View Full Version : Depression: Is most of it caused by Atheism nowadays?
ScaredGirl11
10-06-2018, 05:00 AM
In our generation, depression is more common that it even was. Coincidentally or not, atheism is also very strong nowadays.
I think that there is a connection because most of atheists turned to be atheist because they thought this way they would be free from the "opression of the religions".
So, atheists tend to use as an excuse for themselves to live an hedonist life, based on materialism and transitory kinds of pleasures.
But of course you cannot be happy if you are attached to impermanent things.
Only permanent happiness is the true happiness.
The same way we cannot be happy being attached to wordly things.
The only way of being happy is being sastified with what you have on the present momment.
The present momment is the only thing you need.
But what atheists don't understand is that you cannot enjoy the present if you are a materialist person.
Because material things are not everything.
Spiritual world exists.
ScaredGirl11
10-06-2018, 05:01 AM
Religion is needed to be happy.
Ancap
10-06-2018, 05:04 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NRV2aospvc
Colonel Frank Grimes
10-06-2018, 05:21 AM
It has nothing to do with a lack of religion and everything to do with a genetic predisposition.
You're confusing a sense of community with the effects of religion on a person. The Amish score high on happiness. They have a sense of community. But they also suck big balls. If we were all like the Amish we would be conquered by a less happier people who are motivated to improve their lives by inventing more efficient ways of doing things, which leads to kicking the ass of people who are less efficient in doing things.
If you truly want to be happy (and not the cheap happiness that comes from the comfort and security of belonging to a community) then you'd choose an environment where surviving each day feels like a great accomplishment (in other words you don't die) or work on something difficult that you will complete (learn a new language, be able to do 1000 sit ups in a day, etc.)
Accomplishing something difficult that you put a great deal of effort and work makes you happy.
Tauromachos
10-06-2018, 05:23 AM
I'm not sure that believing in God saves you from depression
but it may help you overcoming it
Wifi is needed to be happy.
silver_surfer
10-06-2018, 05:43 AM
I'm not sure that there's a correlation. I can believe that more people are clinically diagnosed with depression these days (social isolation coming from increasing internet usage). In my experience, the real difference lies in the readiness to admit to being depressed. Christians and Muslims, I think most of the religious folks, hide it more than non-believers because for many it represents a lack of trust in God's providence or causes them to question their assumed position as a member of the elect.
ScaredGirl11
10-06-2018, 05:45 AM
TA is needed to be happy
The Lawspeaker
10-06-2018, 05:48 AM
I am inclined to agree: atheism robs people of a sense of purpose or even hope (there is neither God or a higher purpose or a reward after death). It also robs people of a community as atheism does not offer its adherents anything communal like a Church does (f.i the parish). The story of the Emperor without clothes could have been about atheism as it offers nothing but statements that nothing's out there and life has no meaning.
Tauromachos
10-06-2018, 05:48 AM
TA is needed to be happy
TA needs love
Show some love
ScaredGirl11
10-06-2018, 07:00 AM
It has nothing to do with a lack of religion and everything to do with a genetic predisposition.
You're confusing a sense of community with the effects of religion on a person. The Amish score high on happiness. They have a sense of community. But they also suck big balls. If we were all like the Amish we would be conquered by a less happier people who are motivated to improve their lives by inventing more efficient ways of doing things, which leads to kicking the ass of people who are less efficient in doing things.
If you truly want to be happy (and not the cheap happiness that comes from the comfort and security of belonging to a community) then you'd choose an environment where surviving each day feels like a great accomplishment (in other words you don't die) or work on something difficult that you will complete (learn a new language, be able to do 1000 sit ups in a day, etc.)
Accomplishing something difficult that you put a great deal of effort and work makes you happy.
I know that depression is a hormonal inbalance but there are things that can develop it, like Atheist theories for an example.
And yeah, it is true that you don't need a community to be happy but that doesn't mean you have to be atheist.
Religion is mostly about self-control, so people can enjoy solitude very well with the help of the discipline that religions can offer.
Just like Buddhist or Hinduist monks that can meditate alone in mountains for years.
Hapinnes is also about desatachment and religion is a very good way learn how to desattach from everything.
Colonel Frank Grimes
10-06-2018, 07:22 AM
I know that depression is a hormonal inbalance but there are things that can develop it, like Atheist theories for an example.
And yeah, it is true that you don't need a community to be happy but that doesn't mean you have to be atheist.
Religion is mostly about self-control, so people can enjoy solitude very well with the help of the discipline that religions can offer.
Just like Buddhist or Hinduist monks that can meditate alone in mountains for years.
Hapinnes is also about desatachment and religion is a very good way learn how to desattach from everything.
I do know that meditation has helped convicts who were part of the program in a prison in Georgia (I think it was Georgia) to change their negative attitude and gave them a sense of well being. So there is something to that. Unfortunately the program was stopped because of the prison chaplain getting jelly.
What is certain, though, is that getting to know God removes depression better than any medicine available on the market, or even illegal market. Fact. Those who doubt this have never experienced God, and I encourage them to "try" it. :)
Kivan
10-06-2018, 09:06 AM
....
Wassup Jolsonaro's sock
Depends on what pill you choose. Blue or red.
Wassup Jolsonaro's sock
https://media1.tenor.com/images/b9ebfbf0e8060ab57071dea8e537b05c/tenor.gif?itemid=5922988
ScaredGirl11
10-06-2018, 03:52 PM
Wassup Jolsonaro's sock
what??
War Chef
10-06-2018, 03:55 PM
I do know that meditation has helped convicts who were part of the program in a prison in Georgia (I think it was Georgia) to change their negative attitude and gave them a sense of well being. So there is something to that. Unfortunately the program was stopped because of the prison chaplain getting jelly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrH6UMYAVsk
frankhammer
10-06-2018, 03:57 PM
TA needs love
Show some love
:laugh:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/vbdonate.php?do=donate
Colonel Frank Grimes
10-06-2018, 05:21 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrH6UMYAVsk
It must feel like stepping on a different planet. 44 years is a long time. I read a memoir by a mobster dude who said you could tell when someone started his prison time by what they would reference in a conversation. Time stopped the moment they began their prison sentence.
Phenix
10-06-2018, 05:22 PM
I don't agree with this religious attribution to depression.
I think the biggest cause of depression nowadays is due to the lack of human intercourse, honesty, and fidelity, people are taking this abject social codes from the mediatized celebrities and disconnected political elites that are sadly mistaken for role models.
We should learn how to live simpler lives and enjoy the present instant.
I don't agree with this religious attribution to depression.
I think the biggest cause of depression nowadays is due to the lack of human intercourse, honesty, and fidelity, people are taking this abject social codes from the mediatized celebrities and disconnected political elites that are sadly mistaken for role models.
We should learn how to live simpler lives and enjoy the present instant.
You mention a certain level of depression, or the causes of it. And yes, I agree with these things... but... there is a certain level in your person that can only be satisfied by fellowship with God. Human beings were originally created to have fellowship with God, to worship him and to receive feedback from God. A godly circle of fulfillment. And that is the deepest part of your being that cannot be satisfied by anything other than God himself, and being in his presence.
I understand that this may be difficult to comprehend for those who have not had the pleasure of experiencing the presence of God. But let tell you, it is something, it is real, and it is profound.. and our beings desire God, without us even realising it. Thirst can only be quenched by water (or fluid), hunger can only be alleviated by food intake, and in the same way we have this part in our spirit that can only be satisfied by God's presence. Many people are often searching for "something" in their lives, without knowing what it is they are looking for... or trying to find out what it is they are "missing". Well, it is this....
Smeagol
10-06-2018, 06:09 PM
Atheists have nothing to hope for.
Phenix
10-06-2018, 06:59 PM
You mention a certain level of depression, or the causes of it. And yes, I agree with these things... but... there is a certain level in your person that can only be satisfied by fellowship with God. Human beings were originally created to have fellowship with God, to worship him and to receive feedback from God. A godly circle of fulfillment. And that is the deepest part of your being that cannot be satisfied by anything other than God himself, and being in his presence.
I understand that this may be difficult to comprehend for those who have not had the pleasure of experiencing the presence of God. But let tell you, it is something, it is real, and it is profound.. and our beings desire God, without us even realising it. Thirst can only be quenched by water (or fluid), hunger can only be alleviated by food intake, and in the same way we have this part in our spirit that can only be satisfied by God's presence. Many people are often searching for "something" in their lives, without knowing what it is they are looking for... or trying to find out what it is they are "missing". Well, it is this....
Loki, You and I are seeing the world from a different stands, but we are looking to the same target: finding the reason for existing.
I asked myself this question too many times, and came to the plain conclusion that the divine could only be defined as the higher consciousness of interacting forms of life, i think that all existent lives are matrixed somehow, and we are all part of the divine (the existence is by its definition miraculous), our course to find God can be described as an essay to understand our bigger soul within this universe.
With some retreat i consider my self atheist because i don't puzzle out the implication of belief in our personal life.
I'm anti-dogmatic not anti-theist, what troubles me the most is the human interpretation of natural signs and the singularization of God or impersonating it in a form of Creator/Creation type of cult that resembles more to slavery.
Finally, i think that the question of believing or not in a supreme being have to do with each individual past, and social position, i don't expect anyone to merely agree with my thoughts, everybody has his own path to pursue.
Atheists have nothing to hope for.
There is nothing to hope for.
Loki, You and I are seeing the world from a different stands, but we are looking to the same target: finding the reason for existing.
I asked myself this question too many times, and came to the plain conclusion that the divine could only be defined as the higher consciousness of interacting forms of life, i think that all existent lives are matrixed somehow, and we are all part of the divine (the existence is by its definition miraculous), our course to find God can be described as an essay to understand our bigger soul within this universe.
With some retreat i consider my self atheist because i don't puzzle out the implication of belief in our personal life.
I'm anti-dogmatic not anti-theist, what troubles me the most is the human interpretation of natural signs and the singularization of God or impersonating it in a form of Creator/Creation type of cult that resembles more to slavery.
Finally, i think that the question of believing or not in a supreme being have to do with each individual past, and social position, i don't expect anyone to merely agree with my thoughts, everybody has his own path to pursue.
No my friend, you are wrong about this. And your conclusions are incorrect.
I'm not finding a reason for existing -- I have already found it, and it is the same reason that all humans share -- but not all know it.
And no.. the question of believing in a "supreme being" has nothing to do with my past, social position, or whatever. You see... you don't think God really exists. I also don't think so.. I KNOW he does. There is a big difference.
So in conclusion -- you think you understand where I am coming from, but you are missing it entirely.
There is nothing to hope for.
For you, correct. But for those who have accepted Jesus as Saviour, there is a whole eternity in glory to hope for.
For you, correct. But for those who have accepted Jesus as Saviour, there is a whole eternity in glory to hope for.
Sure, everyone needs something to keep them busy and happy in their lives. When the death comes, there will be no such thing as regret after all.
Sure, everyone needs something to keep them busy and happy in their lives. When the death comes, there will be no such thing as regret after all.
On the contrary, there's going to be a lot of regret for a lot of people...
Thorns
10-07-2018, 03:05 AM
It has nothing to do with a lack of religion and everything to do with a genetic predisposition.
You're confusing a sense of community with the effects of religion on a person. The Amish score high on happiness. They have a sense of community. But they also suck big balls. If we were all like the Amish we would be conquered by a less happier people who are motivated to improve their lives by inventing more efficient ways of doing things, which leads to kicking the ass of people who are less efficient in doing things.
If you truly want to be happy (and not the cheap happiness that comes from the comfort and security of belonging to a community) then you'd choose an environment where surviving each day feels like a great accomplishment (in other words you don't die) or work on something difficult that you will complete (learn a new language, be able to do 1000 sit ups in a day, etc.)
Accomplishing something difficult that you put a great deal of effort and work makes you happy.
Those things obviously don't make everybody happy, but I would agree only to say that I think people need things of that nature in their lives (having goals, working hard, accomplishments, etc).
Alas, I have built my fair share of sand castles and dreadful monuments of misery.
Hexachordia
10-07-2018, 03:16 AM
Just count on fingers which world cultural heritage sites are atheist :picard1: Mr Wilde says that artists have no obligation to tell what they believe in their works, let alone con-artists like marxists, atheists can not find confidence without money and power, they always are compulsive in attaining money and power, at the end they can not help secretly deify themselfs. They are the real clowns, perfect pierrots in moments either happy or miserable.
Phenix
10-07-2018, 02:43 PM
No my friend, you are wrong about this. And your conclusions are incorrect.
I'm not finding a reason for existing -- I have already found it, and it is the same reason that all humans share -- but not all know it.
And no.. the question of believing in a "supreme being" has nothing to do with my past, social position, or whatever. You see... you don't think God really exists. I also don't think so.. I KNOW he does. There is a big difference.
So in conclusion -- you think you understand where I am coming from, but you are missing it entirely.
I sanctify life and made an objective to myself: searching its forms wherever it could be, that's my reason to live.
Sacralization of human-like God figures doesn't seem right to me. I can't conceptualize the divinity as an independent body from other beings.
But if i was wrong and it turns out that this universe has a an individual power reigning on it's throne, I would gladly accept a sign of it's presence and hope to receive it before my time come to an end in this world.
For now i don't sense anything, neither in mosque, nor church, nor temple.
Just count on fingers which world cultural heritage sites are atheist :picard1: Mr Wilde says that artists have no obligation to tell what they believe in their works, let alone con-artists like marxists, atheists can not find confidence without money and power, they always are compulsive in attaining money and power, at the end they can not help secretly deify themselfs. They are the real clowns, perfect pierrots in moments either happy or miserable.
Indeed, religion can only be a cultural aspect from the past, not an instrument to shape modern peoples lives. It simply too primitive.
I sanctify life and made an objective to myself: searching its forms wherever it could be, that's my reason to live.
Sacralization of human-like God figures doesn't seem right to me. I can't conceptualize the divinity as an independent body from other beings.
But if i was wrong and it turns out that this universe has a an individual power reigning on it's throne, I would gladly accept a sign of it's presence and hope to receive it before my time come to an end in this world.
For now i don't sense anything, neither in mosque, nor church, nor temple.
You're on a wild goose chase, I can tell you that. Why don't you listen to people who have already done that search... and look at their findings, instead of just wasting your time? Do you think I'm just thinking things up, or believing in fairy tales?
God is true, and he is your creator. One day you will face that reality, and then you will want to kick yourself for being so narrow-minded that you didn't want to get to know him. That is, if you continue with your current ignorant pattern. In short, you are missing very much.. and you don't even know it. You're looking for the wrong things in the wrong places. I know this because I've experienced things in my life that you don't even know exists.
Indeed, religion can only be a cultural aspect from the past, not an instrument to shape modern peoples lives. It simply too primitive.
What do you mean by "religion"? Certainly you can't mean God. Because God is not "primitive". You are primitive. Your brain is simply inadequate.
What do you mean by "religion"? Certainly you can't mean God. Because God is not "primitive". You are primitive. Your brain is simply inadequate.
Which "god" are you talking about? There are many out there and all are invention of your brain. What makes you think your god is more plausable than Odin, Zeus or Tengri?
Which "god" are you talking about? There are many out there and all are invention of your brain. What makes you think your god is more plausable than Odin, Zeus or Tengri?
I'm talking about the only true God. Not those you mention. I think you know who I'm talking about, you're just trying to be a smart arse.
I'm talking about the only true God. Not those you mention. I think you know who I'm talking about, you're just trying to be a smart arse.
I don't who is that, is it the god that is mentioned in bible? Or is it the one in Qoran? They all different.
I don't who is that, is it the god that is mentioned in bible? Or is it the one in Qoran? They all different.
The God of the Bible is the only true God. Revealed in Jesus Christ.
The Quran is fakery devised by Satan to deceive people.
The God of the Bible is the only true God. Revealed in Jesus Christ.
The Quran is fakery devised by Satan to deceive people.
And what proves your god is the true one? You have no logical superiortiy over Islam or Buddhism. They think your god is false and corrupted too. As you can see, there is no point in dedication to a religion. I would have understood if you were a deist but all you do is dogmatic fanaticism here.
Ofcourse, highly agree! Most atheists I know are spirit-less, bitter people...
Ofcourse, highly agree! Most atheists I know are spirit-less, bitter people...
Life is bitter, spirits are not exist. We are all about bones and flesh, nothing else. That's the harsh reality.
And what proves your god is the true one?
I know for sure because I have personally experienced him. And I am hardly alone... most people who are theists in the world believe in the Christian God. By far the most.
You have no logical superiortiy over Islam or Buddhism.
What on earth does that mean? Your comment is simply subjective and reveals how little you know about the subject.
They think your god is false and corrupted too.
But they are wrong, of course. And I don't care what they think. I don't need their approval.
As you can see, there is no point in dedication to a religion. I would have understood if you were a deist but all you do is dogmatic fanaticism here.
I can see nothing from what you wrote here, only that you know nothing about God, and that you are purposely ignorant on the subject.
Why would I want to be a deist if I know who the one true God is? That would be very silly.
Life is bitter, spirits are not exist. We are all about bones and flesh, nothing else. That's the harsh reality.
How the hell do you know ? You didn't die and come back :P
and life is beautiful, full of opportunities if you seek them !
I know for sure because I have personally experienced him. And I am hardly alone... most people who are theists in the world believe in the Christian God. By far the most.
What on earth does that mean? Your comment is simply subjective and reveals how little you know about the subject.
But they are wrong, of course. And I don't care what they think. I don't need their approval.
I can see nothing from what you wrote here, only that you know nothing about God, and that you are purposely ignorant on the subject.
Why would I want to be a deist if I know who the one true God is? That would be very silly.
Yes, here comes the personal experience. The most subjective thing on earth. Every member of a different religion have their own "spiritual" experinces and they think they found the true god. You are not the only one. That's why we need logic and science which are common for all people instead of dogma, personal feelings and experiences.
Life is bitter, spirits are not exist. We are all about bones and flesh, nothing else. That's the harsh reality.
Life is not bitter if you know Jesus in your life....
Spirits are real, they exist for sure. Many people know this. We are living in the third dimension. But there are higher dimensions, for example the spiritual dimension, that you cannot see with your current set of eyes. But not all things that exist are visible to you right now... if you really think that, it just means there is still much that you haven't experienced in life. Keep an open mind, not a closed one. You are young, how can you know that you have experienced everything there is to experience? And if people tell you the spirit world is real, do you think they are just having fantasies and delusions? Or ... perhaps they are correct, but you are too ignorant to look into the matter sufficiently?
War Chef
10-07-2018, 04:42 PM
Life is bitter, spirits are not exist. We are all about bones and flesh, nothing else. That's the harsh reality.
You are the classic example of who OP is writing about.
New generation of gloomy millennial atheists,
every day is cloudy and rainy for you.
I feel sorry
gıulıoımpa
10-07-2018, 04:43 PM
No.
look at the relationship with other human beings, not the relationship with god and you'll find the answer.
Yes, here comes the personal experience. The most subjective thing on earth. Every member of a different religion have their own "spiritual" experinces and they think they found the true god. You are not the only one. That's why we need logic and science which are common for all people instead of dogma, personal feelings and experinces.
The personal experience is the most important one for any person on earth. Life is subjective. Wake up and smell the coffee. And no, I reject what you way, there is no other religion with the same "spiritual experiences" than someone who knows Jesus Christ. But, the Christian faith is not all about experiences, because God wills that you believe in him without having seen or experienced. That is the faith God is looking for.
You think you are very wise but you know very little. You have no right to tell me other people have the same experience as me, because I know that people from other religions don't. That is why many people who have had near-death experiences, and seen Jesus, became Christians afterwards. For example there is such a testimony of an ex-Buddhist priest.
Science is great, but that's not going to reveal God -- who is a Spirit -- to you. He is higher than earthly science.
As for logic, I have great logic. You don't. You're illogical and ignorant.
War Chef
10-07-2018, 04:47 PM
Yes, here comes the personal experience. The most subjective thing on earth. Every member of a different religion have their own "spiritual" experinces and they think they found the true god. You are not the only one. That's why we need logic and science which are common for all people instead of dogma, personal feelings and experiences.
I personally believe there is another dimension pulling at the very fabric of the material world. It always knocks to us but we dismiss it. I think the "goal" of being human is to rid all our defilements: hatred, greed & lust and ultimately be one with all of the pureness of "god" or "nirvana" or whatever you wanna call it.
But until then, sex, drugs and rock & roll :rockon:
How the hell do you know ? You didn't die and come back :P
and life is beautiful, full of opportunities if you seek them !
You are the classic example of who OP is writing about.
New generation of gloomy millennial atheists,
every day is cloudy and rainy for you.
I feel sorry
I love the cloudy and rainy days. I accepted it. You are so judgemental.
The Lawspeaker
10-07-2018, 04:50 PM
I find it amazing how people can walk around - either in nature or in a church and not feel His presence. Sorry, atheists, you guys are in desperate need of a kind of eye glasses because His presence is as clear as the keyboard I'm typing this on.
Smeagol
10-07-2018, 04:51 PM
I was nearly an atheist for a while but have accepted God back into my life and have been much happier.
I love the cloudy and rainy days. I accepted it. You are so judgemental.
You admitted yourself that you are bitter. And it shows.
I find it amazing how people can walk around - either in nature or in a church and not feel His presence. Sorry, atheists, you guys are in desperate need of a kin of eye glasses because His presence is as clear as the keyboard I'm typing this on.
Absolutely. Without God, this world falls apart and cannot even exist.
The Lawspeaker
10-07-2018, 04:54 PM
It's like a cup of coffee that's on the table in front of me. It's there and an atheist is telling me that it isn't. I don't need glasses. He does. To deny what is there is perfectly irrational.
Dandelion
10-07-2018, 04:57 PM
It must feel like stepping on a different planet. 44 years is a long time. I read a memoir by a mobster dude who said you could tell when someone started his prison time by what they would reference in a conversation. Time stopped the moment they began their prison sentence.
True time travellers they are. Exiting prison in a society with smartphones when having entered it in a society where phone-booths were still a thing.
Hexachordia
10-07-2018, 05:10 PM
Indeed, religion can only be a cultural aspect from the past, not an instrument to shape modern peoples lives. It simply too primitive.
Ancient sites are not primitive, many are uber-human. The degeneracy modern age has is so much that the true progresses is seriously counter-weighted. There is no new things, as Hegel says. If anything, I will say, history is like wave, ancient past at certain point and an unknown future age are going to be twin pinnacles.
Dandelion
10-07-2018, 05:17 PM
Just count on fingers which world cultural heritage sites are atheist :picard1:.
Not every monument is religious. Sidney Opera House for instance isn't Christian. Antwerp Central Station neither is. The Statue of Liberty neither. Much of the most beautiful art is also secular. Worldly and spiritual art, they have their place.
Kazimiera
10-07-2018, 05:22 PM
In our generation, depression is more common that it even was. Coincidentally or not, atheism is also very strong nowadays.
A sweeping statement. To prove this one would have to do a large-scale correlational study with thousands, or hundreds of thousands, research participants.
Hexachordia
10-07-2018, 05:42 PM
Not every monument is religious. Sidney Opera House for instance isn't Christian. Antwerp Central Station neither is. The Statue of Liberty neither. Much of the most beautiful art is also secular. Worldly and spiritual art, they have their place.
Also pagan fairy tales and lores besides christian tradition serve as an inspiring source for many modern arts, everything is mashed in secular life. The pure atheism does not exist outside marxist authoritarian systems and certain professional ethics(soldiers, political agencies, religiosity surely will weaken combat capability). Sure, the affluent secular society is a good thing, and religious legacies should serve the continuous secular life in prosperity, among other greater purposes.
Dandelion
10-07-2018, 05:44 PM
Also pagan fairy tales and lores also serve as a source of many modern arts, everything is mashed in secular life. The pure atheism does not exist outside marxist authoritarian systems and certain professional ethics(soldiers, political agencies, religiosity surely will weaken combat capability). Sure, the affluent secular society is a good thing, and religious legacies should serve the continuous secular life in prosperity, among other greater purposes.
True. Irreligious Westerners are different from Marxist ideologues. Ideological monuments with atheist themes would be just weird. That is more a thing that existed in Eastern Europe. Bringing dogma in your lack of religion isn't healthy at all.
GabrielZ
10-07-2018, 05:50 PM
spiritual peace has to do with happiness. That's why religious people are usually happier.
Phenix
10-07-2018, 06:27 PM
You're on a wild goose chase, I can tell you that. Why don't you listen to people who have already done that search... and look at their findings, instead of just wasting your time? Do you think I'm just thinking things up, or believing in fairy tales?
God is true, and he is your creator. One day you will face that reality, and then you will want to kick yourself for being so narrow-minded that you didn't want to get to know him. That is, if you continue with your current ignorant pattern. In short, you are missing very much.. and you don't even know it. You're looking for the wrong things in the wrong places. I know this because I've experienced things in my life that you don't even know exists.
Maybe, the doubt is what makes alive and functional after all.
Serenity is only appreciable when it is temporary, when you solve a part of a mystery and find another.
I search desire not pleasure, the answers religions gave me were too simplistic too confident and too general, like it was meant to give pleasure to anyone hearing it.
Pleasure has to do with finish with ending, concepts like beginning and end are relative, if you think that you have found the ultimate truth than it must not be relative to other facts, it must be the fact.
Desire is more profound and appeasing, with it you aspire to attain the light, but you will through the procedure find that it can not appreciate the light without having a certain distance.
I don't believe that a world with infinite limits and particles have a quantifiable source or that source can be personified.
If your God the one and only as you affirm is caring and loving, prey him to send me a sign, because i never received such a thing.
And one more thing: do you believe in God or do you believe in your own attributions of God? there is a subtle difference between the two notions.
Ayetooey
10-07-2018, 06:38 PM
There's probably a link, doesn't mean that religion is true/false, but I can see how an Athiest who has little wants beyond material needs (what society is based around) would be more prone to depression than a devout Muslim or Christian who believes they are off to paradise after death.
prey him to send me a sign, because i never received such a thing.
No, I will not. You can read the Bible. Everything you need to know about God is in there. Why should you get preferential treatment because of your unbelief? Someone asked Jesus the same thing... "show us a sign, and we will believe". Jesus then told them they will be given no sign, except the sign of Jonah. Figure out what that is... it's interesting.
And one more thing: do you believe in God or do you believe in your own attributions of God? there is a subtle difference between the two notions.
No, I don't believe in my own interpretations, or trust in my own insight. I believe in God as revealed in and through Jesus Christ, and as he still does through other Christian believers. There are plenty of witnesses to God's truth in life.
There's probably a link, doesn't mean that religion is true/false, but I can see how an Athiest who has little wants beyond material needs (what society is based around) would be more prone to depression than a devout Muslim or Christian who believes they are off to paradise after death.
The fact that we Christians know roughly what lies ahead for us, is indeed a great comfort for the soul, and brings an immense sense of peace and contentment. Being born again and saved is wonderful, and there is a great hope for the future. An atheist can never have this, no matter how hard he tries.
Phenix
10-07-2018, 10:08 PM
No, I will not. You can read the Bible. Everything you need to know about God is in there. Why should you get preferential treatment because of your unbelief? Someone asked Jesus the same thing... "show us a sign, and we will believe". Jesus then told them they will be given no sign, except the sign of Jonah. Figure out what that is... it's interesting.
No, I don't believe in my own interpretations, or trust in my own insight. I believe in God as revealed in and through Jesus Christ, and as he still does through other Christian believers. There are plenty of witnesses to God's truth in life.
Be sure my search has not come to an end and neither yours, for now I'll just let time take its course.
Being born again and saved is wonderful, and there is a great hope for the future. An atheist can never have this, no matter how hard he tries.
From Dust we came, and to dust we shall return. To meditate.
Be sure my search has not come to an end and neither yours, for now I'll just let time take its course.
Mine has come to an end -- it happens when you find Jesus. But you wouldn't understand that (yet).
From Dust we came, and to dust we shall return. To meditate.
Of course. But Jesus promised his followers new resurrected bodies when he comes again... same as what he received when he was raised from the dead. So.. there will be a day when the graves will open -- some will be resurrected to eternal glory, and others (the vast majority) to eternal damnation.
Wrong
10-07-2018, 10:22 PM
Why is Hungary so high? Is it a shared Balto-Finno-Ugric trait?
https://i.redd.it/0tq617z4fjrz.jpg
Why is Hungary so high? Is it a shared Balto-Finno-Ugric trait?
The Hungarian national character is quite pessimistic.
Congolese Rice
10-07-2018, 10:25 PM
What is certain, though, is that getting to know God removes depression better than any medicine available on the market, or even illegal market. Fact. Those who doubt this have never experienced God, and I encourage them to "try" it. :)
if god will give me nappy hair or my curly hair back sign me up to the "daily dose of LAWDDD jesus christ" train
pulstar
10-07-2018, 10:27 PM
Depression is caused by accumulated stress, tyranny of uniqeness with aid of social and other medias.
Livin
10-07-2018, 10:31 PM
The Hungarian national character is quite pessimistic.
The whole eastern europe in general....
Sacrificed Ram
10-07-2018, 11:06 PM
The same person that says atheists are more depressives, was before saying atheists don't exist, how could a thing that doesn't exist be depressive? Why he is so obsessed with atheists? Why he is so obsessed with the life of other people? If someone is interested in spread the goods of his god, he shall leave internet and become a missionary.
Livin
10-08-2018, 12:20 AM
The same person that says atheists are more depressives, was before saying atheists don't exist, how could a thing that doesn't exist be depressive? Why he is so obsessed with atheists? Why he is so obsessed with the life of other people? If someone is interested in spread the goods of his god, he shall leave internet and become a missionary.
You are out of subject dude....
ScaredGirl11
10-08-2018, 12:27 AM
The same person that says atheists are more depressives, was before saying atheists don't exist, how could a thing that doesn't exist be depressive? Why he is so obsessed with atheists? Why he is so obsessed with the life of other people? If someone is interested in spread the goods of his god, he shall leave internet and become a missionary.
True atheists really don't exists. And most of the persons who claim to be "atheist", most of the time are not entrely atheist, they just choose atheism as a way to escape from their moral and spiritual responsibilities. So i don't see anything contradictory in what i said.
About the rest, just relax bro. We are just talking, we are not killing each other or some thing like that xD
Sacrificed Ram
10-08-2018, 12:36 AM
True atheists really don't exists. And most of the persons who claim to be "atheist", most of the time are not entrely atheist, they just choose atheism as a way to escape from their moral and spiritual responsibilities. So i don't see anything contradictory in what i said.
About the rest, just relax bro. We are just talking, we are not killing each other or some thing like that xD
"Moral and Spiritual responsabilities" don't exist in objective mean, they are subjetive, each one has his, and you cannot affirm an atheists don't have theirs.
e.g. For a catholic divorce is a wrong thing but for (some) protestants or muslim it is normal.
ScaredGirl11
10-08-2018, 12:56 AM
Depression is caused by accumulated stress, tyranny of uniqeness with aid of social and other medias.
Yeah but some experiences and the way of life that an individual have can affect that.
Nazarene
10-08-2018, 01:11 AM
Yes because it is often accompanied with a sense of nihilism.
ScaredGirl11
10-08-2018, 01:14 AM
Yes because it is often accompanied with a sense of nihilism.
Yeah, i also perceived that
Sacrificed Ram
10-08-2018, 01:18 AM
Now a study showing atheists are more happy than theists:
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2018/03/20/the-2018-un-world-happiness-report-most-atheistic-and-socially-well-off-countries-are-the-happiest-while-religious-countries-are-poor-and-unhappy/
Rędwald
10-08-2018, 01:18 AM
I'm not an atheist but I still am diagnosed with depression. Life is suffering. Otherwise, it would be pointless.
TA is a suicide nutshell can't leave since day one I got here lol unfortunately.
ScaredGirl11
10-08-2018, 01:34 AM
Now a study showing atheists are more happy than theists:
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2018/03/20/the-2018-un-world-happiness-report-most-atheistic-and-socially-well-off-countries-are-the-happiest-while-religious-countries-are-poor-and-unhappy/
I didn't said that atheists cannot be happy, they can. But i don't know which cryteriums this study used to reach this conclusion and what it considers as "happiness". Also, i remember seeing a similar study that showed the opposite, if i am not wrong.
Colonel Frank Grimes
10-08-2018, 03:19 AM
I wouldn't call myself atheist. I'm more of an agnostic. I have no interest in spirituality. If someone wants to weird me out all they have to do is talk to me about 'finding Jesus' or Allah or Rocktar. It makes me extremely uncomfortable. The same way it makes me uncomfortable when a crazy homeless man talks to me.
I have no need for spirituality. It's not in my nature. Depression is also not in my nature. I get joy from reading about different dog breeds, learning of different choke holds, coming up and developing ideas, etc. Just as me being a happy camper cuz my simple interests make me happy has nothing to do with religion - or just a belief in God - religion isn't going to make someone with clinical depression feel better. I've lived with someone with clinical depression. It's not fun to be around. Religion, spirituality, or just a belief in God isn't going to help them.
ScaredGirl11
10-08-2018, 03:29 AM
I wouldn't call myself atheist. I'm more of an agnostic. I have no interest in spirituality. If someone wants to weird me out all they have to do is talk to me about 'finding Jesus' or Allah or Rocktar. It makes me extremely uncomfortable. The same way it makes me uncomfortable when a crazy homeless man talks to me.
I have no need for spirituality. It's not in my nature. Depression is also not in my nature. I get joy from reading about different dog breeds, learning of different choke holds, coming up and developing ideas, etc. Just as me being a happy camper cuz my simple interests make me happy has nothing to do with religion - or just a belief in God - religion isn't going to make someone with clinical depression feel better. I've lived with someone with clinical depression. It's not fun to be around. Religion, spirituality, or just a belief in God isn't going to help them.
OK, maybe i used the wrong words. I should choose "extreme sadness" instead of "depression". But i still think religion can really help people with clinical depression.
ScaredGirl11
10-08-2018, 03:34 AM
What is certain, though, is that getting to know God removes depression better than any medicine available on the market, or even illegal market. Fact. Those who doubt this have never experienced God, and I encourage them to "try" it. :)
I agree but how can we experience God, Loki? Even though i am a Christian, i am still not sure...
Colonel Frank Grimes
10-08-2018, 03:46 AM
OK, maybe i used the wrong words. I should choose "extreme sadness" instead of "depression". But i still think religion can really help people with clinical depression.
Isn't extreme sadness just another way of saying depression?
Decius
10-08-2018, 03:47 AM
Weed cures depression
Colonel Frank Grimes
10-08-2018, 03:48 AM
I agree but how can we experience God, Loki? Even though i am a Christian, i am still not sure...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzrh5GftgzM
ScaredGirl11
10-08-2018, 03:48 AM
Isn't extreme sadness just another way of saying depression?
I don't know tbh xD
Colonel Frank Grimes
10-08-2018, 03:50 AM
I don't know tbh xD
What are you so scared of?
Decius
10-08-2018, 03:52 AM
Cannabis is a gift from god. God made it so we could be happy.
ScaredGirl11
10-08-2018, 03:55 AM
What are you so scared of?
I am scared of persons asking why i am scared
Colonel Frank Grimes
10-08-2018, 03:58 AM
I am scared of persons asking why i am scared
That's quite a dilemma.
ScaredGirl11
10-08-2018, 04:04 AM
That's quite a dilemma.
Yeah it i as an infinite loop
ScaredGirl11
10-08-2018, 04:17 AM
In our generation, depression is more common that it even was. Coincidentally or not, atheism is also very strong nowadays.
I think that there is a connection because most of atheists turned to be atheist because they thought this way they would be free from the "opression of the religions".
So, atheists tend to use as an excuse for themselves to live an hedonist life, based on materialism and transitory kinds of pleasures.
But of course you cannot be happy if you are attached to impermanent things.
Only permanent happiness is the true happiness.
The same way we cannot be happy being attached to wordly things.
The only way of being happy is being sastified with you have on the presente momment.
The present momment is the only thing you need.
But what atheists don't understand is that you cannot enjoy the present if you are a materialist person.
Because material things are not everything.
Spiritual world exists.
I will add some things more to complete what i wrote here
Our body dies but our spirit remains forever.
So even though the present momment is important for being happy,
This Alone would not be enough,
You would still need to take care of your spirit
Because enjoying the present momment is worthless if your spirit is not on peace.
Purify your spirit , so nothing will be able to affect our happiness.
Haider
10-08-2018, 04:49 AM
Yes. All Atheists are depressed, because they feel they have no meaning or purpose in life. Their only source of 'happiness' is dragging other people into their sadness.
I agree but how can we experience God, Loki? Even though i am a Christian, i am still not sure...
Aha! That's the billion dollar question, right? :) Thankfully, God has given us some answers regarding that in the Bible. I will list a few suggestions for you when I come back from town.
Hexachordia
10-08-2018, 10:19 AM
One of the major criticisms against theism by non-socialist atheist like Sir Russell is that, religion is a anesthesia to reality. I understand the point, superstition in afterlife has played a major role in stagnating most religious societies, making people disrespectful to real problems in life. Still nobody try to explain why atheist marxists also disrespect or abuse life for power and merit? If atheist theorists ignore this reality and go on, how can they be different from those filth wallowing worshippers of river gods. ;)
The spirit of people crumbles, the more intellectual environment the more proned to depression. The intellectual pressure is dealt by many authors especially by Saul Bellow and Franz Kafka, I think there is a confusion about the intellectual life developed since 19th century. Weakness, is the major reason in depression, suicide and crime are two sides of a coin as the final outcome. Depression also possibly has played more roles in criminal activities, it is more prevalent than we have imagined. Twisted personality, perversion can also have the same root with drepression. Everyone more or less has it.
Colonel Frank Grimes
10-08-2018, 01:18 PM
One of the major criticisms against theism by non-socialist atheist like Sir Russell is that, religion is a anesthesia to reality. I understand the point, superstition in afterlife has played a major role in stagnating most religious societies, making people disrespectful to real problems in life. Still nobody try to explain why atheist marxists also disrespect or abuse life for power and merit? If atheist theorists ignore this reality and go on, how can they be different from those filth wallowing worshippers of river gods. ;)
The spirit of people crumbles, the more intellectual environment the more proned to depression. The intellectual pressure is dealt by many authors especially by Saul Bellow and Franz Kafka, I think there is a confusion about the intellectual life developed since 19th century. Weakness, is the major reason in depression, suicide and crime are two sides of a coin as the final outcome. Depression also possibly has played more roles in criminal activities, it is more prevalent than we have imagined. Twisted personality, perversion can also have the same root with drepression. Everyone more or less has it.
Why do you keep going on about Marxists? Your claim that depression is a factor in criminal activity is nonsense. I've never heard that and it contradicts what we know of psychopaths (high self esteem) who cause the majority of crimes.
Hexachordia
10-08-2018, 01:57 PM
Why do you keep going on about Marxists? Your claim that depression is a factor in criminal activity is nonsense. I've never heard that and it contradicts what we know of psychopaths (high self esteem) who cause the majority of crimes.
Depression is ridiculed at by many westerners, I know since student days that some bullies have mental problems, somehow a few people can manage to transfer their issues unto other people by forcing their interests. The weaker people are left to deal on their own and take the blame. When people ridicule others should reflect on their own impeccability first. You calling it nonsense is over-reaction, google "Depression and Criminal Behavior" there are a lot studies about their correlation. Marxists are liars, and radical atheists, they make a typical target.
I'm not sure that believing in God saves you from depression
but it may help you overcoming it
I dont see how it can, if depression is a chemical imbalance, it could help to cope with it though.
Its a genetic predisposition that can be activated by enviornmental factors. Again this doesnt target the cause, just helps deal with symptoms, like a drug.
Larali
10-08-2018, 03:01 PM
Depression is caused by a combination of genetic tendencies and pervasive, ingrained negative thought patterns. Not by atheism. However, it's possible that atheism and negative thought patterns go hand-in-hand.
Depression is caused by accumulated stress, tyranny of uniqeness with aid of social and other medias.
What do you mean? Not fitting in?
pulstar
10-08-2018, 03:26 PM
What do you mean? Not fitting in?
Everybody think they are "special" even when no particular talent is given to them.
Everybody think they are "special" even when no particular talent is given to them.
How's that related to depression?
pulstar
10-08-2018, 03:42 PM
How's that related to depression?
Here's how: Your environment thinks you are special. It is not their fault in 60's group of psychologists thought it would be good for everyone's self-esteem, but that was wrong. You imagine the end goal under their influence, but only the end goal. You don't realize the amount of effort needed to reach it. When you do you quit (most quit), and instead being brutally honest with yourself and see its not for you, so you either:
a) take victim mentality
b) blame everyone else for your problems
If you are too long in that state it can cause depression.
People just need to be more honest with themselves and then they will be more honest with everyone else. Those things combined will result in better world.
ScaredGirl11
10-08-2018, 03:46 PM
Here's how: Your environment thinks you are special. It is not their fault in 60's group of psychologists thought it would be good for everyone's self-esteem, but that was wrong. You imagine the end goal under their influence, but only the end goal. You don't realize the amount of effort needed to reach it. When you do you quit (most quit), and instead being brutally honest with yourself and see its not for you, so you either:
a) take victim mentality
b) blame everyone else for your problems
If you are too long in that state it can cause depression.
People just need to be more honest with themselves and then they will be more honest with everyone else. Those things combined will result in better world.
Atheism causes most of that. Religion helps you to look at yourself first and be a better person.
pulstar
10-08-2018, 03:51 PM
Atheism causes most of that. Religion helps you to look at yourself first and be a better person.
I agree religion can help you out, but its not only thing that can help you out. Even if you are atheist you can find the right formula for it.
I dont see how it can, if depression is a chemical imbalance, it could help to cope with it though.
Its a genetic predisposition that can be activated by enviornmental factors. Again this doesnt target the cause, just helps deal with symptoms, like a drug.
Well that is because you don't know God, and don't know how he works. I know that God can cure people from depression. 100%. And he does it better than any other treatment or medication.
Larali
10-08-2018, 05:11 PM
Well that is because you don't know God, and don't know how he works. I know that God can cure people from depression. 100%. And he does it better than any other treatment or medication.
How? I need to know how this works
I agree but how can we experience God, Loki? Even though i am a Christian, i am still not sure...
Well.. first of all, we know to know that we can experience God, because he promised us so, as can be seen in the Bible. He says that we will find him if we seek him with our whole heart.
The first thing to know about experiencing God, is that it has become possible only because of what Jesus has done for us on the cross... he has paved the way for us to come into the holy of holies of God's presence, by taking all our sins and inadequacies upon himself, so we can be presented before God as unblemished and pure. Because sinfulness cannot come into his presence. Therefore, we need to have accepted Jesus as our saviour and redeemer, first of all.
Now... when you are here.. as a Christian.. and you want to come into God's presence, it is good to have a clear conscience too. And in order to get that, come to God in prayer and confess to him anything you may feel guilty of, and ask Jesus to forgive your sins and wash you clean with his blood. All you have to have for that is faith, and sincerity. You don't have to twist Jesus's arm... because that is what he does. :)
The next thing you need to know is that the Bible says without faith it is impossible to please God. And, it also says that if you lack faith, you can (and should) ask God to give you more faith... because even that is a gift from God. And then... with your faith... you can come to God in prayer, and ask him to come into his presence, and that he should reveal himself to you. Trust and believe that he will answer your prayer. And persist in this -- God will for sure answer you if you are sincere with him, but it may not be immediately. It will be in his time -- it could be immediately, but it could also be tomorrow, next week, or in a few months.. we should also have patience and wait on him. Seek God in prayer, and spend some private time in worship, and asking him to come into your life in a tangible way, and to show you his will.
How? I need to know how this works
Through prayer, asking him. Are you a Christian?
Larali
10-08-2018, 05:21 PM
Through prayer, asking him. Are you a Christian?
I was at one time
I was at one time
I can assure you, if you come back to Jesus, you will already have made a huge step towards healing from depression...
ScaredGirl11
10-08-2018, 06:22 PM
Well.. first of all, we know to know that we can experience God, because he promised us so, as can be seen in the Bible. He says that we will find him if we seek him with our whole heart.
The first thing to know about experiencing God, is that it has become possible only because of what Jesus has done for us on the cross... he has paved the way for us to come into the holy of holies of God's presence, by taking all our sins and inadequacies upon himself, so we can be presented before God as unblemished and pure. Because sinfulness cannot come into his presence. Therefore, we need to have accepted Jesus as our saviour and redeemer, first of all.
Now... when you are here.. as a Christian.. and you want to come into God's presence, it is good to have a clear conscience too. And in order to get that, come to God in prayer and confess to him anything you may feel guilty of, and ask Jesus to forgive your sins and wash you clean with his blood. All you have to have for that is faith, and sincerity. You don't have to twist Jesus's arm... because that is what he does. :)
The next thing you need to know is that the Bible says without faith it is impossible to please God. And, it also says that if you lack faith, you can (and should) ask God to give you more faith... because even that is a gift from God. And then... with your faith... you can come to God in prayer, and ask him to come into his presence, and that he should reveal himself to you. Trust and believe that he will answer your prayer. And persist in this -- God will for sure answer you if you are sincere with him, but it may not be immediately. It will be in his time -- it could be immediately, but it could also be tomorrow, next week, or in a few months.. we should also have patience and wait on him. Seek God in prayer, and spend some private time in worship, and asking him to come into your life in a tangible way, and to show you his will.
Ok, thanks for the help. I understand. With faith, everything is possible! I have faith that Jesus will be always with me, so i think i am already experienciating him, i am very happy now. Maybe happyness is the manifestation of God in our life!
Ok, thanks for the help. I understand. With faith, everything is possible! I have faith that Jesus will be always with me, so i think i am already experienciating him, i am very happy now. Maybe happyness is the manifestation of God in our life!
Just so everyone in this thread knows -- this person "ScaredGirl11" was a sockpuppet of Heathers, trolling. Really bad stuff, inexcusable. I'm not letting him back early now from self-imposed temp ban (3 months).
Colonel Frank Grimes
10-09-2018, 12:16 AM
Depression is ridiculed at by many westerners, I know since student days that some bullies have mental problems, somehow a few people can manage to transfer their issues unto other people by forcing their interests. The weaker people are left to deal on their own and take the blame. When people ridicule others should reflect on their own impeccability first. You calling it nonsense is over-reaction, google "Depression and Criminal Behavior" there are a lot studies about their correlation.
How about you tell me the studies since you're clearly informed on the issue. That way I can see the same studies you looked at and see how you misinterpreted them. The fact you said 'Depression also possibly has played more roles in criminal activities, it is more prevalent than we have imagined" is nonsense. It reveals you think a prevalence of a condition means it's a cause (or one of many causes) for crime: does your studies say that or are you misinterpreting those studies because of your own baggage?
It also doesn't help that you're all over the place in your post. It's like you're trying to shoe horn what you were thinking about on another subject into this subject.
Marxists are liars, and radical atheists, they make a typical target.
Not all atheists are Marxists. You're simply trying to force your baggage into the issue. That's what people with baggage do.
Hexachordia
10-09-2018, 01:08 AM
How about you tell me the studies since you're clearly informed on the issue. That way I can see the same studies you looked at and see how you misinterpreted them. The fact you said 'Depression also possibly has played more roles in criminal activities, it is more prevalent than we have imagined" is nonsense. It reveals you think a prevalence of a condition means it's a cause (or one of many causes) for crime: does your studies say that or are you misinterpreting those studies because of your own baggage?
It also doesn't help that you're all over the place in your post. It's like you're trying to shoe horn what you were thinking about on another subject into this subject.
Not all atheists are Marxists. You're simply trying to force your baggage into the issue. That's what people with baggage do.
You are welcomed to quote the passages from the study to show me where I misinterpreted. I did not pay to read it, just infered from long experience. Non-marxist atheists are even more eligible for answering the question why marxists abuse life as much as cultists do, because they claim the most reasonable position among all polemists. I did separate Sir Russell from marxists, and had in mind awaiting non-marxist fellows to answer my question given their eligibility to this problem.
Colonel Frank Grimes
10-09-2018, 01:25 AM
You are welcomed to quote the passages from the study to show me where I misinterpreted. I did not pay to read it, just infered from long experience.
What study? You didn't post one.
You said there were many studies. Now you say you haven't even read this one study that you didn't even post and that you 'inferred' from on your own experience.
So in other words you were bullshiting.
Non-marxist atheists are even more eligible for answering the question why marxists abuse life as much as cultists do, because they claim the most reasonable position among all polemists. I did separate Sir Russell from marxists, and had in mind awaiting non-marxist fellows to answer my question given their eligibility to this problem.
I'm not even bothering with your nonsense anymore and it is nonsense. You lied, dude. You flat out lied. All of this talk of 'many studies' came down to 'infer from long experience.' How very ironic.
Hexachordia
10-09-2018, 01:32 AM
What study? You didn't post one.
You said there were many studies. Now you say you haven't even read this one study that you didn't even post and that you 'inferred' from on your own experience.
So in other words you were bullshiting.
I'm not even bothering with your nonsense anymore and it is nonsense. You lied, dude. You flat out lied. All of this talk of 'many studies' came down to 'infer from long experience.' How very ironic.
You know censorship? Yahoo, Google is at your service not mine. I used bing dot com.
I was asking for your quote using the advantage of freedom of speech on your part to expediently show me I was gravely wrong and you still refused to do it. I agree to end this nonsense.
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