J2b2-L283 and Ilyrian colonisation of the Balkans

[Shqipez]

The oldest J2b2-L283 sample recovered among ancient DNA samples is a Late Bronze Age (1700-1500 BCE) individual from southern Croatia (Mathieson et al. 2017). His genome possessed about 30% of Steppe admixture and 15% of Eastern Hunter-Gatherer, which suggest a recent arrival from the Steppe. He was accompanied by a woman with similar admixtures, and both possessed typical Pontic-Caspian Steppe mtDNA (I1a1andW3a). The timing, location and admixtures of these samples fit with the Illyrian colonisation of the Dinaric Alps, which is thought to have taken place between 1600 and 1100 BCE. The Illyrians may have been late Steppe migrants from the Volga region that were forced out of the Steppe by the invasion of the northern R1a tribes who established the Srubna culture(from 2000 BCE). Through a founding effect, J2b2-L283 lineages might have considerably increased their original frequency after reaching Illyria.



https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml#J2b2a1



Where it was found,

http://i63.tinypic.com/1j6ebo.jpg



It peaks today in Albanians, especially Northern Albanians where it makes up atleast 30% of the male lineages, and is almost absent in the rest of the Dinaric Alps where it was found,

http://i64.tinypic.com/4fv0ar.png

[Jana]

Today J2b is only 3% in southern Croatia, where native Illyrian lineages were replaced with Slavic I2a1b and R1a1a haplogroups, and survive in minor percentages.
https://i.imgur.com/GZOmjrP.gif

[Wrong]

J2b2a-L283 is among the Illyrian lineages that survived, along with R1b-L23 & EV13 that Albanians carry.

[Livin]

J2b2a-L283 is among the Illyrian lineages that survived, along with R1b-L23 & EV13 that Albanians carry.

Is the albanian language similar to ancient illyrian or a mix betwwen thraco-illyrian etc?

[Wrong]

500AD map


J2b2-L283 was still strong in these domains, before the Avars pushed it southwards and then Slavs arrived from Poland with I2a1b-CTS10228 & R1a1a, replacing the Old lineages in Bosnia and onwards.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Historical_map_of_the_Balkans_around_582-612_AD.jpg/250px-Historical_map_of_the_Balkans_around_582-612_AD.jpg

[Shqipez]

Is the albanian language similar to ancient illyrian or a mix betwwen thraco-illyrian etc?

Most likely Ilyrian but with some Thracian/Dacian elements.

[Bosniensis]

At least several Hellenic scholars like Strabo mentions Illyrians as Cousins of Celts and that they descend from the two brothers.

I wonder how E1b Albanians and J2 Albanians has anything to do with Celtic people?

However it is confirmed that Celts were I2 people who were invaded by R1b people (Scandinavians, Germans etc..)

Also according to Albanian concept of Illyrians, Illyrians would be the only people who were WIPED OUT from their capital city in Sirmium and Singidunum and all other territories, a UNIQUE example in a WHOLE WORLD.

That's ridiculous. Of course that I2 people are Illyrians, and Southern Poland along with Hungary was Illyrian (Pannonian)

and I2 in Gaul and all Celtic territories as well as Illyrian was a major haplogroup.

But I don't want to waste my breath on Albanians who have African Haplogroup claiming to be related to Celts is INSANE.

https://www.abroadintheyard.com/wp-content/uploads/Europe-c-2000-BC-8h-jpg.jpg

[Wrong]

That part of northwestern Italy was a Roman post, with Illyrian soldiers stationed to protect the Empire against the Gauls:

http://i64.tinypic.com/4fv0ar.png

Huno-Avaro-Slav Bosniensis can't comprehend this fact.

[Shqipez]

At least several Hellenic scholars like Strabo mentions Illyrians as Cousins of Celts and that they descend from the two brothers.

I wonder how E1b Albanians and J2 Albanians has anything to do with Celtic people?

However it is confirmed that Celts were I2 people who were invaded by R1b people (Scandinavians, Germans etc..)

Also according to Albanian concept of Illyrians, Illyrians would be the only people who were WIPED OUT from their capital city in Sirmium and Singidunum and all other territories, a UNIQUE example in a WHOLE WORLD.

That's ridiculous. Of course that I2 people are Illyrians, and Southern Poland along with Hungary was Illyrian (Pannonian)

and I2 in Gaul and all Celtic territories as well as Illyrian was a major haplogroup.

But I don't want to waste my breath on Albanians who have African Haplogroup claiming to be related to Celts is INSANE.

https://www.abroadintheyard.com/wp-content/uploads/Europe-c-2000-BC-8h-jpg.jpg

The map you posted is totally outdated.

No graves in the Balkans that were found were I2a1b. J2b2 L283 was found.

In Bosnia was found R1b Z2103 / l23, another common lineage among Albanians today but absent in South Slavs. Several of the Yamnaya samples found in the Steppes belonged to this marker. So it was most likely brought with Indo European expansion.

I2a1b came most certainly with Slavs. Only I2a2 has been found in Balkan graves and it peaks in Southern Albanians and Greeks but it wasn't from Ilyrians , at least not proto Ilyrians who were largely Indo Europeans.

The Ilyrians were actually described by many authors to of been related to the Veneti, believed by some to of had Celtic elements. This explains why Albanians on many calculators get North Italy and Veneto. The Ilyrians also mixed with their Greek neighbours. The Ilyrians colonised Italy and Proto Ilyrians settled Northern Italy during the Indo European invasion. This explains why Albanians are like Eastern shifted Italians and just North of mainland Greeks.

Ilyrians or proto ilyrians were of said to be related to Iranic people and also Germanic people which explains why the Albanian language has been grouped or linked with all these people. Also Balto Slavic and Armenian , an Iranic language. All related from Indo European origin.


EV13 isn't African but most certainly Caucasoid in origin.

The rest of the things you said have no arguments or evidence. It's just wishful thinking.

[Jana]

The map you posted is totally outdated.
No graves in the Balkans that were found were I2a1b. J2b2 L283 was found.
In Bosnia was found R1b Z2103 / l23, another common lineage among Albanians today but absent in South Slavs. Several of the Yamnaya samples found in the Steppes belonged to this marker.

Why are you arguning with a troll ? Waste of time...

And one correction: R1b L23 was not found in Bosnia, but also in Croatia (east Slavonia) among Vučedol culture burials.
http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/ancientDNAFinal-1-905x509.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vu%C4%8Dedol_culture

Spread of Vučedol culture on West Balkans, by some scholars considered predecessor of Illyrians
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Vucedol_culture_map.png/800px-Vucedol_culture_map.png

[Wrong]

Why are you arguning with a troll ? Waste of time...

And one correction: R1b L23 was not found in Bosnia, but also in Croatia (east Slavonia) among Vučedol culture burials.
http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/ancientDNAFinal-1-905x509.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vu%C4%8Dedol_culture
If R1b-L23 was in Croatia, it was certainly in Bosnia aswell.

[Jana]

If R1b-L23 was in Croatia, it was certainly in Bosnia aswell.

But that part of Croatia is part of Danubian Plain, quite separated from mountains of Bosnia.
Yes, I am certain it was in Bosnia but we don't have single ancient DNA from there, probably due to lack of funding and politisation of science, which want to keep uneduacted masses believing the offical Illyrian myth.

[Wrong]

But that part of Croatia is part of Danubian Plain, quite separated from mountains of Bosnia.
Yes, I am certain it was in Bosnia but we don't have single ancient DNA from there, probably due to lack of funding and politisation of science, which want to keep uneduacted masses believing the offical Illyrian myth.
Serbian government funds psuedo-historians like Jovan Deretic & Albanian-descended Miroljub Petrovic.

Bosnians fund Iliri Pyramidi Bosniak-Indiana Jones.

[Jana]

Serbian government funds psuedo-historians like Jovan Deretic & Albanian-descended Miroljub Petrovic.

Bosnians fund Iliri Pyramidi Bosniak-Indiana Jones.


Deretic is an exception, but Serbian DNA project is quite professional and in line with newest scientific reasearch. Serbs never claimed they are anything but Slavic.
But Bosniaks, they propagate Illyrian origin of their people in last 15 years in order to give them ''nativist'' right to Bosnia and separate them from Serbs and Croats, evil Slavic invaders xD

[Shqipez]

Why are you arguning with a troll ? Waste of time...

And one correction: R1b L23 was not found in Bosnia, but also in Croatia (east Slavonia) among Vučedol culture burials.
http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/ancientDNAFinal-1-905x509.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vu%C4%8Dedol_culture

Yes. My mistake.

The guy is obviously a nutcase. I doubt he is a troll but obviously has mental problems. I think anyone who cannot look at the evidence we have should be banned

His argument ''How can Ev13 and j2 Albanians be related to Celts'' - xD

Well, it doesn't change that an Ilyrian was found with J2b2 and also R1b z2103 so they most likely were related to such people , and also Ev13 was either absorbed or also brought. Maybe both cases. It's also possible the Ilyrians had brought farmer admixture into Europe and possibly even the Balkans. This considering some of the Yamnaya samples found had Neolithic admixture. And then they later absorbed more Neolithic in the Balkans and Italy. This explains why Tuscans and Albanians are around 70% Neolithic and 30% Steppe, more or less. The steppe genes got diluted over time in favor of more Neolithic.

The Proto Ilyrians also colonised Northern Italy and later the Ilyrians settled in Apulia. This explains why we are genetically related to Italians. But with an Eastern shift. And also Greeks.

All the genetic evidence is there. Of course Italy also had other later invasions from the North etc. which makes some Italians really North.

[Wrong]

Deretic is an exception, but Serbian DNA project is quite professional and in line with newest scientific reasearch. Serbs never claimed they are anything but Slavic.
But Bosniaks, they propagate Illyrian origin of their people in last 15 years in order to give them ''nativist'' right to Bosnia and separate them from Serbs and Croats, evil Slavic invaders xD
It's worse with the Serbian government funding these psuedo-historians, teaching their kids fake history since day one.

[Pribislav]

Miroljub Petrović has Albanian origin, he admitted that.
He is E-V13, and he claim that E-V13 is proto-Serbian marker. :picard1:

Jovan Deretić is R1a-Z280>Y2902.

[Jana]

It's worse with the Serbian government funding these psuedo-historians, teaching their kids fake history since day one.

Sadly, our geneticists are also stuck in pre-2005 reasearches, and of not much value. Let's hope they catch up with rest of Europe in next few years.

[Wrong]

Miroljub Petrović has Albanian origin, he admitted that.
He is E-V13, and he claim that E-V13 is proto-Serbian marker. :picard1:

Jovan Deretić is R1a-Z280>Y2902.
And 99% of the Serbian population will learn from them, rather than from the forum amateurs here.

[cosmoo]

It's worse with the Serbian government funding these psuedo-historians, teaching their kids fake history since day one.
No. Firstly, they are not being funded, and secondly, schoolbooks in Serbia tell exclusively of Slavic origin - as far as I recall, they even fail to take into account assimilation of natives, like it is written in schoolbooks here for example.

[Jana]

Jovan Deretić is R1a-Z280>Y2902.

Oh the sweet irony xD

[Jana]

No. Firstly, they are not being funded, and secondly, schoolbooks in Serbia tell exclusively of Slavic origin - as far as I recall, they even fail to take into account assimilation of natives, like it is written in schoolbooks here for example.

Croatian school books are realistic at this aspect. We learn Croats were Slavic peoples from Carpathian area that arrived to land previously inhabited by Illyrians, Romans, Celts and Goths and mixture of these elements produced modern Croats.

[cosmoo]

Miroljub Petrović has Albanian origin, he admitted that.
He is E-V13, and he claim that E-V13 is proto-Serbian marker. :picard1:
He isn't, for he hails from Kuči clan which is not connected to Albanians in any way (their closest Y-DNA SNP matches are from Poland and US).

[Pribislav]

And 99% of the Serbian population will learn from them, rather than from us forum amateurs.

Miroljub Petrović is clown. He is popular on internet because he is funny, but almost no one in Serbia does not take him seriosly. He is the greatest stand-up comedian in the Balkans.

Jovan Deretić has more fans who believe in what he says. People which believe to Deretić are in minority in Serbia, probably not even 20%.

[Jana]

Btw, we also learned our ethnonym is most likely Iranic, but nobody ever teached us Croats were Iranians, like some alternative books suggest.

[Wrong]

He isn't, for he hails from Kuči clan which is not connected to Albanians in any way (their closest Y-DNA SNP matches are from Poland and US).
Kuči/Kuqi clan is of Albanian origins in every sense of the word. Wikipederia is disregarded.

Name has no sense of meaning in Slavic languages.

[cosmoo]

Croatian school books are realistic at this aspect. We learn Croats were Slavic peoples from Carpathian area that arrived to land previously inhabited by Illyrians, Romans, Celts and Goths and mixture of these elements produced modern Croats.

That's fair, although the most realistic description would be that those who brought ethnonym "Croat" from western Slavic lands imposed themselves (and hence assimilated them in the long run) not only over previous non-Slavic inhabitants, but also over the Slavs who started settling the area from the eastern direction nearly a century ago.

[Shqipez]

No. Firstly, they are not being funded, and secondly, schoolbooks in Serbia tell exclusively of Slavic origin - as far as I recall, they even fail to take into account assimilation of natives, like it is written in schoolbooks here for example.

And what do they teach about Albanians ?

[cosmoo]

Kuči/Kuqi clan is of Albanian origins in every sense of the word. Wikipederia is disregarded.

Name has no sense of meaning in Slavic languages.

There are several interpretations regarding the name, but etymology is an unreliable science, especially on its own. Genetics have revealed that Kuči Mrnjavčevići and Kuči Drekalovići (some of the latter claim descent from Skenderbeg) are identical, contrary to what was previously thought, as well as that they have no matches among Albanian clans. The story of origin from Skenderbeg most likely stems from the fact that founder of Drekalović branch was related to him via maternal line.

[Jana]

That's fair, although the most realistic description would be that those who brought ethnonym "Croat" from western Slavic lands imposed themselves (and hence assimilated them in the long run) not only over previous non-Slavic inhabitants, but also over the Slavs who started settling the area from the eastern direction nearly a century ago.

True.

[Pribislav]

He isn't, for he hails from Kuči clan which is not connected to Albanians in any way (their closest Y-DNA SNP matches are from Poland and US).

He claim that he is direct descendant of Skanderbeg by male line.
Here he admitted that he has Albanian blood by female lines 21:09 - 22:00 https://youtu.be/1cjeeYn5t5w?t=21m9s

He is obsessed with Albanians, and claim that Albanians are the purest Serbs.

Miroljub kiss Albanian flag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La4x9euVhYk

[Wrong]

He claim that he is direct descendant of Skanderbeg by male line.
Here he admitted that he has Albanian blood by female lines and his 21:09 - 22:00 https://youtu.be/1cjeeYn5t5w?t=21m9s

He is obsessed with Albanians, and claim that Albanians are purest Serbs.

Miroljub kiss Albanian flag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La4x9euVhYk
Yeah, Albanians are the True Old Serbs. Rashka was the place of Albanian ethnogenesis between the R1b-L23, J2b2 & EV13... SLAVAAAAA!

[Pribislav]

Oh the sweet irony xD

:)

[Shqipez]

Yeah, Albanians are the True Old Serbs. Rashka was the place of Albanian ethnogenesis between the R1b-L23, J2b2 & EV13... SLAVAAAAA!

Real life Bosniensis, only different version xD

[Wrong]

Real life Bosniensis, only different version xD
To be fair man.. J2b2, R1b-L23 & EV13 is high in the men of Rashka, Old Serbia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_Pazar

[Wrong]

To be fair man.. J2b2, R1b-L23 & EV13 is high in the men of Rashka, Old Serbia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_Pazar
I don't buy the "recent Albanian immigration" theory to the area of 'Old Serbia', as this area has most definitely been historically high in these haplogroups mentioned, adjacent to the areas of the very same haplogroup lineages found 3500-5000 years earlier.

[Pribislav]

To be fair man.. J2b2, R1b-L23 & EV13 is high in the men of Rashka, Old Serbia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_Pazar

Muslims from Novi Pazar and Sanžak are Albanian Malsors which arrived there in 18th and 19th century.

Today they declared themselves as Bosniaks.

Leaders of Sandžak muslims!

Muamer Zukorlić - R1b-BY611
https://rs.n1info.com/Picture/68851/jpeg/25310960_b.JPG


Sulejman Ugljanin - E-V13 (Kelmendi)
http://static.mondo.rs/Picture/734246/jpeg/ugljanin.jpg


Rasim Ljajić - E-V13 (Kelmendi)
http://www.sdpsrbije.rs/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/rasim51.jpg

[Shqipez]

Muslims from Novi Pazar and Sanžak are Albanian Malsors which arrived there in 18th and 19th century.

Today they declared themselves as Bosniaks.

Leaders of Sandžak muslims!

Muamer Zukorlić R1b-BY611
https://rs.n1info.com/Picture/68851/jpeg/25310960_b.JPG


Sulejman Ugljanin E-V13 (Kelmendi)
http://static.mondo.rs/Picture/734246/jpeg/ugljanin.jpg


Rasim Ljajić E-V13 (Kelmendi)
http://www.sdpsrbije.rs/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/rasim51.jpg

Muamer Hukic, also Sandzakli of Albanian origin. His family says so themselves that they are Malsors originally. Not sure what tribe.

http://sandzakpress.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Muamer-Hukic.jpg


I wonder what ydna they have.

[Wrong]

Muslims from Novi Pazar and Sanžak are Albanian Malsors which arrived there in 18th and 19th century.

Today they declared themselves as Bosniaks.

Leaders of Sandžak muslims!

Muamer Zukorlić - R1b-BY611
https://rs.n1info.com/Picture/68851/jpeg/25310960_b.JPG


Sulejman Ugljanin - E-V13 (Kelmendi)
http://static.mondo.rs/Picture/734246/jpeg/ugljanin.jpg


Rasim Ljajić - E-V13 (Kelmendi)
http://www.sdpsrbije.rs/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/rasim51.jpg
What's the total yDNA breakdown on the Sandzaklije tested?

[Shqipez]

What's the total yDNA breakdown on the Sandzaklije tested?

Some of them might be Malsors in origin but I also find it hard to believe that they all are. They have a lot of j2b2, r1b and ev13 but also some i2a1b and r1a.

[IncelSlayer]

Illyrians were not fresh arrivals from the steppe, the culture formed in Central Europe from local Bronze age cultures and from there spread,including to Balkans.
Secondly, as Coon noted not all Halstatt burials can be attributed to Illyrians.
R1B-l23 was the dominant ydna among flat headed Bell Beakers and these can't be associated with illyrians as they were found everywere in Europe after Bronze Age, especially in high grounds/mountains
Illyrians have been conquered by the romans yet only albanians today carry these ydna's.
And for EV13 it pretty much has no link with illyrians, same as G it was neolitic marker millenials before them, and these markers were after Bronze Age a very small minority, it being high in Albania and Kosovo is a recent thing.


This culture arose in central Europe,..., sometime shortly after the beginning of the first millennium B.C. It developed out of local Bronze Age origins carried over from the Urnfiels, and in turn from Aunjetitz...Still, whatever the complexity of archaeological detail, the Hallstatt civilization may be considered primarily the work of the indigenous central European population, with little if any accretions.
It would be foolish to claim that every site with Hallstatt cultural remains carries the bones or ashes of Illyrian speakers. This may only with certainty be asserted for the central area, and for the regions immediately adjacent, while in the west it is fairly certain that some of the peoples in a Hallstatt level of culture were actually Kelts...
...The Hallstatt crania from Austria, including those from the type site itself, form a reasonably homogeneous, entirely long-headed group. 16 (See Appendix I, col. 32.) This group is the legitimate, local successor to the Aunjetitz, ... Morphologically, as well as metrically, most of these skulls may without difficulty be designated as "Nordic"; ...The similarity between Hallstatt and Germanic crania is a commonplace; and if the Reihengräber people were "Nordic", as is generally conceded, then so, in all likelihood, were the Hallstatt people.
The significance of this double continuity is great. It traces the Nordic racial type, in skeletal form, back to the Early Iron Age, and derives this with little alteration from the preceding Age of Bronze. The Bronze Age population which was thus the ancestral Nordic one....
Let us turn to the specific problem of the Illyrian racial composition.Let us turn to the specific problem of the Illyrian racial composition. So far, we have been dealing entirely with the Hallstatt remains from Lower Austria. The Hallstatt cemetery itself dates from the middle and later thirds of the period; but the neighboring Early Hallstatt site of Statzendorf, from which a series of five crania have been taken, contains nothing but long-headed examples, and these are the same as those from the type site itself. So the Hallstatt site is racially typical of the entire period.
Crania from Württemburg, Bavaria, and the Bavarian Palatinate include, with the usual Austrian Hallstatt type, a large minority of brachycephals which may be considered as survivals from the Bronze Age... It would appear, then, that in southwestern Germany, Hallstatt Nordics had invaded the region and had mixed with the Bell Beaker Dinarics and the old Borreby sub-stratum....A large series from the Spreewald, situated to the north of this area and on flat land, consists entirely of purely dolichocephalic crania of the regular Austrian Hallstatt type, 19 which was apparently at home in the lowlands of central Europe, but not in the highlands, which had already given shelter to a tenacious brachycephalic population....
In Bosnia, we come to the famous site of Glasinac...The majority of the skulls are long headed and these show the same mixture of Danubian and Corded elements which we have already seen at Hallstatt itself. The brachycephalic skulls, although in the minority,.. Almost all belong to what might be called a modern Dinaric racial type...The skulls are moderately large with flattened occiputs, straight side walls, rather broad foreheads, and a very prominent nose, in the one instance in which the nasal bones were preserved...Metrically, these brachycephalic crania resemble the Bronze Age series from Cyprus, This is the first occurrence of crania of this type in the Dinaric Alpine region in any considerable numbers. We have already seen, however, that this same type had entered these mountains by the beginning of the Bronze Age, in connection with the eastward movement of the Bell Beaker peoples.The round-heads at Glasinac and in Carniola may have been the descendants of these Bell Beaker refugees.
As the Illyrians spread southwestward along the Dinaric Alps into Montenegro and Albania, they apparently blended with an indigenous brachycephalic mountain population which may have been more numerous than the invaders; for, with some additions and modifications, it persists as a predominant element today
The significance of our study of the Illyrian peoples is as follows: on the plains of south central Germany and Lower Austria, where the Hallstatt culture arose, the racial type involved was skeletally a Nordic one.
It finds a ready prototype in the Bronze Age population which stretched from Austria to Siberia, and which was in turn the product of mixture between Danubian peasants and Corded invaders. It seems most likely that the Illyrians were largely the descendants, more specifically, of the Aunjetitz people, through an Urnfields medium, or of some similar physical blend composed of identical racial ingredients.
https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-VI2.htm
TL:DR: only doli nordid skulls can be attributed to illyrians, brachy element was dominant Bell Beaker known from over a century ago before they few years ago discovered that Bell Beakers were dominant r1b-l23 which comes from Armenia and only exists in Europe in Albania,Western Transilvany, Basques and greeks.

[Shqipez]

I think somebody needs to learn to read





The oldest J2b2-L283 sample recovered among ancient DNA samples is a Late Bronze Age (1700-1500 BCE) individual from southern Croatia (Mathieson et al. 2017). His genome possessed about 30% of Steppe admixture and 15% of Eastern Hunter-Gatherer, which suggest a recent arrival from the Steppe. He was accompanied by a woman with similar admixtures, and both possessed typical Pontic-Caspian Steppe mtDNA (I1a1andW3a).The timing, location and admixtures of these samples fit with the Illyrian colonisation of the Dinaric Alps, which is thought to have taken place between 1600 and 1100 BCE. The Illyrians may have been late Steppe migrants from the Volga region that were forced out of the Steppe by the invasion of the northern R1a tribes who established the Srubna culture(from 2000 BCE). Through a founding effect, J2b2-L283 lineages might have considerably increased their original frequency after reaching Illyria.



Fresh arrivals or not. There is no proof they came directly from Steppes. Most likely from Hallstatt and into the Balkans.

[Wrong]

I think somebody needs to learn to read



Fresh arrivals or not. There is no proof they came directly from Steppes. Most likely from Hallstatt and into the Balkans.
He should concern himself more about his Armenoid J2a1 Kura-Araxes being subjugated by R1b-L23 IE Cimmerian Conan The Barbarians than about Albanian yDNA.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/Urartu_715_713-en.svg/1920px-Urartu_715_713-en.svg.png

[Shqipez]

Bell Beaker culture was never inn the Balkans from what I know. It is associated with Central and Western Europe.

The R1b l23 was also most likely an Indo European. And an Ilyrian. It is clearly related to Indo European expansion into the Balkans. Proto Armenians, Hitties etc seem to of migrated into the Balkans and into Anatolia.

We are not discussing skulls or race here or autosomal, which can change with mixing, but we are discussing ydna.

The Dinaric elements in the Balkans most certainly does not stem from any Bell Beakers , except for a minority that possibly was picked up by Ilyrians in central Europe. The Dinaric element is rather Pre IE, much like proper Mediterranean and Upper Paleolithic, or occurred during IE since Dinaricisation can occur anywhere in the world and cannot be linked to one single population such as Bell Beakers.

Read Coons work on Dinaricisation.

[Kelmendasi]

He isn't, for he hails from Kuči clan which is not connected to Albanians in any way (their closest Y-DNA SNP matches are from Poland and US).
Nope, in fact their closest SNP match are the Trieshi who are an Albanian clan. They belong to the same subclade/SNP, BY5293, and share a TMRCA of around 1100ybp. And Kuqi is connected to Albanians through oral legends and history.

[Wrong]

Bell Beaker culture was never inn the Balkans from what I know. It is associated with Central and Western Europe.

The R1b l23 was also most likely an Indo European. And an Ilyrian. It is clearly related to Indo European expansion into the Balkans. Proto Armenians, Hitties etc seem to of migrated into the Balkans and into Anatolia.

We are not discussing skulls or race here or autosomal, which can change with mixing, but we are discussing ydna.

The Dinaric elements in the Balkans most certainly does not stem from any Bell Beakers , except for a minority that possibly was picked up by Ilyrians in central Europe. The Dinaric element is rather Pre IE, much like proper Mediterranean and Upper Paleolithic, or occurred during IE since Dinaricisation can occur anywhere in the world and cannot be linked to one single population such as Bell Beakers.

Read Coons work on Dinaricisation.
Indeed.

Also, I noticed the highest Dinarized Albanian regions are the ones with the least Caucasus admixture and the most North-Western. Zero correlation to so-called Armenoid migrations to Albania and elsewhere.

You're often more Northwestern than me in the PCA plots.

[Kamal900]

Nice results. The ancient Illyrians had the closest genetic affinities to the modern day Albanians.

[Jana]

Bell Beaker culture was never inn the Balkans from what I know. It is associated with Central and Western Europe.

The R1b l23 was also most likely an Indo European. And an Ilyrian

It is not likely, but certain. Almost all Yamnanya burials were L23, it seem to be connected to proto Greek, Armenian and Paleo Balkan languages.

Bell Beakers are ancestors of modern Celto-Germanics, and they carried western clades or R1b, like L21, U158 and others.

[Kelmendasi]

There are several interpretations regarding the name, but etymology is an unreliable science, especially on its own. Genetics have revealed that Kuči Mrnjavčevići and Kuči Drekalovići (some of the latter claim descent from Skenderbeg) are identical, contrary to what was previously thought, as well as that they have no matches among Albanian clans. The story of origin from Skenderbeg most likely stems from the fact that founder of Drekalović branch was related to him via maternal line.
The Albanians of Kuqi who iirc are Ndreka/Drekaloviq believe that they come from Berisha e Kuqe which was a brotherhood of Berisha and they still call themselves Berisha e Kuqe. Although I know that the Montenegrins believe to come from Skanderbeg. They do match one of the Albanian clans and that is the Trieshi(Bankeqi brotherhood), though we have found out that the Nucullaj of Kastrati that are from Koje/Koci(An Albanian village) are also from the Kuqi clade. Certain families from Kuqi also have more recent Albanian origin such as the Pajovic(Pajaj) and Nikic(Nikaj) that were part of the same brotherhood as the Nucullaj but were Slavicized, the Nucullaj are the only ones who still identify as Albanian. Interesting the earliest mentions of the leader of Drekaloviq show them as Catholic who converted to Orthodoxy and that certain historians noted the area as "Chuzzi Albanese".

[Wrong]

It is not likely, but certain. Almost all Yamnanya burials were L23, it seem to be connected to proto Greek, Armenian and Paleo Balkan languages.

Bell Beakers are ancestors of modern Celto-Germanics, and they carried western clades or R1b, like L21, U158 and others.
There is physical proof of Ancient R1b-L23 remains conquering Armenia in the Bronze Age. These R1b-L23 were Northern Euro autosomally and were totally different admixturewise to modern Armenians.

Connecting Ancient R1b-L23 to Armenoids is laughable.

[Kelmendasi]

Muamer Hukic, also Sandzakli of Albanian origin. His family says so themselves that they are Malsors originally. Not sure what tribe.

[IG]http://sandzakpress.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Muamer-Hukic.jpg[/IMG]


I wonder what ydna they have.
From what I know the area that he is from was settled by Albanians from Kelmendi, from the Vukel and Nikci brotherhoods. He should be E-V13 and belonging to the Kelmendi cluster.

[Livin]

He should concern himself more about his Armenoid J2a1 Kura-Araxes being subjugated by R1b-L23 IE Cimmerian Conan The Barbarians than about Albanian yDNA.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/Urartu_715_713-en.svg/1920px-Urartu_715_713-en.svg.png

He has a big complex with his kura-araxes j2 ancestors ahahha

[Shqipez]

He should concern himself more about his Armenoid J2a1 Kura-Araxes being subjugated by R1b-L23 IE Cimmerian Conan The Barbarians than about Albanian yDNA.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/Urartu_715_713-en.svg/1920px-Urartu_715_713-en.svg.png

The fact it had 30% Steppe and steppe mtdna should be obvious we are looking at a Steppe or IE and not some Bell Beaker or Neolithic and also found in late bronze age. Ilyrian, Thracian or whatever it is, it is obvioualy an Indo European. It is most likely an Ilyrian. Or proto Ilyrian since at around that time they colonised the Balkans. It fits well. And so does the location, very West into the Balkans.

Some Indo Europeans migrated directly from Steppes and into Eastern Balkans etc.

Ydna is what matters here and not autosomal. Albanian language was even linked to Lithuanian and Baltic.. so who gives a fuck if proto Ilyrians were autosomally like Lithuanians anyway. Ydna still remains.




Also some ancient Balkan samples are really South and others really North. Some are very identical to Italians and Albanians. This shows people mixed in different ways and there was diversity even among same populations etc. Not everybody was mixed right away.

I'm pretty sure by the time of Alexander, Bardylis or at least the Roman empire that most people were mixed. These pca maps depend a lot on the level of the admixture also.

[IncelSlayer]

Bell Beaker culture was never inn the Balkans from what I know. It is associated with Central and Western Europe.

The R1b l23 was also most likely an Indo European. And an Ilyrian. It is clearly related to Indo European expansion into the Balkans. Proto Armenians, Hitties etc seem to of migrated into the Balkans and into Anatolia.

We are not discussing skulls or race here or autosomal, which can change with mixing, but we are discussing ydna.

The Dinaric elements in the Balkans most certainly does not stem from any Bell Beakers , except for a minority that possibly was picked up by Ilyrians in central Europe. The Dinaric element is rather Pre IE, much like proper Mediterranean and Upper Paleolithic, or occurred during IE since Dinaricisation can occur anywhere in the world and cannot be linked to one single population such as Bell Beakers.

Read Coons work on Dinaricisation.

Didn't bother reading your thrash self made conclussions full of contradictions.
https://indo-european.eu/2018/02/olalde-et-al-and-mathieson-et-al-nature-2018-r1b-l23-dominates-bell-beaker-r1a-m417-resurges-only-during-the-bronze-age/
Read again my friend, R1B-L23 = Bell-beaker main ydna and it was found in the balkans.

[Shqipez]

Nope, in fact their closest SNP match are the Trieshi who are an Albanian clan. They belong to the same subclade and share a TMRCA of around 1100ybp. And Kuqi is connected to Albanians through oral legends

Those other Serbian Kuqi who tested R1a etc are most likely assimilated

Berisha e Kuqe that tested have nothing to do with Slavs from what I know, which he cannot explain. He's talking as if only Serbs are of this tribe. Albanian Kuqi are considered part of Berisha and are widespread in Kosova.

[Kelmendasi]

Illyrians were not fresh arrivals from the steppe, the culture formed in Central Europe from local Bronze age cultures and from there spread,including to Balkans.
Secondly, as Coon noted not all Halstatt burials can be attributed to Illyrians.
R1B-l23 was the dominant ydna among flat headed Bell Beakers and these can't be associated with illyrians as they were found everywere in Europe after Bronze Age, especially in high grounds/mountains
Illyrians have been conquered by the romans yet only albanians today carry these ydna's.
And for EV13 it pretty much has no link with illyrians, same as G it was neolitic marker millenials before them, and these markers were after Bronze Age a very small minority, it being high in Albania and Kosovo is a recent thing.


TL:DR: only doli nordid skulls can be attributed to illyrians, brachy element was dominant Bell Beaker known from over a century ago before they few years ago discovered that Bell Beakers were dominant r1b-l23 which comes from Armenia and only exists in Europe in Albania,Western Transilvany, Basques and greeks.
R1b-L23 doesn't come from Armenia or at least there is no evidence of it. You're basing it on some weird ass page on the Shulaveri-Shomu culture. R1b-Z2103 has been found in Vucedol samples. Bell Beakers in fact had a good amount of L21 which is common among the British and is connected to Celts as well. You shouldn't just refer to L23 as every major branch of R1b comes from it.

[Kelmendasi]

Didn't bother reading your thrash self made conclussions full of contradictions.
https://indo-european.eu/2018/02/olalde-et-al-and-mathieson-et-al-nature-2018-r1b-l23-dominates-bell-beaker-r1a-m417-resurges-only-during-the-bronze-age/
Read again my friend, R1B-L23 = Bell-beaker main ydna and it was found in the balkans.
Again, stop referring only to L23 as majority of R1b clades come from it. It's like CTS5856 but for R1b. The Bell beakers were high in R-P312 and L21 both of which are hardly found in the Balkans https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#6/51.000/2.000

[Kelmendasi]

Those other Serbian Kuqi who tested R1a etc are most likely assimilated

Berisha e Kuqe that tested have nothing to do with Slavs from what I know, which he cannot explain. He's talking as if only Serbs are of this tribe. Albanian Kuqi are considered part of Berisha and are widespread in Kosova.
R1a among the Kuqi isn't really common but as you said, when it is found it is found among the families that were assimilated. The Berisha e Kuqe tested belong to the same Kuqi cluster that even the Montenegrin Kuqi belong to although this clade is shared with the Albanian Trieshi and a branch of Kastrati. The Berisha e Kuqe in Kosovo interestingly belong to a clade of L241 and not the Kuqi clade, L241 is common among Albanians

[Shqipez]

Indeed.

Also, I noticed the highest Dinarized Albanian regions are the ones with the least Caucasus admixture and the most North-Western. Zero correlation to so-called Armenoid migrations to Albania and elsewhere.

You're often more Northwestern than me in the PCA plots.

I would say you are Dinaric or a Noric. Your CI is like 81 which is well with Dinaric standards. No Nordic or Mediterranean has that kinda CI. So you are definitely a Dinaricised Nordic / Mediterranean. Our phenotype doesn't always show our whole or dominant genotype either , It is hard to explain but I read this in a Book of Coons where he mentions it was for survival reasons. This is also why Albanians have a lot of Alpines for example, especially in Mirdita and Southern Albania despite Hunter gatherer isn't so high. And Borrebies in the North.

I also get high Caucasus in some calcs and even Chechen etc, Dinaric elements in the Balkans could probably date back to Neolithic and some Hunter Gatherers mixing as hybrids or it could be an adaption. Some Dinarics also came from the Near East and some with the Proto Ilyrians or Indo European / Yamnaya expansion. I don't think it can be related to one single population.

[IncelSlayer]

R1b-L23 doesn't come from Armenia or at least there is no evidence of it. You're basing it on some weird ass page on the Shulaveri-Shomu culture. R1b-Z2103 has been found in Vucedol samples. Bell Beakers in fact had a good amount of L21 which is common among the British and is connected to Celts as well. You shouldn't just refer to L23 as every major branch of R1b comes from it.


There is physical proof of Ancient R1b-L23 remains conquering Armenia in the Bronze Age. These R1b-L23 were Northern Euro autosomally and were totally different admixturewise to modern Armenians.

Connecting Ancient R1b-L23 to Armenoids is laughable.

Weres that northern admixture among albanians? And the connection was already made by Coon a century ago.

In their head and face measurements, they are virtually identical with the more brachycephalic groups of Anatolian Turks studied in the last section; they likewise fall extremely close to the total means for Ghegs in northern Albania, in all characters studied except the nasal dimensions;
The Armenians are metrically very much like the northern Albanians in most characters; the chief differences are the greater face length and greater nasal breadth of the Armenians.

Bell Beakers, who were anthropologically armenoid, were r1b-l23 almost entirely https://indo-european.eu/2018/02/olalde-et-al-and-mathieson-et-al-nature-2018-r1b-l23-dominates-bell-beaker-r1a-m417-resurges-only-during-the-bronze-age/
Most common ydna in armenians is still r1b-l23, the same.End of deal.
(R1b1a1a2a-L23* (L51- Z2105-) in Erzurum from the Balanovsky​ et al. (2017) study), found in a original armenian city.


Again, stop referring only to L23 as majority of R1b clades come from it. It's like CTS5856 but for R1b. The Bell beakers were high in R-P312 and L21 both of which are hardly found in the Balkans https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#6/51.000/2.000

They were mainly R1b-l23, read the newest study from 2018 and stop speaking.This is why where R1b-l23 peaks (N.Albania,Western Transilvania,Arvanite settled territories of Greece,Armenia) "dinarid" look peaks.

[Jana]

Irish are highest in Bell Beaker genetics to modern day, and other northwestern Europeans.

[Kelmendasi]

Weres that northern admixture among albanians? And the connection was already made by Coon a century ago.


Bell Beakers, who were anthropologically armenoid, were r1b-l23 almost entirely https://indo-european.eu/2018/02/ola...he-bronze-age/
Most common ydna in armenians is still r1b-l23, the same.End of deal.
(R1b1a1a2a-L23* (L51- Z2105-) in Erzurum from the Balanovsky​ et al. (2017) study), found in a original armenian city.



They were mainly R1b-l23, read the newest study from 2018 and stop speaking.This is why where R1b-l23 peaks (N.Albania,Western Transilvania,Arvanite settled territories of Greece,Armenia) "dinarid" look peaks.
Show evidence of it. Again, samples tested that were Bell Beaker have shown to mainly be P312 and L21 and not basal L23*. L23* doesn't peak in Albania, BY611 peaks in Albanians.

[IncelSlayer]

Show evidence of it. Again, samples tested that were Bell Beaker have shown to mainly be P312 and L21 and not basal L23*. L23* doesn't peak in Albania, BY611 peaks in Albanians.

Evidence from newest study https://indo-european.eu/2018/02/olalde-et-al-and-mathieson-et-al-nature-2018-r1b-l23-dominates-bell-beaker-r1a-m417-resurges-only-during-the-bronze-age/
Olalde et al. and Mathieson et al. (Nature 2018): R1b-L23 dominates Bell Beaker

L23* doesnt peak in Albania, but L23 came from armenians since basal is from there, learn to read.

[Shqipez]

Didn't bother reading your thrash self made conclussions full of contradictions.
https://indo-european.eu/2018/02/olalde-et-al-and-mathieson-et-al-nature-2018-r1b-l23-dominates-bell-beaker-r1a-m417-resurges-only-during-the-bronze-age/
Read again my friend, R1B-L23 = Bell-beaker main ydna and it was found in the balkans.

The map and the link shows R1b l23 is related to Indo European expansion, you tard. Regardless if Bell Beakers had it or not. As it is well common in Indo European speakers like Albanians, Romanians, Greeks, Armenians etc. And was found in Yamnaya samples.

The R1b l23 in Balkans is the result of an IE expansion into the Balkans ... Armenians , Hitties etc moved from Balkans and into Anatolia , all IE speakers.

[Wrong]

Irish are highest in Bell Beaker genetics to modern day, and other northwestern Europeans.
And no Armenoid among them.

[IncelSlayer]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262962852_When_Beakers_Met_Bell_Beakers_An_analysi s_of_dental_remains
http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-brachycephalic-problematic.html

Bell beakers introduced firstly brachicephaly, flat occiput.

[IncelSlayer]

The map and the link shows R1b l23 is related to Indo European expansion, you tard. Regardless if Bell Beakers had it or not. As it is well common in Indo European speakers like Albanians, Romanians, Greeks, Armenians etc. And was found in Yamnaya samples.

The R1b l23 in Balkans is the result of an IE expansion into the Balkans ... Armenians , Hitties etc moved from Balkans and into Anatolia , all IE speakers.

Yes, its the result of indo-european expansion, still armenoid.

[Shqipez]

Weres that northern admixture among albanians? And the connection was already made by Coon a century ago.


Bell Beakers, who were anthropologically armenoid, were r1b-l23 almost entirely https://indo-european.eu/2018/02/olalde-et-al-and-mathieson-et-al-nature-2018-r1b-l23-dominates-bell-beaker-r1a-m417-resurges-only-during-the-bronze-age/
Most common ydna in armenians is still r1b-l23, the same.End of deal.
(R1b1a1a2a-L23* (L51- Z2105-) in Erzurum from the Balanovsky​ et al. (2017) study), found in a original armenian city.



They were mainly R1b-l23, read the newest study from 2018 and stop speaking.This is why where R1b-l23 peaks (N.Albania,Western Transilvania,Arvanite settled territories of Greece,Armenia) "dinarid" look peaks.

Coon also said this

https://i.imgur.com/nus9Ebs.png

[Shqipez]

Yes, its the result of indo-european expansion, still armenoid.

You mean like you ?

[Kelmendasi]

Evidence from newest study https://indo-european.eu/2018/02/olalde-et-al-and-mathieson-et-al-nature-2018-r1b-l23-dominates-bell-beaker-r1a-m417-resurges-only-during-the-bronze-age/
Olalde et al. and Mathieson et al. (Nature 2018): R1b-L23 dominates Bell Beaker

L23* doesnt peak in Albania, but L23 came from armenians since basal is from there, learn to read.
It doesn't say that they were L23*, L23 was being referred to as a broad haplogroup. When the samples were further tested they were shown to be from downstreams of L23 https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/02/19/y-snp-calls-for-bell-beaker-genomes/. I don't know why you refer to L23 as if it's some small SNP and not the ancestor of all major R1b clades. Basal clades being found in a certain area doesn't always mean the haplogroup comes from there

[Shqipez]

And no Armenoid among them.

They were possibly Kelto Nordid. Haven't read enough on this.

[Pribislav]

What's the total yDNA breakdown on the Sandzaklije tested?

Sandžak muslims - sample 189

E-V13 (78) - 41,2%
R1b (32) - 16,9%
I1 (12) - 12,7%
J2b (19) - 10%
I1 (10) - 5,3%
J2a (10) - 5,3%
R1a (5) - 2,6%
G2a (5) - 2,6%
T (2) - 1,1%
C (2) - 1,1%
H (1) - 0,6%
J1 (1) - 0,6%

This is statistic from 7-8 months ago.

[IncelSlayer]

It doesn't say that they were L23*, L23 was being referred to as a broad haplogroup.

Can you not read english?They weren't basal L23*, but they were downstream L23 almost entirely still.Since basal L23* is found in Armenia, L23 even today is the main ydna in Armenians and since L23 was spread by indo-europeans Bell beakers who were anthropologically armenoid and the first individuals with flat occiput ,draw your own conclusions.

[Kelmendasi]

Z2103 in the Balkans is from cultures such as Vucedol as shown by ancient DNA.

[Wrong]

They were possibly Kelto Nordid. Haven't read enough on this.
Yeah, and low-skulled, opposed to Dinaric high-skulled(highest vertex out of all phenotypes from hypsicephaly).

[Kelmendasi]

Can you not read english?They weren't basal L23*, but they were downstream L23 almost entirely still.Since basal L23* is found in Armenia, L23 even today is the main ydna in Armenians and since L23 was spread by indo-europeans Bell beakers who were anthropologically armenoid and the first individuals with flat occiput ,draw your own conclusions.
Did I not say that? "When the samples were further tested they were shown to be from downstreams of L23". Why are you getting so defensive? Chill

[Shqipez]

R1a among the Kuqi isn't really common but as you said, when it is found it is found among the families that were assimilated. The Berisha e Kuqe tested belong to the same Kuqi cluster that even the Montenegrin Kuqi belong to although this clade is shared with the Albanian Trieshi and a branch of Kastrati. The Berisha e Kuqe in Kosovo interestingly belong to a clade of L241 and not the Kuqi clade, L241 is common among Albanians

Interesting.

I think more Kuqi in Kosova need to be tested such as some people in Prekaz. Would be interesting

[Wrong]

Z2103 in the Balkans is from cultures such as Vucedol as shown by ancient DNA.
There are maps showing R1b expanding from the Balkans to the east(Anatolia-Armenia) and north-west(Austria).

[IncelSlayer]

Did I not say that? "When the samples were further tested they were shown to be from downstreams of L23". Why are you getting so defensive? Chill

Yes they were downstream of L23, what I said.It means that ultimately L23 looked armenoid as was proven even before we had genetic tests, by studying the bell beaker skulls.Why is it so hard to understand this?Its black on white clear.

[Kelmendasi]

Yes they were downstream of L23, what I said.It means that ultimately L23 looked armenoid as was proven even before we had genetic tests, by studying the bell beaker skulls.Why is it so hard to understand this?Its black on white clear.
I'm just trying to clarify how you should be referring to subclades and not just L23. I don't care about the whole anthropology side tbh, which is why im not commenting on it

[Jana]

This is how Yamnanya L23 carriers look on gedmatch:

Admix Results (sorted):

1 Baltic 41.42
2 West_Asian 31.04
3 North_Atlantic 20.51
4 South_Asian 4.19
5 Amerindian 2.84

Single Population Sharing:

1 Ukrainian_Belgorod 22.45
2 Erzya 23.9
3 Southwest_Russian 24.22
4 Ukrainian_Lviv 24.81
5 Tatar 24.99
6 Kargopol_Russian 25.17
7 Russian_Smolensk 25.39
8 Ukrainian 25.72
9 South_Polish 25.88
10 Moldavian 25.98
11 Polish 26.21
12 Croatian 26.55
13 Estonian_Polish 26.96
14 Belorussian 27.25
15 Lithuanian 27.88
16 Hungarian 28.63
17 Chuvash 28.9
18 Tabassaran 29
19 Estonian 29.15
20 Finnish 29.42

I very much doubt they were anything close to armenoid.

[Pribislav]

Muamer Hukic, also Sandzakli of Albanian origin. His family says so themselves that they are Malsors originally. Not sure what tribe.

http://sandzakpress.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Muamer-Hukic.jpg


I wonder what ydna they have.

Yes, he is of Albanian origin. Original surname is probably Hukaj.
He is from Pešter plateau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pešter
Vast majority of muslims from Pešter are Kelmendi, so he is probably Kelmendi.

[Wrong]

This is how Yamnanya L23 carriers look on gedmatch:

Admix Results (sorted):

1 Baltic 41.42
2 West_Asian 31.04
3 North_Atlantic 20.51
4 South_Asian 4.19
5 Amerindian 2.84

Single Population Sharing:

1 Ukrainian_Belgorod 22.45
2 Erzya 23.9
3 Southwest_Russian 24.22
4 Ukrainian_Lviv 24.81
5 Tatar 24.99
6 Kargopol_Russian 25.17
7 Russian_Smolensk 25.39
8 Ukrainian 25.72
9 South_Polish 25.88
10 Moldavian 25.98
11 Polish 26.21
12 Croatian 26.55
13 Estonian_Polish 26.96
14 Belorussian 27.25
15 Lithuanian 27.88
16 Hungarian 28.63
17 Chuvash 28.9
18 Tabassaran 29
19 Estonian 29.15
20 Finnish 29.42

I very much doubt they were anything close to armenoid.

That's the sample from Ukraine I take it?

Gradually they mixed with the Paleo-Balkan populations, the more south-west they moved.

[IncelSlayer]

This is how Yamnanya L23 carriers look on gedmatch:

Admix Results (sorted):

1 Baltic 41.42
2 West_Asian 31.04
3 North_Atlantic 20.51
4 South_Asian 4.19
5 Amerindian 2.84

Single Population Sharing:

1 Ukrainian_Belgorod 22.45
2 Erzya 23.9
3 Southwest_Russian 24.22
4 Ukrainian_Lviv 24.81
5 Tatar 24.99
6 Kargopol_Russian 25.17
7 Russian_Smolensk 25.39
8 Ukrainian 25.72
9 South_Polish 25.88
10 Moldavian 25.98
11 Polish 26.21
12 Croatian 26.55
13 Estonian_Polish 26.96
14 Belorussian 27.25
15 Lithuanian 27.88
16 Hungarian 28.63
17 Chuvash 28.9
18 Tabassaran 29
19 Estonian 29.15
20 Finnish 29.42

I very much doubt they were anything close to armenoid.

They were between nordoid and armenoid, what is called kelto-nordoid today(dinaricised nordid).Bell beakers were the first people with flat occiput, they introduced it in Europe.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262962852_When_Beakers_Met_Bell_Beakers_An_analysi s_of_dental_remains

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-brachycephalic-problematic.html

[Jana]

That's the sample from Ukraine I take it?

Gradually they mixed with the Paleo-Balkan populations, the more south-west they moved.

Yes. This Yamnanya samples are unlike any modern population, they were roughly EHG half CHG. Something like a mix of Latvian and Tajik xD

[Jana]

They were between nordoid and armenoid, what is called kelto-nordoid today(dinaricised nordid).Bell beakers were the first people with flat occiput, they introduced it in Europe.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262962852_When_Beakers_Met_Bell_Beakers_An_analysi s_of_dental_remains

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-brachycephalic-problematic.html

And ?

[Wrong]

They were between nordoid and armenoid, what is called kelto-nordoid today(dinaricised nordid).Bell beakers were the first people with flat occiput, they introduced it in Europe.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262962852_When_Beakers_Met_Bell_Beakers_An_analysi s_of_dental_remains

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-brachycephalic-problematic.html
Keltic-Nordics are low-skulled from CM admixture - opposed to the two types you mentioned, especially Armenoid.

Blending the two types you mentioned won't create Keltic-Nordic.

[Shqipez]

This is how Yamnanya L23 carriers look on gedmatch:

Admix Results (sorted):

1 Baltic 41.42
2 West_Asian 31.04
3 North_Atlantic 20.51
4 South_Asian 4.19
5 Amerindian 2.84

Single Population Sharing:

1 Ukrainian_Belgorod 22.45
2 Erzya 23.9
3 Southwest_Russian 24.22
4 Ukrainian_Lviv 24.81
5 Tatar 24.99
6 Kargopol_Russian 25.17
7 Russian_Smolensk 25.39
8 Ukrainian 25.72
9 South_Polish 25.88
10 Moldavian 25.98
11 Polish 26.21
12 Croatian 26.55
13 Estonian_Polish 26.96
14 Belorussian 27.25
15 Lithuanian 27.88
16 Hungarian 28.63
17 Chuvash 28.9
18 Tabassaran 29
19 Estonian 29.15
20 Finnish 29.42

I very much doubt they were anything close to armenoid.



Ukrainian is still far at 22 but these calcs always have to give you something back. Same with that Iron Age Montenigrin , it got Russian as closest but still far with a distance of 26. The other sample found in Montenegro was very different, interesting enough.

[Ylla]

That part of northwestern Italy was a Roman post, with Illyrian soldiers stationed to protect the Empire against the Gauls:

http://i64.tinypic.com/4fv0ar.png

Huno-Avaro-Slav Bosniensis can't comprehend this fact.

I remember there was a north italian member, her father was tested J2b2.

[IncelSlayer]

And ?

Historical craniometric studies found that the Beaker people appeared to be of a different physical type than those earlier populations in the same geographic areas. They were described as tall, heavy boned and brachycephalic.

[Jana]

dinarisation/armenisation def. looks to be connected with CHG, who were half in PIE peoples.

BUT, it does not come from R1 males, that is for sure. It must have been mediated from female lines of native Caucasus women that blended with steppe men and created Proto Indo-Europeans.

R1 men were probably robust nordics with some residual mongoloid like in Andronovo series.

[Kelmendasi]

Ukrainian is still far at 22 but these calcs always have to give you something back. Same with that Iron Age Montenigrin , it got Russian as closest but still far with a distance of 26. The other sample found in Montenegro was very different, interesting enough.
The other sample from Montenegro was closest to Tuscans iirc

[Jana]

Ukrainian is still far at 22 but these calcs always have to give you something back. Same with that Iron Age Montenigrin , it got Russian as closest but still far with a distance of 26. The other sample found in Montenegro was very different, interesting enough.

It is because modern East Slavs have much less west asian admixture than Yamnanyans had.

[Shqipez]

The other sample from Montenegro was closest to Tuscans iirc

Which is pretty much like a modern Albanian.

[CommonSense]

That part of northwestern Italy was a Roman post, with Illyrian soldiers stationed to protect the Empire against the Gauls:

http://i64.tinypic.com/4fv0ar.png

Huno-Avaro-Slav Bosniensis can't comprehend this fact.

Why is it so high in the Uralic region?

[Wrong]

It is because modern East Slavs have much less west asian admixture than Yamnanyans had.
Finno-Ugrics of Russia absorbed most of the Yamnaya admixture. While the language is a mystery to me, as these Russian folks are not IE-speakers.

[Shqipez]

It is because modern East Slavs have much less west asian admixture than Yamnanyans had.

Yes but it's not close to Russians or Slavs like people think. It's actually far away.


Why is it so high in the Uralic region?

Aliens.






Or maybe IE

[Wrong]

Why is it so high in the Uralic region?
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/late_neolithic_europe.gif

[Jana]

Finno-Ugrics of Russia absorbed most of the Yamnaya admixture. While the language is a mystery to me, as these Russian folks are not IE-speakers.

Yes, they are high in EHG, but too low in CHG and too high in mongoloid.
On the other hand, North Caucasians are very high in CHG and also in ANE.

If you mix something like Mordvin and Chechen, result should also be close to Yamnanyans, despite none if them is IE speaker :P

[IncelSlayer]

dinarisation/armenisation def. looks to be connected with CHG, who were half in PIE peoples.

BUT, it does not come from R1 males, that is for sure. It must have been mediated from female lines of native Caucasus women that blended with steppe men and created Proto Indo-Europeans.

R1 men were probably robust nordics with some residual mongoloid like in Andronovo series.

Lol armenians arent native to Caucasus, but eastern Anatolia, they just have today their country in S.Caucasus.

[Livin]

dinarisation/armenisation def. looks to be connected with CHG, who were half in PIE peoples.

BUT, it does not come from R1 males, that is for sure. It must have been mediated from female lines of native Caucasus women that blended with steppe men and created Proto Indo-Europeans.

R1 men were probably robust nordics with some residual mongoloid like in Andronovo series.

I agree 100%

[Wrong]

https://d8v5jhqx5tv4l.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/kura-araxes-late-iindo-european-uralic-migrations.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/HFyFvl2.jpg

[Jana]

Lol armenians arent native to Caucasus, but eastern Anatolia, they just have today their country in S.Caucasus.

Actually new paper on Caucasus refutes that. Entire Caucasus was Armenian like genetically before steppe invasions. It is North Caucasians that changed more from ancient times compared to Transcaucasians.

[Jana]

Yes but it's not close to Russians or Slavs like people think. It's actually far away.

Yes, it is not very close to Russians.

[IncelSlayer]

Actually new paper on Caucasus refutes that. Entire Caucasus was Armenian like genetically before steppe invasions. It is North Caucasians that changed more from ancient times compared to Transcaucasians.

Im talking about today armenians, they lived in East Anatolia before, we already know N.Caucasians aren't native to Caucasus.

[Jana]

Im talking about today armenians, they lived in East Anatolia before, we already know N.Caucasians aren't native to Caucasus.

True. But you can't say N.Caucasians are not native, they are, but they received significant gene-flow from the steppes.

[Shqipez]

Yes, it is not very close to Russians.

No. It is very far. I don't even get any populations at 26. The furthest is 16 and 18 on some of these calcs which is Spanish on some others 26 I get would be like a North Slav or Caucasus , West Asian, Middle East or something. That is very far from an Albanian.

[IncelSlayer]

True. But you can't say N.Caucasians are not native, they are, but they received significant gene-flow from the steppes.

Depends on the time.Native in the last thousand of years?True.Original Caucasus inhabitants?No.Their paternal line is eastern med,neither L,nor G2b, nor J1 or R1b-l23 found in Caucasus cultures and nearby areas.

[Jana]

No. It is very far. I don't even get any populations at 26. The furthest is 16 and 18 on some of these calcs which is Spanish on some others 26 I get would be like a North Slav or Caucasus , West Asian, Middle East or something. That is very far from an Albanian.

???

[Jana]

Depends on the time.Native in the last thousand of years?True.Original Caucasus inhabitants?No.Their paternal line is eastern med,neither L,nor G2b, nor J1 or R1b-l23 found in Caucasus cultures and nearby areas.

They migrated from fertile crescect area tousands of years ago, at least that is what can be traced archeologically.

[Shqipez]

???

The Iron Age Montenigrin sample gets Russian as first but it gets it at distance of 26

Russian_Smolensk 26.97


It's as distant to Russian as I am to a North European, Middle Eastern or Caucasian if not more.

[Jana]

The Iron Age Montenigrin sample gets Russian as first but it gets it at distance of 26

Russian_Smolensk26.97


It's as distant to Russian as I am to a North European, Middle Eastern or Caucasian if not more.

But that is what I said. :)

[Kelmendasi]

Depends on the time.Native in the last thousand of years?True.Original Caucasus inhabitants?No.Their paternal line is eastern med,neither L,nor G2b, nor J1 or R1b-l23 found in Caucasus cultures and nearby areas.
J1 has been found in Paleolthic Georgia. But perhaps you're talking about modern Caucasus? Dagestan is like 90% J1

[Shqipez]

Z2103 in the Balkans is from cultures such as Vucedol as shown by ancient DNA.

You are absolutely right.

The sample found in Croatia was not l23 but z2103 and afaik no Bell Beakers were found to be z2103 , at least not in large parts.

Z2103 is also associated with IE expansion so we are also looking at a Proto Ilyrian there , much like the J2b2 L283.

The sample found in Dalmatia belongs to an old clade of l283 which is one of the ancestral clades of PH1751, which is common in Albos.

[Shqipez]

R1b z2103 peaks in Albanians

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-K-7fNZ3iGEY/Wr9zOpUYAJI/AAAAAAAAEwU/IIwD_YeFPq04XltJsp-wqd8YvKnLYf5mwCLcBGAs/s1600/R1b-Z2103.JPG

[Voskos]

Tosks seem to have low J2b2 . Why is that?

[Shqipez]

Tosks seem to have low J2b2 . Why is that?

Because they are not Ilirs but cousins of the Ilirs, the Epirotes.

[Livin]

R1b z2103 peaks in Albanians

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-K-7fNZ3iGEY/Wr9zOpUYAJI/AAAAAAAAEwU/IIwD_YeFPq04XltJsp-wqd8YvKnLYf5mwCLcBGAs/s1600/R1b-Z2103.JPG

This haplo hits also hard if i remember well among Pontic Greeks.

In whole anatolia to be more specific!

[Shqipez]

Joking aside, it could be a bottle neck effect.

[Voskos]

Because they are not Ilirs but cousins of the Ilirs, the Epirotes.

Epirotes were neither Albanian nor Greek imo. They must have initially resembled Etruscans and probably spoke their own barbarian language.

[Shqipez]

This haplo hits also hard if i remember well among Pontic Greeks.

In whole anatolia to be more specific!

Yeah, it's common in parts of Greece too. At least l23.

[Livin]

Epirotes were neither Albanian nor Greek imo. They must have initially resembled Etruscans and probably spoke their own barbarian language.

I think they are neolithic EV13 mostly.Some parts hellenized other parts illyricized!

[Kelmendasi]

Tosks seem to have low J2b2 . Why is that?
They don't have low J2b2, their percentage of J2b2 is around 10-15%. One study showed that Tosks had 16% J2 and I believe that around 13-15% of that is J2b2 with the rest being J2a.

[Voskos]

They don't have low J2b2, their percentage of J2b2 is around 10-15%. One study showed that Tosks had 16% J2 and I believe that around 13-15% of that is J2b2 with the rest being J2a.

That's pretty low compared to Ghegs, especially Kosovars. that was what i meant.

[Shqipez]

This haplo hits also hard if i remember well among Pontic Greeks.

In whole anatolia to be more specific!

It is from Indo Europeans there like Hitties and probably even Trojans. Before the Turkic invaders came.

[Kelmendasi]

That's pretty low compared to Ghegs, especially Kosovars. that was what i meant.
Yh compared to Ghegs it is kinda low. It's probably just due to J2b2 Ghegs having more sons than their Tosk counter parts.

[Pribislav]

They don't have low J2b2, their percentage of J2b2 is around 10-15%. One study showed that Tosks had 16% J2 and I believe that around 13-15% of that is J2b2 with the rest being J2a.

Do you have y dna statistic for Ghegs and Tosks?

[Shqipez]

I think they are neolithic EV13 mostly.Some parts hellenized other parts illyricized!

I agree with this. At least the last part. Some Tosks share Ydnas with Greeks that are not found in Ghegs like I2a2 which is pre Slavic I believe and was found in ancient Balkan remains. Some Tosks seem native to Southern Albania together with Greeks, others seem to of come from more North. They also have some haplogroups either related to some Vikings, Normans or whatever and to Slavs or possibly Vlachs since the high I2a1b in Vlachs in South Albania seems to be a bottle neck. Tosks possibly absorbed this.

[Kelmendasi]

Do you have y dna statistic for Ghegs and Tosks?
Yh. I use the statistics from the Albanian bloodlines project and sometimes from studies. The study which put Tosk J2 at 16% was one about the Roma in Albania but the study also covered Albanians, although idk how accurate it was a some of the Roma were most likely declaring as Albanian for some of the samples. Statistics from the project http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/

[Shqipez]

Yh compared to Ghegs it is kinda low. It's probably just due to J2b2 Ghegs having more sons than their Tosk counter parts.

There are some differences among Tosks and Ghegs in ydna frequency and autosomal but there are also overlaps. Tosks autosomally are more South and they have some ydna's not found in Ghegs, At least not very much.

J2b2 l283 possibly reached Greece with the Mycenaneans and not just Arvanite. What do you think ?

[Livin]

It is from Indo Europeans there like Hitties and probably even Trojans. Before the Turkic invaders came.

yep ancient anatolians who brought the indoeuropean languaanges to anatolia

[Wrong]

Epirotes were neither Albanian nor Greek imo. They must have initially resembled Etruscans and probably spoke their own barbarian language.
Or a mix of both... TosCaN!

[Shqipez]

Northern Tosks and Central Albanians or Southern Ghegs overlap well for example. The biggest difference is among the Northenmost Ghegs and Southernmost Tosks.

From what I know, Labs seem like some Ghegs in ydna frequency ? But I saw a lab on that k15 pca map and he was extremely South. Even more South than mainland Greeks.

[Livin]

I agree with this. At least the last part. Some Tosks share Ydnas with Greeks that are not found in Ghegs like I2a2 which is pre Slavic I believe and was found in ancient Balkan remains. Some Tosks seem native to Southern Albania together with Greeks, others seem to of come from more North. They also have some haplogroups either related to some Vikings, Normans or whatever and to Slavs or possibly Vlachs since the high I2a1b in Vlachs in South Albania seems to be a bottle neck. Tosks possibly absorbed this.

Yep Tosks also have some slavic input like epirotes and northern greeks too!!!


But i believe that epirotes in general are neolithic EV13 populations that eventually become Greeks and the more northern parts become illyrians etc.

To me EV13 is the pelasgian haplogroup in whole balkan area.It has to do with the pre-J2 people and pre-indoeuropeans.

[Kelmendasi]

There are some differences among Tosks and Ghegs in ydna frequency and autosomal but there are also overlaps. Tosks autosomally are more South and they have some ydna's not found in Ghegs, At least not very much.

J2b2 l283 possibly reached Greece with the Mycenaneans and not just Arvanite. What do you think ?
I think that it depends on clade. Perhaps some older clades that have high TMRCAs may have arrived with Proto-Hellenic peoples such as the Mycenaeans, although I think that their main J2 was certainly J2a. Majority of it imo is from the Arvanites.

[Wrong]

There are some differences among Tosks and Ghegs in ydna frequency and autosomal but there are also overlaps. Tosks autosomally are more South and they have some ydna's not found in Ghegs, At least not very much.

J2b2 l283 possibly reached Greece with the Mycenaneans and not just Arvanite. What do you think ?
Possible, or Dorians, since most evidence points the Dorians came from the direction of Albania & FYROM.

[Kelmendasi]

Northern Tosks and Central Albanians or Southern Ghegs overlap well for example. The biggest difference is among the Northenmost Ghegs and Southernmost Tosks.

From what I know, Labs seem like some Ghegs in ydna frequency ? But I saw a lab on that k15 pca map and he was extremely South. Even more South than mainland Greeks.
Labs have a higher amount of J2b2 compared to other Tosk groups, interestingly they seem to form their own clade of I1 as well

[Wrong]

I think that it depends on clade. Perhaps some older clades that have high TMRCAs may have arrived with Proto-Hellenic peoples such as the Mycenaeans, although I think that their main J2 was certainly J2a. Majority of it imo is from the Arvanites.
Don't know what the IE elite Greek haplogroup was yet, the Mycenaean J2a sample was heavily mixed and contained only 15% Steppe, pretty low for a proto-Greek IE invader.

To me the Mycenaean sample looks more like a Minoan mixed with a mainland proto-Greek population of higher Steppe ancestry.

[Bosniensis]

Don't know what the IE elite Greek haplogroup was yet, the Mycenaean J2a sample was heavily mixed and contained only 15% Steppe, pretty low for a proto-Greek IE invader.

To me the Mycenaean sample looks more like a Minoan mixed with a mainland proto-Greek population of higher Steppe ancestry.

Greeks emerged from Syrian and Sumerian civilization that was influenced later by Egyptian civilization.

Cousins to Greeks are Persians.

[Livin]

Don't know what the IE elite Greek haplogroup was yet, the Mycaenean J2a sample was heavily mixed and contained only 15% Steppe, pretty low for a proto-Greek IE invader.

To me it looks more like a Minoan mixed with a mainland proto-Greek population of higher Steppe ancestry.

The steppe ancestry is fucking low but how the fuck we talking an indoeuropean languange xdddd....!!!


Its still a mystery and this Pontian retard Lazaridis doing shit ;)

[Wrong]

The only proper Ancient Greek words that the Albanian language contains is from Doric Greek.

[Livin]

Greeks emerged from Syrian and Sumerian civilization that was influenced later by Egyptian civilization.

Cousins to Greeks are Persians.

And the joke of the day....

[Wrong]

Greeks emerged from Syrian and Sumerian civilization that was influenced later by Egyptian civilization.

Cousins to Greeks are Persians.
Insignificant post from insignificant poster.

[Kelmendasi]

The only Ancient Greek words the Albanian language contains is from Doric Greek.
Yh and vast majority of the Greek words in Albanian are from this ancient Doric Greek interestingly.

[Livin]

Yh and vast majority of the Greek words in Albanian are from this ancient Doric Greek interestingly.

So,we end up that dorians and illyrians were something like cousins?

[Wrong]

Yh and vast majority of the Greek words in Albanian are from this ancient Doric Greek interestingly.
Perhaps Dorics were a Greco-Ilirian group.

[Kelmendasi]

So,we end up that dorians and illyrians were something like cousins?
I don't think so, but I do think that this suggests contact between the ancestors of Albanians and ancient Dorians

[Bosniensis]

Insignificant post from insignificant poster.

:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

[Skerdilaid]

Why is it so high in the Uralic region?

Peaks among Tatars and most certainly European influence (from Central Europe?), because all seem to be under Y12000: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z631/

[Bosniensis]

Peaks among Tatars and most certainly European influence (from Central Europe?), because all seem to be under Y12000: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z631/

Remember that after Muslim conquest of Constantinople, many Romans moved to Moscow as the last Christian stronghold as they called it.

[Shqipez]

Too many butthurts in these threads giving thumbs down, can't handle the truth.

Some updating or important points to note and that have been discussed:

z2103 found in Croatia was never found in much or any bell Beakers but is associated with IE expansion and common among Albanians which makes IncelFags larping pointless to begin with

At the same time the j2b2 is obviously a proto Ilyrian or a Indo European settler. Again the nonsense larping that these samples are older supposedly.

Seems like Albanians are largely descendants of IE males.

The Proto Ilyrians neither the Indo Europeans were nothing like East Europeans or Slavs or East Slavs... The Iron Age Montenigrin and Yamnaya are getting Russian at a distance of 26 and 22 which isn't close, despite it gets it as first, even adding it on a pca map would show this.

[Wrong]

Too many butthurts in these threads giving thumbs down, can't handle the truth.

Some updating or important points to note and that have been discussed:

z2103 found in Croatia was never found in much or any bell Beakers but is associated with IE expansion and common among Albanians which makes IncelFags larping pointless to begin with

At the same time the j2b2 is obviously a proto Ilyrian or a Indo European settler. Again the nonsense larping that these samples are older supposedly.

Seems like Albanians are largely descendants of IE males.

The Proto Ilyrians neither the Indo Europeans were nothing like East Europeans or Slavs or East Slavs... The Iron Age Montenigrin and Yamnaya are getting Russian at a distance of 26 and 22 which isn't close, despite it gets it as first, even adding it on a pca map would show this.
HAIL GHEGNIA!

[Shqipez]

HAIL GHEGNIA!

HAIL ILIRIA!

[Wrong]

To be completely honest, pretty ironic how some butthurt members are giving this informative thread thumb-downs.

[Shqipez]

To be completely honest, pretty ironic how some butthurt members are giving this informative thread thumb-downs.

Too much reality for them

Celts described as cousins of Ilyrians, how can Albanians j2 and ev13 be related to Celts? You see I'm smart , there evidence debunked ..

[Wrong]

Too much reality for them

Celts described as cousins of Ilyrians, how can Albanians j2 and ev13 be related to Celts? You see I'm smart , there evidence debunked ..
They have all been debunked in every single point. Ignorants have to stick their Armenoid noses in others business.

[Shqipez]

They have all been debunked in every single point. Ignorants have to stick their Armenoid noses in others business.

I'm pretty sure Celts were largely R1b of some clade?

[Wrong]

I'm pretty sure Celts were largely R1b of some clade?
According to Eupedia:

Atlantic-Celtic branch: R1b-S145

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif

Italo-Celtic branch:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif


The Gallic & Iberian branch:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.png


They're all still younger than the Balkan branch.

[Kelmendasi]

R1b-S145 I would assume

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif
Yh that as well as others like U152 and DF27

[Wrong]

Yh that as well as others like U152 and DF27
Yeah, updated my post with more.

[Shqipez]

According to Eupedia:

Atlantic-Celtic branch: R1b-S145

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif

Italo-Celtic branch:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif


The Gallic & Iberian branch:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.png


They're all still younger than the Balkan branch.

But no I2 Celts :(

[Shqipez]

It is funny how people cannot even differitinate between clades .. as if all I2 clades are the same or R1b etc .

[Kelmendasi]

It is funny how people cannot even differitinate between clades .. as if all I2 clades are the same or R1b etc .
Yh that is a major problem here lol

[Wrong]

It is funny how people cannot even differitinate between clades .. as if all I2 clades are the same or R1b etc .
We might aswell be done with it and just name it I... J... R.

or IJ... KAVKAAAAAAAAAAZ-FERTILE CRESCENT-IRANIC PLATEAU



ETHIOPIA

[Wrong]

Will look forward to bring more Albanian homies on TA.

More traffic is good.

[IncelSlayer]

Too many butthurts in these threads giving thumbs down, can't handle the truth.

Some updating or important points to note and that have been discussed:

z2103 found in Croatia was never found in much or any bell Beakers but is associated with IE expansion and common among Albanians which makes IncelFags larping pointless to begin with

At the same time the j2b2 is obviously a proto Ilyrian or a Indo European settler. Again the nonsense larping that these samples are older supposedly.

Seems like Albanians are largely descendants of IE males.

The Proto Ilyrians neither the Indo Europeans were nothing like East Europeans or Slavs or East Slavs... The Iron Age Montenigrin and Yamnaya are getting Russian at a distance of 26 and 22 which isn't close, despite it gets it as first, even adding it on a pca map would show this.

Lmao, both the z2103 and other L23 branches did not develop in central Europe, Bell Beaker is just a name of the culture, skull wise albania was bell beaker brachy at that time so unlike their true illyrian neighbours and the j2b2 albanians have is pretty much foreign everywere else so its impossible the illyrians who had the entire adriatic coast to have carried it in any signifiant number(let alone all albanian only ydnas) not to mention that the J2B2 sample precedes illyrian by a few hundred years and a lot can change during that time , Europe itself will be vastly different in a few decades let alone hundreds of years.
And you don't know how gedmatch works, it gets high distances but all northern nations first because of a little west asian mixture that pulls it out of Europe cluster but still closest to those northern nations.
But as i previously said even if somehow all your excluvistic ydna were illyrians, which is impossible, you would have as much claim on those IE people as much as indians have them on their r1a conquerors, after all you can't claim to be X population if genetically you are nothing like them.

[Shqipez]

Lmao, both the z2103 and other L23 branches did not develop in central Europe, Bell Beaker is just a name of the culture, skull wise albania was bell beaker brachy at that time so unlike their true illyrian neighbours and the j2b2 albanians have is pretty much foreign everywere else so its impossible the illyrians who had the entire adriatic coast to have carried it in any signifiant number not to mention that the J2B2 sample precedes illyrian by a few hundred years and a lot can change during that time , Europe itself will be vastly different in a few decades let alone hundreds of years.
And you don't know how gedmatch works, it gets high distances but all northern nations first because of a little west asian mixture that pulls it out of Europe cluster but still closest to those northern nations.
But as i previously said even if somehow all your excluvistic ydna were illyrians, which is impossible, you would have as much claim on those IE people as much as indians have them on their r1a conquerors, after all you can't claim to be X population if genetically you are nothing like them.

I'm not saying that the z2103 or l23 developed in central Europe. Seems like you have a fucked up eyesight. Take a look at my post again and show me ? I told you hundred times z2103 is associated with IE expansion which began from the steppes. Samples found there of yamnaya turned out to be z2103 and l23. From there they moved into the rest of Europe, including central Europe and then the Balkans.

The z2103 is an Indo European and most likely an Ilyrian.

The J2b2 sample doesn't precede Ilyrians, it is actually few hundred years after colonisation of the Balkans by the Ilyrians. It is a late bronze age sample and had obvious steppe admixture. Most certainly an Ilyrian.

Brachiness or Dinaricisation in Albania didn't come from Bell Beakers. Bell Beakers were a culture situated in central and western Europe. Dinarics are a hybrid of Nordics/Meds brachified from Alpine admixture.

The Ilyrians had a minority of Dinarics, when they reached the Balkans it increased from mixing with natives etc.

This isn't anthropology but Ydna we are talking about. Skulls can be very misleading. People of different populations can have similar skulls.

These samples were one of the few samples found in the Western Balkans afaik which should tell you enough. Surely it isn't a coincidence that they happened to be j2b2 , z2103. Etc.

We can very well claim to be them because the proto Ilyrians were Hallstatt people that brought the language and ydna's into the Balkans from there they mixed with natives and that's how the historical Ilyrians developed , you fucking low IQ piece of shit, which does make us Ilyrians and genetically the same.

Proto Ilyrians would also of been the farmers in the Balkans since they also contributed to the historical Ilyrians of the Balkans, genetically, culturally and linguistically and not just the Hallstatt.

Or do you really think the Ilyrians that emerged in the Balkans thousands of years after they settled were the same as the ones who came from Hallstatt or the Steppes?

Regarding Nordid skulls etc and glasinac.., Coon pretty much believed that the northernmost Ghegs actually came from Glasinac, from Bosnia, Croatia etc ... he clearly referred to the Ghegs as Dinaricised Nordo-Meds.

The sample in Dalmatia has Neolithic admixture which it possibly could of brought intonthe Balkans. Some Yamnaya samples found in steppes also had Neolithic admixture. The Neolithic increased probably from mixing even more with natives,


What we know here is that South Slavs for sure ain't Ilyrians with their I2a1b and R1a. They might of mixed to some extent. This claim is now debunked. These findings speak for themselves.


We are very much similar to the historical Ilyrians that emerged in the Balkans ... genetically, autosomally etc.

Nobody is 100% identical to the original steppe people or IE.

[Wrong]

I'm not saying that the z2103 or l23 developed in central Europe. Seems like you have a fucked up eyesight. Take a look at my post again and show me ? I told you hundred times z2103 is associated with IE expansion which began from the steppes. Samples found there of yamnaya turned out to be z2103 and l23. From there they moved into the rest of Europe, including central Europe and then the Balkans.

The z2103 is an Indo European and most likely an Ilyrian.

The J2b2 sample doesn't precede Ilyrians, it is actually few hundred years after colonisation of the Balkans by the Ilyrians. It is a late bronze age sample and had obvious steppe admixture. Most certainly an Ilyrian.

Brachiness or Dinaricisation in Albania didn't come from Bell Beakers. Bell Beakers were a culture situated in central and western Europe. Dinarics are a hybrid of Nordics/Meds brachified from Alpine admixture.

The Ilyrians had a minority of Dinarics, when they reached the Balkans it increased from mixing with natives etc.

This isn't anthropology but Ydna we are talking about. Skulls can be very misleading. People of different populations can have similar skulls.

These samples were one of the few samples found in the Western Balkans afaik which should tell you enough. Surely it isn't a coincidence that they happened to be j2b2 , z2103. Etc.

We can very well claim to be them because the proto Ilyrians were Hallstatt people that brought the language and ydna's into the Balkans from there they mixed with natives and that's how the historical Ilyrians developed , you fucking low IQ piece of shit, which does make us Ilyrians and genetically the same.

Proto Ilyrians would also of been the farmers in the Balkans since they also contributed to the historical Ilyrians of the Balkans, genetically, culturally and linguistically and not just the Hallstatt.

Or do you really think the Ilyrians that emerged in the Balkans thousands of years after they settled were the same as the ones who came from Hallstatt or the Steppes?

Regarding Nordid skulls etc and glasinac.., Coon pretty much believed that the northernmost Ghegs actually came from Glasinac, from Bosnia, Croatia etc ... he clearly referred to the Ghegs as Dinaricised Nordo-Meds.

The sample in Dalmatia has Neolithic admixture which it possibly could of brought intonthe Balkans. Some Yamnaya samples found in steppes also had Neolithic admixture. The Neolithic increased probably from mixing even more with natives,


What we know here is that South Slavs for sure ain't Ilyrians with their I2a1b and R1a. They might of mixed to some extent. This claim is now debunked. These findings speak for themselves.


We are very much similar to the historical Ilyrians that emerged in the Balkans ... genetically, autosomally etc.

Nobody is 100% identical to the original steppe people or IE.

The more he attempts to mislead people on Albanians, the more I know the Illyrian tribes all the way from the north of Balkans were near-completely transitioned into Gheg Albanians, and them only, with a minory being absorbed by Slavs.

[Shqipez]

The more he attempts to mislead people on Albanians, the more I know the Illyrian tribes all the way from the north of Balkans were near-completely transitioned into Gheg Albanians.

Skulls can be extremely misleading.

For example Ilyrian skulls that are Nordic or Neo Danubian can match a Bosniak or a Polak but this doesn't mean that those latter populations are descendants of Ilyrians. Same with Dinarics, they have the same skulls.

Nordic, Med and Neo Danubian skulls and possibly some Dinaric were also brought by Slavs possibly. And not just Ilyrians. This is why genetics are important. During Coons time genetics did not even exist.

[Moje ime]

The more he attempts to mislead people on Albanians, the more I know the Illyrian tribes all the way from the north of Balkans were near-completely transitioned into Gheg Albanians, and them only, with a minory being absorbed by Slavs.

But they never heard for bagpipes that are played in all other places around Kosovo and are definitely pre Slavic instrument. How to explain that?

[Wrong]

Skulls can be extremely misleading.

For example Ilyrian skulls that are Nordic or Neo Danubian can match a Bosniak or a Polak but this doesn't mean that those latter populations are descendants of Ilyrians. Same with Dinarics, they have the same skulls.

Nordic, Med and Neo Danubian skulls and possibly some Dinaric were also brought by Slavs possibly. And not just Ilyrians. This is why genetics are important. During Coons time genetics did not even exist.
Arabid skulls are closer to Corded Nordics than Dinaric skulls are, metrically.

Both Dolicho & Long-faced.

[Kelmendasi]

But they never heard for bagpipes that are played in all other places around Kosovo and are definitely pre Slavic instrument. How to explain that?
Albanians actually do use these bagpipes but they aren't that common. It's called Gajde, I think you lot call it the same thing

[Wrong]

Kosovars & many North Albanians have CELTIC blood

KELTO-HALLSTATT-ILIRS REPRESENT

https://www.worldmapsonline.com/images/Cram/History/culturesracesofeurope.jpg

[Moje ime]

Albanians actually do use these bagpipes but they aren't that common. It's called Gajde, I think you lot call it the same thing

Yes they are called gajde. That is why I asked few times for oldest possible Albanian music or instruments examples, not Ottoman style songs.

[Moje ime]

Kosovars & many North Albanians have CELTIC blood




Serbs too.

[Shqipez]

But they never heard for bagpipes that are played in all other places around Kosovo and are definitely pre Slavic instrument. How to explain that?

Because you are ancient people of the Balkans and Albanians are Kavkaz.


What fucked up arguments you people use... bosnienis arguement... nobody is saying you dont mix with natives but it's funny how you treat those natives different from us.

Not sure what bagpipes you're talking about? I guess since you play bagpipes and we don't this makes you the real paleo Balkan people despite contrary genetic evidence

If you wanna talk about paleo Balkan culture , I can show you plenty that Albanian has. We have mythology from Ilyrians and ancient Greeks, we have costumes, flutes, etc and we got the genetics and language... culture and language can change.

You might of adopted certain elements while we let go of those very same. Etc.

How is it that Albanians are the only ones to wear the plis ?

[Wrong]

Serbs too.
^Nearly 0% in terms of yDNA.

[IncelSlayer]

I'm not saying that the z2103 or l23 developed in central Europe. Seems like you have a fucked up eyesight. Take a look at my post again and show me ? I told you hundred times z2103 is associated with IE expansion which began from the steppes. Samples found there of yamnaya turned out to be z2103 and l23. From there they moved into the rest of Europe, including central Europe and then the Balkans.

The z2103 is an Indo European and most likely an Ilyrian.

The J2b2 sample doesn't precede Ilyrians, it is actually few hundred years after colonisation of the Balkans by the Ilyrians. It is a late bronze age sample and had obvious steppe admixture. Most certainly an Ilyrian.

Brachiness or Dinaricisation in Albania didn't come from Bell Beakers. Bell Beakers were a culture situated in central and western Europe. Dinarics are a hybrid of Nordics/Meds brachified from Alpine admixture.

The Ilyrians had a minority of Dinarics, when they reached the Balkans it increased from mixing with natives etc.

This isn't anthropology but Ydna we are talking about. Skulls can be very misleading. People of different populations can have similar skulls.

These samples were one of the few samples found in the Western Balkans afaik which should tell you enough. Surely it isn't a coincidence that they happened to be j2b2 , z2103. Etc.

We can very well claim to be them , you slimey dumb fuck because the proto Ilyrians were Hallstatt people that brought the language and ydna's into the Balkans from there they mixed with natives and that's how the historical Ilyrians developed , you fucking low IQ piece of shit, which does make us Ilyrians and genetically the same.

Proto Ilyrians would also of been the farmers in the Balkans since they also contributed to the historical Ilyrians of the Balkans, genetically, culturally and linguistically and not just the Hallstatt.

Or do you really think the Ilyrians that emerged in the Balkans thousands of years after they settled were the same as the ones who came from Hallstatt or the Steppes?

Regarding Nordid skulls etc and glasinac.., Coon pretty much believed that the northernmost Ghegs actually came from Glasinac, from Bosnia, Croatia etc ... he clearly referred to the Ghegs as Dinaricised Nordo-Meds.

The sample in Dalmatia has Neolithic admixture which it possibly could of brought intonthe Balkans. Some Yamnaya samples found in steppes also had Neolithic admixture. The Neolithic increased probably from mixing even more with natives,


What we know here is that South Slavs for sure ain't Ilyrians with their I2a1b and R1a. They might of mixed to some extent. This claim is now debunked. These findings speak for themselves.


We are very much similar to the historical Ilyrians that emerged in the Balkans ... genetically, autosomally etc.

Nobody is 100% identical to the original steppe people or IE.
Only the dolicho nordids dominant zones were the inheritors of the earlier cultures that precede Illyrians, the brachy bell beakers are not , same as even in Albania the steppes were dominant nordid wheras the brachy element was dominant in the mountains pushed by these nordid invaders(just for few milenials later those sparse bell beakers from mountains to claim they were the illyrians), Coon says this himself and its a fact.

The j2b2 sample is from late bronze age, the illyrian samples were from late Iron Age, totally different time but then again this is irrelevant, no one gives a damn about ydna except when it comes to migrations, you can't be a steppe population when you're at the bottom of Europe in terms of steppe mixture and with flat brachy 100 cephalic index, let alone talking about cultures,costumes and language when they didnt find those white egg cracked egg shells hats that you stole later from God knows who and clown boots in any illyrian graves.

And yes, bracycephaly in dinarids is associated with Bell beakers, read Coon 100 years ago said the Bell Beakers skulls were identical to dinarid and precursor to them , its Bell Beakers who brought dinarid/bracy process/skulls in Europe from basques to kelts to dinarids and armenoids.
http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-brachycephalic-problematic.html

[Wrong]

Because you are ancient people of the Balkans and Albanians are Kavkaz.


What fucked up arguments you people use... bosnienis arguement... nobody is saying you dont mix with natives but it's funny how you treat those natives different from us.

Not sure what bagpipes you're talking about? I guess since you play bagpipes and we don't this makes you the real paleo Balkan people despite contrary genetic evidence

If you wanna talk about paleo Balkan culture , I can show you plenty that Albanian has. We have mythology from Ilyrians and ancient Greeks, we have costumes, flutes, etc and we got the genetics and language... culture and language can change.

You might of adopted certain elements while we let go of those very same. Etc.

How is it that Albanians are the only ones to wear the plis ?
We use the plis since we are the true descendants of Alexander The Great.

[Kelmendasi]

Yes they are called gajde. That is why I asked few times for oldest possible Albanian music or instruments examples, not Ottoman style songs.
Well we have the Gajde, Lahuta(Gusle in Serbian) and flute(Kavall) although some say that the flute in the Balkans has Turkish origins but that may be debated.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjFJT2G_XPI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ab-eiIYgyc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DX7YW759rI

[Jana]

^Nearly 0% in terms of yDNA.

G2a among Serbs is Celto-Germanic branch :)

[Wrong]

G2a among Serbs is Celto-Germanic branch :)
It's Neolithic, Bosniensis said it. Branches do not exist..

[Shqipez]

Only the dolicho nordids dominant zones were the inheritors of the earlier cultures that precede Illyrians, the brachy bell beakers are not , same as even in Albania the steppes were dominant nordid wheras the brachy element was dominant in the mountains pushed by these nordid invaders, Coon says this himself and its a fact.The j2b2 sample is from late bronze age, the illyrian samples were from late Iron Age, totally different time but then again this is irrelevant, no one gives a damn about ydna except when it comes to migrations, you can't be a steppe population when you're at the bottom of Europe in terms of steppe mixture and with flat brachy 100 cephalic index, let alone talking about cultures,costumes and language when they didnt find those white egg cracked egg shells and clown boots in any illyrian graves.
And yes, bracycephaly in dinarids is associated with Bell beakers, read Coon 100 years ago said the Bell Beakers skulls were identical to albanian ones, its Bell Beakers who brought dinarid/bracy process/skulls in Europe from basques to kelts to dinarids and armenoids.
http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-brachycephalic-problematic.html

The Ilyrians as a population formed in the Balkans and not in Hallstatt. The ones in Hallstatt were proto Ilyrians. They mixed with natives in the Balkans and that's how we got our genetics. The result of such a mixture.

None of the samples were found in Albania, they were found in Croatia. Far away from large brachiness. Many skulls there were doli. These things can change from mixing etc.

The j2b2 sample is late bronze age , few hundred years after colonisation. Bronze Age were Indo Europeans.

All those graves digged up and you're trying to argue none of them had anything to do with any native Balkanites.

Nope. He never said that. Dinaricisation occurs anywhere in the world. It's a hybrid type.

[IncelSlayer]

We use the plis since we are the true descendants of Alexander The Great.

Yeah, I agree with you, ancient greeks like Alexander the Great did not come from Argos,they were J2b2>L283 shqiptars from Fyrom.

[Jana]

It's Neolithic, Bosniensis said it. Branches do not exist..

It Matches live in Western Europe where it was absorbed by Celts and later Germans.
Even E V13 has Germanic subclade

[Moje ime]

Because you are ancient people of the Balkans and Albanians are Kavkaz.


What fucked up arguments you people use... bosnienis arguement... nobody is saying you dont mix with natives but it's funny how you treat those natives different from us.

Not sure what bagpipes you're talking about? I guess since you play bagpipes and we don't this makes you the real paleo Balkan people despite contrary genetic evidence

If you wanna talk about paleo Balkan culture , I can show you plenty that Albanian has. We have mythology from Ilyrians and ancient Greeks, we have costumes, flutes, etc and we got the genetics and language... culture and language can change.

You might of adopted certain elements while we let go of those very same. Etc.

How is it that Albanians are the only ones to wear the plis ?

No I don't think that Serbs are ancient people of the Balkans. I just didn't see much of those ancient elements in your culture. I asked few times but got poor answers.

[Wrong]

Yeah, I agree with you, ancient greeks like Alexander the Great did not come from Argos,they were J2b2>L283 shqiptars from Fyrom.
https://zeus10.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/scull.jpg

[Moje ime]

^Nearly 0% in terms of yDNA.

What is Celtic haplogroup? R1b?

[Jana]

How did Coon know these Illyrian skulls Were Nordic ?
Their pigmentation is not known to us plus he was a nordicist

Might as well been med skulls, no metrical difference

[Wrong]

It Matches live in Western Europe where it was absorbed by Celts and later Germans.
Even E V13 has Germanic subclade
I2 is Celtic, according to Bosniensis. ;)

Make it I, as clades do not exist, he mentioned.

[IncelSlayer]

https://zeus10.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/scull.jpg

But your hat is muslim in origin,all muslim countries have it.The ancient greek ones were conical,from different material too.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Man_pilos_Louvre_MNE1330.jpg/220px-Man_pilos_Louvre_MNE1330.jpg


https://youtu.be/02Sb9UKWVqg?t=47

[Kelmendasi]

No I don't think that Serbs are ancient people of the Balkans. I just didn't see much of those ancient elements in your culture. I asked few times but got poor answers.
We do have quite a lot of ancient or old elements in our culture if you begin to look into it. Our clothing has a lot of old elements in it as well as some traditions such as the summer festival. Was my previous answer poor :icon_cry:...

[Kelmendasi]

But your hat is muslim in origin,all muslim countries have it.The ancient greek ones were conical,from different material too.

[IM]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Man_pilos_Louvre_MNE1330.jpg/220px-Man_pilos_Louvre_MNE1330.jpg[/IMG]

[vido=youtube_share;02Sb9UKWVqg]https://youtu.be/02Sb9UKWVqg?t=47[/video]
It's really not, the muslim hat is completely different, even this video shows that. Now you're just trying to make petty connections.

[Wrong]

But your hat is muslim in origin,all muslim countries have it.The ancient greek ones were conical,from different material too.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Man_pilos_Louvre_MNE1330.jpg/220px-Man_pilos_Louvre_MNE1330.jpg


https://youtu.be/02Sb9UKWVqg?t=47
The plis is not the same shape, nor the same concept as it's not worn as lowly as the Muslim hats. Ancient Greeks used plis(pilaeus).

[IncelSlayer]

It's really not, the muslim hat is completely different. Now you're just trying to make petty connections.

How are they completely different when they look identical?

[Jackson78]

What is Celtic haplogroup? R1b?

R1b and G2a-L497 mix i think.

[Shqipez]

But your hat is muslim in origin,all muslim countries have it.The ancient greek ones were conical,from different material too.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Man_pilos_Louvre_MNE1330.jpg/220px-Man_pilos_Louvre_MNE1330.jpg


https://youtu.be/02Sb9UKWVqg?t=47

The plis isn't Muslim in origin... the Muslim one is a totally different. Albanians don't use it.

[IncelSlayer]

The plis is not the same shape, nor the same concept as it's not worn as lowly as the Muslim hats. Ancient Greeks used plis(pilaeus).

Muslims wear it both high and lowly.Good cope.Ancient greek plis was conical and long.

https://zeus10.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/odysseus.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/D_9uS7lCXW4/hqdefault.jpg

[Kelmendasi]

How are they completely different when they look identical?
They don't though, the muslim cap has shapes on it whilst the Plis/Qeleshe doesn't. Plus the Taqiyah isn't a thing that is commonly worn in Albania as well as the fact that old drawings of Albanians during Skanderbegs revolt show the Plis being used

[Kelmendasi]

Muslims wear it both high and lowly.Good cope.Ancient greek plis was conical and long.

[IM]https://zeus10.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/odysseus.jpg[/IMG]

[IG]https://i.ytimg.com/vi/D_9uS7lCXW4/hqdefault.jpg[/IMG]
There are conical shaped Plis, it's not rare.

[Decius]

R1b and G2a-L497 mix i think.

G2a is from neolithic farmers but l497 could have came to balkans with the slavs that got it possibly from Cucuteni–Trypillia culture

[IncelSlayer]

How did Coon know these Illyrian skulls Were Nordic ?
Their pigmentation is not known to us plus he was a nordicist

Might as well been med skulls, no metrical difference

nordid skulls are larger, more angular features as in steep foreheads and rectangular eye sockets, deeper jaws etc.. the burials and DNA of many of these pretty much make it a fact that those people who classified those skulls as nordid were right.

[Kelmendasi]

G2a is from neolithic farmers but l497 could have came to balkans with the slavs that got it possibly from Cucuteni–Trypillia culture
Most say that L497 arrived with Celts though

[IncelSlayer]

Bunch of lies

Your hat is metrically identical to the ones only muslim countries wear.Its not a coincidence.Only the matterials are different, in India they use the same materials as you, in Pakistan or Egypt different material.Its hilarious when I go on youtube and see albanians spamming the comment section with "those are illyrian hats brought in Persia and India by alexander soldiers"

[Decius]

Most say that L497 arrived with Celts though

It could have arrived with the slavs though that got it from Cucuteni–Trypillians. it would actually make sense because i think l497 was present in Cucuteni–Trypillians and also L497 is more common in south slavic countries then albania and greece

[IncelSlayer]

There are conical shaped Plis, it's not rare.

The stereotypical albanian hat is like this, identical with the muslim one.

https://prishtinainsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/pleqt-plisi-1.png

[Kelmendasi]

Your hat is metrically identical to the ones only muslim countries wear.Its not a coincidence.Only the matterials are different, in India they use the same materials as you, in Pakistan or Egypt different material.Its hilarious when I go on youtube and see albanians spamming the comment section with "those are illyrian hats brought in Persia and India by alexander soldiers"
It's really not though, give it up man and stop acting like some kid. If it was the same as the Taqiyah then that would've been noted by everyone who studies these types of things but it isn't https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qeleshe, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyah_(cap). You aren't an expert in Albanian culture and certainly don't know better than us on the topic.

[Wrong]

The stereotypical albanian hat is like this, identical with the muslim one.

https://prishtinainsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/pleqt-plisi-1.png
Nothing to do with the Muslim cap, Albanian plis is worn much higher, like the Ancient Greek hats.

[Jackson78]

G2a is from neolithic farmers but l497 could have came to balkans with the slavs that got it possibly from Cucuteni–Trypillia culture

There is no connection between L497 and Slavs.

[Kelmendasi]

The stereotypical albanian hat is like this, identical with the muslim one.

[IG]https://prishtinainsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/pleqt-plisi-1.png[/IMG]
Man you're being petty now. The Taqiyah isn't part of the Albanian traditional clothing and it certainly isn't the same as the Plis. Even Christian Albanians wear it so it isn't a Muslim thing.

[IncelSlayer]

The Ilyrians as a population formed in the Balkans and not in Hallstatt. The ones in Hallstatt were proto Ilyrians. They mixed with natives in the Balkans and that's how we got our genetics. The result of such a mixture.

None of the samples were found in Albania, they were found in Croatia. Far away from large brachiness. Many skulls there were doli. These things can change from mixing etc.

The j2b2 sample is late bronze age , few hundred years after colonisation. Bronze Age were Indo Europeans.

All those graves digged up and you're trying to argue none of them had anything to do with any native Balkanites.

Nope. He never said that. Dinaricisation occurs anywhere in the world. It's a hybrid type.

Lmaoo illyrians did not form in the balkans , illyrian was both a term used by the greeks to describe ALL the tribes around the eastern part of the adriatic sea and on the same time it was used to describe some cultures that emerged from the Halstatt ones in central europe and near by.And there were found samples in Albania.

[Decius]

There is no connection between L497 and Slavs.

there could be think about it

1. L497 I think was present in Cucuteni–Trypillia culture
2. Cucuteni–Trypillia culture had a strong presence in ukraine
3. We have more L497 then albos and greeks

It could have just came with slavs

[IncelSlayer]

It's really not though, give it up man and stop acting like some kid. If it was the same as the Taqiyah then that would've been noted by everyone who studies these types of things but it isn't https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qeleshe, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyah_(cap). You aren't an expert in Albanian culture and certainly don't know better than us on the topic.

https://prishtinainsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/pleqt-plisi-1.png

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TUWSGAW3wWI/TmgINEC8D7I/AAAAAAAAIFo/1BR9gRdro5I/s1600/75763346_L65XloAU_ab32.jpg

http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/39500000/Qeleshe-Plis-3-Albanian-boys-in-traditional-hat-albanian-vintage-photography-39599220-500-328.jpg

http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/65/AlbanesesArmados1906--neareastpresents00lequuoft.png

https://photos.smugmug.com/Asia/Bangladesh/Bangladesh-Village-Home-Stay/i-SBm7DV3/0/1d352d16/M/5904886007_c0508a2547_o-M.jpg

[IncelSlayer]

All those graves digged up and you're trying to argue none of them had anything to do with any native Balkanites.

Nope. He never said that. Dinaricisation occurs anywhere in the world. It's a hybrid type.

Dinaricization came during Bronze Age with Bell Beakers r1b-l23 and other PIE people lmaoo read Coon 100 years ago who measured skulls without any ydna idea.
http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-brachycephalic-problematic.html
https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/bTMmP-TrWpQFMlP2yJONu1IOKC0fwGTxrT6SCXmVB9M/https/media.discordapp.net/attachments/315711208462221313/490230620245590017/aa95cca802027189b5957fe9d5d251ea60f9a9b2e189d62fcc eee161ec68896a_1.png

[Shqipez]

The stereotypical albanian hat is like this, identical with the muslim one.

https://prishtinainsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/pleqt-plisi-1.png

It's a plis same as the ancient one.. even the name plis = pileus but we also say qeleshe

[IncelSlayer]

It's a plis same as the ancient one.. even the name plis = pileus but we also say qeleshe

Identical with the ancient greek one

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/77/c3/30/77c33021cf867c3a124dec291c2c019b.jpg


https://youtu.be/02Sb9UKWVqg?t=56

https://prishtinainsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/pleqt-plisi-1.png

[Kelmendasi]

[IM]https://prishtinainsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/pleqt-plisi-1.png[/IMG]

[MG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TUWSGAW3wWI/TmgINEC8D7I/AAAAAAAAIFo/1BR9gRdro5I/s1600/75763346_L65XloAU_ab32.jpg[/IMG]

[IG]http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/39500000/Qeleshe-Plis-3-Albanian-boys-in-traditional-hat-albanian-vintage-photography-39599220-500-328.jpg[/IMG]

[IM]http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/65/AlbanesesArmados1906--neareastpresents00lequuoft.png[/IMG]

[IG]https://photos.smugmug.com/Asia/Bangladesh/Bangladesh-Village-Home-Stay/i-SBm7DV3/0/1d352d16/M/5904886007_c0508a2547_o-M.jpg[/IMG]
Your very examples prove what I am saying. As you should be able to see the cap the Indians(or Pakistanis idk) are wearing have some shapes designed on them and are tight on the head, this is the Taqiyah. Whilst the Albanian one doesn't have symbols and isn't tight in fact it just sits on your head. Anyways man, believe what you want because it's clear that you won't change your opinion lol

[IncelSlayer]

Your very examples prove what I am saying.

Who said anything about symbols?Symbols and materials vary, but the shape is the same.They look identical to any sane eye.

[Kelmendasi]

Who said anything about symbols?Symbols and materials vary, but the shape is the same.They look identical to any sane eye.
K

[Shqipez]

Dinaricization came during Bronze Age with Bell Beakers r1b-l23 and other PIE people lmaoo read Coon 100 years ago who measured skulls without any ydna idea.
http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-brachycephalic-problematic.html
https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/bTMmP-TrWpQFMlP2yJONu1IOKC0fwGTxrT6SCXmVB9M/https/media.discordapp.net/attachments/315711208462221313/490230620245590017/aa95cca802027189b5957fe9d5d251ea60f9a9b2e189d62fcc eee161ec68896a_1.png


Nope. Dinaricisation occurs anywhere in the world and cannot be attributed to a single population or culture. Bell Beakers formed in central Europe.


Dinarics are hybrids.


I don't give a fuck about the proto Ilyrians neither the ones in Bosnia or Croatia. We are largely descendants of Ilyrians that lived in Kosovo, Macedonia, and Albania until the Slavs swarmed the area but I don't expect you to know anything about history.

Some Ilyrians from the North possibly retreated South and into North Albania. So who gives a fuck if we are brachy or not. Most skulls found in Albania etc were brachy or meso.

This shows also we are descendants of the IE by YDNA, they reached Albania etc where they mixed with natives. Which makes us the way we are.

[Shqipez]

Identical with the ancient greek one

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/77/c3/30/77c33021cf867c3a124dc019b.jpg


https://youtu.be/02Sb9Ug?t=56

https://prishtinainsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/pleqt-plisi-1.png

Try again.





Thepileus(Greek:πῖλος–pilos, also pilleus or pilleumin Latin), and kësulë, qeleshe or plis (Albanian:"from-cotton") was a brimless,feltcap worn in Ancient Greece[1]and surrounding regions, later also introduced inAncient Rome. The Greekπιλίδιον(pilidion) and Latin pilleolus were smaller versions, similar to a skullcap.

The pileus (plis in Albanian), is very common in Albania and Kosovo even today.





https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pileus_(hat)

[IncelSlayer]

Try again.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pileus_(hat)

Try what?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/77/c3/30/77c33021cf867c3a124dec291c2c019b.jpg

https://zeus10.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/odysseus.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/D_9uS7lCXW4/hqdefault.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Man_pilos_Louvre_MNE1330.jpg/220px-Man_pilos_Louvre_MNE1330.jpg

Meanwhile albanian and muslim ones

http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/65/AlbanesesArmados1906--neareastpresents00lequuoft.png

Only the material is different.In India&Azeri they are identical.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Asia/Bangladesh/Bangladesh-Village-Home-Stay/i-SBm7DV3/0/1d352d16/M/5904886007_c0508a2547_o-M.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02Sb9UKWVqg

[IncelSlayer]

Nope. Dinaricisation occurs anywhere in the world and cannot be attributed to a single population or culture. Bell Beakers formed in central Europe.


Dinarics are hybrids.


I don't give a fuck about the proto Ilyrians neither the ones in Bosnia or Croatia. We are largely descendants of Ilyrians that lived in Kosovo, Macedonia, and Albania until the Slavs swarmed the area but I don't expect you to know anything about history.

Some Ilyrians from the North possibly retreated South and into North Albania. So who gives a fuck if we are brachy or not. Most skulls found in Albania etc were brachy or meso.

This shows also we are descendants of the IE by YDNA, they reached Albania etc where they mixed with natives. Which makes us the way we are.

We all know it came with PIE like Bell Beakers and other R1B-L23 people in large majority.
Read Coon 100 years ago before we knew what R1B is.


..This is the first occurrence of crania of this type in the Dinaric Alpine region in any considerable numbers. We have already seen, however, that this same type had entered these mountains by the beginning of the Bronze Age, in connection with the eastward movement of the Bell Beaker peoples. The round-heads at Glasinac and in Carniola may have been the descendants of these Bell Beaker refugees...
..These include both planoccipital crania of the original Bell Beaker type, and a curvoccipital brachycephalic type which shows a Borreby relationship. It would appear, then, that in southwestern Germany, Hallstatt Nordics had invaded the region and had mixed with the Bell Beaker Dinarics and the old Borreby sub-stratum...
Metrically, these brachycephalic crania resemble the Bronze Age series from Cyprus, but are, on the whole, a little larger. They fall, as a matter of fact, into an intermediate position between the Cyprus series and the Bell Beaker group from the upper Rhineland, but in morphology are identical with both. There is no doubt that we are dealing in this instance with a form of Dinaric which anticipates the modern population of Bosnia...
https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-VI2.htm

Also, stop talking about illyrians as if they were a single entity or that balkans was swarthy 100 CI armenoids like you before slavs arrival, your ancestors were never recorded in antiquity, thracians who were the largest tribe were always historically described as light people.

[Tschaikisten]

It could have arrived with the slavs though that got it from Cucuteni–Trypillians. it would actually make sense because i think l497 was present in Cucuteni–Trypillians and also L497 is more common in south slavic countries then albania and greece
L497 is and old European marker which was been on of main Y-DNA branches among Southern, Central and Western Europe Neolithic farmers, before IE’s arrived from steppe. Our branch (YSC33>Y60799) is especially connected with Alpine area. We can call it Southern Slavic or Serbian but in case of modern carriers.

[Wrong]

Ancient Balkans was a R1b-L23 zone, which spread the Albanian & Greek IE languages. Proto-Thracian(and Dacian) is included aswell.

https://i.imgur.com/HFyFvl2.jpg

[Coolguy1]

Ancient Balkans was a R1b-L23 zone, which spread the Albanian & Greek IE languages

https://i.imgur.com/HFyFvl2.jpg

It seems to have spread into Greece and Albania from north Bulgarian/Romania. Western Europeans derive their ancestry from another steppe group, Corded Ware?

[Wrong]

It seems to have spread into Greece and Albania from north Bulgarian/Romania. Western Europeans derive their ancestry from another steppe group, Corded Ware?
R1b-L23 diverged into younger branches found in Italy and Central/Western/North Europe.

[Coolguy1]

R1b-L23 diverged into younger branches found in Italy and Central/Western/North Europe.

Oh I did not know this. So Greeks and Albanians have an older clade it seems.

[Wrong]

Oh I did not know this. So Greeks and Albanians have an older clade it seems.
Korrekt.

[Wrong]

Because you called J2b illyrian, a thing I have disproved countless times, not only me but also anthropologists.
It is Illyrian. Romans even stationed Illyrian soldiers to protect the border towards Gaul, where J2b2 is elevated in NW Italy.

http://i64.tinypic.com/4fv0ar.jpg

[IncelSlayer]

Nope read again, says nothing about Dinarics in Albania being descendants of Belll Beakers. He's talking about some in Glasinac as refugees, there were probably Dinarics in the Balkans before these. Neither is he saying every Dinaric is from Bell Beakers. He specifically mentions in other parts that it's a hybrid and can occur anywhere.

He's also mentioning how Hallstatt Nordics mixed with Bell Beakers in Central Europe, I guess you forgot that part. Which means the IE or proto Ilyrians picked up such elements.

R1b l23 was found in Yamnaya , if the Bell Beakers were l23 they most likely picked it up from mixing with IE.

Z2103 never was found at any Bell Beakers, at least not in large parts. It's also from Yamnaya and was found in Croatia

Neither z2103 nor j2b2 l283 are related to the Bell Beakers. Even then the IlyRIANS mixed with the Bell Beakers most likely in central Europe.

Bell Beakers were dominated by r1b-l23, and they come from Yamnaya culture, same as your r1b z2103, they are brothers, however this ydna is ancestraly from Armenia as thats were its basal clade is, the PIE yamnayas picked it up and spread it in Europe together with flat head bracycephaly.
https://indo-european.eu/2018/02/olalde-et-al-and-mathieson-et-al-nature-2018-r1b-l23-dominates-bell-beaker-r1a-m417-resurges-only-during-the-bronze-age/

And Bell Beaker is not just a culture, but also a phenotype which is the ancestor of Dinarids, Armenoids and other flat heads in Europe, according to Coon who examined both albanians and these skulls, they are identical.It was Bell Beakers who introduced the "dinariciziation" in Europe according to modern studies centuries before any ydna study.And Coon did not have to explicitly state that all dinarics come from Bell Beakers, he stated tho that those Bell Beakers skulls are identical to them and precede dinarids and thats enough, and i never denied its a process, which most likely occured first among west asian r1b-l23 armenoids and spread throughout Europe then.

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-brachycephalic-problematic.html
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262962852_When_Beakers_Met_Bell_Beakers_An_analysi s_of_dental_remains

[IncelSlayer]

It is Illyrian. Romans even stationed Illyrian soldiers to protect the border towards Gaul, where J2b2 is elevated in NW Italy.

http://i64.tinypic.com/4fv0ar.jpg

No , it is not illyrian.Illyrians were Corded Nordoids from Steppe, your ancestors were simply flat headed balkanites that were conquered by illyrians.

[Wrong]

No , it is not illyrian.Illyrians were Corded Nordoids from Steppe, your ancestors were simply flat headed balkanites that were conquered by illyrians.
R1b-L23 was the source of these Corded, R1a never dominated this area back then.

https://i.imgur.com/HFyFvl2.jpg

[Shqipez]

No , it is not illyrian.Illyrians were Corded Nordoids from Steppe, your ancestors were simply flat headed balkanites that were conquered by illyrians.

Yes. It is an Ilyrian. A proto Ilyrian that colonised the Balkans and brought that Ydna. Racial characteristics could of changed from mixing with other people , autosomal etc but the Ydna was retained obviously. Ev13 is most likely Neolithic. We are obviously Ilyrians native to Kosovo, Albania etc. This is what matters.

[Wrong]

Are albanians the most indoeruean nation in balkan area?
In direct paternal lines, most of our lineages are IE.

[Shqipez]

Are albanians the most indoeruean nation in balkan area?

Out of all native Balkanites, Ghegs are the most Steppe shifted. But Slavs are more.

[IncelSlayer]

R1b-L23 was the source of these Corded, R1a never dominated this area back then.

https://i.imgur.com/HFyFvl2.jpg

The corded nordoids were a tall, leptomorphic, dolichocephalic, long-faced and high-headed type while the specific cranial morphology of Bell Beaker individuals forms the basis for this: a brachycephalic skull with flattened occipital.

[Livin]

In direct paternal lines, most of our lineages are IE.

And greeks the most neolithics right?

[Wrong]

And greeks the most neolithics right?
Georgians, G2a like Ötzi

[Shqipez]

R1b-L23 was the source of these Corded, R1a never dominated this area back then.

https://i.imgur.com/HFyFvl2.jpg

The one found in the Balkans was not even l23 , it was z2103 which is also IE and not bell Beakers, same for j2b2... the j2b2 was a late bronze age.. bell beaker were not wven late bronze age... this dude is an idiot

L23 dominated Yamnaya

https://indo-european.eu/2018/06/yamna-afanasevo-elite-males-dominated-by-r1b-l23-okunevo-brings-ancient-siberian-asian-population/

[IncelSlayer]

In direct paternal lines, most of our lineages are IE.

nop, you are avoiding the questions, albanians are at the bottom of IE/Steppe mixture in europe and r1b-l23 is yamnayas hence PIE, EV13 is neolitic and j2b2 most likely PIE.

[Livin]

Georgians, G2a like Ötzi

Ye i know about georgians i mean in balkan region.

I think greeks are the most neolithic or not?

[Wrong]

The one found in the Balkans was not even l23 , it was z2103 which is also IE and not bell Beakers, same for j2b2... the j2b2 was a late bronze age.. bell beaker were not wven late bronze age... this dude is an idiot

L23 dominated Yamnaya

[URL="https://indo-european.eu/2018/06/yamna-afanasevo-elite-males-dominated-by-r1b-l23-okunevo-brings-ancient-siberian-asian-population/"yamna-afanasevo-elite-males-dominated-by-r1b-l23-/[/URL]
z2103 is within the L23 cluster. And indeed, nothing to do with Bell Beakers.

[Voskos]

R1b L23 is a Yamna marker. It is responsible for squareheads in North Turkey, North Greece, Italy and Albania.

[IncelSlayer]

The one found in the Balkans was not even l23 , it was z2103 which is also IE and not bell Beakers, same for j2b2... the j2b2 was a late bronze age.. bell beaker were not wven late bronze age... this dude is an idiot

L23 dominated Yamnaya

https://indo-european.eu/2018/06/yamna-afanasevo-elite-males-dominated-by-r1b-l23-okunevo-brings-ancient-siberian-asian-population/

why are you spreading lies?And your buddy Wrong thumbs up this garbage post and later you cry why i thumb you down.
Z2103 is under r1b-l23 and its not IE but PIE yamnayan.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2103/

[Shqipez]

why are you spreading lies?And your buddy Wrong thumbs up this garbage post and later you cry why i thumb you down.
Z2103 is under r1b-l23 and its not IE but PIE yamnayan.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2103/

There is no reason to thumbs down because somebody thumbs up , does it hurt your soul...? What do you define as a trash post ? Something that does not suit your agenda ? , IE practically carried same haplogroups as PIE until they mixed or developed new clades etc.. I know z2103 is under l23 but it's still not the same.

[IncelSlayer]

2 minutes ago you didn't know z2103 is under l23.
And it was not IE that mixed but PIE(genetically half EHG- half CHG).
you are already NW4, thats why you went vegan.Not even finasteride can save you now.

[Kelmendasi]

In my opinion the Bell Beaker input in Albanians that is being purposed by certain members is just wishful thinking. Albanians today don't have much or hardly any Bell Beaker admix or admix that you could say came from the Bell Beakers, that type of admix is dominant in NW Europeans. The Steppe in Albanians comes from Yamna derived or Yamna related cultures such as Vucedol, as suggested by the BY611 in Albanians which stems from Z2103 that was carried by the majority of Yamna men and was found in Vucedol as well as the Steppe admix in Albanians being more akin to that of the Yamna. If the R1b was from Bell Beakers then it wouldn't be Z2103 or BY611. As for J2b2-L283, in my opinion it probably came from Proto-Illyrians or Indo-Europeans in general into the Balkans. I think the late Bronze Age sample backs this up as it carries a good amount of steppe admix as well as a steppe-related mtDNA. Also another J2b2-L283 sample which iirc was either from Anatolia or Armenia also had a large amount of steppe admix. And J2b* has been found in the northern Caucasus. I know that some people here may be against what i'm saying, but this is just my opinion

[IncelSlayer]

In my opinion the Bell Beaker input in Albanians that is being purposed by certain members is just wishful thinking. Albanians today don't have much or hardly any Bell Beaker admix or admix that you could say came from the Bell Beakers, that type of admix is dominant in NW Europeans. The Steppe in Albanians comes from Yamna derived or Yamna related cultures such as Vucedol, as suggested by the BY611 in Albanians which stems from Z2103 that was carried by the majority of Yamna men and was found in Vucedol as well as the Steppe admix in Albanians being more akin to that of the Yamna. If the R1b was from Bell Beakers then it wouldn't be Z2103 or BY611. As for J2b2-L283, in my opinion it probably came from Proto-Illyrians or Indo-Europeans in general into the Balkans. I think the late Bronze Age sample backs this up as it carries a good amount of steppe admix as well as a steppe-related mtDNA. Also another J2b2-L283 sample which iirc was either from Anatolia or Armenia also had a large amount of steppe admix. And J2b* has been found in the northern Caucasus. I know that some people here may be against what i'm saying, but this is just my opinion

No one said you have it straight from Bell Beakers, but its known both Bell Beakers and z2103 came from yamnayas who overwhelgly were r1b-l23 its parent clade and Coon realised before every ydna was known that both Bell Beakers were brachy flat head people and in Albania the same type was dominant.

[Shqipez]

In my opinion the Bell Beaker input in Albanians that is being purposed by certain members is just wishful thinking. Albanians today don't have much or hardly any Bell Beaker admix or admix that you could say came from the Bell Beakers, that type of admix is dominant in NW Europeans. The Steppe in Albanians comes from Yamna derived or Yamna related cultures such as Vucedol, as suggested by the BY611 in Albanians which stems from Z2103 that was carried by the majority of Yamna men and was found in Vucedol as well as the Steppe admix in Albanians being more akin to that of the Yamna. If the R1b was from Bell Beakers then it wouldn't be Z2103 or BY611. As for J2b2-L283, in my opinion it probably came from Proto-Illyrians or Indo-Europeans in general into the Balkans. I think the late Bronze Age sample backs this up as it carries a good amount of steppe admix as well as a steppe-related mtDNA. Also another J2b2-L283 sample which iirc was either from Anatolia or Armenia also had a large amount of steppe admix. And J2b* has been found in the northern Caucasus. I know that some people here may be against what i'm saying, but this is just my opinion

Yeah , I don't recall getting any Bell Beaker on those geneplaza autosomal tests .. it peaks in central and West euros where the culture formed.