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Comte Arnau
04-20-2011, 03:09 PM
It was Franco’s cup, now it’s the King’s cup – what will winning the Copa del Rey mean to Barcelona?

Civil War, dictatorships and monarchies all feature in the history of this very Spanish competition, making it more than just a Clasico for the Catalans tonight.

It is the most inherently Spanish of all football tournaments. The Copa del Rey has its roots firmly planted in Castile and none of its many guises would appear to remotely connect with the politics or philosophy of Barcelona. And yet the Catalans have won it 25 times – more than any other club.

So apart from silverware, what’s in it for them?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_SBPNTahyrj0/TVArXNPNHmI/AAAAAAAAABU/AtuQ_pRyIn8/s1600/a-que-hora-juegan-copa-del-rey-final-barca-vs-madrid..jpg

The Copa began life as the Madrid City Council Cup, which is hardly likely to represent an appealing competition in Catalunya, even if Real were founded by a Catalan. Later, the competition became Franco’s cup – the Copa del Generalisimo.

Under Franco’s rule, the competition adopted his name and he presented the trophy. And much to his chagrin as a staunch Spanish nationalist and Real Madrid aficionado, the dictator was forced to hand over the famous pot to Barcelona on no less than nine occasions.

“It all goes back to the dictatorship, when Franco was around. Catalunya was living under repression,” said former Barca full-back and two-time Copa del Rey winner Albert Ferrer of the tournament, and of his side’s rivalry with Wednesday’s opponents, Real Madrid.

Franco watched on helplessly in 1968 as Barca beat his Madrid in the teams’ second final meeting. The first had come 32 years earlier, just 28 days before the cruel Civil War which left many scars and saw Franco later come into power. Madrid won that game 2-1; it was a bad year for Catalunya.

The Catalans’ next meeting with Madrid in the final, in 1990, saw Barca emerge victorious, and that success is said to have saved coach Johan Cruyff’s job.

As a player at Camp Nou, the Dutchman – who told the press he had shunned a move to Real Madrid to avoid any relationship with Franco – also picked up a cup winner’s medal.

“I won it in the King’s reign,” he said. “I was the captain of Barcelona and he awarded it to me. It was my last game for the club.”

http://www.blaugranas.com/media/wiki/25/7/2/9/4/n_20080714004542_Johan_Cruyff_johan.jpg

Cruyff should have been able to compete in the final four years earlier, when Barca and Madrid met for the third time, but foreigners were excluded from the competition under Franco, a rule scrapped along with the Copa del Generalisimo name following the dictator’s death in 1975. Without Cruyff, Barca lost 4-0: “I was only able to win one cup because as foreigners, we weren’t allowed to play in the Copa del Generalísimo. I guess they didn’t want us to shine,” said the Dutchman.

Repression had even reached football now, but times in Spain were about to change. King Juan Carlos shrewdly set about reshaping the country and a period of change began: The Transition.

The King proved a key player in the field of politics, but remained a fan on the field of football – albeit a privileged one.

Just after the Transition and the installation of democracy in Spain, Madrid and Barca met again in the final in 1983, with the Catalans triumphant on this occasion. But rivalries and tensions persisted; Spain was still divided and resentment remained.

“During Franco’s time people weren’t allowed to name their children with Catalan names; they couldn’t speak their language. That’s repression,” former Barca coach Frank Rijkaard said.

“Luckily enough it’s a long time ago, but for many people it’s fresh. You talk about repression and you will always have a reaction because people will always remember what happened there.”

Tonight, the Spanish national anthem will be played before kick-off and with the hymn expected to be roundly jeered by the Catalan fans, the Spanish Football Federation (RFEF) are reportedly ready to blare out the music as loud as possible in order to avoid conflict.

But this is Madrid against Barca in the Copa del Rey, a symbol of everything the Catalan people have grown to dislike about Spain.

“It’s Catalunya against Spain really,” former Madrid midfielder Steve McManaman added.

http://www.aop-press.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/232.jpg

“They want their own independence, they’re talking about their own autonomy, they’re talking about their own government, their own language. It’s like you are playing in a different country.”

Despite the historical differences between the two teams, ex-Real captain and central defender Fernando Hierro – a Copa del Rey winner with Madrid in 1993 – believes football should be the only consideration when the two rivals meet.

“At the end of the day this is a game of football between two eternal rivals, and this should always come before the politics,” he said.

That, however, would appear to be wishful thinking.

“I remember pulling up to the Bernabeu on the team bus and there were loads of fans in white shirts chanting [to the Catalans] 'Spain, Spain, Spain – you’re not Spain',” said former Barca coach Terry Venables.

Indeed, such fixtures are usually marked with a banner from Barca supporters with the motif ‘Catalunya is not Spain’. Striker Thierry Henry, a Copa del Rey winner with Guardiola’s side in 2009, agrees.

“Catalonia is not Spain,” Henry said. “It’s something else and you have to feel it.”

http://www.ligafutbol.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/henry-barcelona.jpg

Both sets of fans will make their feelings clear tonight and less than a year after Catalans, Basques, Madrilenos et al united to celebrate Spain’s World Cup victory last summer, old wounds will be opened again.

For Madrid, the hunger to win is extreme after two trophyless seasons spent living in the shadows of their eternal enemies, while for Barca, the passion for beating Real never diminishes.

Oleguer, former Barca defender and self-proclaimed Catalan nationalist, is a more extreme case. He wrote in his book: “When Barcelona win the league, we become the Army of joy finally able to face up to [Franco's troops].”

Meanwhile, publication Marca claims that current Barca defender Gerard Pique taunted his rivals following a tunnel bust-up with Madrid players after the Clasico on Saturday night, which ended in a 1-1 draw.

“You little Spaniards, we have won your Spanish league,” he is alleged to have said. “Now we are going to win your King’s cup.”

Although unlikely to be true and vehemently denied by Pique himself, those words will strike a chord with many in Catalunya. Barca’s famous motto is ‘more than a club’, while their relationship with Madrid could be described as more than just a rivalry. And for the Catalans, the Copa del Rey represents more than just a cup.

http://www.blogys.net/UserFiles/image/futbol/2011/ligas/02/barcelona-madrid03.jpg

REAL MADRID VS BARCELONA:

Four Clasicos in 18 days
Apr 16: La Liga
Real Madrid 1-1 Barcelona

Apr 20: Copa Del Rey final
8.30pm BST - Mestalla, Valencia

Apr 27: Champions League semi, 1st leg
7.45 BST - Bernabeu

May 3: Champions League semi 2nd leg
7.45 BST - Nou Camp


Source: goal.com (http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editorial/2011/04/20/2449634/it-was-francos-cup-now-its-the-kings-cup-what-will-winning)

antonio
04-20-2011, 05:15 PM
The whole Catalonia (tending fastly to supporting Barça in exclusive) will start today to receive, in a symbolic manner (as you were the first symbolism from football) , the first of a serie of baths of humility. Body cares that you really need in despite you dont even notice. Being more precise I predict the awesome sportman called Pepe would play a relevant role on it by stopping on his own force the petite homunculi with you use to populate your midfield.

Comte Arnau
04-20-2011, 05:21 PM
The whole Catalonia (tending fastly to supporting Barça in exclusive) will start today to receive, in a symbolic manner (as you were the first symbolism from football) , the first of a serie of baths of humility. Body cares that you really need in despite you dont even notice. Being more precise I predict the awesome sportman called Pepe would play a relevant role on it by stopping on his own force the petite homunculi with you use to populate your midfield.

Hahaha. So you agree with octopus Iker's prediction? :p

My prediction is 3-1 for Barça. The Bourbons robbed our Liberties but we'll rob their Cup once again. :cool:

Gaztelu
04-20-2011, 05:26 PM
Since both teams are filled with foreigners, this cup no longer means anythng.

Comte Arnau
04-20-2011, 05:30 PM
Since both teams are filled with foreigners, this cup no longer means anythng.

Lol. At least most of the important ones in Barça are from la Masia. Symbolism in this case trascends the players.

But I admit I've always liked Athletic Bilbao precisely for their non-foreigner policy. Admirable when you consider they're the only team -apart from Barça and Madrid- which has always played in the First division.

Gaztelu
04-20-2011, 05:33 PM
Lol. At least most of the important ones in Barça are from la Masia. Symbolism in this case trascends the players.

But I admit I've always liked Athletic Bilbao precisely for their non-foreigner policy. Admirable when you consider they're the only team -apart from Barça and Madrid- which has always played in the First division.

Unfortunately, some Africans have crept their way onto the youth teams. Although, you are right. The most important players (In Barcelona) are Catalonian. Hopefully, it will remain that way.

Comte Arnau
04-20-2011, 05:39 PM
I know and hope so too. But even them will be heavily indoctrinated, you know. :D

Just like everyone who's been at Barça. Even Figo.

Or Mourinho: 'Today, tomorrow and forever, Barça in my heart!' :D

I88VYnpJUR0

antonio
04-20-2011, 05:53 PM
Lol. At least most of the important ones in Barça are from la Masia. Symbolism in this case trascends the players.

La Masia is just a nice facade. Moreover, some of the suposedly born-there myths came already as relevant players (just check out Messi previous videos). Maybe marketing dep should reinforce the idea of phony autenticity by resorting to a more up with the times and accurate name: the Messia. Ha,ha,ha!




But I admit I've always liked Athletic Bilbao precisely for their non-foreigner policy. Admirable when you consider they're the only team -apart from Barça and Madrid- which has always played in the First division.

I've certain simpathies for Real Madrid (reinforced specially along last decade) but they dont prevent myself from sharing your opinion about Athletic...and my mum told me she was once a fan too, on the ancient time when ETA was just a wild dream, and Athletic a direct rival of Madrid and Barça.

Anycase, be prepared for the worst, Count. Cause it could be a long and though night for your interests. :D

Comte Arnau
04-20-2011, 06:03 PM
La Masia is just a nice facade. Moreover, some of the suposedly born-there myths came already as relevant players (just check out Messi previous videos). Maybe marketing dep should reinforce the idea of phony autenticity by resorting to a more up with the times and accurate name: the Messia. Ha,ha,ha!

Bah, mere envy because the Madrid junior academy simply sucks. :tongue


I've certain simpathies for Real Madrid (reinforced specially along last decade) but they dont prevent myself from sharing your opinion about Athletic...and my mum told me she was once a fan too, on the ancient time when ETA was just a wild dream, and Athletic a direct rival of Madrid and Barça.

Nothing wrong with that. I have sympathies for some teams more than for others, even if I only have got one in my heart.

I can even understand that one has friends supporters from the other team. But not on the very same day! Rivalry should be stronger than that, what do pussy pics like this one mean??!!! :mad: Fuck fake coleguismo! :D
http://estaticos02.marca.com/albumes/2011/04/19/previafinalcopa/1303295831_extras_albumes_0.jpg


Anycase, be prepared for the worst, Count. Cause it could be a long and though night for your interests. :D

Let's see it. Do you want a high five? :thumb001:

Comte Arnau
04-20-2011, 06:07 PM
Btw, didn't know they're going to put the Spanish anthem at the highest level of decibels possible, so that whistles can't be heard. The same level of decibels of a plane taking off!!! So scared you are of the whistle power? :laugh:

antonio
04-20-2011, 06:25 PM
Btw, didn't know they're going to put the Spanish anthem at the highest level of decibels possible, so that whistles can't be heard. The same level of decibels of a plane taking off!!! So scared you are of the whistle power? :laugh:

In fact i dont care a shit about that. Moreover I find current year "solution" as shameful as the blatant censure of last one. In my opinion, sport public has a sacred right to freedom of speech (including of course, racism chants) as we, as TV viewers, have the sacred right of being informed, and public reactions are part of that information.

Amapola
04-20-2011, 06:53 PM
Thousands of Spanish fans of Barcelona would not necessarily see this as a Catalonia versus Spain. Catalonian separatists seem to want to grasp absolutely anything to attrack attention. ;)

Amapola
04-20-2011, 06:59 PM
On the other hand, if you don't want anthem: TWO CUPS :D Absolutely amazing. I am not a big fan of football but only to hear our anthem so LOUD, I will watch the begining :D

Lábaru
04-20-2011, 08:03 PM
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsesi%C3%B3n_%28sentimiento%29

Turkophagos
04-20-2011, 10:22 PM
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t72/ibleedorangeblood/portugal%20trg/portugal/cry.png



Are you catalan wimps gonna accuse Franco again for losing a tournament for the zillionth time? :p

antonio
04-20-2011, 11:18 PM
Are you catalan wimps gonna accuse Franco again for losing a tournament for the zillionth time? :p

Indeed I would be nice to get Franco included in the congratulations list. :D


Thousands of Spanish fans of Barcelona would not necessarily see this as a Catalonia versus Spain. Catalonian separatists seem to want to grasp absolutely anything to attrack attention.

But the correlation is growing as time runs. Nowadays every Catalan nationalist assumes the lemma telling "FCB is more than a club" and acts consequently. In general many elections in life get more and more polarized and attached to others so clusterizing societies is facilitated as the subsequent control provided. :cool:

Ps. And I'm more polarized accordingly. Congratulations, Mourchois, you would be a great Spanish patriot. :thumb001::D

Ps2. And what a peaceful night today...revealing clearly what club is the owner of the hearts of all the morons of this fucking town, just by remembering passed celebration days, so annoying.

Lábaru
04-20-2011, 11:23 PM
Holy Week the Madrid win with goal of Cristiano with a ball assisted by Di Maria.

Falkata
04-20-2011, 11:28 PM
U. Although, you are right. The most important players (In Barcelona) are Catalonian.

Aren´t Messi, Iniesta or Villa important for Barcelona? :confused:

Lábaru
04-20-2011, 11:31 PM
Aren´t Messi, Iniesta or Villa important for Barcelona? :confused:

He is a Panchito, don´t know a shit about Spain, compréndelo.

Comte Arnau
04-20-2011, 11:34 PM
Are you catalan wimps gonna accuse Franco again for losing a tournament for the zillionth time? :p

Are you olive niggers ever gonna take care about your ruinous country?



Ps2. And what a peaceful night today...revealing clearly what club is the owner of the hearts of all the morons of this fucking town, just by remembering passed celebration days, so annoying.

Enjoy your Bourbon cup because the two important competitions are ours.

Gaztelu
04-20-2011, 11:45 PM
Aren´t Messi, Iniesta or Villa important for Barcelona? :confused:

Yes, they are. However, I was talking about Catalonian players.

antonio
04-20-2011, 11:53 PM
Enjoy your Bourbon cup because the two important competitions are ours.

On the greatest one you're still facing what Beatles and Queipo de Llano would define as a largo y prieto road.:D

Ps. Anycase you had tonight collided the ultimate iceberg, just a matter of time night comes stepping in.:D

Comte Arnau
04-21-2011, 12:01 AM
Fortunately the matches are in the next weeks. We'll see if it was just a slip or the beginning of the end of a cycle.

Amapola
04-21-2011, 09:13 AM
Indeed I would be nice to get Franco included in the congratulations list. :D



But the correlation is growing as time runs. Nowadays every Catalan nationalist assumes the lemma telling "FCB is more than a club" and acts consequently. In general many elections in life get more and more polarized and attached to others so clusterizing societies is facilitated as the subsequent control provided. :cool:

Ps. And I'm more polarized accordingly. Congratulations, Mourchois, you would be a great Spanish patriot. :thumb001::D

Ps2. And what a peaceful night today...revealing clearly what club is the owner of the hearts of all the morons of this fucking town, just by remembering passed celebration days, so annoying.

Indeed! Some friends of mine look the other side when they are told what "more than a club" motto means :cool: but I suspect that given the general trend that FCB is adopting regarding "politics" in Spain, more and more Spanish culés will end up feeling "que les están tocando los cojones".

Anyway! this victory was very important for Real Madrid, winning this title after 18 years AGAISNT Barcelona is simply too much!

The fact that our Conde is so angry is more than simple sport... but also the proud arrogance that many culés have these days that their team CAN'T loose. :eek:

Amapola
04-21-2011, 09:20 AM
Are you olive niggers ever gonna take care about your ruinous country?

Oh la la! another proud display of fake Catalan arrogance :D Before saying such things, tell those olive niggers that the Generalidad de Cataluña only has money to pay personal salaries for this summer and ONLY that and that's why it's going to relase 2.000 milions in bonds amongst their individuals. :rolleyes:

Comte Arnau
04-21-2011, 01:56 PM
Oh la la! another proud display of fake Catalan arrogance :D

Well, in this you're right for the first time. But it was not arrogance, just anger. A moment of anger I regret that made me go down to Chimo's level. I apologize.


Anyway, since Real didn't really deserve the Cup either, it ended up in the best place possible: smashed by the bus after having fallen from the hands of stupid Sergio Ramos. :clap2:

aFCKp0TOoRw

Falkata
04-21-2011, 01:59 PM
I´m glad Sergio Ramos was the one who destroyed the cup.
The guy is a total retard and he deserved it :D

Comte Arnau
04-21-2011, 02:06 PM
The guy is a total retard

5Vag2jndWzQ

:D

Lábaru
04-21-2011, 02:12 PM
http://www.madridiario.es/madridiario/madrid/deporte/pieza/510x382_1278673581_portada.jpg

Comte Arnau
04-21-2011, 02:15 PM
http://www.madridiario.es/madridiario/madrid/deporte/pieza/510x382_1278673581_portada.jpg

Enjoy the Copa del Ayuntamiento de Madrid, as it was first known. We'll see what happens with the real deal.

Lábaru
04-21-2011, 02:24 PM
Enjoy the Copa del Ayuntamiento de Madrid, as it was first known. We'll see what happens with the real deal.

http://www.rtve.es/imagenes/real-madrid-vuelve-ser-rey/1303348557783.jpg

gAzvesPne9Y

antonio
04-21-2011, 02:25 PM
Maybe all you are grossly overestimating Ramos imbecility for a mere accident. I would not say that Iniesta, Xavi or Messi, for example, are wiser than Sergio R. Moreover, as M would know better than a straight man like me, he's big time more attractive than your peloteros. So, please, dont let rage prevailed over straight evidence! :D

Falkata
04-21-2011, 02:27 PM
5Vag2jndWzQ

:D


R0Dkizs2tGs

Comte Arnau
04-21-2011, 02:30 PM
Maybe all you are grossly overestimating Ramos imbecility for a mere accident. I would not say that Iniesta, Xavi or Messi, for example, are wiser than Sergio R.

None of them are lumbreras. But Ramos is at another level and he's proven it many times before. The Cup accident is just the guinda of the cake. :p

Matritensis
04-21-2011, 02:42 PM
Lol,how come this is "Catalonia vs Spain"? This is just Madrid vs Barcelona.There are many more teams in the rest of Spain and in Catalonia.Or am I missing something? Would a match between the Reial Club Deportiu Espanyol de Barcelona and Real Zaragoza be also "Spain vs Catalonia"? Why everything has to be politicized these days?

Ibericus
04-21-2011, 02:43 PM
The only real spanish team is Bilbao, with most of it's players being spanish.

Comte Arnau
04-21-2011, 02:46 PM
Lol,how come this is "Catalonia vs Spain"? This is just Madrid vs Barcelona.There are many more teams in the rest of Spain and in Catalonia.Or am I missing something? Would a match between the Reial Club Deportiu Espanyol de Barcelona and Real Zaragoza be also "Spain vs Catalonia"? Why everything has to be politicized these days?

These days? This has been so since the very origin of both clubs. And fortunately so, otherwise the Clasico wouldn't have the importance it has.

I can understand that many Spaniards want to see it as just a match between two clubs. It's a way of taking the statu quo for granted. But you can't help it, it's something else. If Madridians thought like you, they wouldn't wave so many Spanish flags, but only flags of the club or the Community. ;)

Comte Arnau
04-21-2011, 02:47 PM
The only real spanish team is Bilbao, with most of it's players being spanish.

Such as Lizarazu.

Lábaru
04-21-2011, 02:53 PM
Lol,how come this is "Catalonia vs Spain"? This is just Madrid vs Barcelona.There are many more teams in the rest of Spain and in Catalonia.Or am I missing something? Would a match between the Reial Club Deportiu Espanyol de Barcelona and Real Zaragoza be also "Spain vs Catalonia"? Why everything has to be politicized these days?

Matritensis, esta lucha es continua desde los Celtas Vs Iberos, si no lo crees lee mi firma.

Ibericus
04-21-2011, 02:55 PM
Such as Lizarazu.
He was French of basque descend.

Comte Arnau
04-21-2011, 03:09 PM
He was French of basque descend.

So not Spanish for people who believe in nation-states, right? ;)


Matritensis, esta lucha es continua desde los Celtas Vs Iberos, si no lo crees lee mi firma.

A ti, como a Ramos, te hace falta leer las cosas más de tres veces para entenderlas.

Falkata
04-21-2011, 03:15 PM
Football nowadays is a worlwide business and there are more supporters of Real Madrid and Barcelona outside their cities than in them

Adebayor doesn´t know who is Franco and Keita can´t care less about the Aragon Crown

Ibericus
04-21-2011, 03:19 PM
So not Spanish for people who believe in nation-states, right? ;)
.
Hey, I wouldn't mind incorporating the french basque country, more land for Spain :coffee:

Lábaru
04-21-2011, 03:19 PM
A ti, como a Ramos, te hace falta leer las cosas más de tres veces para entenderlas.

Oye ¿y antes de los Celtas había paz?

Gaztelu
04-21-2011, 03:21 PM
Oye ¿y antes de los Celtas había paz?

Había paz entre los aquitanos y los iberos, ¿no?

Comte Arnau
04-21-2011, 03:26 PM
Hey, I wouldn't mind incorporating the french basque country, more land for Spain :coffee:

Sure. The fact is that all Spaniards claim for Gibraltar, but none claims for Northern Catalonia or Iparralde... Why is it so? Lemme think... :mmmm:

Falkata
04-21-2011, 04:34 PM
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/2900/retrasovert.jpg

antonio
04-21-2011, 05:02 PM
Lol,how come this is "Catalonia vs Spain"? This is just Madrid vs Barcelona.There are many more teams in the rest of Spain and in Catalonia.Or am I missing something? Would a match between the Reial Club Deportiu Espanyol de Barcelona and Real Zaragoza be also "Spain vs Catalonia"? Why everything has to be politicized these days?

Although I probably will die as a wise aficionado, for me football is boring to the point that I dont recall any recent Saturday's 10pm League match (among the ones i decide to watch) that I have not end falling asleep. So, at least for me, everything spicying up a bit the spectacle is wellcome to keep my interest alive: as a long term aficionado it would be really traumatical ending up with no interest at all. :D

antonio
04-21-2011, 05:06 PM
Había paz entre los aquitanos y los iberos, ¿no?

No entiendo el sentido de tu frase pues los aquitanos eran también uno de los distintos subgrupos iberos. Otra cosa es que se llevaran bien todos con todos. En la Gallaecia, ya indoeuropea, estaban en continuo conflicto unos castros con otros.

Comte Arnau
04-21-2011, 05:53 PM
No entiendo el sentido de tu frase pues los aquitanos eran también uno de los distintos subgrupos iberos.

¿Das por sentada la hipótesis vascoiberista? I support the Basco-Iberianist hypothesis too, but let's remember this is still a hypothesis. Basco-Aquitanians and Iberians could have been just distantly related.

antonio
04-21-2011, 06:26 PM
¿Das por sentada la hipótesis vascoiberista? I support the Basco-Iberianist hypothesis too, but let's remember this is still a hypothesis. Basco-Aquitanians and Iberians could have been just distantly related.

Not exactly. Just talking about Iberians in a very inclusive way: it would be counterintuitive to suppose that all the tribes along Iberia before Iron age had not sharing way more things in common (both cultural and ethnical) than post Iron age ones. In fact, Protobasques, is well know spawned all Pirinees at both sides, and Aquitania northwards and some Meseta southwards, and a undetermined range of Cantabric lands (although probably reaching current Galicia), etc, etc...on the other side, at Mediterranean, there were at least two different Iberian groups, the Northern one, or maybe the Protobasque one, ascending by Leon Gulf for what is not Costa Azul, related also with PreLatin Italics, etc...

Maybe, Im going to far, but I feel is a somewhat accurate picture.

Comte Arnau
04-21-2011, 06:45 PM
Not exactly. Just talking about Iberians in a very inclusive way: it would be counterintuitive to suppose that all the tribes along Iberia before Iron age had not sharing way more things in common (both cultural and ethnical) than post Iron age ones. In fact, Protobasques, is well know spawned all Pirinees at both sides, and Aquitania northwards and some Meseta southwards, and a undetermined range of Cantabric lands (although probably reaching current Galicia), etc, etc...on the other side, at Mediterranean, there were at least two different Iberian groups, the Northern one, or maybe the Protobasque one, ascending by Leon Gulf for what is not Costa Azul, related also with PreLatin Italics, etc...

Maybe, Im going to far, but I feel is a somewhat accurate picture.

If Iberians and Protobasques (Aquitanians) were related, Protobasque would be useful to translate the Iberian inscriptions. So far the only thing that is sure is some kind of relationship, which could either be two groups of the same family tree -so distantly related- or a big influence of one upon the other due to a common geographical space but not necessarily related groups (Sprachbund). Better to reserve the term Iberians to the historical Iberians to avoid confusions.

That could be stuff for an interesting topic, though.

--

Not to derail the thread, here you have a little sample of what international press says about Ramos. :D

Frankfurter Allgemeine:
Gut, dass Sergio Ramos nicht der Torwart ist <- Luckily Sergio Ramos is not the goalkeeper.

Le Figaro:
Le bus du Real Madrid a roulé sur la Coupe du Roi, que Sergio Ramos a malencontreusement laissé tomber.

The Washington Post:
Real Madrid finds something new to throw under the bus.
Poor Sergio Ramos. Unaccustomed to using his hands, the Copa del Rey trophy slipped from his grasp during Real Madrid’s parade after its victory over Barcelona and landed under the bus, traditionally the landing spot for coaches and teammates. :p

Gaztelu
04-21-2011, 09:27 PM
No entiendo el sentido de tu frase pues los aquitanos eran también uno de los distintos subgrupos iberos. Otra cosa es que se llevaran bien todos con todos. En la Gallaecia, ya indoeuropea, estaban en continuo conflicto unos castros con otros.

Hablo de la civilizacion ibera ide la Iberia oriental.

Comte Arnau
04-24-2011, 07:13 PM
:D

p9LLGfFaHEI

Kosovo je Sjrbia
04-24-2011, 07:20 PM
i like Catalunya