Ancient genomes suggest the eastern Pontic-Caspian steppe as the source of western Iron Age nomads

[Token]

http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/10/eaat4457

Unlike previous studies, Scythians here appears to be most closely related to both Southern and Northern European populations and, to a lesser extent, North Caucasians. All of the Scythian and Sarmatian samples, except for one, are R1b.

http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/advances/4/10/eaat4457/F1.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

PCA on the autosomal genomic data (Fig. 1C and table S5) revealed the following: (i) Srubnaya-Alakulskaya individuals exhibited genetic affinity to northern and northeastern present-day Europeans (fig. S3), and these results were also consistent with outgroup f3 statistics (table S6 and fig. S4A). (ii) The Cimmerian individuals, representing the time period of transition from Bronze to Iron Age, were not homogeneous regarding their genetic similarities to present-day populations according to the PCA. F3 statistics confirmed the heterogeneity of these individuals in comparison with present-day populations (table S6 and figs. S3 and S4C). (iii) The Scythians reported in this study, from the core Scythian territory in the North Pontic steppe (12), showed high intragroup diversity. In the PCA, they are positioned as four visually distinct groups compared to the gradient of present-day populations (Fig. 1C): (i) A group of three individuals (scy009, scy010, and scy303) showed genetic affinity to north European populations, hereafter referred to as a north European (NE) cluster. (ii) A group of four individuals (scy192, scy197, scy300, and scy305) showed genetic similarities to southern European populations, hereafter referred to as a south European (SE) cluster. (iii) A group of three individuals (scy006, scy011, and scy193) located between the genetic variation of Mordovians and populations of the North Caucasus, hereafter referred to as a steppe cluster (SC). In addition, one Srubnaya-Alakulskaya individual (kzb004), the most recent Cimmerian (cim357), and all Sarmatians fell within this cluster. In contrast to the Scythians, and despite being from opposite ends of the Pontic-Caspian steppe, the five Sarmatians grouped close together in this cluster. (iv) A group of three Scythians (scy301, scy304, and scy311) formed a discrete group between the SC and SE and had genetic affinities to present-day Bulgarian, Greek, Croatian, and Turkish populations, hereafter referred to as a central cluster (CC). All PCA results were consistent with outgroup f3 statistics (table S6 and figs. S3 and S4, B and D). Finally, one individual from a Scythian cultural context (scy332) is positioned outside of the modern West Eurasian genetic variation (Fig. 1C) but shared genetic drift with East Asian populations (table S6 and fig. S4B).

[Token]

bump

[Kelmendasi]

Interesting that one of the Cimmerian samples was Q1a, the other was R1b which was expected. What were the Cimmerians like autosomally going by this?

[Wrong]

Interesting that one of the Cimmerian samples was Q1a, the other was R1b which was expected. What were the Cimmerians like autosomally going by this?
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DirtyAnimatedIraniangroundjay-small.gif

[Polish phenotypes]

Incredible information, thank you for sharing

[Token]

Interesting that one of the Cimmerian samples was Q1a, the other was R1b which was expected. What were the Cimmerians like autosomally going by this?

Cimmerians were very mixed with South Asian and East Eurasian elements.

[Kelmendasi]

Cimmerians were very mixed with South Asian and East Eurasian elements.
Interesting, the east Eurasian element explains the Q1a. They're supposed to be Iranic speakers iirc. I would've expected them to be like the Scythians

[Jana]

How do you explain Schyntians fail into 4 different genetic clusters ? That is very suprising, even considering we knew they were diverse genetically. What about Sarmatians, who are they closest to , how do they differ from Schyntians ?

[Token]

Interesting, the east Eurasian element explains the Q1a. They're supposed to be Iranic speakers iirc. I would've expected them to be like the Scythians

I'm starting to doubt if Scythians were Iranic speakers. They apparently originated from Eastern Yamnaya, not Srubnaya or Sintashta.

[Kelmendasi]

One of the Cimmerian samples plotted with the Scythians and Sarmatians whilst the other plotted with peoples from Iron Age Altai region. "the Cimmerians appear in the Pontic-Caspian steppe. In the PCA, the chronologically youngest Cimmerian individual (cim357) grouped within the SC including all Sarmatians, one Srubnaya-Alakulskaya individual, and three Scythian individuals. The other Cimmerian individuals were positioned in close proximity to a number of eastern Iron Age individuals from the Altai region". Really interesting

[Kelmendasi]

http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/advances/4/10/eaat4457/F2.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/advances/4/10/eaat4457/F3.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

[Kelmendasi]

I'm starting to doubt if Scythians were Iranic speakers. They apparently originated from Eastern Yamnaya, not Srubnaya or Sintashta.
What do you believe they were? Linguistics does seem to suggest Indo-Iranic though in terms of Ydna we have yet to see R1a-Z93, which is associated with Indo-Iranic

[Kelmendasi]

Apparently the Cimmerians tested were actually people from the Chernogorovka culture, not everybody agrees that they were the same as Cimmerians though. According to this study the Cimmerians may have come to the Steppe region as nomads from east Asia. The Q1a individual that had high east Asian like admix was from the Q-M120 clade of Q1a, this is an exclusively east Asian clade so perhaps it's an outlier?

[Token]

What do you believe they were? Linguistics does seem to suggest Indo-Iranic though in terms of Ydna we have yet to see R1a-Z93, which is associated with Indo-Iranic

There are not enough linguistic evidences to classify them as Iranic with certainty. This paper indirectly suggests something else, see how they never referred to Scythians and Sarmatians as Iranic here.

[Kelmendasi]

There are not enough evidences to classify them as Iranic with certainty. This paper indirectly suggests something else, see how they never referred to Scythians and Sarmatians as Iranic here.
True. What do you think they spoke when it comes to a branch of IE?

[Kelmendasi]

Interesting. "A group of three Scythians (scy301, scy304, and scy311) formed a discrete group between the SC and SE and had genetic affinities to present-day Bulgarian, Greek, Croatian, and Turkish populations"

[Token]

True. What do you think they spoke when it comes to a branch of IE?

If not Iranic, probably a unknown Centum branch.

[Jana]

Interesting. "A group of three Scythians (scy301, scy304, and scy311) formed a discrete group between the SC and SE and had genetic affinities to present-day Bulgarian, Greek, Croatian, and Turkish populations"

Do you know where these Schyntians were from ?

[Kelmendasi]

Do you know where these Schyntians were from ?
They were from Glinoe, Moldova

[Kelmendasi]

https://indo-european.eu/2018/10/iranian-nomadic-tribes-also-show-steppe-nomadic-pastoralist-y-dna-bottlenecks-and-r1b-l23/

[Jana]

They were from Glinoe, Moldova

Thanks! Very interesting :) Do you know their YDNA subclades ?

[Kelmendasi]

Thanks! Very interesting :) Do you know their YDNA subclades ?
R1b-M269/R1b1a1a2 was noted, though most probably M269>L23>Z2103.

[Jana]

R1b-M269/R1b1a1a2 was noted, though most probably M269>L23>Z2103.

Sorry for my ignorance, but where exactly are these subclades most common today ?

[Impaler]

Cimmerians were very mixed with South Asian and East Eurasian elements.

Do you think I am one of them?

[Kelmendasi]

Sorry for my ignorance, but where exactly are these subclades most common today ?
R1b-Z2103 and it's subclades today is most common in Armenians and certain areas near the Russian border with Kazakhstan. In terms of Europe, it is most common among Albanians and some other groups like Bulgarians, in Albanians the BY611 clade dominates, a clade that seems western Balkan in origin.

[Wrong]

R1b-Z2103 and it's subclades today is most common in Armenians and certain areas near the Russian border with Kazakhstan. In terms of Europe, it is most common among Albanians and some other groups like Bulgarians, in Albanians the BY611 clade dominates, a clade that seems western Balkan in origin.
Yeah. Predating Bell Beakers by a long period of time.

[Tschaikisten]

Interesting. "A group of three Scythians (scy301, scy304, and scy311) formed a discrete group between the SC and SE and had genetic affinities to present-day Bulgarian, Greek, Croatian, and Turkish populations"

Actually, scy010 is clossest to Croatian sample.

https://i.imgur.com/haYo3Nm.png

[Kelmendasi]

Actually, scy010 is clossest to Croatian sample.

[IG]https://i.imgur.com/haYo3Nm.png[/IMG]
The paper suggested those three, perhaps they were closest for other reasons

[Wrong]

The paper suggested those three, perhaps they were closest for other reasons
IBD?

[Kelmendasi]

IBD?
Not sure, it could just be clustering but it could also be something else. The paper says that those Scythians had "genetic affinities" with the mentioned groups

[Token]

How do you explain Schyntians fail into 4 different genetic clusters ? That is very suprising, even considering we knew they were diverse genetically. What about Sarmatians, who are they closest to , how do they differ from Schyntians ?

Sarmatians from this paper have more East Eurasian and CHG than Scythians. The heterogeneity of the Scythians is really intriguing, here are some commentaries by the researchers:

“There is so much genetic variation among the Scythians, it seems that you didn’t have to be born a Scyth to be a part of their community”, says Anders Götherström, Professor at the Department of Archaeology and Classical Studies, Stockholm University.

This is likely the strategy needed for the group to have been able to grow as fast, expand as vast and to remain established for as long as they did. The findings emphasize the importance of assimilation to maintain Scythian dominance around the Black Sea region.

“It also sheds light on their attitude towards conquered people. Scythians are often thought of as an extremely aggressive group, but their gradual genetic expansion show us that they were also a group prepared to interact with and take in new people. For example, in one burial ground we found individuals of different genetic background buried according to Scythian tradition. This tells us that Scythians seem to have incorporated people from other groups into their families and their community”, says Maja Krzewińska researcher at the Department of Archaeology and Classical Studies, Stockholm University.

The vast area of the Pontic-Caspian Steppe region has worked as a motor for demographic events throughout Eurasia, especially in the western part of the meta-continent. Crucial events in European history and prehistory can be traced back to people of the Steppe. Including the invention of horseback riding, chariots, a new type of warfare and the spread of Indo-European languages.

“The Central Eurasian Steppe seems to have been a very dynamic place. An important geographical region which acted both as a melting-pot and a nursery of people, as well as communicative and technological innovations. This is where people met, shared ideas and genes. From this ‘pit-stop’ genes and ideas were spread from the East to the West”, says Gülşah Merve Kılınç researcher at the Department of Archaeology and Classical Studies, Stockholm University.

An international research team, led from Stockholm University, have investigated genomic data from 35 individuals, spanning 2 200 years. The material mainly consists of human remains from the southern Urals and central Eurasian Steppe. The researchers have analyzed DNA from four different nomadic groups; Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians and Bronze Age Srubanya individuals.

Even though a couple of the groups had an early history somewhere else all the groups share genetic background and follow each other chronologically. The Cimmerians were displaced by the Scythians and those in return were followed by the Sarmatians.

“It’s not one group completely displacing another. The expansion process seems to have been more gradual. First from Altai to southern Urals, and thereafter further west. It suggests that the Pontic-Caspian Steppe served as a natural transition point and the source of western nomads, despite their cultural roots stretching further east”, says Maja Krzewińska researcher at the Department of Archaeology and Classical Studies, Stockholm University.

[Token]

Scythians originated from Eastern Yamnaya. Someone analysed the BAM files and two Z2103 were confirmed. Also one P312, and this sample also clusters with North-Central Europeans - could be a assimilated Hallstatt Celt. One of the Scythians was E1b and clustered with Southern Europeans.

[Kelmendasi]

Scythians originated from Eastern Yamnaya. Someone analysed the BAM files and two Z2103 were confirmed. Also one P312, and this sample also clusters with North-Central Europeans - could be a assimilated Hallstatt Celt. One of the Scythians was E1b and clustered with Southern Europeans.
Weird thing is that the E-V13 Scythian is actually noted as R1b-M269 in the actual study. Same goes for the I2a-Y7219 Scythian which was also noted as R1b-M269 by the study. Perhaps the analysis of the BAM file by Semargl isn't completely accurate? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bnVJujBs_bQu_dqSVi_dSXUuz9gNIYFX_XlqRrz92mo/edit#gid=0

[Bardock]

All the samples so far with subclades: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bnVJujBs_bQu_dqSVi_dSXUuz9gNIYFX_XlqRrz92mo/edit#gid=0

Some Gedmatch results of some samples:

Scy:009 on Gedmatch Genesis
AG3897943

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 27.04
2 North_Sea 20.12
3 Eastern_Euro 17.31
4 Atlantic 14.47
5 West_Med 12.41
6 Red_Sea 3.35
7 Sub-Saharan 3.05
8 West_Asian 1.64
9 East_Med 0.59

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Ukrainian 7.18
2 Ukrainian_Lviv 7.32
3 South_Polish 7.95
4 Polish 8.8
5 Croatian 9.41
6 Russian_Smolensk 10.28
7 Estonian_Polish 10.67
8 Moldavian 10.92
9 Belorussian 11.16
10 Southwest_Russian 11.18
11 Ukrainian_Belgorod 11.21
12 Hungarian 11.74
13 Estonian 12.98
14 East_German 13.29
15 Lithuanian 13.43
16 Kargopol_Russian 14.02
17 Austrian 14.13
18 Finnish 15.08
19 Southwest_Finnish 15.34
20 East_Finnish 15.41

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.1% Ukrainian + 7.9% Sardinian @ 6.03
2 91.7% Ukrainian + 8.3% Mozabite_Berber @ 6.04
3 96.9% Ukrainian + 3.1% Yoruban @ 6.12


Scy10

JA5383158

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 22.21
2 Baltic 19.94
3 Eastern_Euro 17.21
4 Atlantic 16.42
5 West_Med 10.25
6 West_Asian 7.42
7 Sub-Saharan 2.62
8 East_Med 1.91
9 Northeast_African 1.53
10 Red_Sea 0.48

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Croatian 6.81
2 Hungarian 7.2
3 Moldavian 7.56
4 East_German 8.08
5 South_Polish 8.16
6 Ukrainian_Lviv 8.57
7 Ukrainian 8.64
8 Austrian 9.17
9 Polish 10.1
10 Serbian 11.57
11 Russian_Smolensk 12.11
12 Ukrainian_Belgorod 12.33
13 Southwest_Finnish 12.43
14 Southwest_Russian 12.63
15 Finnish 13.02
16 Estonian_Polish 13.86
17 Belorussian 14.12
18 East_Finnish 14.14
19 Kargopol_Russian 14.55
20 Estonian 14.66

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 53.1% Moldavian + 46.9% East_German @ 5.26
2 67.8% Moldavian + 32.2% Southwest_Finnish @ 5.37
3 73.3% East_German + 26.7% Erzya @ 5.45
4 61.7% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 38.3% French @ 5.49
5 74.6% Moldavian + 25.4% North_Swedish @ 5.49
6 79.2% Croatian + 20.8% North_Swedish @ 5.53
7 65.2% East_German + 34.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 5.55
8 66.3% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 33.7% Spanish_Galicia @ 5.6
9 60.3% Croatian + 39.7% East_German @ 5.65
10 82.8% Croatian + 17.2% Norwegian @ 5.67
11 78.5% Moldavian + 21.5% Norwegian @ 5.69
12 84.7% Croatian + 15.3% West_Norwegian @ 5.69
13 77.8% Moldavian + 22.2% Swedish @ 5.72
14 53.1% East_German + 46.9% Ukrainian @ 5.72
15 82.4% Croatian + 17.6% Swedish @ 5.72
16 80.9% Moldavian + 19.1% West_Norwegian @ 5.76
17 73.4% Ukrainian + 26.6% French @ 5.77
18 79% Moldavian + 21% Danish @ 5.8
19 66.6% East_German + 33.4% Southwest_Russian @ 5.81
20 79% South_Polish + 21% Spanish_Galicia @ 5.82


ext Ukrainian Scy:011

ZU1965664

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 24.63
2 West_Asian 19.03
3 West_Med 15.41
4 Eastern_Euro 12.35
5 Atlantic 8
6 South_Asian 4.53
7 Amerindian 4.36
8 Siberian 4.04
9 Sub-Saharan 2.75
10 Baltic 2.65
11 Northeast_African 1.86
12 Oceanian 0.39


Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Serbian 22.01
2 Romanian 22.56
3 Moldavian 22.63
4 West_German 22.72
5 Hungarian 23.41
6 French 23.57
7 East_German 23.71
8 South_Dutch 24.14
9 Bulgarian 24.46
10 Austrian 25.17
11 Croatian 25.28
12 Spanish_Galicia 25.31
13 Tatar 25.39
14 Greek_Thessaly 25.64
15 North_Italian 26.16
16 Portuguese 26.32
17 North_German 26.51
18 Southwest_English 26.77
19 Tuscan 27.09
20 Nogay 27.21

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.7% Spanish_Galicia + 45.3% Tabassaran @ 14.32
2 57.5% French + 42.5% Tabassaran @ 14.59
3 59% West_German + 41% Tabassaran @ 14.64
4 57.1% West_German + 42.9% Tadjik @ 14.7
5 60.3% West_German + 39.7% Afghan_Tadjik @ 14.92
6 63.5% West_German + 36.5% Balkar @ 15
7 57.1% West_German + 42.9% Nogay @ 15.03
8 62.8% West_German + 37.2% Chechen @ 15.12
9 65.3% West_German + 34.7% Ossetian @ 15.15
10 53.4% Portuguese + 46.6% Tabassaran @ 15.16
11 52.8% Southwest_English + 47.2% Tabassaran @ 15.23
12 63.1% West_German + 36.9% Afghan_Pashtun @ 15.24
13 63.4% West_German + 36.6% Kabardin @ 15.3
14 56.8% South_Dutch + 43.2% Tabassaran @ 15.32
15 61.9% West_German + 38.1% Lezgin @ 15.33
16 55.8% French + 44.2% Tadjik @ 15.33
17 54.1% Southwest_English + 45.9% Afghan_Tadjik @ 15.47
18 59.1% French + 40.9% Afghan_Tadjik @ 15.51
19 50.8% Southwest_English + 49.2% Tadjik @ 15.51
20 56.3% Norwegian + 43.7% Balkar @ 15.54


Cimmerian357
HA5642706

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Swedish 16.36
2 Norwegian 16.73
3 West_Norwegian 16.86
4 Swedish 17.08
5 Danish 18.85
6 North_Dutch 18.95
7 Orcadian 19.12
8 West_German 19.26
9 North_German 20.11
10 West_Scottish 20.54
11 Irish 21.2
12 Southeast_English 21.26
13 Finnish 21.29
14 Southwest_Finnish 21.6
15 Southwest_English 21.66
16 South_Dutch 22.39
17 East_German 23.44
18 East_Finnish 24.19
19 Hungarian 24.84
20 French 25.2

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 78.1% West_Norwegian + 21.9% Afghan_Tadjik @ 12.92
2 78.5% West_Norwegian + 21.5% Afghan_Uzbeki @ 13.06
3 78.4% West_Norwegian + 21.6% Afghan_Turkmen @ 13.13
4 82.1% West_Norwegian + 17.9% Burusho @ 13.16
5 79.6% West_Norwegian + 20.4% Afghan_Hazara @ 13.25
6 77.6% West_Norwegian + 22.4% Tadjik @ 13.26
7 80.1% West_Norwegian + 19.9% Afghan_Pashtun @ 13.37
8 83.2% West_Norwegian + 16.8% Shors @ 13.4
9 80% West_Norwegian + 20% Uzbeki @ 13.47
10 82.3% West_Norwegian + 17.7% Kalash @ 13.49
11 81.8% West_Norwegian + 18.2% Hazara @ 13.57
12 82.8% West_Norwegian + 17.2% Pathan @ 13.58
13 84.4% West_Norwegian + 15.6% Hakas @ 13.62
14 83% West_Norwegian + 17% Punjabi_Jat @ 13.69
15 86.7% West_Norwegian + 13.3% Ket @ 13.73
16 87.1% West_Norwegian + 12.9% Selkup @ 13.74
17 80.2% Norwegian + 19.8% Afghan_Tadjik @ 13.8
18 84.6% West_Norwegian + 15.4% Sindhi @ 13.81
19 83.6% West_Norwegian + 16.4% Brahui @ 13.83
20 83.4% West_Norwegian + 16.6% Balochi @ 13.87
# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 42.07
2 Eastern_Euro 13.13
3 Atlantic 12.88
4 West_Asian 7.14
5 Siberian 6.74
6 South_Asian 6.26
7 Baltic 5.31
8 Northeast_African 4.28
9 Red_Sea 1.91
10 Amerindian 0.28


Cimmerian359
FN2312934

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Afghan_Turkmen 17.28
2 Tatar 17.93
3 Mari 19.57
4 Chuvash 20.38
5 Shors 20.39
6 Uzbeki 20.73
7 Afghan_Hazara 23.98
8 Hakas 24.19
9 Hazara 24.99
10 Uygur 26.74
11 Nogay 27.81
12 East_Finnish 30.23
13 Altaian 30.79
14 Kargopol_Russian 32
15 Tadjik 32.11
16 Afghan_Uzbeki 32.12
17 Afghan_Tadjik 32.3
18 Erzya 32.71
19 Finnish 33.05
20 Ket 34.33

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 69.4% Tatar + 30.6% Saqqaq @ 6.9
2 53.7% Tatar + 46.3% Shors @ 7.09
3 67.5% Shors + 32.5% North_German @ 7.25
4 66.1% Shors + 33.9% East_German @ 7.35
5 58.5% Tatar + 41.5% Hakas @ 7.48
6 64.3% Shors + 35.7% Southwest_Finnish @ 7.49
7 65.6% Shors + 34.4% Austrian @ 7.49
8 77% Tatar + 23% Yakut @ 7.5
9 78.9% Tatar + 21.1% Evens @ 7.56
10 76.8% Tatar + 23.2% Dolgan @ 7.61
11 78.4% Tatar + 21.6% Evenki @ 7.64
12 65.4% Shors + 34.6% Hungarian @ 7.67
13 68.4% Shors + 31.6% Danish @ 7.79
14 67.4% Tatar + 32.6% Ket @ 7.81
15 63% Shors + 37% Finnish @ 7.81
16 68.4% Shors + 31.6% Swedish @ 7.88
17 68.8% Shors + 31.2% North_Dutch @ 7.89
18 66.4% Shors + 33.6% North_Swedish @ 7.93
19 66% Shors + 34% South_Polish @ 7.97
20 75.2% Tatar + 24.8% Koryak @ 8.01
# Population Percent
1 Siberian 27.7
2 Eastern_Euro 18.77
3 North_Sea 12.78
4 Atlantic 8.87
5 West_Asian 7.4
6 Baltic 7.39
7 South_Asian 6.48
8 Southeast_Asian 5.34
9 Sub-Saharan 2.71
10 Amerindian 2.57

[Kelmendasi]

If the E-V13 Scythian is actually E-V13>CTS5856 then this would be a very important for the history and expansion of E-V13. The sample is around 4700 years old whilst the formation of CTS5856 is supposed to be 4600ybp and it's TMRCA 4000ybp. This could suggest that E-V13 was in fact a lineage that expanded with the Indo-European peoples during the Bronze Age. Though you could argue that it originally came from the Balkans but migrated to the Steppe region where it was then assimilated and then expanded back west as a back migration

[Pubiczar]

All the samples so far with subclades: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bnVJujBs_bQu_dqSVi_dSXUuz9gNIYFX_XlqRrz92mo/edit#gid=0

Some Gedmatch results of some samples:

Scy:009 on Gedmatch Genesis
AG3897943

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 27.04
2 North_Sea 20.12
3 Eastern_Euro 17.31
4 Atlantic 14.47
5 West_Med 12.41
6 Red_Sea 3.35
7 Sub-Saharan 3.05
8 West_Asian 1.64
9 East_Med 0.59

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Ukrainian 7.18
2 Ukrainian_Lviv 7.32
3 South_Polish 7.95
4 Polish 8.8
5 Croatian 9.41
6 Russian_Smolensk 10.28
7 Estonian_Polish 10.67
8 Moldavian 10.92
9 Belorussian 11.16
10 Southwest_Russian 11.18
11 Ukrainian_Belgorod 11.21
12 Hungarian 11.74
13 Estonian 12.98
14 East_German 13.29
15 Lithuanian 13.43
16 Kargopol_Russian 14.02
17 Austrian 14.13
18 Finnish 15.08
19 Southwest_Finnish 15.34
20 East_Finnish 15.41

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.1% Ukrainian + 7.9% Sardinian @ 6.03
2 91.7% Ukrainian + 8.3% Mozabite_Berber @ 6.04
3 96.9% Ukrainian + 3.1% Yoruban @ 6.12


Scy10

JA5383158

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 22.21
2 Baltic 19.94
3 Eastern_Euro 17.21
4 Atlantic 16.42
5 West_Med 10.25
6 West_Asian 7.42
7 Sub-Saharan 2.62
8 East_Med 1.91
9 Northeast_African 1.53
10 Red_Sea 0.48

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Croatian 6.81
2 Hungarian 7.2
3 Moldavian 7.56
4 East_German 8.08
5 South_Polish 8.16
6 Ukrainian_Lviv 8.57
7 Ukrainian 8.64
8 Austrian 9.17
9 Polish 10.1
10 Serbian 11.57
11 Russian_Smolensk 12.11
12 Ukrainian_Belgorod 12.33
13 Southwest_Finnish 12.43
14 Southwest_Russian 12.63
15 Finnish 13.02
16 Estonian_Polish 13.86
17 Belorussian 14.12
18 East_Finnish 14.14
19 Kargopol_Russian 14.55
20 Estonian 14.66

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 53.1% Moldavian + 46.9% East_German @ 5.26
2 67.8% Moldavian + 32.2% Southwest_Finnish @ 5.37
3 73.3% East_German + 26.7% Erzya @ 5.45
4 61.7% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 38.3% French @ 5.49
5 74.6% Moldavian + 25.4% North_Swedish @ 5.49
6 79.2% Croatian + 20.8% North_Swedish @ 5.53
7 65.2% East_German + 34.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 5.55
8 66.3% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 33.7% Spanish_Galicia @ 5.6
9 60.3% Croatian + 39.7% East_German @ 5.65
10 82.8% Croatian + 17.2% Norwegian @ 5.67
11 78.5% Moldavian + 21.5% Norwegian @ 5.69
12 84.7% Croatian + 15.3% West_Norwegian @ 5.69
13 77.8% Moldavian + 22.2% Swedish @ 5.72
14 53.1% East_German + 46.9% Ukrainian @ 5.72
15 82.4% Croatian + 17.6% Swedish @ 5.72
16 80.9% Moldavian + 19.1% West_Norwegian @ 5.76
17 73.4% Ukrainian + 26.6% French @ 5.77
18 79% Moldavian + 21% Danish @ 5.8
19 66.6% East_German + 33.4% Southwest_Russian @ 5.81
20 79% South_Polish + 21% Spanish_Galicia @ 5.82


ext Ukrainian Scy:011

ZU1965664

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 24.63
2 West_Asian 19.03
3 West_Med 15.41
4 Eastern_Euro 12.35
5 Atlantic 8
6 South_Asian 4.53
7 Amerindian 4.36
8 Siberian 4.04
9 Sub-Saharan 2.75
10 Baltic 2.65
11 Northeast_African 1.86
12 Oceanian 0.39


Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Serbian 22.01
2 Romanian 22.56
3 Moldavian 22.63
4 West_German 22.72
5 Hungarian 23.41
6 French 23.57
7 East_German 23.71
8 South_Dutch 24.14
9 Bulgarian 24.46
10 Austrian 25.17
11 Croatian 25.28
12 Spanish_Galicia 25.31
13 Tatar 25.39
14 Greek_Thessaly 25.64
15 North_Italian 26.16
16 Portuguese 26.32
17 North_German 26.51
18 Southwest_English 26.77
19 Tuscan 27.09
20 Nogay 27.21

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.7% Spanish_Galicia + 45.3% Tabassaran @ 14.32
2 57.5% French + 42.5% Tabassaran @ 14.59
3 59% West_German + 41% Tabassaran @ 14.64
4 57.1% West_German + 42.9% Tadjik @ 14.7
5 60.3% West_German + 39.7% Afghan_Tadjik @ 14.92
6 63.5% West_German + 36.5% Balkar @ 15
7 57.1% West_German + 42.9% Nogay @ 15.03
8 62.8% West_German + 37.2% Chechen @ 15.12
9 65.3% West_German + 34.7% Ossetian @ 15.15
10 53.4% Portuguese + 46.6% Tabassaran @ 15.16
11 52.8% Southwest_English + 47.2% Tabassaran @ 15.23
12 63.1% West_German + 36.9% Afghan_Pashtun @ 15.24
13 63.4% West_German + 36.6% Kabardin @ 15.3
14 56.8% South_Dutch + 43.2% Tabassaran @ 15.32
15 61.9% West_German + 38.1% Lezgin @ 15.33
16 55.8% French + 44.2% Tadjik @ 15.33
17 54.1% Southwest_English + 45.9% Afghan_Tadjik @ 15.47
18 59.1% French + 40.9% Afghan_Tadjik @ 15.51
19 50.8% Southwest_English + 49.2% Tadjik @ 15.51
20 56.3% Norwegian + 43.7% Balkar @ 15.54


Cimmerian357
HA5642706

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Swedish 16.36
2 Norwegian 16.73
3 West_Norwegian 16.86
4 Swedish 17.08
5 Danish 18.85
6 North_Dutch 18.95
7 Orcadian 19.12
8 West_German 19.26
9 North_German 20.11
10 West_Scottish 20.54
11 Irish 21.2
12 Southeast_English 21.26
13 Finnish 21.29
14 Southwest_Finnish 21.6
15 Southwest_English 21.66
16 South_Dutch 22.39
17 East_German 23.44
18 East_Finnish 24.19
19 Hungarian 24.84
20 French 25.2

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 78.1% West_Norwegian + 21.9% Afghan_Tadjik @ 12.92
2 78.5% West_Norwegian + 21.5% Afghan_Uzbeki @ 13.06
3 78.4% West_Norwegian + 21.6% Afghan_Turkmen @ 13.13
4 82.1% West_Norwegian + 17.9% Burusho @ 13.16
5 79.6% West_Norwegian + 20.4% Afghan_Hazara @ 13.25
6 77.6% West_Norwegian + 22.4% Tadjik @ 13.26
7 80.1% West_Norwegian + 19.9% Afghan_Pashtun @ 13.37
8 83.2% West_Norwegian + 16.8% Shors @ 13.4
9 80% West_Norwegian + 20% Uzbeki @ 13.47
10 82.3% West_Norwegian + 17.7% Kalash @ 13.49
11 81.8% West_Norwegian + 18.2% Hazara @ 13.57
12 82.8% West_Norwegian + 17.2% Pathan @ 13.58
13 84.4% West_Norwegian + 15.6% Hakas @ 13.62
14 83% West_Norwegian + 17% Punjabi_Jat @ 13.69
15 86.7% West_Norwegian + 13.3% Ket @ 13.73
16 87.1% West_Norwegian + 12.9% Selkup @ 13.74
17 80.2% Norwegian + 19.8% Afghan_Tadjik @ 13.8
18 84.6% West_Norwegian + 15.4% Sindhi @ 13.81
19 83.6% West_Norwegian + 16.4% Brahui @ 13.83
20 83.4% West_Norwegian + 16.6% Balochi @ 13.87
# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 42.07
2 Eastern_Euro 13.13
3 Atlantic 12.88
4 West_Asian 7.14
5 Siberian 6.74
6 South_Asian 6.26
7 Baltic 5.31
8 Northeast_African 4.28
9 Red_Sea 1.91
10 Amerindian 0.28


Cimmerian359
FN2312934

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Afghan_Turkmen 17.28
2 Tatar 17.93
3 Mari 19.57
4 Chuvash 20.38
5 Shors 20.39
6 Uzbeki 20.73
7 Afghan_Hazara 23.98
8 Hakas 24.19
9 Hazara 24.99
10 Uygur 26.74
11 Nogay 27.81
12 East_Finnish 30.23
13 Altaian 30.79
14 Kargopol_Russian 32
15 Tadjik 32.11
16 Afghan_Uzbeki 32.12
17 Afghan_Tadjik 32.3
18 Erzya 32.71
19 Finnish 33.05
20 Ket 34.33

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 69.4% Tatar + 30.6% Saqqaq @ 6.9
2 53.7% Tatar + 46.3% Shors @ 7.09
3 67.5% Shors + 32.5% North_German @ 7.25
4 66.1% Shors + 33.9% East_German @ 7.35
5 58.5% Tatar + 41.5% Hakas @ 7.48
6 64.3% Shors + 35.7% Southwest_Finnish @ 7.49
7 65.6% Shors + 34.4% Austrian @ 7.49
8 77% Tatar + 23% Yakut @ 7.5
9 78.9% Tatar + 21.1% Evens @ 7.56
10 76.8% Tatar + 23.2% Dolgan @ 7.61
11 78.4% Tatar + 21.6% Evenki @ 7.64
12 65.4% Shors + 34.6% Hungarian @ 7.67
13 68.4% Shors + 31.6% Danish @ 7.79
14 67.4% Tatar + 32.6% Ket @ 7.81
15 63% Shors + 37% Finnish @ 7.81
16 68.4% Shors + 31.6% Swedish @ 7.88
17 68.8% Shors + 31.2% North_Dutch @ 7.89
18 66.4% Shors + 33.6% North_Swedish @ 7.93
19 66% Shors + 34% South_Polish @ 7.97
20 75.2% Tatar + 24.8% Koryak @ 8.01
# Population Percent
1 Siberian 27.7
2 Eastern_Euro 18.77
3 North_Sea 12.78
4 Atlantic 8.87
5 West_Asian 7.4
6 Baltic 7.39
7 South_Asian 6.48
8 Southeast_Asian 5.34
9 Sub-Saharan 2.71
10 Amerindian 2.57

Can you share the gedmatch for the Scy197, the one with the E-CTS1273?

[Kelmendasi]

Can you share the gedmatch for the Scy197, the one with the E-CTS1273?
The gedmatch for Scy197 hasn't been done yet, I couldn't find it on anthrogenica

[Pubiczar]

If the E-V13 Scythian is actually E-V13>CTS5856 then this would be a very important for the history and expansion of E-V13. The sample is around 4700 years old whilst the formation of CTS5856 is supposed to be 4600ybp and it's TMRCA 4000ybp. This could suggest that E-V13 was in fact a lineage that expanded with the Indo-European peoples during the Bronze Age. Though you could argue that it originally came from the Balkans but migrated to the Steppe region where it was then assimilated and then expanded back west as a back migration

One thing about I am confused...
You say that the sample is 4700 years old, however while reading the paper now I didn't see that nowhere.
I can see that there are LBA samples from Srubnaya Akulskaya and Iron Age nomads(Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians) been analysed!
However, on the 'Scythian etc (by Semargl)' sheet, the sample Scy197 is indeed marked as being from 2885 - 2632 BCE!
That's EBA, and not Iron Age and certainly not Scythian as the Scythian culture flourished from around 900 BC to around 200 BC!

[Kelmendasi]

One thing about I am confused...
You say that the sample is 4700 years old, however while reading the paper now I didn't see that nowhere.
I can see that there are LBA samples from Srubnaya Akulskaya and Iron Age nomads(Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians) been analysed!
However, on the 'Scythian etc (by Semargl)' sheet, the sample Scy197 is indeed marked as being from 2885 - 2632 BCE!
That's EBA, and not Iron Age and certainly not Scythian as the Scythian culture flourished from around 900 BC to around 200 BC!
Going by the date that Semargl it should be around 4700 though not sure on the actual number, I got the date from Semargl. I'll try finding the date given on the paper. Yh the dating seems to be off, i'll see if the date is mentioned on the paper

[Kelmendasi]

It seems that Scy192 and Scy197 weren't able to give off accurate ages, possibly the reason why the dating was off from Semargl. "Calibrated ages were reported as years cal BCE or CE. For all but two samples (scy192 and scy197), reliable results were obtained". The dating on the paper actually does show Scy197 as from the Bronze Age, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15533-Ancient-genomes-of-Srubnaya-Cimmerians-Scythians-and-Sarmatians(Science-2018)

[Kelmendasi]

Semargl has shown Scy009 as R1b>U152>L2. Bashkirs have some U152 perhaps it's from Scythians? Will need to check their clades to know for sure.

[Bardock]

If the E-V13 Scythian is actually E-V13>CTS5856 then this would be a very important for the history and expansion of E-V13. The sample is around 4700 years old whilst the formation of CTS5856 is supposed to be 4600ybp and it's TMRCA 4000ybp. This could suggest that E-V13 was in fact a lineage that expanded with the Indo-European peoples during the Bronze Age. Though you could argue that it originally came from the Balkans but migrated to the Steppe region where it was then assimilated and then expanded back west as a back migration

If that is actually its clade, it could mean that your maternal Y-DNA came from a Thracian Expansion. I know that Thracians were believers to have some sharing with Scythians supposedly. Unless of course its a back migration as you suggested. One would have to find the location of the parent clade of CTS5856 ot get an idea.

[Kelmendasi]

If that is actually its clade, it could mean that your maternal Y-DNA came from a Thracian Expansion. I know that Thracians were believers to have some sharing with Scythians supposedly. Unless of course its a back migration as you suggested. One would have to find the location of the parent clade of CTS5856 ot get an idea.
Problem is that this Scythian or sample isn't actually 4,700 years old, Scythians are an Iron Age people not Bronze Age. The age that the paper estimated is certainly an error. The date and age got me confused lol. My maternal line's E-V13>CTS5856* could be anything from Illyrian to Thracian, it is basal so it's hard to guess, to me it seems like E-V13 as a haplogroup was definitely picked up by IE peoples and spread with them

[Token]

Problem is that this Scythian or sample isn't actually 4,700 years old, Scythians are an Iron Age people not Bronze Age. The age that the paper estimated is certainly an error. The date and age got me confused lol. My maternal line's E-V13>CTS5856* could be anything from Illyrian to Thracian, it is basal so it's hard to guess, to me it seems like E-V13 as a haplogroup was definitely picked up by IE peoples and spread with them

E-V13 was probably absorbed by Scythians from mixing with western Pontic-Caspian steppe locals and Greek settlers from around the northern shores of the Black Sea.

[Lucas]

gEDMATCH gENESIS

AG3897943 scy:009
CR9929939 Cim358
JA5383158 Scy10
ZU1965664 Scy11
HA5642706 Cim357
FN2312934 Cim359

[Bardock]

Problem is that this Scythian or sample isn't actually 4,700 years old, Scythians are an Iron Age people not Bronze Age. The age that the paper estimated is certainly an error. The date and age got me confused lol. My maternal line's E-V13>CTS5856* could be anything from Illyrian to Thracian, it is basal so it's hard to guess, to me it seems like E-V13 as a haplogroup was definitely picked up by IE peoples and spread with them

My uncle comes next week. Ordered a alpha beta for him. So I will get my maternal ydna soon. My Paternal grandmothers relative got V13 as well. But they did 23andme lol.

[Kelmendasi]

My uncle comes next week. Ordered a alpha beta for him. So I will get my maternal ydna soon. My Paternal grandmothers relative got V13 as well. But they did 23andme lol.
Nice, is this your uncle on your mothers side?

[Kelmendasi]

The E-V13 Scythian, Scy197 may actually make sense. It is clustering close with Albanians and Greeks and Neolithic/Bronze Age Balkanites. Though perhaps originally it wasn't Scythian but some other group such as Dacian, who knows.

https://i.postimg.cc/QN2cCyWN/image_1.png

[Kelmendasi]

Scy193 has been put down as possibly R1a-BY30764 by Semargl. This R1a clade is a subclade of Z93, possibly strengthening the Indo-Iranic origin of the Scythians. Scy193 was put as R1b-M269 by the paper so perhaps the paper has made errors when it comes to Ydna.

[Kelmendasi]

Interestingly two of the Srubnaya samples have turned out to be R1a-Z280, Z280 is usually connected to Balto-Slavs. The other Srubnaya samples were just downstreams of Z93, as would be expected.

[Bardock]

Nice, is this your uncle on your mothers side?

The one thats coming next week yea. Claims descent from Gjin Bua Shpata. Supposedly fis Morina. Paternal Grandmothers YDNA is V13 from Okshtuni Madhe.

[Bardock]

The E-V13 Scythian, Scy197 may actually make sense. It is clustering close with Albanians and Greeks and Neolithic/Bronze Age Balkanites. Though perhaps originally it wasn't Scythian but some other group such as Dacian, who knows.

https://i.postimg.cc/QN2cCyWN/image_1.png

I say Thracian. Dacians/Getae had a more northern periphery and may have encroached upon Thracians. Were the samples clustering near Albanians V13 and R1b? or were they the R1a Scythian samples? Also I think the aging was far older than Scythian. What if these were actually Proto Thracian samples? assuming it is 2-3000 BC. Thats far too old for Scythian. I don't know what in the burial suggested it was Scythian though.

[Bardock]

Interestingly two of the Srubnaya samples have turned out to be R1a-Z280, Z280 is usually connected to Balto-Slavs. The other Srubnaya samples were just downstreams of Z93, as would be expected.

I guess as history often mentioned about the Scythians, much like the turkic tribes after them, that they adopted many into their clans. Its evidenced by how diverse their autsomal genomes are coming out. Or perhaps not all Z280 is Balto-Slavic. I think 2 clades of Z280(and only 2 so far) are specifically West Germanic, though as rare as L664. Is this basal Z280? or more downstream? There is a Yfull modern sample of a Ukrainian that is basal Z280. So perhaps The link between Indo Iranian and Balto-Slavic is shared there. Given the eastern stretch and that time period, it would be interesting to find so basal or even downstream M458 samples. They practiced Cremation so it almost seems like looking for a ghost.

[Kelmendasi]

I say Thracian. Dacians/Getae had a more northern periphery and may have encroached upon Thracians. Were the samples clustering near Albanians V13 and R1b? or were they the R1a Scythian samples? Also I think the aging was far older than Scythian. What if these were actually Proto Thracian samples? assuming it is 2-3000 BC. Thats far too old for Scythian. I don't know what in the burial suggested it was Scythian though.
The male Scythian which was near Albanians was E-V13>CTS5856 whilst the other was a female. The dating of these samples is an error imo as suggested by the paper. They were most certainly buried with items that would suggest that they were Scythian(or assimilated by Scythians). I don't think they were Thracians. The Thracians didn't reach that far up north, the most north they got was somewhere around northern Bulgaria and central Romania(maybe parts of the north). These samples were in Moldova, the Dacians were inhabiting this area so I think Dacians would be a better possibility. Though there is a possibility that they were Greek colonists originally since they did settle around the coast of Dobruja which is near Moldova. There has only been one R1a Scythian sample found so far, all the rest have been R1b with some minor haplogroups like E-V13 and I2a2a.

[Kelmendasi]

The one thats coming next week yea. Claims descent from Gjin Bua Shpata. Supposedly fis Morina. Paternal Grandmothers YDNA is V13 from Okshtuni Madhe.
Are you going to test your paternal grandmothers side as well? There is a Morina E-V13 sample and he is Z5018*

[Kelmendasi]

I guess as history often mentioned about the Scythians, much like the turkic tribes after them, that they adopted many into their clans. Its evidenced by how diverse their autsomal genomes are coming out. Or perhaps not all Z280 is Balto-Slavic. I think 2 clades of Z280(and only 2 so far) are specifically West Germanic, though as rare as L664. Is this basal Z280? or more downstream? There is a Yfull modern sample of a Ukrainian that is basal Z280. So perhaps The link between Indo Iranian and Balto-Slavic is shared there. Given the eastern stretch and that time period, it would be interesting to find so basal or even downstream M458 samples. They practiced Cremation so it almost seems like looking for a ghost.
One is mentioned as only R1a-Z280 whilst the other is R1a-Z280? so it isn't certain if he was Z280.

[Bardock]

The male Scythian which was near Albanians was E-V13>CTS5856 whilst the other was a female. The dating of these samples is an error imo as suggested by the paper. They were most certainly buried with items that would suggest that they were Scythian(or assimilated by Scythians). I don't think they were Thracians. The Thracians didn't reach that far up north, the most north they got was somewhere around northern Bulgaria and central Romania(maybe parts of the north). These samples were in Moldova, the Dacians were inhabiting this area so I think Dacians would be a better possibility. Though there is a possibility that they were Greek colonists originally since they did settle around the coast of Dobruja which is near Moldova. There has only been one R1a Scythian sample found so far, all the rest have been R1b with some minor haplogroups like E-V13 and I2a2a.

Aren't all the Srubna supposed to be Proto-Scythian or something? The Srubna were succeeded by Scythians and Sarmatians. Also, Proto-Thracians came from the North down South. So if the aging lines up with the migration, Proto-Thracian is not out of the question. But considering as you say, that they were of a scythian nature, then I suppose Greek colonists is the most likely probability.

[Bardock]

Are you going to test your paternal grandmothers side as well? There is a Morina E-V13 sample and he is Z5018*

I would love to, but we don't keep in touch with her paternal side from Diber. If I knew of any living male relatives that came to the US I definitely would. I know its impossible to deduce YDNA from a femal autosomal sample. However, oddly enough morely predicted R1b* or I1* from my moms autosomal lmao. Its probably just some trace snps. Oddly it didn't come up as an error when running it.

[Kelmendasi]

Aren't all the Srubna supposed to be Proto-Scythian or something? The Srubna were succeeded by Scythians and Sarmatians. Also, Proto-Thracians came from the North down South. So if the aging lines up with the migration, Proto-Thracian is not out of the question. But considering as you say, that they were of a scythian nature, then I suppose Greek colonists is the most likely probability.
Iirc the Srubna can be linked to Iranic speakers of the Pontic-Caspian so you would think that they were ancestral to the Scythians and Sarmatians. Though this is becoming difficult to confirm as the Scythians seem to be more similar to the eastern Yamnaya autosomally rather than Srubna.

[Figaro]

All this latest data has got me thinking about the Cimbri of Denmark and a connection to the Cimmerians. I have a theory I'm slowly working through that has this as a confirmed connection, albeit with a middle period within the bronze age Nordwestblock cultures.

[Bardock]

Iirc the Srubna can be linked to Iranic speakers of the Pontic-Caspian so you would think that they were ancestral to the Scythians and Sarmatians. Though this is becoming difficult to confirm as the Scythians seem to be more similar to the eastern Yamnaya autosomally rather than Srubna.

Eastern Yamnaya have input from East Asia right? or no?

It is interesting nonetheless. Seems some previously head views are being overturned or at least reexamined.

[Bardock]

All this latest data has got me thinking about the Cimbri of Denmark and a connection to the Cimmerians. I have a theory I'm slowly working through that has this as a confirmed connection, albeit with a middle period within the bronze age Nordwestblock cultures.

Aren't there some wild theories claiming the ancestors of the line of "Odin" came from the Steppe? Have you dont full NGS testing to confirm your clade btw?

[Kelmendasi]

Eastern Yamnaya have input from East Asia right? or no?

It is interesting nonetheless. Seems some previously head views are being overturned or at least reexamined.
Not sure. They may have had some extra east Asian input when compared to the western Yamnaya though they were certainly mainly EHG and CHG like the western Yamnaya. What's confusing me about this paper is how quite a bit of the Ydna haplogroups have been predicted incorrectly lol

[Bardock]

One is mentioned as only R1a-Z280 whilst the other is R1a-Z280? so it isn't certain if he was Z280.

so far more basal Z280 as well as early split clades seem common in northern europe and germany. With exception of the one basal Z280 being Ukrainian.

[Bardock]

Not sure. They may have had some extra east Asian input when compared to the western Yamnaya though they were certainly mainly EHG and CHG like the western Yamnaya. What's confusing me about this paper is how quite a bit of the Ydna haplogroups have been predicted incorrectly lol

If Semargl was incorrect it would have me really reevaluating my haplo assignment lmao. considering he runs Yfull. Then again we have whole genomes examined as opposed to partial samples. As far as I understand anyway.

[Figaro]

Aren't there some wild theories claiming the ancestors of the line of "Odin" came from the Steppe? Have you dont full NGS testing to confirm your clade btw?

It might make sense.

Also, no, I've only ever paid for 23andme...I plan to deep subclade testing when I have the money to burn.

[Kelmendasi]

All this latest data has got me thinking about the Cimbri of Denmark and a connection to the Cimmerians. I have a theory I'm slowly working through that has this as a confirmed connection, albeit with a middle period within the bronze age Nordwestblock cultures.
Highly doubt they were linked peoples tbh. The Cimmerians seem to have been an Iranic speaking peoples that had received quite a good amount of input from east Asia during the Iron Age. The Cimmerian sample that had less east Asian and was noted as R1b1a by the paper but Semargl has predicted it as R1a-Z93 through it's BAM file, further supporting Indo-Iranic origin, was autosomally clustering with Sarmatians, Scythians and a Srubnayan sample. The Cimbri iirc are noted as being either Germanic or Celtic so I don't think they were connected to the Cimmerians. Would like to hear your opinion on it though

[Bardock]

It might make sense.

Also, no, I've only ever paid for 23andme...I plan to deep subclade testing when I have the money to burn.

True. I imagine you would get Z284. Which is the Scando-Germanic R1a.

[Mingle]

Highly doubt they were linked peoples tbh. The Cimmerians seem to have been an Iranic speaking peoples that had received quite a good amount of input from east Asia during the Iron Age. The Cimmerian sample that had less east Asian and was noted as R1b1a by the paper but Semargl has predicted it as R1a-Z93 through it's BAM file, further supporting Indo-Iranic origin, was autosomally clustering with Sarmatians, Scythians and a Srubnayan sample. The Cimbri iirc are noted as being either Germanic or Celtic so I don't think they were connected to the Cimmerians. Would like to hear your opinion on it though

Isn't there also a theory that the Cimmerians were Thracian? Does that theory have any ground?

[Mingle]

gEDMATCH gENESIS

AG3897943 scy:009
CR9929939 Cim358
JA5383158 Scy10
ZU1965664 Scy11
HA5642706 Cim357
FN2312934 Cim359

GEDmatch Genesis and regular GEDmatch are the same thing now. They updated Genesis a few months ago so now it gives the same results as the regular GEDmatch does.

[Kelmendasi]

Isn't there also a theory that the Cimmerians were Thracian? Does that theory have any ground?
Right now based on the samples, it doesn't hold any ground. The most western or European like Cimmerian sample was plotting with Scythians and Sarmatians suggesting some sort of steppe Iranic origin, whilst the other two had a large amount of east Asian input which came from around the Altai during the Iron Age as well as this admix linked to other steppe peoples. Going by samples from the Balkans, the Cimmerians weren't originally a Balkan people but rather a steppe people

[Mingle]

Right now based on the samples, it doesn't hold any ground. The most western or European like Cimmerian sample was plotting with Scythians and Sarmatians suggesting some sort of steppe Iranic origin, whilst the other two had a large amount of east Asian input which came from around the Altai during the Iron Age as well as this admix linked to other steppe peoples. Going by samples from the Balkans, the Cimmerians weren't originally a Balkan people but rather a steppe people

Do you know where Thracians plot? There's a theory that they were a Baltic people that later migrated to the Balkans. If that's true, then that wouldn't rule out the theory. They were pretty close to Iranics in geography:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Balto-Slavic_lng.png/790px-Balto-Slavic_lng.png

[Wrong]

Right now based on the samples, it doesn't hold any ground. The most western or European like Cimmerian sample was plotting with Scythians and Sarmatians suggesting some sort of steppe Iranic origin, whilst the other two had a large amount of east Asian input which came from around the Altai during the Iron Age as well as this admix linked to other steppe peoples. Going by samples from the Balkans, the Cimmerians weren't originally a Balkan people but rather a steppe people

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo9buo9Mtos

[Kelmendasi]

Do you know where Thracians plot? There's a theory that they were a Baltic people that later migrated to the Balkans. If that's true, then that wouldn't rule out the theory. They were pretty close to Iranics in geography:

[ig]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Balto-Slavic_lng.png/790px-Balto-Slavic_lng.png[/img]
Not sure but there were Iron Age Thracians tested. One of the samples was very high in Neolithic admix and was noted as being similar to Otzi in terms of genetic similarity with Sardinians, whilst the other sample was had a higher percentage of HG and steppe input when compared to the other sample. The sample which was high in Neolithic like admix was found in a pit whilst the other, which had higher HG and steppe, was found in a Kurgan which is interesting http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/05/more-info-on-two-thracian-genomes-from.html. I have heard of the Baltic theory but as of now I don't believe it, I think their linguistically similarities are just from the fact that both are Satem and came from similar areas originally.

[Figaro]

Highly doubt they were linked peoples tbh. The Cimmerians seem to have been an Iranic speaking peoples that had received quite a good amount of input from east Asia during the Iron Age. The Cimmerian sample that had less east Asian and was noted as R1b1a by the paper but Semargl has predicted it as R1a-Z93 through it's BAM file, further supporting Indo-Iranic origin, was autosomally clustering with Sarmatians, Scythians and a Srubnayan sample. The Cimbri iirc are noted as being either Germanic or Celtic so I don't think they were connected to the Cimmerians. Would like to hear your opinion on it though

Indeed, Scyhians and Sarmatians were linguistically indo-iranian and Cimbri-proper were either Germanic or Celtic. Thing is, we need to be questioning if these are monlithic linguistic "groups" or if the very late bronze age and early iron age saw a highly diverse people from the steppes westward seeing a period of synthesis and consolidation. ....i.e., Celt=Scythian+indigenous elements. Kind of backing what ancients had to say about their origins afterall....

[Figaro]

True. I imagine you would get Z284. Which is the Scando-Germanic R1a.

But my R1a is from (likely) Mecklenburg, N.E. Germany. Could be a Wendish/Balto-Slavic variety.

[Figaro]

Isn't there also a theory that the Cimmerians were Thracian? Does that theory have any ground?

Yeah, or even a remnant of an Indo-European people transitional between Celtic and Thracian.

In my opinion, The Cimbri were a remnant of the Cimmerians who went through a Celto-Germanic phase somewhere after Hallstatt, lived among the Nordwestblock for some time and then scedaddled over to Denmark. Jutlanders I believe are supposed to have the highest Bell Beaker input in Scandinavia. I wonder if there's a link.

It was Strabo or someone who described the Cimbrians as "Still" existing "as a Germanic tribe". Although of course these words have been translated from translations through multiple languages etc, but what if he is suggesting a remnant that has gone through phases?

[Token]

Iirc the Srubna can be linked to Iranic speakers of the Pontic-Caspian so you would think that they were ancestral to the Scythians and Sarmatians. Though this is becoming difficult to confirm as the Scythians seem to be more similar to the eastern Yamnaya autosomally rather than Srubna.

In my opinion, the 'Steppe' cluster is the best representative of how Iron Age nomads might have looked like initially - predominantly Steppe_MLBA with some local Central Asian admixture, mimicking modern-day North Caucasian genetic profile. Cimm357 had this genetic make-up, and he was Z93, a typical Iranic marker. He also formed a clade together with one Srubnaya and several Sarmatian and Scythian samples, suggesting a common Iron Age steppe 'basal' genetic profile. This is also supported by the fact that western Scythians forms a clade with Andronovo, Sintashta and Afanasievo to the exclusion of Yamnaya, despite their distinct Y-DNA make up. F4 stats suggests that Cimmerians shared more drift with Karasuk, but i don't think this is the case for Cimm357.

Also, as user Kurd on anthrogenica noted, it should be reiterated that two populations clustering together doesn't always equals to direct introgression/geneflow, but might simply suggests deep shared ancestry.

[Yaglakar]

https://i.imgur.com/JPN434N.png

Scythians of Moldova and Ukraine are likely descendants Yamna or at least related to the them

[Proto-Shaman]

Sorry for my ignorance, but where exactly are these subclades most common today ?
Kelmendesi is lying to you. Here is the truth:


https://i.imgur.com/KAHkSHB.png

Armenians have 0% of that. I showed him this map 1000 times, but he still repeats his dirty lies.

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Z2103_Yamnaya.png

You can clearly see it's a Turkic-Dagestani haplotype.

[Proto-Shaman]

The Cimmerians seem to have been an Iranic speaking peoples that had received quite a good amount of input from east Asia during the Iron Age.

Iirc the Srubna can be linked to Iranic speakers of the Pontic-Caspian
This R1a clade is a subclade of Z93, possibly strengthening the Indo-Iranic origin of the Scythians.
yeah for sure :picard2:

https://i.imgur.com/Kch2is1.png

Did you already re-applied for a comedy show?