Why are Serbs less Slavic than Croats?

[Peterski]

Why do Serbs have on average more of Native Balkan ancestry than Croats?

Was it always like that, or is it the result of some relatively recent events?

[Peterski]

Did Serbs assimilate more Vlachs, did they mix more with Albanians/Greeks/Romanians, etc.?

[Moje ime]

Did Serbs assimilate more Vlachs, did they mix more with Albanians/Greeks/Romanians, etc.?

Assimilation of paleo-Balkan people happened 1500+ years ago, nothing recent.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Did Serbs assimilate more Vlachs, did they mix more with Albanians/Greeks/Romanians, etc.?

With Albanians not surely, since Albanian as ethnos still didn't exist in those times of Slavic migrations (as well not Serb or Croat), but mixed with Albanian ancestors? Could be.

[Jana]

Yes, they are less Slavic on average. I think it is due to the fact Serbs spread their Kingdom much deeper into Balkans than Croats
did, down to Aegan coast and assimilated more native people.
Charleston Coon noticed it 50 years before the discovery of population genetics:

The Serbs are darker in pigmentation than either the Slovenes or the Croatians; 45 per cent of eyes are pure brown (Martin #2-4), as against 20 per cent which are pure or nearly pure light. Over 55 per cent have black or dark brown hair, while light browns and blonds come to less than 10 per cent. The beards are, of course, often lighter than the head hair. The skin is brunet-white or light-brown in at least a third of the total. It is unlikely that the prevalence of brunet pigmentation among the Serbs came from a Slavic source, and as we shall presently see, the high incidence of dark eyes can hardly be called Dinaric. By elimination we must suppose that the Serbs, in their sojourn in northern Macedonia. accumulated a strong brunet tendency.

[Dick]

Obviously which is why we’re taller on average that northern slavics

[Mingle]

If you look at South Slavs and start with Slovenia and end with Bulgaria, you'll notice that the further east you go, the more the Slavic DNA progressively decreases. There is even a bit of a difference between western and eastern Serbs. So my guess is that Slavs migrated there from the western part of Central Europe and the number of Slavs that settled in Croatia was simply higher in quantity than those that settled further east.

[Peterski]

Obviously which is why we’re taller on average that northern slavics

I don't think there is a statistically significant difference:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?235339-Nutritional-correlates-of-male-height

Bosniaks should be shorter because they don't eat pork.


So my guess is that Slavs migrated there from the western part of Central Europe

Except they did not. At least not exclusively.

Slavs came into the Balkans from two directions - one group came from the east via Moldova, Romania and Bulgaria, another group from the north, from what is now Slovakia and Moravia. That group included ancestors of Croats (they came from the so called White Croatia), probably also a significant portion of ancestors of Slovenes, Bosniaks and Serbs; but not ancestors of Bulgarians and Macedonians.


With Albanians not surely, since Albanian as ethnos still didn't exist in those times of Slavic migrations (as well not Serb or Croat), but mixed with Albanian ancestors? Could be.

Aren't Albanians descended from Illyrians?

[Mingle]

^ Then the Slavs that came to Serbia from the east arrived in a smaller quantity than those that arrived from the west to Croatia and Slovenia.

[Mikula]

Bosniaks should be shorter because they don't eat pork.


Świńska teoria :)
https://img23.rajce.idnes.cz/d2303/12/12265/12265406_ac0aa7e6612241f3d0dce1bf91611561/images/u16841-216510_josef-lada-zabijacka-1942_blogshow.jpg

[Ülev]

Srbi i Poljaci su dva slovenska naroda koja su mnogo propatila iz slicnih razloga zbog toga sto nisu dali svoje nikome :rolleyes:

https://youtu.be/6pcHGo5DujA

[MiloshN]

Balkan is magic :)

[Peterski]

Świńska teoria :)
https://img23.rajce.idnes.cz/d2303/12/12265/12265406_ac0aa7e6612241f3d0dce1bf91611561/images/u16841-216510_josef-lada-zabijacka-1942_blogshow.jpg

Świńsko-pyrsko-mleczno-jajeczno-wołowa:

"Pork protein has the biggest additive effect, when combined with dairy proteins (r = 0.82; p < 0.001), followed by protein from eggs (r = 0.81) and potatoes (r = 0.81). The correlation reaches r = 0.84, when potatoes are added to dairy and pork. The highest r-value (r = 0.85) was achieved via the combination of proteins from dairy, pork, beef, eggs and potatoes (‘highly correlated proteins’). The strength of this relationship is visually impressive (Fig. 8). ‘Highly correlated proteins’ are also the strongest correlate of male height."

Maybe let's just call it anti-vegan theory.

[Bobby Martnen]

because Serbia is farther from the Slavic homeland, and Slavs don't like walking

[Peterski]

because Serbia is farther from the Slavic homeland

Slavic homeland was Kiev culture (Eastern Ukraine, Northern Ukraine, Southern Belarus, West-Central Russia), yellow color:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/East_Europe_Archaeological_Kievan-Chernyakhov.jpg

[Mikula]

Świńsko-pyrsko-mleczno-jajeczno-wołowa:

"Pork protein has the biggest additive effect, when combined with dairy proteins (r = 0.82; p < 0.001), followed by protein from eggs (r = 0.81) and potatoes (r = 0.81). The correlation reaches r = 0.84, when potatoes are added to dairy and pork. The highest r-value (r = 0.85) was achieved via the combination of proteins from dairy, pork, beef, eggs and potatoes (‘highly correlated proteins’). The strength of this relationship is visually impressive (Fig. 8). ‘Highly correlated proteins’ are also the strongest correlate of male height."

Maybe let's just call it anti-vegan theory.

Well, our grandparents or great-grandparents were eating a meat just once per a week, therefore todays generations are taller than the previous ones.
You can see it at old houses older than 100 years: look at its doors height.

[Mikula]

because Serbia is farther from the Slavic homeland, and Slavs don't like walking

Said by American :rofl:

[Peterski]

But Serbs are slightly less Slavic in terms of autosomal DNA.

What about Y-DNA, are Serbs more Slavic in terms of Y-DNA?

[Jana]

But Serbs are slightly less Slavic in terms of autosomal DNA.

What about Y-DNA, are Serbs more Slavic in terms of Y-DNA?

No, they have less I2a and less R1a than Croats
but I wonder why do you ask question to which you already know the answer

[MiloshN]

There is one answer, but I'm sure that a lot of them will not agree with that.

[Jackson78]

No, they have less I2a and less R1a than Croats
but I wonder why do you ask question to which you already know the answer

Srbija cela čini mi se ima veći procenat I2a od čitave Hrvatske (ne računajući ovde BiH Hrvate, već samo Hrvate iz Hrvatske). Na regionalnom nivou ja mislim da kod vas postoje veće oscilacije što se tiče procenata I2a nego kod nas. A procenti R1a vam svakako jesu veći nego naši, tu nema sumnje.

[Pribislav]

No, they have less I2a and less R1a than Croats
but I wonder why do you ask question to which you already know the answer

Croatians have more R1a in % than Serbs.
Serbs and Croatians have similar % of I2a, and same % of I2-PH908 both about 26%. In total number Serbs have more people which carry I2a and R1a.

Croatians who are I2-PH908 are croatized Serbs such as your paternal ancestors. :)

[Dalmatinac]

Since I'm not much into genetics, my question is: What haplogroups are considered to be native balkanic ones? E1b1b only? Or I2a1b too? I ask this because Croats share larger frequency of I2a1b than Serbs by at least few % according to various studies. Moreover, some ethnically croatian territories are record holders when it comes to the frequency of this haplogroup. For example, Croats of Herzegovina share about 71%, while Croats of Dalmatia about 65%, which is a frequency nowhere else to be seen in such a high values!

[Dalmatinac]

Srbija cela čini mi se ima veći procenat I2a od čitave Hrvatske (ne računajući ovde BiH Hrvate, već samo Hrvate iz Hrvatske). Na regionalnom nivou ja mislim da kod vas postoje veće oscilacije što se tiče procenata I2a nego kod nas. A procenti R1a vam svakako jesu veći nego naši, tu nema sumnje.

Nije točno. Prema Eupediji Hrvatska (bez bosanskih Hrvata) ima veću frekvenciju I2a1b od Srbije, mada razlika nije velika, mislim 37% naspram 33%. Uzorak je veoma velik tako da su mjerenja prilično precizna.

[Veneda]

...

[Pribislav]

Nije točno. Prema Eupediji Hrvatska (bez bosanskih Hrvata) ima veću frekvenciju I2a1b od Srbije, mada razlika nije velika, mislim 37% naspram 33%. Uzorak je veoma velik tako da su mjerenja prilično precizna.

Na Eupediji nisu baš najtačniji podaci. Uostalom ono su podaci za države a ne za narode, a ima i multi-etničkih država.

Ne znam da li stoji za Hrvatsku ono što napisano na Eupediji, ali znam da Srbi (ne Srbija) na uzorku od +1800 imaju oko 36% I2a1b.

[CommonSense]

Croats assimilated people such as Germans and Slovenes, while Serbia was rather sparsely populated after the Turkish conquest up until the 18th century, when people from Montenegro, Romania and the Southern Balkans started migrating here. All of this is the reason why Croats are shifted towards the northwest, and Serbs towards the southeast. In Bosnia, however, all three ethnicities are similar genetically and cluster exactly in between Serbia and Croatia. My guess is that all three territories/countries used to be pretty similar until the Ottoman period when mass population displacement ocurred, changing the ethnic composition of the peninsula forever. People from Bosnia are probably the most similar to the South Slavs from the Middle Ages.

[Jackson78]

Nije točno. Prema Eupediji Hrvatska (bez bosanskih Hrvata) ima veću frekvenciju I2a1b od Srbije, mada razlika nije velika, mislim 37% naspram 33%. Uzorak je veoma velik tako da su mjerenja prilično precizna.

Eupedia odavno nije relevantna kao izvor. Mislim da po istraživanju SANU (preko 1000 haplotipova) koje bi trebalo uskoro da bude objavljeno, Srbi u Srbiji imaju veće procente I2a nego na Eupediji, tu negde kao Hrvatska ili za koji procenat i veće od Hrvatske.

[Jana]

Croats assimilated people such as Germans and Slovenes, while Serbia was rather sparsely populated after the Turkish conquest up until the 18th century, when people from Montenegro, Romania and the Southern Balkans started migrating here. All of this is the reason why Croats are shifted towards the northwest, and Serbs towards the southeast. In Bosnia, however, all three ethnicities are similar genetically and cluster exactly in between Serbia and Croatia. My guess is that all three territories/countries used to be pretty similar until the Ottoman period when mass population displacement ocurred, changing the ethnic composition of the peninsula forever. People from Bosnia are probably the most similar to the South Slavs from the Middle Ages.

Serbs actually more Germanic than Croats, They have quite more I1 and Many Serbs here score huge NW European which I havent seen in Croats so far

But also Serbs more native Balkan

Croats more Slavic

(which is Ironic since we have Gothicists and Illyriansists while you are uber Slavicist)

:P

[Pribislav]

Nije točno. Prema Eupediji Hrvatska (bez bosanskih Hrvata) ima veću frekvenciju I2a1b od Srbije, mada razlika nije velika, mislim 37% naspram 33%. Uzorak je veoma velik tako da su mjerenja prilično precizna.

Na Eupediji su za državu Srbiju stavili 34% I2a
https://s31.postimg.cc/4w9ua17y3/image.png

Ovo možda i jeste tačno, ali za državu Srbiju koja ima 20% nacionalnih manjina (bez Kosova): Mađari, Sanžaklije, Cigani, Albanci, Vlasi, Rumuni, Slovaci, Bugari itd. žive u Srbiji, a svi ti narodi imaju manje I2a od Srba.

[CommonSense]

Serbs actually more Germanic than Croats, They have quite more I1 and Many Serbs here score huge NW European which I havent seen in Croats so far

But also Serbs more native Balkan

Croats more Slavic

Haplogroups are just a small part of the genome. Just take a look at Sardinians, they represent a unique cluster and descend almost entirely from neolithic farmers, but over half of the male population over there is I2 and R1b.

[Jana]

Croatians have more R1a in % than Serbs.
Serbs and Croatians have similar % of I2a, and same % of I2-PH908 both about 26%. In total number Serbs have more people which carry I2a and R1a.

Croatians who are I2-PH908 are croatized Serbs such as your paternal ancestors. :)

I2a1b weak in Czechs and Poles, I think those are Sclavenians that migrated with Avars trough Moldova and Romania over Danube while White Croats and White Serbs Were mostly R1a

[Mingle]

Croats assimilated people such as Germans and Slovenes, while Serbia was rather sparsely populated after the Turkish conquest up until the 18th century, when people from Montenegro, Romania and the Southern Balkans started migrating here. All of this is the reason why Croats are shifted towards the northwest, and Serbs towards the southeast. In Bosnia, however, all three ethnicities are similar genetically and cluster exactly in between Serbia and Croatia. My guess is that all three territories/countries used to be pretty similar until the Ottoman period when mass population displacement ocurred, changing the ethnic composition of the peninsula forever. People from Bosnia are probably the most similar to the South Slavs from the Middle Ages.

In Bosnia, all three ethnicities are geographically closer to each other. Bosnia's case seems to prove that the genetic differences are more based on geography rather than on ethnicity. Within Serbia and Croatia, both countries have regional genetic variation based on geography.

Slovenes are also South Slavs so I don't see why Pre-Ottoman Serbia should have been the same as Croatia but not Slovenia. The fact Slovenes and Croats are not identical despite Croatia never being conquered by the Ottomans should show that the Ottomans wouldn't have made that much of a difference. The difference may have been smaller without the Ottomans but it likely still would have been noticeable to a degree.

[Dalmatinac]

Eupedia odavno nije relevantna kao izvor. Mislim da po istraživanju SANU (preko 1000 haplotipova) koje bi trebalo uskoro da bude objavljeno, Srbi u Srbiji imaju veće procente I2a nego na Eupediji, tu negde kao Hrvatska ili za koji procenat i veće od Hrvatske.

SANU mi također nije relevantan izvor jer se oko tih haplotipova mnogo politizira. Ovo su brojke bez Bosanskih Hrvata (a oni imaju 71-73% čak), kad bi se oni nadodali statistici, išlo bi to možda i do 45% ukupno, gotovo svaki drugi.

[Jana]

Since I'm not much into genetics, my question is: What haplogroups are considered to be native balkanic ones? E1b1b only? Or I2a1b too? I ask this because Croats share larger frequency of I2a1b than Serbs by at least few % according to various studies. Moreover, some ethnically croatian territories are record holders when it comes to the frequency of this haplogroup. For example, Croats of Herzegovina share about 71%, while Croats of Dalmatia about 65%, which is a frequency nowhere else to be seen in such a high values!

I2a1b is not native Balkan haplogroup, it has oldest clades and highest diversity north from Balkans.
Also so far we have medieval Polish , Russian and Hungarian I2-din samples but none from southeastern Europe.

Yet it is not original Balto Slavic marker because BaltoSlavs Were IndoEuropeans and R1a.
I haplogroup is pre-IE and native to Europe, but it seems it participated in ethnogenesis of proto Slavs and came to the Balkans mostly with medieval Slavic tribes.

[Pribislav]

I2a1b weak in Czechs and Poles, I think those are Sclavenians that migrated with Avars trough Moldova and Romania over Danube while White Croats and White Serbs Were mostly R1a

If Serbs and Croatians from early middle age were mostly R1a, how is possible that modern Serbs and Croatians have higher I2a?

That is maybe possible only if other Slavic tribes (except Serbs and Croatians) which migrated to the Balkans were predominantly I2a, and Serbs and Croatian assimilated them.

[Dalmatinac]

Na Eupediji su za državu Srbiju stavili 34% I2a
https://s31.postimg.cc/4w9ua17y3/image.png

Ovo možda i jeste tačno, ali za državu Srbiju koja ima 20% nacionalnih manjina (bez Kosova): Mađari, Sanžaklije, Cigani, Albanci, Vlasi, Rumuni, Slovaci, Bugari itd. žive u Srbiji, a svi ti narodi imaju manje I2a od Srba.

Ne znam. Postoji više istraživanja, ali rezultati su više-manje slični - razlika je tek u ponekom postotku. Jedno istraživanje je pokazalo da je frekvencija I2a1b u Hrvatskoj 38%. Ne vjerujem da su tu uključene nacionalne manjine.

[Jackson78]

SANU mi također nije relevantan izvor jer se oko tih haplotipova mnogo politizira. Ovo su brojke bez Bosanskih Hrvata (a oni imaju 71-73% čak), kad bi se oni nadodali statistici, išlo bi to možda i do 45% ukupno, gotovo svaki drugi.

Relevantniji je zato što tu nisu skupljani sa koca i konopca uzorci. Ovo za "politiziranje" neću da komentarišem, jer mi nije jasno šta je tu pisac hteo reći. Ako je igde bilo "politiziranja", to je bilo kod istraživanja onog vašeg mamlaza Primorca.

Ja sam i rekao bez BiH Hrvata, čitaj malo bolje. I vrlo je upitno to da li Hrvati u BiH imaju tolike procente I2a. Zapravo, za Bosanske Hrvate i nije upitno, oni nemaju ni blizu toga, za Hercegovačke itekako jeste.

[CommonSense]

In Bosnia, all three ethnicities are geographically closer to each other. Bosnia's case seems to prove that the genetic differences are more based on geography rather than on ethnicity. Within Serbia and Croatia, both countries have regional genetic variation based on geography.

Slovenes are also South Slavs so I don't see why Pre-Ottoman Serbia should have been the same as Croatia but not Slovenia. The fact Slovenes and Croats are not identical despite Croatia never being conquered by the Ottomans should show that the Ottomans wouldn't have made that much of a difference. The difference may have been smaller without the Ottomans but it likely still would have been noticeable to a degree.

Slovenes settled on a territory that never was part of the Roman Illyricum and the small number of native inhabitants there were ethnically and genetically different from Thracians and Illyrians. You also must keep in mind that Slovenes fell early to Frankish rule and later in the Middle Ages their lands became part of Austria and stayed that way until 1918. Out of all the South Slavic peoples, they spent by far the largest amount of time under foreign rule. During all those centuries they were heavily influenced by Germans which is why their appearance and mentality is so different from the rest of us today.

[Jana]

In Bosnia, all three ethnicities are geographically closer to each other. Bosnia's case seems to prove that the genetic differences are more based on geography rather than on ethnicity. Within Serbia and Croatia, both countries have regional genetic variation based on geography.

Slovenes are also South Slavs so I don't see why Pre-Ottoman Serbia should have been the same as Croatia but not Slovenia. The fact Slovenes and Croats are not identical despite Croatia never being conquered by the Ottomans should show that the Ottomans wouldn't have made that much of a difference. The difference may have been smaller without the Ottomans but it likely still would have been noticeable to a degree.

Actually part of Croatia that Remained free of Turks (NW) is closest to Slovenia.
But south Croatia or BIH never was and I am certain of that.

Difference is that because Slovenia (and NW Croatia) was inhabited by different native people than Croatia south of Sava river and Bosnia Herzegovina.

Slovenia was Celtic before it was Slavic while Croatia was mostly Illyrian.
That is why Slovenes have 20 percent of Western R1b among other reasons and weak Balkanic touch.

Celts and Illyrians Were quite different genetically it is easy to predict.

[Joso]

Why do Serbs have on average more of Native Balkan ancestry than Croats?

Was it always like that, or is it the result of some relatively recent events?

Because of Mortimer

[Jana]

If Serbs and Croatians from early middle age were mostly R1a, how is possible that modern Serbs and Croatians have higher I2a?

That is maybe possible only if other Slavic tribes (except Serbs and Croatians) which migrated to the Balkans were predominantly I2a, and Serbs and Croatian assimilated them.

Yes, for example Byzantine sources mention Avaro-Slavs that inhabited Dalmatia before Croats (and Serbs) came. And They came from eastern direction, where is rich in I2 din.

[Dalmatinac]

Relevantniji je zato što tu nisu skupljani sa koca i konopca uzorci. Ovo za "politiziranje" neću da komentarišem, jer mi nije jasno šta je tu pisac hteo reći. Ako je igde bilo "politiziranja", to je bilo kod istraživanja onog vašeg mamlaza Primorca.

Ja sam i rekao bez BiH Hrvata, čitaj malo bolje. I vrlo je upitno to da li Hrvati u BiH imaju tolike procente I2a. Zapravo, za Bosanske Hrvate i nije upitno, oni nemaju ni blizu toga, za Hercegovačke itekako jeste.

S obzirom na prijašnja iskustva sa SANU-om, mislim da je neozbiljno reć da je to imalo relevantan izvor. Dragan Primorac je svjetski priznati genetičar, zapravo jedan od najeminentnijih u svijetu, tako da njegova istraživanja svakako imaju težinu. Prije 7-8 godina u mom mjestu (Bol na Braču) održan je simpozij na njegovu inicijativu na kojem su sudjelovali neki od najvećih svjetskih genetičara, i to mislim da je bilo na stotine uzvanika. To dovoljno govori koliko je on priznat u toj sferi.
Zna se šta sam htio reć pod pojmom "politiziranje". Dovoljno je promotriti poreklo.rs koji je jedan stvarno kvalitetno odrađen projekt, ali problem je šta se pristupa ovoj tematici iz kuta romantičarskog nacionalizma. Tako se Srbima proglašava sve osobe koji su nosioci spomenute haplogrupe iako je sasvim jasno da se njene daleko najveće koncentracije nalaze van teritorije Srbije, u područjima u kojima su Srbi manjina, što je apsurdno samo po sebi. Problem na bakanu je da se svemu prirodaje nacionalni predznak umjesto da se ovoj tematici pristupa hladne glave i pokuša objektivno sagledati činjenično stanje

[Jana]

Slovenes settled on a territory that never was part of the Roman Illyricum and the small number of native inhabitants there were ethnically and genetically different from Thracians and Illyrians. You also must keep in mind that Slovenes fell early to Frankish rule and later in the Middle Ages their lands became part of Austria and stayed that way until 1918. Out of all the South Slavic peoples, they spent by far the largest amount of time under foreign rule. During all those centuries they were heavily influenced by Germans which is why their appearance and mentality is so different from the rest of us today.

This is true.

[Pribislav]

Slovenia was Celtic before it was Slavic while Croatia was mostly Illyrian.
That is why Slovenes have 20 percent of Western R1b among other reasons and weak Balkanic touch.

I think that high amount of Slovenian R1b is Germanic influence in the last 1000 years.
Slovenia was part of Germanic empires from 11th century to 1918 (Holy Roman Empire, Austrian Empire/Austro-Hungary).
Slovenians were subordinared to German/Austrian lords for 900 years.
Also, Germans lived in Slovenia. Some of them stayed after 1945 and they were assimilated by Slovenians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_of_Yugoslavia#Slovenia

[Jana]

Dragan Primorac je imao dobre namjere nesumnjam, ali njegovi zaključci su sada vec davno zastarjeli i neutemeljeni ali valja uzeti u obzir da je tada (prije desetak godina) populacijska genetika bila u povojima i jednostavno se premalo znalo o porijeklu i starosti određenih markera.

[Jana]

I think that high amount of Slovenian R1b is Germanic influence in the last 1000 years.
Slovenia was part of Germanic empires from 11th century to 1918 (Holy Roman Empire, Austrian Empire/Austro-Hungary).
Slovenians were subordinared to German/Austrian lords for 900 years.
Also, Germans lived in Slovenia. Some of them stayed after 1945 and they were assimilated by Slovenians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_of_Yugoslavia#Slovenia

Yes ofcourse , but it is both. They have quite a lot of R1b U152 which is Italo-Celtic marker, and very low Paleo Balkan R1b L23.

[CommonSense]

Dragan Primorac je imao dobre namjere nesumnjam, ali njegovi zaključci su sada vec davno zastarjeli i neutemeljeni ali valja uzeti u obzir da je tada (prije desetak godina) populacijska genetika bila u povojima i jednostavno se premalo znalo o porijeklu i starosti određenih markera.

Reci to Bošnjacima. Njima su idalje puna usta onog istraživanja koje su izvršili u iGENEA pre 12 godina i to koriste kao "dokaz" da su pretežno I2a i Ilirskog porekla, dok smo mi ostali Sloveni i Turci :crazy:

http://www.forum.hr/showthread.php?t=349499
http://www.bosnjaci.net/prilog.php?pid=43233

[Kelmendasi]

With Albanians not surely, since Albanian as ethnos still didn't exist in those times of Slavic migrations (as well not Serb or Croat), but mixed with Albanian ancestors? Could be.
Albanians didn't exist but the Proto-Albanians did. I guess Serbs may have intermixed more recently with Albanians though, probably minimal though.

[Jana]

Reci to Bošnjacima. Njima su idalje puna usta onog istraživanja koje su izvršili u iGENEA pre 12 godina i to koriste kao "dokaz" da su pretežno I2a i Ilirskog porekla, dok smo mi ostali Sloveni i Turci :crazy:

http://www.forum.hr/showthread.php?t=349499
http://www.bosnjaci.net/prilog.php?pid=43233

Mislim da je tome razlog sto su ljudi u BIH (a i kod nas, ali ipak malo manje) neobrazovani i moze im se podvaliti svakakva priča, a uostalom njihovo Ilirstvo sada ima i političku komponentu i ozbiljno se forsira čak i u džamijama !!

Jos se i na Balkanu ljudi poput Bosniensisa ili onog vašeg pseudoznanstvenika koji je ispao R1a (hahah) smatraju zabavnima i imaju svoju publiku umjesto da ih se ignorira ili izvrgne ruglu kako zasluzuju.

Ljudi vani ipak nesto vise čitaju, preispituju, traže dokaze i racionalana objašnjenja za neku tezu no ovdje je to jos uvijek u Sferi mitova i "narodne predaje" kako mi se čini.

Laku noc svima :)

[Mingle]

Actually part of Croatia that Remained free of Turks (NW) is closest to Slovenia.
But south Croatia or BIH never was and I am certain of that.

Is there a large genetic difference between NW Croatia and the rest of the country?

[Kelmendasi]

Since I'm not much into genetics, my question is: What haplogroups are considered to be native balkanic ones? E1b1b only? Or I2a1b too? I ask this because Croats share larger frequency of I2a1b than Serbs by at least few % according to various studies. Moreover, some ethnically croatian territories are record holders when it comes to the frequency of this haplogroup. For example, Croats of Herzegovina share about 71%, while Croats of Dalmatia about 65%, which is a frequency nowhere else to be seen in such a high values!
I2a1b in the Balkans, Dinaric clade, is of Slavic origin. It reaches highest diversity in eastern Europe and the subclades all have pretty recent TMRCAs suggesting early Medieval expansion. As for native haplogroups in the Balkans, E-V13, J2b2, R1b(certain clades), certain branches of I and many others such as T, G etc could be considered native

[CommonSense]

I2a1b in the Balkans, Dinaric clade, is of Slavic origin. It reaches highest diversity in eastern Europe and the subclades all have pretty recent TMRCAs suggesting early Medieval expansion. As for native haplogroups in the Balkans, E-V13, J2b2, R1b(certain clades), certain branches of I and many others such as T, G etc could be considered native

I was wondering about this and I guess you are the right person to ask. Do Albanians have any Italic clades of R1b and J2? What about the rest of the Balkans?

[Dalmatinac]

Evo pod ovim mislim na "politiziranje", svugdje na Balkanu ista priča :picard1:

80454

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Albanians didn't exist but the Proto-Albanians did. I guess Serbs may have intermixed more recently with Albanians though, probably minimal though.

Yes, that's confirming of my theory. Would you call Serbian E1b as proto-Albanian, or would be more "tolerant" and say that it is Albano-Serbian is arbitraty. What can be say for sure is that didn't come with Slavs and is mostly related with Albanians.

[Jana]

Is there a large genetic difference between NW Croatia and the rest of the country?

Not large, but noticable in both YDNA distribution (R1a dominates) and autosomal clustering.
They are quite close to even to Czechs, for example.

[Dalmatinac]

I2a1b in the Balkans, Dinaric clade, is of Slavic origin. It reaches highest diversity in eastern Europe and the subclades all have pretty recent TMRCAs suggesting early Medieval expansion. As for native haplogroups in the Balkans, E-V13, J2b2, R1b(certain clades), certain branches of I and many others such as T, G etc could be considered native

Then why do many people believe that I2a1b carriers were Illyrians? Internet is full of such theories. I don't have an opinion on that, I'm just wondering

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Reci to Bošnjacima. Njima su idalje puna usta onog istraživanja koje su izvršili u iGENEA pre 12 godina i to koriste kao "dokaz" da su pretežno I2a i Ilirskog porekla, dok smo mi ostali Sloveni i Turci :crazy:

http://www.forum.hr/showthread.php?t=349499
http://www.bosnjaci.net/prilog.php?pid=43233

Stranica "Bosnjaci" nije naucno-historijska stranica, nego politicka. Znao je i Kurir objaviti svakakvih gluposti na svom portalu, ali njihovo misljenje o nauci (kao i navedene stranice "Bosnjaci") je totalno nebitno. Čak i da se kojim slučajem ispostavilo da je I2a ilirska (a nije), to ne mijenja uopšte situaciju na relaciji Bošnjaci-Srbi-Hrvati. Etnički identiteti nisu građeni na haplogrupama nigdje na planeti još, pa tako ni u ovom slučaju. :)

[Dick]

Reci to Bošnjacima. Njima su idalje puna usta onog istraživanja koje su izvršili u iGENEA pre 12 godina i to koriste kao "dokaz" da su pretežno I2a i Ilirskog porekla, dok smo mi ostali Sloveni i Turci :crazy:

http://www.forum.hr/showthread.php?t=349499
http://www.bosnjaci.net/prilog.php?pid=43233

They built pyramids n shiet.

[Kelmendasi]

I was wondering about this and I guess you are the right person to ask. Do Albanians have any Italic clades of R1b and J2? What about the rest of the Balkans?
Eupedia does seem to suggest that R1b-U152, a clade linked to Italo-Celtic peoples, is present in Albanians. Though we have yet to find this on our project and we need further testing when we do get these results to see if their specific clades are actually Italic. As for J2, we have found certain Albanians from the south that belong to J2a-Z515 which has various downstreams that are found among Italians so it could be assumed that it is of Italic input. I have seen R1b-U152 pop up among some Serbs though it doesn't seem to be common. I saw that Slovenia had a decent amount of R1b-U152, around 5%. As for others i'll have to check

[Kelmendasi]

Then why do many people believe that I2a1b carriers were Illyrians? Internet is full of such theories. I don't have an opinion on that, I'm just wondering
It's an old theory from 2010-14. The theory was mainly based on frequency when compared to other Slavs and the frequency of it being found in Romanians

[Dalmatinac]

One more question. Why is I2a1b frequency the highest in mountainous regions and on the dalmatian islands? Is there any theory on that?

[Kelmendasi]

Yes, that's confirming of my theory. Would you call Serbian E1b as proto-Albanian, or would be more "tolerant" and say that it is Albano-Serbian is arbitraty. What can be say for sure is that didn't come with Slavs and is mostly related with Albanians.
I would say that it's certain that a lot of the E-V13 in Serbs or south Slavs in general is just from the native peoples that they came across, though not necessarily Proto-Albanians since they were believed to have been a rather cohesive and isolated group inhabiting mountainous areas. But there are certain downstreams that you could link to an Albanian origin, though these downstreams aren't found in all Serbs but rather in ones that have had historical contact with Albanians

[Kelmendasi]

One more question. Why is I2a1b frequency the highest in mountainous regions and on the dalmatian islands? Is there any theory on that?
No real massive explanation to that. It's just that I2a1b men were better at having male sons than their counterparts that weren't I2a1b. Frequency doesn't mean much unless it is backed with things like high diversity

[Jackson78]

S obzirom na prijašnja iskustva sa SANU-om, mislim da je neozbiljno reć da je to imalo relevantan izvor. Dragan Primorac je svjetski priznati genetičar, zapravo jedan od najeminentnijih u svijetu, tako da njegova istraživanja svakako imaju težinu. Prije 7-8 godina u mom mjestu (Bol na Braču) održan je simpozij na njegovu inicijativu na kojem su sudjelovali neki od najvećih svjetskih genetičara, i to mislim da je bilo na stotine uzvanika. To dovoljno govori koliko je on priznat u toj sferi.
Zna se šta sam htio reć pod pojmom "politiziranje". Dovoljno je promotriti poreklo.rs koji je jedan stvarno kvalitetno odrađen projekt, ali problem je šta se pristupa ovoj tematici iz kuta romantičarskog nacionalizma. Tako se Srbima proglašava sve osobe koji su nosioci spomenute haplogrupe iako je sasvim jasno da se njene daleko najveće koncentracije nalaze van teritorije Srbije, u područjima u kojima su Srbi manjina, što je apsurdno samo po sebi. Problem na bakanu je da se svemu prirodaje nacionalni predznak umjesto da se ovoj tematici pristupa hladne glave i pokuša objektivno sagledati činjenično stanje

Čim je za tebe Primorac "ozbiljan genetičar", nema se šta tobom šta dalje sa tobom diskutovati...

A o romantizmu, pristrasnosti i neobjektivnosti, stvarno ne bih.

[Jackson78]

Evo pod ovim mislim na "politiziranje", svugdje na Balkanu ista priča :picard1:

80454

To je novinarski debilizam i senzacionalizam, niko normalan neće poverovati u ovo. A bogami, ovakvih stvari ni u vašim medijima ne manjka.

[CommonSense]

Stranica "Bosnjaci" nije naucno-historijska stranica, nego politicka. Znao je i Kurir objaviti svakakvih gluposti na svom portalu, ali njihovo misljenje o nauci (kao i navedene stranice "Bosnjaci") je totalno nebitno. Čak i da se kojim slučajem ispostavilo da je I2a ilirska (a nije), to ne mijenja uopšte situaciju na relaciji Bošnjaci-Srbi-Hrvati. Etnički identiteti nisu građeni na haplogrupama nigdje na planeti još, pa tako ni u ovom slučaju. :)

Ma znam da su sve te stranice političke, problem je u tome što to veliki broj ljudi uzima zdravo za gotovo, pa zato danas stalno viđaš Srbe koji pričaju kako je "Kljosov dokazao da je srpski gen star 12 000 godina" i Bošnjake koji ističu da je "istraživanje u igenea pokazalo kako su Bošnjaci najstarije stanovništvo Balkana". Ljudi ovde slabo znaju za 23andMe, FTDNA i slične kompanije, previše im je komplikovano to što oni nude, a naravno pošto se rezultati testiranja preko tih kompanija često ne poklapaju sa narodnim željama, odmah se pokreću teorije zavera kako su ta genetska istraživanja zapravo nameštena:picard1:

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Ma znam da su sve te stranice političke, problem je u tome što to veliki broj ljudi uzima zdravo za gotovo, pa zato danas stalno viđaš Srbe koji pričaju kako je "Kljosov dokazao da je srpski gen star 12 000 godina" i Bošnjake koji ističu da je "istraživanje u igenea pokazalo kako su Bošnjaci najstarije stanovništvo Balkana". Ljudi ovde slabo znaju za 23andMe, FTDNA i slične kompanije, previše im je komplikovano to što oni nude, a naravno pošto se rezultati testiranja preko tih kompanija često ne poklapaju sa narodnim željama, odmah se pokreću teorije zavera kako su ta genetska istraživanja zapravo nameštena:picard1:

Čak i ova istraživanja, koja mi svi pratimo, se na kraju ispostave (za 15-20 godina) kao netačna. Mnoge od ovih stvari koje nama važe za provjerene, možda i nisu, e zamisli tek na kakvom su nivou genetski izvori stranica Bosnjaci i srpskih stranica koje propagiraju Kljosova i njegove teorije.

[CommonSense]

Čak i ova istraživanja, koja mi svi pratimo, se na kraju ispostave (za 15-20 godina) kao netačna. Mnoge od ovih stvari koje nama važe za provjerene, možda i nisu, e zamisli tek na kakvom su nivou genetski izvori stranica Bosnjaci i srpskih stranica koje propagiraju Kljosova i njegove teorije.

Zanimljivo da Kljosov ni tada nije bio ni najmanje relevantan u svetu. On jeste radio neko vreme na Harvardu, ali tamo nije vršio istraživanja na Y-DNK haplogrupama, već to započeo znatno kasnije. Ima svakavih krajnje preteranih ideja u njegovim istraživanjima o poreklu, te ga čak i u njegovoj rodnoj Rusiji svrstavaju u pseudonaučnike. Sve to čovek može proveriti u roku od nekoliko minuta, ali ljudima je bitnije šta prenosi telegraf i šarlatani poput onih što gostuju na BalkanInfo :D

[Dick]

Well, our grandparents or great-grandparents were eating a meat just once per a week, therefore todays generations are taller than the previous ones.
You can see it at old houses older than 100 years: look at its doors height.


Świńsko-pyrsko-mleczno-jajeczno-wołowa:

"Pork protein has the biggest additive effect, when combined with dairy proteins (r = 0.82; p < 0.001), followed by protein from eggs (r = 0.81) and potatoes (r = 0.81). The correlation reaches r = 0.84, when potatoes are added to dairy and pork. The highest r-value (r = 0.85) was achieved via the combination of proteins from dairy, pork, beef, eggs and potatoes (‘highly correlated proteins’). The strength of this relationship is visually impressive (Fig. 8). ‘Highly correlated proteins’ are also the strongest correlate of male height."

Maybe let's just call it anti-vegan theory.

Slavic propaganda.

[FinalFlash]

Serbs are mostly native to their region, that's why.

[Peterski]

Since I'm not much into genetics, my question is: What haplogroups are considered to be native balkanic ones? E1b1b only? Or I2a1b too? I ask this because Croats share larger frequency of I2a1b than Serbs by at least few % according to various studies. Moreover, some ethnically croatian territories are record holders when it comes to the frequency of this haplogroup. For example, Croats of Herzegovina share about 71%, while Croats of Dalmatia about 65%, which is a frequency nowhere else to be seen in such a high values!

I think that the following 6 Y-DNA lineages can be associated with Proto-Slavs:

R1a-L260, R1a-YP515, R1a-L1029, I2a-Y3120, R1a-CTS3402 and R1a-YP343

We can break it down further and associate the following 25 subclades with Proto-Slavs:

TMRCA = time of most recent common ancestor
ybp = years before present

R1a-M458 - 4 subclades:

PF7521>Y2604>L260 (formed 4600 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp)
PF7521>Y2604>CTS11962>YP515 (formed 3200 ybp, TMRCA 2100 ybp)
PF7521>Y2604>CTS11962>L1029 (formed 3200 ybp, TMRCA 2100 ybp)
A11460 (formed 4700 ybp, TMRCA 2700 ybp)

I2a-CTS10228 - 4 subclades:

Y3120 (formed 3800 ybp, TMRCA 2300 ybp)
Y3120>A2512 (formed 2300 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp)
Y3120>Y4460 (formed 2300 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp)
Y3120>S17250 (formed 2300 ybp, TMRCA 1850 ybp)

R1a-CTS1211 (M558) - 13 subclades:

Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609 (formed 3200 ybp, TMRCA 2400 ybp)
Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP582>YP578 (formed 2400 ybp, TMRCA 2400 ybp)
Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP951 (formed 3800 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp)
Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP295 (formed 3300 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybp)
Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238 (formed 3300 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybp)
Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902 (formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp)
Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y3301>L1280 (formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 2300 ybp)
Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y3301>S18681 (formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 2400 ybp)
Y35>YP4278 (formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 1850 ybp)
YP343>YP340>P278.2 (formed 3100 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp)
YP343>YP340>YP371 (formed 3100 ybp, TMRCA 2300 ybp)
YP343>YP3982 (formed 3700 ybp, TMRCA 2100 ybp)
YP1019>YP1020 (formed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 2600 ybp)

R1a-Z92 - 3 subclades:

Z92>Y4459>YP5520 (formed 3500 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp)
Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP573>YP569 (formed 3400 ybp, TMRCA 1900 ybp)
Z92>Z685>Z1907>CTS9551>YP5611 (formed 3900 ybp, TMRCA 1950 ybp)

Possibly also:

R1b-Z2103 - 1 subclade:

R1b-Y14300 (formed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 1800 ybp)

^^^
All of those 25 subclades are common in Slavic-speaking countries and young enough to be associated with Proto-Slavs. Of course their association with Proto-Slavs is not certain but it is very probable considering their age and distribution.

I used Y-Full for age estimates: https://www.yfull.com/tree/

It is estimated that Proto-Slavs split from Balto-Slavs ca. 4000/3500-2500 years ago:

"(...) There is a near consensus among linguists that the Baltic and Slavic languages stem from a common root, Proto-Balto-Slavic, which separated from other Indo-European languages around 4,500–7,000 years before present (YBP) [1–8] and whose origin is mapped to Central Europe [8]. The Balto-Slavic node was recognized already in the pioneer Indo-European[9]. The split between Baltic and Slavic branches has been dated to around 3,500–2,500 YBP [6–8]. (...)"

And first divisions within the Proto-Slavs could take place already before year 100 CE:

"(...) Our consensus tree (Fig. G in S2 File) suggests the following topological and temporal reconstruction of the Balto-Slavic languages. Initial disintegration of proto-Balto-Slavic into proto-East Baltic and proto-Slavic took place during the 2nd millennium BC. Proto Slavic splits into 3 major clades, East, West, South Slavic around year 100 AD (1900 Years Before Present). Further diversification of each clade into minor clades (i.e. proto-East Slavic: Ukrainian/Belarusian, Russian; proto-West Slavic: Czech/Slovak, Sorbian, Polish/Kashubian; proto-South Slavic: Serbo-Croatian, Bulgarian, Macedonian) took place during the 5th–7th centuries AD (about 1500–1300 YPB), followed by final shaping of individual languages (1000–500 YBP). (...)"

=====

I2a-Din is more strongly associated with Slavs than R1a-Z280. Mainly because R1a-Z280 has older lineages:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z280/

The two Y-DNA haplogroups most strongly associated with Slavs so far, are R1a-M458 and I2a-Din.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Albanians didn't exist but the Proto-Albanians did. I guess Serbs may have intermixed more recently with Albanians though, probably minimal though.

I was searching about proto Albanian language, but couldn't find informations when it was spoken, in which time? Which centuries would it be to begin with it?

[Robocop]

Why do Serbs have on average more of Native Balkan ancestry than Croats?

Was it always like that, or is it the result of some relatively recent events?

Well it's simple; it's because of their geographical position, it is only natural they will have some autosomal DNA/genetics connection to their neighbours such as Bugars, Albanians, Macedons etc...

And ofcourse with that goes genetics make up.

I would say without any doubt that Serbs are something in between of been Slavic (as someone is predominant slavic) and balkan people, they would be some perfect mix of that, but I would say they still lean more toward slavs than toward balkanic ppl such as greeks, albanians, bulgars etc...

IMO Serbs are slightly more connected and related to Slovenes/Croats/Bosniaks than to Albanians, Greeks or Bulgarians.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I think that the following 6 Y-DNA lineages can be associated with Proto-Slavs:

R1a-L260, R1a-YP515, R1a-L1029, I2a-Y3120, R1a-CTS3402 and R1a-YP343

We can break it down further and associate the following 25 subclades with Proto-Slavs:

TMRCA = time of most recent common ancestor
ybp = years before present

R1a-M458 - 4 subclades:

PF7521>Y2604>L260 (formed 4600 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp)
PF7521>Y2604>CTS11962>YP515 (formed 3200 ybp, TMRCA 2100 ybp)
PF7521>Y2604>CTS11962>L1029 (formed 3200 ybp, TMRCA 2100 ybp)
A11460 (formed 4700 ybp, TMRCA 2700 ybp)

I2a-CTS10228 - 4 subclades:

Y3120 (formed 3800 ybp, TMRCA 2300 ybp)
Y3120>A2512 (formed 2300 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp)
Y3120>Y4460 (formed 2300 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp)
Y3120>S17250 (formed 2300 ybp, TMRCA 1850 ybp)

R1a-CTS1211 (M558) - 13 subclades:

Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609 (formed 3200 ybp, TMRCA 2400 ybp)
Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP582>YP578 (formed 2400 ybp, TMRCA 2400 ybp)
Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP951 (formed 3800 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp)
Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP295 (formed 3300 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybp)
Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238 (formed 3300 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybp)
Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902 (formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp)
Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y3301>L1280 (formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 2300 ybp)
Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y3301>S18681 (formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 2400 ybp)
Y35>YP4278 (formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 1850 ybp)
YP343>YP340>P278.2 (formed 3100 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp)
YP343>YP340>YP371 (formed 3100 ybp, TMRCA 2300 ybp)
YP343>YP3982 (formed 3700 ybp, TMRCA 2100 ybp)
YP1019>YP1020 (formed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 2600 ybp)

R1a-Z92 - 3 subclades:

Z92>Y4459>YP5520 (formed 3500 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp)
Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP573>YP569 (formed 3400 ybp, TMRCA 1900 ybp)
Z92>Z685>Z1907>CTS9551>YP5611 (formed 3900 ybp, TMRCA 1950 ybp)

Possibly also:

R1b-Z2103 - 1 subclade:

R1b-Y14300 (formed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 1800 ybp)

^^^
All of those 25 subclades are common in Slavic-speaking countries and young enough to be associated with Proto-Slavs. Of course their association with Proto-Slavs is not certain but it is very probable considering their age and distribution.

I used Y-Full for age estimates: https://www.yfull.com/tree/

It is estimated that Proto-Slavs split from Balto-Slavs ca. 4000/3500-2500 years ago:

"(...) There is a near consensus among linguists that the Baltic and Slavic languages stem from a common root, Proto-Balto-Slavic, which separated from other Indo-European languages around 4,500–7,000 years before present (YBP) [1–8] and whose origin is mapped to Central Europe [8]. The Balto-Slavic node was recognized already in the pioneer Indo-European[9]. The split between Baltic and Slavic branches has been dated to around 3,500–2,500 YBP [6–8]. (...)"

And first divisions within the Proto-Slavs could take place already before year 100 CE:

"(...) Our consensus tree (Fig. G in S2 File) suggests the following topological and temporal reconstruction of the Balto-Slavic languages. Initial disintegration of proto-Balto-Slavic into proto-East Baltic and proto-Slavic took place during the 2nd millennium BC. Proto Slavic splits into 3 major clades, East, West, South Slavic around year 100 AD (1900 Years Before Present). Further diversification of each clade into minor clades (i.e. proto-East Slavic: Ukrainian/Belarusian, Russian; proto-West Slavic: Czech/Slovak, Sorbian, Polish/Kashubian; proto-South Slavic: Serbo-Croatian, Bulgarian, Macedonian) took place during the 5th–7th centuries AD (about 1500–1300 YPB), followed by final shaping of individual languages (1000–500 YBP). (...)"

=====

I2a-Din is more strongly associated with Slavs than R1a-Z280. Mainly because R1a-Z280 has older lineages:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z280/

The two Y-DNA haplogroups most strongly associated with Slavs so far, are R1a-M458 and I2a-Din.

I agree, but i believe that R1a-M558 is very associated with proto-Slavs too. Linguistical consensus is that East Slavic firstly separated from common proto-Slavic. And see today eastern Slavs, they're predominantly R1a-Z280.

[Dick]

my Ydna is Slavic as fuck


https://i.imgur.com/w1b8R7a.jpg

[Robocop]

my Ydna is Slavic as fuck


https://i.imgur.com/w1b8R7a.jpg

I was always saying and always will: Y-DNA is not important for person of today in terms of his/her genetics make up, but it is important for us in Archaeology (ArcheoGenetics) to have a "window" into distant past of human migrations.

On the other hand Autosomal DNA is totally important for person of today when he or she wants to find out from what he/she is made of.

Yet, in Archaeology we dont need Autosomal DNA, why? Reason is simple, it is for people from today, while Y-DNA is a window trough which we can make some conclusions about ethnics and cultures and civilizations combined with architecture, and everything else what ppl possesed from distant past.

For example your if someone would find a slavic person from 12th century in Serbia with your Y-DNA it would probably be connected to Gepids or Longobards, especially to Gepids.

Ostrogoths hm... maybe, but OstroGoths are long story, and complicated one considering genetics.

[oszkar07]

Did Serbs assimilate more Vlachs, did they mix more with Albanians/Greeks/Romanians, etc.?

I would imagine they did, more Vlachs and more Greek type peoples , also Ottomans were there 500 yrs.

[Dick]

For example your if someone would find a slavic person from 12th century in Serbia with your Y-DNA it would probably be connected to Gepids or Longobards, especially to Gepids.

Ostrogoths hm... maybe, but OstroGoths are long story, and complicated one considering genetics.

Nope. Guess again.

https://i.imgur.com/bpeffWy.jpg


also Ottomans were there 500 yrs.

:rotfl:

[JoãoAmoedo]

because Serbs are more mixed

[solaris]

because they absorbed the northern Macedonian population.

[Pribislav]

I would imagine they did, more Vlachs and more Greek type peoples , also Ottomans were there 500 yrs.

Central, western and eastern Serbia were under the Ottomans from 1459 to 1817, minus 1717-1739 when Austria took central/eastern/western Serbia from Ottomans, and minus 1804-1813 when Serbia was liberated in uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Serbia

Syrmia was under the Ottomans from 1521 to 1717.

Bačka was under the Ottomans from 1526 to 1687.

Banat was under the Ottomans 1552 to 1716.

Even Kosovo was not 500 years under the Ottomans. Kosovo was under the Ottomans from 1455 to 1912.



Turkish haplogroups does not exist among Serbs, and autosomally Serbs and Turks are very far away.
https://i.imgur.com/T5KuEXF.png

[Pribislav]

because they absorbed the northern Macedonian population.

Which northern Macedonian population? What are you talking about?

[oszkar07]

Central, western and eastern Serbia were under the Ottomans from 1459 to 1817, minus 1717-1739 when Austria took central/eastern/western Serbia from Ottomans, and minus 1804-1813 when Serbia was liberated in uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Serbia

Syrmia was under the Ottomans from 1521 to 1717.

Bačka was under the Ottomans from 1526 to 1687.

Banat was under the Ottomans 1552 to 1716.

Even Kosovo was not 500 years under the Ottomans. Kosovo was under the Ottomans from 1455 to 1912.



Turkish haplogroups does not exist among Serbs, and autosomally Serbs and Turks are very far away.
https://i.imgur.com/T5KuEXF.png

Fair enough , but I imagine Ottoman occupation left some cultural impact.

[Dick]

Fair enough , but I imagine Ottoman occupation left some cultural impact.

Lol, grasping at straws to try to prove that we are related to turks somehow. If we're not Slavs because of that then neither are Bosniaks.

[oszkar07]

Lol, grasping at straws to try to prove that we are related to turks somehow. If we're not Slavs because of that then neither are Bosniaks.

I said Ottomans were there for 500 years , I didnt say Serbs were mixed with Ottomans, Ottomans are todays Turks but Im not sure how genetically Turkic they were on the whole , there would have been a lot of ex byzantine converts by then too.
I havnt said you are not Slavs , I said there was probable Vlach and Greek type people admixture.
You are Slavs but on a genetic level I dont think you are that much more autosomally genetically slavic than for example Hungarians , but by genetic and culturally and by identity yes you are Slavs.

[Pribislav]

I said Ottomans were there for 500 years , I didnt say Serbs were mixed with Ottomans, Ottomans are todays Turks but Im not sure how genetically Turkic they were on the whole , there would have been a lot of ex byzantine converts by then too.
I havnt said you are not Slavs , I said there was probable Vlach and Greek type people admixture.
You are Slavs but on a genetic level I dont think you are that much more autosomally genetically slavic than for example Hungarians , but by genetic and culturally and by identity yes you are Slavs.

There one no mixing with Turks for few reasons.
First, vast majority of beys, pashas and other Ottoman elite in Serbian ethnic areas were islamized Serbs, and few Albanians and Pomaks. Of 4 Dahije which provoked Serbian uprising in 1804 3 was muslim Serbs, and 1 was Albanian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahije
Second, when Ottomans arrived most of Orthodox Serbs moved in mountains and lived isolated from islamized Serbs (servants of Ottomans).
Third, raping was rare and if somethimes happened perpetrators were mostly islamized Serbs. But children created on that way were mostly killed.

Significant number of Serbs lived in Austrian empire and Venetian Republic, mostly from the late 17th century, not all Serbs lived in Ottoman empire until 19th century.

My ancestors lived in Ottoman empire until 1692.

1692-1797 they lived in Venetian Republic.

1805-1814 they lived in French (Napoleon) empire.

1797-1805, 1814-1918 they live in Austrian empire/Austro-Hungary.

[Pribislav]

My ancestors lived in Ottoman empire until 1692.

1692-1797 they lived in Venetian Republic.

1805-1814 they lived in French (Napoleon) empire.

1797-1805, 1814-1918 they live in Austrian empire/Austro-Hungary.

The furthest origin of most my ancestrors is from Herzegovina.
Herzegovina fell under the Ottomans in 1482. My ancestors moved from Herzegovina to western Bosnia between 1520 and 1530. In year 1692 they moved from western Bosnia to Dalmatia on Venetian theritory.
When they lived in western Bosnia on Ottoman theritory they were in good relations with Ottomans, almost as Martolos. In 1692 they concluded a deal with Venetians to moved on their theritory. Together with Uskoks from Dalmatia they killed a lot of muslims in western Bosnia and moved to Dalmatia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uskoks
In Dalmatia they were in Venetian service against the Ottomans. In 1693 my ancestor died in the fight against the Ottomans in Venetian service.

[MiloshN]

SERBS ARE NOT TURKS!!!!

The darker color in Serbs comes from the old Balkan peoples and mixing with them! That's why the Serbian look is different from other Slavs but not genetically ...

[Pubiczar]

People here don't understand that actually the Turks are those who have Balkan genetics not the Balkan people Turkish.
One reason for that is taking Balkan women, most of the time by force.
The Balkan people were the conquered ones so they didn't take Turkish women and than because they were Christians and mixing with Turks who were Muslim was not allowed.
Mass rape as in the heads of some people is pure fantasy bc after all the Ottoman Empire was an organized empire in which there were rules and even protection for the Christians as long as they were loyal.
In some turbulent times, yes, there were rapes, but many times the children who were product of rape, didn't live long enough to see the bright light.
I know this is very cruel but that how it was back than, much like when a lion kills the cubs of a stranger.
People under slavery become animals!
Also there were many accounts of women taking their own life after being raped!

[Pribislav]

SERBS ARE NOT TURKS!!!!

The darker color in Serbs comes from the old Balkan peoples and mixing with them! That's why the Serbian look is different from other Slavs but not genetically ...

We are closer even to northern Europeans than to Turks
https://i.imgur.com/T5KuEXF.png

[Jana]

Which northern Macedonian population? What are you talking about?

He speaks about what Coon proposed, that brunette traits among Serbs come from mixing with Balkan natives in Macedonia, were it seems lot more natives survived than in western Balkans like Dalmatia.

[Jana]

SERBS ARE NOT TURKS!!!!

The darker color in Serbs comes from the old Balkan peoples and mixing with them! That's why the Serbian look is different from other Slavs but not genetically ...

It's not different, Serbs don't look like Albanians and Greeks, thy look like Slavic-Balkan mix mostly.
From Croatian perspective, they look in between Croats and Bulgarians and that is what genetically they are on average.

[Pribislav]

He speaks about what Coon proposed, that brunette traits among Serbs come from mixing with Balkan natives in Macedonia, were it seems lot more natives survived than in western Balkans like Dalmatia.

He probably think that Torlakian Serbs are "serbized" northern Macedonians.

[Jana]

He probably think that Torlakian Serbs are "serbized" northern Macedonians.

I don't agree with that.

[Jana]

Pribislav, do you think Serbs look more like Romanians or Bulgarians or Macedonian Slavs on average ? I mean, which of these three look most familiar to you ?

[MiloshN]

It's not different, Serbs don't look like Albanians and Greeks, thy look like Slavic-Balkan mix mostly.
From Croatian perspective, they look in between Croats and Bulgarians and that is what genetically they are on average.

Why Serbs looks different from Albanians and Greeks, is a small percentage of J2a haplogroup. Why Serbs (some, not totally all) have a darker skin but have Slav origin is mixins with E-V13. (I loved it or not, but we all have a percentage of E-V13. Including me.)

[Jana]

Why Serbs looks different from Albanians and Greeks, is an small percentage of J2a haplogroup. Why Serbs (some, not totally all) have a darker skin but have Slav origin is mixins with E-V13. (I loved it or not, but we all have a percentage of Ev13. Including me.)

You easy pass as West Ukrainian, for example. and maybe you are E-V13...

[Pribislav]

I don't agree with that.

Torlakian speech is between Serbian and Bulgarian, but slightly closer to Bulgarian. Not all Serbs from southern Serbia are Torlaks, they are near border with Fyrom and Bulgaria and they are known as Shopi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopi
More Shopi live in Bulgaria than in Serbia.

[MiloshN]

You easy pass as West Ukrainian, for example. and maybe you are E-V13...

I wait on results, I will know soon... (before the end of the year) And if i looks as part of the Slavs, I have a great chance to be Ev13! I loved that or not...

[Pribislav]

Pribislav, do you think Serbs look more like Romanians or Bulgarians or Macedonian Slavs on average ? I mean, which of these three look most familiar to you ?

I'm not sure for average.

Eastern Serbia like Romanians.
Southern Serbia like Bulgarians and Macedonians.
Kosovo Serbs like Macedonians and Montenegrins.

[MiloshN]

Kosovo Serbs like Macedonians and Montenegrins.
It's not me, but some of my family members.

[Pribislav]

It's not me, but some of my family members.

Native Kosovo Serbs the most remind me to Macedonians.

A lot of Montenegrins settled to Kosovo in the last 100 years, mostly to Metohija and northern Kosovo.
You have Montenegrin roots, right?

[MiloshN]

Native Kosovo Serbs the most remind me to Macedonians.

A lot of Montenegrins settled to Kosovo in the last 100 years, mostly to Metohija and northern Kosovo.
You have Montenegrin roots, right?

Ya, not sure for now, but everything says it's so ..

Ps. Native Serbs from Kosmet are they now in Vojvodina or in Hungary? :)

[Pribislav]

Ya, not sure for now, but everything says it's so ..

You don't know from which Montenegrin clan are you ancestors. Which means that migrations was long time ago.

[MiloshN]

You don't know from which Montenegrin clan are you ancestors. Which means that migrations was long time ago.

Slava says Bjelopavlic but it does not have to mean, I am waiting for DNA results as the starting point for further research.

[Pribislav]

Ps. Native Serbs from Kosmet are they now in Vojvodina or in Hungary? :)

Yes, Serbs which migrated from Kosovo in 1690 now live in Vojvodina (mostly in Banat). Some of them settled to eastern Slavonia, Hungary and present day Romanian Banat. Some Serbs from Hungary and Romania were hungarized/rumanized, and some of them moved to Vojvodina after 1918.

There was significant number of native Serbs in Kosovo until 1999. Today there is only few of them in Kosovsko Pomoravlje and Sirinićka župa.

[MiloshN]

That is the reason why there are no Serbs in Kosovo, and why is domination of E-V13, but not I2a as usual.

[Pribislav]

That is the reason why there are no Serbs in Kosovo, and why is domination of E-V13, but not I2a as usual.

Albanians and Montenegrin Brđani. :)

Without Vasojevići it would be happened albanization of Raška (Sanžak). Vasojevići with their geographical position prevented albanization of Raška. If there was no Vasojevići Sanžaklije would have physical contact with Albanians and probably they never became Bosniaks. Most of Sanžaklije are of Albanian origin, but it's good for Serbia because they became Bosniaks. Bosniaks are joke of nation. If Sanžaklije stayed Albanians Raška would be like Kosovo.

[MiloshN]

Albanians and Montenegrin Brđani. :)

Without Vasojevići it would be happened albanization of Raška (Sanžak). Vasojevići with their geographical position prevented albanization of Raška. If there was no Vasojevići Sanžaklije would have physical contact with Albanians and probably they never became Bosniaks. Most of Sanžaklije are of Albanian origin, but it's good for Serbia because they became Bosniaks. Bosniaks are joke of nation. If Sanžaklije stayed Albanians Raška would be like Kosovo.

True...

[Mikula]

Torlakian speech is between Serbian and Bulgarian, but slightly closer to Bulgarian. Not all Serbs from southern Serbia are Torlaks, they are near border with Fyrom and Bulgaria and they are known as Shopi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopi
More Shopi live in Bulgaria than in Serbia.

Finally i know where my favorite salad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopska_salad)came from!

[Pribislav]

Finally i know where my favorite salad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopska_salad)came from!

People from southern Serbia are angry when somebody say that Shopska salad is Bulgarian. :)

How you in Czechia know for Shopska salad? Is it popular there?

[Mikula]

People from southern Serbia are angry when somebody say that Shopska salad is Bulgarian. :)

How you in Czechia know for Shopska salad? Is it popular there?

Yes, it is:
You can order it in numerous restaurants here, and some people prepare it at home, too.
http://www.sportovka-bowling.cz/userFiles/jl/jl_bar.png

[Kelmendasi]

I was searching about proto Albanian language, but couldn't find informations when it was spoken, in which time? Which centuries would it be to begin with it?
The Albanian ethnogenesis is believed to have definitely occurred during the post-Roman periods. I have seen certain people say that the ethnogenesis began around 1,500 years ago, a study on IBD sharing also suggested this iirc. I have also seen a site claim that the Albanians(or the ancestral/early group of Albanians) had interacted with Latin speakers from the 2nd century BC and into the 5th century AD. In the case of the 2nd century BC it is certainly talking about the Illyrians whilst in the 5th century AD most probably the Proto-Albanians or early Albanians.

[Kelmendasi]

I was searching about proto Albanian language, but couldn't find informations when it was spoken, in which time? Which centuries would it be to begin with it?
I read into Orel's book on Proto-Albanian and he seems to suggest that early-proto-Albanian was spoken at around the 1st century AD, whilst actual Proto-Albanian was spoken between 5-7th century AD https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xvKH56aT5mEC&pg=PA1&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

[DarknessWin]

Obviously which is why we’re taller on average that northern slavics

Northern Slavs are Dwarfs , i think its their asian mix make them so short

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Northern Slavs are Dwarfs , i think its their asian mix make them so short

Not true. It's normal that Baltids are shorter. Russian North Pontids and East Nordids are tall.

[Jana]

Northern Slavs are Dwarfs , i think its their asian mix make them so short

Finno-Ugric admix in Russians made the shorther. Other northern Slavs like Poles and Czechs are not short at all.

[Jana]

Not true. It's normal that Baltids are shorter. Russian North Pontids and East Nordids are tall.

Lithuanians are tallest people in northeastern Europe, and they have lot of baltids. Finns are also pretty tall, while having lot of East Baltic individuals.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Lithuanians are tallest people in northeastern Europe, and they have lot of baltids. Finns are also pretty tall, while having lot of East Baltic individuals.

I mean pure Baltid types, other thing is Nordid + Baltid which is common in Baltic states. Nordo-Baltids can be tall such as are nordids.

[Tschaikisten]

my Ydna is Slavic as fuck


https://i.imgur.com/w1b8R7a.jpg

M2

https://i.imgur.com/jJeDa2K.png

[solaris]

He speaks about what Coon proposed

I have no idea who Coon is. My comment derives from personal 'observation'. Can you quote some text?

[Jana]

I have no idea who Coon is. My comment derives from personal 'observation'. Can you quote some text?


The Serbs are darker in pigmentation than either the Slovenes or the Croatians; 45 per cent of eyes are pure brown (Martin #2-4), as against 20 per cent which are pure or nearly pure light. Over 55 per cent have black or dark brown hair, while light browns and blonds come to less than 10 per cent. The beards are, of course, often lighter than the head hair. The skin is brunet-white or light-brown in at least a third of the total. It is unlikely that the prevalence of brunet pigmentation among the Serbs came from a Slavic source, and as we shall presently see, the high incidence of dark eyes can hardly be called Dinaric. By elimination we must suppose that the Serbs, in their sojourn in northern Macedonia. accumulated a strong brunet tendency.

-The races of Europe, Charleston Coon

[Pribislav]

-The races of Europe, Charleston Coon

Coon observation about Serbs refers actually to Montenegrins.

In his time Montenegrins were considered themselves for Serbs, and Montenegro was just region as Šumadija, Herzegovina, Banat... there was no separate nation Montenegrins.

[Skerdilaid]

Albanians and Montenegrin Brđani. :)

Without Vasojevići it would be happened albanization of Raška (Sanžak). Vasojevići with their geographical position prevented albanization of Raška. If there was no Vasojevići Sanžaklije would have physical contact with Albanians and probably they never became Bosniaks. Most of Sanžaklije are of Albanian origin, but it's good for Serbia because they became Bosniaks. Bosniaks are joke of nation. If Sanžaklije stayed Albanians Raška would be like Kosovo.

Ironic, right. They themselves were most likely Albanian (or Latin) speaking not that distantly.

[Pribislav]

Ironic, right. They themselves were most likely Albanian (or Latin) speaking not that distantly.

Ironic or not that is the fact.
Vasojevići were tampon zone for centuries between Albanians from northern Albania, Metohija and Sanžak. Albanians from Sanžak first lost language, and later they were bosniakized, because they were cut geographically from other Albanians due to Vasojevići.

Btw Vasojević E-V13 is distant from Albanian E-V13 4000 years, so there is no chance that Vasojevići have Albanian origin.

[Dick]

You are Slavs but on a genetic level I dont think you are that much more autosomally genetically slavic than for example Hungarians , but by genetic and culturally and by identity yes you are Slavs.

How genetically Slavic are Hungarians then. Doug McDonald plot me in Hungary without telling him my ethnic background. I just gave him my raw data.

https://i.imgur.com/OG2wYiO.jpg


Most likely fit is 25.9% (+- 8.4%) Europe (various subcontinents)
and 74.1% (+- 8.4%) Europe (all Southeast Europe)
which is 100% total Europe

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
most likely at the top
English= 0.276 Romania= 0.724 or
Irish= 0.217 Romania= 0.783 or
Germany= 0.252 Romania= 0.748 or
French= 0.402 Romania= 0.598

[Skerdilaid]

Ironic or not that is the fact.
Vasojevići were tampon zone for centuries between Albanians from northern Albania, Metohija and Sanžak. Albanians from Sanžak first lost language, and later they were bosniakized, because they were cut geographically from other Albanians due to Vasojevići.

Btw Vasojević E-V13 is distant from Albanian E-V13 4000 years, so there is no chance that Vasojevići have Albanian origin.

Semi argument you got there, bud. But I will go with it (some Albanian fractions of Plave and Guci identify as Boshnjaks too, it's not just sanxhaklia).


Distant 4000 years, what does that even mean?

I have seen you serbs use that argument many of times and it doesn't even make any sense, honestly. Most Albanian clans aren't even related to each other on that distance either. There is plenty of V13 diversity among us, first of all. For example Berisha (FGC33625) aren't related to Kuqi and Trieshi - Bankeqi (Z16661) within that time frame, or to Kelmendi (BY4590), Toplana and Shllaku (BY4461), Dibrri (BY4641) Gashi (PH2180), other Albanians who are FGC11450, Z2018*, CTS9320 etc and the list goes on...think before formulating your hypothesis.

Second, there are traditions that connect them to us which should be kept in mind.

[oszkar07]

How genetically Slavic are Hungarians then. Doug McDonald plot me in Hungary without telling him my ethnic background. I just gave him my raw data.

https://i.imgur.com/OG2wYiO.jpg


Most likely fit is 25.9% (+- 8.4%) Europe (various subcontinents)
and 74.1% (+- 8.4%) Europe (all Southeast Europe)
which is 100% total Europe

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
most likely at the top
English= 0.276 Romania= 0.724 or
Irish= 0.217 Romania= 0.783 or
Germany= 0.252 Romania= 0.748 or
French= 0.402 Romania= 0.598

I recall reading various estimations but cant find the article now.
I think on avg Hungarians could be autosomally at least around 30% Slavic genetically, , for example Im half Hungarian and some calculators eg dnaland , Geneplaza, My Heritage ... give me around 34 % , one of the geneplaza apps as high as 39% but thats probably over estimate.
Also in the K36 geographical map I score around 77 Poland i think 78 or 79 border of Ukraine and Romania and 74 in Croatia and Serbia.

[Jana]

Coon observation about Serbs refers actually to Montenegrins.

In his time Montenegrins were considered themselves for Serbs, and Montenegro was just region as Šumadija, Herzegovina, Banat... there was no separate nation Montenegrins.

You are wrong, Montenegrins never had contact with Macedonia. He described Montenegrins as lighter (not in hair, but skin color) than Serbs from Serbia, with lot of Borreby individuals ans with rufosity in their beards.

[Jana]

How genetically Slavic are Hungarians then. Doug McDonald plot me in Hungary without telling him my ethnic background. I just gave him my raw data.
It's obvious you are not very representative for average Serb since in K12b and pretty much everywhere else you are in Croatian cluster, precisely because you are more northern shifted than average.
Hungarians are pred. Slavic, but less than people think. Little bit over half, but it varies in different regions. They have huge western European admixture that lowers their overall Slavic ancestry.

[Pribislav]

You are wrong, Montenegrins never had contact with Macedonia. He described Montenegrins as lighter (not in hair, but skin color) than Serbs from Serbia, with lot of Borreby individuals ans with rufosity in their beards.

Montenegrins are darker than Serbs from Serbia on average.
Ask CommonSense or Moje ime if you think that I am anti-Montenegrin propagandist.

People from Užice looks central European on average, and people from Podgorica looks Med.

[MiloshN]

Albanian and Montenegrin clans should not be linked. And if they have a common ancestor, they have long been two different things ....
Ps. I am maybe E-V13, but I can not compare myself with people who burn the holy places and monasteries. It's too low.

[Jana]

Montenegrins are darker than Serbs from Serbia on average.
Ask CommonSense or Moje ime if you think that I am anti-Montenegrin propagandist.

People from Užice looks central European on average, and people from Podgorica looks Med.

I think Coon meant northern Montenegrins. I heard they differ quite from southern and eastern ones. Shouldn't they be more similar to western and bosnian Serbs ?

[MiloshN]

I think Coon meant northern Montenegrins. I heard they differ quite from southern and eastern ones. Shouldn't they be more similar to western and bosnian Serbs ?

Northen have more percentage of I2a hg.

[MiloshN]

I think Coon meant northern Montenegrins. I heard they differ quite from southern and eastern ones. Shouldn't they be more similar to western and bosnian Serbs ?
I hate my internet...

[Pribislav]

I think Coon meant northern Montenegrins. I heard they differ quite from southern and eastern ones. Shouldn't they be more similar to western and bosnian Serbs ?

They have more Balkan Borrebies and Gorids than southern Montenegins, not sure for Dinarids.

Northern montenegrins from Pljevlja https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pljevlja


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzaaX6Y_LrM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7no3nt3CbNo

[IncelSlayer]

I don't know who is more deluded,the girl who claims most hungarians aren't just slavo-balkanites, the brain dead islamic imbecile that claimed Rusalii are albanian and that albanians assimilated Vasojevic before slavs, when albanian ethnogenesis happened in some backward isolated mountain in Balkans OR the insecure serb who claims montenegrins are darker than serb,when serbs from Serbia simply look like taller bulgarians and pigmentation in Yugoslavia has a Adriatic Coast-East of Black Sea light-dark gradient.

[Jana]

I don't know who is more deluded,the girl who claims most hungarians aren't just slavo-balkanites, the brain dead islamic imbecile that claimed Rusalii are albanian and that albanians assimilated Vasojevic before slavs, when albanian ethnogenesis happened in some backward isolated mountain in Balkans OR the insecure serb who claims montenegrins are darker than serb,when serbs from Serbia simply look like taller bulgarians and pigmentation in Yugoslavia has a Adriatic Coast-East of Black Sea light-dark gradient.

German admixture in undeniable in Hungarians. That is why there are much more Gemrman faces among them than among Croats and Romanians, go and see for yourself. And 20 percent of their western R1b doesn't come from nowhere.

[Pribislav]

when serbs from Serbia simply look like taller bulgarians

Only in your dreams.
Romanians looks like Bulgarian, not Serbs.
This is how Serbs from Serbia looks like https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?253937-Serbs-from-Western-Serbia
Montenegrins shifted equally northern as Bulgarians and Romanians on average, and Serbs are more northern than all of them.

Why are you so obsessed with Yugos?
Why are you always talking about Serbs, Montenegrins, Croatians, Bosniaks, Morlachs, Dalmatia, Chetniks...?

[Pribislav]

German admixture in undeniable in Hungarians. That is why there are much more Gemrman faces among them than among Croats and Romanians, go and see for yourself. And 20 precent of their western R1b doesn't came from nowhere.

Came mostly from hungarized Danube Swabians.

[Leto]

Northern Slavs are Dwarfs , i think its their asian mix make them so short


Finno-Ugric admix in Russians made the shorther. Other northern Slavs like Poles and Czechs are not short at all.
This is pure BS. Russians are not shorter than Southern Europeans. I'm 175 and many people in Russia are taller than me.

[Jana]

This is pure BS. Russians are not shorter than Southern Europeans. I'm 175 and many people in Russia are taller than me.

I never said they are shorter than southern Europeans, but shorther than other most of northern Slavs. But southern Europeans are not all short, Greeks are quite tall for example.
In Balkans Bulgarians are shorthest Slavs.

[Kelmendasi]

Albanian and Montenegrin clans should not be linked. And if they have a common ancestor, they have long been two different things ....
Ps. I am maybe E-V13, but I can not compare myself with people who burn the holy places and monasteries. It's too low.
What do you mean they can't be linked? They had very close relations back in the day and similar customs, though only in certain aspects. As for the burning part, as if you lot didn't do the same lol. Don't play the victim, both sides did crimes

[Kelmendasi]

Ironic or not that is the fact.
Vasojevići were tampon zone for centuries between Albanians from northern Albania, Metohija and Sanžak. Albanians from Sanžak first lost language, and later they were bosniakized, because they were cut geographically from other Albanians due to Vasojevići.

Btw Vasojević E-V13 is distant from Albanian E-V13 4000 years, so there is no chance that Vasojevići have Albanian origin.
There is a slight chance, we have found Arbereshe that belong to E-PH1246 so there is a chance. Though we need to test more Albanians to know for sure. Btw there are pictures of Vasojevici in Sanxhak that are wearing the Plis, Albanian traditional hat. Not saying it's because they were certainly Albanians but it is interesting.

http://bosnjackidnk.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/viber-image.jpg

[Dick]

It's obvious you are not very representative for average Serb since in K12b and pretty much everywhere else you are in Croatian cluster, precisely because you are more northern shifted than average.
Hungarians are pred. Slavic, but less than people think. Little bit over half, but it varies in different regions. They have huge western European admixture that lowers their overall Slavic ancestry.:picard2:

[Jana]

:picard2:

What ? You are part Dalmatian Serb, with very likely Croatian admixture like many of them. And I hear your I1 subclade is alien for Serbs, which means you probably have German paternal ancestors from Banat.
If you were typical, you would cluster with your own country like I do :o

[IncelSlayer]

:picard2:

https://images3.imgbox.com/78/e2/adln6eXy_o.gif

Miss 135 IQ, tested by 2 certified psychologists, has no idea what average means, on top of that, starts and ends the sentence with a tautology

[Jana]

bla bla

Dick is atypical for Serbia, Stears is for Hungary, but nobody is as atypical for his country as you are for Romania :D
You are not atypical, but completely out of Romanian range.

[IncelSlayer]

Dick is atypical for Serbia, Stears is for Hungary, but nobody is as atypical for his country as you are for Romania :D
You are not atypical, but completely out of Romanian range.

All romanians come from Adam and Eve, only me from Trajan and Decebal.Does it make you mad that finally an ethnic romanian tested, and if we look at Romania's geographic position, we can affirm that they are the most romanian results we have? :laugh: :laugh:

[Jana]

All romanians come from Adam and Eve, only me from Trajan and Decebal.Does it make you mad that finally an ethnic romanian tested, and if we look at Romania's geographic position, we can affirm that they are the most romanian results we have? :laugh: :laugh:

Ethic Romanian poster on Anthrogenica, who has huge number of Romanian gedmatch kits (btw he is northeastern Romanian like you, but not like you genetically)

The thing is that there is regional variation within Romania. That's why the average is usually a bad idea for Romania (and most countries in Europe really).

South = Bulgaria-like (Bulgarian users: td120 and ***** plot close to the 3 South outliers. The rest of South plot close to Bulgarianx, Bulgarian 2 and then cluster with the Southeast and Southwest Romanians. Notice how Southwest starts to lean closer to West Balkans, which is in line with the history of that region.)
North = Serbia-like (Those from the Centre, Northeast and Northwest cluster with Serbs instead. That makes sense as well, because people from there are usually less "pure". Someone from those parts would definitely find at least one ancestor in the past 100 years with non-Romanian roots. Maybe a Hungarian in the Northwest and Centre and a Ruthenian/Hutsul/Rusyn/Ukrainian in Northeast and Northwest. However, there is also a continuum, that bridges the gap between the two (represented by Romanian_Central_1.) If we had more samples, that gap would probably get covered.)

By the way, that particular Southwest sample is rather West (Timis county) than Southwest, but I labelled it as such for the sake of simplicity. Otherwise, we'd have even more segmentation.

Regarding Moldovans, they should plot around Northeast Romanians, as is clearly observable from around 10 Moldovan samples in Global 25. This one sample is probably mixed or just an outlier.

[Jana]

Lack of mongoloid admix that all Moldovans (and other Romanians) have is clear sign of IncelSlayer foreign ancestry. No wonder he is in Slovak cluster...xD
Stears is more Romanian than he in genetic sense. Me too.

[IncelSlayer]

North = Serbia-like (Those from the Centre, Northeast and Northwest cluster with Serbs instead.

Ethnic North romanians are serbs?

[Dandelion]

Austrian anti-Serbian poster after the assassination of Franz Ferdinand by Gavrilo Princip.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Serbien_muss_sterbien.jpg

For some reason Dick's people have the same phenotype as opioid-addicted Chinamen. ;)

[Jana]

Ethnic North romanians are serbs?

No ofcourse, but they are genetically most similar to Serbs because they have more Slavic and central European ancestry than southern Romanians in autosomal.

[IncelSlayer]

No ofcourse, but they are genetically most similar to Serbs because they have more Slavic and central European ancestry than southern Romanians in autosomal.

Okay genius, then riddle me this, if I had any non-romanian ancestry, don't you think I would know it? :lightbul: This is why people should think before they post. You're trying to drag me down to your level, because most of your ancestry is NOT croatian, paternal serbian line, mother with serbian and jewish ancestry and the list can go on...

[Dick]

Austrian anti-Serbian poster after the assassination of Franz Ferdinand by Gavrilo Princip.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Serbien_muss_sterbien.jpg

For some reason Dick's people have the same phenotype as opioid-addicted Chinamen. ;):picard2:

[Mingle]

Okay genius, then riddle me this, if I had any non-romanian ancestry, don't you think I would know it? :lightbul: This is why people should think before they post. You're trying to drag me down to your level, because most of your ancestry is NOT croatian, paternal serbian line, mother with serbian and jewish ancestry and the list can go on...

What part of Romania are you from?

[Jana]

Okay genius, then riddle me this, if I had any non-romanian ancestry, don't you think I would know it? :lightbul: This is why people should think before they post. You're trying to drag me down to your level, because most of your ancestry is NOT croatian, paternal serbian line, mother with serbian and jewish ancestry and the list can go on...

My paternal line has absolutely nothing to do with Serbs. My father is 3/4 Croat and 1/4 Bosniak from NW Bosnia with distant origin from Western Herzegovina from Croats who converted to Islam.
And it seems my mother has no Jewish ancestry at all. She is half Croat, and other half is mix of German, Serbian and Greek.

I found out it recently and Greek member Lavrenitis was nice enough to help me identify my Greek ancestor based on their family name. He was Greek from Budapest who was adopted by Hungarian Jews and took their surname, and I mistakenly tought it was Jewish person, as did my mother. Now her results make much more sense btw.

[CommonSense]

Dick is atypical for Serbia, Stears is for Hungary, but nobody is as atypical for his country as you are for Romania :D
You are not atypical, but completely out of Romanian range.

Sorry to spoil your post, but no Romanian is as atypical as Impaler is :)

[IncelSlayer]

Sorry to spoil your post, but no Romanian is as atypical as Impaler is :)

She herself knows she's wrong, but she prefers to projects her insecurities on me because her ancestry is more diverse than the croatian flag

[Jana]

Sorry to spoil your post, but no Romanian is as atypical as Impaler is :)
Sorry, I forgot about him. Indeed he is.


She herself knows she's wrong, but she prefers to projects her insecurities on me because her ancestry is more diverse than the croatian flag
I am genetically 3/4 Croat, and I cluster with Croats. So...

[Skerdilaid]

http://bosnjackidnk.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/viber-image.jpg

Vasojevic? Hm, they look like Poles to me, I see their point now :p

PH1246 is extremely rare across all Europe, among Serbs it only expanded with Vasojevici. The other PH1246 subclade found among them is much smaller group and funny enough they too have their origins from Kuqi frontier, today’s border dividing Albania and Montegro. So ironically both groups expanded or migrated out of our relm where our clans dominated in the past.

That we haven’t yet found it among us it doesn’t mean much considering how rare this group is. As I already mentioned we have other V13 subclades that seem to as be unique and rare that only expanded during Middle Ages and beyond.

[Kelmendasi]

Vasojevic? Hm, they look like Poles to me, I see their point now :p

PH1246 is extremely rare across all Europe, among Serbs it only expanded with Vasojevici. The other PH1246 subclade found among them is much smaller group and funny enough they too have their origins from Kuqi frontier, today’s border dividing Albania and Montegro. So ironically both groups expanded or migrated out of our relm where our clans dominated in the past.

That we haven’t yet found it among us it doesn’t mean much considering how rare this group is. As I already mentioned we have other V13 subclades that seem to as unique and rare that only expanded during Middle Ages and beyond.
Agreed. We do have an Arbereshe with E-PH1246 so it is a clade present among Albanians, though high chance that it has been reduced to very small numbers since the middle ages or something.

[Mingle]

Sorry to spoil your post, but no Romanian is as atypical as Impaler is :)Where does he plot?

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

[Kelmendasi]

Where does he plot?

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk
I did a plot for him once. He was very southeastern for a Romanian, as south as Central Greek.

[Dick]

All romanians come from Adam and Eve, only me from Trajan and Decebal.Does it make you mad that finally an ethnic romanian tested, and if we look at Romania's geographic position, we can affirm that they are the most romanian results we have? :laugh: :laugh:

https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/06/59/67/ff/decebal.jpg

badass

[CommonSense]

Where does he plot?

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

Straight in the middle of nowhere, lol

https://i.imgur.com/NgilVE8.png

[DarknessWin]

This is pure BS. Russians are not shorter than Southern Europeans. I'm 175 and many people in Russia are taller than me.

I am 190 cm , in Greece 175cm people called dwarfs :picard2:

We speak about SouthEast europe and not Iberia or Italy.
Especially Balkans are the taller people on Earth and NorthEast Europeans are the Shorter people in Europe

[DarknessWin]

There is a slight chance, we have found Arbereshe that belong to E-PH1246 so there is a chance. Though we need to test more Albanians to know for sure. Btw there are pictures of Vasojevici in Sanxhak that are wearing the Plis, Albanian traditional hat. Not saying it's because they were certainly Albanians but it is interesting.

http://bosnjackidnk.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/viber-image.jpg

These people look 100% caucasians.
Look at that huge heads and short body

[Kelmendasi]

These people look 100% caucasians.
Look at that huge heads and short body
The ones standing are kids lol. They are Serbs btw or at least that is what the image says

[DarknessWin]

The ones standing are kids lol. They are Serbs btw or at least that is what the image says

Maybe Kosovars

[Pribislav]

The ones standing are kids lol. They are Serbs btw or at least that is what the image says

Many Albanians claim that they are serbized/montenegrized Albanians, because they are E-V13 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasojevići

[Kelmendasi]

Many Albanians claim that they are serbized/montenegrized Albanians, because they are E-V13 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasojevići
Oh so now that somebody calls them Caucasian looking and short you don't want them as Serbs anymore xD

[Pribislav]

Oh so now that somebody calls them Caucasian looking and short you don't want them as Serbs anymore xD

I did not say that.

Montenegrin tribes from Brda were mixed with Albanians, this is the fact. They even had similar costumes as Albanians, they are similar to Albanians in term of mentality and culture.
Marko Miljanović said that he have "Albanian" and "Serbian" blood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marko_Miljanov

[Kelmendasi]

I did not say that.

Montenegrin tribes from Brda were mixed with Albanians, this is the fact. They even had similar costumes as Albanians, they are similar to Albanians in term of mentality and culture.
Marko Miljanović said that he have "Albanian" and "Serbian" blood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marko_Miljanov
Ok but why now that he called the Vasojevici men short and Caucasian looking, you are so determined in pushing how Albanians influenced the Brda Slavs? I didn't see you doing this before, especially not for the Vasojevici. I agree that they have Albanian blood and influence

[Robocop]

Fair enough , but I imagine Ottoman occupation left some cultural impact.

In my opinion Turks didnt left any cultural impact on Serbia except they revealed to Serbs and to all Europeans who will always remain mortal enemies of Europe; Turks.

Cheers

[Friends of Oliver Society]

In my opinion Turks didnt left any cultural impact on Serbia except they revealed to Serbs and all to Europeans who will always remain mortal enemies of Europe; Turks.

Cheers

This Turk is real chill.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP8sxBno1iw

People across the globe are real chill when they put reason over nonsense.

[Pribislav]

All Snow Mexicans look the same to me.

Hello Fractal! :)

This is you 50 reincarnation!!! :clap:

What means "Snow Mexicans"?

[oszkar07]

In my opinion Turks didnt left any cultural impact on Serbia except they revealed to Serbs and all to Europeans who will always remain mortal enemies of Europe; Turks.

Cheers

da nista! .... except ....

The territory of what is now the Republic of Serbia was part of the Ottoman Empire throughout the Early Modern period, especially Central Serbia, unlike Vojvodina which has passed to Habsburg rule starting from the end of the 17th century (with several takeovers of Central Serbia as well). Ottoman culture significantly influenced the region, in architecture, cuisine, language, and dress, especially in arts, and Islam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Serbia

[Jana]

In my opinion Turks didnt left any cultural impact on Serbia except they revealed to Serbs and all to Europeans who will always remain mortal enemies of Europe; Turks.

Cheers

Ofcourse they did, and it would be impossible they did not. They did not leave genetic impact.
It is the same to say Venetians did not leave any cultural impact on southern Croats, and they ruled them similary long as Turks ruled Serbs.

It is not pleasant to say because Turks are hated, but it is the truth.

[Pribislav]

My paternal line has absolutely nothing to do with Serbs.

You father have match in y dna with Serb from western Bosnia! :)

[Bosniensis]

You father have match in y dna with Serb from western Bosnia! :)

That's because Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks are A SINGLE NATION divided on religious lines... everyone has relatives among bosniaks, serbs, croats it's just people are not aware of that.

[Pribislav]

That's because Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks are A SINGLE NATION divided on religious lines... everyone has relatives among bosniaks, serbs, croats it's just people are not aware of that.

Same people of 3 religions. :) :coffee:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Bosnia_Herzegovina_Ethnic_2013.png

[Robocop]

Ofcourse they did, and it would be impossible they did not. They did not leave genetic impact.
It is the same to say Venetians did not leave any cultural impact on southern Croats, and they ruled them similary long as Turks ruled Serbs.

It is not pleasant to say because Turks are hated, but it is the truth.

Sure that Turks left some of their words in Serbia like for example; Kalemegdan etc..., one of the most known sites (fortress) in Belgrade, but my point was that Serbia is largerly under Orthodox culture (Orthodox identity in Serbia is hardcore Orthodox, maybe even more than in Russia), most similar to Russia and Greece, something in between those two culturally.

Turks would have left more of cultural impact on Serbia if Serbs didnt erased those impacts long time ago, with every reason and I salute them for that.

Just like I salute all Greeks for destroying all remaining Mosques across Athens after Ottomans left.

No reason for them to be there.

How many churces did Turks built in Turkey or Gulf Arabs for Christian Arabs? Answer; ZERO.

Just so that all Europeans and all non-Muslims in general knows who they dealing with.

P.S. The only mistake Serbs ever did (after Ottomans were defeated) is that they never converted IN FORCE those people in their region of Raška (Sandzak) back to Christianity, now they have to deal with those fanatics down there. Now those people from Raška region are sayin "they're Bosniaks", THEY ARE NOT BOSNIAKS, EVEN BOSNIAKS FROM BOSNIA KNOWS THIS, those people from Raška are totally Serbs who got converted, nothing more nothin less.

Serbs should have followed Spaniard example in Reconquista.

[Robocop]

That's because Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks are A SINGLE NATION divided on religious lines... everyone has relatives among bosniaks, serbs, croats it's just people are not aware of that.

That's the main propaganda from Bosniaks for people in Bosnia; that all Bosnian people "are ONE BOSNIAN NATION", well man, that's just not true.

I support Bosnia and Herzegovina as a state of three nations (something like Switzerland), and you cannot convince Catholics and Orthodox there that they're Bosniaks or BOSNIANS, until you realize that and your govermont, you dont have to wonder why Serbs want their part of Bosnia.

I've heard that propaganda from one of your most prestigious intellectuals in Bosnia, watching your Bosnian TV, how they're sayin that ALL BOSNIANS (DOESNT MATTER OF RELIGION) ARE BOSNIAN NATION.

Jesus Christ, and how do you expect peace in Bosnia after such DAILY STATEMENTS, please tell me?

[Jana]

You father have match in y dna with Serb from western Bosnia! :)

Yes :) But the line is Croatian :p

[Pribislav]

Some Serbian Orthodox customs.

Swimming for holy cross (in frozen river in january)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwMmLVu0l-8


Burning of the Badnjak https://en.wikipedia.org/weki/Badnjak_(Serbian) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badnjak_(Serbian))


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyghDBHA3rk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pginGIInhkU

[Robocop]

Some Serbian Orthodox customs.

Swimming for holly cross (in frozen river in january)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwMmLVu0l-8


Burning of the Badnjak https://en.wikipedia.org/weki/Badnjak_(Serbian) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badnjak_(Serbian))


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyghDBHA3rk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pginGIInhkU

My ex-wife was Serbian, today we are in friend relation with each other which is good, and I saw all of your Orthodox customs when I would go to visit her parents.

You have such strong Orthodox identity that sometimes I was thinking to myself; "Jesus Christ we Catholics (all Catholics not just Croats) are not this connected to our religion like Serbs are connected to their Orthodoxy".

No one ever said to me wrong word there, I respected their (your) customs and they respected my Catholic customs, that is the only way of peace, and the only truth of our Christian identity, to be united when it's needed.

Enough of blood between 2 churces, it is time to rise TWO FLAGS TOGETHAR AGAIN; CATHOLIC AND ORTHODOX, and to go against those who want destruction OF US BOTH!

[Pribislav]

My ex-wife was Serbian, today we are in friend relation with each other which is good, and I saw all of your Orthodox customs when I would go to visit her parents.

You have such strong Orthodox identity that sometimes I was thinking to myself; "Jesus Christ we Catholics (all Catholics not just Croats) are not this connected to our religion like Serbs are connected to their Orthodoxy".

No one ever said to me wrong word there, I respected their (your) customs and they respected my Catholic customs, that is the only way of peace, and the only truth of our Christian identity, to be united when it's needed.

Enough of blood between 2 churces, it is time to rise TWO FLAGS TOGETHAR AGAIN; CATHOLIC AND ORTHODOX, and to go against those who want destruction OF US BOTH!

:thumb001:

[Jana]

True. And in 2054 western and eastern Church need to unite again, symbolically after 1000 years of divison that was weakening Europe. Jesus wanted united Church. Let it be, if God will it.

[Pribislav]

Yes :) But the line is Croatian :p

Since when I2-PH908 is exclusively Croatian?

[Jana]

Since when I2-PH908 is exclusively Croatian?

I never said it, plus PH908 has many subbranches under it. I said my dad is completely Croat genetically, because in Serb DNA project where are thousands of PH908 Serbs and he only match one of them. Plus his all other matches are Croats from Dalmatia and Herzegovina and one southern Italian (Molisse Croat ancestry probably), plus surname associated with Y is almost entirely Croatian. Plus on autosomal dna he is Croatian as hell. That's it :)


Pezići u Hrvatskoj gotovo su u potpunosti Hrvati, najvećim dijelom iz banjalučke regije (BiH), a prema nekim izvorima iz Dalmatinske Zagore. Vrlo rijetko su i Bošnjaci. U prošlom stoljeću relativno najviše hrvatskih stanovnika s ovim prezimenom rođeno je u Banjalučkoj Regiji, BiH (područje Banje Luke) i u Gradu Zagrebu.

Single Population Sharing:

1 Croat (Croatia) 2.88
2 Croat (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 3.51
3 Bosnian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 3.54
4 Serbian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 3.68
5 Slovenian (Slovenia) 4.03

[Jana]

And look at these orthodox cunts filled with hatred towards other Christians. Robocop watch and open your naive eyes.
https://i.imgur.com/l6f2cy7.png

[Pribislav]

I never said it, plus PH908 has many subbranches under it. I said my dad is completely Croat genetically, because in Serb DNA project where are thousands of PH908 Serbs and he only match one of them. Plus his all other matches are Croats from Dalmatia and Herzegovina and one southern Italian (Molisse Croat ancestry probably), plus surname associated with Y is almost entirely Croatian. Plus on autosomal dna he is Croatian as hell. That's it :)



Single Population Sharing:

1 Croat (Croatia) 2.88
2 Croat (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 3.51
3 Bosnian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 3.54
4 Serbian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 3.68
5 Slovenian (Slovenia) 4.03

Peternal origin (haploogroup) is not related with autosomal.

Burgenland Croatians are autosomally closer to Austrians that to Croatians from Croatia. But their haplogroups are different than Austrian one, they have matches among Croatians from Croatia. I have seen one Burgenland Croatian which have match with many Serbs, probably there is more such cases.

[Jana]

Peternal origin (haploogroup) is not related with autosomal.

Burgenland Croatians are autosomally closer to Austrians that to Croatians from Croatia. But their haplogroups are different than Austrian one, they have matches among Croatians from Croatia. I have seen one Burgenland Croatian which have match with many Serbs, probably there is more such cases.

Yes, but most logical explanation is that Serbian from western Bosnia has paternal Croatian origin. Would you not agree ? As we said, part of Herzegovina Croats have orthodox Serbian origin, and part of Bosnian Serbs have Catholic Croatian origin.

[Pribislav]

Yes, but most logical explanation is that Serbian from western Bosnia has paternal Croatian origin. Would you not agree ? As we said, part of Herzegovina Croats have orthodox Serbian origin, and part of Bosnian Serbs have Catholic Croatian origin.

I don't exclude such a possibility, but stronger evidence is needed. Everything is possible.
Serbs from western Bosnia and Krajina which most likely have Catholic origin carry R1a-Z280>Y2613. Because that haplogroup is specific and common among chakavian Croatians. For other haplogroups is more complicated and difficult...

Btw it's not weird match of Croatian from Burgenland with Serbs. Serbian minority exist in Croatia in the middle age, and when Croatians migrated towards the Burgenland Serbs which lived near them joined to them.
When Bulgarian tsar Simeon occupied Serbia in early 10th century half of Serbian population and almost all nobility moved to Croatia as refugees. When Simeon died and Bulgarian empire colapsed most of Serbs returned to Serbia, but some of them stayed. Serbian migrations to territory of medieval Croatia were recorded in 13th, 14th and 15th century. For example in late 14th and early 15th century a lot of Serbs arrived to northern Dalmatia. Many villages near Knin had Serbian Orthodox majority in 15th century. Serbs which settled there in 14th and 15th century migrated together with Croatians to Dalmatian islands, Gorski Kotar, Kvarner, Burgenland and Molise when Ottomans arrived.

[Jana]

I don't exclude such a possibility, but stronger evidence is needed. Everything is possible.
Serbs from western Bosnia and Krajina which most likely have Catholic origin carry R1a-Z280>Y2613. Because that haplogroup is specific and common among chakavian Croatians. For other haplogroups is more complicated and difficult...

Btw it's not weird match of Croatian from Burgenland with Serbs. Serbian minority exist in Croatia in the middle age, and when Croatians migrated towards the Burgenland Serbs which lived near them joined to them.
When Bulgarian tsar Simeon occupied Serbia in early 10th century half of Serbian population and almost all nobility moved to Croatia as refugees. When Simeon died and Bulgarian empire colapsed most of Serbs returned to Serbia, but some of them stayed. Serbian migrations to territory of medieval Croatia were recorded in 13th, 14th and 15th century. For example in late 14th and early 15th century a lot of Serbs arrived to northern Dalmatia. Many villages near Knin had Serbian Orthodox majority in 15th century. Serbs which settled there in 14th and 15th century migrated together with Croatians to Dalmatian islands, Gorski Kotar, Kvarner, Burgenland and Molise when Ottomans arrived.

Very interesting, thanks. :)

[Pribislav]

Very interesting, thanks. :)

One interesting thing.
In Kosovo near Knin https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_polje_(Dalmacija) in year 1435 are recorded Serbian inhabitants Nikola Dujanović, Milutin Kupeor, Jovan Vlatković and Simeon Budojević. In year 1487 also in Dalmatian Kosovo is recorded Serbian inhabitant Đorđe Marković.
Croatians with surname Budojević live today in Križevci and Bjelovar https://actacroatica.com/en/surname/Budojević
In recent time there was no surnames Dujanović, Kupeor, Vlatković, Budojević and Marković among Serbs from Dalmatian Kosovo. Because present day Serbs from Dalmatian Kosovo or which lived there until recently are from Serbs which came there in 16th and 17th century. Serbs from Dalmatian Kosovo which lived there in 14th and 15th century such surnames which I mentioned migrated together with Croatians to the northwest, west and island when Ottomans arrived in 1522. It's possible that Serbs Budojevići from Dalmatian Kosovo together with local Croatian migrated in 1522 because of Ottomans to northwestern Croatia and Croatians Budojevići from Križevci and Bjelovar are from them.