How should Europe deal with FYROM?

[poiuytrewq0987]

I think the whole region should be just annexed to Serbia and expel all Gypsies and Muslims to Turkey.

[Raikaswinþs]

I think Greece and Serbia should be annexed to Macedonia, put the capital in Skopje and name a Gypsy the first minister and a female Muslim minister of equal opportunities

[Raskolnikov]

From what I read it is essentially Bulgarian. Is that true?

[Gaztelu]

It should be cut up and distributed amongst the Albanians, Greeks, and Serbs.

[Loki]

It should be cut up and distributed amongst the Albanians, Greeks, and Serbs.

If split up, the largest chunk should go to Bulgaria, since the Macedonians are essentially Bulgarians.

[The Lawspeaker]

It should be split up between Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece. The Albanian-speaking part should be occupied by Serbia and used as collateral for Kosovo.

Of course Kosovo should be invaded next by a joint Serb/Bulgarian/Greek force and the Albanian population thrown across back the border back into Albania/Turkey (including the gypo's) from where they came. Kosovo will be reunited with Serbia. And then the Albanian-speaking part of Macedonia will be reunited with Albania.

Since Albania threatens international stability in that region all persons of Albanian descent wherever they life in that region will be forcefully repatriated.

[Ushtari]

and the Albanian population thrown across back the border back into Albania/Turkey from where they came.
Do you have any source for this?

[poiuytrewq0987]

It should be cut up and distributed amongst the Albanians, Greeks, and Serbs.

The only concession I would even consider is Monastir/Bitola as that city was part of ancient Macedon for a quite whole and been part of the Hellenistic world for a bit too. Other than that the whole region shouod go to Serbia as we earned it in the First Balkan War only to be lost after we formed Yugoslavia with the second Yugoslavia being led by a Sloveneocroatian pig and being the anti-Serb he was, he disconnected three states of Serbia into artifical entities (Kosovo, Vojvodina, and Vardarska).


If split up, the largest chunk should go to Bulgaria, since the Macedonians are essentially Bulgarians.

Sure... if you buy into Bulgarian propaganda who wants a Greater Bulgaria. The reality is the Slavs in Vardarska have never fully identified as Serb or Bulgaian... they are very much like the Bosniaks wh are Bosnian because of the land they live on not because they are an actual ethnicity. Skoplje was the capital of the Serbian Empire and even Tsar Dushan was crowned there and it becoming again part of Serbia after the Balkan Wars entitles us to the land.

[Lithium]

For me the "ethnic macedonians" are just Bulgarians living in the region called Macedonia. I think that is enough.. :D I want freedom for the people there to call themselves Bulgarians, without being threatened. Macedonia isn't a land that is worth for fighting for any of the countries that pretend it is theirs. So I don't care.

[poiuytrewq0987]

For me the "ethnic macedonians" are just Bulgarians living in the region called Macedonia. I think that is enough.. :D I want freedom for the people there to call themselves Bulgarians, without being threatened. Macedonia isn't a land that is worth for fighting for any of the countries that pretend it is theirs. So I don't care.

Typical Bulgarian POV. The reality is Vardarskans hate Bulgarians and Bulgaria so much to even think of a peaceful union between both countries is living in a dream. On the other hand, many Vardarskans have positive memories of Yugoslavia and a general liking of Serbs making possible for a natural union between Serbia and Vardarska.

Vardarska is worth fighting for. Every single piece of land always have potential for it to become great and to just ignore it because the current conditions are undesirable is rather foolish but it's something I'd like you and your cohorts to keep doing. :)

[Sikeliot]

Isn't the Macedonian language closest to Bulgarian, and the same for the origins of the people? I don't see why they shouldn't be their own country but Bulgaria would be the more logical option.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Isn't the Macedonian language closest to Bulgarian, and the same for the origins of the people? I don't see why they shouldn't be their own country but Bulgaria would be the more logical option.

Another tidbit of Bulgarian propaganda. The Macedonian language is closest to Serbian not Bulgarian despite it sharing a lot of similarities with Bulgarian. The reason being...? Vardarska was under Bulgarian rule once for only 2 years during WW2 whereas Vardarska has been Serbian ever since its liberation by Serbs in the First Balkan War. Before that, it belonged to Turkey. And before that... Vardarska changed hands between the Bulgarian and Serbian empires but no one can deny the historical significance of the region it has for Serbia with Skoplje being the capital of the Serbian Empire. If the national consciousness fell apart in Vardarska today they are far more likely to join Serbia than Bulgaria since a lot of Vardarskans hate Bulgarians.

[iNird]

The Slavs in FYROM historically identified as Bulgarian (the northern areas had a Serbian element) but during the Yugo these Slavs were brainwashed into thinking they are "Macedonian." These "Macedonians" despise Bulgarians today and consider their Bulgarian counterparts "Tatars." A union with Bulgaria may seem unlikely, but the fact that many of these Macedonians are willing to take Bulgarian passports leads me to believe that a union could occur if these Macedonians view the union in a positive manner. The same could be said for Serbia.

The northern parts (Skopje, Kumanovo) has some Serbian elements but not enough to warrant a union. Serbs should look elsewhere ie Bosnia.

Greeks should be happy to see the country breakup and should not receive any lands. Greeks do not respect the rights of minorities and would not handle the Slavic, Albanian, Turkish, and other elements in FYROM well.

The majority of Albanians in the Western part of FYROM would gladly join Kosova or Albania. Cities such as Tetova (Tetovo), Gostivar and Dibra (Debar) have a clear Albanian majority. Cities like Kercova (kicevo), Kumanova, Shkup (Skopje) have mixed areas and would prove difficult to partition. And the Albanians in areas like Prilep, Manastir (a historical city for Albanians), Prespa and etc would be at disadvantage if a partition would occcur.

I don't think any partition should occur as of now. IMHO FYROM should become be a multi-ethnic state and should be federalized (ala a Switzerland, Canada.)

[Sikeliot]

Greeks should be happy to see the country breakup and should not receive any lands. Greeks do not respect the rights of minorities and would not handle the Slavic, Albanian, Turkish, and other elements in FYROM well.


It's said that Greece has absorbed several ethnic minorities and they've all become Hellenized. The same would probably happen to Macedonians which would result in the loss of their language and culture.

[iNird]

It's said that Greece has absorbed several ethnic minorities and they've all become Hellenized. The same would probably happen to Macedonians which would result in the loss of their language and culture.

Yes over time these groups were assimilated, but I don't know if that is possible today. Most of these "Macedonians" today despise Greeks and sympathize with the Aegean Macedonians (Slavic speakers from Greece who supposedly fled Greece because they refused to become Greek.)

There is an economic incentive though for these "Macedonians" to become Greek.

Still I think Greece does not want lands from Macedonia. What would they do with an undeveloped lands with non-Greeks? It would be more harm than good imo.

[Sikeliot]

Still I think Greece does not want lands from Macedonia. What would they do with an undeveloped lands with non-Greeks? It would be more harm than good imo.


I think if they did (which I wouldn't know since I'm not Greek), it'd be on historical basis or feeling like the land was rightfully Greek.

[iNird]

I think if they did (which I wouldn't know since I'm not Greek), it'd be on historical basis or feeling like the land was rightfully Greek.

If we go on a historical basis then the issue becomes much more complex because which historical period would one use to decide the partition of Macedonia? For example Turkey could make a claim since they ruled the area for over 500 years.

A pragmatic approach should be taken if a partition would to occur.

[Portukalos]

Fyrom is not macedonia.

[Albion]

Expel the Albanians back to Albania and Kosovo from whence they came.
Rename it 'Vadarska' is it was actually called once.
Cut corporation tax to zero and make up the money from other taxes but mainly from increased revenue from wealthier citizens once business moves in.
Create a cheap tourist industry.
Open up trade with Western Europe and EU.
Apply to EFTA.

[Ushtari]

[LIST]
Expel the Albanians back to Albania and Kosovo from whence they came.

Do you have any source for this?

[The Lawspeaker]

Do you have any source for this?
:coffee: So weak.

[Albion]

Do you have any source for this?

We've debated this before on the Albania section threads.

[Ushtari]

We've debated this before on the Albania section threads.
I asked for a source about your claim, not if we have discussed this matter or not.

Again, do you have any source to support you statement?

[Albion]

I asked for a source about your claim, not if we have discussed this matter or not.

Again, do you have any source to support you statement?

Change 'statement' to 'opinion' and that makes me entitled to it.

No, I don't have a source because I've read a lot in the past about populations around there on which to form my opinion but haven't bookmarked or saved the sites (it was over a year ago).
So if I were to have to source it that would mean I'd have to trawl through many websites again yo find the information and so since I have better things to do you'll just have to accept my word on it.

[Monolith]

Most people in this thread are suffering from bandwagon fallacy syndrome (BFS). Not to mention you guys are actually taking into account the opinion of a teenage American ignoramus.

[Albion]

Most people in this thread are suffering from bandwagon fallacy syndrome (BFS). Not to mention you guys are actually taking into account the opinion of a teenage American ignoramus.

So who's the yank?

I think you are under estimating how many Europeans hold rather negative views towards the Albanians and Bosniaks.
It is not a case that people on here are sheep following the Shepard, its more a case that a lot of members on here don't look too kindly towards the aforementioned peoples (sad for Albanian members on here but still).

[iNird]

Do you have any source for this?

This is one of the biggest urban myths that is constantly claimed by Serbs and FYROMians (I will refrain from referring to them as Macedonian from this point forward.) FYROMians claim that the majority of Albanians in FYROM are recent migrants from Albania and Kosova but there is absolutely no proof for this claim. Albania's borders were sealed shut during the communist times for one. And sure there may have be some Albanians from Kosova that live in today FYROM, but there are many Albanian families that are from FYROM that live in Kosova. Prishtina University was the only Albanian university and many Albanians from Macedonia moved to Prishtina after they finished school. I know several Albanians that found their husband/wife at the University.

The largest migration involving Albanians included expulsions to Turkey in the 20th century and migration of Albanians from the former YU to the West.

There was a large migration of Slavs from Greece into FYROM. Numbers on wiki put their number around 80,000 offsprings of Aegean FYROMians (most likely this number is understated.) When these refugees entered FYROM they were given free apartments, government jobs and the whole works.

Today you have these idiots from Aegean that call Albanians newcomers.
:rolleyes:

[iNird]

We've debated this before on the Albania section threads.

The President of FYROM Nikola Gruevski



Gruevski has family roots in Macedonia, Greece.[6] His paternal grandparents stem from Achlada (Greek: Αχλάδα; Macedonian: Крушоради, "Krušoradi"),[7] a village in the Meliti municipality of the Florina Prefecture, Greece, where his family had the Greek surname Grouios ("Γρούϊος").[7] His grandfather, Νικόλαος Γρούιος, (Nicholaos Grouios), joined the Greek Army during the Second World War and fought in the Greco-Italian War where he lost his life in 1940 and his name is mentioned on the war memorial in Achlada among the names of the locals who were killed during World War II. Some years later, during the Greek Civil War, Gruevski's grandmother and father emigrated to the Socialist Republic of Macedonia where they change their original last name Grouios ("Γρούϊος") to the Slavic name "Gruevski" and gained citizenship.[8][9]


Newcomers?
;)

[Loki]

The Albanians are the oldest gene pool in the region, apart from the Greeks of course (well to be fair, the ancestors of the Albanians were contemporaries of the Greeks even).

[Albion]

The President of FYROM Nikola Gruevski




Newcomers?
;)

The Greeks largely assimilated and expelled the Macedonians / Vadarskans in Greece, that's why Macedonian nationalists make claims to what they call "Aegean Macedonia" today.
It was not just Macedonians, but Albanians and Aromanians too, assimilation was common practice in the building of nation-states in 19th and 20th century Europe and it was done very effectively in Greece.
Many areas of Northern Greece weren't historically Greek since the time of the Byzantines or before.

Greece was put together by romantics from Britain and France seeking to restore a civilization they looked back to, Britain aided Greece against the Ottomans and offered it territories (including the United States of the Ionian Islands) and played a large part in drawing the borders.
Greece further settled the non-Greek areas of the country with Pontic and Colchis Greeks from Turkey, Georgia and Armenia (mostly Turkey), expelled from Turkey and with "Turks" (any muslims) expelled from Greece to Turkey in return. This also boosted Greek assimilation of the ethnic minorities.

So it is that many formerly non-Greek peoples became Greek in a matter of a few generations by assimilation or expulsion. All that remains are a few Aromanians and Albanians in the border regions.

[iNird]

The Greeks largely assimilated and expelled the Macedonians / Vadarskans in Greece, that's why Macedonian nationalists make claims to what they call "Aegean Macedonia" today.


What "Macedonians"? If you mean Macedonians in a regional sense then yes. But most of these "Macedonians" were simply Slavic speakers who identified as "Macedonian" in a regional sense. Similar to an Albanian in Kosova who would identify as a Kosovar.


It was not just Macedonians, but Albanians and Aromanians too, assimilation was common practice in the building of nation-states in 19th and 20th century Europe and it was done very effectively in Greece.
Many areas of Northern Greece weren't historically Greek since the time of the Byzantines or before.

Agreed. Many of the Arvanites in today's Greece have been assimilated and the Cham Albanians were expelled.


Greece was put together by romantics from Britain and France seeking to restore a civilization they looked back to, Britain aided Greece against the Ottomans and offered it territories (including the United States of the Ionian Islands) and played a large part in drawing the borders.
Greece further settled the non-Greek areas of the country with Pontic and Colchis Greeks from Turkey, Georgia and Armenia (mostly Turkey), expelled from Turkey and with "Turks" (any muslims) expelled from Greece to Turkey in return. This also boosted Greek assimilation of the ethnic minorities.

So it is that many formerly non-Greek peoples became Greek in a matter of a few generations by assimilation or expulsion. All that remains are a few Aromanians and Albanians in the border regions

I agree with the majority of this post.

But why should Albanians from Macedonia be expelled to Albania and Macedonia? When Albania gained independence in 1912 the majority of it's population lived outside its' borders. Many territories that included parts of Montenegro, Kosova, Western FYROM, Chameria were not included. Therefore, where do you draw the border for Albania and Kosova?

During the ottoman times, these lands were separated into vilayets.

http://www.tlfq.ulaval.ca/axl/Europe/images/albanie-vilayets-map.gif
As you can see the Kosova vilayet included much of Macedonia.

[Albion]

What "Macedonians"? If you mean Macedonians in a regional sense then yes. But most of these "Macedonians" were simply Slavic speakers who identified as "Macedonian" in a regional sense. Similar to an Albanian in Kosova who would identify as a Kosovar.

My mistake - "Vadarskans".


Still why should Albanians from Macedonia be expelled to Albania and Macedonia? When Albania gained independence in 1912 the majority of it's population was not in Albania. Many territories that included parts of Montenegro, Kosova, Western FYROM, Chameria were not included.

Because I don't believe that Albanians did in fact form much of the population of Macedonia or inhabit a significant area of its modern territory. My belief is that most Albanians in Macedonia are recent migrants and a result of the few native Albanians having higher birth rates than Vadarskans (Slavs) and subsequently spreading throughout most of the west of the country and then to other areas throughout it.

[iNird]

double post

[Ushtari]

Change 'statement' to 'opinion' and that makes me entitled to it.

No, I don't have a source because I've read a lot in the past about populations around there on which to form my opinion but haven't bookmarked or saved the sites (it was over a year ago).
So if I were to have to source it that would mean I'd have to trawl through many websites again yo find the information and so since I have better things to do you'll just have to accept my word on it.
Yeah, i read somewhere(about a year ago) that the original home of Albanians is on the Moon. To bad i dont remember the site.


So who's the yank?

I think you are under estimating how many Europeans hold rather negative views towards the Albanians and Bosniaks.
It is not a case that people on here are sheep following the Shepard, its more a case that a lot of members on here don't look too kindly towards the aforementioned peoples (sad for Albanian members on here but still).
Like if i give a shit about what degenerating western europeans think of my people?



Because I don't believe that Albanians did in fact form much of the population of Macedonia or inhabit a significant area of its modern territory. My belief is that most Albanians in Macedonia are recent migrants and a result of the few native Albanians having higher birth rates than Vadarskans (Slavs) and subsequently spreading throughout most of the west of the country and then to other areas throughout it.
Again, do you have any source for this?

[iNird]

My mistake - "Vadarskans".



Because I don't believe that Albanians did in fact form much of the population of Macedonia or inhabit a significant area of its modern territory. My belief is that most Albanians in Macedonia are recent migrants and a result of the few native Albanians having higher birth rates than Vadarskans (Slavs) and subsequently spreading throughout most of the west of the country and then to other areas throughout it.

How recent are you speaking of? It is hard to substantiate such a claim since census during the ottoman times were done on a religious basis. Even the census done in the 20th century are out of sync:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia

The census in 1948 showed Albanians made up 17.1% . How does the Albanian figure go from 17% to 12% in 1953? How does the Turkish figure double in the same period? Well I can answer this one. During the 50's, many Albanians left for Turkey due to policies of Rankovic.

[Albion]

Yeah, i read somewhere(about a year ago) that the original home of Albanians is on the Moon. To bad i dont remember the site.

Don't say that, the Serbs will use it against you. :D


Like if i give a shit about what degenerating western europeans think of my people?

It was in reply to what Monolith said.


Again, do you have any source for this?

Maybe...


How recent are you speaking of?

The Ottoman onslaughts against the Serbs in Eastern Kosovo and the depopulation of NW Macedonia around Tetevo. Albanians filled the vacuum.

[iNird]

Celtabria let us assume for argument sake that you are correct. Let us assume that Albanians are newcomers to the area while the Slavs are natives (tough assumption to make in this chicken/egg scenario since Slavs invasion to the balkans is well documented and most historians believe Albanians are natives to the region which would make us winners of this chicken/egg scenario.)

But let us assume you are right. If the Albanians in your Tetova example have only been in the region for a few hundred years then my question is where do you draw the line for rightful ownership. Is a few hundred years not enough time for Albanians to call Tetova it's home? Is 500 years the precedent? Should we use this standard for Europeans in America, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa? How about Russians in East Russia?

Secondly, let us think of this in a realistic scenario. How do you plan to relocate 500,000 + Albanians from FYROM to Albania and Kosova? Will these people just get up and leave? Will they be given fair compensation for their homes? Will they leave their business aside? Who will fill this vacuum? There is a possibility that many of these people would leave for the West instead. Claim some sort of political immunity.

[Ushtari]

Don't say that, the Serbs will use it against you. :D
Its actually true
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ZiIY089n7Ss/SEsW0z-gWYI/AAAAAAAAADM/rFzmhW3AkVU/s320/albanian+flag+on+the+moon+copy.jpg




Maybe...



The Ottoman onslaughts against the Serbs in Eastern Kosovo and the depopulation of NW Macedonia around Tetevo. Albanians filled the vacuum.
So you claim Albanians are recent immigrants in FYROM, but you dont have any source wich supports your statement?https://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/whoco5.gif

[iNird]

double post please delete

[Ushtari]

Celtabria, you must understand that if you want your little thoughts to be valid, you must be able to provide a serious impartial source to back up your little fantasies.

[Albion]

Is a few hundred years not enough time for Albanians to call Tetova it's home? Is 500 years the precedent? Should we use this standard for Europeans in America, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa? How about Russians in East Russia?

I don't care about the colonies, it was non-Europeans who got displaced there.

Well I suppose since Tetevo and Ohrid were already being depopulated that Albanians simply made use of vacant land so I suppose that would give you a decent claim to it. But there has been a spread of Albanians into all parts of Macedonia, even Eastern areas which have never been Albanian.

[iNird]

I don't care about the colonies, it was non-Europeans who got displaced there.

Well I suppose since Tetevo and Ohrid were already being depopulated that Albanians simply made use of vacant land so I suppose that would give you a decent claim to it. But there has been a spread of Albanians into all parts of Macedonia, even Eastern areas which have never been Albanian.

Which eastern areas? The majority of Albanians in FYROM live in Western Macedonia. In addition, the opposite is true. Cities like Manastir (Bitola) (which is an important city for Albanian history) had a large Albanian population but today the city is FYROMian.

Demographics change over time. FYROM is no exception.

[Ushtari]

Urpean, dont mind this idiot. I have been discussing with him before and just like here he kept denying the obvious and spread his usual bullshit without having any kind of source to back it up.

And btw Celtabria, if you want an in depth explanation about why half of the population live outside of Albanias present borders, you can read what i wrote here:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22801

[iNird]

You're right. Sorry I was trying to use European Enlightenment ideas such as reason and proof. Maybe we should go on their level.

We're Illyrians........all of your bases are belong to us!

:D

[Albion]

Its actually true
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ZiIY089n7Ss/SEsW0z-gWYI/AAAAAAAAADM/rFzmhW3AkVU/s320/albanian+flag+on+the+moon+copy.jp

Hahahaha

[QUOTE]So you claim Albanians are recent immigrants in FYROM, but you dont have any source wich supports your statement?https://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/whoco5.gif

No, because my original post was a throwaway statement, I don't want to get into all this shit again.
I could find some if I tried and I know plenty of Macedonians who'd love to provide required sources.

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianGreekConflict/images/map_german.jpg


Urpean, dont mind this idiot. I have been discussing with him before and just like here he kept denying the obvious and spread his usual bullshit without having any kind of source to back it up.

Yes, we had rather a long discussion where I did provide quite a few sources. I get bored of the relentless march of Albanians to defend themselves as internet warriors though so subsequently gave up, its like trying to teach an apple to be an orange.

So I'll reiterate, please stop writing because I don't want to keep replying. Thank you.

[Monolith]

So who's the yank?
The one who started this thread.


I think you are under estimating how many Europeans hold rather negative views towards the Albanians and Bosniaks.
It is not a case that people on here are sheep following the Shepard, its more a case that a lot of members on here don't look too kindly towards the aforementioned peoples (sad for Albanian members on here but still).
But I do understand that both Albanians and Bosnians are not exactly well liked, mainly because they are Muslims. What I meant was, most people here think that Macedonians are either Bulgarians or Serbs, without knowing anything about their language, history, culture etc. Then you have the same people agreeing with each others about that issue, hence the bandwagon fallacy.

[Albion]

The one who started this thread.

Ah.


But I do understand that both Albanians and Bosnians are not exactly well liked, mainly because they are Muslims. What I meant was, most people here think that Macedonians are either Bulgarians or Serbs, without knowing anything about their language, history, culture etc. Then you have the same people agreeing with each others about that issue, hence the bandwagon fallacy.

Yes, I've noticed that. We need some Macedonians on here.

[Ushtari]

No, because my original post was a throwaway statement, I don't want to get into all this shit again.
I could find some if I tried and I know plenty of Macedonians who'd love to provide required sources.

Next time when i refer to a text relevant for the topic, please read it, because if you had, you would find out that during this period:



"First, Albania as a cohesive political entity, did not exist. The territories which had a distinct Albanian population majority were split among the Vilayets of Shkoder, Janina, Monastir and Kosovo"
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/balkans/albania18781912.html

[iNird]

The one who started this thread.

But I do understand that both Albanians and Bosnians are not exactly well liked, mainly because they are Muslims. What I meant was, most people here think that Macedonians are either Bulgarians or Serbs, without knowing anything about their language, history, culture etc. Then you have the same people agreeing with each others about that issue, hence the bandwagon fallacy.

What are Macedonians then? What characteristics distinguish them from the aforementioned groups?

[Monolith]

What are Macedonians then? What characteristics distinguish them from the aforementioned groups?
How do you distinguish a Czech from a Slovak?

[Moustache]

Peoples don't grow in tubes in a sterile environment, but in interaction with them. How is the concept of a nation taking the name of a former empire (or the people changing language, dissolving in another population, fusing with others to create a new people etc.) something shameful, or even new? To name but one example: the Uyghurs of today aren't the descendants of the eponymous Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_Empire) (that would be the Yughurs), but simply a collection of Turkic tribes who decided to name themselves after the Khaganate of old.

Keep them Macedonians around, if only for comedy value. :p

[Macedonian]

Europe should deal with the Republic of Macedonia just like any of its members: with respect. Not with double standards.

@Albion: your post really inspired me to join this forum.

@Urpean: we Macedonians are just that, not Serbs or Bulgarians, and certainly not Greeks or Albanians. If the Croatians have a full right of not being Serbs (despite over 95% having the same language), then why would one say that we are/were Bulgarians, with Macedonian and Bulgarian having about 60-70% mutual intelligibility, with a very different grammar, accentation and morphology. To say the truth, a large portion of the ethnic Macedonians have identified themselves as Bulgarians in the past couple of centuries, also like the other portion that have identified themselves as Serbs, just because they were following the Bulgarian Exarchiate / Serbian Partriarchiate. In the same time, another group of islamized Macedonians (mainly in western Macedonia), identified themselves as Turks. All of them speaking the very same language, divided only by religion. And that language was Macedonian.

[Lithium]

The Macedonian Government have to be sued for stealing history from Bulgaria and Greece.

[Macedonian]

Peoples don't grow in tubes in a sterile environment, but in interaction with them. How is the concept of a nation taking the name of a former empire (or the people changing language, dissolving in another population, fusing with others to create a new people etc.) something shameful, or even new? To name but one example: the Uyghurs of today aren't the descendants of the eponymous Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_Empire) (that would be the Yughurs), but simply a collection of Turkic tribes who decided to name themselves after the Khaganate of old.

Keep them Macedonians around, if only for comedy value. :p

And in the same time you identify yourself as a Hungarian, a descendant to Atilla the Hun, AND being white european at the same time? Just like Bulgarians that identify themselves with a Turkic tribe? So both Hungarians and Bulgarians HAVE the right of claiming continuity, but Macedonians don't?

Anyway, I do agree with you that nations don't grow in tubes. Whether ancient Macedonians were proto-Slavic (a proposed theory) or the Slavic tribes invaded their lands in the 6th century (the currently accepted theory, even though it says that no more than 100.000 Slavs came, thus it's not possible that they had completely erased the 1.000.000 ancient Macedonians that lived there already), it is unthinkable to say that there are no genetic leftovers from any of the groups that lived here. I strongly believe that I have ancient Macedonian, Illyrian, Thracian, even Greek, Celtic, Viking, Saxon, Slavic, Turkic and what not blood in my veins. I see that process as refreshing the blood/genes. There is nothing wrong with that. Otherwise we would end up reproducing with our relatives. But the main compound of the ethnic consciousness is the basic feeling of what you are. And I am a Macedonian, as people throughout all centuries since Alexander have declared themselves.

[Thundermark]

Serbia should annex the country

wtf? In what parallel universe do Serbs have any right to Macedonia?


Bulgaria should annex the country

Without getting into ethnic relations within Macedonia, that country has historical background to exist as a country.


Split up the country between Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria

Why dont Bulgarians, Hungarians and Albanians split Serbia? Go figure...


Rename the country but maintain the Status Quo

It should be only Macedonia.

[Kataphraktoi]

Macedonia is not a real country, it was a region of Yugoslavia that Tito carved up to separate and cause tension between Serb/Macedonian Orthodox brothers. That Macedonians are Bulgarians is just modern propaganda, the whole region is Serbia! Genetically, the Macedonians are closer to Serbs than Bulgarians; they still may be distinct, but should be ruled by Serbia.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Macedonia is not a real country, it was a region of Yugoslavia that Tito carved up to separate and cause tension between Serb/Macedonian Orthodox brothers. That Macedonians are Bulgarians is just modern propaganda, the whole region is Serbia! Genetically, the Macedonians are closer to Serbs than Bulgarians; they still may be distinct, but should be ruled by Serbia.

I am from Vardarska and I cluster genetically with Serbs. I was born a Serb and I will die a Serb. It was nothing short of a blessing that Serbia liberated the region from the Turks in 1913. We were finally reunited with our brothers who revolted in 1804.

However, all gains we made in WW1 and WW2 were summarily reversed by a Sloveno-Croatian Tito who broke up Serbia into five pieces:

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/4720/thefive1.png




wtf? In what parallel universe do Serbs have any right to Macedonia? Maybe because I am from there and I recognise the right my country has to the land there?


Without getting into ethnic relations within Macedonia, that country has historical background to exist as a country.
The same with Bosnian Serbs who deserve to be reunited with their mother country.


Why dont Bulgarians, Hungarians and Albanians split Serbia? Go figure...
Sure, I want to see them try and fail hard just as they have failed before during the Second Balkan War, WW1 and WW2.


It should be only Macedonia. A Slavic country worshiping Alexander the Great doesn't sound like much of a country to me.

[Macedonian]

@Dusan: You are a pathetic lier. Vardarska Banovina (Lordship of Vardar River) is the name of one of the 10 provinces (lordships, banovine) of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. It comprised the territory of the Serb occupied Vardar Macedonia (today the Republic of Macedonia), as well as a greater portion of Kosovo and Southern Proper Serbia (mainly around Vranje and Leskovac).

By your logic, the "real" name of Slovenia is "Dravska", Vojvodina is "Dunavska", and Montenegro with portions of Bosnia and Kosovo is "Zetska"? The sad thing is that I know that you know the real truth, its just that you sided with Greeks (who invented this stupidity about "the real name of Vardarska", and by the way always misspell it as Vardaska, adding to the stupidity).

And by the way, can you post a proof that you really live in the Republic of Macedonia? I don't think so, because all Serbs I know live in the Kumanovo region, and they are loyal to Macedonia. Just like the Republic of Serbia has recognized us and the Macedonian minority in Serbia. You are an embarrassment to your Serbian nation, right next to Milosevic and Seselj.

[Johnston]

Hah! Since the Macedonians are so fervent in their belief of being Alexandrian, then let the Greeks have the entire thing, and do whatever the hell they feel like with it...

[poiuytrewq0987]

@Dusan: You are a pathetic lier. Vardarska Banovina (Lordship of Vardar River) is the name of one of the 10 provinces (lordships, banovine) of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. It comprised the territory of the Serb occupied Vardar Macedonia (today the Republic of Macedonia), as well as a greater portion of Kosovo and Southern Proper Serbia (mainly around Vranje and Leskovac).

By your logic, the "real" name of Slovenia is "Dravska", Vojvodina is "Dunavska", and Montenegro with portions of Bosnia and Kosovo is "Zetska"? The sad thing is that I know that you know the real truth, its just that you sided with Greeks (who invented this stupidity about "the real name of Vardarska", and by the way always misspell it as Vardaska, adding to the stupidity).

And by the way, can you post a proof that you really live in the Republic of Macedonia? I don't think so, because all Serbs I know live in the Kumanovo region, and they are loyal to Macedonia. Just like the Republic of Serbia has recognized us and the Macedonian minority in Serbia. You are an embarrassment to your Serbian nation, right next to Milosevic and Seselj.

I am from there but I don't live in that banana republic today. I live in the US and I am glad do since it means I won't have to set my eyes on embarrassing statues and neo-Greek buildings! :rofl:

Vardarska is what I call the region, in the past it was known as Paeonia but never Macedonia except for a tiny part in the southwest where Monastir is.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Paeonia%26Environs.jpg

Sure, the Serbs in FYROMistan are loyal to your banana republic... because they have no choice but if given a chance they'd fight to dismantle your banana republic.

[Macedonian]

It's easy to hate and give rude comments from so far away, having no chance to see with open eyes on the very place.

[Guapo]

bomb them back to the stone age, especially the albanian parts.

[poiuytrewq0987]

It's easy to hate and give rude comments from so far away, having no chance to see with open eyes on the very place.

You're an idiot. I am from there, I have lived there and I can see NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that links the land and people there to ancient Macedonians. Just throw yourself in front of a bus and end it all. :coffee:

[Guapo]

You're an idiot. I am from there, I have lived there and I can see NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that links the land and people there to ancient Macedonians. Just throw yourself in front of a bus and end it all. :coffee:

Relax, he be trollin'. Real deal Yugos know that Macedonia is a shithole.

[o__o]

Maintain the status QUO

[Ianus]

Manitain the status quo is the best solution.

[Alexq]

Europe cant interfere, as it didn't in the past 600 years, since ottomans came, didn't care then, why should now?

[Petros Houhoulis]

Europe cant interfere, as it didn't in the past 600 years, since ottomans came, didn't care then, why should now?

Exactly... That's why they won't do nothing when the Albanians shall annex you...

[Kastrioti1443]

Exactly... That's why they won't do nothing when the Albanians shall annex you...

Stop with this '' albanians with anex'' you in every thread.... no albanian has planes like expansion or anything like that... albanians in fyrom have a lot of other problems such as poverty, corrupted politicians, gypsies, torbesh ( both groups want to be called albanian), islamic radicals, mass migration etc etc etc. One thing is sure, that fyromans with never assimilated albanians and more albanian will come from immigration and invest in their lands.

[Bloodsport]

To be honest, I'm Greek and I don't particularly care about claiming any of their territory, as far as I'm concerned they are mostly Bulgarians with some Serbians and Albanians, all I want is for them to stop using the name Macedonia. It's part of our culture, history and territory that they are trying to claim for their own (yes, even the territory).

All of the land can go to Serbia, Bulgaria or even Albania, I don't care, as long as it's known that there's only one Macedonia and only one group of Macedonians, and they belong to Greece.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Stop with this '' albanians with anex'' you in every thread.... no albanian has planes like expansion or anything like that... albanians in fyrom have a lot of other problems such as poverty, corrupted politicians, gypsies, torbesh ( both groups want to be called albanian), islamic radicals, mass migration etc etc etc. One thing is sure, that fyromans with never assimilated albanians and more albanian will come from immigration and invest in their lands.

...But you are expanding either by demographic means (more children) buying farms from those wishing to immigrate to the urban areas or in other countries altogether, and even by assimilating the Torbesh, or even some Gypries - the Turks are accusing you of trying to assimilate them too, but I bet it's part of their hallucinations as usual because I have not seen hard proof, only a contest about who shall assimilate the Torbesh.

Poverty, corrupted politicians and mass migration are common problems shared over many parts of the Balkans. Religious extremism is somewhat more pronounced there, but not unusual and has not led to a conflict (other than real ethnic conflicts masquerading as religious ones...)

P.S.

The Albanians in this forum do not agree upon your definition of Albanian. You won't convince me either...

[Kastrioti1443]

...But you are expanding either by demographic means (more children) buying farms from those wishing to immigrate to the urban areas or in other countries altogether, and even by assimilating the Torbesh, or even some Gypries - the Turks are accusing you of trying to assimilate them too, but I bet it's part of their hallucinations as usual because I have not seen hard proof, only a contest about who shall assimilate the Torbesh.

Poverty, corrupted politicians and mass migration are common problems shared over many parts of the Balkans. Religious extremism is somewhat more pronounced there, but not unusual and has not led to a conflict (other than real ethnic conflicts masquerading as religious ones...)

P.S.

The Albanians in this forum do not agree upon your definition of Albanian. You won't convince me either...

No one is buying farms and the Torbesh are a plague which no one wants to deal with, those mongrels are being assimilated by desire because they want to find an identity.

What definition of albanian are you saying?

[Petros Houhoulis]

No one is buying farms and the Torbesh are a plague which no one wants to deal with, those mongrels are being assimilated by desire because they want to find an identity.

What definition of albanian are you saying?

Oh, but they do buy farms, legally. The Torbesh are anything but a "plague", and unfortunately for you, the other Albanians would not mind adopting them. Only you are a purist in the Albanian ranks...

[Kastrioti1443]

Oh, but they do buy farms, legally. The Torbesh are anything but a "plague", and unfortunately for you, the other Albanians would not mind adopting them. Only you are a purist in the Albanian ranks...

No albanian wants them, no fyrom albanian like Grizzly, Duskfall, iNird, Sturmgehwer, Agron, wants the torbesh into their families.

Of course I am a purist, I am a catholic albanian highlander.

[Petros Houhoulis]

No albanian wants them, no fyrom albanian like Grizzly, Duskfall, iNird, Sturmgehwer, Agron, wants the torbesh into their families.

Of course I am a purist, I am a catholic albanian highlander.

Nobody asked any of them to join the Torbesh families in any way, but they are obviously willing to incorporate them into the Albanian ethnos. Get used to it!