Celtic vs. Germanic PCA

[Peterski]

From Eurogenes blog:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/09/celtic-vs-germanic-europe.html

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/09/celtic-vs-germanic-europe.html?m=1

Quote:

"I have a feeling that ancient DNA from post-Bronze Age Northwestern Europe will be coming thick and fast from now on. To get the most out of such data I've designed a new Principal Component Analysis (PCA) that does a better job of separating the Celtic- and Germanic-speaking populations of Europe than my previous efforts of this sort (see here and here). Below are two different versions of the same PCA. The relevant datasheet is available here.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-o5bLx1NoVV0/W55Qai-4VTI/AAAAAAAAHN8/3vDHMJFj_aw1SusVi1O_16Uf_txWhncPgCLcBGAs/s1600/Celto-Germanic_PCA2.png

And here a version with more populations included:

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YMii4ZFFx7k/W55QUJB-L7I/AAAAAAAAHN4/ZANhxNSOhssU6hiWO39rSJziehTKu2uXACLcBGAs/s1600/Celto-Germanic_PCA.png

And here's a Discrimination Analysis (LDA) plot based on the 25 principal components. It further differentiates many of the populations along the east > west cline of genetic diversity:

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jJldyRCejcs/W58M2oEH5TI/AAAAAAAAHOM/PO653oBOdHgIVv2Pjf4yak-ix1RqoHi8wCLcBGAs/s1600/Celto-Germanic_LDA.png

The difference between the Germanic Anglo-Saxons and the Celtic and Roman Britons of what is now eastern England is obvious. The Anglo-Saxons could pass for Scandinavians, while the Celts and Romans both cluster between the Irish and French. This makes good sense, and is exactly what I was looking for. It's also interesting to see the Hallstatt Celts from Bylany, Czechia, clustering with the Belgians. I'll add this PCA to the Eurogenes store if there's enough interest from the community."

[Profileid]

Suspicious

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Slightly confused on how to interpret these PCA maps. So Frenchmen, Iberians and North Italians are the best remains of Celtic genetic heritage whereas the others are more Germanic induced?

[Peterski]

Suspicious

Which part(s)?

=====

From the comments section:

Al Bundy wrote:

"Great news.
Another interesting question is how big a genetic impact the Romans made in Britain, though the upcoming data is too early to answer that definitively."

Helgenes50 wrote:

"Very Intersesting.
Compared to the ancient Celts, the French are shifted south, to Italy
At least those of the the database, that makes sense, these being supposed to be from the Lyonnaise region. Lyon being the only real Roman city in Celtic Gaul, in Gallia comata for the Romans."

[Peterski]

Slightly confused on how to interpret these PCA maps. So Frenchmen, Iberians and North Italians are the best remains of Celtic genetic heritage whereas the others are more Germanic induced?

We don't know yet, still not enough of ancient Celtic samples.

Germany_Roman is not a local Celtic sample but a Roman soldier who was born in Iberia and died in Germany. It seems the French and Belgians are closer to Hallstatt Celts. Celtiberians had extra Mediterranean admixture. Interesting that modern English plot between England_IA (Iron Age Celtic Britons) and England_Anglo-Saxon, but much closer to the former. Original Anglo-Saxons were genetically like modern Scandinavians and similar to Nordic_IA (Late Iron Age sample from Southern Sweden).

==========

Nordic_IA = RISE174, check his K36 similarity map and kit number:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212389-Ancient-Britons-amp-Anglo-Saxons-in-Eurogenes-K36&p=4452921&viewfull=1

http://i.imgur.com/bWQZO4n.jpg

He is from 427-611 AD so Late Iron Age or Early Medieval depending on how you count.

[jobodwannaa]

Are the red area samples Germans? Or are they the Italy_Medieval_Collegno ones?

https://i.imgur.com/BM6vOJS.png

[Peterski]

Are the red area samples Germans? Or are they Italy_Medieval_Collegno ones?

https://i.imgur.com/BM6vOJS.png

There are several different populations in the red area.

Each polygon = one population. And sometimes just one dot.

Italy_Collegno are Longobards, and they ranged from fully Germanic to fully local, with some mixed individuals, the average was in between, that's why the label (text) is in between modern North Italy and Scandinavia.

[Lugh]

delete

[Peterski]

From the comments section. Davidski wrote:

"These PCA are mostly about relatively recent genetic drift. Well, a lot of this drift dates back to the Bronze Age (for instance, the Rathlin Irish_EBA samples cluster very strongly with the Irish in this PCA), but I call it recent because it defines the present-day genetic structure in this part of Europe.

You can have a look how the clusters overlap exactly by plugging the datasheet into the PAST program and changing the colors of each population. PAST is freely available here...

https://folk.uio.no/ohammer/past/index.html

I did have a look at the English cluster, and it's an interesting one because it stretches all the way from near the Scandinavians to south of the Irish cluster. But this isn't surprising considering that this English sample set includes individuals from the former Danelaw regions as well as the 'Celtic' Cornwall.

By the way, some of these English samples are from the west, near the Welsh border, where the Celtic cut of ancestry is still very high.

And I think the level of Celtic ancestry in the Low Countries is somewhat higher than most people realize."

[jobodwannaa]

There are several different populations in the red area.

Each polygon = one population. And sometimes just one dot.

Italy_Collegno are Longobards, and they ranged from fully Germanic to fully local, with some mixed individuals, the average was in between, that's why the label (text) is in between modern North Italy and Scandinavia.

The red polygon. It's Collegno right?

[Vid Flumina]

Did he use all 3 Anglo-Saxon samples available? One looks like an outlier/somewhat admixed:

https://i.imgur.com/gPKVCID.png

[Peterski]

The red polygon. It's Collegno right?

There is no red polygon, all polygons are blue (which makes it a bit hard to read just from that screenshot, because it is so compressed - I will open it in PAST later on and have a closer look).


Did he use all 3 Anglo-Saxon samples? One looks like an outlier/somewhat admixed:

Yeah that outlier was basically a Germanized Celt, or someone with mixed ancestry. I will open it in PAST later today when I get back home and check if he used all.

[jobodwannaa]

There is no red polygon, all polygons are blue (Which makes it a bit hard to read just from that screenshot, because it is so compressed - I will open it in PAST later on and have a closer look).

This one:

https://i.imgur.com/BM6vOJS.png

[J. Ketch]

Shows that the Continental and Insular Celts were always different, and the Celts of Southern England were more Southern shifted than those of Ireland due to Continental influence (Belgae?).

[Vid Flumina]

Yeah that outlier was basically a Germanized Celt, or someone with mixed ancestry. I will open it in PAST later today when I get back home and check if he used all.

I see one corner of the Anglo-Saxon cluster pointing toward England, unadmixed Anglo-Saxons seem virtually indistinguishable from Nordic Iron Age and quite distinct from the British Isles.

[Peterski]

I see one corner of the Anglo-Saxon cluster pointing toward England, unadmixed Anglo-Saxons seem virtually indistinguishable from Nordic Iron Age and quite distinct from the British Isles.

He used one sample from Hinxton (HS3), one from Oakington (O2) and one from Northumbria:

England_Anglo-Saxon:HS3-I0161
England_Anglo-Saxon:O2-I0773
England_Anglo-Saxon:NO3423

[Gründig]

you can go on the program Past, enter the data and than change the colors to see what over laps what.

I was plotted on that by David, but im having issues at the moment plotting it my self.

[Gründig]

Did he use all 3 Anglo-Saxon samples available? One looks like an outlier/somewhat admixed:

https://i.imgur.com/gPKVCID.png

Where did you take this from? I think its my plot lol

[Gründig]

Here is where David plotted me:

"John_Smith" Black star

https://i.imgur.com/I5Ot31Q.png

[Thorfinn]

Here is where David plotted me:

"John_Smith" Black star

https://i.imgur.com/I5Ot31Q.png
Hi Grundig. How are you? Your Black star in southern Germany. Reliable Alpine result :thumb001:

[Gründig]

Hi Grundig. How are you? Your Black star in southern Germany. Reliable Alpine result :thumb001:

Those plots are a little bit more than meets the eye. To truly see what im plotting by you need to change the colors of the dots. From the looks of it, i plot by southern netherlands and Germany. However, there is ALOT of overlap as you can see. I most definitely am southern german though, at least partially.

[İrle]

Your PCA is a total moshpit, impossible to figure anything out. Don't use groups and filled regions in this way next time.

[Thorfinn]

Those plots are a little bit more than meets the eye. To truly see what im plotting by you need to change the colors of the dots. From the looks of it, i plot by southern netherlands and Germany. However, there is ALOT of overlap as you can see.
Do you have the results K47 (Lukazh)?

[Gründig]

Do you have the results K47 (Lukazh)?

I have his K36 coming but not K47.

[Graham]

Would like to see how England overlaps with the Iron Age Briton, but also how many come close to the Angles in this. Are they still just the samples from Kent and Cornwall?

Would ancient Gaels be a bit different to say ancient Britons, with Irish Gaels sitting closer to the modern Irish? Irish and Welsh is completely unintelligible to one another. I just want tons of data from everywhere. :P

[Aren]

He should separate the medieval Lombard samples. Some are typically Germanic and cluster with Norwegians other are much more southern.

[Graham]

How does one get their plot?

[J. Ketch]

Would like to see how England overlaps with the Iron Age Briton, but also how many come close to the Angles in this. Are they still just the samples from Kent and Cornwall?

Would ancient Gaels be a bit different to say ancient Britons, with Irish Gaels sitting closer to the modern Irish? Irish and Welsh is completely unintelligible to one another. I just want tons of data from everywhere. :P
https://i.imgur.com/nwlOphe.png
The red bell shape represents the extent of the modern English here, I believe. So the Iron Age Britons are still close to some of the more Celtic parts of England. Iron Age Britons were obviously different to Iron Age Gaels, much more Northern Gallic influence in the Southern British tribes which the Romans attested.

My mother is from the Midlands and this is where she plots, black dots for the ancient population averages (only based on a handful of samples though)
https://i.postimg.cc/FKxZWZ2N/Capture.jpg

[J. Ketch]

How does one get their plot?
Email Davidski (Eurogenes) with your raw data and pay $6 USD.

[Token]

Anglo-Saxons were extremely Germanic.

[Joso]

Anglo-Saxons were extremely Germanic.

Yes and as far as i know, the term "Saxon" cames froma place in Germany

[Graham]

Bit of up helly ah

https://i.imgur.com/xgCCLEz.png

[celticdragongod]

Here is mine:

80212

[HaroldAngel]

Which am I closer to ? Celtic or Germanic?

https://mediasvc.ancestry.com/v2/image/namespaces/1093/media/a3e12624-90dc-4ad3-8231-d417f30408f6.jpg?client=Trees&imageQuality=hq&maxWidth=1349&maxHeight=626

[HaroldAngel]

Here is mine:

80212

You are so Celtic

[celticdragongod]

You are so Celtic

LOL True!

[J. Ketch]

Anybody else had this done yet?

https://i.postimg.cc/MKVGt42v/140819.png

[J. Ketch]

The great thing about this PCA is that you can see how modern Norwegians are significantly pulled towards Ireland/Scotland, and that England was already removed from the modern Insular Celtic cluster before the Roman & Saxon era, towards Continental Celts.

[JamesBond007]

Anybody else had this done yet?

https://i.postimg.cc/MKVGt42v/140819.png

Hello, Broham, I new here and this is my first post. Thanks , for making the colored versions of the PCA because before it was a cluster f*ck . Here is mine :

https://i.postimg.cc/tgJwx27q/Celto-Germanic-PCA.png

I think I fall within the English bell shape but I can't tell if I overlap with anything else like Norwegian or come close to anything else like that. If you could tell me or put me on a colored map I would appreciate it. I tried the PAST program but I am not educated enough in statistics and spreadsheets to do it :

-0.0216 0.0015 0.0124 -0.0095 -0.0004 0.0079 0.0014 -0.0064 -0.0076 -0.0012 0.0003 0.0034 0.0036 0.0006 0.0043 -0.0029 0.0026 0.0015 -0.0034 0 0.0005 0.0026 0.0015 -0.0034 -0.0034

[J. Ketch]

Hello, Broham, I new here and this is my first post. Thanks , for making the colored versions of the PCA because before it was a cluster f*ck . Here is mine :

https://i.postimg.cc/tgJwx27q/Celto-Germanic-PCA.png

I think I fall within the English bell shape but I can't tell if I overlap with anything else like Norwegian or come close to anything else like that. If you could tell me or put me on a colored map I would appreciate it. I tried the PAST program but I am not educated enough in statistics and spreadsheets to do it :

-0.0216 0.0015 0.0124 -0.0095 -0.0004 0.0079 0.0014 -0.0064 -0.0076 -0.0012 0.0003 0.0034 0.0036 0.0006 0.0043 -0.0029 0.0026 0.0015 -0.0034 0 0.0005 0.0026 0.0015 -0.0034 -0.0034
Here you go. You fall within the English (dark red), North Dutch and England Roman clusters, although one of the England Roman samples from York was half Germanic, so otherwise you probably wouldn't. You fall just outside the Irish, Scottish, German (purple), Norwegian (crimson) and other Dutch clusters.
https://i.postimg.cc/rFfW4BdP/jb007.png
What's your ancestry?

[JamesBond007]

Here you go. You fall within the English (dark red), North Dutch and England Roman clusters, although one of the England Roman samples from York was half Germanic, so otherwise you probably wouldn't. You fall just outside the Irish, Scottish, German (purple), Norwegian (crimson) and other Dutch clusters.
https://i.postimg.cc/rFfW4BdP/jb007.png
What's your ancestry?

Ancestry ? I dunno if one ever knows for sure but I would say Irish, English and Germanic from Alsace-Lorraine but probably Scottish in there somewhere too but who knows ? Anyway, thanks a lot. About that English_Roman sample I cluster pretty closely with an ancient Celto-Germanic gladiator from York England.

[Calpurnius]

I've tried running the same with the newest G25 data and using ggplot2 in R to get a decent plot. Still not easy to get a decent one. Germans and Austrians are truly all around. More or less corresponds though. Here's a "zoomed" look excluding southmost samples and Slavic related ones. Could probably still work around a more zoomed PCA focused specifically on NW Europe.
https://i.imgur.com/Ij9AXFs.png