I2 M438 in Serbia 6000 B.C.

[Bosniensis]

Demetrios Chalkondyles: Thracians and Illyrians are the oldest people in Europe.

Herodotus: Thracians pre-date Greeks and Romans.

Modern Scientists: I2 haplogroup is the oldest haplogroup in Europe.

8000 years ago, only certain parts of Europe were habitable. Southern Europe was the only habitable part where I2 haplogroup and all it's clades
evolved when J (Roman Haplogroup) was far away from Europe. Some believe that E1b haplogroup came as second, and those people are related to Greeks (Albanians included)

Niketas Choniates also confirms that Triballians are Thraco-Illyrian Tribe who descend from Pannonian Tribes whom they call themselves in their own language "Serbs".

Here are the uncovered Haplogroups from Western Balkans 8000 years old:

https://arhiva.dnk.poreklo.rs/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/%D0%BB%D0%B2%D0%B2%D0%B2.png


We can conclude, without a shadow of a doubt, that modern Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia represent the OLDEST LIVING European People, Older than Greeks, Older than Romans, Older than Indo-European Germanic Peoples.

Illyrians, Thracians are Serbs, Bosnians, Croatians, Romanians and some Bulgarians.

Albanians are paternally Greeks, there is no doubt about that.

[MiloshN]

E1b coming with the Greeks?

[Dick]

This makes sense, doctor.


http://www.osterholm.net/thracian.html


Thracians: Ancestors of the Swedes


Is the I2 in scandinavia the same?

[Bosniensis]

E1b coming with the Greeks?

Greeks are technically Dead. They are Romans today cause they are mixed.

Greeks are mix of I, J and E (predominantly)

Meaning = Romans

Because later, I,J,E and some R1b were the major force behind Roman Empire.

But some believe that original haplogroup of the oldest Hellenes is E1b.

[Bosniensis]

This makes sense, doctor.


http://www.osterholm.net/thracian.html



Is the I2 in scandinavia the same?

Absolutely.

I1 is also from original I haplogroup that was alone in Europe, but some catastrophe divided I1 and I2 so people became separated.

Indo-Europeans later populated our ex-territories and made it their own which is why you have our people In Scandinavia and Balkans, but before that they were everywhere.

Illyrians were afraid that Sky will fall on their heads, that could be related to some event in the past.

Also Illyrians were affraid to exploit land and build unatural buildings (they were afraid to offend Mother Earth) also related to some Post-Catastrophic Fear.

That is my opinion.

[MiloshN]

Ask for my friend, he is E1b xD

[Dick]

Absolutely.

I1 is also from original I haplogroup that was alone in Europe, but some catastrophe divided I1 and I2 so people became separated.

Indo-Europeans later populated our ex-territories and made it their own which is why you have our people In Scandinavia and Balkans, but before that they were everywhere.

Illyrians were afraid that Sky will fall on their heads, that could be related to some event in the past.

Also Illyrians were affraid to exploit land and build unatural buildings (they were afraid to offend Mother Earth) also related to some Post-Catastrophic Fear.

That is my opinion.

Obelix (from the Asterix books) was afraid of the sky falling on his head.

[Bosniensis]

Romans say that Illyrians did not want to make a peace with them and that they always attacked Roman Merchant ships.

But let's see this anology:

Illyrians believed in Belibog and Crnobog or Perun and Veles. Illyrians believed that their forefather Ilios was Perun's incarnation which is why they venerated Ilija the Thunderer well known in Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia even today as Folk religion.

Perun was the giver of life, rain, the one who raised forest and the one who give everything needed for Illyrian to live.

Veles was the guardian of all those things that were opposite of Perun like he was protector of FARMERS (people who usurped the land by forcefully planting), Veles was observed like someone who is "against Mother Nature and original order of things"

Romans were viewed as Such therefore Illyrians constantly attacked Roman Convoys cause they were "Followers of Veles" aka usurper of nature.

Later Bosnian Church transformed Perun to God and Veles to Devil in dualistic religion of two Gods.

That's why all Aromanians and people who were Latinized, Hellenized are Called = VLACHS

[Bosniensis]

Obelix (from the Asterix books) was afraid of the sky falling on his head.

They had Perun as well

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cernunnos

They called it Cernunnos (Perunos) or Perkunos (Lightning in Greek)

Modern nations aren't even aware how much words they inherited from us.

Also Celts were I2 before Indo-Europeans took their land.

All French Ancient Graveyard show I2a2 or I2a1

[Ayetooey]

This makes sense to me. So what is your explanation that only specific areas of the Balkans are high in I2 (Dalmatia, Herzegovina, etc) are these slavified natives? If so how are the same subclades in Poland/Ukraine? Unless some of these paleo-Balkanites went north more recently?

[JQP4545]

Demetrios Chalkondyles: Thracians and Illyrians are the oldest people in Europe.

Herodotus: Thracians pre-date Greeks and Romans.

Modern Scientists: I2 haplogroup is the oldest haplogroup in Europe.

8000 years ago, only certain parts of Europe were habitable. Southern Europe was the only habitable part where I2 haplogroup and all it's clades
evolved when J (Roman Haplogroup) was far away from Europe. Some believe that E1b haplogroup came as second, and those people are related to Greeks (Albanians included)

Niketas Choniates also confirms that Triballians are Thraco-Illyrian Tribe who descend from Pannonian Tribes whom they call themselves in their own language "Serbs".

Here are the uncovered Haplogroups from Western Balkans 8000 years old:

https://arhiva.dnk.poreklo.rs/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/%D0%BB%D0%B2%D0%B2%D0%B2.png


We can conclude, without a shadow of a doubt, that modern Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia represent the OLDEST LIVING European People, Older than Greeks, Older than Romans, Older than Indo-European Germanic Peoples.

Illyrians, Thracians are Serbs, Bosnians, Croatians, Romanians and some Bulgarians.

Albanians are paternally Greeks, there is no doubt about that.

The chart that you posted does not include the dominant clad in the Balkans today, which is I2a1b-Dinaric and this is a haplogroup that we still haven't found in any ancient samples from the Balkans today.

[arkas]

Is l2 438 the same as I-M438?

[Bosniensis]

The chart that you posted does not include the dominant clad in the Balkans today, which is I2a1b-Dinaric and this is a haplogroup that we still haven't found in any ancient samples from the Balkans today.

lol of course, we don't have different haplogroup but different mutation.

Our Mutation emerged 2000 years ago, but of course that we existed even before that and our mutation was I2a1 P37 which was found.

[Bosniensis]

Is l2 438 the same as I-M438?

of course, it's just missing subclade. You are having either Celtic or Illyrian subclade.

[Dick]

lol of course, we don't have different haplogroup but different mutation.

Our Mutation emerged 2000 years ago, but of course that we existed even before that and our mutation was I2a1 P37 which was found.

Yup. I2a1 P37 is I2a1b-Dinaric hence the suffix "Dinaric" from where it originated lol. Same for the two basal I-M170 that were found, forefather of both I2 and I1. We are indigenous to the Balkans. E and J are obviously not. Eat your fucking hearts out.

[Bosniensis]

Yup. I2a1 P37 is I2a1b-Dinaric hence the suffix "Dinaric" from where it originated lol. Same for the two basal I-M170 that were found, forefather of both I2 and I1. We are indigenous to the Balkans. E and J are obviously not. Eat your fucking hearts out.

All I haplos are from Balkans, 8000 years ago most of Europe was not habitable except Italy and Balkans.

That's why J2 people (Romans) were observed like migrants by Celts and Illyrians and that's how they acted against Romans until very much later when they were Romanized etc..

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-J--ImZ0mu0A/T1wDCr3SXUI/AAAAAAAADo8/PAEvmtpMRfI/s640/Map-8000BC.jpg

[Dick]

All I haplos are from Balkans, 8000 years ago most of Europe was not habitable except Italy and Balkans.

That's why J2 people (Romans) were observed like migrants by Celts and Illyrians and that's how they acted against Romans until very much later when they were Romanized etc..

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-J--ImZ0mu0A/T1wDCr3SXUI/AAAAAAAADo8/PAEvmtpMRfI/s640/Map-8000BC.jpg

Who cares about autosmaltardism. Out forefathers were in Europe for 40,000 years or more lol.

[Bosniensis]

Who cares about autosmaltardism. Out forefathers were in Europe for 40,000 years or more lol.

Yeah

https://lundiak.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/i_haplogroup_migration_map.png

And I will not allow that some Greek tell us we are Alien on Balkans cause were here before them.

[Dick]

Yeah

And I will not allow that some Greek tell us we are Alien on Balkans cause were here before them.

what does your 23andme say for I2?


https://i.imgur.com/jxj3TVK.png

[Bosniensis]

Doggerland: A Real-Life Atlantis

One of the places that was repopulated as the Ice Age waned no longer exists. During the Ice Age and for some time afterward, lower sea levels exposed much of the area that is now covered by the North Sea. Known as "Doggerland," the region must have been occupied by men bearing haplogroup I, because today it is abundant in all of the countries surrounding the North Sea.

As the meltwaters of the retreating Ice Age glaciers caused sea levels to rise, the low-lying forests and wetlands of Doggerland gradually became inundated. Doggerland's inhabitants retreated to the higher ground that is now the North Sea coast. I-M170 is especially common today in Scandinavia and is somewhat common in England, Germany and the Netherlands.

---

They didn't saw Serbian DNA project Table from original post that shows I on Balkans.

[Bosniensis]

Another important thing:

People from Lepeinski Vir, Vinca married Womans that had mtdna U5

Those U5 womans are today predominantly located in Scandinavia

https://i.postimg.cc/hvBn7YZL/download.jpg

So what does that mean?

Well that confirms the theory of Herodotus who said that Thracians lived from Greece Thessaly all the way up to Northern Sea, It's that Indo-European invasion (Germans etc...) that split our people in Half.

Really interesting.

[Cleitus]

The oldest E1b samples found in the balkans are one from the Sopot culture in Hungary (5000-4800 BCE) and the other is one from the zemunica cave near split (5500 BCE).
The high amount of EV-13 is due to the founder effect, if you still haven't understood that.

[Cleitus]

Who cares about autosmaltardism. Out forefathers were in Europe for 40,000 years or more lol.

By that logic 30% of aframs could claim to be native Anglo Saxons, based on their Y DNA.

[Pribislav]

The oldest E1b samples found in the balkans are one from the Sopot culture in Hungary (5000-4800 BCE) and the other is one from the zemunica cave near split (5500 BCE).
The high amount of EV-13 is due to the founder effect, if you still haven't understood that.

There was no E1b in Vinča, Lepenski Vir and Stasrčevo cultures.

[Cleitus]

Another important thing:

People from Lepeinski Vir, Vinca married Womans that had mtdna U5

Those U5 womans are today predominantly located in Scandinavia

https://i.postimg.cc/hvBn7YZL/download.jpg

So what does that mean?

Well that confirms the theory of Herodotus who said that Thracians lived from Greece Thessaly all the way up to Northern Sea, It's that Indo-European invasion (Germans etc...) that split our people in Half.

Really interesting.

So Basques are thracian to apparently?

[Bosniensis]

So Basques are thracian to apparently?

We don't know, I haven't seen Basque Y-DNA, if they have strong I haplogroup they are Celtic most likely.

But Celts, Illyrians, Thracians are the same people ...

[Cleitus]

There was no E1b in Vinča, Lepenski Vir and Stasrčevo cultures.

Vinca culture doesn't even date as far as Sopot culture.

[Cleitus]

We don't know, I haven't seen Basque Y-DNA, if they have strong I haplogroup they are Celtic most likely.

But Celts, Illyrians, Thracians are the same people ...

No, they probably have the highest amount of R1b in all of western Europe.

[Pribislav]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97AjbjCF_C4&t=1s

[Bosniensis]

Vinca culture doesn't even date as far as Sopot culture.

I2a1 P37 has been found in Serbia dating 8000 B.C

Keep in mind, NO other locations beside balkans and italy were habitable, also our I2a1b CTS 10228 did not exist we belonged then to some older clade, and our older clade than CTS 10228 is I2a1 P37 that has been found.

This is undisputed evidence that I2a1 people lived on Balkans before anyone else and that Slavic migrations were minimal and fairytale.

[Pribislav]

I2a1 P37 has been found in Serbia dating 8000 B.C

Keep in mind, NO other locations beside balkans and italy were habitable, also our I2a1b CTS 10228 did not exist we belonged then to some older clade, and our older clade than CTS 10228 is I2a1 P37 that has been found.

This is undisputed evidence that I2a1 people lived on Balkans before anyone else and that Slavic migrations were minimal and fairytale.

:thumb001:

[Cleitus]

I2a1 P37 has been found in Serbia dating 8000 B.C

Keep in mind, NO other locations beside balkans and italy were habitable, also our I2a1b CTS 10228 did not exist we belonged then to some older clade, and our older clade than CTS 10228 is I2a1 P37 that has been found.

This is undisputed evidence that I2a1 people lived on Balkans before anyone else and that Slavic migrations were minimal and fairytale.

There were no I2a people*.
What matters is autosomal DNA and shared IBD segments.

[Kelmendasi]

Lol at all the people taking Bosniensis seriously. The I2a1b-Din in the Balkans is from the Slavic migrations, there is no doubt about that. The I2a1b-CTS10228 has highest diversity in eastern Europe and the subclades have low TMRCA dating back to the middle ages. Serbs connecting to the one I2a* sample from Serbia is just dumb, it's like me saying that my J1 comes from Mesolithic Russians since it was found in Mesolithic Karelia, but this isn't the case. Also just look at how all the I2a apart from one was I2a2a

[Cleitus]

Lol at all the people taking Bosniensis seriously. The I2a1b-Din in the Balkans is from the Slavic migrations, there is no doubt about that. The I2a1b-CTS10228 has highest diversity in eastern Europe and the subclades have low TMRCA dating back to the middle ages. Serbs connecting to the one I2a* sample from Serbia is just dumb, it's like me saying that my J1 comes from Mesolithic Russians since it was found in Mesolithic Karelia, but this isn't the case. Also just look at how all the I2a apart from one was I2a2a

Seriozisht e ka ky.

[Kelmendasi]

There was no E1b in Vinča, Lepenski Vir and Stasrčevo cultures.
Not in those, but there was E1b in the western Balkan cardium pottery culture. You do realise that no I2a1b was found in Vinca, Lepenski Vir and Starcevo? You should connect more with NW Europe, there I2a1b has been found multiple times

[Kelmendasi]

Seriozisht e ka ky.
Asht troll

[Pribislav]

Lol at all the people taking Bosniensis seriously. The I2a1b-Din in the Balkans is from the Slavic migrations, there is no doubt about that. The I2a1b-CTS10228 has highest diversity in eastern Europe and the subclades have low TMRCA dating back to the middle ages. Serbs connecting to the one I2a* sample from Serbia is just dumb, it's like me saying that my J1 comes from Mesolithic Russians since it was found in Mesolithic Karelia, but this isn't the case. Also just look at how all the I2a apart from one was I2a2a

From where I2a came to eastern Europe? From Venus or Mars?

East Europe was under the ice since last ice age.

[Bosniensis]

Lol at all the people taking Bosniensis seriously. The I2a1b-Din in the Balkans is from the Slavic migrations, there is no doubt about that. The I2a1b-CTS10228 has highest diversity in eastern Europe and the subclades have low TMRCA dating back to the middle ages. Serbs connecting to the one I2a* sample from Serbia is just dumb, it's like me saying that my J1 comes from Mesolithic Russians since it was found in Mesolithic Karelia, but this isn't the case. Also just look at how all the I2a apart from one was I2a2a

Are you mentally Ill... can't you read what I have wrote?

I2a1 P37 (OUR OLDER CLADE) stop repating I2a1b-Din when that clade did not exist 2300 years ago. DID NOT EXIST!

8000 years ago we belonged to I2a1 P37 clade that was found in Vinca Culture grounds, and that is OUR ANCIENT CLADE before mutations.

Also 8000 years ago, I2 was located ONLY on Balkans... there was nothing beyond balkans.

Try to understand that and stop repeating your bullshit.

The fact you have various I2 haplogroups in Europe is because we conquered Entire Europe and Europe was solely our territory.

[Kelmendasi]

Are you mentally Ill... can't you read what I have wrote?

I2a1 P37 (OUR OLDER CLADE) stop repating I2a1b-Din when that clade did not exist 2300 years ago. DID NOT EXIST!

8000 years ago we belonged to I2a1 P37 clade that was found in Vinca Culture grounds, and that is OUR ANCIENT CLADE before mutations.

Also 8000 years ago, I2 was located ONLY on Balkans... there was nothing beyond balkans.

Try to understand that and stop repeating your bullshit.
Look here Bosniensis, you dumb ass. Your ancestral clade being found in the Balkans doesn't matter at all, it's like me connecting with Mesolithic Karelians. What matters is actual clade, if you actually understood anything about haplogroups you would agree. Anyways, your direct ancestral clade, I2a1b-L147.2 was found in Mesolithic Sweden. Plus, not all of western and central Europe was under Ice, the oldest I2 sample is from Mesolithic Switzerland

[Kelmendasi]

From where I2a came to eastern Europe? From Venus or Mars?

East Europe was under the ice since last ice age.
Christ, I was talking about your actual clade, I2a itself doesn't matter where it was found since that doesn't change where your clade came from. Anyways, a large amount of space in eastern Europe wasn't covered in ice.

[Bosniensis]

Look here Bosniensis, you dumb ass. Your ancestral clade being found in the Balkans doesn't matter at all, it's like me connecting with Mesolithic Karelians. What matters is actual clade, if you actually understood anything about haplogroups you would agree. Anyways, your direct ancestral clade, I2a1b-L147.2 was found in Mesolithic Sweden. Plus, not all of western and central Europe was under Ice, the oldest I2 sample is from Mesolithic Switzerland

So when my I2a1 mutated in 300 B.C. all my older ancestors vanished into thin air? Are you joking?

Are you saying that I fell from the Sky in 300 B.C. and that before that I did not exist?

We had the largest community in Europe that lived in multiple isolated locations which is why our I2 haplogroup mutated many times unlike yours.

People in Serbia belong to I2a1 P37 clade that just mutated few times nothing else... but they ARE THE SAME THOSE PEOPLE who lived in Serbia 8000 B.C.

My direct ancestor is from Vinca Culture, that's a fact not wishful thinking or trolling as you say.

[Kelmendasi]

So when my I2a1 mutated in 300 B.C. all my older ancestors vanished into thin air? Are you joking?

Are you saying that I fell from the Sky in 300 B.C. and that before that I did not exist?

We had the largest community in Europe that lived in multiple isolated locations which is why our I2 haplogroup mutated many times unlike yours.

People in Serbia belong to I2a1 P37 clade that just mutated few times nothing else... but they ARE THE SAME THOSE PEOPLE who lived in Serbia 8000 B.C.

My direct ancestor is from Vinca Culture, that's a fact not wishful thinking or trolling as you say.
Again, you connecting with ancestral clades is plain stupid. What matters is your actual subclade, which is a clear indication of Slavic paternal origin. And basal older clades do die out, which is why basal clades are rare, anyways you don't even belong to a basal clade so idk what you're on about. Only Starcevo had I2a1 and that is highly likely to have either been basal or I2a1-M26, all other I2a in the Balkans was I2a2a. Your direct ancestor is from Mesolithic Sweden as I said, all Din clades come from L147.2.

[Kelmendasi]

E1b coming with the Greeks?
Nope.

[Bosniensis]

Again, you connecting with ancestral clades is plain stupid. What matters is your actual subclade, which is a clear indication of Slavic paternal origin. And basal older clades do die out, which is why basal clades are rare, anyways you don't even belong to a basal clade so idk what you're on about. Only Starcevo had I2a1 and that is highly likely to have either been basal or I2a1-M26, all other I2a in the Balkans was I2a2a. Your direct ancestor is from Mesolithic Sweden as I said, all Din clades come from L147.2.

You are stupid.

I don't wanna waste my time with butthurt Albo.

[Kelmendasi]

You are stupid.

I don't wanna waste my time with butthurt Albo.
Yh ok, go LARP some more

[Kelmendasi]

This makes sense to me. So what is your explanation that only specific areas of the Balkans are high in I2 (Dalmatia, Herzegovina, etc) are these slavified natives? If so how are the same subclades in Poland/Ukraine? Unless some of these paleo-Balkanites went north more recently?
I2a1b-Din and it's subclades found in the Balkans, are due to Slavic migrations.

[Cleitus]

The slavocentrist lost it, and goes ad hominem.

[Bosniensis]

I2a1b-Din and it's subclades found in the Balkans, are due to Slavic migrations.

I2a1 in Belarus and Poland are found because of Balkan conquests.

Some stayed others moved there... try to understand that lol.

[Ayetooey]

I2a1b-Din and it's subclades found in the Balkans, are due to Slavic migrations.

Yes but the haplogroup came from the Balkans before this due to the ice age, I2a was slavified and has nothing to do with the proto slavs. I've seen no indication that eastern europe was free of ice btw as you suggest, only that the Balkans, Iberia and Italy was. 23andme suggests vast majority of these ancient people were in the balkans as per my haplogroup page and every source on I2 suggests that the three area's I mentioned previously were the only ones left for native Europeans. This is the first time I've heard an ancient link to Eastern Europe.

[Bosniensis]

Yes but the haplogroup came from the Balkans before this due to the ice age, I2a was slavified and has nothing to do with the proto slavs. I've seen no indication that eastern europe was free of ice btw as you suggest, only that the Balkans, Iberia and Italy was. 23andme suggests vast majority of these ancient people were in the balkans as per my haplogroup page and every source on I2 suggests that the three area's I mentioned previously were the only ones left for humans. This is the first time I've heard an ancient link to Eastern Europe.

He understands that, but he refuses to accept that. Indoctrination and brainwashing did a lot of dmg to Albanians.

[Ayetooey]

The slavocentrist lost it, and goes ad hominem.

What's your haplogroup? Your paternal origins are probably in North-East Africa or the middle east like most Albanians bro. Unless you're a rare, lucky I2 making you an Europeanised Albanian.

[Kelmendasi]

Yes but the haplogroup came from the Balkans before this due to the ice age, I2a was slavified and has nothing to do with the proto slavs. I've seen no indication that eastern europe was free of ice btw as you suggest, only that the Balkans, Iberia and Italy was. 23andme suggests vast majority of these ancient people were in the balkans as per my haplogroup page and every source on I2 suggests that the three area's I mentioned previously were the only ones left for native Europeans. This is the first time I've heard an ancient link to Eastern Europe.
It is highly likely that I2 itself was from western Europe and not the Balkans, oldest I2 samples are from western Europe. I2a may have migrated to the Balkans but the I2a that was there isn't the same as the I2a which is there now, this is the part that must be understood. The I2a1b-Din clades found among South Slavs is from the Slavic migrations, it reaches highest diversity in eastern Europe(between Poland, Ukraine and Belarus) and the subclades have low TMRCA dating back to the early middle ages, as well as oldest sample being found in east and NW Europe. As for it's distant origin, it probably came from NW Europe as suggested by the oldest I2a1b-L147.2 being found there and how common I2a1b in general was in the area. It was definitely incorporated into the Proto-Slavs.

[Kelmendasi]

What's your haplogroup? Your paternal origins are probably in North-East Africa or the middle east like most Albanians bro. Unless you're a rare, lucky I2 making you an Europeanised Albanian.
Yh sure J and E may have come from the middle east, but this doesn't mean much. Going by your logic the most dominant haplogroups in Europe aren't European either, R1a and R1b. Plus, the dominant haplogroups found among Albanians were actually present among Paleo-Balkanites, can't say the same for I2a1b-Din though

[Cleitus]

He understands that, but he refuses to accept that. Indoctrination and brainwashing did a lot of dmg to Albanians.

He actually said something contrary to your tales.
Your subclade was slaviziced making the bearers indistinguishable from their R1a peers and then they Resettled there during Slavic migration.

[Bosniensis]

He actually said something contrary to your tales.
Your subclade was slaviziced making the bearers indistinguishable from their R1a peers and then they Resettled there during Slavic migration.

How does he know which language was spoken in Bosnia 300 B.C? He doesn't know.

We all know that Romans had serious issues to Latinize Illyrians because they had complex language.

Our language was present here along side Latin which was considered Alien language the same way Turkish was.

Paternally we have continuity from Balkans for thousands of years.

That I2a1 P37 from 6000 B.C. is my direct paternal Ancestor.

We can absolutely claim Vinča and Vucedol as our culture.

[Cleitus]

What's your haplogroup? Your paternal origins are probably in North-East Africa or the middle east like most Albanians bro. Unless you're a rare, lucky I2 making you an Europeanised Albanian.

This is absolute nonsense. I will make a thread about it, and yes I am EV-13.

[Cleitus]

How does he know which language was spoken in Bosnia 300 B.C? He doesn't know.

We all know that Romans had serious issues to Latinize Illyrians because they had complex language.

Our language was present here along side Latin which was considered Alien language the same way Turkish was.

Paternally we have continuity from Balkans for thousands of years.

That I2a1 P37 from 6000 B.C. is my direct paternal Ancestor.

We can absolutely claim Vinča and Vucedol as our culture.

No you can't claim a culture based on Y-DNA you dumb Nutt.

[Bosniensis]

No you can't claim a culture based on Y-DNA you dumb Nutt.

Paternal Ancestry = Direct Succession from Father to Son.

I2a1 P37 is my direct paternal ancestor. That I2a1 P37 found in Vinca is my great grand father x (n) generations.

It's not that complicated to understand.

[Tschaikisten]

You literally doesn't understand that they are I2a2-M223?

[Thanas Django]

It's not that complicated to understand.

That following an Arab religion makes you an Arab culturally and your country a shithole? Yes, that is very easy to follow.

Good for your father's line that sucked the cocks of Turks for almost a millenium.

[Bosniensis]

You literally doesn't understand that they are I2a2-M223?

I2a1 P37 was also found.

Now, 300 B.C. I2a1b CTS 10228 did not exist, 2000 B.C. maybe another mutation, 4000 B.C. another mutation ...

So that I2a1 P37 is direct paternal ancestor to those I2a1 10228 CTS

except if you believe that my Grand father fell from the sky in 300 B.C.

[Tschaikisten]

except if you believe that my Grand father fell from the sky in 300 B.C.




https://i.imgur.com/FS2n3po.png

[Bosniensis]

That following an Arab religion makes you an Arab culturally and your country a shithole? Yes, that is very easy to follow.

Good for your father's line that sucked the cocks of Turks for almost a millenium.

Hellenized Arab like you is coping on The Apricity bashing Bosnians?

I don't give a fuck man... we have legitimacy to install any religion we want.

Who are you to lecture me?

People like You, Kasidiaris, Pavlopulos are observed as gypsies here in Bosnia.

Christianity brought many Garbage to Europe you are among those as well.

Go ahead try to insult me, hit me the best you can... pathetic insect.

[Bosniensis]

...

Have you read Herodotus works?

He said: "Thracians are the most numerous people on Earth, second only to Hindus. They predate Both Greeks and Romans, Their territories stretch from Thessaly to Northern Sea"

You can also find a narration how Swedes Claim Thracian identity.

It's just our community was so big (before destruction) that smaller nations like Albanians and Greeks respectively are playing with our subclades and want to present us as Aliens.

ALL I2 people were present only in Serbia 8000 B.C. because no other location was habitable in Europe, and all conquests and migrations started from Serbia.

Do you find this reasonable? I do..

[Thanas Django]

.

Can you show me the part in Herodotus works where it says that Arabs are native to the Mediterranean?

I don't care about the opinions of wannabe Turks.

[Tschaikisten]

Have you read Herodotus works?

He said: "Thracians are the most numerous people on Earth, second only to Hindus. They predate Both Greeks and Romans, Their territories stretch from Thessaly to Northern Sea"

You can also find a narration how Swedes Claim Thracian identity.
It's just our community was so big (before destruction) that smaller nations like Albanians and Greeks respectively are playing with our subclades and want to present us as Aliens.



:blink:

You can not understand difference between Mesolithic site Motala in Sweden and Iron Age population like Thracians. Typical Deretic & co follower, brainwashed without any self-criticism.

[Pribislav]

Have you read Herodotus works?

He said: "Thracians are the most numerous people on Earth, second only to Hindus. They predate Both Greeks and Romans, Their territories stretch from Thessaly to Northern Sea"

You can also find a narration how Swedes Claim Thracian identity.

It's just our community was so big (before destruction) that smaller nations like Albanians and Greeks respectively are playing with our subclades and want to present us as Aliens.

ALL I2 people were present only in Serbia 8000 B.C. because no other location was habitable in Europe, and all conquests and migrations started from Serbia.

Do you find this reasonable? I do..

www.osterholm.net/thracian.html

[Bosniensis]

:blink:

You can not understand difference between Mesolithic site Motala in Sweden and Iron Age population like Thracians. Typical Deretic & co follower, brainwashed without any self-criticism.

What Iron Age?

Thracians are children of Tiras their father lived in modern day Bulgaria many years ago probably back to 15.000 B.C. or even longer.

The reason they were called and mentioned as Thracians by Greeks and Romans at that point in time (Iron Age) doesn't mean they did not exist BEFORE!

The fact that Greek historians mention Thracians as people who predate Greeks ... well they are then at lest older than 1500 B.C.

Lol man come on think again.

[Thanas Django]

What Iron Age?

Thracians are children of Tiras their father lived in modern day Bulgaria many years ago probably back to 15.000 B.C. or even longer.

The reason they were called and mentioned as Thracians by Greeks and Romans at that point in time (Iron Age) doesn't mean they did not exist BEFORE!

The fact that Greek historians mention Thracians as people who predate Greeks ... well they are then at lest older than 1500 B.C.

Lol man come on think again.

Raine, are you trolling us?

[Tauromachos]

Hellenized Arab like you is coping on The Apricity bashing Bosnians?

People like You, Kasidiaris, Pavlopulos are observed as gypsies here in Bosnia.



No Greek cares as what they are observed in Bosnia

[Bosniensis]

Raine, are you trolling us?

If you need some attention go create a thread .. I'll post there to satisfy your attention needs, just don't ruin this one please.

[Thanas Django]

.

:blink:

You can't even understand the difference between Mesolithic site Motala in Sweden and Iron Age population like Thracians. A typical worthless Deretic & co follower, brainwashed and devoid of any capacity to form a third person perspective.

[Tauromachos]

...II'll post there to satisfy your attention needs, just don't ruin this one please.

Like you did so many other ones ? :lol:

[IncelSlayer]

https://i.imgur.com/jZgDhiP.gif

Good thread.When they found the parent clade of the albanian EV-13 subclade in Bronze Age West Balkans, all albos jumped saying that they are native.But when they found the I2a1b parent clade in Western Balkans 6000 BC suddenly yugoslavs cant claim they are native.

https://i.imgur.com/wVSzTcM.gif

[Jana]

It's not CTS10228. Our subclade is Slavic, and thank God it is so. I would kill myself if my paternal ancestors were Vlachs.

[Kelmendasi]

[IM]https://i.imgur.com/jZgDhiP.gif[/IMG]

Good thread.When they found the parent clade of the albanian EV-13 subclade in Bronze Age West Balkans, all albos jumped saying that they are native.But when they found the I2a1b parent clade in Western Balkans 6000 BC suddenly yugoslavs cant claim they are native.

[IG]https://i.imgur.com/wVSzTcM.gif[/IMG]
They are two different things. The clade found in the Neolithic Dalmatian sample was the direct father clade, the clade of I2a1 found in Starcevo wasn't the direct father clade. Plus, E-V13 has highest diversity in the western Balkans, I2a1b-CTS10228 doesn't. The direct father clade of I2a1b-CTS10228 was found in Mesolithic Motala, Sweden.

[Jana]

You literally doesn't understand that they are I2a2-M223?

Hahaha lol :thumb001:

[Carpatz]

It's not CTS10228. Our subclade is Slavic, and thank God it is so. I would kill myself if my paternal ancestors were Vlachs.

Stears' hate is leaking into your posts lately. Anyway, Dalmatia is Vlach land, as your Croatian compatriot @IncelSlayer can confirm.

[Bosniensis]

They are two different things. The clade found in the Neolithic Dalmatian sample was the direct father clade, the clade of I2a1 found in Starcevo wasn't the direct father clade. Plus, E-V13 has highest diversity in the western Balkans, I2a1b-CTS10228 doesn't. The direct father clade of I2a1b-CTS10228 was found in Mesolithic Motala, Sweden.

I have read entire I2 tree and I2a1 P37 is direct paternal ancestor of I2a1b CTS 10228 that mutated several times from 7000 B.C. to 300 B.C.

So your argument is completely false.

I2a1 P37 has been found @Vinča

[Kelmendasi]

I have read entire I2 tree and I2a1 P37 is direct paternal ancestor of I2a1b CTS 10228 that mutated several times from 7000 B.C. to 300 B.C.

So your argument is completely false.

I2a1 P37 has been found @Vinča
Well it's not. This is the tree https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/ so you're lying. P37 is the distant ancestral clade of CTS10228, not direct father clade. Vinca was G2a2a, Starcevo was the only one which had I2a1, and that was likely either basal or ancestral to I2a1-M26

[Pribislav]

I would kill myself if my paternal ancestors were Vlachs.

Why, what is wrong with Vlachs?

When I went to school in the book of history it was written that Vlachs are native people of the Balkans, and Slavs are barbarian imigrants from Pripyat swamp without any culture.
Recently I have experienced spirutual and intelectual enlightenment and I realized that everything is different than in mainstream. Not only about histiory/genetic, but about everything. We live in the world of deception and lies, universe is probably hologram.

[Bosniensis]

Well it's not. This is the tree https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/ so you're lying. P37 is the distant ancestral clade of CTS10228, not direct father clade.

I-P37 (8000 B.C)
I-M423
I-Y3104
I-L621
I-CTS10936
I-S19848I-
I-CTS4002
I-CTS10228 (300 B.C)


I won?

[Jana]

Stears' hate is leaking into your posts lately. Anyway, Dalmatia is Vlach land, as your Croatian compatriot @IncelSlayer can confirm.

Vlachs =/= Romanians. You should know than in SE Europe Vlachs occupied similar social status like Gypsies, lowest of the low. And that includes Slavic sheperds that lived similar lifestyle.
There is stereotype they are wild, cruel and bloodthirsty people without any high culture, also swarthy.

Vlach similar insult like Gypsy. Ask Pribislav and he will say the same...

[Kelmendasi]

I-P37 (8000 B.C)
I-M423
I-Y3104
I-L621
I-CTS10936
I-S19848I-
I-CTS4002
I-CTS10228 (300 B.C)


I won?
I didn't bring up time or dates. I was talking about what is the direct father clade of CTS10228.

[Pribislav]

Vlachs =/= Romanians. You should know than in SE Europe Vlachs occupied similar social status like Gypsies, lowest of the low. And that includes Slavic sheperds that lived similar lifestyle.
There is stereotype they are wild, cruel and bloodthirsty people without any high culture, also swarthy.

Vlach similar insult like Gypsy. Ask Pribislav and he will say the same...

Stears, is that you? :)

[Ayetooey]

Why, what is wrong with Vlachs?

When I went to school in the book of history it was written that Vlachs are native people of the Balkans, and Slavs are barbarian imigrants from Pripyat swamp without any culture.
Recently I have experienced spirutual and intelectual enlightenment and I realized that everything is different than in mainstream. Not only about histiory/genetic, but about everything. We live in the world of deception and lies, universe is probably hologram.

My grandmothers fathers surname traces to migrants from Lika from the early 1400's, very likely they were vlachs, and vlachs of Lika were romanised illyrans who are native to the region 100 percent. I am pretty proud of that fact, most south slavs probably have vlach somewhere in their line. Jana is desperate to be western but she will never be western.

[Jana]

Why, what is wrong with Vlachs?

When I went to school in the book of history it was written that Vlachs are native people of the Balkans, and Slavs are barbarian imigrants from Pripyat swamp without any culture.
Recently I have experienced spirutual and intelectual enlightenment and I realized that everything is different than in mainstream. Not only about histiory/genetic, but about everything. We live in the world of deception and lies, universe is probably hologram.

Very interesting. In what way your opinions have changed ? I'm curious.

[Tauromachos]

Vlachs =/= Romanians. You should know than in SE Europe Vlachs occupied similar social status like Gypsies, lowest of the low. And that includes Slavic sheperds that lived similar lifestyle.
There is stereotype they are wild, cruel and bloodthirsty people without any high culture, also swarthy.


Like catgeorge :)

[Bosniensis]

I didn't bring up time or dates. I was talking about what is the direct father clade of CTS10228.

Well if I-P37 was found 8000 B.C. in Serbia count yourself. It doesn't really matter.

Important thing is :

1. That in 8000 B.C. all I2 groups were on Balkans because it was the only habitable place
2. I-P37 that has been found is paternal ancestor to 10228
3. I2 was present in all Europe, so even if you consider that some Polish I2 came to Balkans it basically came home.

This concludes the fairytale that Serbs, Bosnians are aliens on Balkans.

Technically even Greeks are aliens in comparison to us if we listen to Herodotus.

[Jana]

My grandmothers fathers surname traces to migrants from Lika from the early 1400's, very likely they were vlachs, and vlachs of Lika were romanised illyrans who are native to the region 100 percent. I am pretty proud of that fact, most south slavs probably have vlach somewhere in their line. Jana is desperate to be western but she will never be western.

Hahaha, I despise western Europe. And no dummie, Serbs were Vlachs because they were sheperds, and that is why we called them Vlachs. They were never Romance speakers and they have nothing to do with real Vlachs.

[Jana]

Like catgeorge :)

We also say ultranationalist Croats and Serbs are only Vlachs (Slavic sheperds from dinaric regions), that's why they are primitive and cruel compared to inhabitants of Panonnia or Adriatic coast.
There are so many nasty stereotypes about term Vlach I think it-s deeply offensive.

[Kelmendasi]

Well if I-P37 was found 8000 B.C. in Serbia count yourself. It doesn't really matter.

Important thing is :

1. That in 8000 B.C. all I2 groups were on Balkans because it was the only habitable place
2. I-P37 that has been found is paternal ancestor to 10228
3. I2 was present in all Europe, so even if you consider that some Polish I2 came to Balkans it basically came home.
Your specific clade isn't from the same peoples that lived in the Neolithic Balkans, what's so hard to understand? I2 probably originates in western Europe, the Balkans wasn't the only habitable place, that's BS. The dominant I2a clade in eastern Europe and the Balkans seems to have been I2a2a going by ancient DNA and I2a1b was more common in western Europe.

[Ayetooey]

Hahaha, I despise western Europe. And no dummie, Serbs were Vlachs because they were sheperds, and that is why we called them Vlachs. They were never Romance speakers and they have nothing to do with real Vlachs.

No there was two meanings for Vlachs, the sheperds (Vlach class) and ethnic Vlachs, many of whom trace there roots back to ancient Dacia. In Byzantium era they made a clear disctinction between Serbs and Vlachs and forbid them to mix. MANY vlachs are actually romanised illyrians including the vlachs of Istria and Lika, the Lika ones who I share a partial lineage with. BTW Catholic AND Orthodox vlachs were numerous in Dalmatia and both were assimilated, Catholics from Dalmatia have partial vlach blood. I hope you're not Dalmatian or you'd need to get your rope ready LOL.

How is it possible to be so ignorant?

[Carpatz]

Vlachs =/= Romanians. You should know than in SE Europe Vlachs occupied similar social status like Gypsies, lowest of the low. And that includes Slavic sheperds that lived similar lifestyle.
There is stereotype they are wild, cruel and bloodthirsty people without any high culture, also swarthy.

Vlach similar insult like Gypsy. Ask Pribislav and he will say the same...

Get off your high horse you lowly slavshit. "Vlachs" in Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia aren't Aromanian, but Romanian. Only in southern Serbia close to Kosovo maybe Aromanians exist. Now I won't even comment on the inaccurate, primitive stereotypes that you hold. I heard you idiots even think "Vlachs" commit sorcery against you.

[Jana]

No there was two meanings for Vlachs, the sheperds (Vlach class) and ethnic Vlachs, many of whom trace there roots back to ancient Dacia. In Byzantium era they made a clear disctinction between Serbs and Vlachs and forbid them to mix. MANY vlachs are actually romanised illyrians including the vlachs of Istria and Lika, the Lika ones who I share a partial lineage with. BTW Catholic AND Orthodox vlachs were numerous in Dalmatia and both were assimilated, Catholics from Dalmatia have partial vlach blood. I hope you're not Dalmatian or you'd need to get your rope ready LOL.

How is it possible to be so ignorant?

I am still waiting on your academic sources about Gheg Albanian resettlement to western Herzegovina :laugh: hahaha
Orthodox Vlachs in Dalmatia were pred. ethnically Slavic/Serb, not Aromanian. They never existed in our lands.

Your paternal lineage has absolutely nothing to do with Vlachs, otherwise 25% of Belarussians in Polesia are slavicized Illyrians :lol:

All South Slavs have ''Vlach'' admixture from medieval times, but recent mixing with Romance speakers (means few centuries back) is absolutely unheard of among SW Slavs except in eastern Serbia and Istria where Istro-Romanians live.

Get some education.

[Bosniensis]

Your specific clade isn't from the same peoples that lived in the Neolithic Balkans, what's so hard to understand? I2 probably originates in western Europe, the Balkans wasn't the only habitable place, that's BS. The dominant I2a clade in eastern Europe and the Balkans seems to have been I2a2a going by ancient DNA and I2a1b was more common in western Europe.

Every single geneticist confirmed that I2 spread to Western Europe of course from Balkans.
Celts were I2a2 of course, but they came from Balkans. Geneticist prove that and Greek Mythology. (Cadmus, Celtus, Illyrius story etc...)

Also Greek Bibliotheca says that Celts and Illyrians are people who descended from two brothers. That also aligns with the fact
they had the same Haplogroup. Celts worshiped https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cernunnos or to say Perun as a God.

I could really write a Book if I knew how to.

https://lundiak.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/i_haplogroup_migration_map.png


Also check the Ice Age and you'll figure out why I2 was on Balkans first and not in Western Europe first.

[Pribislav]

Very interesting. In what way your opinions have changed ? I'm curious.

Long story...

I don't want to be associated with barbarians, witthout culture who occupied lands of other people and committed genocides agains them. This is mainstrem stereotype.
My nation gave to world the greatest mind ever https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla and many other people from my nation participated in development of world civilization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caregory:Serbian_scientists and people which even today live in tribes and have blood revenge and contracted marrieges claim than my nation is barbarian and they are "civilized old civilization."

[Jana]

Get off your high horse you lowly slavshit. "Vlachs" in Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia aren't Aromanian, but Romanian. Only in southern Serbia close to Kosovo maybe Aromanians exist. Now I won't even comment on the inaccurate, primitive stereotypes that you hold. I heard you idiots even think "Vlachs" commit sorcery against you.

Dumbass, you don't even realize I don't speak about Istro-Romanians, I speak about our countrymen in dinaric alps, ethnic Slavs, who are derogaratory called Vlachs because they were poor sheperds.
That's where all negative stereotypes about Vlachs come from.

Croats from dinaric alps face discrimination in here, especially in northern and coastal Croatia, because they are considered most backward part of our society. And I never said it's right, I said that is how it is.

[Kelmendasi]

Every single geneticist confirmed that I2 spread to Western Europe of course from Balkans.
Celts were I2a2 of course, but they came from Balkans. Geneticist prove that and Greek Mythology. (Cadmus, Celtus, Illyrius story etc...)

Also Greek Bibliotheca says that Celts and Illyrians are people who descended from two brothers. That also aligns with the fact
they had the same Haplogroup. Celts worshiped https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cernunnos or to say Perun as a God.

I could really write a Book if I knew how to.

[IM]https://lundiak.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/i_haplogroup_migration_map.png[/IMG]


Also check the Ice Age and you'll figure out why I2 was on Balkans first and not in Western Europe first.
Not every geneticist claims that, especially not now considering all the ancient DNA samples that we have. Celts were mainly R1b carriers. Genetics prove nothing about a Illyrian-Celtic connection. Cernunnos wasn't the equivalent of Perun, Perun was the god of thunder and lightning whilst Cernunnos was the god of fertility, life and the underworld. This is a map of Europe under the ice age btw, western Europe clearly wasn't all under ice:

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/images/Africa/Hominids/Map_IceAges01_full.jpg



https://i.redd.it/5cc5i2ra6uj11.jpg

[Carpatz]

Dumbass, you don't even realize I don't speak about Istro-Romanians, I speak about our countrymen in dinaric alps, ethnic Slavs, who are derogaratory called Vlachs because they were poor sheperds.
That's where all negative stereotypes about Vlachs come from.

Croats from dinaric alps face discrimination in here, especially in northern and coastal Croatia, because they are considered most backward part of our society. And I never said it's right, I said that is how it is.

Your ancestors were Bosniak sheperds who migrated into Dalmatia, you're under the same subclade as Bosniensis too, textbook Vlachs.

[Jana]

Long story...

I don't want to be associated with barbarians, witthout culture who occupied lands of other people and committed genocides agains them. This is mainstrem stereotype.
My nation gave to world the greatest mind ever https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla and many other people from my nation participated in development of world civilization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caregory:Serbian_scientists and people which even today live in tribes and have blood revenge and contracted marrieges claim than my nation is barbarian and they are "civilized old civilization."

Who do you have in mind, Albanians ?

[Bosniensis]

Not every geneticist claims that, especially not now considering all the ancient DNA samples that we have. Celts were mainly R1b carriers. Genetics prove nothing about a Illyrian-Celtic connection. Cernunnos wasn't the equivalent of Perun, Perun was the god of thunder and lightning whilst Cernunnos was the god of fertility, life and the underworld. This is a map of Europe under the ice age btw, western Europe clearly wasn't all under ice:

[IMG]http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/images/Africa/Hominids/Map_IceAges01_full.jpg[/IG]



[IMG]https://i.redd.it/5cc5i2ra6uj11.jpg[/IG]


Celts were not exclusively R1b carriers. R1b Carriers came later just like E1b and J2

The oldest Haplogroup in Europe is I2 ... R1b came later but it's true that Celts were mix of I2 and R1b just like Balkans was always the mix of I2a1, I2a2 and E1b then J2 with Romans.

[Jana]

But your ancestors were Bosniak sheperds who migrated into Dalmatia, you're under the same subclade as Bosniensis too, textbook Vlachs.

My ancestors belonged to Bosnian nobility and lived in cities when majority of Christians were illiterate villagers. You don't even know muslim Bosniaks occupied rulling class in old Bosnia, and were only urban and literate population except Christian monks and priests. That is where the muslim-christian clash is coming from, because christians were subjugated to muslims for centuries like romanians were to hungarians.

Not all muslims were nobles and townsfolk ofc, but mine were. And keep in mind I really dislike Bosniaks especially because of their current treatment of BiH Croats.

[Pribislav]

Who do you have in mind, Albanians ?

Of course.

Their contribution to development of world civilization is much lower than Serbian one, and unlike that they call my nation savages, imigrants, barbarians, invaders...

Some of them even claim that Nikola Tesla was of Albanian origin. :picard1:

[Kelmendasi]

Celts were not exclusively R1b carriers. R1b Carriers came later just like E1b and J2

The oldest Haplogroup in Europe is I2 ... R1b came later but it's true that Celts were mix of I2 and R1b just like Balkans was always the mix of I2a1, I2a2 and E1b then J2 with Romans.
Nobody said they were exclusively R1b, "mainly" means that the vast majority was R1b not that they were entirely R1b. I2 isn't the oldest haplogroup in Europe, C1a2 was found with I-M170 and IJ iirc so going by this C1a2 is older. J2 didn't come with Romans.

[Ayetooey]

I am still waiting on your academic sources about Gheg Albanian resettlement to western Herzegovina :laugh: hahaha
Orthodox Vlachs in Dalmatia were pred. ethnically Slavic/Serb, not Aromanian. They never existed in our lands.

Your paternal lineage has absolutely nothing to do with Vlachs, otherwise 25% of Belarussians in Polesia are slavicized Illyrians :lol:

All South Slavs have ''Vlach'' admixture from medieval times, but recent mixing with Romance speakers (means few centuries back) is absolutely unheard of among SW Slavs except in eastern Serbia and Istria where Istro-Romanians live.

Get some education.

I never claimed my direct paternal line was Vlach you fool can you read? My I2a ancestor came from Herzegovina in the 1500's, I said my grandmothers paternal line, which came from Lika to Knin in the very early 1400's is possibly vlach as this was before the Serb migrations. How is 600 years ago recent?

During the 14th century, Vlach settlements existed throughout much of today's Croatia,[24] but centres of population were focused around the Velebit and Dinara mountains and along the Krka and Cetina rivers.[24] The Vlachs were divided into common Vlachs from Cetina and royal Vlachs from Lika.[25] The Vlach population lived on the territory of noble families; of Nelipić (Cetina–Knin), Šubić (Pokrčje), Gusić (Pozrmanje), and Frankopan (Lika)

According to Stjepan Pavičić (1931), the Romance Vlachs or Morlachs of the Dinara and Velebit lost their Romance language by the 14th or 15th century, or were at least bilingual at that time.

Roman speaking Vlachs were assimilated by the end of the 14th century, also notice this is well before major Serb migrations. The original Dalmatian Croats pre ottoman probably have more Romanian dna than Dalmatian Serbs.

[Jana]

Of course.

Their contribution to development of world civilization is much lower than Serbian one, and unlike that they call may nation savages, imigrants, barbarians, invaders...

Some of them even claim that Nikola Tesla was of Albanian origin. :picard1:

Illyrians were primitive people before they became part of Roman Empire. They did not even develop an alphabet. But when they became romanised, they did play somewhat significant role in the Empire, like Emperor Diocletian who was Dalmatian.

[Pribislav]

I never claimed my direct paternal line was Vlach you fool can you read? My I2a ancestor came from Herzegovina in the 1500's, I said my grandmothers paternal line, which came from Lika to Knin in the very early 1400's is possibly vlach as this was before the Serb migrations. How is 600 years ago recent?

During the 14th century, Vlach settlements existed throughout much of today's Croatia,[24] but centres of population were focused around the Velebit and Dinara mountains and along the Krka and Cetina rivers.[24] The Vlachs were divided into common Vlachs from Cetina and royal Vlachs from Lika.[25] The Vlach population lived on the territory of noble families; of Nelipić (Cetina–Knin), Šubić (Pokrčje), Gusić (Pozrmanje), and Frankopan (Lika)

According to Stjepan Pavičić (1931), the Romance Vlachs or Morlachs of the Dinara and Velebit lost their Romance language by the 14th or 15th century, or were at least bilingual at that time.

Roman speaking Vlachs were assimilated by the end of the 14th century, also notice this is well before major Serb migrations. The original Dalmatian Croats pre ottoman probably have more Romanian dna than Dalmatian Serbs.

Vast majority of Dalmatian Serbs arrived to Dalmatia in 2 waves from Bosnia, in first half of 16th century and in late 17th century.

My ancestors came to northern Dalmatia from western Bosnia in year 1692 from this place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjelaj

[Ayetooey]

Vast majority of Dalmatian Serbs arrived to Dalmatia in 2 waves from Bosnia, in first half of 16th century and in late 17th century.

My ancestors came to northern Dalmatia from western Bosnia in year 1692 from this place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjelaj

Yes. I read a book about all the familys of Kninska Krajina and all of my surnames come from either Western Bosnia or areas of herzegovina in the 16/17th century, it's only my grandmothers paternal line which has roots in Lika in the very early 15th century, which is quite odd IMO.

I read something about Glamoc for one of my lines.

[Jana]

I never claimed my direct paternal line was Vlach you fool can you read? My I2a ancestor came from Herzegovina in the 1500's, I said my grandmothers paternal line, which came from Lika to Knin in the very early 1400's is possibly vlach as this was before the Serb migrations. How is 600 years ago recent?

During the 14th century, Vlach settlements existed throughout much of today's Croatia,[24] but centres of population were focused around the Velebit and Dinara mountains and along the Krka and Cetina rivers.[24] The Vlachs were divided into common Vlachs from Cetina and royal Vlachs from Lika.[25] The Vlach population lived on the territory of noble families; of Nelipić (Cetina–Knin), Šubić (Pokrčje), Gusić (Pozrmanje), and Frankopan (Lika)

According to Stjepan Pavičić (1931), the Romance Vlachs or Morlachs of the Dinara and Velebit lost their Romance language by the 14th or 15th century, or were at least bilingual at that time.

Roman speaking Vlachs were assimilated by the end of the 14th century, also notice this is well before major Serb migrations. The original Dalmatian Croats pre ottoman probably have more Romanian dna than Dalmatian Serbs.

Dalmatian Serbs did not existed before Ottoman Era, genius.

And these Vlach theories are long dead, because Romance speakers only survived in coastal cities. These people again confused Slavic sheperd class for ethnic Vlachs.

Most real Vlachs lived in Bulgaria, not in Dalmatia. That is why Bulgarians have such more southerly genetics than us, and why their second Empire was called Bulgarian-Vlach Empire.

[Jana]

And tell us the surname of your Lika ancestor from 15th century.

[Pribislav]

Dalmatian Serbs did not existed before Ottoman Era, genius.

Neither Dalmatian Croatians.

Dalmatia got present day borders after the Treaty of Karlowitz 1699, and Treaty of Passarovitz 1718.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Karlowitz

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Passarowitz

[Ayetooey]

Dalmatian Serbs did not existed before Ottoman Era, genius.

And these Vlach theories are long dead, because Romance speakers only survived in coastal cities. These people again confused Slavic sheperd class for ethnic Vlachs.

Most real Vlachs lived in Bulgaria, not in Dalmatia. That is why Bulgarians have such more southerly genetics than us, and why their second Empire was called Bulgarian-Vlach Empire.
Yes that was my point, since Serbs weren't in Dalmatia at the time the only people who could have assimilated these Romance speaking Vlachs (who are said to of been assimilated in the 14th/15th century) around the Dinara were the local croats, who fled North after the Ottoman era. What I've posted disagrees with you, Romance Vlachs did exist in inland Dalmatia, they weren't massively numerous like people act, but they existed, and the ONLY people who could have assimilated them were the pre ottoman era Croats.

[Jana]

Neither Dalmatian Croatians.

Dalmatia got present day borders after the Treaty of Karlowitz 1699, and Treaty of Passarovitz 1718.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Karlowitz

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Passarowitz

You are right term Dalmatian had different meanings over time.

Roman Province of Dalmatia was big, and included most of Bosnia and part of Montenegro.

When Croats settled in Dalmatia and founded our Kingdom, Dalmatia changed name to Croatia and it was quite smaller than former Roman Province but was expanding depending on how capable individual King was.

Dalmatia became synonym with Croatia.

But it changed after Croatia entered personal Union with Hungary, and Coloman was crowned in Biograd as King of Croatia and Dalmatia.

Because at that time Croatian core moved north to Panonnia (Zagreb), so northern part started to be called Croatia while Dalmatia just regained it's almost forgotten name.

And that was especially visible after Venice gained posession of Dalmatian islands, coast and hinterland. Croatian name started fading, while Dalmatia as identity once again ressurected, and it stayed until this day.

[Pribislav]

Yes. I read a book about all the familys of Kninska Krajina and all of my surnames come from either Western Bosnia or areas of herzegovina in the 16/17th century, it's only my grandmothers paternal line which has roots in Lika in the very early 15th century, which is quite odd IMO.

I read something about Glamoc for one of my lines.

Serbian families from Biskupija which is near Polača came from Glamoč in 1689. All except one family which lived there from earlier and which were muslim and converted to Orthodoxy in late 17th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biskupija
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glamoč

For your ancestors is written that they came from Bosnia in 17th century. Could be also from Glamoč.

In Polača more families lived there since 16th than 17th century, unlike Biskupija were almost all arrived from Glamoč in 1689.

[Aspar]

It's not CTS10228. Our subclade is Slavic, and thank God it is so. I would kill myself if my paternal ancestors were Vlachs.

What an ignorant comment.
Are you sure you don't have a "Balkan" mentality after all?
Your reasoning is typical "Balkanic" and hateful at that.

What you need to know is that the "Vlachs" were never a single entity or a nation but were people, subjects of the ancient Roman Empire and as such the only bond they had was the Latin language they spoke as subjects of the Roman Empire!
Therefore, you can only speak of Vlachs as some sort of social caste rather than ethnic one, as is the case in USA where the only bond between the Blacks, the European immigrants or the native people of America is the official English language they speak.

But are the Vlachs of so low status as you say?

There were two types of Vlach people in the past, the ones who decided to leave their nomadic life style and settle in the cities and become merchants, traders, bankers, land owners etc.
The other type of Vlachs were those who didn't want to give their nomadic life style because of the freedom and dignity they had in the mountains, away from invaders like Ottomans and working jobs which they respected more, such as herders rather than agriculturalists who lived in the valleys!
While you consider these nomadic Vlachs as of low status, many Western people in the last two centuries, were visiting the Balkans just to see these Vlachs and to have a first hand account of their lifestyle.

Many of those westerners were praising the Vlachs for their nature, lifestyle, intelligence such as Gustav Weigand, T.J Winfrith etc.
Also, the Vlachs as people who didn't consider as a single entity but were always loyal to the country they were residing in and consider themselves as part of the same ethnic group with the people of the main ethnic group, be it Greeks, Macedonians, Albanians or Serbs.

As such, the Vlachs were participating in the national uprisings and in the formation of the national states!
They gave many famous people wherever they lived, for example in Greece, many acted as the backbone of Hellenism: fighters against Ottoman occupation, like Rigas Feraios, Giorgakis Olympios, Georgios Karaiskakis and possibly Theodoros Kolokotronis;8 leaders of leftist resistance against the Germans (EAM), such as Alexandros Svolos and Andreas Tzimas. Distinguished writers like Kostas Krystallis and Christos Zalokostas were Vlach, as were contemporary composers like Apostolos Kaldaras, Kostas Virvos, Babis Bakalis, and Mitropanos. Many became rich Balkan merchants during the 18th and 19th centuries and many Greek national benefactors were Vlachs, such as Nikolaos Stournaris, Georgios Arsakis, Michael and Georgios Tositsas, Georgios Sinas.9Simon Sinas financed the construction of the Academy of Athens, while Georgios Averoff contributed to the first Olympic games.10There was at least one Vlach prime minister, Ioannis Kolettis (1773-1847), ministers (like Evangelos Averoff), and countless senators. Without the majority realizing it, the government of Greece was many times under the control of this ‘minority’.

In Macedonia: the Manaki brothers, who were photography and cinema pioneers and who brought the first film camera and created the first motion pictures on the Balkan Peninsula and in the Ottoman Empire, the revolutionary Pitu Guli, the singer Tose Proeski, the linguist and academic Teodor Kapidan and others!

In Serbia, one of the most famous Serbian playwright, satirist, essayist, novelist and founder of modern rhetoric in Serbia, Branislav Nusic and many others!

Seriously, before writing such a nonsense and racist remark against other people, look at your own mirror!

[Jana]

Yes that was my point, since Serbs weren't in Dalmatia at the time the only people who could have assimilated these Romance speaking Vlachs (who are said to of been assimilated in the 14th/15th century) around the Dinara were the local croats, who fled North after the Ottoman era. What I've posted disagrees with you, Romance Vlachs did exist in inland Dalmatia, they weren't massively numerous like people act, but they existed, and the ONLY people who could have assimilated them were the pre ottoman era Croats.

LOL, no. Absolutely no. Archeological remains prove that massive shift in local culture happened all over Croatia, with exception of coastal cities and part of Istria. Those were Slavic migrations.
Before that native Dalmatian population was decimated by Justinian plague and previous Hunnic and Gothic invasions. At time first wave of Slavs settled, it was pretty desolate land devoid of people.

Dalmatian Hinterland was purest SLAVIC area in entire Croatia in middle ages, because White Croats settled exactly on that place. Fist Croatian State was founded in Dalmatian Hinterland, not on Adriatic coast that was inhabited by ex Roman citizens.

Btw, seems much more Vlachs survived in Serbia than in Croatia, and that is why Serbs from Serbia shift towards Romanians and Bulgarians.

[Ayetooey]

Serbian families from Biskupija which is near Polača came from Glamoč in 1689. All except one family which lived there from earlier and which were muslim and converted to Orthodoxy in late 17th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biskupija
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glamoč

For your ancestors is written that they came from Bosnia in 17th century. Could be also from Glamoč.

In Polača more families lived there since 16th than 17th century, unlike Biskupija were almost all arrived from Glamoč in 1689.

Yeah in Polaca almost every family has roots in Western BIH, there's one family with not related to me with roots in Crna Gora and my grandmothers paternal line which is Lika. The Orthodox Church st peters in the village is actually dated back to 1458 quite a while before most of the recorded migrations but yes most of my family lines are from 17th century Bosnia.

[Ayetooey]

LOL, no. Absolutely no. Archeological remains prove that massive shift in local culture happened all over Croatia, with exception of coastal cities and part of Istria. Those were Slavic migrations.
Before that native Dalmatian population was decimated by Justinian plague and previous Hunnic and Gothic invasions. At time first wave of Slavs settled, it was pretty desolate land devoid of people.

Dalmatian Hinterland was purest SLAVIC area in entire Croatia in middle ages, because White Croats settled exactly on that place. Fist Croatian State was founded in Dalmatian Hinterland, not on Adriatic coast that was inhabited by ex Roman citizens.

Btw, seems much more Vlachs survived in Serbia than in Croatia, and that is why Serbs from Serbia shift towards Romanians and Bulgarians.

I'm sorry we're talking about the 14th and 15th centuries here not the 6th century when the Slavs settled, as I demonstrated Romance speaking vlachs existed in communities around the Dinara and the Cetina, they were later ASSIMILATED by the locals, who were undoubtedly Croats NOT Serbs since Serbs hadn't migrated yet. You've got on a tagent about White Croats which is like 800 years before what we're talking about.

Yes Vlachs survived in Serbia but mainly eastern Serbia, it's logical that bordering populations will shift towards each other somewhat.

[Jana]

..

You don't even understand we have nothing against Aromanians, as we never met one in entire life, it is common stereotypes against ''Vlachs'' in meaning social cast of semi-nomadic sheperds from dinaric alps.
We have a saying to Vlach slaughter of goat and man is the same. Did you know almost all of Ustashe and good part of Chetniks were these Slavic Vlachs from sheperding ares of dinarides ?

Did you know these people are stereotyped as capable and strong, but also as corrupted and cruel ?

BTW, I do have small part of ancestry from these dinaric Slavs, on my mother's side. They have very special mentality. City she grew up in also has Vlach mentality.
I have right to say I do not like such surroudings, fear it and prefer different ''culture''

If you like sheperd Vlachs be my guest. I prefer Slavic farmers by far.

[Pribislav]

Yeah in Polaca almost every family has roots in Western BIH, there's one family with not related to me with roots in Crna Gora and my grandmothers paternal line which is Lika. The Orthodox Church st peters in the village is actually dated back to 1458 quite a while before most of the recorded migrations but yes most of my family lines are from 17th century Bosnia.

I know, Orthodox church of St. Petar and Pavle in Polača is from year 1458 https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polača_(Knin)#Istorija

Polača and about 10 other villages in northern Dalmatia had Serbian majority in 15th century. But Serbs which lived there in 15th century migrated to Dalmatian islands and in northern Croatia when Ottomans came in 1522.
Present day Serbs in that area are from 16th and 17th century.

[Jana]

I'm sorry we're talking about the 14th and 15th centuries here not the 6th century when the Slavs settled, as I demonstrated Romance speaking vlachs existed in communities around the Dinara and the Cetina, they were later ASSIMILATED by the locals, who were undoubtedly Croats NOT Serbs since Serbs hadn't migrated yet. You've got on a tagent about White Croats which is like 800 years before what we're talking about.

Yes Vlachs survived in Serbia but mainly eastern Serbia, it's logical that bordering populations will shift towards each other somewhat.

Post some links about these Vlachs.

[Ayetooey]

I know, Orthodox church of St. Petar and Pavle in Polača is from year 1458 https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polača_(Knin)#Istorija

Polača and about 10 other villages in northern Dalmatia had Serbian majority in 15th centuty. But Serbs which lived there in 15th century migrated to Dalmatian islands and in northern Croatia when Ottomans came in 1522.
Present day Serbs in that area are from 16th and 17th century.

That's very interesting I didn't know this. I wonder how the modern descendants of those original native Serbs identify now, there's not many Serbs on the Dalmatian islands, I imagine they became Catholised over the centuries. Those pre ottoman Serbs must of been very early settlers in the region.

[Jana]

BTW, I heard Romanians hold their own stereotypes about Vlachs from Balkans from Romanian user on another forum.

[Pribislav]

That's very interesting I didn't know this. I wonder how the ancestors of those original native Serbs identify now, there's not many Serbs on the Dalmatian islands, I imagine they became Catholised over the centuries. Those pre ottoman Serbs must of been very early settlers in the region.

Serbs which lived in northern Dalmatia in 14th and 15th century migrated together with Croatians in costal Dalmatia, islands, northern Croatia, Kvarner, Burgenland... when Ottomans arrived in 1522. They were assimilated in Croatians.

In Dalmatian Kosovo https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_polje_(Dalmacija) in 12. september 1435 was mentioned Serbs Nikola Dujanović, Milutin Kupeor, Simeon Budojević and Jovan Vlatković, and in 23. july 1487 was mentioned Serb Đorđe Marković.

Surname Dujanović today carry Serbs from Đakovo in Slavonia https://actacroatica.com/en/surname/Dujanović/

Surname Budojević today carry Croatian from Križevci in northwestern Croatia https://actacroatica.com/en/surname/Budojević

Among Serbs from Dalmatian Kosovo today there is no surnames Budojević, Dujanović, Kupeor, Vlatković and Marković which were recorded in 15th century, because they migrated from Dalmatian Kosovo to area which I mentioned in 1522.

[Dick]

Lol at all the people taking Bosniensis seriously. The I2a1b-Din in the Balkans is from the Slavic migrations, there is no doubt about that. The I2a1b-CTS10228 has highest diversity in eastern Europe and the subclades have low TMRCA dating back to the middle ages. Serbs connecting to the one I2a* sample from Serbia is just dumb, it's like me saying that my J1 comes from Mesolithic Russians since it was found in Mesolithic Karelia, but this isn't the case. Also just look at how all the I2a apart from one was I2a2a

Lol at u albanians getting triggered

[Ayetooey]

Serbs which lived in northern Dalmatia in 14th and 15th century migrated together with Croatians in costal Dalmatia, islands, northern Croatia, Kvarner, Burgenland... when Ottomans arrived in 1522. They were assimilated in Croatians.

In Dalmatian Kosovo https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_polje_(Dalmacija) in 12. september 1435 was mentioned Serbs Nikola Dujanović, Milutin Kupeor, Simeon Budojević and Jovan Vlatković, and in 23. july 1487 was mentioned Đorđe Marković.

Surname Dujanović today carry Serbs from Đakovo in Slavonia https://actacroatica.com/en/surname/Dujanović/

Surname Budojević today carry Croatian from Križevci in northwestern Croatia https://actacroatica.com/en/surname/Budojević

Among Serbs from Dalmatian Kosovo today there is no surnames Budojević, Dujanović, Kupeor, Vlatković and Marković which were recorded in 15th century, because they migrated from Dalmatian Kosovo to area which I mentioned in 1522.

Very interesting. Drove past Dalmatian Kosovo with my uncle when I was overthere, quite a nice looking place. I wonder if the Serbs there came shortly after the battle of kosovo hence the name?

That ActCroatia website is so dodgy btw and I don't trust it, tells me my name surname is almost always a Croat name, even though there's many Serbs from Serbia with no history in Croatia with my surname.

[Lavrentis]

Like catgeorge :)

Catgeorge is light with blue eyes actually as far as I remember, I have seen him

[Jana]

Very interesting. Drove past Dalmatian Kosovo with my uncle when I was overthere, quite a nice looking place. I wonder if the Serbs there came shortly after the battle of kosovo hence the name?

That ActCroatia website is so dodgy btw and I don't trust it, tells me my name surname is almost always a Croat name, even though there's many Serbs from Serbia with no history in Croatia with my surname.

Again, tell us your Lika ancestor from 15th century surname ? Or are you hiding it because it is Croat ? :laugh:

[Tauromachos]

Catgeorge is light with blue eyes actually as far as I remember, I have seen him


Vlachs.....

There is stereotype they are wild, cruel and bloodthirsty people without any high culture,.....



Like catgeorge :)

[Pribislav]

Very interesting. Drove past Dalmatian Kosovo with my uncle when I was overthere, quite a nice looking place. I wonder if the Serbs there came shortly after the battle of kosovo hence the name?

That ActCroatia website is so dodgy btw and I don't trust it, tells me my name surname is almost always a Croat name, even though there's many Serbs from Serbia with no history in Croatia with my surname.

According to legend Serbs founded Dalmatian Kosovo after the Battle of Kosovo 1389. They migrated from Kosovo in Serbia to Dalmatia, and gave the name Kosovo polje to fild which is located south of Knin.

Almost all surnames which exist among Serbs also exist among Croatians.
But you are right even most stereotypical Serbian surnames are pred. Croatian according to Acta Croatica. For my surname is written that they are mostly Croatians from Našice in Slavonia. :icon_ask:

[Jana]

Bosniansis is Vlach washing SW Slavs because he's swarthy, quater Albanian and Balkan shifted compared to us. It really makes me angry. I'm really proud to be of pred. Slavic heritage. Deal with it Vlachs! :D

[Carpatz]

Bosniansis is Vlach washing SW Slavs because he's swarthy, quater Albanian and Balkan shifted compared to us. It really makes me angry. I'm really proud to be of. pred Slavic heritage. Deal with it Vlachs! :D

I thought Vlach meant dirty mountain shepherd, now suddenly it's an ethnic designation when you want to insult Bosniensis. Your cognitive dissonance is killing me sweetheart. Is "Vlach" something that you change the meaning of at your own whim? Let's stick to dictionary definition, or even better, not use this antiquated term at all.

[Pribislav]

..

[Tauromachos]

According to legend Serbs founded Dalmatian Kosovo after the Battle of Kosovo 1389. They migrated from Kosovo in Serbia to Dalmatia, and gave the name Kosovo polje to fild which is located south of Knin.


According to legend all of you are descended from Thracians

Serbs,Bosnians,Croats,Vlachs,Albanians,Romanians and Swedes are all the same

Thracians were the most numerous people on earth

[Jana]

I thought Vlach meant dirty mountain shepherd, now suddenly it's an ethnic designation when you want to insult Bosniensis. Your cognitive dissonance is killing me sweetheart. Is "Vlach" something that you change the meaning of at your own whim? Let's stick to dictionary definition, or even better, not use this antiquated term at all.

He is a Vlachoman! He hates Slavs and tries to make us all Vlachs! If we tried to make all Romanians slavic, you would be damn offended too!!

[Pribislav]

According to legend all of you are descended from Thracians

Serbs,Bosnians,Croats,Vlachs,Albanians,Romanians and Swedes are all the same

Thracians were the most numerous people on earth


In Dalmatia exist microregion Kosovo https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_polje_(Dalmacija)

Kosovo in Dalmatia had Serbian majority since 15th century.
There are many toponyms in Dalmatian Kosovo which are same as in Kosovo in Serbia, because Serbs migrated from Kosovo in Serbia to Dalmatia 600 years ago and founded Dalmatian Kosovo.

[Carpatz]

He is a Vlachoman! He hates Slavs and tries to make us all Vlachs! If we tried to make all Romanians slavic, you would be damn offended too!!

Don't worry. You're not fortunate enough to be Vlach.

[Jana]

In Dalmatia exist microregion Kosovo https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_polje_(Dalmacija)

Kosovo in Dalmatia had Serbian majority since 15th century.
There are many toponyms in Dalmatian Kosovo which are same as in Kosovo in Serbia, because Serbs migrated from Kosovo in Serbia to Dalmatia 600 years ago and founded Dalmatian Kosovo.

According to legend, Croatian King Zvonimir was slain on that same field by his angry nobles because he wanted to take them to a crusade, and they refused.
It also say dying Zvonimir cursed Croats by saying because they killed him, they will have rulers of foreign tongue for next 1000 years. And so it was.

[Jana]

Don't worry. You're not fortunate enough to be Vlach.

:lmao:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSQH4yWxJ-vPTYdGvM1p_FVcrXtLNefCw4NLFa0X-cdCL__uDXQbg

[Pribislav]

According to legend, Croatian King Zvonimir was slain on that same field by his angry nobles because he wanted to take them to a crusade, and they refused.
It also say dying Zvonimir cursed Croats by saying because they killed him, they will have rulers of foreign tongue for next 1000 years. And so it was.

Yes, but in the time of Zvonimir Kosovo Polje in Dalmatia had different name.
Zvonimir on Kosovo Polje are interpretations in the last few centuries.
Kosovo in Dalmatia is recorded under that name first time in 15th century.

[Carpatz]

:lmao:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSQH4yWxJ-vPTYdGvM1p_FVcrXtLNefCw4NLFa0X-cdCL__uDXQbg

nice gopnik swastika

https://rlv.zcache.com/spqr_roman_sticker-r76a2b32234b441d78eba37a825d81256_v9waf_8byvr_540. jpg