Is R1a-Z93 originally Iranian or Turanian?

[cyberlorian]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/World_Map_of_Y-DNA_Haplogroups.png

[Proto-Shaman]

Lyook at these mappings and you'll see what Iranians are, basically Dravidians.

https://i.imgur.com/Lfrb6iO.jpg

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Lyook at these mappings and you'll see what Iranians are, basically Dravidians.

https://i.imgur.com/Lfrb6iO.jpg

Ok, i am not going into how Kipchaks looked alike (there are many interpretations), but do you think that proto-Turks (in general) looked like this man?

[Proto-Shaman]

Ok, i am not going into how Kipchaks looked alike (there are many interpretations), but do you think that proto-Turks (in general) looked like this man?
Proto-Turks didn't have a unique phenotype. Z93 is basically Kipchak, that's it. Azerbaijanis and Turks from eastern Anatolia for example have the most ancient haplotypes of R1a. Original Oghuses looked more like modern Turkmens. Siberian Turks looked more like North American Indians and Siberians. Oghurs looked more like Germanics, Finnics and Ugrians. Karluks looked like a mix of Oghuzes, Kipchaks and Germanics.

[Artek]

Proto-Turks didn't have a unique phenotype. Z93 is basically Kipchak, that's it. Azerbaijanis and Turks from eastern Anatolia for example have the most ancient haplotypes of R1a. Original Oghuses looked more like modern Turkmens. Siberian Turks looked more like North American Indians and Siberians. Oghurs looked more like Germanics, Finnics and Ugrians. Karluks looked like a mix of Oghuzes, Kipchaks and Germanics.
Kurds and turkified Iranic speakers* and not the ancient haplotypes but quite recent YP5018 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP5018/, TMRCA of this "ancient" clade is 2600 years and even if all known R1a Project members tested with a Big Y, an age wouldn't rise beyond 3000-3500 years. It is just a re-expansion of almost-extinct lineage.

[Proto-Shaman]

Kurds and turkified Iranic speakers* and not the ancient haplotypes but quite recent YP5018 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP5018/, TMRCA of this "ancient" clade is 2600 years and even if all known R1a Project members tested with a Big Y, an age wouldn't rise beyond 3000-3500 years. It is just a re-expansion of almost-extinct lineage.
This is of course the Turkic history which has been presented in favor of the old-fashioned Indo-European trend. It is not only ridiculous to connect R1a with with non-Turkic speakers in the oriental world, but also even more ridiculous to put Underhill's cognitive abilities in questions. Ancient haplotypes of R1a among non-Turkic speakers are only found within the sphere of Turkic spiritual route: Brahmins and Arabs. I hope you do realize how pathetic your point of view is. Be happy that I answered to such ignorance at all (no offense). It's over. Latest studies already proved IE to be a collapsing theory.

[zarzian]

:laugh:

[cyberlorian]

:laugh:

?

[Yaglakar]

r1a and all its subclades could be traced back to Turkified Indo-Europeans.

http://www.imageup.ru/img113/2344557/karta.jpg

The Hunnu/Xiongnu bottom Q burial belt is where the original proto-Turks originated from (my opinion). They pushed northwards and Turkified r1a carriers.

[Leto]

r1a and all its subclades could be traced back to Turkified Indo-Europeans.

http://www.imageup.ru/img113/2344557/karta.jpg

The Hunnu/Xiongnu bottom Q burial belt is where the original proto-Turks originated from (my opinion). They pushed northwards and Turkified r1a carriers.
Hey man, how are your 23andme results?

[Ryuk]

Although I did not agree that Xiongnus were the ancestor of Proto turkics(they were just proto Oghuz),I can agree that the Q haplogroup is one of the marks of proto Turks.

If anyone want to learn about the motherland and migration of proto Turks, please read the links below.


http://archive.is/Kt533

http://chuvashlar.blogspot.com/2012/...uages.html?m=1

http://chuvashlar.blogspot.com/2012/...and_7.html?m=1

http://chuvashlar.blogspot.com/2012/...ation.html?m=1

[Yaglakar]

Hey man, how are your 23andme results?

After two months of waiting, they rejected my sample. :D

My friend went back to Belarus for a long holiday and I mailed the sample directly to their facility in US. :picard1:

What do you think of familytreedna autosomal? I believe they ship worldwide and I could get my Y-DNA markers with autosomal data for 250$ something.

[Leto]

After two months of waiting, they rejected my sample. :D

My friend went back to Belarus for a long holiday and I mailed the sample directly to their facility in US. :picard1:

What do you think of familytreedna autosomal? I believe they ship worldwide and I could get my Y-DNA markers with autosomal data for 250$ something.
That's pretty unfortunate.

Yeah, FTDNA is not bad for Asians. Go for it if you have the money.

[Yaglakar]

Ok, i am not going into how Kipchaks looked alike (there are many interpretations), but do you think that proto-Turks (in general) looked like this man?

Early Kipchak kurgan stelae:

http://annales.info/step/pletneva/polov100.jpg

Late Kipchak kurgan stelae:

http://annales.info/step/pletneva/polov113.jpg

After Kipchaks were kicked out of Mongolia and expanded westwards, they continuously absorbed various Caucasoid populations which in turn altered their physical appearance, so their balbals became more and more Caucasoid. :D

Same happened earlier with Huns, Avars, Bulgars

[cyberlorian]

After two months of waiting, they rejected my sample. :D

My friend went back to Belarus for a long holiday and I mailed the sample directly to their facility in US. :picard1:

What do you think of familytreedna autosomal? I believe they ship worldwide and I could get my Y-DNA markers with autosomal data for 250$ something.

Why did they reject?

[Yaglakar]

Why did they reject?

It was USA kit. They only accept samples which are mailed from a United States address.

[Borealis]

Neither-it’s Pontic.

[Kaspias]

R1a, R1b, Q are basically Scythian - Steppe Y-DNA.

Most of Turks carry various subclades of R1a, especially Z93. This is not a coincidence or assimilation. You can't generalize it "ey yo r1a is indo iranian haploo yeaa hey luk turkified iranians hehe"

It is Turkic.

[Proto-Shaman]

Supplementary Tables 1-5 (https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201450#supplementary-information)

https://i.imgur.com/FEd7z4f.png

https://i.imgur.com/kVhx1h7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1QcBfKT.gif

[Aren]

R1a, R1b, Q are basically Scythian - Steppe Y-DNA.

Most of Turks carry various subclades of R1a, especially Z93. This is not a coincidence or assimilation. You can't generalize it "ey yo r1a is indo iranian haploo yeaa hey luk turkified iranians hehe"

It is Turkic.

Lol?
Ofc it's assimilation. Long before the Scythians emerged, R1a-Z293 was present around the Eurasian Steppe in populations with 0% Mongoloid auDNA, it was clearly an early proto-Indo-Iranian marker who later on was assimilated into various Turkic speaking tribes.
ultimately ofc R-M417 and it's downstream subclades originated in Eastern Europe, in EHG populations.

[Proto-Shaman]

Lol?
Ofc it's assimilation. Long before the Scythians emerged, R1a-Z293 was present around the Eurasian Steppe in populations with 0% Mongoloid auDNA, it was clearly an early proto-Indo-Iranian marker who later on was assimilated into various Turkic speaking tribes.
ultimately ofc R-M417 and it's downstream subclades originated in Eastern Europe, in EHG populations.
THE ULTIMATE BRAIN CANCER EFFECT
https://i.imgur.com/kVhx1h7.jpg

[Ryuk]

Although the oldest example of Z93 is found in eastern Europe,this does not necessarily mean that it was born there.

R1a M417,which is very rare today,was spread throught baltic to Lake Baikal during the Mesolithic period.and its origin probably in baikal area

Z93 may be similar to the past,but in order to say something certain, more extensive research has to be done in Ancient Siberia and Central Asia.

As for me,I can't say anything about the Y DNA of the PBT people,maybe Z93 maybe something else.


Haplogroup R1a1a1-M417 (formed ca. 6500 BC, TMRCA ca. 3500 BC) is first found in the Karelian hunter-gatherer dated ca. 6425 BC. Two samples of R1a1a1-M417, dated ca. 5250 BC, have also been found in Early Neolithic Baikalic cultures near the zone where the ancient Mal’ta-Buret’ culture was located. Strontium isotope ratios confirm their local origin, with high paternal heterogeneity, with a trend to replacement by east Eurasian lineages during the Late Neolithic[Moussa et al. 2016].


Given the Eurasian origin of the eastern European pottery (see Mesolithic-Neolithic transition) and its westward expansion into Europe, the likely eastern origin of EHG ancestry and R1a1a1-M417 lineages, it seems logical to find a common origin of both populations (from eastern Europe and the Baikal region) in an expansion from Eurasian territory, dated around the subclade’s formation date.

from https://indo-european.info/ie/R1a-M420_and_East_Hunter-Gatherers

[samario]

OK, guys. My Y-DNA is marked as Z93 and my father's lineage comes from Spain. So you're telling me Turkic tribes settled in Spain centuries ago?

Other forumers claim it is of Alanic origin.

[Leto]

OK, guys. My Y-DNA is marked as Z93 and my father's lineage comes from Spain. So you're telling me Turkic tribes settled in Spain centuries ago?

Other forumers claim it is of Alanic origin.
It is originally Indo-European and there were no Turkics in Spain.

[Kyp]

Indo-European>Iranic>Turanian

[Pine]

It's West Asian (East West Asian, betting on Iran). There are Bedouin tribes which are majority R-Z93. With the Saudis at the basal branches of R-Z93's children clades around TMRCA of R-Z93, calling it Indo-European is misleading.

[Pine]

OK, guys. My Y-DNA is marked as Z93 and my father's lineage comes from Spain. So you're telling me Turkic tribes settled in Spain centuries ago?

Other forumers claim it is of Alanic origin.

You may descend from Roman soldier of Middle Eastern stock, a Morisco, or a Jew. What's your subclade?

[Annihilus]

OK, guys. My Y-DNA is marked as Z93 and my father's lineage comes from Spain. So you're telling me Turkic tribes settled in Spain centuries ago?

Other forumers claim it is of Alanic origin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Colombians

a subclade would really help

[TribalSky]

A subclade would help.
I'm English with a Z93 haplo with the subclade of Y52>YP1270/1269. Its fairly certain my male line were Scytho-Sarmatians and reached England when Marcus Aurelius sent his 5,500 Sarmatian cavalry there to guard Hadrians wall and keep back the Picts, apparently (Not sure if this is true or not) there were only 7 Sarmatians left guarding the wall when their service ended which accounts for the rarity of this YDNA in England. This is backed up by Y52 being a strong Sarmatian clade and being found in Sarmatian burial kurgans around Rostov on Don.
I would expect some of the presence in Spain to be from the Alans with merged with the Visigoths and entered after the vandals. The presence of Z93 in France can also be attributed mostly to the Alans settling in Gaul and some Z93 in Switzerland can be attributed to the Alans settling in Savoy.

[Pine]

A subclade would help.
I'm English with a Z93 haplo with the subclade of Y52>YP1270/1269. Its fairly certain my male line were Scytho-Sarmatians and reached England when Marcus Aurelius sent his 5,500 Sarmatian cavalry there to guard Hadrians wall and keep back the Picts, apparently (Not sure if this is true or not) there were only 7 Sarmatians left guarding the wall when their service ended which accounts for the rarity of this YDNA in England. This is backed up by Y52 being a strong Sarmatian clade and being found in Sarmatian burial kurgans around Rostov on Don.
I would expect some of the presence in Spain to be from the Alans with merged with the Visigoths and entered after the vandals. The presence of Z93 in France can also be attributed mostly to the Alans settling in Gaul and some Z93 in Switzerland can be attributed to the Alans settling in Savoy.

You need more evidence for a theory like that.

[lameduck]

it is originally of indian origin

[TribalSky]

Not really, no.

My evidence is in Archaeological findings, population genetics and movements. Z93>Y52 is found mainly in the Steppes and Scytho-Sarmat burials. The most likely and confident answer is that it was with those 5,500 Sarmats who came to England in 175AD. Maybe with an Alanic YDNA line in Gaul who came over in the Conquest as part of Williams Frankish troops but this still has the same outcome of being Scytho-Sarmat. The presence in England, Western Europe and Eastern Europe for Z93 is very slim in relation to other haplos of R1a, Plus we know that Z93>Z94 is a West Asian clade and those sub clades are found predominantly in Scythians, Sarmats and Alans of R1a.

[Artek]

It's West Asian (East West Asian, betting on Iran). There are Bedouin tribes which are majority R-Z93. With the Saudis at the basal branches of R-Z93's children clades around TMRCA of R-Z93, calling it Indo-European is misleading.

Do the same degree of testing to Iranians or any other big population and you will see that there are many various Z93 clades everywhere and that the clades will be much more internally diverse in Iran than in Arabia. These Bedouin tribes with majority of R-Z93 consist of one or at maximum two lines that have exploded between 800 and 1300 years ago. I manage close to 10.000 samples of R1a at R1a project and I see such patterns.

Finding basal branches anywhere is often irrelevant, because R1a-Z93 likely originated in parts of Eastern Europe that were not densely inhabited and it was easy to replace one line with another. The case for semi-urbanised densely inhabited places like the Middle East was very different. If something migrated there it likely remained there and shown continuation despite disastrous pandemics or mongol invasion. Europe still has some remnant Z93 subsets that can't be associated with Jews/Tatars and their connection to Scythians/Sarmatians/Huns is not clear.

Most of R1a in Arabs seems to be Persian/Mede in origin, the rest is probably Scytho-Sarmatian and South Asian. The smallest part may be even Turkic.

[Leto]

I manage close to 10.000 samples of R1a at R1a project and I see such patterns.

Can the project fund a Y-37 for me? :D The tests are expensive and I'm low on money these days. My line is from Belarus, I want to know if it's truly Balto-Slavic because at the Y12 level I get a lot of weird Balkar and Jewish matches and I can't believe my line is Asian. Autosomally my father gets none of that stuff. Maybe someone is interested in testing Belarus Y-DNA, my grandfather was from Minsk oblast, his father was presumably local too.

[Pine]

Finding basal branches anywhere is often irrelevant, because R1a-Z93 likely originated in parts of Eastern Europe that were not densely inhabited and it was easy to replace one line with another. The case for semi-urbanised densely inhabited places like the Middle East was very different. If something migrated there it likely remained there and shown continuation despite disastrous pandemics or mongol invasion. Europe still has some remnant Z93 subsets that can't be associated with Jews/Tatars and their connection to Scythians/Sarmatians/Huns is not clear.


This argument doesn't make it likely that it originated in Easter Europe, but simply plausible.

[Artek]

Can the project fund a Y-37 for me? :D The tests are expensive and I'm low on money these days. My line is from Belarus, I want to know if it's truly Balto-Slavic because at the Y12 level I get a lot of weird Balkar and Jewish matches and I can't believe my line is Asian. Autosomally my father gets none of that stuff. Maybe someone is interested in testing Belarus Y-DNA, my grandfather was from Minsk oblast, his father was presumably local too.

We sometimes (partially) fund one or two relic lines (like former M420*), budget like thousands of $ is needed for cases like yours, unfortunately.


This argument doesn't make it likely that it originated in Easter Europe, but simply plausible.

That's why aDNA is the most important.

[samario]

My father is not a Morisco, Arab or Jew, not that I know of. My mother seems to be of partial Sephardic Jew or Converso background, though. Still, we're talking about Y-DNA here. I've read a bit about R-Z93 and it's plausible it came along with troops of Scythians or tribes alike to northern Spain in places like Asturias, the place where my surname hails from. The Visigoths, the Suebi people and other Germanic peoples settled the northwestern coast of Spain, maybe they merged with the Central Asian tribes or assimilated Scythians/Alans as their own, dunno. Some people from Asturias bear this same haplogroup from information I've gathered on forums.

I've also read R-Z93 is the most common in the Altai region of Russia. 23AndMe indicates as follows (about my paternal haplogroup):


Haplogroup R-M420 25,000 Years Ago
Your ancestral path forked off again over 25,000 years ago in western Asia, at the beginning of the last great peak of the Ice Age. Massive glaciers covered northern Eurasia, but farther south in the Iranian Plateau your ancestors flourished. When the Ice Age finally gave way to our warmer climate nearly 11,500 years ago, a new era of migrations from the Middle East began and eventually carried haplogroup R-M420 across the continent.

https://you.23andme.com/static/img/reports/paternal_haplogroup/maps/R1a/desktop/R1a@1x.4b220f446989.png

Origin and Migrations of Haplogroup R-M512
From the Middle East, men bearing R-M420 likely passed through the Caucasus mountains to the steppes above the Black and Caspian Seas. The people of the steppes were the first to domesticate horses nearly 6,000 years ago, and their southern neighbors in the Caucasus developed the earliest bronze tools and weaponry. Equipped with these technologies and seeking new grazing land and natural resources, the people of the steppes swept west into northern Europe and east through Central Asia.

Your paternal line stems from a branch of R-M420 called R-M512. Today, the men who share your haplogroup are most common in Eastern Europe, Russia and Ukraine. The lineage is also quite common in Poland, but decreases in frequency toward the Mediterranean countries. Farther to the west, about one-third of Norwegian men and a quarter of men from the far northern British Isles carry R-M512. Their ancestors arrived with various groups over the past 2,000 years, including with the Anglo-Saxons from central Europe in the 5th century and the Vikings who came from Scandinavia beginning about 800 CE.

Additionally, the haplogroup is still relatively common in the Middle East, as well as in Central and South Asia where it reaches levels of up to 60% among the Kyrgyz and the Tajiks.

Your paternal haplogroup, R-Z93, traces back to a man who lived approximately 6,000 years ago.
That's nearly 240.0 generations ago! What happened between then and now? As researchers and citizen scientists discover more about your haplogroup, new details may be added to the story of your paternal line.

Please read the bolded part. I think it's pretty conclusive.

Which is the bestest test for subclades?

[Leto]

My father is not a Morisco, Arab or Jew, not that I know of. My mother seems to be of partial Sephardic Jew or Converso background, though. Still, we're talking about Y-DNA here. I've read a bit about R-Z93 and it's plausible it came along with troops of Scythians or tribes alike to northern Spain in places like Asturias, the place where my surname hails from. The Visigoths, the Suebi people and other Germanic peoples settled the northwestern coast of Spain, maybe they merged with the Central Asian tribes or assimilated Scythians/Alans as their own, dunno. Some people from Asturias bear this same haplogroup from information I've gathered on forums.

I've also read R-Z93 is the most common in the Altai region of Russia. 23AndMe indicates as follows (about my paternal haplogroup):



Please read the bolded part. I think it's pretty conclusive.

Which is the bestest test for subclades?
Well, that line must have migrated to Iberia even before the Moorish invasion, so around 1,500 years ago. I know it's kinda cool but the truth is you have nothing in common with those ancient peoples autosomally. You aren't even Spanish. If you're quarter Lebanese and nearly 40% Native and Black, you're probably only 30-35% Spanish or so. Visigothic and Alanic influence in Spain is minimal in terms of genetics. They're mostly Celtiberian + a bit of North African and some other things here and there.

[samario]

Well, that line must have migrated to Iberia even before the Moorish invasion, so around 1,500 years ago. I know it's kinda cool but the truth is you have nothing in common with those ancient peoples autosomally. You aren't even Spanish. If you're quarter Lebanese and nearly 40% Native and Black, you're probably only 30-35% Spanish or so. Visigothic and Alanic influence in Spain is minimal in terms of genetics. They're mostly Celtiberian + a bit of North African and some other things here and there.

I don't agree. I haven't claimed to be autosomally Alanic or Visigothic, these are clearly ancient peoples that go back hundreds of years. Although I score some degree of North Sea and Atlantic ancestry on GEDmatch so that's not entirely true...

I think I have enough Spanish ancestry to claim links with Spain, I don't think it's accurate to say I'm not Spanish. Besides, I'm most likely of Converso background, too so I'm not cutting ties with Spaniards and Canaanites (Israelites). I'm also 1/4 NA and got some SSA. The first 3 account for nearly 90% of my DNA. I'm not Lebanese.

There's not one single ethnic group that stands out above the rest on my 23AndMe DNA report, unless we group the European and Levantine percentages together which covers about 60% aprox. of my DNA (using GEDmatch calculators).

I personally am not going to look past my Y-DNA line. I think it has a meaning, sometimes symbolical, which doesn't necessarily reflect on autosomal numbers, that I'm aware of. It's important to keep track of your lineage, nonetheless.

[Leto]

I don't agree. I haven't claimed to be autosomally Alanic or Visigothic, these are clearly ancient peoples that go back hundreds of years. Although I score some degree of North Sea and Atlantic ancestry on GEDmatch so it's not entirely true...

I think I have enough Spanish ancestry to claim links with Spain, I don't think it's accurate to say I'm not Spanish. Besides, I'm most likely of Converso background, too so I'm not cutting ties with Spaniards and Canaanites (Israelites). I'm also 1/4 NA and got some SSA. The first 3 account for nearly 90% of my DNA. I'm not Lebanese.

There's not one single ethnic group that stands out above the rest on my 23AndMe DNA report, unless we group the European and Levantine percentages together which covers about 60% aprox. of my DNA (using GEDmatch calculators).

I personally am not going to look past my Y-DNA line. I think it has a meaning, sometimes symbolical, which doesn't necessarily reflect on autosomal numbers, that I'm aware of. It's important to keep track of your lineage, nonetheless.
You clearly have recent Middle Eastern ancestry, Spanish people in Spain don't get 27% Western Asian on 23andme. Even 5% would be strange, I think.

[samario]

Spaniards don’t, but Jews who converted to Catholicism might.

[Slavic Italian]

Can the project fund a Y-37 for me? :D The tests are expensive and I'm low on money these days. My line is from Belarus, I want to know if it's truly Balto-Slavic because at the Y12 level I get a lot of weird Balkar and Jewish matches and I can't believe my line is Asian. Autosomally my father gets none of that stuff. Maybe someone is interested in testing Belarus Y-DNA, my grandfather was from Minsk oblast, his father was presumably local too.

R-M512 doesn't that originate in Russia?

[Pine]

My father is not a Morisco, Arab or Jew, not that I know of. My mother seems to be of partial Sephardic Jew or Converso background, though. Still, we're talking about Y-DNA here. I've read a bit about R-Z93 and it's plausible it came along with troops of Scythians or tribes alike to northern Spain in places like Asturias, the place where my surname hails from. The Visigoths, the Suebi people and other Germanic peoples settled the northwestern coast of Spain, maybe they merged with the Central Asian tribes or assimilated Scythians/Alans as their own, dunno. Some people from Asturias bear this same haplogroup from information I've gathered on forums.

I've also read R-Z93 is the most common in the Altai region of Russia. 23AndMe indicates as follows (about my paternal haplogroup):



Please read the bolded part. I think it's pretty conclusive.

Which is the bestest test for subclades?

That 23andMe blurb is irrelevant to you. It's talking about the parent group of R-Z93.

[Leto]

That's why aDNA is the most important.
Can you share your Eurogenes K13 and Dodecad K12b results? I've never seen them.

[porpozontokonto]

OK, guys. My Y-DNA is marked as Z93 and my father's lineage comes from Spain. So you're telling me Turkic tribes settled in Spain centuries ago?

Other forumers claim it is of Alanic origin.

Which part of Spain?

Can you post your full subclade please

[Proto-Shaman]

Most of R1a in Arabs seems to be Persian/Mede in origin,
Epic fail. M420* is a Turkic middle eastern marker, not even close to Persians. Get a life looser.

[Aileron]

Turanian

[Proto-Shaman]

It is originally Indo-European and there were no Turkics in Spain.
It is originally Turkic and there were no Indo-European R1a in Spain.

[Proto-Shaman]

Indo-European>Iranic>Turanian
Turanian (Ural-Altaic)>Iranic>Indo-European

[Kyp]

Turanian (Ural-Altaic)>Iranic>Indo-European

than why it has higher frequency in Persians than in Azerbaijanis or Turkey?

[Proto-Shaman]

It's West Asian (East West Asian, betting on Iran). There are Bedouin tribes which are majority R-Z93. With the Saudis at the basal branches of R-Z93's children clades around TMRCA of R-Z93, calling it Indo-European is misleading.
These apes even claim Sumerians were Indo-European. Don't trust them, they are evil.

[Proto-Shaman]

A subclade would help.
I'm English with a Z93 haplo with the subclade of Y52>YP1270/1269. Its fairly certain my male line were Scytho-Sarmatians and reached England when Marcus Aurelius sent his 5,500 Sarmatian cavalry there to guard Hadrians wall and keep back the Picts, apparently (Not sure if this is true or not) there were only 7 Sarmatians left guarding the wall when their service ended which accounts for the rarity of this YDNA in England. This is backed up by Y52 being a strong Sarmatian clade and being found in Sarmatian burial kurgans around Rostov on Don.
I would expect some of the presence in Spain to be from the Alans with merged with the Visigoths and entered after the vandals. The presence of Z93 in France can also be attributed mostly to the Alans settling in Gaul and some Z93 in Switzerland can be attributed to the Alans settling in Savoy.
Your subclade (Z2122>Y57...) belongs to a mainly Turkic cluster. Here are some portraits of your Turkic relatives: https://www.academia.edu/17661672/BEHPS_3._189-264_Volume_2_3_1_April_2015_

[kalach]

These apes even claim Sumerians were Indo-European. Don't trust them, they are evil.

Are you a Turkish neo-nazi?

[Proto-Shaman]

than why it has higher frequency in Persians than in Azerbaijanis or Turkey?
It's the opposite. From Underhill et al. 2015: https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201450

"paragroup R-M420* is mostly in the Middle East: 5/38 Azerbaijani Turks (Iran), 2/38 Turks and 1/13 in the United Arab Emirates. Of the 24 R1a-M420*(xSRY10831.2) chromosomes, 18 were sampled in Iran and 3 were from eastern Turkey."

And all of them are Azerbaijani/Anatolian Turks and a few Arabs. There are no Persians.

[Proto-Shaman]

Are you a Turkish neo-nazi?
No. Why? I am actually Mongolian.

[kalach]

No. Why? I am actually Mongolian.

How? Aren't you Turkish? Why do you have that avatar then. That guy is a prime example of dolicephial IE you hate.

[Proto-Shaman]

How? Aren't you Turkish? Why do you have that avatar then. That guy is a prime example of dolicephial IE you hate.
Are you crazy? My avatar has nothing to do with you ugly Turks and Nazis.

[porpozontokonto]

It appeared in Andronovo, therefore Turanian. No relation to Iranics.

[Leto]

It is originally Turkic and there were no Indo-European R1a in Spain.


Turanian (Ural-Altaic)>Iranic>Indo-European
Shut up already, it's 2020 and your silly trolling is no longer funny or edgy.

[Proto-Shaman]

Shut up already, it's 2020 and your silly trolling is no longer funny or edgy.
Yeah, it's "2020 Ancient DNA Era", and you still propagate 1940's Indo-European Sikitians bs. Do not make a fool of yourself, it's not funny at all.

[Blondie]

How? Aren't you Turkish?

He's crimean tatar, larping mongolian now. One of the biggest troll in this forum.

[Art23]

R-Z93 is Asiatic for sure. I don't care if Iranian or Turanian. The main thing is that they have nothing to do with Slavic and Germanic subclades of R1a.

[xripkan]

R-Z93 is Asiatic for sure. I don't care if Iranian or Turanian. The main thing is that they have nothing to do with Slavic and Germanic subclades of R1a.

Ancient Iranian tribes were living also in europe, not only Asia.

[Chelubey]

than why it has higher frequency in Persians than in Azerbaijanis or Turkey?
This has long been known : ethnic Persians have very few R1a subclades. "Iranian" subclades of R1a mainly belong to the Turkic-speaking population of Iran

[Arhat]

R-Z93 is Asiatic for sure. I don't care if Iranian or Turanian. The main thing is that they have nothing to do with Slavic and Germanic subclades of R1a.

ah another expert here...

R1a-Z93* exists among ethnic Russians, Poles and West Euros and some of their clades are neither Z2124 or L657 so unlikely from Asia or even Indo-Iranians at all.

Also even Asian Z2124 and L657 both Z93 clades are from Bronze Age Europe and correlate with steppe ancestry in Asia.

Germanic R1a-L664 is more distant from Slavic Z283 than Indo-Iranian Z93>L657 and Z93>Z2124

[Arhat]

This has long been known : ethnic Persians have very few R1a subclades. "Iranian" subclades of R1a mainly belong to the Turkic-speaking population of Iran

Pashtuns are highest in R1a and they are Iranic people. Also all R1a-Z93 clades of Turks have a recent Iranic origin.

[Leto]

Pashtuns are highest in R1a and they are Iranic people. Also all R1a-Z93 clades of Turks have a recent Iranic origin.
Is it roughly the same as the Kyrgyz one? They are 50-60% R1a.
Kirgizia was founded by an ancient white elite who probably resembled me more than modern Kyrgyz people :cool:

[Arhat]

Is it roughly the same as the Kyrgyz one? They are 50-60% R1a.
Kirgizia was founded by an ancient white elite who probably resembled me more than modern Kyrgyz people :cool:

Pashtuns are around 70% R1a at least this is my impression from all Pashtuns samples i have seen (ignoring some tribes like Sadozai who are majority L1c)

[Leto]

I mean the same origin as the Pashtun R1a?

A few studies I've seen put Pashtuns at 40-50% R1a, not 70%. Not even Poles or Belarusians are 70% R1a.

[Arhat]

I mean the same origin as the Pashtun R1a?

A few studies I've seen put Pashtuns at 40-50% R1a, not 70%. Not even Poles or Belarusians are 70% R1a.

Some studies include people of questionable origin especially in Pakistan and Pashtun y-dna frequencies depend very much on the tribe and region.

Ghazni (SE Afghanistan):
- C3: 0+1
- G2: 0+1
- L-M357: 1+0
- Q-M346-: 0+1
- R1a: (6+9)/19=78,9%

Kabul (E Afghanistan; Kabul via Haber, Kabul via Lacau and Paghman via Lacau):
- C3: 0+2+0
- G2: 0+4+0=10,0%
- J2: 0+3+1=10,0%
- L-M357: 0+1+1
- Q-M346-: 3+1+0=10,0%
- R1a: (0+17+8)/41=61,0%

Kandahar (SW Afghanistan):
- C5: 1
- G*: 1
- G2: 1
- H-M82: 2
- L-M76: 1
- L-M357: 1
- Q-M346+: 1
- R*(?): 1 (M198+ according to the table posted by Dienekes)
- R1a-M198+: 5/15=33,3% ==> similar to the R1a frequency in Pakistani Balochs reported by Qamar et al.: 17/59=28,8%
- R2: 1

Kunduz (NE Afghanistan):
- G2: 0+1
- L-M357: 0+3
- Q-M346+: 1+1
- R1a-M198+: 8/17=47,1%
- R2: 3

Laghman (NE Afghanistan):
- G2: 0+1
- H*: 1+0
- H-M82: 1+0
- J2: 1
- L-M357: 1+0
- Q-M346-: 4+0
- R1a: (2+16)/29=62,1%
- R2: 1+1

Logar (E Afghanistan):
- L-M357: 1
- R1a: (4+8)/14=85,7%
- R2: 0+1

Nangarhar Jalalabad (NE Afghanistan):
- C5: 1
- G2: 2
- H-M82: 3
- R1a: (1+14)/22=68,2%
- R1b-L23: 1
(- one more from Nangarhar in J2)

Pakistan (Qamar's sample possibly being from Peshawar, i.e., NE Pakistan, according to Qamar 2002 on p. 1122):
- Qamar's BT*: 15
- Shi's G-M201: 2
- Shi's H: 2
- I: 2+0
- J: 6+0
- Qamar's K*: 6
- L-M20: 12+2
- Qamar's P(xR1a): 10
- Shi's P-M45+, MEH2-, M207-: 1
- Shi's Q-MEH2+: 1
- Shi's R-M207+, M173-, M124-: 1
- Shi's R1b-M269: 2
- R1a: (42+8)/(19+93)=44,6%

Parwan (NE Afghanistan):
- H-M82: 1+0
- J2: 0+1
- L-M76: 0+1
- L-M357: 0+4
- Q-M346+: 0+1
- R1a: (7+10)/27=63,0%
- R2: 0+2

Sources: the according papers by Lacau et al., Haber et al., Shi et al. and Qamar et al.

[Leto]

Nice. Tajiks are only 25-30% R1a (two Afghan studies at least).

[Chelubey]

Pashtuns are highest in R1a and they are Iranic people. Also all R1a-Z93 clades of Turks have a recent Iranic origin.

Can you prove this by the example of phylogeny? Age of the Pashtun subclade z2124?

[Arhat]

Can you prove this by the example of phylogeny? Age of the Pashtun subclade z2124?

Pashtuns belong to YP413 which pretty much does not exist among modern day or ancient Turkic people

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP413/

[Leto]

@Arhat, is your Kabuli ancestry from Persianized Pashtuns?
Hussein Khan (his current account is Nomansman) said some Kabulis are very South Asian. I guess assimilated Pakis.

[Kyp]

Pashtuns belong to YP413 which pretty much does not exist among modern day or ancient Turkic people

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP413/

Do you know anything about Azerbaijani clades?

[Chelubey]

Pashtuns belong to YP413 which pretty much does not exist among modern day or ancient Turkic people

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP413/
U said:


Also all R1a-Z93 clades of Turks have a recent Iranic origin.

Proofs?

[Arhat]

Do you know anything about Azerbaijani clades?

On yfull i have seen only one Azeri R1a-Z93 sample belonging to R-F1345 (common in West Asia, Iran and among Jews). But we can pretty surely say that Azeri belong to all kind of Z93 clades including L657 and Z2124.

[Proto-Shaman]

Is it roughly the same as the Kyrgyz one? They are 50-60% R1a.
Kirgizia was founded by an ancient white elite who probably resembled me more than modern Kyrgyz people :cool:
In your wet dreams you dirty wannabe Indo-European mongrol :laugh:
https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/modern-steppe-ancestry-map.png

It's more like Polakia and Co. was founded by an ancient Turk elite who probably resembled Tatars more than modern Slavic people :cool:

[Proto-Shaman]

Pashtuns are around 70% R1a at least this is my impression from all Pashtuns samples i have seen (ignoring some tribes like Sadozai who are majority L1c)
https://turkipedia.fandom.com/wiki/Andronovo_culture#R1a_in_Pashtuns = is Turkic

[Proto-Shaman]

Some studies include people of questionable origin especially in Pakistan and Pashtun y-dna frequencies depend very much on the tribe and region.

Ghazni (SE Afghanistan):
- C3: 0+1
- G2: 0+1
- L-M357: 1+0
- Q-M346-: 0+1
- R1a: (6+9)/19=78,9%

Kabul (E Afghanistan; Kabul via Haber, Kabul via Lacau and Paghman via Lacau):
- C3: 0+2+0
- G2: 0+4+0=10,0%
- J2: 0+3+1=10,0%
- L-M357: 0+1+1
- Q-M346-: 3+1+0=10,0%
- R1a: (0+17+8)/41=61,0%

Kandahar (SW Afghanistan):
- C5: 1
- G*: 1
- G2: 1
- H-M82: 2
- L-M76: 1
- L-M357: 1
- Q-M346+: 1
- R*(?): 1 (M198+ according to the table posted by Dienekes)
- R1a-M198+: 5/15=33,3% ==> similar to the R1a frequency in Pakistani Balochs reported by Qamar et al.: 17/59=28,8%
- R2: 1

Kunduz (NE Afghanistan):
- G2: 0+1
- L-M357: 0+3
- Q-M346+: 1+1
- R1a-M198+: 8/17=47,1%
- R2: 3

Laghman (NE Afghanistan):
- G2: 0+1
- H*: 1+0
- H-M82: 1+0
- J2: 1
- L-M357: 1+0
- Q-M346-: 4+0
- R1a: (2+16)/29=62,1%
- R2: 1+1

Logar (E Afghanistan):
- L-M357: 1
- R1a: (4+8)/14=85,7%
- R2: 0+1

Nangarhar Jalalabad (NE Afghanistan):
- C5: 1
- G2: 2
- H-M82: 3
- R1a: (1+14)/22=68,2%
- R1b-L23: 1
(- one more from Nangarhar in J2)

Pakistan (Qamar's sample possibly being from Peshawar, i.e., NE Pakistan, according to Qamar 2002 on p. 1122):
- Qamar's BT*: 15
- Shi's G-M201: 2
- Shi's H: 2
- I: 2+0
- J: 6+0
- Qamar's K*: 6
- L-M20: 12+2
- Qamar's P(xR1a): 10
- Shi's P-M45+, MEH2-, M207-: 1
- Shi's Q-MEH2+: 1
- Shi's R-M207+, M173-, M124-: 1
- Shi's R1b-M269: 2
- R1a: (42+8)/(19+93)=44,6%

Parwan (NE Afghanistan):
- H-M82: 1+0
- J2: 0+1
- L-M76: 0+1
- L-M357: 0+4
- Q-M346+: 0+1
- R1a: (7+10)/27=63,0%
- R2: 0+2

Sources: the according papers by Lacau et al., Haber et al., Shi et al. and Qamar et al.

And here is the R1a reality: (Underhill et. al. 2015 study)
https://i.imgur.com/DQJzchq.png

[Proto-Shaman]

Pashtuns belong to YP413 which pretty much does not exist among modern day or ancient Turkic people

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP413/

Are you actually aware of the fact that all these subclades are mainly Arabic, and not even 1 imaginary Iranian. Your insane conspiracy theory knows no limits.
https://i.imgur.com/6mOCZD6.png

[samario]

R-Z93 is Asiatic for sure. I don't care if Iranian or Turanian. The main thing is that they have nothing to do with Slavic and Germanic subclades of R1a.

How did it end up in Spain? Not sure about R-Z93 being completely unrelated to Slavic and Germanic tribes.

[samario]

Which part of Spain?

Can you post your full subclade please

Allegedly Asturias. Haven't got a subclade.

[Pine]

Allegedly Asturias. Haven't got a subclade.

Try YDNAMorley

[Pine]

How did it end up in Spain? Not sure about R-Z93 being completely unrelated to Slavic and Germanic tribes.

Either some kinda Caucasian/Iranian/Anatolian arrived to another part of Europe and his descendant arrived in Spain or a Semite arrived in Spain.

[porpozontokonto]

Allegedly Asturias. Haven't got a subclade.

probably from sarmatians who migrated with visigoths

[Kamal900]

It's Indo-European central Asiatic marker that is commonly found among Indo-Iranians(Aryans), Semitic(Jewish Levites and Shammari Arabs) and Turkic peoples(mostly in central asia).

[Kamal900]

Are you actually aware of the fact that all these subclades are mainly Arabic, and not even 1 imaginary Iranian. Your insane conspiracy theory knows no limits.
https://i.imgur.com/6mOCZD6.png

That's because many Arabs in the Persian gulf have Iranian ancestry, you ass.

[Proto-Shaman]

That's because many Arabs in the Persian gulf have Iranian ancestry, you ass.
You must be a braindead whore. Very clear you are not Arab, but Indo-European colonialist. That's for sure. Learn genetics before jerking off with your wet fantasies. Pashtun YP413's brother clades Z2123 (Karachays, Bashkirs, Balkars, Tatars) and S23592 (Kyrgyz) are totally Turkic. Z2125 (hardcore Turkic) is the ancestor of all these clades. The brother clade of Z2125 is Z2122, which again is totally Caucasian-Turkic and Jewish. The only hardcore non-Turkic clade is M780 which peaks among Mongol-faced Nepalese and Indian Rajasthanis with Steppe_MLBA Tatar autosomes. The brother clade of M780 and Z2125 is Y40, a totally Indo-Arab clade. And last but not least Z93* paragroup, a totally hardcore Turko clade as well. Where is your fantasy Iranian? Let me give you the answer: IN YOUR WET INDO-EUROPEAN DREAMS.

[Kamal900]

You must be a braindead whore. Very clear you are not Arab, but Indo-European colonialist. That's for sure. Learn genetics before jerking off with your wet fantasies. Pashtun YP413's brother clades Z2123 (Karachays, Bashkirs, Balkars, Tatars) and S23592 (Kyrgyz) are totally Turkic. Z2125 (hardcore Turkic) is the ancestor of all these clades. The brother clade of Z2125 is Z2122, which again is totally Caucasian-Turkic and Jewish. The only hardcore non-Turkic clade is M780 which peaks among Mongol-faced Nepalese and Indian Rajasthanis with Steppe_MLBA Tatar autosomes. The brother clade of M780 and Z2125 is Y40, a totally Indo-Arab clade. And last but not least Z93* paragroup, a totally hardcore Turko clade as well. Where is your fantasy Iranian? Let me give you the answer: IN YOUR WET INDO-EUROPEAN DREAMS.

These haplogroups are not Turkic since it originated from central asia, you ass. The R1a among Arabians is not indigenous to the region either since the haplogroup was brought to the middle east since ancient times by PIE groups. Turkic peoples originated from East Asia where they mixed and assimilated Indo-European men into their fold, and thus, many Turkic peoples have great genetic affinities to the ancient Indo-Europeans of Asia. Arabs originated in the Southern Levant and NW Hijaz, not from the mainland Arabian peninsula, a term that was coined by the ancient Greeks when they met the ancient Arabs in the Sinai peninsula and thought all of the inhabitants were Arabs even though most of them weren't. If anything really, the proto-Turkic peoples would have resembled far more closely to Mongolic and Tungunsic peoples like Machurians and etc than to the Indo-European peoples of Asia and Eastern Europe.

[Proto-Shaman]

These haplogroups are not Turkic since it originated from central asia,...
Are you mentally ill? This sentence doesn't even make sense. A random human being would certify you the sick report. Just mental illness. I can't describe you in a different way. I wish I could but I can't. I feel pity for you.


The R1a among Arabians is not indigenous to the region either since the haplogroup was brought to the middle east since ancient times by PIE groups.
The problem is you have only 2 PIE options:

1: Mongol-faced Nepalese M780
2: Turkic Z2125

See it? Moron...


Turkic peoples originated from East Asia where they mixed and assimilated Indo-European men into their fold, and thus, many Turkic peoples have great genetic affinities to the ancient Indo-Europeans of Asia.
And I am Santa Claus. or..Wait a minute ANE-people and West Siberian_Hunter_Gatherers were Indo-Euripeans, too? Bro, the whole universe was Indo-European. I am sure, you are Indo-European, too. Everybidy is Indo-Euripean, even Ainu and Andaman Islanders.


If anything really, the proto-Turkic peoples would have resembled far more closely to Mongolic and Tungunsic peoples like Machurians and etc than to the Indo-European peoples of Asia and Eastern Europe.
Indo-Europeans are bastardized Turks. Face it, bastard.

[Proto-Shaman]

For sick-minded spirits, these are M780 and Z2125 clades of R1a:

https://i.imgur.com/dWApkoo.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5RhQthY.jpg

[Pine]

You must be a braindead whore. Very clear you are not Arab, but Indo-European colonialist. That's for sure. Learn genetics before jerking off with your wet fantasies. Pashtun YP413's brother clades Z2123 (Karachays, Bashkirs, Balkars, Tatars) and S23592 (Kyrgyz) are totally Turkic. Z2125 (hardcore Turkic) is the ancestor of all these clades. The brother clade of Z2125 is Z2122, which again is totally Caucasian-Turkic and Jewish. The only hardcore non-Turkic clade is M780 which peaks among Mongol-faced Nepalese and Indian Rajasthanis with Steppe_MLBA Tatar autosomes. The brother clade of M780 and Z2125 is Y40, a totally Indo-Arab clade. And last but not least Z93* paragroup, a totally hardcore Turko clade as well. Where is your fantasy Iranian? Let me give you the answer: IN YOUR WET INDO-EUROPEAN DREAMS.

The most common Jewish subclade of R-Z93 is within R-CTS6. R-CTS6, last I checked, only has Indo-Iranians and Jews. You have to go to R-F1345 to start seeing Turks and I bet they're of Iranian/Caucasian ancestry anyhow. R-F1345 has Palestinians on it as well.

[Kamal900]

The most common Jewish subclade of R-Z93 is within R-CTS6. R-CTS6, last I checked, only has Indo-Iranians and Jews. You have to go to R-F1345 to start seeing Turks and I bet they're of Iranian/Caucasian ancestry anyhow. R-F1345 has Palestinians on it as well.

*sigh* Don't bother, my Jewish bro. This guy is a complete lunatic for many years in this forum.

[Proto-Shaman]

The most common Jewish subclade of R-Z93 is within R-CTS6. R-CTS6, last I checked, only has Indo-Iranians and Jews. You have to go to R-F1345 to start seeing Turks and I bet they're of Iranian/Caucasian ancestry anyhow. R-F1345 has Palestinians on it as well.
Wrong. R1a R-CTS6 as "Indo-Iranians" does not even exist. Beside R-CTS6 is a subclade of Z2122, a totally scattered subclade without hotspots. And as I said before, the parentral clade M582 is MAINLY TURKIC, including 2 Arabs from Israel, while 3 Balkar Turks and 4 Iranian Turks are leading it. So what you call "Iranian/Caucasian" is actually "Caucasian Turkic proper". It's not a shame, everybody can do mistakes.

2017 study: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-14761-7
https://i.imgur.com/4xUBQKv.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/mJMTEpp.png
https://i.imgur.com/U0tWHwe.png

[Proto-Shaman]

*sigh* Don't bother, my Jewish bro. This guy is a complete lunatic for many years in this forum.
You behave worse than an animal. An animal can at least admit mistakes and learns. You don't. That's why I said that a random human being would certify you the sick report. You are basically mentally ill, you need help. I know you since at least 5 years, and I know you better than my trash bin. Your IQ is a disgrace for this forum. Best proof is your pollutive behavior toward new members like Pine.

I mean it only good for you, I didn't lost the hope with you. You can do it.

[Pine]

Wrong. R1a R-CTS6 as "Indo-Iranians" does not even exist. Beside R-CTS6 is a subclade of Z2122, a totally scattered subclade without hotspots. And as I said before, the parentral clade M582 is MAINLY TURKIC, including 2 Arabs from Israel, while 3 Balkar Turks and 4 Iranian Turks are leading it. So what you call "Iranian/Caucasian" is actually "Caucasian Turkic proper". It's not a shame, everybody can do mistakes.


"hotspots". The Indo-Iranian world is a "hot spot" for it. Persia is. It has various Iranians, Kurds and Armenians on it. The MRCA with any Turkic person is prior to any Turk existing.

[Proto-Shaman]

"hotspots". The Indo-Iranian world is a "hot spot" for it.
This is the latest large-scale genome R1a study from 2015. Your Indo-Iranian hotspots simply do not exist. Except TurkoMongol-faced Nepalese and Tatar-blooded Rajasthanis.
https://i.imgur.com/alEDrGt.jpg


Persia is. It has various Iranians, Kurds and Armenians on it. The MRCA with any Turkic person is prior to any Turk existing.
I don't know in which world you live in, but I am pretty sure you read to much Kurdo-Armenian PKK blogs.

[Kamal900]

You behave worse than an animal. An animal can at least admit mistakes and learns. You don't. That's why I said that a random human being would certify you the sick report. You are basically mentally ill, you need help. I know you since at least 5 years, and I know you better than my trash bin. Your IQ is a disgrace for this forum. Best proof is your pollutive behavior toward new members like Pine.

I mean it only good for you, I didn't lost the hope with you. You can do it.

Triggered much? Self projection at it's finest, rofl.

[Kmakkmak]

This is the latest large-scale genome R1a study from 2015. Your Indo-Iranian hotspots simply do not exist. Except TurkoMongol-faced Nepalese and Tatar-blooded Rajasthanis.
https://i.imgur.com/alEDrGt.jpg


I don't know in which world you live in, but I am pretty sure you read to much Kurdo-Armenian PKK blogs.

R1a-Z93 is the Indo-Iranian. Some Turkic tribes took this haplogroup from Indo-Iranians.

[porpozontokonto]

R1a-Z93 is the Indo-Iranian. Some Turkic tribes took this haplogroup from Indo-Iranians.

No. Indo-Iranians arose from BMAC. R-Z93 directly came from Andronovo culture.

Almost all of Turkic subclades of R-Z93 came from Scythians. No relation to BMAC or Iranics whatsoever.

[Kmakkmak]

If you read genetic researcher's paper you see this Y dna is indo iranian. Only turkic propagandist deny it.

[porpozontokonto]

genetic researcher's paper

xD


Yeni hesabın hayırlı olsun ilk eksin benden olsun. :^)

[Kmakkmak]

Proto-Turkic people is totally east asian people with mostly Haplogroup Q1 and minor C and N. today turkic people have different paternal origin such as kyrgyz have R1a-Z93 Turkmens Have Q1 some Kazakh Tribes have C haplogroup (mongol affiliated) turks in turkey azerbaijan and Iran have more J2a Turks in siberia have proto turkic major y dna Q1 and Minor N and C with r1a(indo iranian and other indo european origin).

[Kmakkmak]

xD


Yeni hesabın hayırlı olsun ilk eksin benden olsun. :^)

eksi atmayla ne olacak ki. Kendi kendini kandırıyor bu başlığı açan türkçü arkadaş. Zaten milliyetcide doğruyu öğrenmek gibi bir amaç beklememek gerek. Bilginin doğru olup olmadığı değil işine gelip gelmediğine bakanlardandır milliyetçi. Bunu sadece türkçüler için söylemiyorum tümü için söylüyorum.

[Kmakkmak]

some turkic dynasties (which was known Y dna) have r1a-z93 such as ottoman dynasty and ashina dynasty. but turkic people heavily mixed with indo iranian tribe in central asia and steppes.

[porpozontokonto]

eksi atmayla ne olacak ki. Kendi kendini kandırıyor bu başlığı açan türkçü arkadaş. Zaten milliyetcide doğruyu öğrenmek gibi bir amaç beklememek gerek. Bilginin doğru olup olmadığı değil işine gelip gelmediğine bakanlardandır milliyetçi. Bunu sadece türkçüler için söylemiyorum tümü için söylüyorum.

İskitler irani filan değildi. Söylediğin şeyi aynı şekilde kendin uyguluyorsun. Sırf milliyetçilere muhalefet olucam diye bilgiyi ayıklayıp kendine göre olan kısımları yazıyorsun.

Türkçü propagandası diyorsun da sen yılların IE propagandacılarını tanımamışsın. Tümü için söylüyorsan ilk önce İndo-Aryan saçmalıklarını tekrar etmeyi bırakacaksın zira bunlar IE sıçmıklarının uydurup yıllardan beri bilim camiasına sanki gerçekmiş gibi empoze ettikleri şeylerdir. Eksiyi atmamın sebebi de IE propagandacılarının sözünü gerçekmiş gibi kabul etmen.

Y-DNA hakkında dediklerinin çoğu yalnış. Q-M242 Proto-Türk grubu değildir, kökeni Paleo-Sibirya topluluklarıdır. Proto-Türklerin orijinal grubu büyük ihtimalle N-M231'dir.
Ayrıca Y-DNA bütün topluluklarda ortaya karışıktır. Sırf kurucu nüfusun soyunu taşımıyor diye ona buna "sen x değilsin" diyemezsin. Mesela İsveçlilerin yarısı I-M170'e mensuptur şimdi bu adamlar konuştukları IE dilinden vazgeçip kro magnon RP'si mi yapsınlar?

R-Z93'ün Türki branşlarının hemen hemen hepsi Saka-İskitlerden gelmedir. İndo-Aryan Z93'ü ile alakası yok.

[Kmakkmak]

İskitler irani filan değildi. Söylediğin şeyi aynı şekilde kendin uyguluyorsun. Sırf milliyetçilere muhalefet olucam diye bilgiyi ayıklayıp kendine göre olan kısımları yazıyorsun.

Türkçü propagandası diyorsun da sen yılların IE propagandacılarını tanımamışsın. Tümü için söylüyorsan ilk önce İndo-Aryan saçmalıklarını tekrar etmeyi bırakacaksın zira bunlar IE sıçmıklarının uydurup yıllardan beri bilim camiasına sanki gerçekmiş gibi empoze ettikleri şeylerdir. Eksiyi atmamın sebebi de IE propagandacılarının sözünü gerçekmiş gibi kabul etmen.

Y-DNA hakkında dediklerinin çoğu yalnış. Q-M242 Proto-Türk grubu değildir, kökeni Paleo-Sibirya topluluklarıdır. Proto-Türklerin orijinal grubu büyük ihtimalle N-M231'dir.
Ayrıca Y-DNA bütün topluluklarda ortaya karışıktır. Sırf kurucu nüfusun soyunu taşımıyor diye ona buna "sen x değilsin" diyemezsin. Mesela İsveçlilerin yarısı I-M170'e mensuptur şimdi bu adamlar konuştukları IE dilinden vazgeçip kro magnon RP'si mi yapsınlar?

R-Z93'ün Türki branşlarının hemen hemen hepsi Saka-İskitlerden gelmedir. İndo-Aryan Z93'ü ile alakası yok.

r1a-z93 r1a-m417 nin alt kolu ki bilimsel olarak bu kol hint avrupa orjinlidir. türklerin veya diğerlerinin ne dediği önemli değil. evet isveçlilerin yarısı hint avrupalı değil ve hint avrupa öncesi mezolitik avrupa orjinlidir. mesela rurik N1c1 y dna taşıyor ki kendisi slav ya da viking değil finnik orjinlidir örneğin hohenholzern hanedanı I2 orjinlidir yani cermenleşmiş yerel halktandır.

[Kmakkmak]

İskitler irani filan değildi. Söylediğin şeyi aynı şekilde kendin uyguluyorsun. Sırf milliyetçilere muhalefet olucam diye bilgiyi ayıklayıp kendine göre olan kısımları yazıyorsun.

Türkçü propagandası diyorsun da sen yılların IE propagandacılarını tanımamışsın. Tümü için söylüyorsan ilk önce İndo-Aryan saçmalıklarını tekrar etmeyi bırakacaksın zira bunlar IE sıçmıklarının uydurup yıllardan beri bilim camiasına sanki gerçekmiş gibi empoze ettikleri şeylerdir. Eksiyi atmamın sebebi de IE propagandacılarının sözünü gerçekmiş gibi kabul etmen.

Y-DNA hakkında dediklerinin çoğu yalnış. Q-M242 Proto-Türk grubu değildir, kökeni Paleo-Sibirya topluluklarıdır. Proto-Türklerin orijinal grubu büyük ihtimalle N-M231'dir.
Ayrıca Y-DNA bütün topluluklarda ortaya karışıktır. Sırf kurucu nüfusun soyunu taşımıyor diye ona buna "sen x değilsin" diyemezsin. Mesela İsveçlilerin yarısı I-M170'e mensuptur şimdi bu adamlar konuştukları IE dilinden vazgeçip kro magnon RP'si mi yapsınlar?

R-Z93'ün Türki branşlarının hemen hemen hepsi Saka-İskitlerden gelmedir. İndo-Aryan Z93'ü ile alakası yok.

Sakalara iskitlere bir tek türkler türk diyor ki o da ayrı bir mevzu. Zaten ben daha türklerin türk olarak ilan etmedikleri pek bir kavim duymadım.

[Kmakkmak]

İskitler irani filan değildi. Söylediğin şeyi aynı şekilde kendin uyguluyorsun. Sırf milliyetçilere muhalefet olucam diye bilgiyi ayıklayıp kendine göre olan kısımları yazıyorsun.

Türkçü propagandası diyorsun da sen yılların IE propagandacılarını tanımamışsın. Tümü için söylüyorsan ilk önce İndo-Aryan saçmalıklarını tekrar etmeyi bırakacaksın zira bunlar IE sıçmıklarının uydurup yıllardan beri bilim camiasına sanki gerçekmiş gibi empoze ettikleri şeylerdir. Eksiyi atmamın sebebi de IE propagandacılarının sözünü gerçekmiş gibi kabul etmen.

Y-DNA hakkında dediklerinin çoğu yalnış. Q-M242 Proto-Türk grubu değildir, kökeni Paleo-Sibirya topluluklarıdır. Proto-Türklerin orijinal grubu büyük ihtimalle N-M231'dir.
Ayrıca Y-DNA bütün topluluklarda ortaya karışıktır. Sırf kurucu nüfusun soyunu taşımıyor diye ona buna "sen x değilsin" diyemezsin. Mesela İsveçlilerin yarısı I-M170'e mensuptur şimdi bu adamlar konuştukları IE dilinden vazgeçip kro magnon RP'si mi yapsınlar?

R-Z93'ün Türki branşlarının hemen hemen hepsi Saka-İskitlerden gelmedir. İndo-Aryan Z93'ü ile alakası yok.

herkes türklere kinli herkes oyun oynuyor zaten :D ... yav komplo teorilerine bu kadar düşkün bir başka millet var mı bilmiyorum

[PAGANE]

How did it end up in Spain? Not sure about R-Z93 being completely unrelated to Slavic and Germanic tribes.
possible with the Alans. they are known to form the Kingdom of the Vandals and Alans, and some of the Alps of the Respondent remain on the Iberian Peninsula and settle mainly in Lusitania and the Cartagena region.

[Kmakkmak]

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Turkic

[porpozontokonto]

herkes türklere kinli herkes oyun oynuyor zaten :D ... yav komplo teorilerine bu kadar düşkün bir başka millet var mı bilmiyorum

hee komplo teorisi aynen. gerçekler zoruna gittiğinde hemen komploğğ teğörisi ehehehe

herkes türklere kinli tabi ben görcem seni forumda tiradları karıştıradur sen biraz. saf dünya vatandaşı seni.

moruk çetboxa gel ordan konuşalım

[vbnetkhio]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/World_Map_of_Y-DNA_Haplogroups.png

Z93>Z94 is proto-Indo-Iranian

[Kmakkmak]

hee komplo teorisi aynen. gerçekler zoruna gittiğinde hemen komploğğ teğörisi ehehehe

herkes türklere kinli tabi ben görcem seni forumda tiradları karıştıradur sen biraz. saf dünya vatandaşı seni.

moruk çetboxa gel ordan konuşalım

yav benim niye zoruma gitsin. bilimin türkleri ya da bir başkasını filan taktığı yok. ne ise gerçek odur. bu haplogroup için bilim hint avrupalı diyor gerçek de bu. işine gelmeyince ağlayıp zırlamak palavra uydurup sonra uydurduğuna inanmayı kimin alışkanlık haline getirdiği belli.
yav şu başlığı aylardır takip ediyorum nerede mantıksız bir yazı görsem türk çıkıyor ardından.. tesadüf diyemem buna.

[Kmakkmak]

Z93>Z94 is proto-Indo-Iranian

Yes I think you are correct.

[Kmakkmak]

hee komplo teorisi aynen. gerçekler zoruna gittiğinde hemen komploğğ teğörisi ehehehe

herkes türklere kinli tabi ben görcem seni forumda tiradları karıştıradur sen biraz. saf dünya vatandaşı seni.

moruk çetboxa gel ordan konuşalım

çetboxa nasıl gelinir?

[porpozontokonto]

yav benim niye zoruma gitsin. bilimin türkleri ya da bir başkasını filan taktığı yok. ne ise gerçek odur. bu haplogroup için bilim hint avrupalı diyor gerçek de bu. işine gelmeyince ağlayıp zırlamak palavra uydurup sonra uydurduğuna inanmayı kimin alışkanlık haline getirdiği belli.
yav şu başlığı aylardır takip ediyorum nerede mantıksız bir yazı görsem türk çıkıyor ardından.. tesadüf diyemem buna.

Bak kardeşim tiradın başlığına Z93 İndo-İrani mi yoksa Turanian mı diyor. IE olduğuna şüphe yok kimse de aksini iddia etmedi. Burada milletin dediği şey Z93'ün bütün branşlarının İndo-İrani olmadığı. Bu kadar basit neyini anlamıyorsun?

O quote'ladığın kullanıcı yılların trolü ciddiye alman senin kabahatin

Bilimin Eupedia'daki GAYropean supremacistleri taktığı da yok. Bilim derken çingeno-aryanların uyduruk propagandasından bahsetmiyorum bu arada. Son kez söylüyorum Z93 Andronovo kültüründen gelmedir o da çingeno-aryan filan değildir eupedia denilen sikik siteden de link yollama.

[porpozontokonto]

çetboxa nasıl gelinir?

Anasayfada mevcut.

Burada fazla Türkçe konuşursak modlar banı koyar ondan orda konuşalım dedim.

[Kmakkmak]

Bak kardeşim tiradın başlığına Z93 İndo-İrani mi yoksa Turanian mı diyor. IE olduğuna şüphe yok kimse de aksini iddia etmedi. Burada milletin dediği şey Z93'ün bütün branşlarının İndo-İrani olmadığı. Bu kadar basit neyini anlamıyorsun?

O quote'ladığın kullanıcı yılların trolü ciddiye alman senin kabahatin

Bilimin Eupedia'daki GAYropean supremacistleri taktığı da yok. Bilim derken çingeno-aryanların uyduruk propagandasından bahsetmiyorum bu arada. Son kez söylüyorum Z93 Andronovo kültüründen gelmedir o da çingeno-aryan filan değildir eupedia denilen sikik siteden de link yollama.

Z93 lerin tüm branşları R1a-M417 nin alt koludur. andronovo türk değil hint avrupalıdır. saçma sapan masallarla anca kendini kandırırsın. yav herkes komplo kurmuş size göre. yav basın gidin başlık ülkü ocağına dönmüş amk.

[vbnetkhio]

No. Indo-Iranians arose from BMAC. R-Z93 directly came from Andronovo culture.

Almost all of Turkic subclades of R-Z93 came from Scythians. No relation to BMAC or Iranics whatsoever.

and who do you think the Scythians were? :icon_lol:

[Kmakkmak]

and who do you think the Scythians were? :icon_lol:

Turkic historical view say that all of steppe people is turkic :D :D :D

[porpozontokonto]

Z93 lerin tüm branşları R1a-M417 nin alt koludur. andronovo türk değil hint avrupalıdır. saçma sapan masallarla anca kendini kandırırsın. yav herkes komplo kurmuş size göre. yav basın gidin başlık ülkü ocağına dönmüş amk.

E ben Hint-Avrupalı değil mi dedim?

Daha İndo-Aryan Hint-Avrupalı ayrımı yapamıyorsun amk.

[porpozontokonto]

and who do you think the Scythians were? :icon_lol:

Do you think that Scythians arose from BMAC like Indo-Aryans?

It is retarded to think that they spoke an Iranian language. They spoke a language isolate of their own.

[Kmakkmak]

3
E ben Hint-Avrupalı değil mi dedim?

Daha İndo-Aryan Hint-Avrupalı ayrımı yapamıyorsun amk.

yanlış anladım o zaman. ben şunun olabileceğini düşünüyorum bazı hint avrupa R1a-Z93 branşları irani kökenli değildir erken dönemlerde bu branşlar proto türklere hint avrupalı fakat irani olmayan bazı kavimlerden gelmiş olması çok çok muhtemeldir. bunu kabul etmek gerekir

[Leto]

Original R1a-Z93 look :icon_biggrin:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7b9638e95d11489b96369351c24e1bfc.webp

[Kmakkmak]

Do you think that Scythians arose from BMAC like Indo-Aryans?

It is retarded to think that they spoke an Iranian language. They spoke a language isolate of their own.

BMAC was iranized. They was not original iranians. Y dna examples of BMAC is say that.

Narasimhan et al. 2018 analyzed BMAC skeletons from the Bronze Age sites of Bustan, Dzharkutan, Gonur Tepe, and Sapalli Tepe. The male specimens belonged to haplogroup E1b1a (1/18), E1b1b (1/18), G (2/18), J* (2/18), J1 (1/18), J2 (4/18), L (2/18), R* (1/18), R1b (1/18), R2 (2/18), and T (1/18).[27]

[Kmakkmak]

Original R1a-Z93 look :icon_biggrin:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7b9638e95d11489b96369351c24e1bfc.webp

no we don't say it. only %2 of totally dna of people.

[Leto]

no we don't say it. only %2 of totally dna of people.
I say it. They were members of the white race unlike most modern carriers :coffee:

[Kmakkmak]

Original R1a-Z93 look :icon_biggrin:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7b9638e95d11489b96369351c24e1bfc.webp

this is european racist view :D

[Leto]

this is european racist view :D
Why is it racist to say the IEs were essentially white when they indeed were? We have multiple samples to prove that.

[Kmakkmak]

I say it. They were members of the white race unlike most modern carriers :coffee:

''They were members of the white race unlike most modern carriers'' white race is not scientific. but racist term. white people or black or brown people doesnt exist.

[Leto]

''They were members of the white race unlike most modern carriers'' white race is not scientific. but racist term. white people or black or brown people doesnt exist.
Come on, everyone fucking knows what that means. It starts to exist only when white people are the ones to blame.

[Kmakkmak]

Why is it racist to say the IEs were essentially white when they indeed were? We have multiple samples to prove that.

original IE have blue eyes. there is no proof for it.

[Kmakkmak]

Come on, everyone fucking knows what that means. It starts to exist only when white people are the ones to blame.

original europeans I2 and I1 is light skin and blue eyes indo european is from asian steppes.(r1a-m417, r1b-m269).

[Proto-Shaman]

Triggered?
Only by the level of your ignorance, which has rendered me speechless.


Self projection at it's finest, rofl.
The argument of "Self projection" is a sign of Dunning-Kruger effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect). There is still a chance to heal it. Ask me..

[Proto-Shaman]

R1a-Z93 is the Indo-Iranian. Some Turkic tribes took this haplogroup from Indo-Iranians.
R1a-93 is the Tibetan. Some Turkic tribes took this haplogroup from Tibetans. Meme effect is selfevident. lol
https://i.imgur.com/Qx5kD7g.jpg

[Proto-Shaman]

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Turkic

https://turkipedia.fandom.com/wiki/Andronovo_culture#R1a_in_Pashtuns

[Kmakkmak]

R1a-93 is the Tibetan. Some Turkic tribes took this haplogroup from Tibetans. Meme effect is selfevident. lol
https://i.imgur.com/Qx5kD7g.jpg

turkic people live this area(central asia) today. but before turkic people coming this area is inhabited non-turkic people(such as indo iranian or tocharians). this r1a is genetic remnant this people.

[Kmakkmak]

https://turkipedia.fandom.com/wiki/Andronovo_culture#R1a_in_Pashtuns

totally wrong information.

[Proto-Shaman]

Z93>Z94 is proto-Indo-Iranian
Z93>Z94 is Kipchak-Turkic.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/c/ca/20190328055459%21World_Map_of_Y-DNA_Haplogroups.png

[Kmakkmak]

Z93>Z94 is Kipchak-Turkic.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/c/ca/20190328055459%21World_Map_of_Y-DNA_Haplogroups.png

in your dreams :D :D :D

[Kyp]

Original R1a-Z93 look :icon_biggrin:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7b9638e95d11489b96369351c24e1bfc.webp

Well chosen picture
I tend to agree

[Kmakkmak]

Well chosen picture
I tend to agree

but is no realistic for original r1a1a1

[Proto-Shaman]

Original R1a-Z93 look :icon_biggrin:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7b9638e95d11489b96369351c24e1bfc.webp
Text book Kazan Tatar look. :D

[Proto-Shaman]

Why is it racist to say the IEs were essentially white when they indeed were? We have multiple samples to prove that.
yOUR ancestors got raped by ancient Turks. YOu result.

[Proto-Shaman]

turkic people live this area(central asia) today. but before turkic people coming this area is inhabited non-turkic people(such as indo iranian or tocharians). this r1a is genetic remnant this people.
nice fairly tale. They came back from the past to the future with hijacked R1a.
https://i.imgur.com/56KhwFn.jpg

[Leto]

Text book Kazan Tatar look. :D

Yeah and the Kazan Tatars are only 20% Mongoloid.

[Kmakkmak]

nice fairly tale. They came back from the past to the future with hijacked R1a.
https://i.imgur.com/56KhwFn.jpg

you are trollllllll.

[Proto-Shaman]

totally wrong information.
Because you suffer from brain cancer :laugh:

[Leto]

Well chosen picture
I tend to agree
He could be a Russian man actually, I've seen similar types.

[Proto-Shaman]

you are trollllllll.
Self reflection of your own behavior.

[Kmakkmak]

Because you suffer from brain cancer :laugh:

this page is full wrong and propaganda.

[Kmakkmak]

Self reflection of your own behavior.

no I am not. your post is fully wrong and propaganda. CCCCCCCC

[Proto-Shaman]

this page is full wrong and propaganda.
No, but your brain cells are suffering from cancer. That's it.

[Kmakkmak]

No, but your brain cells are suffering from cancer. That's it.

atılacam forumdan şimdi la bu ne saçmalık.

[Proto-Shaman]

no I am not. your post is fully wrong and propaganda. CCCCCCCC

Now you behave like an exponential function e^x

[Leto]

...
I think this man looks Eastern Iranic, the native population of Central Asia before the Turco-Mongols devasted the region
https://i.ibb.co/DfR0bwW/528383314.jpg
But perhaps the mong had been present in the region even before them.

[Proto-Shaman]

I think this man looks Eastern Iranic, the native population of Central Asia before the Turco-Mongols devasted the region
https://i.ibb.co/DfR0bwW/528383314.jpg
But perhaps the mong had been present in the region even before them.
No he looks more like BMAC or Iran Calcolithic, NOOb. Native pupulation before Mongols was West_Siberian_Hunter_Gatherers (most likely Y-dna Q).

It's 2020 now and you still didn't know it. Shame on you.

[Proto-Shaman]

A nice unmixed Oghuz example for Central Asia before Mongolization.
https://i.imgur.com/a3Vs7TX.jpg

After BMAC'ization (Iranization):
https://i.imgur.com/7i5Pygf.jpg

[Arhat]

Do you think that Scythians arose from BMAC like Indo-Aryans?

It is retarded to think that they spoke an Iranian language. They spoke a language isolate of their own.

Yeah this is why Khotan Saka texts where written in an Iranic language, Sarmatians/Scythians had Iranic names and South Russia is full of Iranic hydronyms. Turks arrived quite late in the region and saying Scythians were Turks is as much as funny as saying Aztecs spoke Spanish because their modern descendants speak it.

[Chelubey]

Yeah this is why Khotan Saka texts where written in an Iranic language, Sarmatians/Scythians had Iranic names and South Russia is full of Iranic hydronyms. Turks arrived quite late in the region and saying Scythians were Turks is as much as funny as saying Aztecs spoke Spanish because their modern descendants speak it.

There is no reason to classify one of the Iranian dialects that existed in the Khotan in the first millennium as Saka dialect. It is just biased.

[Chelubey]

What we have ?
We have a huge theoretical blah blah blah about the assimilation of hypothetical Iranians by Turkic tribes and documented assimilation of Turkic tribes by Iranians in Afghanistan in the Middle Ages. These tribes are known among Afghans and have Turkic names. The closest relatives of these tribes among the Turkic peoples are also known (they now live in Turkmenistan and Iran). We just need to compare their subclades. We will possibly find out the truth in the coming years.

Turkic substrate in the Afghans.
Pushtun "baz" - head of tribe, from Turkic "bas / bash" - head.
Pushtun "jirga" - assembly - from turkic "jargy" - assembly ,forum, trial - from turkic verb "jar" - to judge .

[Proto-Shaman]

South Russia is full of Iranic hydronyms.
Deniz is not Iranian, you liar, it's TURKIC!

[Illyrius]

A nice unmixed Oghuz example for Central Asia before Mongolization.
https://i.imgur.com/a3Vs7TX.jpg

After BMAC'ization (Iranization):
https://i.imgur.com/7i5Pygf.jpg

Lol that old man looks like an old farmer who lives in the nearby village of my city.

[Kmakkmak]

You should be banned for your trollish behaviour but this place is an asylum for trolls...

I approve you.

[TribalSky]

Your subclade (Z2122>Y57...) belongs to a mainly Turkic cluster. Here are some portraits of your Turkic relatives: https://www.academia.edu/17661672/BEHPS_3._189-264_Volume_2_3_1_April_2015_

Yes, Thank you.

I also can see that samples of my clade (Y52) were also found in Sarmatian burials in the Caucasus/Steppes and according to the Karachay-Balkar DNA project (descendants of Kipchaks), a number of people also have this calde of Y52.

Given the rarity of my clade in England, I have no doubt that my paternal direct ancestor was one of the Sarmatians who came to England or perhaps a frank with an Alanic YDNA (Alans also went to france when some went to spain with the visigoths) who came over during the conquest of 1066.

[Leto]

Yes, Thank you.

I also can see that samples of my clade (Y52) were also found in Sarmatian burials in the Caucasus/Steppes and according to the Karachay-Balkar DNA project (descendants of Kipchaks), a number of people also have this calde of Y52.

Given the rarity of my clade in England, I have no doubt that my paternal direct ancestor was one of the Sarmatians who came to England or perhaps a frank with an Alanic YDNA (Alans also went to france when some went to spain with the visigoths) who came over during the conquest of 1066.
Your Y haplogroup isn't Turkic but Aryan, therefore Indo-European. Don't listen to that lunatic, he should not be taken seriously.

[Rocinante]

In my understanding it is:

ANE ---> EHG ---> WSH ---> Iranian ---> Scythian

[Annihilus]

Isn't Z93 way older than both iranic and turkic?

[Sora]

Isn't Z93 way older than both iranic and turkic?

Yes, it's an ancient Indo-European Steppe haplogroup. So why this fight of "Turkic vs. Iranic"?

According to studies, modern(also early) Turkics are mixture of Steppe Indo-Europeans & Mongoloid Siberians and modern Iranics(especially the Eastern) are mixture of Sintasha & Iran_N.

[henry007]

Yeah. As people say, R1a_Z93 isnt iranic or turkic either. Older than both. Turkics just happen to either get it from iranics or directly from the steppe folks, while iranics got it directly from the steppe folks as well

[Sora]

Yeah. As people say, R1a_Z93 isnt iranic or turkic either. Older than both. Turkics just happen to either get it from iranics or directly from the steppe folks, while iranics got it directly from the steppe folks as well

Turkics got it directly from Steppe folks too. Because Kyrgyz people(who have nothing to do with Iranics and are 66% Mongoloid) have 63% R1a-Z93, Altai people(a Turkic people in Southern Siberia who are 70% Mongoloid and they have nothing to do with Iranics) have 46% R1a-Z93 too.

[henry007]

Turkics got it directly from Steppe folks too. Because Kyrgyz people(who have nothing to do with Iranics and are 66% Mongoloid) have 63% R1a-Z93, Altai people(a Turkic people in Southern Siberia who are 70% Mongoloid and they have nothing to do with Iranics) have 46% R1a-Z93 too.

Thats why i said they either got it from iranics or DIRECTLY from steppe folks too

[Hashoeva]

R1a is original a turkic / mongol asiatic haplogroup, just like haplogroup Q, its brother haplogroup.

[Leto]

Turkics got it directly from Steppe folks too. Because Kyrgyz people(who have nothing to do with Iranics and are 66% Mongoloid) have 63% R1a-Z93, Altai people(a Turkic people in Southern Siberia who are 70% Mongoloid and they have nothing to do with Iranics) have 46% R1a-Z93 too.
The Kyrgyz ethnicity was founded by a white elite. That's what some medieval Chinese sources claimed. I think their R1a is ultimately from the Andronovo.

[samario]

Yes, Thank you.

I also can see that samples of my clade (Y52) were also found in Sarmatian burials in the Caucasus/Steppes and according to the Karachay-Balkar DNA project (descendants of Kipchaks), a number of people also have this calde of Y52.

Given the rarity of my clade in England, I have no doubt that my paternal direct ancestor was one of the Sarmatians who came to England or perhaps a frank with an Alanic YDNA (Alans also went to france when some went to spain with the visigoths) who came over during the conquest of 1066.

R-Z93 isn't Turkic. Your clade might suggest that but YDNA itself is Indo-European as some people have noted. Have you got other male relatives? Looks like R-Z93 is going to spread all over England. xD

[TribalSky]

R-Z93 isn't Turkic. Your clade might suggest that but YDNA itself is Indo-European as some people have noted. Have you got other male relatives? Looks like R-Z93 is going to spread all over England. xD

I didn't say it was.

All of my quote is accurate, with accurate information.

My clade of Y57 and Y52 is very uncommon in the West.
All what we know of it and brother clades is that its mainly Scytho-Sarmatian.

Z93 and z94 have other clades but itself is still not common in West Europe.

[TribalSky]

R-Z93 isn't Turkic. Your clade might suggest that but YDNA itself is Indo-European as some people have noted. Have you got other male relatives? Looks like R-Z93 is going to spread all over England. xD

All haplogroups spread all over the world, so that doesn't mean anything.
Its best to look at what populations and cultures had which clades mainly.

Funny you should mention male relatives.
Over the past 200 years my male line has been quite small actually. I have traced my paternal line back with records.
I have no brothers, my father has no brothers and my grandfather had no brothers and his father only had 2 brothers. My great great grandfather only had 1 or 2 brothers and his father only had one half brother. His father didn't have any brothers and his father before him didnt have any brothers.
So yeah, my paternal spread isn't as wide as some over the years :D

[Proto-Shaman]

Your Y haplogroup isn't Turkic but Aryan, therefore Indo-European. Don't listen to that lunatic, he should not be taken seriously.
Don't pollute his mind with your ill-characteristic behavior of trying to de-turkify a purely Turkic haplotype you dirty mongrel Indo-European zombie thief.

[Proto-Shaman]

Andronovo.
= VOLGA TURKIC

already proven by autosomal data. If you have psychological problems with this, immediately conduct a doctor.

[Token]

= VOLGA TURKIC

already proven by autosomal data. If you have psychological problems with this, immediately conduct a doctor.

Turkic wasn't even a thing before ca. 100BC

[Token]

double post

[Leto]

Don't pollute his mind with your ill-characteristic behavior of trying to de-turkify a purely Turkic haplotype you dirty mongrel Indo-European zombie thief.
Get the fuck out of my face, you've been away for months and nobody was missing you. It was fucking you or people like you who confused that guy falsely leading him to believe that his Y DNA R1a-Z93 was somehow in conflict with his White identity while in fact it's quite the opposite (the lineage is of Aryan provenance and those guys looked neither like Mao Zedong nor like Mahatma Ghandi).

[Harkonnen]

Get the fuck out of my face, you've been away for months and nobody was missing you. It was fucking you or people like you who confused that guy falsely leading him to believe that his Y DNA R1a-Z93 was somehow in conflict with his White identity while in fact it's quite the opposite (the lineage is of Aryan provenance and those guys looked neither like Mao Zedong nor like Mahatma Ghandi).

Haplogroup R was originally mongoloid tho, IEs only got the jew looks because they fucked farmers and whatnots.

[Proto-Shaman]

Turkic wasn't even a thing before ca. 100BC
True, for being the ancestors of IE's, Turks seem to be fallen from the sky out of nothing.

[Proto-Shaman]

Get the fuck out of my face, you've been away for months and nobody was missing you. It was fucking you or people like you who confused that guy falsely leading him to believe that his Y DNA R1a-Z93 was somehow in conflict with his White identity while in fact it's quite the opposite (the lineage is of Aryan provenance and those guys looked neither like Mao Zedong nor like Mahatma Ghandi).
Scythians were Turkic, and NOW FUCK OFF you mental disorder victim.

[Proto-Shaman]

Haplogroup R was originally mongoloid tho, IEs only got the jew looks because they fucked farmers and whatnots.
Uralics are our Altaic cousins though. Very ancient. IE's are just a product of both us, who have undergone Caucasian substrate.

[Token]

True, for being the ancestors of IE's, Turks seem to be fallen from the sky out of nothing.

The other way round actually, genetics has proven early Turks were born out of an amalgam of Indo-Iranian steppe nomads and some kind of Siberian people

[Proto-Shaman]

The other way round actually, genetics has proven early Turks were born out of an amalgam of Indo-Iranian steppe nomads and some kind of Siberian people
Can you show me these Indo-Iranian steppe nomads on this Bronze age steppe map please. Feel free to use a zoom glass if you want. I give you all the time you need.
https://i.imgur.com/2KJ2mTx.jpg

Btw. Indo.European languages are flexive-fusional languages, no chance that Turkic agglutinative languages stem from them, learn basic linguistics. So, if you say "the other way round actually", think twice before you go deep into topic xD

[Zoro]

True, for being the ancestors of IE's, Turks seem to be fallen from the sky out of nothing.

They didn’t fall out of the sky but they did roll out of Mongolia around 2000 years ago.

Was 4500 year old R-Z93 Kazakhstan Sintashta also Turkic?

If not, then that makes R-Z93 Indo-European.

When Turkics rolled out of Mongolia 2000 years ago and started spreading across C Asia they recruited/assimilated Iranic R-Z93 Scythians. After all Scythians males and females where very skilled horse rider warriors and archers. Since Scythians were minority by that time they did what minorities usually do. They language shifted to Turkic just like some other C Asians language shifted to Turkic.

This is how Indo European R-Z93 became incorporated into Turkics and this is how some Iranic Scythian decendants started speaking Turkic. Pretty simple.

[PaleoEuropean]

Neither they are Indo-Aryan. Turans are purer Central Asians, Indo-Aryans are a mixed people.

[Proto-Shaman]

They didn’t fall out of the sky but they did roll out of Mongolia around 2000 years ago.
When Turkics rolled out of Mongolia 2000 years ago and started spreading across C Asia they recruited/assimilated Iranic R-Z93 Scythians. ..... They language shifted to Turkic just like some other C Asians language shifted to Turkic.

This is how Indo European R-Z93 became incorporated into Turkics and this is how some Iranic Scythian decendants started speaking Turkic. Pretty simple.
Cool story, bro. Do you really believe what you say? I mean, it's actually the other way around. Just saying.

[Zoro]

Cool story, bro. Do you really believe what you say? I mean, it's actually the other way around. Just saying.

Yeah bro language shift happens all the time by minorities. Even look at the Iranic Kurds in Turkey. Already many of them speak Turkish only and especially if they want to get high positions in government. This kind of stuff is pretty common

[Peterski]

Finno-Ugric according to Carlos.

[Proto-Shaman]

Yeah bro language shift happens all the time by minorities. Even look at the Iranic Kurds in Turkey. Already many of them speak Turkish only and especially if they want to get high positions in government. This kind of stuff is pretty common
And what about R1a strong Ghilzay Turks? who are evidently assimilated into Pashtun society? R1a Z93 is clearly Turkic. No chance.

[samario]

Why is this guy spreading lies about my haplogroup. Make it stop and ban him for good. Ha.

[Proto-Shaman]

Why is this guy spreading lies about my haplogroup. Make it stop and ban him for good. Ha.
You are a 1 year old piece of fresh flesh for me. You are number 9.100.938 or so.

[Blondie]

Why is this guy spreading lies about my haplogroup. Make it stop and ban him for good. Ha.

This guy is a mentally retarded, the most famous history thief of all time here, he claim and steal everything once he said all r1b and r1a are turkic so all europeans are turkic, he use many profile at same time (gültekin is also him), i saw 2-3 turkish profile with almost same description. To be honest i don't know why mods let him to be here.

[Illyrius]

This guy is a mentally retarded, the most famous history thief of all time here, he claim and steal everything once he said all r1b and r1a are turkic so all europeans are turkic, he use many profile at same time (gültekin is also him), i saw 2-3 turkish profile with almost same description. To be honest i don't know why mods let him to be here.

Proto Shaman is one sick and jealous freak. He wants to be Indo European like us but can't. Then goes on to great lengths making stupid claims that all r1a and r1b descent from Turkics

Lols have you seen the YouTube channel spirit of the steppe
He's full of delusions lies and crap
Wait i think that YouTube channel is controlled by proto Shaman or any of his underlings.

[Proto-Shaman]

wet dreams ♥♥♥♥
https://i.imgur.com/rhmePkl.jpg

[Proto-Shaman]

Proto Shaman is one sick and jealous freak. He wants to be Indo European like us but can't. Then goes on to great lengths making stupid claims that all r1a and r1b descent from Turkics

Lols have you seen the YouTube channel spirit of the steppe
He's full of delusions lies and crap
Wait i think that YouTube channel is controlled by proto Shaman or any of his underlings.
Cool story bro :bored: Are you denying from inferiority complexes? :picard2:

[samario]

Proto shaman is so obsessed with us R-Z93ers.

[Chelubey]

IE R1b,R1a are assimilated turkic/paraturkic people. IEs want to be native R1.

[Chelubey]

Sibiran turkic people and mongols :See the difference:
http://s016.radikal.ru/i335/1106/5e/dabc385a30a4.jpg

[Kaspias]

Sibiran turkic people and mongols :See the difference:
http://s016.radikal.ru/i335/1106/5e/dabc385a30a4.jpg

Chelkans more than half Q? All are L330 I suppose?

[DedPerded]

Considering that the Turks are just a military-political alliance formed from the Samoyed Ugric, Turanians and other steppe dwellers, then the haplogroup should be characteristic of them: sub-branches N *, Q *, C *, O * and other Altaic y-dna.

[Illyrius]

IE R1b,R1a are assimilated turkic/paraturkic people. IEs want to be native R1.

Am I a Turk to you?

[Chelubey]

Chelkans more than half Q? All are L330 I suppose?

I dont know. But pay attention to some details : Mongols have few haplogroups N and Q. Siberian Turkic people and Mongols have few common Y-haplogroups, except for C.
Kyrgyz are C-rich and R1a- rich nation. However, the tribal structure of Kirghiz is very similar to the Mongolian one(Kirghizes are divided into two groups - right and left "wings"). At the same time, the "right wing" was formed by moghuls (Mongols) assimilated in the Middle Ages. Kirghiz subclades of hg C are from Moghuls.

[Chelubey]

Am I a Turk to you?
Your ancestor was paraturkic

[Illyrius]

Your ancestor was paraturkic

If you mean Indo European or gallo-roman then yes.

[Chelubey]

If you mean Indo European or gallo-roman then yes.
You have to face the facts

[Leto]

Your ancestor was paraturkic
Hey tatarin, can you please stop spreading this nonsense. It's no longer funny!

[Chelubey]

Hey tatarin, can you please stop spreading this nonsense. It's no longer funny!

Why are you so sensitive to a viewpoint?

[Leto]

Why are you so sensitive to a viewpoint?
Because I'm already getting sick of this Turkic pseudoscience. There is no evidence for that bullshit. You can argue some clades of R1a may be historically Turkic but saying the entire fucking haplogroup is Turkic is ludicrous.

[Proto-Shaman]

Because I'm already getting sick of this Turkic pseudoscience. There is no evidence for that bullshit. You can argue some clades of R1a may be historically Turkic but saying the entire fucking haplogroup is Turkic is ludicrous.
Face it, you are a TURK :D