Saxon:NO3423
1.138376 1.420880
Orcadian:HGDP00804 Icelandic:NA15759
1.465230 1.480405
Orcadian:HGDP00803 Orcadian:HGDP00797
1.507714 1.578195
Icelandic:NA15755 Icelandic:NA15766
1.589339 1.617622

Icelandic,40
Unetice,9.4
England_Roman,8.4
Orcadian,8.2
Scottish,5.6
Bell_Beaker_Germany,5.2
England_IA,4.6
English,4.6
England_Anglo-Saxon,4
Irish,3.4
Basque_Spanish,1
CWC_Baltic,1
Nordic_LN,1

2. All populations, averaged.

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic England_Roman England_Anglo-Saxon Orcadian
1.208832 1.264720 1.319895 1.320363
Bell_Beaker_Germany Scottish Irish English
1.340242 1.370887 1.423013 1.435015

Bell_Beaker_Germany,31
Icelandic,30.2
England_Roman,16
England_Anglo-Saxon,15.6
Irish,3.2
CWC_Baltic_early,1.4
Poltavka_outlier,1
Yamnaya_Samara,0.6
Scottish,0.4
Loschbour,0.2
North_Ossetian,0.2
Yamnaya_Kalmykia,0.2

3. Modern only, not averaged.

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic:NA15765 Orcadian:HGDP00804 Icelandic:NA15759 Orcadian:HGDP00803
1.138376 1.465230 1.480405 1.507714
Orcadian:HGDP00797 Icelandic:NA15755 Icelandic:NA15766 Austrian:Austria2
1.578195 1.589339 1.617622 1.619938

Icelandic,57
Orcadian,16
Scottish,9.6
Irish,7.2
English,3
Swedish,2
Austrian,1.2

4. Modern only, averaged.

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic Orcadian Scottish Irish English Norwegian Austrian Swedish
1.208832 1.320363 1.370887 1.423013 1.435015 1.602361 1.677917 1.710212

Icelandic,57.4
Scottish,13.2
Orcadian,11
English,5.2
Irish,4
Mezhovskaya,3.6
Scythian_Samara,1.6
Austrian,1.4

5. Ancients only, averaged.

> getMonte('Global_25_avg_ancient.txt','jessie_25.tx t')
[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
England_Roman England_Anglo-Saxon Bell_Beaker_Germany
1.264720 1.319895 1.340242
Ireland_EBA Unetice BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN
1.724514 1.758003 1.814249
England_IA Halberstadt_LBA
1.989758 2.251533


England_Anglo-Saxon,36.4
Bell_Beaker_Germany,31.4
England_Roman,29.8
Andronovo,0.8
CWC_Baltic_early,0.6
Poltavka_outlier,0.4
Blatterhole_HG,0.2
Srubnaya,0.2
Tanzania_Luxmanda_3000BP,0.2

I would love to have this done on mine who dono contact and what information do I give?

[Vid Flumina]

Not if you understand the populations though. Most populations that plot close together will have reasons for this.

You have to scientifically corroborate whatever you "understand", this is what drift analysis is for.

[Graham]

The scots population is from Argyll which is basically the area that the Irish Scots started their Kingdom from their seat of Dunadd and should always show up with Ireland.

[Grace O'Malley]

Honestly, your genome doesn't look Irish to me, you most certainly have some recent Scandinavian ancestry.

I don't have any known Scandinavian ancestry. Not sure why I would be different than other Irish people and I doubt I am really.

[Grace O'Malley]

I would love to have this done on mine who dono contact and what information do I give?

You would need to get your Global25 coordinates from Davidski at Eurogenes. You have to send him your raw dna data. It costs a small sum, from memory I think $20. Then either yourself or others can model you using nMonte. It is great fun.

[Kelmendasi]

Could you please do Albanians?

[Peterski]

I would love to have this done on mine who dono contact and what information do I give?

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/10/genetic-ancestry-online-store-to-be.html

[Token]

I don't have any known Scandinavian ancestry. Not sure why I would be different than other Irish people and I doubt I am really.
Global25 is pretty decent at detecting ethnic-specific genetic drift.

[Peterski]

Global25 is pretty decent at detecting ethnic-specific genetic drift.

Her Scandinavian ancestry is most consistent with Norwegian (based on my own analysis of her results), so rather not recent because there was no any recent Norwegian immigration to Ireland. It was during the Viking Age.

Maybe some areas of Ireland have elevated % of Norwegian.

[Token]

Her Scandinavian ancestry is most consistent with Norwegian (based on my own analysis of her results), so rather not recent because there was no any recent Norwegian immigration to Ireland. It was during the Viking Age.

Maybe some areas of Ireland have elevated % of Norwegian.

But there was to Australia.

[Grace O'Malley]

Her Scandinavian ancestry is most consistent with Norwegian (based on my own analysis of her results), so rather not recent because there was no any recent Norwegian immigration to Ireland. It was during the Viking Age.

Maybe some areas of Ireland have elevated % of Norwegian.

That's most likely why I come out closest to Icelandics on this but it is really difficult to know why there is a similarity. Not sure if I have elevated Norwegian compared to other Irish people. A lot of those populations aren't that distant genetically so possibly a bit more Steppe could push someone closer. Is that a possibility?

[Grace O'Malley]

But there was to Australia.

I'm Irish though. I was born in Dublin but my parents weren't from Dublin but the country.

[Peterski]

That's most likely why I come out closest to Icelandics

But Davidski in Global25 has all of Ireland as one region. I have averages for every region of Ireland. And in my nMonte run with regions of Ireland, you are closest to Ireland (I also have Iceland but it did not even appear in your top 8):

Your Closest Single Populations:

IE_Munster
IE_Connacht
IE_Dublin
GB_Orkney-Islands
GB_North-Wales
GB_South-Wales
IE_Galway
IE_Ulster

GraceOM, Mixed Mode (percentages):

IE_Munster 40.25
IE_Connacht 22.45
IE_Dublin 12.50
IE_Ulster 5.50

GB_Shetland 3.60
GB_Orkney-Islands 2.05
GB_Wales 1.20
GB_Cornwall 0.05

NO_Agder 8.05
NO_Midt-Norge 1.60
NO_Vestlandet 0.35
SE_Vastra-Gotaland 0.10

FR_Bretagne 1.00

PL_Kujawsko-Pomorskie 0.20
PL_Mazowieckie 0.10

RU_Volgograd 0.30
RU_Rostov 0.25
RU_Mordovia 0.15
RU_Smolensk 0.10
RU_Murom 0.05
RU_Tver 0.05

BY_Vitebsk 0.10

^^^
So around 10% of Scandinavian admixture and it is all Norwegian.

[Peterski]

I don't even think it is atypical for Irish.

In fact, your mother has more of Scandinavian admixture than you do.

But your mother also scored only Norway.

[Grace O'Malley]

But Davidski in Global25 has all of Ireland as one region. I have averages for every region of Ireland. And in my nMonte run with regions of Ireland, you are closest to Ireland (I also have Iceland but it did not even appear in your top 8):

Your Closest Single Populations:

IE_Munster
IE_Connacht
IE_Dublin
GB_Orkney-Islands
GB_North-Wales
GB_South-Wales
IE_Galway
IE_Ulster

GraceOM, Mixed Mode (percentages):

IE_Munster 40.25
IE_Connacht 22.45
IE_Dublin 12.50
IE_Ulster 5.50

GB_Shetland 3.60
GB_Orkney-Islands 2.05
GB_Wales 1.20
GB_Cornwall 0.05

NO_Agder 8.05
NO_Midt-Norge 1.60
NO_Vestlandet 0.35
SE_Vastra-Gotaland 0.10

FR_Bretagne 1.00

PL_Kujawsko-Pomorskie 0.20
PL_Mazowieckie 0.10

RU_Volgograd 0.30
RU_Rostov 0.25
RU_Mordovia 0.15
RU_Smolensk 0.10
RU_Murom 0.05
RU_Tver 0.05

BY_Vitebsk 0.10

^^^
So around 10% of Scandinavian admixture and it is all Norwegian.

Thanks for that. Not sure why I'm closest to Icelandic in Global25 but it pops up in all my results and is the single closest population. Your result makes sense because I'm half from Munster and half from Connacht. Thanks for doing this. It's terrific.

[Grace O'Malley]

I don't even think it is atypical for Irish.

In fact, your mother has more of Scandinavian admixture than you do.

But your mother also scored only Norway.

I never thought I was atypical anyway. My mother was from close to Limerick which was a Viking town so I presume that could be a possibility. There is really no way to know if there is anything unusual for an Irish person to have some connection like this. Norway is afterall the closest Scandinavian country and also along with Vikings Ireland had a lot of Gallowglass come in from Scottish Isles who were a Gael/Norse hybrid. Any Norse could come from either Vikings or Gallowglass.

Thank you though for doing this. It is really interesting. I know I'm very Irish as per paper trail.

[Peterski]

I don't know if we can trust this map, but if it is true, then there should be more of Norwegian Viking ancestry in Southern and South-Western Ireland than in North-Eastern or Northern Ireland:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3821/13276328613_2d6ee62e3e_b.jpg

[Token]

Thanks for that. Not sure why I'm closest to Icelandic in Global25 but it pops up in all my results and is the single closest population. Your result makes sense because I'm half from Munster and half from Connacht. Thanks for doing this. It's terrific.

Your excess Scandinavian vs Munchster and Connacht average can't be explained by Irish admixture. You are too much Norwegian to fit in any place of Ireland, this is why you come out closest to Icelanders.

[Grace O'Malley]

I don't know if we can trust this map, but if it is true, then there should be more of Norwegian Viking ancestry in Southern and South-Western Ireland than in North-Eastern or Northern Ireland:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3821/13276328613_2d6ee62e3e_b.jpg

It's not really conclusive but most of the major settlements were in Dublin (of course the biggest), Waterford was the first Viking settlement. The others were Wexford, Limerick and Cork. There were others though including one in Lough Ree which is up the River Shannon and closer to counties like Roscommon, Leitrim, Longford. There was also a graveyard found in Co Sligo. Forget to add one at Annagassen in Co. Louth.

The Insular Celtic paper stated:


To temporally anchor the major historical admixture events into Ireland we used GLOBETROTTER [23] with modern surrogate populations represented by 4,514 Europeans [24] and 1,973 individuals from the PoBI dataset [7], excluding individuals sampled from Northern Ireland. Of all the European populations considered, ancestral influence in Irish genomes was best represented by modern Scandinavians and northern Europeans, with a significant single-date one-source admixture event overlapping the historical period of the Norse-Viking settlements in Ireland (p < 0.01; fit quality FQB > 0.985; Fig 6). This was recapitulated to varying degrees in specific genetically- and geographically-defined groups within Ireland, with the strongest signals in south and central Leinster (the largest recorded Viking settlement in Ireland was Dubh linn in present-day Dublin), followed by Connacht and north Leinster/Ulster (S5 Fig; S6 Table).

They also found approximately 20% Norwegian admixture in the Irish.

[Peterski]

Your excess Scandinavian vs Munchster and Connacht average can't be explained by Irish admixture. You are too much Norwegian to fit in any place of Ireland, this is why you come out closest to Icelanders.

But question is also how representative are Davidski's averages?

For Poland, his average is too eastern, because he is not allowed to use Harvard's Human Origins Western Polish samples (I know he has them, but they cannot be used for commercial purposes, he had to sign a waiver and promise not to use them for his commercial tests before they allowed him to download them).

I think he is using only academic samples and this is a limitation.

[Grace O'Malley]

Your excess Scandinavian vs Munchster and Connacht average can't be explained by Irish admixture. You are too much Norwegian to fit in any place of Ireland, this is why you come out closest to Icelanders.

That's on the Global25 though. I think I match one of the Icelandic samples really well.

This is what I get with LukaszM's K36 nMonte.

nMonte3 (all references)
[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%" Ireland Wales Orkney Northern_Ireland 6.367810 6.811493 7.290053 8.080879 Scotland England_South-West Cumbria Dutch_Overijssel 8.935720 9.729106 10.094846 10.180054

Ireland,61.2
Scotland,17.2
Wales,14.8
Oberland(western_Ost_Preussen),3.4
Iceland,0.8
Dutch_Overijssel,0.6
Grenzmark,0.4
Norwegians,0.4
Dutch_Friesland,0.2
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern,0.2
Niedersachsen,0.2
Orkney,0.2
PL_North,0.2 Pommern,0.2

This is my plot.

http://i65.tinypic.com/sq4mdd.jpg

[Grace O'Malley]

But question is also how representative are Davidski's averages?

For Poland, his average is too eastern, because he is not allowed to use Harvard's Human Origins Western Polish samples (I know he has them, but they cannot be used for commercial purposes, he had to sign a waiver and promise not to use them for his commercial tests before they allowed him to download them).

I think he is using only academic samples and this is a limitation.

Yes it is only academic samples.

[Peterski]

Lukasz didn't give you any Norwegian, which is clearly wrong.

But then nMonte3 is worse for distant ancestry than nMonte2.


Yes it is only academic samples.

Yeah. I gave him permission to add my DNA to his references but he didn't. I meet the criterion of having 4 grandparents born within 80 km of each other (this is the criterion that the POBI study used for mapping genetics of the British Isles).


Iceland,0.8

Noise-level amount (okay, slightly above noise-level).

Remember that Iceland itself is a mix of Norway + Ireland/Britain.

[Token]

That's on the Global25 though. I think I match one of the Icelandic samples really well.

This is what I get with LukaszM's K36 nMonte.

nMonte3 (all references)
[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%" Ireland Wales Orkney Northern_Ireland 6.367810 6.811493 7.290053 8.080879 Scotland England_South-West Cumbria Dutch_Overijssel 8.935720 9.729106 10.094846 10.180054

Ireland,61.2
Scotland,17.2
Wales,14.8
Oberland(western_Ost_Preussen),3.4
Iceland,0.8
Dutch_Overijssel,0.6
Grenzmark,0.4
Norwegians,0.4
Dutch_Friesland,0.2
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern,0.2
Niedersachsen,0.2
Orkney,0.2
PL_North,0.2 Pommern,0.2

This is my plot.

http://i65.tinypic.com/sq4mdd.jpg

Can you see how you shift far away from Ireland towards Scandinavia? This model looks bad btw.

[Peterski]

Can you see how you shift far away from Ireland towards Scandinavia? This model looks bad btw.

Towards Norway, to be precise.

But everyone is going to shift in some direction because the dot is just average. If you plot every individual sample, it will look like this with dozens of dots:

https://i.imgur.com/btoC116.png

She is still closer to Ireland average than to Iceland average, though.

[Token]

Everyone is going to shift in some direction because the dot is just average. If you plot every individual sample, it will look like this with dozens of dots:

https://i.imgur.com/btoC116.png

She is still closer to Ireland average than to Iceland average, though.
Not that far. You can plot the most Scando shifted Irish samples from Irish DNA atlas and they will not be that far away. Grace is obviously mixed.

[Peterski]

Not that far. You can plot the most Scando shifted Irish samples from Irish DNA atlas and they will not be that far away. Grace is obviously mixed, if i had her coordinates i could show it to you.

Well I posted my model where she scores 10% Norway in nMonte.

This probably means 10% in excess of Irish average (if she had the same amount as average Irish, she would probably not score it - although it depends, because nMonte will model you as a mix of something + something, even if you are 100% identical as one of averages used). But yeah, the most Celtic Irish would probably score 0% Norway. Some Irish score several % of Iberian in nMonte instead.

=====

Anyway, it comes from Grace's mother. She scores even more Norway. As Grace wrote, her mother comes from a very Viking-influenced area.

[Grace O'Malley]

Could you please do Albanians?

1 Albanian:Average Greek Average 1.392
2 Albanian:Average Bulgarian Average 3.112
3 Albanian:Average Italian_Tuscan Average 3.212
4 Albanian:Average Macedonian Average 3.491
5 Albanian:Average Italian_Abruzzo Average 3.561
6 Albanian:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 3.81
7 Albanian:Average Romanian Average 3.846
8 Albanian:Average Italian_South Average 4.355
9 Albanian:Average Serbian Average 4.429
10 Albanian:Average Sicilian_West Average 4.553
11 Albanian:Average Montenegrin Average 4.717
12 Albanian:Average Sicilian_East Average 4.719
13 Albanian:Average Maltese Average 5.589
14 Albanian:Average Greek_Crete Average 5.788
15 Albanian:Average Ashkenazi_Jew Average 5.818
16 Albanian:Average Spanish_Andalucia Average 5.878
17 Albanian:Average Spanish_Murcia Average 6.057
18 Albanian:Average Bosnian Average 6.15
19 Albanian:Average Spanish_Extremadura Average 6.271
20 Albanian:Average Moldovan Average 6.375
21 Albanian:Average Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha Average 6.432
22 Albanian:Average Portuguese Average 6.49
23 Albanian:Average Spanish_Valencia Average 6.632
24 Albanian:Average Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon Average 6.695
25 Albanian:Average Spanish_Cataluna Average 6.713

[Peterski]

Grace's Mother gets a much higher % of Scandinavian:

NO_Midt-Norge 26.80
NO_Finnmark 1.30
NO_Agder 1.00
NO_Vestlandet 0.25

Total: ca. 29% Norway (compared to 10% for Grace)

She also scores (which has some Scando influences):

GB_Shetland 8.90

And Grace's Mother does not score any Connacht.

She is from Munster, right ??? DNA confirms this.

[Grace O'Malley]

Grace's Mother gets a much higher % of Scandinavian:

NO_Midt-Norge 26.80
NO_Finnmark 1.30
NO_Agder 1.00
NO_Vestlandet 0.25

Total: ca. 29% Norway (compared to 10% for Grace)

She also scores (which has some Scando influences):

GB_Shetland 8.90

Possibly influences from the Limerick Vikings? Or maybe Normans. There is a Norman castle in her area. That's quite a bit though.:confused:

[Peterski]

Possibly influences from the Limerick Vikings? Or maybe Normans. There is a Norman castle in her area. That's quite a bit though.:confused:

Well, I sent you before her full results via PM.

Would the Normans be genetically Norwegian-like, though?

I guess it can be a mix of Viking + Norman, but more Viking.

=====

Is there any known recent Scottish ancestry in your family tree?

[Peterski]

But I think that modern Norwegians also have some British/Irish admixture. The movement of people was not one-sided it was actually in both directions.

Haplogroups definitely indciate that there is some British admix in Norway.

[Grace O'Malley]

Well, I sent you before her full results via PM.

Would the Normans be genetically Norwegian-like, though?

I guess it can be a mix of Viking + Norman, but more Viking.

=====

Is there any known recent Scottish ancestry in your family tree?

Not on my mother's side but my father's side has some Scots surnames. She has a possible Norman surname in her family tree. I don't know if you can take this stuff as gospel though. The problem with Irish genealogical research is that it is limited as a lot of records were destroyed when the Four Courts burned down because the IRA stored firearms there. (Ah Irish history. :)) Anyway most people can only go back to the early 1800s late 1700s so very difficult to find ancestors before then. You might possibly be able to look at church records which could go back further. That's something I might do in the future.

[Grace O'Malley]

Grace's Mother gets a much higher % of Scandinavian:

NO_Midt-Norge 26.80
NO_Finnmark 1.30
NO_Agder 1.00
NO_Vestlandet 0.25

Total: ca. 29% Norway (compared to 10% for Grace)

She also scores (which has some Scando influences):

GB_Shetland 8.90

And Grace's Mother does not score any Connacht.

She is from Munster, right ??? DNA confirms this.

Yes she is from North Munster with all her known family from there.

[Peterski]

Yes she is from North Munster with all her known family from there.

It is funny, the Irish are pretty homogenous and when I plot them individually, people from different regions overlap in PCA. But when I average samples from each region, and then use these averages, you actually get accurate results and people from Munster usually don't score Connacht (usually it is accurate down to regions).

I don't even fully understand why it works so well. :)

I guess two-dimensional PCA graphs just don't capture all of variation.

If you have for example 25 (like Global25) or 36 admixtures, you would need 25 or 36 dimensions to capture all of genetic diversity. And it is impossible to visualize.

Even a PCA in 3D will have only 3 dimensions, not 25...

In any PCA graph, PC1 and PC2 (two "strongest" components) usually capture only around 50% of variation. It depends on how many PCs there are in total.

[Grace O'Malley]

It is funny, the Irish are pretty homogenous and when I plot them individually, people from different regions overlap in PCA. But when I average samples from each region, and then use these averages, you actually get accurate results and people from Munster don't score Connacht.

I don't even know why it works so well. :)

I guess two-dimensional PCA graphs just don't capture all of variation.

If you have for example 25 (like Global25) or 36 admixtures, you would need 25 or 36 dimensions to capture all of genetic diversity. And it is impossible to visualize.

Even a PCA in 3D will have only 3 dimensions, not 25...

From the Irish DNA Atlas and also Insular Celtic paper Munster is a bit more distinct from the other Irish regions with South Munster being the most distinct and then North Munster. Connacht overlaps with Leinster for some reason.

[Token]

Grace's Mother gets a much higher % of Scandinavian:

NO_Midt-Norge 26.80
NO_Finnmark 1.30
NO_Agder 1.00
NO_Vestlandet 0.25

Total: ca. 29% Norway (compared to 10% for Grace)

She also scores (which has some Scando influences):

GB_Shetland 8.90

And Grace's Mother does not score any Connacht.

She is from Munster, right ??? DNA confirms this.

Post the entire model, what Irish populations you used as outgroups?

[Slavic Italian]

But question is also how representative are Davidski's averages?

For Poland, his average is too eastern, because he is not allowed to use Harvard's Human Origins Western Polish samples (I know he has them, but they cannot be used for commercial purposes, he had to sign a waiver and promise not to use them for his commercial tests before they allowed him to download them).

I think he is using only academic samples and this is a limitation.

What do you mean by too eastern? I'm assuming you mean there is Russian influence like you mentioned during our conversation?

[Geni]

1 Albanian:Average Greek Average 1.392
2 Albanian:Average Bulgarian Average 3.112
3 Albanian:Average Italian_Tuscan Average 3.212
4 Albanian:Average Macedonian Average 3.491
5 Albanian:Average Italian_Abruzzo Average 3.561
6 Albanian:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 3.81
7 Albanian:Average Romanian Average 3.846
8 Albanian:Average Italian_South Average 4.355
9 Albanian:Average Serbian Average 4.429
10 Albanian:Average Sicilian_West Average 4.553
11 Albanian:Average Montenegrin Average 4.717
12 Albanian:Average Sicilian_East Average 4.719
13 Albanian:Average Maltese Average 5.589
14 Albanian:Average Greek_Crete Average 5.788
15 Albanian:Average Ashkenazi_Jew Average 5.818
16 Albanian:Average Spanish_Andalucia Average 5.878
17 Albanian:Average Spanish_Murcia Average 6.057
18 Albanian:Average Bosnian Average 6.15
19 Albanian:Average Spanish_Extremadura Average 6.271
20 Albanian:Average Moldovan Average 6.375
21 Albanian:Average Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha Average 6.432
22 Albanian:Average Portuguese Average 6.49
23 Albanian:Average Spanish_Valencia Average 6.632
24 Albanian:Average Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon Average 6.695
25 Albanian:Average Spanish_Cataluna Average 6.713

Thank you...hm...for the greeks we know all...but I always had the doubt that we have much more to do with bulgarians....and is true.. and i go with greecs here to se the difference...

1 Greek:Average Albanian Average 1.392
2 Greek:Average Italian_Tuscan Average 2.851
3 Greek:Average Italian_Abruzzo Average 2.934
4 Greek:Average Bulgarian Average 3.181
5 Greek:Average Macedonian Average 3.541
6 Greek:Average Italian_South Average 3.681
7 Greek:Average Sicilian_West Average 3.987
8 Greek:Average Romanian Average 4.026
9 Greek:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 4.047
10 Greek:Average Sicilian_East Average 4.299
11 Greek:Average Serbian Average 4.663
12 Greek:Average Montenegrin Average 4.918
13 Greek:Average Maltese Average 4.928
14 Greek:Average Greek_Crete Average 5.013
15 Greek:Average Maros Average 5.115
16 Greek:Average Ashkenazi_Jew Average 5.191
17 Greek:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 5.68
18 Greek:Average Spanish_Andalucia Average 5.935
19 Greek:Average Spanish_Murcia Average 6.088
20 Greek:Average Spanish_Extremadura Average 6.143
21 Greek:Average Bosnian Average 6.329
22 Greek:Average Portuguese Average 6.419
23 Greek:Average Moldovan Average 6.555
24 Greek:Average Spanish_Galicia Average 6.563
25 Greek:Average Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon Average 6.743
26 Greek:Average Spanish_Cataluna Average 6.839

[Graham]

Would be interesting to have Normandy, Brittany, Friesland and Western Norway in comparison to how close the British Isles are to one another. Frisian being the closest living language to English and Brittany with the language links to Welsh. To try and get away from the big political constructs and get deeper into regions.

Can't beat about a couple of dozen Angle samples, twenty odd saxon, twenty odd Britons, twenty odd Gaels, Picts etc.. :P


Scottish

1 Scottish:Average Irish Average 0.683
2 Scottish:Average Orcadian Average 0.716
3 Scottish:Average English Average 0.763
4 Scottish:Average English_Cornwall Average 1.044
5 Scottish:Average Dutch Average 1.163
6 Scottish:Average Shetlandic Average 1.374
7 Scottish:Average Welsh Average 1.474
8 Scottish:Average Icelandic Average 1.613
9 Scottish:Average Norwegian Average 1.82
10 Scottish:Average Swedish Average 2.406
11 Scottish:Average German Average 2.416
12 Scottish:Average Belgian Average 2.837

Irish

1 Irish:Average Scottish Average 0.683
2 Irish:Average Orcadian Average 1.062
3 Irish:Average English Average 1.122
4 Irish:Average English_Cornwall Average 1.334
5 Irish:Average Shetlandic Average 1.39
6 Irish:Average Welsh Average 1.399
7 Irish:Average Dutch Average 1.589
8 Irish:Average Icelandic Average 1.69
9 Irish:Average Norwegian Average 1.95
10 Irish:Average Swedish Average 2.701
11 Irish:Average German Average 2.842
12 Irish:Average Belgian Average 3.076

English

1 English:Average English_Cornwall Average 0.661
2 English:Average Scottish Average 0.763
3 English:Average Orcadian Average 1.091
4 English:Average Irish Average 1.122
5 English:Average Dutch Average 1.302
6 English:Average Welsh Average 1.618
7 English:Average Shetlandic Average 1.804
8 English:Average Icelandic Average 1.955
9 English:Average German Average 2.205
10 English:Average Norwegian Average 2.222
11 English:Average Belgian Average 2.437
12 English:Average Swedish Average 2.652

[Lucas]

Lukasz didn't give you any Norwegian, which is clearly wrong.

But then nMonte3 is worse for distant ancestry than nMonte2.



You use depreciated nMonte2 which every one on Anthrogenica abandoned. You can't be sure that your calculation with highe rNorwegian is better because what is your proof for that? She doesn't have paper trail with Norwegian. So we can only speculate and nothing more.

Her tests was done in February, since that time I updated Irish average for example, among many others.

Her results with standard nMonte3 now

Ireland 0.6528200
Wales 0.7176764
Orkney 0.7279544
Scotland 0.8003363
Northern_Ireland 0.8076631
Cumbria 0.9422963
SW_England 0.9920268
NL_Overijssel 1.0176065
NW_England 1.0434018
NE_England 1.0658183


distance%=0.6354"

Ireland,77 (adding your Irish regions we have practically the same value)
Wales,12.6
Orkney,3.6
Iceland,2.2
NL_Overijssel,1.6
Norway_west,0.6
NL_Drenthe,0.4
Northern_Ireland,0.4
Norway_central,0.4
Grenzmark,0.2
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern,0.2
NL_Friesland,0.2
Norway_south-east,0.2
Pommern,0.2
Ukraine_Western,0.2


Certainly her possible Scandinavian is 1000 years old, so standard nMonte3 is showing recent geneflow where British and Irish have some Scandinavian already and it is "eaten" by those averages.


But nMonte3 with penalization=0 in K36 works like old nMonte2 to some extent and shows deeper ancestry, ignoring recent drift.

"distance%=0.6189"

Ireland,80.2
Iceland,12 (my Iceland average instead of your is made form academic samples, the same what Davidski uses)
Grenzmark,4.2
NL_Drenthe,2.2
SV_Gotaland,0.6
Georgia_Svans,0.4
Norway_north,0.2
Wales,0.2

But as we could be quite sure there isn't returning geneflow between Iceland and Ireland (only the opposite) we can easily remove Iceland from this model which was obviously proxy for Scandinavian. Also north Dutch is unnecessary because it overlap with Scandiavian in her case fro sure.

Ireland,84.8
SV_Gotaland,8
Grenzmark,3.2
Norway_north,1.4
Norway_central,1.2
Wales,0.6
Georgia_Svans,0.4
Northern_Ireland,0.4

Leaving from Scandinavia only Norway as most probable source of Scando ancestry for Ireland, and removing also Eastern Germans.

But it may not be valid because on Iceland (and it was your first proxy in nMonte with pen=0 for Scando ancestry), especially in northern part there was substantial Swedish settlement. This is map showing places from Landnambok indicating which Vikings settled there. All different triangles for Swedish or mixed Swedish ancestry.

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/statystyki/Europa/Islandia/151.jpg



But anyway nMonte without it.


"distance%=0.6262"

Ireland,86.4
Norway_central,10.6
Wales,1.6
Norway_north,0.8
Georgia_Svans,0.6





Shetland and Orcadian for her in your model where just some transitional averages between Ireland and Scandinavia and in mine were dropped by nMonte, not by me. As she has possibly only Irish and some very old, submerged Norwegian ancestry. Which is now incorporated into Irish autosomal pool. So standard nMonte3 doesn't detect it, only with pen=0 option.

[Teucer]

Could you post the data for Cypriots please?

[Grace O'Malley]

You use depreciated nMonte2 which every one on Anthrogenica abandoned. You can't be sure that your calculation with highe rNorwegian is better because what is your proof for that? She doesn't have paper trail with Norwegian. So we can only speculate and nothing more.

Her tests was done in February, since that time I updated Irish average for example, among many others.

Her results with standard nMonte3 now

Ireland 0.6528200
Wales 0.7176764
Orkney 0.7279544
Scotland 0.8003363
Northern_Ireland 0.8076631
Cumbria 0.9422963
SW_England 0.9920268
NL_Overijssel 1.0176065
NW_England 1.0434018
NE_England 1.0658183


distance%=0.6354"

Ireland,77 (adding your Irish regions we have practically the same value)
Wales,12.6
Orkney,3.6
Iceland,2.2
NL_Overijssel,1.6
Norway_west,0.6
NL_Drenthe,0.4
Northern_Ireland,0.4
Norway_central,0.4
Grenzmark,0.2
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern,0.2
NL_Friesland,0.2
Norway_south-east,0.2
Pommern,0.2
Ukraine_Western,0.2


Certainly her possible Scandinavian is 1000 years old, so standard nMonte3 is showing recent geneflow where British and Irish have some Scandinavian already and it is "eaten" by those averages.


But nMonte3 with penalization=0 in K36 works like old nMonte2 to some extent and shows deeper ancestry, ignoring recent drift.

"distance%=0.6189"

Ireland,80.2
Iceland,12 (my Iceland average instead of your is made form academic samples, the same what Davidski uses)
Grenzmark,4.2
NL_Drenthe,2.2
SV_Gotaland,0.6
Georgia_Svans,0.4
Norway_north,0.2
Wales,0.2

But as we could be quite sure there isn't returning geneflow between Iceland and Ireland (only the opposite) we can easily remove Iceland from this model which was obviously proxy for Scandinavian. Also north Dutch is unnecessary because it overlap with Scandiavian in her case fro sure.

Ireland,84.8
SV_Gotaland,8
Grenzmark,3.2
Norway_north,1.4
Norway_central,1.2
Wales,0.6
Georgia_Svans,0.4
Northern_Ireland,0.4

Leaving from Scandinavia only Norway as most probable source of Scando ancestry for Ireland, and removing also Eastern Germans.

But it may not be valid because on Iceland (and it was your first proxy in nMonte with pen=0 for Scando ancestry), especially in northern part there was substantial Swedish settlement. This is map showing places from Landnambok indicating which Vikings settled there. All different triangles for Swedish or mixed Swedish ancestry.

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/statystyki/Europa/Islandia/151.jpg



But anyway nMonte without it.


"distance%=0.6262"

Ireland,86.4
Norway_central,10.6
Wales,1.6
Norway_north,0.8
Georgia_Svans,0.6





Shetland and Orcadian for her in your model where just some transitional averages between Ireland and Scandinavia and in mine were dropped by nMonte, not by me. As she has possibly only Irish and some very old, submerged Norwegian ancestry. Which is now incorporated into Irish autosomal pool. So standard nMonte3 doesn't detect it, only with pen=0 option.

Thanks for doing this. It is great that you can look at deep ancestry if anyone is interesting in looking at that for themselves.

[Sikeliot]

I don't know if we can trust this map, but if it is true, then there should be more of Norwegian Viking ancestry in Southern and South-Western Ireland than in North-Eastern or Northern Ireland:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3821/13276328613_2d6ee62e3e_b.jpg


According to the Insular Celtic paper, it is not so-- the largest Scandinavian input into Ireland is first in Leinster (East), Connacht (West), and then Ulster (North) with Munster having the least, however it also said in Ulster it is not from Vikings but from the British planters (must mean there is a Danish shift versus Norwegian, as Britain has more Danish).

[Grace O'Malley]

According to the Insular Celtic paper, it is not so-- the largest Scandinavian input into Ireland is first in Leinster (East), Connacht (West), and then Ulster (North) with Munster having the least, however it also said in Ulster it is not from Vikings but from the British planters (must mean there is a Danish shift versus Norwegian, as Britain has more Danish).

Places like Ulster (incl Donegal) had lots of Scots and also Gallowglass so there must be some deep Norwegian from the Viking times in there as well.

[Sikeliot]

Places like Ulster (incl Donegal) had lots of Scots and also Gallowglass so there must be some deep Norwegian from the Viking times in there as well.

True. But it seems to me like Munster, as a province, has the least Scandinavian input and probably the least British as well overall, both English and Scottish. It is possible that this is different in Limerick, Waterford, and Tipperary though.

But Kerry and Cork at least should not have as much Scandinavian.

[Sikeliot]

Thank you...hm...for the greeks we know all...but I always had the doubt that we have much more to do with bulgarians....and is true.. and i go with greecs here to se the difference...

1 Greek:Average Albanian Average 1.392
2 Greek:Average Italian_Tuscan Average 2.851
3 Greek:Average Italian_Abruzzo Average 2.934
4 Greek:Average Bulgarian Average 3.181
5 Greek:Average Macedonian Average 3.541
6 Greek:Average Italian_South Average 3.681
7 Greek:Average Sicilian_West Average 3.987
8 Greek:Average Romanian Average 4.026
9 Greek:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 4.047
10 Greek:Average Sicilian_East Average 4.299
11 Greek:Average Serbian Average 4.663
12 Greek:Average Montenegrin Average 4.918
13 Greek:Average Maltese Average 4.928
14 Greek:Average Greek_Crete Average 5.013
15 Greek:Average Maros Average 5.115
16 Greek:Average Ashkenazi_Jew Average 5.191
17 Greek:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 5.68
18 Greek:Average Spanish_Andalucia Average 5.935
19 Greek:Average Spanish_Murcia Average 6.088
20 Greek:Average Spanish_Extremadura Average 6.143
21 Greek:Average Bosnian Average 6.329
22 Greek:Average Portuguese Average 6.419
23 Greek:Average Moldovan Average 6.555
24 Greek:Average Spanish_Galicia Average 6.563
25 Greek:Average Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon Average 6.743
26 Greek:Average Spanish_Cataluna Average 6.839


Greek and Albanian lists are very similar, the only difference is Greece is slightly more Tuscan-like.

[Grace O'Malley]

True. But it seems to me like Munster, as a province, has the least Scandinavian input and probably the least British as well overall, both English and Scottish. It is possible that this is different in Limerick, Waterford, and Tipperary though.

But Kerry and Cork at least should not have as much Scandinavian.

Yes I tend to go with what academic publications like the IDA and Insular paper say but Cork was also a Viking settlement.


Cork was a significant centre for Vikings in Ireland with an urban centre that predates the Viking settlement in Waterford, a new report on the excavation of the city’s event centre has revealed.

According to the report by Cork City Council executive archaeologist, Joanne Hughes, the latest discoveries at the South Main Street site confirm Cork’s significance in the Hiberno-Norse world.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/viking-centre-discovered-in-cork-city-predates-waterford-settlement-1.3350654

I think the percentages in the IDA and Insular Celtic studies are not that much different across all the areas as all the areas of Ireland have very small differences between them.

[Peterski]

What do you mean by too eastern? I'm assuming you mean there is Russian influence like you mentioned during our conversation?

I mean that he is using only North-East Poles because only such samples are available. And they represent just 1/5 of Polish population. If we go back to year 1900, there were within present-day borders of Poland:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/design/Poland_regional_DNA_project.png

1. Western regions* had 4.1 million ethnic Poles
2. Southern regions** had 5.6 million ethnic Poles
3. North-East regions*** had 3.0 million ethnic Poles (1/5)
4. Central Poland region had 1.0 million ethnic Poles

*Greater Poland, North Poland, Kashubia, Upper Silesia
**Lesser Poland, Polish Mountains and Red Ruthenia
***Masovia, Sudovia-Podlachia and Warmia-Masuria

All in all within present-day Poland there were 14 million ethnic Poles in 1900 (further 6+ million lived elsewhere including Eastern Europe and Diaspora in America). In the Russian Empire there were up to 10 million Poles and 4 million each in German and Austro-Hungarian Empires. 2 million in the USA.

These are figures for around year 1900.

[Sikeliot]

Yes I tend to go with what academic publications like the IDA and Insular paper say but Cork was also a Viking settlement.

When I say Cork I mean the county overall.

[Percivalle]

Greek and Albanian lists are very similar, the only difference is Greece is slightly more Tuscan-like.

Greek average is based on northern Greeks from Thessaloniki though.

[Pubiczar]

Greek average is based on northern Greeks from Thessaloniki though.

That's not true.
People around Thessaloniki are not closer to Tuscans than Bulgarians or Macedonians.
People from Epirus are tho, and these samples might be Epirotans.

[Percivalle]

That's not true.
People around Thessaloniki are not closer to Tuscans than Bulgarians or Macedonians.
People from Epirus are tho, and these samples might be Epirotans.

In fact Global 25 is not accurate, but Greek average is based on 19 individuals, and 14 out of 19 belong to GREEKGRALPOP sample from Thessaloniki. It's a fact.

[Lucas]

In fact Global 25 is not accurate, but Greek average is based on 19 individuals, and 14 out of 19 belong to GREEKGRALPOP sample from Thessaloniki. It's a fact.

Yes, everybody could check it. Individual samples are provided in second spreadsheet.

There is also Cretan average based on 3 samples. Greek Anatolians based on 3 and Greek Trabzon (9) . I'm really curious from what source he took those last two groups. Is there is any study regarding Anatolian Greeks? I had them in my K36 Ancestral Report dataset but from Gedmatch, provided by Turkish user who made averages for all Turkish regions. But would be interestoing to confront them with academic samples.

[Pubiczar]

In fact Global 25 is not accurate, but Greek average is based on 19 individuals, and 14 out of 19 belong to GREEKGRALPOP sample from Thessaloniki. It's a fact.

Than why people even bother to pay someone 12 euros or similar?
I will never again pay money to these Polish "scientist", just to tell me that I am closer to Thessalians and Albanians rather than Macedonians!
Bulshit...
He's got 12 samples from some people (who he can't know if their distant ancestors migrated from somewhere else) and he thinks he got the whole picture...
The DNA of people is not the same in whole country but that doesn't mean I am less Macedonian.
He needs way more samples to make an average not just 12 samples.
And I don't need this global crap to know what I am.
And certainly those from around Thessaloniki are not closer to Tuscans than to their neighbors.
If the remaining 5 samples are from Crete for example than the Greek average is not based on Northern Greeks from Thessaloniki.
That's a fact!

[Sikeliot]

In fact Global 25 is not accurate, but Greek average is based on 19 individuals, and 14 out of 19 belong to GREEKGRALPOP sample from Thessaloniki. It's a fact.

All of mainland Greece is fairly similar except for Athens and a few isolated regions in the Peloponnese.

[Percivalle]

Yes, everybody could check it. Individual samples are provided in second spreadsheet.

Indeed.



There is also Cretan average based on 3 samples. Greek Anatolians based on 3 and Greek Trabzon (9) . I'm really curious from what source he took those last two groups. Is there is any study regarding Anatolian Greeks? I had them in my K36 Ancestral Report dataset but from Gedmatch, provided by Turkish user who made averages for all Turkish regions. But would be interestoing to confront them with academic samples.


Yes, Cretan average on three samples. Lukas, ask Onur Dincer. He should know what is the source of Greek Anatolians.

I think there have been studies in the past on the Greeks of Anatolia. I remember seeing them mentioned in some old paper. I try to remember which study it is and send you a message.




He's got 12 samples from some people (who he can't know if their distant ancestors migrated from somewhere else) and he thinks he got the whole picture...
The DNA of people is not the same in whole country but that doesn't mean I am less Macedonian.
He needs way more samples to make an average not just 12 samples.
And I don't need this global crap to know what I am.

I'm glad you know what you're. Not only this sample, but also many other academic samples may be inaccurate. The Tuscan average on G25 is based on a sample of individuals who have 3 out of 4 grandparents born in Tuscany. Just as one example.



And certainly those from around Thessaloniki are not closer to Tuscans than to their neighbors.
If the remaining 5 samples are from Crete for example than the Greek average is not based on Northern Greeks from Thessaloniki.
That's a fact!


In the spreadsheet is clearly reported that 14 out of 19 belong to GREEKGRALPOP sample from Thessaloniki. The remaining 5 samples are not from Crete. Crete has its own average. Of course Thessaloniki should not be closer to Tuscans, being the latter are clearly more western. But not my fault.

[Sikeliot]

In the spreadsheet is clearly reported that 14 out of 19 belong to GREEKGRALPOP sample from Thessaloniki. The remaining 5 samples are not from Crete. Crete has its own average. Of course Thessaloniki should not be closer to Tuscans, being the latter are clearly more western. But not my fault.

They came up closer to Albanian first actually, then Tuscan. Only after those, did we start seeing Balkan Slavs and southern Italians.

[Percivalle]

All of mainland Greece is fairly similar except for Athens and a few isolated regions in the Peloponnese.

Agreed.



Greek Anatolians based on 3 and Greek Trabzon (9) .

Looking at their names on the spreadsheet, they do not correspond to anything used in the studies. Could be these samples provided by some private user? But 9 individuals for Greek_Trabzon are too many for being provided by some user.

Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25001

Greek_Trabzon:G25001

[Lucas]

Agreed.




Looking at their names on the spreadsheet, they do not correspond to anything used in the studies. Could be these samples provided by some private user? But 9 individuals for Greek_Trabzon are too many for being provided by some user.

Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25001

Greek_Trabzon:G25001

Yes, I have the same number of Anatolian Greek samples when I checked now in spreadsheet. So it must be the same private source.

[Karol Klačansky]

Can you do slovakia and the Czech Republic?

[Karol Klačansky]

My Global 25 results

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Yamnaya_Samara Armenia_EBA Tepecik_Ciftlik_N Barcin_N
15.77157 20.73201 21.05917 21.98810
Levant_N WHG Ganj_Dareh_N Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
22.36109 31.70959 33.33786 38.09677

Karol scaled
Yamnaya_Samara,46.4
Barcin_N,36.4
WHG,17.2

now with modern populations included
[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Slovakian Czech Slavic_Bohemia Polish Hungarian German
2.354768 3.364584 3.818326 3.893108 4.006113 4.036149
Swedish Poprad
4.041298 4.185271

Karol_scaled

Slovakian,47.2
Cossack_Kuban,19.4
Poprad,17.6
Petrovka_MLBA,5.4
Sweden_MN,4.6
Iron_Gates_HG,3
Hungary_LCA,1.8
Blatterhole_HG,0.8
Anc_Finn,0.2

First calculator to accurately detect my slovak ancestry, though I dont understand how im closer related to germans or poles than the sample from Poprad? (what kind of sample is that?)

PCAS
https://preview.ibb.co/ka07zz/G25_Northern_Europe_PCA.png (https://ibb.co/m0thXK)
https://preview.ibb.co/m2jHzz/G25_Europe_scaled.png (https://ibb.co/jqZvme)

Overall the Calc looks pretty dang accurate and the PCAs represent my ancestry really well. I really like also how he created a PCA for just northern europeans as well really allows one to see detail. PCAs including especially MENA populations on it are pointless for me and totally distort my placement on PCAs.

[Karol Klačansky]

My Global 25 results

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Yamnaya_Samara Armenia_EBA Tepecik_Ciftlik_N Barcin_N
15.77157 20.73201 21.05917 21.98810
Levant_N WHG Ganj_Dareh_N Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
22.36109 31.70959 33.33786 38.09677

Karol scaled
Yamnaya_Samara,46.4
Barcin_N,36.4
WHG,17.2

now with modern populations included
[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Slovakian Czech Slavic_Bohemia Polish Hungarian German
2.354768 3.364584 3.818326 3.893108 4.006113 4.036149
Swedish Poprad
4.041298 4.185271

Karol_scaled

Slovakian,47.2
Cossack_Kuban,19.4
Poprad,17.6
Petrovka_MLBA,5.4
Sweden_MN,4.6
Iron_Gates_HG,3
Hungary_LCA,1.8
Blatterhole_HG,0.8
Anc_Finn,0.2

First calculator to accurately detect my slovak ancestry, though I dont understand how im closer related to germans or poles than the sample from Poprad? (what kind of sample is that?)

PCAS
https://preview.ibb.co/ka07zz/G25_Northern_Europe_PCA.png (https://ibb.co/m0thXK)
https://preview.ibb.co/m2jHzz/G25_Europe_scaled.png (https://ibb.co/jqZvme)

Overall the Calc looks pretty dang accurate and the PCAs represent my ancestry really well. I really like also how he created a PCA for just northern europeans as well really allows one to see detail. PCAs including especially MENA populations on it are pointless for me and totally distort my placement on PCAs.

Also everyone mentions how its interesting that Russians plot farther west than Balts but I find it interesting that despite Czechs plot further east than hungarians on average.

[Profileid]

The Pennsylvania Dutch are descended mostly from West/Southwest Germans, Alsatian Germans, and Swiss Germans, and most have about 5-10% British (usually Scottish, then English) admixture.

Despite the name, they have nothing in common with the Tulip Dutch.

stop calling them Dutch

[Astarte]

Could you post the Cypriot average please?

[Lucas]

My Global 25 results


now with modern populations included
[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Slovakian Czech Slavic_Bohemia Polish Hungarian German
2.354768 3.364584 3.818326 3.893108 4.006113 4.036149
Swedish Poprad
4.041298 4.185271

Karol_scaled

Slovakian,47.2
Cossack_Kuban,19.4
Poprad,17.6
Petrovka_MLBA,5.4
Sweden_MN,4.6
Iron_Gates_HG,3
Hungary_LCA,1.8
Blatterhole_HG,0.8
Anc_Finn,0.2

First calculator to accurately detect my slovak ancestry, though I dont understand how im closer related to germans or poles than the sample from Poprad? (what kind of sample is that?)


Poprad is also ancient! It is sample from Migration Period find in Poprad, hence the name. But it is Germanic, probably eastern Germanic and maybe Vandal. Second option remnant of Marcomanni?
It is proxy for your Germanic ancestry, not northern Slovak...
Davidski could name it in such way to avoid confusion.

[Karol Klačansky]

Poprad is also ancient! It is sample from Migration Period find in Poprad, hence the name. But it is Germanic, probably eastern Germanic and maybe Vandal. Second option remnant of Marcomanni?
It is proxy for your Germanic ancestry, not northern Slovak...
Davidski could name it in such way to avoid confusion.

Ok thanks for the clarification! still interesting that I come up as having ancestry from ancient germanic people who inhabited present day slovakia. I will remove all ancient samples later and run it again. Have you already removed them? it just takes too long as the data set is big. Interesting also when I run a cluster analysis, I am clustering with Slovaks more so than czechs even though on the pca I resemble more czechs. Slovakia also turns up as my number one closest population, so his slovak samples seem quite representative of slovaks and not just eastern slovaks :thumb001: I like this calculator.

[Skjaldemjøden]

Danish? :smilie_flagge14:

[Lucas]

Ok thanks for the clarification! still interesting that I come up as having ancestry from ancient germanic people who inhabited present day slovakia. I will remove all ancient samples later and run it again. Have you already removed them? it just takes too long as the data set is big. Interesting also when I run a cluster analysis, I am clustering with Slovaks more so than czechs even though on the pca I resemble more czechs. Slovakia also turns up as my number one closest population, so his slovak samples seem quite representative of slovaks and not just eastern slovaks :thumb001: I like this calculator.
No, I don't have. Some people on anthrogenica have, you can try to ask in G25 thread there.

What you mean by cluster analysis. K-means in PAST?

[Karol Klačansky]

No, I don't have. Some people on anthrogenica have, you can try to ask in G25 thread there.

What you mean by cluster analysis. K-means in PAST?

Thanks I will ask, just takes to damn long to go and delete the samples.

Yup with K-means but also with what it calls "classical" which I assumed was Hiearchical clustering, and it is. I cluster closest with one polish sample, Im assuming its a quite western shifted pole from wielkopolska, a few samples Peterski shared with me from this region resemble me a lot, then I clustered with other slovak samples. Im not sure which slovak samples he chose for his proxy populations, he only has a few, but it seems to at least be not so east slovak biased with higher balkan admixture. G25 pretty accurately represents my germanic/ celtic heritage but also shows my strongest ties to other west slavs. It seems to be a good calculator.

[Lucas]

Thanks I will ask, just takes to damn long to go and delete the samples.

Yup with K-means but also with what it calls "classical" which I assumed was Hiearchical clustering, and it is. I cluster closest with one polish sample, Im assuming its a quite western shifted pole from wielkopolska, a few samples Peterski shared with me from this region resemble me a lot, then I clustered with other slovak samples. Im not sure which slovak samples he chose for his proxy populations, he only has a few, but it seems to at least be not so east slovak biased with higher balkan admixture. G25 pretty accurately represents my germanic/ celtic heritage but also shows my strongest ties to other west slavs. It seems to be a good calculator.

Indeed. But Davidski is restricted by using only academic samples, or those few private which people share with him, but I know he is suspicious here as most people aren't from one region only.
And because of that for some such bigger countries like Germany, Poland or England (except Cornwall) he doesn't have regional kits which is disadvantage for people with such ancestry.

But for ancient samples nobody beats him. I don't think any other "genetic bloger" tries to create ancient calculator in the future

[Bobby Martnen]

stop calling them Dutch

That's what my family has always called itself...if you want to call yourself "Pennsylvania German", that's fine, but that's not how my family does it

[Bobby Martnen]

Try Romany Gypsies

[DarknessWin]

Dutch are a very close population to Isles people anyway.

1 Greek:Average Albanian Average 1.392
2 Greek:Average Italian_Tuscan Average 2.851
3 Greek:Average Italian_Abruzzo Average 2.934
4 Greek:Average Bulgarian Average 3.181
5 Greek:Average Macedonian Average 3.541
6 Greek:Average Italian_South Average 3.681
7 Greek:Average Sicilian_West Average 3.987
8 Greek:Average Romanian Average 4.026
9 Greek:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 4.047
10 Greek:Average Sicilian_East Average 4.299
11 Greek:Average Serbian Average 4.663
12 Greek:Average Montenegrin Average 4.918
13 Greek:Average Maltese Average 4.928
14 Greek:Average Greek_Crete Average 5.013
15 Greek:Average Maros Average 5.115
16 Greek:Average Ashkenazi_Jew Average 5.191
17 Greek:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 5.68
18 Greek:Average Spanish_Andalucia Average 5.935
19 Greek:Average Spanish_Murcia Average 6.088
20 Greek:Average Spanish_Extremadura Average 6.143
21 Greek:Average Bosnian Average 6.329
22 Greek:Average Portuguese Average 6.419
23 Greek:Average Moldovan Average 6.555
24 Greek:Average Spanish_Galicia Average 6.563
25 Greek:Average Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon Average 6.743
26 Greek:Average Spanish_Cataluna Average 6.839


Not Turks and other MENA in the list.
And from Italy closer to central Italy than south, this prove all what i said so far
that Greeks are a med/balkan population

[DarknessWin]

But closer to Abruzzo than to Sicily. Very odd.

I told you many times that Greeks actually look like more with central italians around Rome region.

[Karol Klačansky]

Indeed. But Davidski is restricted by using only academic samples, or those few private which people share with him, but I know he is suspicious here as most people aren't from one region only.
And because of that for some such bigger countries like Germany, Poland or England (except Cornwall) he doesn't have regional kits which is disadvantage for people with such ancestry.

But for ancient samples nobody beats him. I don't think any other "genetic bloger" tries to create ancient calculator in the future

I dont understand his reservation to accept samples like Peterski in his studies as hes ancestry is proven to come from a small region. This is the same case with my father. I guess he doesnt want to just take peoples word.

[Septentrion]

So English are closer to Germans than Scandosluts. Nice.

"Scandosluts"? Who are you to say that? I bet you won't be able to say that in their face, you could lose your denture!

[Septentrion]

Can you do the Pennsylvania Dutch? Or are they not an available population?

Pennsylvanians are nothing but a bunch of mongrels!

[Septentrion]

But closer to Abruzzo than to Sicily. Very odd.

You are an Israelite, this is why you are closer to Middle-Easterners. Your ancestry most likely Jewish lineage mixed with European ones.

[Septentrion]

Here's a few models that were done for me. I'll post some Beaker models later.

1. All populations, not averaged:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic:NA15765 England_Anglo-Saxon:NO3423
1.138376 1.420880
Orcadian:HGDP00804 Icelandic:NA15759
1.465230 1.480405
Orcadian:HGDP00803 Orcadian:HGDP00797
1.507714 1.578195
Icelandic:NA15755 Icelandic:NA15766
1.589339 1.617622

Icelandic,40
Unetice,9.4
England_Roman,8.4
Orcadian,8.2
Scottish,5.6
Bell_Beaker_Germany,5.2
England_IA,4.6
English,4.6
England_Anglo-Saxon,4
Irish,3.4
Basque_Spanish,1
CWC_Baltic,1
Nordic_LN,1

2. All populations, averaged.

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic England_Roman England_Anglo-Saxon Orcadian
1.208832 1.264720 1.319895 1.320363
Bell_Beaker_Germany Scottish Irish English
1.340242 1.370887 1.423013 1.435015

Bell_Beaker_Germany,31
Icelandic,30.2
England_Roman,16
England_Anglo-Saxon,15.6
Irish,3.2
CWC_Baltic_early,1.4
Poltavka_outlier,1
Yamnaya_Samara,0.6
Scottish,0.4
Loschbour,0.2
North_Ossetian,0.2
Yamnaya_Kalmykia,0.2

3. Modern only, not averaged.

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic:NA15765 Orcadian:HGDP00804 Icelandic:NA15759 Orcadian:HGDP00803
1.138376 1.465230 1.480405 1.507714
Orcadian:HGDP00797 Icelandic:NA15755 Icelandic:NA15766 Austrian:Austria2
1.578195 1.589339 1.617622 1.619938

Icelandic,57
Orcadian,16
Scottish,9.6
Irish,7.2
English,3
Swedish,2
Austrian,1.2

4. Modern only, averaged.

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Icelandic Orcadian Scottish Irish English Norwegian Austrian Swedish
1.208832 1.320363 1.370887 1.423013 1.435015 1.602361 1.677917 1.710212

Icelandic,57.4
Scottish,13.2
Orcadian,11
English,5.2
Irish,4
Mezhovskaya,3.6
Scythian_Samara,1.6
Austrian,1.4

5. Ancients only, averaged.

> getMonte('Global_25_avg_ancient.txt','jessie_25.tx t')
[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
England_Roman England_Anglo-Saxon Bell_Beaker_Germany
1.264720 1.319895 1.340242
Ireland_EBA Unetice BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN
1.724514 1.758003 1.814249
England_IA Halberstadt_LBA
1.989758 2.251533


England_Anglo-Saxon,36.4
Bell_Beaker_Germany,31.4
England_Roman,29.8
Andronovo,0.8
CWC_Baltic_early,0.6
Poltavka_outlier,0.4
Blatterhole_HG,0.2
Srubnaya,0.2
Tanzania_Luxmanda_3000BP,0.2

Nice! You closest to Icelandic population, because the majority of the female lineages in Iceland and Faroe Islands came from the British Isles from Ireland and Scotland in particular.

[Bobby Martnen]

"Scandosluts"? Who are you to say that? I bet you won't be able to say that in their face, you could lose your denture!

They spread their legs for rapefugees.

[Grace O'Malley]

Nice! You closest to Icelandic population, because the majority of the female lineages in Iceland and Faroe Islands came from the British Isles from Ireland and Scotland in particular.

There is a study coming out on Scotland. It hasn't been published yet but it is by Ed Gilbert who was heavily involved in the Irish DNA Atlas. I know he was also looking at what parts of Ireland the Irish autosomal input into Iceland is from.

[Grace O'Malley]

Can you do slovakia and the Czech Republic?

Czech has more samples Slovakian only 5.

1 Czech:Average Hungarian Average 1.729
2 Czech:Average Slovakian Average 2.275
3 Czech:Average Croatian Average 2.351
4 Czech:Average Polish Average 2.523
5 Czech:Average Austrian Average 2.586
6 Czech:Average German Average 2.63
7 Czech:Average Slavic_Bohemia Average 3.138
8 Czech:Average Ukrainian Average 3.207
9 Czech:Average Swedish Average 3.216
10 Czech:Average Moldovan Average 3.558
11 Czech:Average Cossack_Ukrainian Average 3.611
12 Czech:Average Bosnian Average 3.614
13 Czech:Average Dutch Average 3.762
14 Czech:Average Russian_Voronez Average 3.837
15 Czech:Average Russian_Orel Average 3.893
16 Czech:Average Norwegian Average 4.09
17 Czech:Average Russian_Smolensk Average 4.202
18 Czech:Average Russian_Kursk Average 4.235
19 Czech:Average Shetlandic Average 4.278
20 Czech:Average Icelandic Average 4.284
21 Czech:Average Welsh Average 4.304

It looks like Irish and other British pops would come up next for the Czech.

1 Slovakian:Average Czech Average 2.275
2 Slovakian:Average Polish Average 2.326
3 Slovakian:Average Ukrainian Average 2.829
4 Slovakian:Average Hungarian Average 2.89
5 Slovakian:Average Slavic_Bohemia Average 2.904
6 Slovakian:Average Croatian Average 3.156
7 Slovakian:Average Slovenian Average 3.172
8 Slovakian:Average Cossack_Ukrainian Average 3.241
9 Slovakian:Average Russian_Orel Average 3.314
10 Slovakian:Average Russian_Voronez Average 3.367
11 Slovakian:Average Russian_Kursk Average 3.444
12 Slovakian:Average Austrian Average 3.613
13 Slovakian:Average Moldovan Average 3.917
14 Slovakian:Average Bosnian Average 3.959
15 Slovakian:Average German Average 3.98
16 Slovakian:Average Belarusian Average 4.073
17 Slovakian:Average Russian_Smolensk Average 4.166
19 Slovakian:Average Russian_Tver Average 4.207
19 Slovakian:Average Swedish Average 4.338
20 Slovakian:Average Cossack_Kuban Average 4.427

[Bellbeaking]

Does anyone have a danish persons results? Or a genetic similarity to Denmark tool

[Coastal Elite]

1 Romanian:Average Serbian Average 1.218
2 Romanian:Average Montenegrin Average 1.349
3 Romanian:Average Bulgarian Average 1.355
4 Romanian:Average Macedonian Average 1.438
5 Romanian:Average Bosnian Average 2.67
6 Romanian:Average Moldovan Average 2.801
7 Romanian:Average Croatian Average 3.55
8 Romanian:Average Austrian Average 3.835
9 Romanian:Average Albanian Average 3.846
10 Romanian:Average Slovenian Average 3.963
11 Romanian:Average Greek Average 4.026
12 Romanian:Average Hungarian Average 4.176
13 Romanian:Average French_East Average 4.197
14 Romanian:Average Italian_Bergamo Average 4.553
15 Romanian:Average French Average 4.715
16 Romanian:Average Belgian Average 4.958
17 Romanian:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 5.062
18 Romanian:Average Italian_Tuscan Average 5.187
19 Romanian:Average German Average 5.227


thank u very much :)

I just had to add this one:

Romanian:Average Irish Average 6.2699

[Mingle]

(I know he has them, but they cannot be used for commercial purposes, he had to sign a waiver and promise not to use them for his commercial tests before they allowed him to download them).

Why is that? Why would they be against him using them?

[Ayetooey]

English are incredibly close to Cornwall; colour me shocked. 0.6 is absolutely nothing and there's likely Cornish who plot identical to people from England.

Being closer to Ireland than Germanic countries is surprising. Has the Scottish average been posted I cba to scroll through every page.

[Mingle]

English are incredibly close to Cornwall; colour me shocked. 0.6 is absolutely nothing and there's likely Cornish who plot identical to people from England.

Being closer to Ireland than Germanic countries is surprising. Has the Scottish average been posted I cba to scroll through every page.


1 Scottish:Average Irish Average 0.683
2 Scottish:Average Orcadian Average 0.716
3 Scottish:Average English Average 0.763
4 Scottish:Average English_Cornwall Average 1.044
5 Scottish:Average Dutch Average 1.163
6 Scottish:Average Shetlandic Average 1.374
7 Scottish:Average Welsh Average 1.474
8 Scottish:Average Icelandic Average 1.613
9 Scottish:Average Norwegian Average 1.82
10 Scottish:Average Swedish Average 2.406
11 Scottish:Average German Average 2.416
12 Scottish:Average Belgian Average 2.837

They're said to be from Argyll though, and are more representative for Southwest Scots rather than Scots as a whole.

[J. Ketch]

Davidski's English average is off, there is no way my mum is closer to Welsh, Dutch and Scots than the English average. And if it's the same English references as used in Gedmatch, most definitely. LukaszM has much more accurate averages as he uses probably over 5x more modern samples.

1 England_IA_Averaged Averaged 1.502
3 Welsh_Averaged Averaged 1.974
4 Dutch_Averaged Averaged 2.003
5 England_Anglo-Saxon_Averaged Averaged 2.063
7 Beaker_Czech_Averaged Averaged 2.098
8 Scottish_Averaged Averaged 2.106
9 English_Averaged Averaged 2.114
11 Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 2.167
13 Poprad_Medieval_Averaged Averaged 2.168
15 Irish_Averaged Averaged 2.204
17 Shetlandic_Averaged Averaged 2.219
20 Scotland_MBA_Averaged Averaged 2.252
24 England_Roman_Averaged Averaged 2.266

[J. Ketch]

Indeed. But Davidski is restricted by using only academic samples, or those few private which people share with him, but I know he is suspicious here as most people aren't from one region only.
And because of that for some such bigger countries like Germany, Poland or England (except Cornwall) he doesn't have regional kits which is disadvantage for people with such ancestry.

But for ancient samples nobody beats him. I don't think any other "genetic bloger" tries to create ancient calculator in the future
Would you mind posting some of your nearest populations lists (the first 5-10) for NW Euro countries/regions?

[Peterski]

Ok thanks for the clarification! still interesting that I come up as having ancestry from ancient germanic people who inhabited present day slovakia. I will remove all ancient samples later and run it again. Have you already removed them? it just takes too long as the data set is big. Interesting also when I run a cluster analysis, I am clustering with Slovaks more so than czechs even though on the pca I resemble more czechs. Slovakia also turns up as my number one closest population, so his slovak samples seem quite representative of slovaks and not just eastern slovaks :thumb001: I like this calculator.
Thanks I will ask, just takes to damn long to go and delete the samples.

Yup with K-means but also with what it calls "classical" which I assumed was Hiearchical clustering, and it is. I cluster closest with one polish sample, Im assuming its a quite western shifted pole from wielkopolska, a few samples Peterski shared with me from this region resemble me a lot, then I clustered with other slovak samples. Im not sure which slovak samples he chose for his proxy populations, he only has a few, but it seems to at least be not so east slovak biased with higher balkan admixture. G25 pretty accurately represents my germanic/ celtic heritage but also shows my strongest ties to other west slavs. It seems to be a good calculator.

If you are interested, I uploaded this Germanic chieftain from Slovakia to GEDmatch Genesis:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?277329-Germanic-chieftain-from-Poprad-(Slovakia)-375-400-AD

^^^
So you can model yourself as a mix of him and other populations based on any GEDmatch calc.

[Grace O'Malley]

Just putting some populations on here and who they are closest to genetically.

I'll start off with Ireland, of course.

1 Irish:Average Scottish Average 0.683
2 Irish:Average Orcadian Average 1.062
3 Irish:Average English Average 1.122
4 Irish:Average English_Cornwall Average 1.334
5 Irish:Average Shetlandic Average 1.39
6 Irish:Average Welsh Average 1.399
7 Irish:Average Dutch Average 1.589
8 Irish:Average Icelandic Average 1.69
9 Irish:Average Norwegian Average 1.95
10 Irish:Average Swedish Average 2.701
11 Irish:Average German Average 2.842
12 Irish:Average Belgian Average 3.076

English

1 English:Average English_Cornwall Average 0.661
2 English:Average Scottish Average 0.763
3 English:Average Orcadian Average 1.091
4 English:Average Irish Average 1.122
5 English:Average Dutch Average 1.302
6 English:Average Welsh Average 1.618
7 English:Average Shetlandic Average 1.804
8 English:Average Icelandic Average 1.955
9 English:Average German Average 2.205
10 English:Average Norwegian Average 2.222
11 English:Average Belgian Average 2.437
12 English:Average Swedish Average 2.652

French

1 French:Average French_East Average 1.349
2 French:Average Belgian Average 1.435
3 French:Average German Average 3.313
4 French:Average Spanish_Cataluna Average 3.381
5 French:Average Austrian Average 3.396
6 French:Average English_Cornwall Average 3.446
7 French:Average Spanish_Baleares Average 3.573
8 French:Average Spanish_Cantabria Average 3.576
9 French:Average English Average 3.58
10 French:Average French_South Average 3.676
11 French:Average Dutch Average 3.999
12 French:Average Spanish_Valencia Average 4.072

Germans

1 German:Average Austrian Average 1.685
2 German:Average Dutch Average 1.939
3 German:Average English Average 2.205
4 German:Average Belgian Average 2.266
5 German:Average English_Cornwall Average 2.347
6 German:Average Scottish Average 2.416
7 German:Average Orcadian Average 2.484
8 German:Average Welsh Average 2.56
9 German:Average Shetlandic Average 2.702
10 German:Average Swedish Average 2.74
11 German:Average Irish Average 2.842
12 German:Average Norwegian Average 3.01


I don't know how to use nMonte yet but just use a tool that does the same thing. I'll look at nMonte later and Global25 because these are the most advanced tools available for anyone interested in genetics.

I'll add some more later.

Global 25 has been updated so these results might show slight differences. More samples have been added. I've just went up to the first 1,000 samples because it's too time consuming deleting the results (i.e. ancients and single results) in between.

1 Irish:Average Scottish_Averaged Averaged 0.683
2 Irish:Average Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 0.929
3 Irish:Average English_Averaged Averaged 1.122
5 Irish:Average English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 1.334
6 Irish:Average Shetlandic_Averaged Averaged 1.39
8 Irish:Average Welsh_Averaged Averaged 1.399
11 Irish:Average Dutch_Averaged Averaged 1.589
15 Irish:Average Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 1.659
26 Irish:Average Norwegian_Averaged Averaged 1.818
152 Irish:Average Swedish_Averaged Averaged 2.701
165 Irish:Average German_Averaged Averaged 2.762
232 Irish:Average Belgian_Averaged Averaged 3.076
494 Irish:Average French_East_Averaged Averaged 4.134
505 Irish:Average German_East_Averaged Averaged 4.175
525 Irish:Average French_Averaged Averaged 4.24
533 Irish:Average Austrian_Averaged Averaged 4.262
655 Irish:Average Czech_Averaged Averaged 4.777
713 Irish:Average Hungarian_Averaged Averaged 5.113
828 Irish:Average Slovenian_Averaged Averaged 5.785
837 Irish:Average Croatian_Averaged Averaged 5.816
983 Irish:Average Moldovan_Averaged Averaged 6.64
985 Irish:Average Polish_Averaged Averaged 6.646

1 English:Average English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 0.661
2 English:Average Scottish_Averaged Averaged 0.763
3 English:Average Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 0.997
4 English:Average Irish_Averaged Averaged 1.122
5 English:Average Dutch_Averaged Averaged 1.302
11 English:Average Welsh_Averaged Averaged 1.618
19 English:Average Shetlandic_Averaged Averaged 1.804
28 English:Average Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 1.915
51 English:Average German_Averaged Averaged 2.109
53 English:Average Norwegian_Averaged Averaged 2.113
105 English:Average Belgian_Averaged Averaged 2.437
147 English:Average Swedish_Averaged Averaged 2.652
331 English:Average French_East_Averaged Averaged 3.44
375 English:Average French_Averaged Averaged 3.58
405 English:Average Austrian_Averaged Averaged 3.654
435 English:Average German_East_Averaged Averaged 3.734
638 English:Average Hungarian_Averaged Averaged 4.604
779 English:Average Slovenian_Averaged Averaged 5.181
802 English:Average Croatian_Averaged Averaged 5.287
878 English:Average Slovakian_Averaged Averaged 5.774
949 English:Average Bosnian_Averaged Averaged 6.239
968 English:Average Polish_Averaged Averaged 6.396
975 English:Average Montenegrin_Averaged Averaged 6.423
979 English:Average French_South_Averaged Averaged 6.453
996 English:Average Spanish_Pais_Vasco_Averaged Averaged 6.585
999 English:Average Spanish_Cataluna_Averaged Averaged 6.596

1 French:Average French_East_Averaged Averaged 1.349
103 French:Average German_Averaged Averaged 3.158
144 French:Average Spanish_Cataluna_Averaged Averaged 3.381
148 French:Average Austrian_Averaged Averaged 3.396
156 French:Average English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 3.446
186 French:Average Spanish_Baleares_Averaged Averaged 3.573
187 French:Average Spanish_Cantabria_Averaged Averaged 3.576
188 French:Average English_Averaged Averaged 3.58
206 French:Average French_South_Averaged Averaged 3.676
227 French:Average Spanish_Aragon_Averaged Averaged 3.78
277 French:Average Dutch_Averaged Averaged 3.999
285 French:Average Scottish_Averaged Averaged 4.023
290 French:Average Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha_Averaged Averaged 4.039
294 French:Average Spanish_Valencia_Averaged Averaged 4.072
305 French:Average Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 4.127
329 French:Average Welsh_Averaged Averaged 4.207
336 French:Average Irish_Averaged Averaged 4.24
367 French:Average Spanish_Pais_Vasco_Averaged Averaged 4.325
373 French:Average Spanish_Andalucia_Averaged Averaged 4.359
394 French:Average Portuguese_Averaged Averaged 4.434
409 French:Average Spanish_Galicia_Averaged Averaged 4.469
420 French:Average Spanish_Murcia_Averaged Averaged 4.51
437 French:Average Shetlandic_Averaged Averaged 4.56
439 French:Average Spanish_Extremadura_Averaged Averaged 4.563
448 French:Average Basque_French_Averaged Averaged 4.592
454 French:Average Italian_Bergamo_Averaged Averaged 4.611
470 French:Average Montenegrin_Averaged Averaged 4.632
504 French:Average Romanian_Averaged Averaged 4.715
508 French:Average Hungarian_Averaged Averaged 4.724
555 French:Average Croatian_Averaged Averaged 4.925
584 French:Average Basque_Spanish_Averaged Averaged 5.003
597 French:Average Slovenian_Averaged Averaged 5.051
598 French:Average Serbian_Averaged Averaged 5.052
607 French:Average Norwegian_Averaged Averaged 5.081
689 French:Average Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 5.275
692 French:Average Bosnian_Averaged Averaged 5.29
718 French:Average Moldovan_Averaged Averaged 5.351
757 French:Average Bulgarian_Averaged Averaged 5.481
785 French:Average Czech_Averaged Averaged 5.554
795 French:Average Swedish_Averaged Averaged 5.57
807 French:Average Macedonian_Averaged Averaged 5.604
997 French:Average Italian_Tuscan_Averaged Averaged 6.381

2 German:Average Austrian_Averaged Averaged 1.736
3 German:Average Dutch_Averaged Averaged 1.879
9 German:Average Belgian_Averaged Averaged 2.098
11 German:Average English_Averaged Averaged 2.109
16 German:Average English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 2.247
28 German:Average German_East_Averaged Averaged 2.341
29 German:Average Scottish_Averaged Averaged 2.345
31 German:Average Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 2.37
44 German:Average French_East_Averaged Averaged 2.483
46 German:Average Welsh_Averaged Averaged 2.49
63 German:Average Shetlandic_Averaged Averaged 2.651
66 German:Average Hungarian_Averaged Averaged 2.675
81 German:Average Irish_Averaged Averaged 2.762
95 German:Average Czech_Averaged Averaged 2.802
97 German:Average Swedish_Averaged Averaged 2.806
129 German:Average Norwegian_Averaged Averaged 2.968
142 German:Average Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 3.019
179 German:Average French_Averaged Averaged 3.158
208 German:Average Slovenian_Averaged Averaged 3.257
214 German:Average Croatian_Averaged Averaged 3.283
577 German:Average Slovakian_Averaged Averaged 4.11
612 German:Average Moldovan_Averaged Averaged 4.222
624 German:Average Bosnian_Averaged Averaged 4.263
733 German:Average Montenegrin_Averaged Averaged 4.578
851 German:Average Serbian_Averaged Averaged 5.07
888 German:Average Romanian_Averaged Averaged 5.215

[Grace O'Malley]

English are incredibly close to Cornwall; colour me shocked. 0.6 is absolutely nothing and there's likely Cornish who plot identical to people from England.

Being closer to Ireland than Germanic countries is surprising. Has the Scottish average been posted I cba to scroll through every page.

Why would you think that? All populations in the British Isles are very close genetically. What ancestry would make the Irish more distant to the English? I'm really interested in your opinion on this.

Here's the Scots

1 Scottish:Average Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 0.583
2 Scottish:Average Irish_Averaged Averaged 0.683
3 Scottish:Average English_Averaged Averaged 0.763
4 Scottish:Average English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 1.044
5 Scottish:Average Dutch_Averaged Averaged 1.163
7 Scottish:Average Shetlandic_Averaged Averaged 1.374
9 Scottish:Average Welsh_Averaged Averaged 1.474
15 Scottish:Average Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 1.574
20 Scottish:Average Norwegian_Averaged Averaged 1.734
95 Scottish:Average German_Averaged Averaged 2.345
110 Scottish:Average Swedish_Averaged Averaged 2.406
201 Scottish:Average Belgian_Averaged Averaged 2.837
432 Scottish:Average German_East_Averaged Averaged 3.758
464 Scottish:Average Austrian_Averaged Averaged 3.873
509 Scottish:Average French_Averaged Averaged 4.023
599 Scottish:Average Czech_Averaged Averaged 4.379
654 Scottish:Average Hungarian_Averaged Averaged 4.669
804 Scottish:Average Croatian_Averaged Averaged 5.407
868 Scottish:Average Slovakian_Averaged Averaged 5.745
947 Scottish:Average Moldovan_Averaged Averaged 6.25
951 Scottish:Average Polish_Averaged Averaged 6.283
982 Scottish:Average Bosnian_Averaged Averaged 6.427

What I find interesting is that the "Insular Celts" are split by the English.

[Grace O'Malley]

This one does have something unexpected in the results.

1 Norwegian:Average Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 1.439
3 Norwegian:Average Shetlandic_Averaged Averaged 1.632
4 Norwegian:Average Scottish_Averaged Averaged 1.734
5 Norwegian:Average Dutch_Averaged Averaged 1.743
7 Norwegian:Average Welsh_Averaged Averaged 1.75
8 Norwegian:Average Irish_Averaged Averaged 1.818
9 Norwegian:Average Swedish_Averaged Averaged 1.839
10 Norwegian:Average Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 1.914
22 Norwegian:Average English_Averaged Averaged 2.113
51 Norwegian:Average English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 2.392
148 Norwegian:Average German_Averaged Averaged 2.968
462 Norwegian:Average German_East_Averaged Averaged 4.063
510 Norwegian:Average Czech_Averaged Averaged 4.217
533 Norwegian:Average Austrian_Averaged Averaged 4.346
635 Norwegian:Average French_East_Averaged Averaged 4.775
650 Norwegian:Average Hungarian_Averaged Averaged 4.826
692 Norwegian:Average French_Averaged Averaged 5.081
739 Norwegian:Average Slovakian_Averaged Averaged 5.288
817 Norwegian:Average Croatian_Averaged Averaged 5.708
986 Norwegian:Average Moldovan_Averaged Averaged 6.52

[Vasconcelos]

Why unexpected? Multiple populations are extremelly close to each other, so much so that the order ends up not being very relevant, particularly when they are built with few references and sample bias is at play

[Grace O'Malley]

Why unexpected? Multiple populations are extremelly close to each other, so much so that the order ends up not being very relevant, particularly when they are built with few references and sample bias is at play

What do you mean by sample bias? Isn't the G25 all academic samples? Some pops i.e. Welsh have only 3 samples so that's not really representative. Irish has 64 though which is a fairly good sized sample.

I now match Irish first on this where before it was Icelandic. (Just looked at the first 100)

2 Irish_Averaged Averaged 1.876
3 Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 1.914
5 Scottish_Averaged Averaged 1.964
6 Welsh_Averaged Averaged 1.977
7 Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 1.98
12 English_Averaged Averaged 2.206
23 Norwegian_Averaged Averaged 2.336
36 English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 2.454
37 Dutch_Averaged Averaged 2.459
42 Shetlandic_Averaged Averaged 2.494
60 Swedish_Averaged Averaged 2.659

[Vasconcelos]

What do you mean by sample bias? Isn't the G25 all academic samples? Some pops i.e. Welsh have only 3 samples so that's not really representative. Irish has 64 though which is a fairly good sized sample.

It is, but it's impossible to capture variation with just 3 samples, it's way too few, which is why Welsh's position on the list isn't very relevant.

[Vojnik]

^ Thank you. It's interesting how we are closer to even the Eastern French, than we are to the Albanians :confused:

Closer to Macedonians (3rd) then to Croats (7th). Pribislav will not be happy about that.

[Vojnik]

Is there a Macedonian one?

[Grace O'Malley]

It is, but it's impossible to capture variation with just 3 samples, it's way too few, which is why Welsh's position on the list isn't very relevant.

Yes I agree with that. Wales is one of the smaller sampled areas but at least they have some Welsh. They are one of the least studied populations from that part of the world. The other samples are fairly good though. Dutch is 64, for example, which is pretty robust.

[Vasconcelos]

Yes I agree with that. Wales is one of the smaller sampled areas but at least they have some Welsh. They are one of the least studied populations from that part of the world. The other samples are fairly good though. Dutch is 64, for example, which is pretty robust.

Yes, Spain has similar issues, while the number of Spanish individuals is good, the regional breakdown is horrible because each region only gets 3 or 4 samples.

[Grace O'Malley]

Is there a Macedonian one?

Yes there is. Only 5 in the sample though.

1 Macedonian:Average Romanian_Averaged Averaged 1.438
2 Macedonian:Average Bulgarian_Averaged Averaged 1.457
3 Macedonian:Average Serbian_Averaged Averaged 1.541
4 Macedonian:Average Montenegrin_Averaged Averaged 1.89
1 Macedonian:Average Bosnian_Averaged Averaged 3.071
32 Macedonian:Average Albanian_Averaged Averaged 3.356
47 Macedonian:Average Moldovan_Averaged Averaged 3.428
43 Macedonian:Average Greek_Averaged Averaged 3.602
52 Macedonian:Average Croatian_Averaged Averaged 4.088
78 Macedonian:Average Slovenian_Averaged Averaged 4.487
106 Macedonian:Average Austrian_Averaged Averaged 4.668
114 Macedonian:Average Italian_Bergamo_Averaged Averaged 4.76
116 Macedonian:Average Hungarian_Averaged Averaged 4.811
140 Macedonian:Average French_East_Averaged Averaged 5.072
162 Macedonian:Average Italian_Tuscan_Averaged Averaged 5.207
221 Macedonian:Average French_Averaged Averaged 5.604
225 Macedonian:Average Spanish_Baleares_Averaged Averaged 5.643
261 Macedonian:Average Belgian_Averaged Averaged 5.877
291 Macedonian:Average German_Averaged Averaged 6.048
311 Macedonian:Average Italian_Abruzzo_Averaged Averaged 6.18
325 Macedonian:Average Spanish_Andalucia_Averaged Averaged 6.267
331 Macedonian:Average Czech_Averaged Averaged 6.312
335 Macedonian:Average Spanish_Murcia_Averaged Averaged 6.337
356 Macedonian:Average Spanish_Extremadura_Averaged Averaged 6.404
365 Macedonian:Average German_East_Averaged Averaged 6.442
366 Macedonian:Average Spanish_Cataluna_Averaged Averaged 6.45
381 Macedonian:Average Spanish_Galicia_Averaged Averaged 6.524
399 Macedonian:Average Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon_Averaged Averaged 6.619
417 Macedonian:Average Portuguese_Averaged Averaged 6.677
422 Macedonian:Average Slovakian_Averaged Averaged 6.685
448 Macedonian:Average Spanish_Valencia_Averaged Averaged 6.799
471 Macedonian:Average Sicilian_West_Averaged Averaged 6.886
485 Macedonian:Average Spanish_Aragon_Averaged Averaged 6.94
489 Macedonian:Average Italian_South_Averaged Averaged 6.95
500 Macedonian:Average Spanish_Cantabria_Averaged Averaged 6.99
635 Macedonian:Average Sicilian_East_Averaged Averaged 7.512
637 Macedonian:Average French_South_Averaged Averaged 7.518
657 Macedonian:Average Dutch_Averaged Averaged 7.586
708 Macedonian:Average Polish_Averaged Averaged 7.768
711 Macedonian:Average English_Averaged Averaged 7.769
719 Macedonian:Average English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 7.799
723 Macedonian:Average Ukrainian_Averaged Averaged 7.812
764 Macedonian:Average Maltese_Averaged Averaged 7.948
795 Macedonian:Average Scottish_Averaged Averaged 8.048
815 Macedonian:Average Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 8.093
820 Macedonian:Average Shetlandic_Averaged Averaged 8.102
829 Macedonian:Average Welsh_Averaged Averaged 8.116
842 Macedonian:Average Greek_Crete_Averaged Averaged 8.162
846 Macedonian:Average Ashkenazi_Jew_Averaged Averaged 8.172
889 Macedonian:Average Spanish_Pais_Vasco_Averaged Averaged 8.318
911 Macedonian:Average Irish_Averaged Averaged 8.374
916 Macedonian:Average Cossack_Ukrainian_Averaged Averaged 8.389
963 Macedonian:Average Spanish_Canarias_Averaged Averaged 8.526
964 Macedonian:Average Swedish_Averaged Averaged 8.526
977 Macedonian:Average Russian_Voronez_Averaged Averaged 8.573
987 Macedonian:Average Russian_Orel_Averaged Averaged 8.598
997 Macedonian:Average Basque_French_Averaged Averaged 8.633

[Grace O'Malley]

Yes, Spain has similar issues, while the number of Spanish individuals is good, the regional breakdown is horrible because each region only gets 3 or 4 samples.

Is there a Spanish average anywhere?

[Vojnik]

Thanks Grace. Looks like what i'd expect anyway. We are always really close to Romanians. I always get them in first place in Gedmatch whenever there isn't a Macedonian sample in the calculators.

[Vasconcelos]

Is there a Spanish average anywhere?

No, but you can calculate it. However the result might not be really representative because some regions are much more populated than others, despite both having the same number of samples avaliable, for instance Andalucia vs Cantabria.

This is my issue with averages when there's a bit of heterogenity, you always end up losing some information. This is particularly true in PCA plots

[Seya]

Thanks Grace. Looks like what i'd expect anyway. We are always really close to Romanians. I always get them in first place in Gedmatch whenever there isn't a Macedonian sample in the calculators.

yes, and i always get Macedonian wherever there is Macedonian sample.

[War Chef]

Can you do Gagauz or is that too specific?