R1b-L23 expansion was associated with Proto-Indo-Europeans

[Shqipez]

https://indo-european.eu/haplogroup-is-not-language-but-r1b-l23-expansion-was-associated-with-proto-indo-europeans/

[Ülev]

Error establishing a database connection

[Shqipez]

Error establishing a database connection

Hmmmm... works for me.

[Shqipez]

Haak et al. (2015)tested six Y-DNA samples from the eastern reaches of Yamna culture, in the Volga-Ural region, and all of them turned out to belong to haplogroup R1b. Four of them were positive for the Z2103 mutation. IN all likelihood, R1b-Z2103 was a major lineage of the Poltavka culture, which succeeded to the Yamna culture between the Volga River and the Ural mountains. It eventually merged with the Abashevo culture (presumably belonging chiefly to R1a-Z93) to form the Sintashta culture. Through a founder effect or through political domination, R1a-Z93 lineages would have outnumbered R1b-Z2103 after the expansion to Central and South Asia, although important pockets of Z2103 survived, notably in Bashkorostan, Turkmenistan and Uyghurstan (Chinese Turkestan).

R1b-Z2103 would have become an Indo-Iranian lineage like R1a-Z93. This is true of two Z2103 subclades in particular: L277.1 and L584. The former is found in Russia to Central Asia then to India and the Middle East, just like the R1a-L657 subclade of Z93. It can be associated with theAndronovo cultureandBactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex, as well as the Indo-Aryan migrations. R1b-L584 is found especially in Iran, northern Iraq, the South Caucasus and Turkey, and correlates more with the Iranian branch of Indo-Europeans, which includes Persians, Kurds and Scythians.












TheHittites(c. 2000-1178 BCE) were the first Indo-Europeans to defy (and defeat) the mighty Mesopotamian and Egyptian empires. There are two hypotheses regarding the origins of the Hittites. The first is that they came from the eastern Balkans and invaded Anatolia by crossing the Bosphorus. That would mean that they belonged either to the L23* or the Z2103 subclade. The other plausible scenario is that they were an offshoot of the late Maykop culture, and that they crossed the Caucasus to conquer the Hattian kingdom (perhaps after being displaced from the North Caucasus by the R1a people of the Catacomb culture). In that case the Hittites might have belonged to the R1b-Z2103 or the R1b-PF7562 subclade. The first hypothesis has the advantage of having a single nucleus, the Balkans, as the post-Yamna expansion of all Indo-European R1b. The Maykop hypothesis, on the other hand, would explain why the Anatolian branch of IE languages (Hittite, Luwian, Lydian, Palaic) is so archaic compared to other Indo-European languages, which would have originated in Yamna rather than Maykop.

There is substantial archaeological and linguistic evidence thatTroywas an Indo-European city associated with the Steppe culture and haplogroup R1b. The Trojans were Luwian speakers related to the Hittites (hence Indo-European), with attested cultural ties to the culture of the Pontic-Caspian Steppe. The first city of Troy dates back to 3000 BCE, right in the middle of the Maykop period. Troy might have been founded by Maykop people as a colony securing the trade routes between the Black Sea and the Aegean. The founding of Troy happens to coincide exactly with the time the first galleys were made. Considering the early foundation of Troy, the most likely of the two Indo-European paternal haplogroups would be R1b-M269 or L23.

ThePhrygiansand theProto-Armeniansare two other Indo-European tribes stemming from the Balkans. Both appear to have migrated to Anatolia around 1200 BCE, during the 'great upheavals' of the Eastern Mediterranean (see below). The Phrygians (or Bryges) founded a kingdom (1200-700 BCE) in west central Anatolia, taking over most of the crumbling Hittite Empire. The Armenians crossed all Anatolia until Lake Van and settled in the Armenian Highlands. Nowadays 30% of Armenian belong to haplogroup R1b, the vast majority to the L584 subclade of Z2103 (=> seeThe Indo-European migrations to Armenia).

Most of the R1b found in Greece today is of the Balkanic Z2103 variety. There is also a minority of Proto-Celtic S116/P312 and of Italic/Alpine Celtic S28/U152. Z2103 could have descended from Albania or Macedonia during theDorian invasion(see below), thought to have happened in the 12th century BCE. Their language appear to have been close enough to Mycenaean Greek to be mutually intelligible and easy for locals to adopt. The Mycenaeans might have brought some R1b (probably also Z2103) to Greece, but their origins can be traced back through archaeology to theCatacomb cultureand theSeima-Turbino phenomenonof the northern forest-steppe, which would make them primarily an R1a tribe.






https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#Greco-Anatolian

[IncelSlayer]

r1b-l23 is associated with Proto-Indo-Europeans, specifically the Bell Beaker types(flat heads, brachy, globular dinarics).
No one cares, these people are a very small minority nowadays, only exists in Albania, some in Western Transilvany, Basques and a little in Greece, and are associated with mountainous areas, these people have done nothing in history.

[Shqipez]

Nope. Bell Beakers were not proto Indo Europeans. Bell Beakers started in western and Central Europe.

R1b l23 came from Steppes with Indo Europeans

https://d8v5jhqx5tv4l.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/indo-european-uralic-chalcolithic.jpg

[IncelSlayer]

Nope. Bell Beakers were not proto Indo Europeans. Bell Beakers started in western and Central Europe.

R1b l23 came from Steppes with Indo Europeans

https://d8v5jhqx5tv4l.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/indo-european-uralic-chalcolithic.jpg

https://indo-european.eu/2018/02/olalde-et-al-and-mathieson-et-al-nature-2018-r1b-l23-dominates-bell-beaker-r1a-m417-resurges-only-during-the-bronze-age/
Lmaoo, its pretty much confirmed Bell Beakers were R1B-L23, even your map shows so,also its highest diversity is in Armenia as it is even today but these people have done nothing in history, went completely unnoticed in their small numbers in the mountain regions so it's not even worth talking about them or putting them in the same context with antiquity populations.
Enjoy your armenoid,basque heritage.

[Shqipez]

https://indo-european.eu/2018/02/olalde-et-al-and-mathieson-et-al-nature-2018-r1b-l23-dominates-bell-beaker-r1a-m417-resurges-only-during-the-bronze-age/
Lmaoo, its pretty much confirmed Bell Beakers were R1B-L23, even your map shows so,also its highest diversity is in Armenia as it is even today but these people have done nothing in history, went completely unnoticed in their small numbers in the mountain regions so it's not even worth talking about them or putting them in the same context with antiquity populations.
Enjoy your armenoid,basque heritage.

Bell Beakers most likely picked it up as they were some type of successors. My map shows R1b l23 came from the steppes with IE.

Armenians most likely migrated into the Balkans, to Anatolia and from there into Armenia with IE expansion. The expansion of l23 is clearly associated with IE and with IE speakers.

[Wrong]

Armenia was full of Armenoid J2a1 before the Indo-European R1b-L23 expansion in there from the north/west.

Google: Kura-Araxes

The Kura Araxes culture was from 3400-2000 BC, looking at Yfull and noticing several bottlenecks, certain lineages seem to expand during the Kura Araxes expansion, the majority are J2a, followed by J1, G and T.


The Ancient R1b-L23 fresh IE invader found in Armenia was very northern and polar opposite of modern Armenians in terms of admixture. The more numerous, native Armenoid Kura-Araxes population was J2a1 which had the biggest influence in their genetics, rather than these R1b-L23 elite IE invaders, who only left their yDNA.

[IncelSlayer]

Armenia was full of Armenoid J2a1 before the Indo-European R1b-L23 expansion in there from the north/west.

Google: Kura-Araxes

The Kura Araxes culture was from 3400-2000 BC, looking at Yfull and noticing several bottlenecks, certain lineages seem to expand during the Kura Araxes expansion, the majority are J2a, followed by J1, G and T.


The Ancient R1b-L23 fresh IE invader found in Armenia was very northern and polar opposite of modern Armenians in terms of admixture. The more numerous, native Armenoid Kura-Araxes population was J2a1 which had the biggest influence in their genetics, rather than these R1b-L23 elite IE invaders, who only left their yDNA.

Thats from eupedia bullshit, j2a1 in Caucasus has 0 variations, its an inbred subclade that was confirmed to have come 3-4k years ago from East Med region.Highest J2a variations are in Greece and Iran.Had j2a existed in Caucasus 3-4 years ago ,it would have expanded not only with neolithic farmers but also with Bell Beakers, clearly not the case.
The oldest ydna in caucasus is more than likely R1b-l23, the basal was found close in (R1b1a1a2a-L23* (L51- Z2105-) in Erzurum from the Balanovsky​ et al. (2017) study)
L23 came from M269 males from the Shulaveri Shomu Culture, in Armenia and Georgia https://indo-european.eu/2018/02/olalde-et-al-and-mathieson-et-al-nature-2018-r1b-l23-dominates-bell-beaker-r1a-m417-resurges-only-during-the-bronze-age/

about Kura-axes we have archaeological proof to which ydna they might have belonged, samples found were G2b and J1 as expected.


The expansion of Y-DNA subclade R-Z93 (R1a1a1b2), according to Mascarenhas et al. (2015), is compatible with "the archeological records of eastward expansion of West Asian populations in the 4th millennium BCE, culminating in the socalled Kura-Araxes migrations in the post-Uruk IV period."[38] According to Pamjav et al. (2012), "Inner and Central Asia is an overlap zone" for the R -Z280 and R -Z93 lineages, implying that an "early differentiation zone" of R-M198 "conceivably occurred somewhere within the Eurasian Steppes or the Middle East and Caucasus region as they lie between South Asia and Eastern Europe". [39] According to Underhill et al. (2014/2015), R1a1a1, the most frequent subclade of R1a, split into R-Z282 (Europe) and R-Z93 (Asia) at circa 5,800 before present,[40] in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey. According to Underhill et al. (2014/2015), "[t]his suggests the possibility that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages."[41]

[Wrong]

Ancient Bronze Age invader of Armenia:

RISE416

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 41.65
2 West_Asian 25.79
3 West_Med 23.68
4 East_Med 8.88
5 Baltic 0.01


Completely different from modern Armenians

[Teucer]

Ancient Bronze Age invader of Armenia:

RISE416

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 41.65
2 West_Asian 25.79
3 West_Med 23.68
4 East_Med 8.88
5 Baltic 0.01


Completely different from modern Armenians

Is there a modern equivalent? If any, which population do you think resemble these results the most?

[IncelSlayer]

Ancient Bronze Age invader of Armenia:

RISE416

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 41.65
2 West_Asian 25.79
3 West_Med 23.68
4 East_Med 8.88
5 Baltic 0.01


Completely different from modern Armenians

Bell Beakers, who were anthropologically armenoid, were r1b-l23 almost entirely https://indo-european.eu/2018/02/olalde-et-al-and-mathieson-et-al-nature-2018-r1b-l23-dominates-bell-beaker-r1a-m417-resurges-only-during-the-bronze-age/
Most common ydna in armenians is still r1b-l23, the same.End of deal.
(R1b1a1a2a-L23* (L51- Z2105-) in Erzurum from the Balanovsky​ et al. (2017) study), found in a original armenian city.

[Kelmendasi]

r1b-l23 is associated with Proto-Indo-Europeans, specifically the Bell Beaker types(flat heads, brachy, globular dinarics).
No one cares, these people are a very small minority nowadays, only exists in Albania, some in Western Transilvany, Basques and a little in Greece, and are associated with mountainous areas, these people have done nothing in history.
L23 itself isn't found in high percentages in Albanians, it's the BY611 downstream which comes from Z2103, although Z2103 is a downstream from L23 but yet again all major R1b clades are such as P312.

[Wrong]

Bell Beakers, who were anthropologically armenoid, were r1b-l23 almost entirely https://indo-european.eu/2018/02/olalde-et-al-and-mathieson-et-al-nature-2018-r1b-l23-dominates-bell-beaker-r1a-m417-resurges-only-during-the-bronze-age/
Most common ydna in armenians is still r1b-l23, the same.End of deal.
(R1b1a1a2a-L23* (L51- Z2105-) in Erzurum from the Balanovsky​ et al. (2017) study), found in a original armenian city.
That's from the IE R1b-L23 elite mixing with overwhelming amount of Kura-Araxes women, through time creating modern-day Armenians. In the Balkans it was the same thing, R1b-L23 Indo-Europeans blending into the native population.

Remember, J2a1 is still very prevalent in Armenia. It was there the haplogroup started.
Most J2 exploded from Eastern Anatolia & Western Iran, it's difficult to ignore.

The Minoan -> Greek J2a1 sprung from the collapsed Kura-Araxes culture, which spread into the rest of Anatolia, followed by Crete & Cyprus.

[IncelSlayer]

L23 itself isn't found in high percentages in Albanians, it's the BY611 downstream which comes from Z2103, although Z2103 is a downstream from L23 but yet again all major R1b clades are such as P312.

L23* is in armenians and found in prehistoric armenian city, it means that the stereotypical L23 individual was armenoid looking, as was proven by the 2018 study, where bell beakers, were found to be mainly l23.


That's from the IE

Didn't read your fantasy.

[Shqipez]

L23 itself isn't found in high percentages in Albanians, it's the BY611 downstream which comes from Z2103, although Z2103 is a downstream from L23 but yet again all major R1b clades are such as P312.

In the Balkans l23 seems to peak in Albos, Romanians and Greeks still although you are right it isn't the most common type within Albanians themselves , but l23 is technically just ancestral clade if its a downstream to those

It's related to IE expansion into Europe and the Balkans , bell Beakers most likely mixed with IE and picked it up or they were some successor culture or what ever ... while this idiot is trying to argue that the l23 in Europe and the Balkans is from Bell Beakers. You're talking to a dude who has the brain size of a squirrel.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTgmYmjnZfhVQonhRyvfwGxtIxksssAj VBiZ2zZPeQbOHXQt6oJ

[Kelmendasi]

In the Balkans l23 seems to peak in Albos, Romanians and Greeks still although you are right it isn't the most common type within Albanians themselves , but l23 is technically just ancestral clade if its a downstream to those

It's related to IE expansion into Europe and the Balkans , bell Beakers most likely mixed with IE and picked it up or they were some successor culture or what ever ... while this idiot is trying to argue that the l23 in Europe and the Balkans is from Bell Beakers. You're talking to a dude who has the brain size of a squirrel.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTgmYmjnZfhVQonhRyvfwGxtIxksssAj VBiZ2zZPeQbOHXQt6oJ
In my opinion the major clade to come into the Balkans was Z2103 and not basal L23*. Z2103 came with Yamna related or derived cultures, not the Bell Beakers since they didn't really carry much Z2103 but rather L21 and other clades found in western Europe

[Shqipez]

In my opinion the major clade to come into the Balkans was Z2103 and not basal L23*. Z2103 came with Yamna related or derived cultures, not the Bell Beakers since they didn't really carry much Z2103 but rather L21 and other clades found in western Europe

It doesnt really matter. Most l23 in the Balkans is related to IE expansion from the Steppes most certainly , and from the Balkans they moved into Anatolia and into Armenia.

[Shqipez]

Bell Beakers, who were anthropologically armenoid, were r1b-l23 almost entirely https://indo-european.eu/2018/02/olalde-et-al-and-mathieson-et-al-nature-2018-r1b-l23-dominates-bell-beaker-r1a-m417-resurges-only-during-the-bronze-age/
Most common ydna in armenians is still r1b-l23, the same.End of deal.
(R1b1a1a2a-L23* (L51- Z2105-) in Erzurum from the Balanovsky​ et al. (2017) study), found in a original armenian city.

So how come the link works for you? xD

[Shqipez]

Maintenance , you're a good lier. The link works for your friend IncelSlayer and it works for me. If it doesn't work for you there's no need give thumbs down but we know that's not why you did it.

[IncelSlayer]

So how come the link works for you? xD
i don't understand what you mean.
only once it didn't work as i copy pasted it from a post from TA like above and i didn't bother editing because i saw while on the phone.

[FinalFlash]

R1b is the most prevalent haplogroup in Armenia at a 25-30% clip. Some regions reach as high as 40%. J2 and G are the other most prominent haplogroups found in high frequencies.

[Shqipez]

i don't understand what you mean.
only once it didn't work as i copy pasted it from a post from TA like above and i didn't bother editing because i saw while on the phone.

It worked for you , you qouted the same page and same link several times . Nice lies. And you keep abusing thumbs down button. I already told an admin so we will see what happens if you dont stop.

He thumbs down informative threads because he obviously has an anti Albanian agenda and not because of a broken link. No need to abuse thumbs down even then. Make some arguments instead.

[IncelSlayer]

It worked for you , you qouted the same page and same link several times . Nice lies. And you keep abusing thumbs down button. I already told an admin so we will see what happens if you dont stop.

He thumbs down informative threads because he obviously has an anti Albanian agenda and not because of a broken link. No need to abuse thumbs down even then. Make some arguments instead.

how are these posts i thumb you down not off-topic garbage?Your mod buddy Kurgan is thumbing up these garbabe posts.
prove to me one post i thumbed down of yours that wasnt garbage.
And i have no idea what you mean or how is it important , i know one time i clicked and it didn't work as i copy pasted from a post here and i don't remember if i edited it eventually with full link or not.

[Shqipez]

how are these posts i thumb you down not off-topic garbage?Your mod buddy Kurgan is thumbing up these garbabe posts.
prove to me one post i thumbed down of yours that wasnt garbage.
And i have no idea what you mean or how is it important , i know one time i clicked and it didn't work as i copy pasted from a post here and i don't remember if i edited it eventually with full link or not.

What is garbage about it ? And since when do you care about threads off topic... you are going off topic now ..


You bring threads off topic ... if the link doesn't work there's no need to abuse thumbs down button , just address the issue or if you think I'm off topic address it but I'm not ... I'm addressing the issue that he claimed link doesn't work which is related to the thread and you keep thumbing me down ? Your post here is also off topic, should i thumb it down ? , why don't you thumb down your buddy whom is off topic in the other thread ? Instead you give him thumbs up and me down, it's a form of abuse. . You thumbed down even informative posts... such as the OP here

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?259264-J2b2-L283-and-Ilyrian-colonisation-of-the-Balkans

There's no need to thumb down the OP because link doesn't work but thats not his issue. And there's no need for you to abuse the thumbs down button... you qouted me here and now I reply and if I hadn't said it you would probably thumb me down again now... And for what ?

You're abusing the TD button for no reason. I already reported you.

[IncelSlayer]

What is garbage about it ? And since when do you care about threads off topic... you are going off topic now ..


You bring threads off topic ... if the link doesn't work there's no need to abuse thumbs down button , just address the issue or if you think I'm off topic address it but I'm not ... I'm addressing the issue that he claimed link doesn't work which is related to the thread and you keep thumbing me down ? Your post here is also off topic, should i thumb it down ? , why don't you thumb down your buddy whom is off topic in the other thread ? Instead you give him thumbs up and me down, it's a form of abuse. . You thumbed down even informative posts... such as the OP here

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?259264-J2b2-L283-and-Ilyrian-colonisation-of-the-Balkans

There's no need to thumb down the OP because link doesn't work but thats not his issue. And there's no need for you to abuse the thumbs down button... you qouted me here and now I reply and if I hadn't said it you would probably thumb me down again now... And for what ?

You're abusing the TD button for no reason. I already reported you.

I have no idea what you're talking about, you simply messaged me above first telling me 'how come they work for me'.Should they not be working?Its you who keeps bothering me, so you can only report yourself for offtopic, i simply don't care reporting you.