Every man in Spain was wiped out 4500 years ago by hostile invaders

[Token]

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2180923-every-man-in-spain-was-wiped-out-4500-years-ago-by-hostile-invaders/

The article is private, but apparently a new and exciting genetic paper on Iberia is coming out soon. Below the Yamnaya skull, it's written 'Yamnaya invaders took over the Iberian peninsula 4500 years ago'. Kinda dramatic if you ask me.

[Token]

'A genetic analysis has revealed that, about 4500 years ago, part of southern Europe was conquered from the east. In what is now Spain and Portugal, the local male line vanished almost overnight, and males from outside became the only ones to leave descendants.'

[Token]

I've found the full article:

There goes the neighborhood. A study has suggested that Spanish males were completely wiped out by the arrival of a new culture during the Bronze Age.

As reported by New Scientist, and presented at the New Scientist Live event in London last weekend, researchers have been studying the DNA of people that lived in Europe and Asia several thousand years ago.

The latest results, presented by David Reich of the Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts, concern the arrival of a group of people in Europe known as the Yamnaya. With the newly invented wheel and domesticated horses, they were able to expand like few others.

“These people spread over a vast territory from Mongolia to Hungary and into Europe, and are the single primary most important contributors to Europeans today,” said Reich.

About 4,500 years ago they arrived in Britain, replacing 90 percent of the gene pool, possibly as a result of the diseases they brought and climate change. But on the Iberian Peninsula, something more dramatic took place.

It appears there was some sort of “violent conquest”, notes New Scientist, where local males were either killed or enslaved and the females claimed by the Yamnaya. This is evidenced by a “complete Y-chromosome replacement,” according to Reich. In other words, Spanish men disappeared completely from the gene pool.

Other research has also highlighted the dramatic shifts in population as a result of the Yamnaya arriving. It’s thought that they replaced half of Europe’s genetic ancestry within a few hundred years, with a study last year suggesting 10 men for every one woman migrated into Europe as part of the group – an “extreme” ratio.

The Yamnaya were also likely responsible for the spread of Indo-European languages in Western Europe, which explains why they’re spoken so far from Asia. Much of their practices are thought to have been ingrained into European culture, too.

While we’ve known for a while the impact the Yamnaya had on Europe, this latest research from Reich and his colleagues highlights just how large that change was. And for the men of Spain, it was a change that saw them completely wiped off the map.

https://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/spanish-men-were-completely-wiped-out-by-the-arrival-of-a-new-tribe-4000-years-ago/

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

The Yamnaya were also likely responsible for the spread of Indo-European languages in Western Europe, which explains why they’re spoken so far from Asia. Much of their practices are thought to have been ingrained into European culture, too.



Interestingly enough most pre-Roman Iberian languages were not Indo-European. The Basque language is a good example.

[Leto]

I think those weren't exactly the Yamnaya. By 2,500 BC they already ceased to exist.

[Token]

I think those weren't exactly the Yamnaya. By 2,500 BC they already ceased to exist.

Yep, it was probably the Beakers.

[Damião de Góis]

Is this about the spread of R1b? I fear this study will be as dumb as that one that measured jewish and moorish influence in Iberia by counting non-R1b haplogroups...

[Dick]

Interestingly enough most pre-Roman Iberian languages were not Indo-European. The Basque language is a good example.

Basques are mostly R1b now. La Brana was C for example.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Basques are mostly R1b now. La Brana was C for example.

Yeah but my point is that Iberians are one of the few groups in Europe that still preserve a language older than those invasions, so they didn't wipe out everything. To be honest I don't get the point of the study, we know that Yamnaya changed at least 50% of the European genepool, apparently 90% in Britain according to the study and the Iberian Peninsula wasn't much different.

[Token]

Yeah but my point is that Iberians are one of the few groups in Europe that still preserve a language older than those invasions, so they didn't wipe out everything. To be honest I don't get the point of the study, we know that Yamnaya changed at least 50% of the European genepool, apparently 90% in Britain according to the study and the Iberian Peninsula wasn't much different.

90% replacement on Britain was intermediated by the Beakers, who were not more than 55% Yamnaya. Modern-day British are around 50% Yamnaya and Iberians ~30%.

[Token]

Is this about the spread of R1b? I fear this study will be as dumb as that one that measured jewish and moorish influence in Iberia by counting non-R1b haplogroups...

This is a genome-wide study.

[CommonSense]

This would explain why R1b is so prevalent in the peninsula, even among the Basques.

[Cristiano viejo]

I think Iberia is the most fascinating area in the world. They make dozens of studies every year about us.

[Token]

I think Iberia is the most fascinating area in the world. They make dozens of studies every year about us.

Actually it is one of the least studied countries of Europe, but recently the origins of Basque language and the survival of non Indo-European languages in the peninsula until historical period became very relevant for the Indo-European discussion, and this attracted academic attention.

[Cristiano viejo]

Actually it is one of the least studied countries of Europe, but recently the origins of Basque language and the survival of non Indo-European languages in the peninsula until historical period became very relevant for the Indo-European discussion, and this attracted academic attention.

Dont make me laugh. Where are the studies about Estonians, Croatians, Irish, Greeks, Finnish (interesting people to study IMO), Czechs, etc??
For every study of them you have 4 about Iberians.

[Token]

Dont make me laugh. Where are the studies about Estonians, Croatians, Irish, Greeks, Finnish (interesting people to study IMO), Czechs, etc??
For every study of them you have 4 about Iberians.
Irish together with the British are the most studied people on Europe. Estonians and Finnish come after. Balkans need more attention, but Mathieson et al was a epic genome-wide study and entirely focused on them, not to cite the Mycenaean paper. Czechs and others Eastern Europeans, together with Iberians and Italians are the most under-studied. There is only 2 genome-wide papers on Iberia if i remember correctly, the Bell Beaker and the North African paper.

[de Burgh II]

As you said before, probably with a peculiar kind of Beakers (unrelated to Central European Bell-Beakers) that brought and replaced native C*/I* mesolithic y-dna lineages.

So its probably not too far from the truth:

Morata et al., 2017;


Haplogroup R1b-M269 comprises most Western European Y chromosomes; of its main branches, R1b-DF27 is by far the least known, and it appears to be highly prevalent only in Iberia. We have genotyped 1072 R1b-DF27 chromosomes for six additional SNPs and 17 Y-STRs in population samples from Spain, Portugal and France in order to further characterize this lineage and, in particular, to ascertain the time and place where it originated, as well as its subsequent dynamics. We found that R1b-DF27 is present in frequencies ~40% in Iberian populations and up to 70% in Basques, but it drops quickly to 6–20% in France. Overall, the age of R1b-DF27 is estimated at ~4,200 years ago, at the transition between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age, when the Y chromosome landscape of W Europe was thoroughly remodeled. In spite of its high frequency in Basques, Y-STR internal diversity of R1b-DF27 is lower there, and results in more recent age estimates; NE Iberia is the most likely place of origin of DF27. Subhaplogroup frequencies within R1b-DF27 are geographically structured, and show domains that are reminiscent of the pre-Roman Celtic/Iberian division, or of the medieval Christian kingdoms. [...]

Although it contains ~1% of the genome length in a human male cell, the lack of recombination along most of the Y chromosome makes constructing phylogenies for genetic variation relatively easy. Coupled with a robust geographic differentiation, this trait has provided a comprehensive phylogeography of Y chromosome haplotypes (usually referred to as haplogroups), that has been thoroughly characterized. Thus, the origin, dispersal, and geographic spread of many haplogroups are known. Moreover, both the genotyping of fast-mutating short tandem repeats (STRs) in the non-recombining region of the Y chromosome (NRY), and the recent availability of ascertainment-bias-free whole sequences of the NRY have reliably added a temporal scale to the deployment of the Y-chromosome diversity. One of the most salient features of the recent evolutionary history of human Y chromosomes is that it seems to have happened in bursts, with haplogroups rising to high frequency in the wake of major lifestyle shifts and technological innovations such as the advent of the Neolithic or the recently acknowledged demographic upheaval caused by the Bronze Age in Europe1, 2.

The most frequent Y-chromosome haplogroup in W Europe is R1b-M269, with frequencies ranging from 41% (Germany) to 83% (Ireland)3. Precisely, the higher frequency of this haplogroup in W Europe rather than in E Europe or W Asia led previous authors to believe it had a post-glacial Palaeolithic origin4, 5; however, a larger STR variance in SE European and W Asian R1b-M269 chromosomes and direct TMRCA dating pointed to R1b-M269 having surfed the Neolithic wave of advance3, 6, the evidence for which other authors did not find conclusive7. Finally, direct dating from NRY sequence variation puts the origin of R1b-M269 in the Early Bronze Age, ~4500 years ago (ya)1, 8, consistent with the growing ancient DNA record, where a surge in R1b-M269 is indeed seen at that time2, 9. Note, though, that R1b-M415, a branch ancestral to R1b-M269, was found as early as 14,000 ya in Italy10 and 7,000 ya in Spain2. Moreover, lack of structure of STR variation within R1b-M26911, 12 points also to an explosive growth.

The most important branches of R1b-M269 are R1b-U106, particularly frequent in the Low Countries and NW Germany3, 13, and R1b-S116 (also known as R1b-P312), which is common throughout W Europe3. The latter trifurcates in turn into U152 (frequent in N Italy and Switzerland13), L21 (also known as M529, abundant in the British Isles7), and DF27 (Fig. 1; Supplementary Figure 1). DF27 was first discovered by citizen scientists14 and, although among the burgeoning amateur genetic genealogy it is known to be frequent in Iberian populations and their overseas offshoots, few academic publications have been devoted to it. It was found in the 1000 Genome Project populations at a frequency of 49% in Iberians, 6% in Tuscans, 7% in British, and it was absent elsewhere except for admixed populations in the Americas: Colombia (40%), Puerto Rico (36%), Mexico (10%), Perú (8%), African-Americans (4%) and Afro-Caribbeans (2%)14, 15. It was first genotyped specifically in a few Iberian populations, Brittany and Ireland as part of a study on R1b-S11616, which indeed confirmed that R1b-DF27 is present at frequencies >40% in Spain and Portugal. Subsequently, 12 SNPs within DF27 were genotyped in four N Spanish populations17, confirming its high frequency and hinting at some substructure within the Iberian Peninsula. As for its presence elsewhere, the frequency of R1b-S116 (xL21, U152) can be used as an upper bound for the frequency of R1b-DF27. R1b-S116 (x L21, U152) was found at frequencies 0–10% in Germany3, 18, 7% in the Netherlands3, 8–12% in Flanders19, 6–12% in Switzerland3, and 1–12% in Italy3, 20 [...]

https://media.springernature.com/m685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-07710-x/MediaObjects/41598_2017_7710_Fig1_HTML.jpg
Simplified phylogenetic tree of the R1b-M269 haplogroup. SNPs in italics were not analyzed in this manuscript.

Over one thousand individuals carrying DF27 were typed for six additional SNPs (Table 1, Fig. 1) and 17 Y-STRs. DF27 itself was found at frequencies 0.3–0.5 in Iberia (with a mean of 0.42), with the notable exception of native Basques, where it reached 0.74 (for this and all subsequent frequency values, see Fig. 2 and Supplementary Table 1). In France, it dropped to a range of 0.06–0.20 and a mean of 0.11. Elsewhere, it was 0.15 in Britain (but <0.01 in Ireland) and 0.08 in Tuscany. Most (50–100%, with a proportion that dropped from East to West) DF27 Y chromosomes were also derived for Z195; thus, the highest frequencies of Z195 (0.29–0.41) were reached both in the Basque Country and in E Iberia (Catalonia, Valencia), and it becomes as rare in Portugal as it is in France. Conversely, the highest frequencies of R1b-DF27* (xZ195) are found in Native Basques and Western Iberian populations such as Asturias, Portugal and Galicia, which may harbor yet unknown branches of R1b-DF27. In turn, Z195 splits into two branches, namely L176.2 and Z220 (Fig. 1). Note that L176 is a recurrent mutation that defines two clades in the Y phylogeny: L176.1 within R1a, and L176.2 under R1b-DF27; throughout this manuscript, we will refer exclusively to the latter. L176.2 and Z220 peak, respectively, in E Iberia and the Basque Country. L176.2 is further subdivided into M167 (SRY2627, ref. 21), with the highest frequencies in Catalonia and the lands settled from Catalonia in the 13th century (Valencia, the Balearics). This marker had been typed in a number of Iberian and other European populations4, 18,19,20, 22,23,24,25, and the overall frequency pattern found (Supplementary Figure 1) confirms a distribution centred in the eastern half of Iberia, although with higher frequencies (up to 0.16) in the upper Ebro river valley and the Pyrenees. As mentioned above, Z220 is most frequent in the Basque Country (0.28), and a similar pattern is found for its successive nested clades, namely Z278 and M153. For the latter, available additional data22, 23, 25 showed it confined to the Iberian Peninsula, with frequencies 0.06–0.40 among Basque subpopulations, but rarely above 0.01 elsewhere (Supplementary Figure 1).

https://media.springernature.com/lw900/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-07710-x/MediaObjects/41598_2017_7710_Fig2_HTML.jpg
Contour maps of the derived allele frequencies of the SNPs analyzed in this manuscript. Population abbreviations as in Table 1. Maps were drawn with SURFER v. 12 (Golden Software, Golden CO, USA).

Haplogroup ages can also be estimated within each population, although they should be interpreted with caution (see Discussion). For the whole of DF27, (Table 3), the highest estimate was in Aragon (4530 ± 700 ya), and the lowest in France (3430 ± 520 ya); it was 3930 ± 310 ya in Basques. Z195 was apparently oldest in Catalonia (4580 ± 240 ya), and with France (3450 ± 269 ya) and the Basques (3260 ± 198 ya) having lower estimates. On the contrary, in the Z220 branch, the oldest estimates appear in North-Central Spain (3720 ± 313 ya for Z220, 3420 ± 349 ya for Z278). The Basques always produce lower estimates, even for M153, which is almost absent elsewhere. [...]

We have characterized the geographical distribution and phylogenetic structure of haplogroup R1b-DF27 in W. Europe, particularly in Iberia, where it reaches its highest frequencies (40–70%). The age of this haplogroup appears clear: with independent samples (our samples vs. the 1000 genome project dataset) and independent methods (variation in 15 STRs vs. whole Y-chromosome sequences), the age of R1b-DF27 is firmly grounded around 4000–4500 ya, which coincides with the population upheaval in W. Europe at the transition between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age2, 9. Before this period, R1b-M269 was rare in the ancient DNA record, and during it the current frequencies were rapidly reached2, 9, 10. It is also one of the haplogroups (along with its daughter clades, R1b-U106 and R1b-S116) with a sequence structure that shows signs of a population explosion or burst1. STR diversity in our dataset is much more compatible with population growth than with stationarity, as shown by the ABC results, but, contrary to other haplogroups such as the whole of R1b-S116, G2a, I2 or J2a, the start of this growth is closer to the TMRCA of the haplogroup. Although the median time for the start of the expansion is older in R1b-DF27 than in other haplogroups, and could suggest the action of a different demographic process, all HPD intervals broadly overlap, and thus, a common demographic history may have affected the whole of the Y chromosome diversity in Iberia. The HPD intervals encompass a broad timeframe, and could reflect the post-Neolithic population expansions from the Bronze Age to the Roman Empire28.

While when R1b-DF27 appeared seems clear, where it originated may be more difficult to pinpoint. If we extrapolated directly from haplogroup frequencies, then R1b-DF27 would have originated in the Basque Country; however, for R1b-DF27 and most of its subhaplogroups, internal diversity measures and age estimates are lower in Basques than in any other population. Then, the high frequencies of R1b-DF27 among Basques could be better explained by drift rather than by a local origin (except for the case of M153; see below), which could also have decreased the internal diversity of R1b-DF27 among Basques. An origin of R1b-DF27 outside the Iberian Peninsula could also be contemplated, and could mirror the external origin of R1b-M269, even if it reaches there its highest frequencies. However, the search for an external origin would be limited to France and Great Britain; R1b-DF27 seems to be rare or absent elsewhere: Y-STR data are available only for France, and point to a lower diversity and more recent ages than in Iberia (Table 3). Unlike in Basques, drift in a traditionally closed population seems an unlikely explanation for this pattern, and therefore, it does not seem probable that R1b-DF27 originated in France. Then, a local origin in Iberia seems the most plausible hypothesis. Within Iberia, Aragon shows the highest diversity and age estimates for R1b-DF27, Z195, and the L176.2 branch, although, given the small sample size, any conclusion should be taken cautiously. On the contrary, Z220 and Z278 are estimated to be older in North Central Spain (N Castile, Cantabria and Asturias). Finally, M153 is almost restricted to the Basque Country: it is rarely present at frequencies >1% elsewhere in Spain (although see the cases of Alacant, Andalusia and Madrid, Suppl. Table 1), and it was found at higher frequencies (10–17%) in several Basque regions25; a local origin seems plausible, but, given the scarcity of M153 chromosomes outside of the Basque Country, the diversity and age values cannot be compared.

Within its range, R1b-DF27 shows same geographical differentiation: Western Iberia (particularly, Asturias and Portugal), with low frequencies of R1b-Z195 derived chromosomes and relatively high values of R1b-DF27* (xZ195); North Central Spain is characterized by relatively high frequencies of the Z220 branch compared to the L176.2 branch; the latter is more abundant in Eastern Iberia. Taken together, these observations seem to match the East-West patterning that has occurred at least twice in the history of Iberia: i) in pre-Roman times, with Celtic-speaking peoples occupying the center and west of the Iberian Peninsula, while the non-Indoeuropean eponymous Iberians settled the Mediterranean coast and hinterland; and ii) in the Middle Ages, when Christian kingdoms in the North expanded gradually southwards and occupied territories held by Muslim fiefs.
The relevance and possible applications of R1b-DF27

Although R1b-DF27 as a whole has remained relatively obscure in the academic literature, two of the SNPs it contains, namely M167 (SRY2627) and M153 have accrued quite a number of studies. Thus, excluding this paper, M153 has been typed in 42 populations, for a total of 3,117 samples22, 23, 25, 29, 30; M167 has been typed in at least 113 populations and 10,379 individuals4, 18,19,20, 22,23,24,25, 29,30,31. It is not obvious then why both markers are absent from Y-phylotree (http://www.phylotree.org/Y/tree/index.htm, ref. 32), which is the current academic Y-chromosome haplogroup reference tree and which contains within DF27 a number of much more obscure SNPs.

Potentially, a SNP with relatively high frequencies in Iberian and Iberian-derived populations and rarer elsewhere could be applied in a forensic genetics setting to infer the biogeographic origin of an unknown contributor to a crime scene33. However, neither the specificity nor the sensitivity of such an application would guarantee significant investigative leads in most cases. When compared to the 1000 genomes CEU sample of European-Americans15, R1b-DF27 is just 4.19 times more frequent in Iberians than in CEU, a ratio that raises to 6.82 for R1b-Z220 (which, though, has a frequency of only 13.9% in Iberians). Probably, other types of evidence of the involvement of a person of interest of Iberian descent would be needed to justify tying R1b-DF27.

R1b-DF27 may also be used to trace migratory events involving Spanish or Portuguese men, particularly outside of Western Europe; a clear example can be seen the Latin American populations (see the Introduction section), where R1b-DF27 seems to correlate with the amount of male-mediated Spanish admixture: it is clearly less frequent in the populations with a stronger Native American component, such as Mexico and Peru. Even within Europe, Y haplogroup frequencies have been used to detect short-range migration events, such as that from Northern France to Flanders34. Thus, the traces of the medieval expansion of the Aragon kingdom towards the Mediterranean in the 14th–15th centuries, or the Castilian occupation of Flanders in the 17th century may be traced through the male lineages, R1b-DF27 in particular.

Finally, the Y chromosome in often studied in connection with surnames, since the latter are also often transmitted through the male line35. For that, Y-STR haplotypes are analyzed, and, given the Y-STR mutation rates, similarity in Y-STR haplotypes between men sharing the same surname is taken as indicative of a shared genealogical origin36, 37. However, diversity in Y-STR haplotypes within the R1b-M269 branch is rather small11, 12, and the sole use of Y-STRs may result in homoplasy, rather than shred origin, causing Y-STR haplotype convergence. Thus, particularly within Iberia, R1b-DF27 should be used when trying to ascertain the founding events of surnames. No SNP deeper than R1b-M269 was typed in a survey of Spanish surnames38, while some SNPs in the R1b-DF27 branch (Z195, Z220, Z278, M153 and M167) were used in a similar study27.

Although we have contributed to the understanding of the phylogeography of R1b-DF27, which makes up a dominant fraction of Iberian (and Latin American) Y chromosomes, better tools and designs would be needed to solve some of the issues we discussed above. In particular, we genotyped pre-ascertained SNPs, and a global characterization of the whole sequence diversity of this haplogroup would allow more precise statistical analyses to be run. Also, a more comprehensive sampling scheme, including more information from Atlantic Iberia, would be desirable to obtain a more accurate picture of this haplogroup. [...]

Full article: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x

[Peterski]

Not every single one, let's not exaggerate.

[Ibericus]

well the article is poorly written. Yes, there was a male Y-DNA replacement (as in most of Western EUrope) when R1b became the dominant, but no directly by Yamnaya people coming into Iberia, but Central-European Bronze Age/Iron Age peoples (Bell Beakers, Urnfield, Celts,) who carried the autosomal steppe and R1b.

[FilhoV]

Like i said in the other thread seems that the oldest groups were G and I and despite being replaced by R1B those haplogroups still exist not to mention the Basque language in its self is Proto-Iberian to begin with and survives to this day.

[Silver Lining]

Technically, doesn't this make original Iberians a mixture of lazy Med women and rape-thirsty Northern/Central Europeans? :confused:

So essentially, North and Central European are the decent ones, while their foul, raping brothers all went South.

Those native Iberian men were probably not even killed, they probably ran away scared and hid, as they always do (see: world war 2).

Makes you think.

[Token]

Technically, doesn't this make original Iberians a mixture of lazy Med women and rape-thirsty Northern/Central Europeans? :confused:

Yeah, basically :laugh:

[Imperator Biff]

I always wondered how R1b-L21 was present in Iberia alongside its brother subclade DF27.
At least now we know lmao. I just hope it wasn’t entirely through rape but no doubt there was a lot of that going on.

[Token]

I always wondered how R1b-L21 was present in Iberia alongside its brother subclade DF27.
At least now we know lmao. I just hope it wasn’t entirely through rape but no doubt there was a lot of that going on.

In Ireland there was no rape, they decided to wipe out the women too :laugh:

[Bellbeaking]

Technically, doesn't this make original Iberians a mixture of lazy Med women and rape-thirsty Northern/Central Europeans? :confused:

So essentially, North and Central European are the decent ones, while their foul, raping brothers all went South.

Those native Iberian men were probably not even killed, they probably ran away scared and hid, as they always do (see: world war 2).

Makes you think.

This is just naughty, then the spanish would go on to replace the Amerindians on the paternal side, and the british replaced the native americans on both sides !!!!


Both following in the footsteps of their ancestors!

[Grace O'Malley]

I always wondered how R1b-L21 was present in Iberia alongside its brother subclade DF27.
At least now we know lmao. I just hope it wasn’t entirely through rape but no doubt there was a lot of that going on.

L21 is not exactly a brother clade but more like an Uncle second removed from DF27. Interestingly DF27 and U152 are brother clades. L21 looks a bit older. I wonder whether this distinction will help track Beaker movements in the future? It would be good if finally all these puzzles will eventually be put into place. Of course it would be a major help if we could find where L51 started.

https://images.gr-assets.com/photos/1460663756p8/1421409.jpg

[Sebastianus Rex]

Technically, doesn't this make original Iberians a mixture of lazy Med women and rape-thirsty Northern/Central Europeans? :confused:

So essentially, North and Central European are the decent ones, while their foul, raping brothers all went South.

Those native Iberian men were probably not even killed, they probably ran away scared and hid, as they always do (see: world war 2).

Makes you think.

Just like Germanics nowadays are being scared off and replaced by Menas...with the difference that their replacement will be much faster.

Tough luck I guess, Germany still had plenty of that good old norse rapist blood untill it vanished away on the frozen Russian Front...now it's gone. :(

[AphroditeWorshiper]

Like i said in the other thread seems that the oldest groups were G and I and despite being replaced by R1B those haplogroups still exist not to mention the Basque language in its self is Proto-Iberian to begin with and survives to this day.

Original Iberians was C and I

The Neolithic farmers was really small compared to Central, Italy and Balkans on Iberia

these oldest Iberians was the ethnic groups of Europe with the highest WHG ancestry, maybe with France and Britain too(but they had some EHG too)

[AphroditeWorshiper]

Also these ancient Iberians had high Neanderthal ancestry, then Beakers and Celts came in invasion

[Bellbeaking]

https://i.imgur.com/1z5ANY7.png

[Hyoga7]

L21 is not exactly a brother clade but more like an Uncle second removed from DF27. Interestingly DF27 and U152 are brother clades. L21 looks a bit older. I wonder whether this distinction will help track Beaker movements in the future? It would be good if finally all these puzzles will eventually be put into place. Of course it would be a major help if we could find where L51 started.

https://images.gr-assets.com/photos/1460663756p8/1421409.jpg

23andme says: "You share a paternal-line ancestor with Niall of the Nine Hostages."
I am really curious to know how it ended up in Northern Portugal!

[Grace O'Malley]

23andme says: "You share a paternal-line ancestor with Niall of the Nine Hostages."
I am really curious to know how it ended up in Northern Portugal!

It didn't. 23andMe has that rubbish on for everyone that is M269 and they aren't even L21 let alone M222. Just completely false and misleading. M269 would be millions of men and it is only M222 that is the Niall haplotype. There is no rationale for the putting Niall as a paternal-line ancestor for all M269 men. They could put you as a paternal ancestor of every M269 as well. :) If you look where M222 is it is very far down the tree under L21. At least you are L21 but you aren't M222 so Niall's subclade is much further down the L21 tree.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/the-genetic-imprint-of-niall-of-the-nine-hostages-1.1771373

It was the Ui Neill (Niall's tribe) and their kindred the Connachta confederation that spread M222 in certain parts of Ireland. M222 most likely started in Scotland or Northern England and is around 1,400 years old.

If you have the opportunity you should try to find out what subclade you are under L21 and this will get you closer to your ancestral origins.

[Imperator Biff]

It was the Ui Neill (Niall's tribe) and their kindred the Connachta confederation that spread M222 in certain parts of Ireland. M222 most likely started in Scotland or Northern England and is around 1,400 years old.
According to yfull the TMRCA of R1b-M222 is around 2000 years ago. I think it most likely speciated from NW Ireland. I believe the most likely progenitor is probably Conn of the hundred battles and not Niall.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M222/

[Westbrook]

It would help to explain my nearly insatiable, carnal, constant urge to fight and spread my genes.
Technically, doesn't this make original Iberians a mixture of lazy Med women and rape-thirsty Northern/Central Europeans? :confused:

So essentially, North and Central European are the decent ones, while their foul, raping brothers all went South.

Those native Iberian men were probably not even killed, they probably ran away scared and hid, as they always do (see: world war 2).

Makes you think.

[Grace O'Malley]

According to yfull the TMRCA of R1b-M222 is around 2000 years ago. I think it most likely speciated from NW Ireland. I believe the most likely progenitor is probably Conn of the hundred battles and not Niall.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M222/

I think it has been found to be older in Britain but I'd need to go and look around for the information. I've read information in the past so I'll see if I can find some link. I think Conn was an ancestor of both the Connachta and Niall so that would make sense.

[Morena]

This is pretty sad. It means that every male, from the smallest infant to the oldest man, was killed off. :(

[Bellbeaking]

This is pretty sad. It means that every male, from the smallest infant to the oldest man, was killed off. :(

i assume It also means that they bore sons who had sex with women alive prior to the conquest; Thats the only way you get the 40-60 ratio as far as i can tell, they must have kept female children around for later usage.

[Morena]

i assume It also means that they bore sons who had sex with women alive prior to the conquest; Thats the only way you get the 40-60 ratio as far as i can tell, they must have kept female children around for later usage.

Awful. Just awful. I'm glad I dad's y haplogroup has nothing to do with that. :(

[Grace O'Malley]

Awful. Just awful. I'm glad I dad's y haplogroup has nothing to do with that. :(

I think it's most likely an exaggeration but when the study comes out it will be clearer. There was no doubt some conquest involved. It's the same scenario with what happened in South American with Iberian men. That was mostly female Native Americans and Iberian men.

[Autrigón]

Technically, doesn't this make original Iberians a mixture of lazy Med women and rape-thirsty Northern/Central Europeans? :confused:

So essentially, North and Central European are the decent ones, while their foul, raping brothers all went South.

Those native Iberian men were probably not even killed, they probably ran away scared and hid, as they always do (see: world war 2).

Makes you think.During history I haven't seen a single Spaniard running away scared in a battle. You can't conquest half of the fucking planet earth with scared soldiers.

Your friend little Adolf knew it and for that he was always supplicating Spain to join Nazi Germany in WWII, fortunately little Franco reject his offer (the only intelligent thing he did in his life).

Anyway read a little bit of the "Die Spanische Blaue Division" in the Russian front.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Every man ? That's innacurate. Spain isn't 100% R1b.

[Bellbeaking]

Every man ? That's innacurate. Spain isn't 100% R1b.

neither was every beaker

[Grace O'Malley]

neither was every beaker

That's news to me. I thought all Rhenish Bell Beakers were R1b?

[IncelSlayer]

Every man ? That's innacurate. Spain isn't 100% R1b.

That was 4500 years ago , there were plenty of migrations in Iberia since then.Basques, who are the "purest" Bell Beakers are almost entirely R1b...

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

That was 4500 years ago , there were plenty of migrations in Iberia since then.Basques, who are the "purest" Bell Beakers are almost entirely R1b...

It's strange how they have such high R1b and lot of Beaker genetics while speaking pre-IE language.

[Leto]

It's strange how they have such high R1b and lot of Beaker genetics while speaking pre-IE language.
They probably managed to assimilate some Beakers up in the mountains.

[Morena]

I think it's most likely an exaggeration but when the study comes out it will be clearer. There was no doubt some conquest involved. It's the same scenario with what happened in South American with Iberian men. That was mostly female Native Americans and Iberian men.

I expect something like what happened in Lat. Am, but we didn't go around killing all male infants, baby boys, older men, etc. This is just barbaric to the extreme.

[Grace O'Malley]

Basques still cluster separately than everyone else. I think their R1b came about later from neighbouring populations.

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/112/38/11917/F1.large.jpg

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2015/09/02/1509851112.full.pdf?with-ds=yes

[Grace O'Malley]

I expect something like what happened in Lat. Am, but we didn't go around killing all male infants, baby boys, older men, etc. This is just barbaric to the extreme.

I don't know where it says that happened OsricPearl. The headline was in a newspaper so most likely sensationalised. In Ireland and Britain for example the farmer population had already declined due to factors like climate change, disease etc. Also what happens is that the top men get more females and have more a chance to procreate and have surviving sons so ydna can change quite quickly and dominate an area in a few hundred years. There are plenty of examples of this happening. Lots of ydna is lost as men on the lower rungs don't get the women and so can't pass on their dna as much as a more powerful Chieftain. This is what happened in Ireland with M222 for example. Powerful clans like the Ui Neill and the Connachta spread their dna. The same thing happened with Genghis Khan.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

I expect something like what happened in Lat. Am, but we didn't go around killing all male infants, baby boys, older men, etc. This is just barbaric to the extreme.

There is no historical record and there will never be one regarding this period of our history so we can only speculate what happened. War, new diseases brought by the Indo-Europeans, progressive assimilation and replacement, who knows. Every person descends from some Y-DNA carrier that at one point and time in history replaced someone else's Y-DNA, it is not like this is exclusive to Iberia. You don't have to feel sorry about it because we descend from this carriers, after all if humankind hadn't taken this course you and I wouldn't be here today.

[Imperator Biff]

Basques still cluster separately than everyone else. I think their R1b came about later from neighbouring populations.

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/112/38/11917/F1.large.jpg

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2015/09/02/1509851112.full.pdf?with-ds=yes
They actually have amongst the least steppe blood of all Iberians despite the amount of R1b that they have. The reason being due to their geography isolating them from later migrations. Ntm they lack Moroccan dna and have a substantial amount more WHG unlike other Iberians so that would explain why they drift away from them. The beakers were a metallurgical warrior elite whom replaced around 40% of the chalcolithic genepool.

[Cristiano viejo]

They actually have amongst the least steppe blood of all Iberians despite the amount of R1b that they have. The reason being due to their geography isolating them from later migrations. Ntm they lack Moroccan dna and have a substantial amount more WHG unlike other Iberians so that would explain why they drift away from them. The beakers were a metallurgical warrior elite whom replaced around 40% of the chalcolithic genepool.

Other Iberians dont get "Morocan dna", what stupidity.

[Imperator Biff]

That was 4500 years ago , there were plenty of migrations in Iberia since then.Basques, who are the "purest" Bell Beakers are almost entirely R1b...
Phylogenetically yes.
Autosomally not so much. Basques are amongst the least BBC/CWC admixed of all Iberians. The mountainous Basque countryside isolated them from later population movements and as a result they retain the highest amount of preIE genetics (EEF+WHG) of all Iberians. They also lack North African ancestry other Iberians have.

[Imperator Biff]

Other Iberians dont get "Morocan dna", what stupidity.

There was a huge study done last year on this. Get with the times. It peaks in galicians.

[Cristiano viejo]

There was a huge study done last year on this. Get with the times. It peaks in galicians.

In Galicians... xD
Thanks for proving my point.

[Joso]

Every man was wiped out of Spain, that is why there is only women and "men" like Cristiano Viejo there hahaha

[Cristiano viejo]

Every man was wiped out of Spain, that is why there is only women and "men" like Cristiano Viejo there hahaha

You would kill your mulata mother to look like me, triracial chubby kid :heh:

[Joso]

You would kill your mulata mother to look like me, triracial chubby kid :heh:

Sorry but i am not Spanish to be sixracial( European+gypsy+negro+arab+north african+Jew). I am more white than all Spaniards

[Zuh]

Europeans have brought mass destruction everywhere they go for sure that is part of Euro history.

[Cristiano viejo]

Sorry but i am not Spanish to be sixracial( European+gypsy+negro+arab+north african+Jew). I am more white than all Spaniards

You descend of Iberians, stupid retard, and you are an ugly chubby triracial kid to who I dont augur too much future with women :laugh:

[Joso]

You descend of Iberians, stupid retard, and you are an ugly chubby triracial kid to who I dont augur too much future with women :laugh:

You don't even know anything about my origins. Anyways, most of the SSA latinos have came from Iberians, because of the Moor invasions of Iberia. pseudo-Amerindian genes in many latinos probably came from Iberia too( misread ANE).

[Latinus]

Europeans have brought mass destruction everywhere they go for sure that is part of Euro history.

Lol, without Euros you wouldn't exist. White people are the ones that care more about other races, even more than their own.

[Cristiano viejo]

You don't even know anything about my origins.
As good Brazilian, it is yourself who does not know anything about your origins :laugh2:


Anyways, most of the SSA latinos have came from Iberians, because of the Moor invasions of Iberia. pseudo-Amerindian genes in many latinos probably came from Iberia too( misread ANE).

lol, cool story, slavery has nothing to do.
You descend of slaves :smilie_auslachen:

[Borealis]

Yeah exactly it wasn't Yamnaya specifically as that would mean the steppe ancestry in Spain would be far greater than it is. It was Beakers who were already admixed with Early European farmers, who then mixed with the European farmers of Spain. Interesting...

[Borealis]

Europeans have brought mass destruction everywhere they go for sure that is part of Euro history.

The group of people referenced in this article(wrongly) called Yamnaya could not properly be described as European. However, the ones actually responsible for this population displacement(bell beakers) definitely were.

[Damião de Góis]

Phylogenetically yes.
Autosomally not so much. Basques are amongst the least BBC/CWC admixed of all Iberians. The mountainous Basque countryside isolated them from later population movements and as a result they retain the highest amount of preIE genetics (EEF+WHG) of all Iberians. They also lack North African ancestry other Iberians have.

Whatever isolated the basques, i don't think it was geography. There are more inaccessible places in the peninsula.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Iberian_Peninsula_scaled.png

[Leto]

Europeans have brought mass destruction everywhere they go for sure that is part of Euro history.
And why are you on this forum, you piece of sh*t? You live in the US, not in Mexico and that's a country founded by whites.

[Leto]

Lol, without Euros you wouldn't exist. White people are the ones that care more about other races, even more than their own.
Yeah, even the supposed 'racist' D.J. has said he wants even more immigrants, just legal ones, not illegal. LOL

[Zuh]

And why are you on this forum, you piece of sh*t? You live in the US, not in Mexico and that's a country founded by whites.

Lol what's with the insults? Looks like a hit a nerve. You may not like this but it's true you people are murders.

And for the record since you trying to be smart enough which you obviously are not every country in new world was created by "evil whites"

[Finnish Swede]

This is pretty sad. It means that every male, from the smallest infant to the oldest man, was killed off. :(

Nah. Just a typical mens' behavior ... in its greatest/purest form (in history).

And some are still saying that men are greater than women. LOL.

[Leto]

Lol what's with the insults? Looks like a hit a nerve. You may not like this but it's true you people are murders.

And for the record since you trying to be smart enough which you obviously are not every country in new world was created by "evil whites"
Sure. White people are know for creating the most liveable and peaceful countries and societies, you low IQ dummy. In other parts of the world people still lynch other people or use dung as fuel. :picard1:

[Vlatko Vukovic]

And some are still saying that men are greater than women. LOL.

Actually, that's true. At least in scientific field, and brain development (I speak generally, there are exceptions always).

[Zuh]

Sure. White people are know for creating the most liveable and peaceful countries and societies, you low IQ dummy. In other parts of the world people still lynch other people or use dung as fuel. :picard1:

Ha what's current Mexico's politician issues has anything to do with me? You are not smart enough to hold a mature debate please don't quote me again old man i don't want your blood pressure to rise up.

[Leto]

Ha what's current Mexico's politician issues has anything to do with me? You are not smart enough to hold a mature debate please don't quote me again old man i don't want your blood pressure to rise up.
Okay. Except I didn't even mention Mexico :rolleyes: It doesn't even matter where you are from - 'anti-whites' are basically the same everywhere. And by the way, nice try guessing my age - I'm turning 28 this year :D

[Finnish Swede]

Actually, that's true. At least in scientific field, and brain development (I speak generally, there are exceptions always).

I wonder...

After all what it is to being greater?

Is intelligent assassin a great human? Or intelligent terrorists? Not for me, but maybe so to some.

How about if you incl. being good humans .... to being greater?

[Zuh]

Okay. Except I didn't even mention Mexico :rolleyes: It doesn't even matter where you are from - 'anti-whites' are basically the same everywhere. And by the way, nice try guessing my age - I'm turning 28 this year :D

Lol I'm not anti white moron im proud of my European roots too I had more Spanish ancestors than mestizos in the last 100 years.


But doesn't removed the fact you Europeans are the people to blame for the destruction they caused in the 15th century.

[Rocinante]

Bell Beakers with high amount of yamnaya ancestry went to the iberian peninsula and change the iberian gene pool forever.