Who is lighter on average Spaniards or Bulgarians?

[Pribislav]

Which nations has higher % of people with light hair, light eyes and pale skin?

[pelikarski]

What do you say complexed Serb?

[Carpatz]

Bulgars.

[alnortedelsur]

About the same, I think.

[Papastratosels26]

Bulgarians.

Στάλθηκε από το G3311 μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

[cyberlorian]

Bulgarians.

[CommonSense]

Similar

[pelikarski]

.........

[Jana]

Similar, both are lighter than stereotyped.

[Mingle]

Bulgars.

[pelikarski]

Similar, both are lighter than stereotyped.

I have nothing against Serbs but this complexed shit spreads BS against Bulgarians, claiming coastal Bulgarians are like Greeks and Turks.
Bulgarians are not darker than most Yugoslavs, I have been to Belgrade a few times and have seen plenty of swarthy Serbs, just like swarthy Bulgars exist, I am not ashamed to admit it.

[pelikarski]

Similar

If you want we can compare pics of pages "Humans of Belgrade" and "people of Sofia" to see how many times Serbs are lighter :)

[pelikarski]

Bulgars.

How did you come to that conclusion pashtun gyppo?
Spaniards are a bit fairer

[Mingle]

How did you come to that conclusion pashtun gyppo?
Spaniards are a bit fairer

It was just my impression. What's your issue? Did I say something bad about your people that caused you to be so butthurt? Others also stated the same as me on the first page.

[щрбл]

This is strongly offensive, although we could be broskis in swarthness. Now quit the bickering and embrace the brown love.

:rolleyes:

[Cristiano viejo]

According the Serbian OP, it is Spaniards

https://i.imgur.com/T5KuEXF.png

[Aspirin]

Bulgarians of course.

[alnortedelsur]

Bulgarians of course.

Why are you so sure?

I think you believe too much in Hollywood stereotypes.

[pelikarski]

Why are you so sure?

I think you believe too much in Hollywood stereotypes.

I respect all Southern European nations and would never say a bad word about them, but Bulgarians also have pretty swarthy reputation, maybe due to the fact we border Turkey.

[Aspirin]

Why are you so sure?

I think you believe too much in Hollywood stereotypes.

I believe in my own eyes.

[Cristiano viejo]

I believe in my own eyes.

Same happens to me, specially when I was in Romania and saw dark people everywhere.

[alnortedelsur]

I believe in my own eyes.

But you need to see real Spaniards, not Hollywood depictions :thumb001:

[Aspirin]

Same happens to me, specially when I was in Romania and saw dark people everywhere.

Maybe because many of them was gypsies. From my own experience, some of gypsy-romanian mixes looks iberian. I don't know why. :noidea:
https://static4.libertatea.ro/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/banica88.jpg
https://www.pepe.ro/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/pepe-te-cunosc-de-undeva-sezonul-10.jpg

[Cristiano viejo]

Maybe because many of them was gypsies. From my own experience, some of gypsy-romanian mixes looks iberian. I don't know why. :noidea:

I do know: because you are inventing it :D

Gypsies in Romania are very well integrated. You can see them working in restaurants, as bus drivers (in Bucharest; I was shocked seeing Gypsies in such jobs), etc. This does not happen in the rest of Europe.

No, boy, when I say I saw a lot of dark people in Romania I am referring to ethnic Romanians. If I counted Gypsies, then you would have to read that 60% of the Romanian population is dark :thumb001:

[Pribislav]

What do you say complexed Serb?

My inspiration for this thread is because Cristiano said on other thread that Spaniards are lighter than Bulgarians and Romanians.

I didn't vote, and I will not.

[Cristiano viejo]

My inspiration for this thread is because Cristiano said on other thread that Spaniards are lighter than Bulgarians and Romanians.

I didn't vote, and I will not.

No no, dont manipulate my words, I said exactly this:


That means nothing, and if it means something, then admit that Spaniards are lighter than Italians, Romanians, Bulgarians...

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?264114-Are-Italians-darker-than-Iberians-and-Greeks/page2


I start to think that Bulgarian user is right about you :rolleyes:

[Thot Whisperer]

Maybe because many of them was gypsies. From my own experience, some of gypsy-romanian mixes looks iberian. I don't know why. :noidea:
https://static4.libertatea.ro/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/banica88.jpg
https://www.pepe.ro/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/pepe-te-cunosc-de-undeva-sezonul-10.jpg

You can’t insult anyone when you look gypsy admixed yourself.

[Pribislav]

I start to think that Bulgarian user is right about you :rolleyes:

What?

After Spaniards vs. Greeks, why not Spaniards vs. Bulgarians https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?178088-Greeks-vs-Spaniards-who-are-lighter-and-who-looks-more-bordeline

[Ruggery]

Only a small percentage win the Bulgarians.

[Iloko]

Bulgarians

[Carpatz]

Students from Sofia:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?264028-Would-more-of-these-people-fit-in-Hungary-or-Greece

[Aspirin]

I do know: because you are inventing it :D

Gypsies in Romania are very well integrated. You can see them working in restaurants, as bus drivers (in Bucharest; I was shocked seeing Gypsies in such jobs), etc. This does not happen in the rest of Europe.

No, boy, when I say I saw a lot of dark people in Romania I am referring to ethnic Romanians. If I counted Gypsies, then you would have to read that 60% of the Romanian population is dark :thumb001:

What ethnic romanians? From what region? Only dark ones are in the South parts. If you whant to make a decent racial depiction of ALL Romania, then you need to go in all the regions from this country, not only in south and Bucharest area, this is not all Romania. Most of Transylvania, and Moldova are very light, and gypsies here are practically inexistent, especially in Moldova region. And even this dark romanians from the South, are more light skinned whan tipical spaniards.


You can’t insult anyone when you look gypsy admixed yourself.

LMAO. Where did I insult him? This guy Viejo insulted practically all european ethnicities, from french, brits, germans, scandinavians and italians, to easern europeans, balkanites and greeks.

Yes man, I have typical gypsy face. Why people don't mistake me with one of them, for me is a big mystery.
https://pp.userapi.com/c830401/v830401205/19abf9/HCmlQhZbNwk.jpg

[Token]

Based on genetic data, i'd say they are on the same level.

[MysteriousWays]

About same (perhaps Bulgarians by a tiny bit). People in both countries are "lighter" on average than as popularly portrayed.

[The Blade]

Similarities between Bulgarian and Spanish people:
- both have a strong Atlanto-Mediterranean strain
- both display a wide variety of looks from typically Southern to typically Northern ones
- both are more in the dolicho-mesocephalic spectrum compared to their brachier neighbours (West Balkanites and French respectively)
- both are lighter than portrayed by some
- both nations are among the less butthurt in terms of general behaviour both in reality and on this forum
My contribution to this thread ends with this statement. I'm not gonna vote.

[Yaglakar]

Definitely Bulgarians

[alnortedelsur]

What ethnic romanians? From what region? Only dark ones are in the South parts. If you whant to make a decent racial depiction of ALL Romania, then you need to go in all the regions from this country, not only in south and Bucharest area, this is not all Romania. Most of Transylvania, and Moldova are very light, and gypsies here are practically inexistent, especially in Moldova region. And even this dark romanians from the South, are more light skinned whan tipical spaniards.



LMAO. Where did I insult him? This guy Viejo insulted practically all european ethnicities, from french, brits, germans, scandinavians and italians, to easern europeans, balkanites and greeks.

Yes man, I have typical gypsy face. Why people don't mistake me with one of them, for me is a big mystery.


You're out of your mind if you think you're particularly light for Iberian standards, lmao.

[alnortedelsur]

Similarities between Bulgarian and Spanish people:
- both have a strong Atlanto-Mediterranean strain
- both display a wide variety of looks from typically Southern to typically Northern ones
- both are more in the dolicho-mesocephalic spectrum compared to their brachier neighbours (West Balkanites and French respectively)
- both are lighter than portrayed by some
- both nations are among the less butthurt in terms of general behaviour both in reality and on this forum
My contribution to this thread ends with this statement. I'm not gonna vote.

I won't vote either, because I also think they're more or less on par.

[Ruggery]

Similarities between Bulgarian and Spanish people:
- both have a strong Atlanto-Mediterranean strain
- both display a wide variety of looks from typically Southern to typically Northern ones
- both are more in the dolicho-mesocephalic spectrum compared to their brachier neighbours (West Balkanites and French respectively)
- both are lighter than portrayed by some
- both nations are among the less butthurt in terms of general behaviour both in reality and on this forum

My contribution to this thread ends with this statement. I'm not gonna vote.
How is that?

[The Blade]

How is that?
What is it that you don't understand? Northern phenotypes are found in both Spain and Bulgaria in good amounts even though Mediterraneans are more numerous.

[Hadouken]

Bulgarians I think

[Kaspias]

Bulgarians.

[Cristiano viejo]

What ethnic romanians? From what region? Only dark ones are in the South parts. If you whant to make a decent racial depiction of ALL Romania, then you need to go in all the regions from this country, not only in south and Bucharest area, this is not all Romania. Most of Transylvania, and Moldova are very light, and gypsies here are practically inexistent, especially in Moldova region.
Dont make me laugh, "only dark ones in the south parts", hahahaha. Boy, we were in Transilvania too, in fact that region was where passed the most of the time :D

"Gypsies practically inexistent"... :lmao:laugh2::dielaughing::smilie_auslachen::smili e_auslachen::smilie_auslachen: oh boy, I would have wished with all my forces, believe me :lmao

And hey, it would better for the reputation of Romanians that there are tons of Gypsies in Transilvania... If not, that would mean Romanians are really really really dark :thumb001:


And even this dark romanians from the South, are more light skinned whan tipical spaniards.
When you say these stupidities, do you believe really what you say? :D

For your disgrace Spaniards know very well how Romanians look (we also have a disgrace: 700.000 of you live in Spain). I have known a lot of them: from Transilvania, from Moldavia and from Vallachia. ETHNIC ROMANIANS ALL OF THEM. All of them talking shit of Gypsies. Some of them talking shit of Bucharest :rolleyes: MOST OF THEM QUITE DARK, some really dark, bordering the Gypsy-looking.

So dont try to deceive me, not to me. I know very well Romanians and plus I have been in the own Romania, baby :thumb001:

[Ayetooey]

Bulgars.

[arkas]

The Bulgarian average is lighter but I think there could be individual Spanish that are lighter.

[Thambi]

bulgarians

[Aspirin]

Dont make me laugh, "only dark ones in the south parts", hahahaha. Boy, we were in Transilvania too, in fact that region was where passed the most of the time :D

"Gypsies practically inexistent"... :lmao:laugh2::dielaughing::smilie_auslachen::smili e_auslachen::smilie_auslachen: oh boy, I would have wished with all my forces, believe me :lmao

And hey, it would better for the reputation of Romanians that there are tons of Gypsies in Transilvania... If not, that would mean Romanians are really really really dark :thumb001:


When you say these stupidities, do you believe really what you say? :D

For your disgrace Spaniards know very well how Romanians look (we also have a disgrace: 700.000 of you live in Spain). I have known a lot of them: from Transilvania, from Moldavia and from Vallachia. ETHNIC ROMANIANS ALL OF THEM. All of them talking shit of Gypsies. Some of them talking shit of Bucharest :rolleyes: MOST OF THEM QUITE DARK, some really dark, bordering the Gypsy-looking.

First, I am not romanian, second, I dont live in Romania, and dont have romanian citizenship. If judging by my own people where I live, you here maybe will pass as an arab, or maybe as a mixed person with gypsy? Who knows. Give me a pic with you to see. I find this very strange, when a brown person from european periferic region, want so much to insult and portrait white people in the most bad way. Some of spaniards I meet was dark, thats all, if you dont like it, its not my problem, this is my own experience.

This video is from my own town, from were I now write. Most of people here are from my own town and villages around him. This type of faces I see every fucking day. Most of them easy will pass in many Central European countries, in Eastern European ones, and even some of them will pass much norther. I doubt what someone on this forum will find this people dark, nigga, many of them dont look even south europeans unlike you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOCZaFJ0ZCc


So dont try to deceive me, not to me. I know very well Romanians and plus I have been in the own Romania, baby :thumb001:

I doubt what you know Romania very well since you was only in a small part of this country. I doubt what you know about my own country, I doubt if you even know where she is located. And I doubt what you know romanians, for me is enough what you dont know your own history.

[jerney]

I was going to say Spaniards, but to be honest the majority of the Bulgarians I've seen are probably gypsy, so not exactly a far comparison

[Ruggery]

bump

[Ruggery]

What is it that you don't understand? Northern phenotypes are found in both Spain and Bulgaria in good amounts even though Mediterraneans are more numerous.

By northern phenotypes do you mean the Nordics?

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

person from european periferic region

Spain is a periferic region :confused: I wonder what Moldova is then.

[The Blade]

By northern phenotypes do you mean the Nordics?
As simple as that:
Northern phenotypes of Aurignacid and Cromagnid stock (Nordid varieties, Faelids, Borrebies, etc.) exist in Bulgaria and Spain.

[Cristiano viejo]

First, I am not romanian, second, I dont live in Romania, and dont have romanian citizenship. If judging by my own people where I live, you here maybe will pass as an arab, or maybe as a mixed person with gypsy?
Funny that a pseudo-Romanian calls me Gypsy :cool:


Who knows. Give me a pic with you to see.
You dont need it. I am the typical Spaniard. Like me there are millions.


I find this very strange, when a brown person from european periferic region, want so much to insult and portrait white people in the most bad way. Some of spaniards I meet was dark, thats all, if you dont like it, its not my problem, this is my own experience.
REAL LIFE IS EVEN MORE STRANGE: 700.000 BROWN PERSONS FROM EUROPEAN PERIFERIC REGIONS COMING TO LIVE TO SPAIN.


This video is from my own town, from were I now write. Most of people here are from my own town and villages around him. This type of faces I see every fucking day. Most of them easy will pass in many Central European countries, in Eastern European ones, and even some of them will pass much norther. I doubt what someone on this forum will find this people dark, nigga, many of them dont look even south europeans unlike you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOCZaFJ0ZCc

Oh baby, this video summarizes it all: and these are the supposed super light people, and of course ligther than Spaniards?? :lol:
Well, this discussion is not serious :coffee:


Spain is a periferic region :confused: I wonder what Moldova is then.

:laugh:

[Anglojew]

One of the blondest guys I've ever seen was Bulgarian. He was basically Albino.

[Mingle]

Spain is a periferic region :confused: I wonder what Moldova is then.

In what sense is Moldova peripheral?

Geographically? Their northern neighbors are Ukraine, who themselves aren't peripheral. The distance between Moldova and the Urals is massive. Genetically? Moldovans are in the Central European cluster with Croats and Hungarians.

Spain has two territories in Africa and you can swim from mainland Spain to Africa. Then they have 15% North African on top of that (because of their location). Spain is still not the most peripheral European country though. And to be fair, Moldovans also have a small bit of East Eurasian too, but its less than 5%.

[Zroota]

Not exactly sure, but I gotta say that Bulgarians and Romanians are whitewashed too much here, especially when compared to Spaniards and Italians.

I've personally seen a lot olive or tanned Bulgarians and Romanians. Just as much as Spaniards and Italians with such feature. But usually, in here, the former two ethnic groups are Nordified compared to the latter ones. Honestly, their pigmentation differences aren't really that great. :confused:

[Zzzzz]

One of the blondest guys I've ever seen was Bulgarian. He was basically Albino.

Very interesting, Im Bulgarian and Ive never seen such a person. When I was a kid there was a very pale boy, but his mother was Russian.

But as avarage, Bulgarians are lighter than Spaniards.

[Aspirin]

You dont need it. I am the typical Spaniard. Like me there are millions.

Why? Because you are brown?


REAL LIFE IS EVEN MORE STRANGE: 700.000 BROWN PERSONS FROM EUROPEAN PERIFERIC REGIONS COMING TO LIVE TO SPAIN.

Needs more.



Oh baby, this video summarizes it all: and these are the supposed super light people, and of course ligther than Spaniards?? :lol:
Well, this discussion is not serious :coffee:

Everybody knows what typical spaniard is a Hallstatt Nordid mixed with Dalofaelid. Only one who want to corrupt the beautiful spanish aryan race, and want to portrait only in the bad way, are dem muthafukin eastern europeanz. Especially those brown niggas gypsy moldavians.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

In what sense is Moldova peripheral?

Geographically? Their northern neighbors are Ukraine, who themselves aren't peripheral. The distance between Moldova and the Urals is massive. Genetically? Moldovans are in the Central European cluster with Croats and Hungarians.

Spain has two territories in Africa and you can swim from mainland Spain to Africa. Then they have 15% North African on top of that (because of their location). Spain is still not the most peripheral European country though. And to be fair, Moldovans also have a small bit of East Eurasian too, but its less than 5%.

In every single sense. Moldova is one of the most peripheral nations in Europe, if not the most.

They do not plot with Central Europeans, they plot slightly northern of Romania on average but that depends on the individual. Unlike Iberians, they are not homogeneous. Moldovans ethnically are a melting pot of Romanians, Ukrainians, Russians and Turks.

Spain has two territories in Africa, the U.K. has one territory in Spain and France has territory in South America. What does that have to do with being "peripheral"? If anything it is the exact opposite.

Your projections on the North African genomes among Spaniards are completely wrong and over estimated.

[Jana]

Moldovans plot in between West Ukrainians and Romanians, just slightly eastern than both.
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15V4.png

I agree Mingle overestimated North African influence among Iberians, though. Some parts of Iberia barely have any, and in northwestern part where it peaks it's around 10 percent iirc.

[Carpatz]

Moldovans plot in between West Ukrainians and Romanians, just slightly eastern than both.

I agree Mingle overestimated North African influence among Iberians, though. Some parts of Iberia barely have any, and in northwestern part where it peaks it's around 10 percent iirc.

10% is a lot. Boiling down to calling the other side gypsy is expected from insecure Iberians.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/African-admixture.gif

[Mingle]

They do not plot with Central Europeans, they plot slightly northern of Romania on average but that depends on the individual.

Still not remotely close to peripheral.


Unlike Iberians, they are not homogeneous. Moldovans ethnically are a melting pot of Romanians, Ukrainians, Russians and Turks.

I'm referring to the Romanian/Romance ones.


Spain has two territories in Africa, the U.K. has one territory in Spain and France has territory in South America. What does that have to do with being "peripheral"? If anything it is the exact opposite.

Okay fine, ignore that part. Its still less than 10 miles away from Africa.


Your projections on the North African genomes among Spaniards are completely wrong and over estimated.

I just looked it up, and North African influence seems to be 8-10%. I think I got the 15% number from some GEDmatch results. So my mistake there.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Still not remotely close to peripheral.

It is extremely peripheral in every single European context. Give me a good reason on why the Republic of Moldova should be considered a primary nation in Europe whereas Spain would just be a peripheral nation.



I'm referring to the Romanian/Romance ones.


Ethnic Moldovans are likely heterogeneous as well and it is hard to draw the line on who is an ethnic Moldovan or not, a lot of them even use Russian as their first language in daily use.



Okay fine, ignore that part. Its still less than 10 miles away from Africa.

The strait of Gibraltar is but I don't see the point. The British Isles are way further than that from Continental Europe and are a sealocked territory. I guess they don't even qualify as Europeans.



I just looked it up, and North African influence seems to be 8-10%. I think I got the 15% number from some GEDmatch results. So my mistake there.

That's on the regions where it peaks because in reality it is lower. I am from Western Iberia and on K36 and Lukasz Reports I am realistically moulded as having 5% genomes from the North of Africa, not 15%. And I don't see how scoring 5% North African is detrimental to your "Europeaness" whereas in those regions there is people who score up to 30% West Asian. Both are non-European Caucasoid components. Scoring 5% East Asian as you were saying that Moldovans do (your words not mine, I don't know to be honest) is not Caucasian, it is Mongoloid.

[Cristiano viejo]

In what sense is Moldova peripheral?
In all. Geographically, culturally, economically.


Geographically? Their northern neighbors are Ukraine, who themselves aren't peripheral. The distance between Moldova and the Urals is massive. Genetically? Moldovans are in the Central European cluster with Croats and Hungarians.
Even peripheral countries have a neigbor :rolleyes: that means nothing.


Spain has two territories in Africa and you can swim from mainland Spain to Africa. Then they have 15% North African on top of that (because of their location). Spain is still not the most peripheral European country though. And to be fair, Moldovans also have a small bit of East Eurasian too, but its less than 5%.
No, you can not swim from Spain to Africa or viceversa (thanks God, if not the niggers would invade us just swimming :D), dont show such ignorance saying such things.

UK or France have territories in America, Asia and Oceania, what is your point saying Spain 2 territories in Africa? (really 3, dont forget the Canary Islands :D)

Moldova is probably the most unknown country in Europe along Albania and Kosovo (big deal), that also makes it peripheral. Zero tourism, nothing to see or enjoy, poverty, primitive society...


Not exactly sure, but I gotta say that Bulgarians and Romanians are whitewashed too much here, especially when compared to Spaniards and Italians.

I've personally seen a lot olive or tanned Bulgarians and Romanians. Just as much as Spaniards and Italians with such feature. But usually, in here, the former two ethnic groups are Nordified compared to the latter ones. Honestly, their pigmentation differences aren't really that great. :confused:
Indeed. People is very confused with countries like Romania. It is in Central Europe but their people look nothing like Central Europeans. Even Stersolina noticed this and spoke about in her thread about her travel there. Perhaps it is because she is anti-Romanian, has an agenda and blablabla :rolleyes:


Why? Because you are brown?
Why should I be brown? I am not Romanian
https://www.eldiario.es/politica/Miles-rumanos-protestan-Rumania-juridica_EDIIMA20180624_0476_4.jpg



Needs more.
To become a Third World country, very undeveloped and uncivilized? then yes :)


Everybody knows what typical spaniard is a Hallstatt Nordid mixed with Dalofaelid. Only one who want to corrupt the beautiful spanish aryan race, and want to portrait only in the bad way, are dem muthafukin eastern europeanz. Especially those brown niggas gypsy moldavians.
We dont need to be Nordids to have the same skin colour than most of Europeans. Your nordicism smells.

[Mingle]

It is extremely peripheral in every single European context. Give me a good reason on why the Republic of Moldova should be considered a primary nation in Europe whereas Spain would just be a peripheral nation.

Spain isn't really too peripheral, I was just saying it was compared to Moldova mainly because of geography. I also mentioned genetics since Spaniards have some foreign blood due to their geography, though I seemed to have overestimated that.


Scoring 5% East Asian as you were saying that Moldovans do (your words not mine, I don't know to be honest) is not Caucasian, it is Mongoloid.

I said "less than 5%", I wasn't sure of the exact numbers. I just looked it up and its 1.2%.


Moldova is probably the most unknown country in Europe along Albania and Kosovo (big deal), that also makes it peripheral. Zero tourism, nothing to see or enjoy, poverty, primitive society...

Okay I guess if that's how you measure peripheral. Its true Spain made much more contributions to European culture/civilization than Moldova did, but Moldova doesn't really have any non-European cultural influences which is why I didn't mention culture.

[alnortedelsur]

Why? Because you are brown?



Needs more.




Everybody knows what typical spaniard is a Hallstatt Nordid mixed with Dalofaelid. Only one who want to corrupt the beautiful spanish aryan race, and want to portrait only in the bad way, are dem muthafukin eastern europeanz. Especially those brown niggas gypsy moldavians.

So, now it comes that when Spaniards deny the stupid assumptions about them being particularly dark/swarthy and exotic for European standards, but rather claim to be well into the European norm by their overall pigmentation and phenotypes, they mean to be mostly Hallstatt Nordid, Dalofaelid or whatever Nordic/Scandinavian phenotype you wanna come up with?

That's the typical reasoning from an Internet clown retard.

[Tommie]

Not exactly sure, but I gotta say that Bulgarians and Romanians are whitewashed too much here, especially when compared to Spaniards and Italians.

I've personally seen a lot olive or tanned Bulgarians and Romanians. Just as much as Spaniards and Italians with such feature. But usually, in here, the former two ethnic groups are Nordified compared to the latter ones. Honestly, their pigmentation differences aren't really that great. :confused:
I disagree, it is just the opposite. People often darkwash these two groups from what I've seen, especially the Romanians. I'm not sure why would anyone think they get too whitewashed.

[silentkiller]

I think the Spaniards are culturally whiter, because:

1) Bulgarians are Slavs, but geopolitically they choose the side of Western Europe. There are a lot of anti-Russian Bulgarians on this forum. Serbs are bratushkas, Bulgarians - no.
2) Spaniards are honest with the Russians, if there is little in common between the Russians and the Spaniards, no one calls anyone brothers.
3) Spaniards created South America, and what did Bulgarians create?

I think the choice is obvious. I've not seen many Bulgarians neither Spaniards, it is difficult for me to judge who is whiter on the average by the phenotype.

[Aspirin]

Love how iberians gets butthurt from my words, and now they so badly trying to portrait my people like something non-european at all, like some kind of mongrels without anything european.

https://i.imgur.com/ji6qi2p.gif


Why should I be brown? I am not Romanian

Because you are a spaniard? :confused: Since you feel insecure about this question, then, maybe you really are.:D


https://www.eldiario.es/politica/Miles-rumanos-protestan-Rumania-juridica_EDIIMA20180624_0476_4.jpg

This pic is from South Romania where you can find many gypsies. Still, people in this pic are more whiter than spaniards. :noidea:
https://sportky.zoznam.sk/cacheImg/obr/1200px/real-madrid-fanusikovia-441723.jpg

[TheForeigner]

Lol what a trollfest here. Romanians and Bulgarians are similar in pigmentation, especially skin colour, with Iberians and Italians in my honest opinion.

[Cristiano viejo]

Love how iberians gets butthurt from my words, and now they so badly trying to portrait my people like something non-european at all, like some kind of mongrels without anything european.
It is you who got butthurt and started the "insults", so now dont play the role of the victim.


Because you are a spaniard? :confused: Since you feel insecure about this question, then, maybe you really are.:D
And since when Spaniards are brown?



This pic is from South Romania where you can find many gypsies. Still, people in this pic are more whiter than spaniards. :noidea:

hahaha :cool:

[Aspirin]

It is you who got butthurt and started the "insults", so now dont play the role of the victim.


And since when Spaniards are brown?



hahaha :cool:

LMAO. Since when I get butthurt? Nigga, all this insults for me means nothing, you can portrait moldavians and over eastern europeans how you want in your fantasy world, I only laugh at all this, because is very funny :D I never pretended what moldavians are super mega white, and we are something superior, we are very poor and backward eastern europeans, and I am not ashamed about that. Only you here scream about how spaniards are very advanced and superior towards other european nations, what I find this very weird.

Just look at you, you even not have any decent arguments against me, even your insults are very primitive, without any effect. Now your arguments are limited only to "hahaha", "hohoho" and "hihihi". Do you are so naive and idiot for not seen what I just intentionally provoking you? And every time, you, like a little naive fish, swallow the bait. :D I just love how you put so much emotions and pain in every your post, like a little girl who was offended.:D I personally have nothing against iberians, and i think what they are good and nice people.

And I don't understand why do you portrait and put your country on the same level with other Western European countries like France, UK, Germany, Netherlands and Italy. You are in the same boat with romanians, bulgarians, greeks, and other eastern europeans, the people what you hate the most, you are our nigga. For a country what in the past was a big and powerful Empire, it's a shame.

https://i2.wp.com/canalc.pt/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/2JunEUcontribsFINALweb-1-e1490355827653.jpg
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2d5666b6914fd166234dcb1dd3142dae
https://i.redd.it/p11njxjx102z.png
http://www.viewsoftheworld.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/EU2012_BudgetMoneyFlows.jpg
https://i.ylilauta.org/a8/66a2fc75.jpg
https://abwfh.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/goodbye-12-b-euros-170720.jpg
http://www.viewsoftheworld.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/EU_NetSharesChart.jpg
https://goldiraguide.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/EU-Contributions.jpg
http://cdn4.spiegel.de/images/image-1271167-640_panofree-dbjv-1271167.jpg
http://www.viewsoftheworld.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/MapsOfEurope2014.jpg

[Decius]

Bulgarians

[Jana]

Spaniards are not genetically more southern shifted as average Romanians and Bulgarians, and I highly doubt they are darker except in skin colour (unexposed skin should be similar), simply because Spain is much sunnier than Bulgaria except some northern parts.
I haven't been neither to Spain nor Bulgaria, but I've been to Transylvania and Romanians there were not lighter than native Northern Italians, with majority looking typical southeastern European. They were lighter than southern Italians though.
Spaniards are probably similar in coloring to North Italians and thus to Romanians/Bulgarians as well.

[Pandur]

Spaniards.

[Khamzat]

Bulgarians

[cyberlorian]

Spaniards are not more southern shifted as average Romanians and Bulgarians, and I highly doubt they are darker except in skin colour (unexposed skin should be similar), simply because Spain is much sunnier than Bulgaria except some northern parts.
I haven't been neither to Spain nor Bulgaria, but I've been to Transylvania and Romanians there were not lighter than native Northern Italians, with majority looking typical southeastern European. They were lighter than southern Italians though.
Spaniards are probably similar in coloring to North Italians and thus to Romanians/Bulgarians as well.

Spaniards are usually darker than Northern and Central Italians. I have been to those regions. Southern Italians might be usually darker than Spaniards.

[Jana]

Spaniards are usually darker than Northern and Central Italians. I have been to those regions. Southern Italians might be usually darker than Spaniards.

I think darkness of Spaniards is vastly exeggerated on TheApricity. They are most northern shifted southern Europeans if we speak about entire countries.
North Italians also are mostly brunet/southern population, they are darker than Croats and especially Slovenians for example. Only some fringe Alpine population are exception.
But they have many Central European types.

[cyberlorian]

I think darkness of Spaniards is vastly exeggerated on TheApricity. They are most northern shifted southern Europeans if we speak about entire countries.
North Italians also are mostly brunet/southern population, they are darker than Croats and especially Slovenians for example. Only some fringe Alpine population are exception.
But they have many Central European types.

Northern shift does not alwys mean lighter. For example, Amerindians are more Northern shifted than French but they are also darker than French average.

[Jana]

Northern shift does not alwys mean lighter. For example, Amerindians are more Northern shifted than French but they are also darker than French average.

It doesnt't, but looking at the photos of Spaniards posted around northern types doesn't seem rare at all.

[Pribislav]

It doesnt't, but looking at the photos of Spaniards posted around northern types doesn't seem rare at all.

Who is lighter on average in your opinion Spaniards or Romanians?

[Marmara]

Bulgaria is the country with highest Gypsy percentage. Excluding them, ethnic Bulgarians are lighter. They can often get very Northern/Slavic looking, they aren't entirely Thracian as people assume.

[Pribislav]

Bulgaria is the country with highest Gypsy percentage. Excluding them, ethnic Bulgarians are lighter. They can often get very Northern/Slavic looking, they aren't entirely Thracian as people assume.

Bulgarians are Thracians, and Serbs are Illyrians.

[Jana]

Who is lighter on average in your opinion Spaniards or Romanians?

Roughly similar in hair/eye colour. Romania has areas with higher concentration of lighter types in northern Transylvania and Moldova, while Spain has the same in Basque Country and Cantabria.

[Aspar]

About the same...
But threads such as this one are really dumb, especially because there is a strong variation in Bulgaria, not to mention Spain which is much bigger country!
For example, I've met a Spaniard from Madrid who could pass in North Africa like a glove, with curly dark hair, similar face features with Northern Africans etc.
But than again, I've also seen other Spaniards who were very blond with pale skin and wouldn't have been out of place in, let's say Germany!

[pelikarski]

Bulgaria is the country with highest Gypsy percentage. Excluding them, ethnic Bulgarians are lighter. They can often get very Northern/Slavic looking, they aren't entirely Thracian as people assume.

That's not true. Romania is. And a large chunk of the population is mixed Gypsy/Romanian.
I have been to Cluj and Timisioara and the natives there have the same pigmentation like Hungarians, maybe marginally darker

[cyberlorian]

It doesnt't, but looking at the photos of Spaniards posted around northern types doesn't seem rare at all.

Northern types such as Nordid, Faelid, Borreby, etc?

[Marmara]

That's not true. Romania is. And a large chunk of the population is mixed Gypsy/Romanian.
I have been to Cluj and Timisioara and the natives there have the same pigmentation like Hungarians, maybe marginally darker
Romania has the highest Gypsy population, but they are 20 million, Bulgaria has the highest gypsy percentage compared to total population.

[Jana]

Northern types such as Nordid, Faelid, Borreby, etc?

Keltic Nordics and North Atlantids mostly, some Brunns too.

[pelikarski]

Romania has the highest Gypsy population, but they are 20 million, Bulgaria has the highest gypsy percentage compared to total population.

Gypsies in Bulgaria multiplied several times after the fall of communism and they live somehow on the outskirts of society. Very rarely you can meet integrated Gypsies

[Pribislav]

Light Spaniards = British and German looking

Light Bulgarians = East Slavic looking


In most of cases.

[Kivan]

Bulgaria is the country with highest Gypsy percentage. Excluding them, ethnic Bulgarians are lighter. They can often get very Northern/Slavic looking, they aren't entirely Thracian as people assume.

But the question is only about ethnic Bulgarians, not the country as a whole. I didn't see need to bring gypsies to the subject.

[cyberlorian]

Keltic Nordics and North Atlantids mostly, some Brunns too.

Yes, they do exist but Spaniards are mostly Mediterranid.Italians are mostly Alpine Mediterranid, Dinaro Mediterranid or Alpine Dinarid.

[pelikarski]

Light Spaniards = British and German looking

Light Bulgarians = East Slavic looking


In most of cases.

Very few.
Light Bulgarians like light Serbs resemble Central Europeans more

[Jana]

This Spanish footballer who is playing for Croatian Champions Dinamo Zagreb is typical light Iberian look, and I don't think guys are him are rare in Spain.
https://tmssl.akamaized.net/images/portrait/originals/293385-1537950178.jpg
https://image.dnevnik.hr/media/images/768x432/Dec2017/61438872-dani-olmo.jpg
https://www.tportal.hr/media/thumbnail/w1000/519073.jpeg
https://narod.hr/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/H20170916012483.jpg

[Mingle]

Bulgarians are Thracians, and Serbs are Illyrians.

Not exactly. Eastern Serbia was probably mostly Illyrian whereas Eastern Serbia was mostly Thracian. As a whole, Serbia seemed to have been a bit more Thracian than Illyrian:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Paleo-Balkan_languages_in_Eastern_Europe_between_5th_and _1st_century_BC.png

The following map may not be entirely accurate:

http://i42.tinypic.com/ab71qt.jpg

[Grace O'Malley]

It is extremely peripheral in every single European context. Give me a good reason on why the Republic of Moldova should be considered a primary nation in Europe whereas Spain would just be a peripheral nation.





Ethnic Moldovans are likely heterogeneous as well and it is hard to draw the line on who is an ethnic Moldovan or not, a lot of them even use Russian as their first language in daily use.




The strait of Gibraltar is but I don't see the point. The British Isles are way further than that from Continental Europe and are a sealocked territory. I guess they don't even qualify as Europeans.




That's on the regions where it peaks because in reality it is lower. I am from Western Iberia and on K36 and Lukasz Reports I am realistically moulded as having 5% genomes from the North of Africa, not 15%. And I don't see how scoring 5% North African is detrimental to your "Europeaness" whereas in those regions there is people who score up to 30% West Asian. Both are non-European Caucasoid components. Scoring 5% East Asian as you were saying that Moldovans do (your words not mine, I don't know to be honest) is not Caucasian, it is Mongoloid.

I consider Ireland peripheral and I quite like that. The 3 European countries fully in the Western Hemisphere are Iceland, Ireland and Portugal. :) I think that's pretty cool.

[Mingle]

I consider Ireland peripheral and I quite like that. The 3 European countries fully in the Western Hemisphere are Iceland, Ireland and Portugal. :) I think that's pretty cool.

Its not really peripheral IMO if its not remotely close to any non-European country.

[Pribislav]

Not exactly. Eastern Serbia was probably mostly Illyrian whereas Eastern Serbia was mostly Thracian. As a whole, Serbia seemed to have been a bit more Thracian than Illyrian:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Paleo-Balkan_languages_in_Eastern_Europe_between_5th_and _1st_century_BC.png

The following map may not be entirely accurate:

http://i42.tinypic.com/ab71qt.jpg

Present day Serbia got borders in 1878, 1912 and 1918.

During the middle age Serbia was located more western than today.

Before 12th century eastern Serbia was what is now western Serbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Serbia_(medieval)#Višeslav,_Radosl av_and_Prosigoj_(circa_780-830)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=498&v=nXvn3vzk6Ik

Most of modern Serbs originated from Herzegovina in the last 500 years, and Herzegovina was inhabitet by Illyrians.

2/3 of Serbs in present day Serbia are imigrants from Herzegovina, Montenegro, Bosnia and Krajina in the last 300 years.

[Grace O'Malley]

Its not really peripheral IMO if its not remotely close to any non-European country.

I'm using it in the context of being a bit more isolated and also being on the periphery of Europe.

[Jana]

This map is highly speculative though, and drawn by Serbs ofcourse.

[Pribislav]

This map is highly speculative though, and drawn by Serbs ofcourse.

Sorry, but center of early Serbia were Zahumlje and Travunija (modern Herzegovina) with Med climate, not mountain region Raška with harsh winter and little fertile land.
Raška became center of Serbia and Serbian lands since 12th century.
Nemanjići originate from Herzegovina (according to one theory from Trebinje, and according to other from Drijeva on Neretva). Nemanjići moved to Raška and took power there.

[Mingle]

This map is highly speculative though, and drawn by Serbs ofcourse.

Its funny how the border between Celts and Dacians corresponds exactly with modern day political borders xD The Hungary-Romania-Serbia border region seems to be the most speculative part and the rest of the map looks quite good. So its a decent map overall I'd say.

Or were you talking about what Pribislav posted?

[Pribislav]

Its funny how the border between Celts and Dacians corresponds exactly with modern day political borders xD The Hungary-Romania-Serbia border region seems to be the most speculative part and the rest of the map looks quite good. So its a decent map overall I'd say.

Jana think that center of Serbia was Raška where exist places like where temperature in winter can drop below -30c https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pešter#Geography

[Jana]

Sorry, but center of early Serbia were Zahumlje and Travunija (modern Herzegovina) with Med climate, not mountain region Raška with harsh winter and little fertile land.
Raška became center of Serbia and Serbian lands since 12th century.
Nemanjići originate from Herzegovina (according to one theory from Trebinje, and according to other from Drijeva on Neretva). Nemanjići moved to Raška and took power there.

Can you give me any source that state that ? Any early Serbian archeological remains in the region from before 12th century ?

[Jana]

Its funny how the border between Celts and Dacians corresponds exactly with modern day political borders xD The Hungary-Romania-Serbia border region seems to be the most speculative part and the rest of the map looks quite good. So its a decent map overall I'd say.

Or were you talking about what Pribislav posted?

About his map. Highly speculative, especially Bosnia, which was originally super small region around Sarajevo and in their map Bosnia is almost as big as modern Bosnia which is BS!

[Pribislav]

Can you give me any source that state that ? Any early Serbian archeological remains in the region from before 12th century ?

Get lost with you imbecile theory than Serbs lived only in Sanžak in early middle age.

There is no graves of your king such as Tomislav, Zvonimir, Petar Svačič, Držislav... Are they realiy exist? I don't bealive that they ever exist until you show me their graves.

Graves of all Serbian rulers from Nemanjić dinasty and some other dinasties exist and their bodies are preservet very good.

Here is Serbian king Milutin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Milutin
Bulgarian stole his body in WW1.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PveQyh437j8

[Jana]

Serbs claim Bosnia because DAI mentions them living in Bosnia. But my darling, original Bosnia is just darkest pink in this map:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Medieval_Bosnian_State_Expansion-en.svg/941px-Medieval_Bosnian_State_Expansion-en.svg.png

So if you lived there it doesn't mean you settled most of modern BiH, LOL.

[Jana]

Get lost with you imbecile theory than Serbs lived only in Sanžak in early middle age.
There is no graves of your king such as Tomislav, Zvonimir, Petar Svačič, Držislav... Are they realiy exist? I don't bealive that they ever exist until you show me their graves.
Graves of all Serbian rulers from Nemanjić dinasty and some other dinasties exist and their bodies are preservet very good.

No need to be rude, there is tons of archeological evidence from Northern Dalmatia and Western Bosnia where Croatian Kingdom was founded, from Church remains, monuments and even early Croatian graveyards.
So, do you have anything similar for early Serbian state ? Do you have any early Serbian graveryards, churches or other acheological remains in Herzegovina older than 12th century ?

If you don't we have reasons to doubt this theory which is pushed by Serbs for political reasons.

BTW, Nemanjić dynasty lived centuries AFTER Croatian Kings. Where are bones of your early rulers, or they didn't exist ? :rolleyes:

[The Blade]

Not exactly sure, but I gotta say that Bulgarians and Romanians are whitewashed too much here, especially when compared to Spaniards and Italians.

I've personally seen a lot olive or tanned Bulgarians and Romanians. Just as much as Spaniards and Italians with such feature. But usually, in here, the former two ethnic groups are Nordified compared to the latter ones. Honestly, their pigmentation differences aren't really that great. :confused:
This part of your statement is absolutely incorrect. I can 100% tell you that on this forum Bulgarians are often darkwashed, sometimes even with very idiotic comparisons and lies (this was especially evident in the behaviour of trolls like Niko23 and Krivich and their multiple accounts - luckily they got banned). The case with Romanian people is similar.
Some do it because it suits their agenda while others judge on several immigrants they have seen (in many cases these are clear Gypsies).
I'm not saying Spanish and Portuguese people aren't darkwashed here, too. They certainly ARE DARKWASHED, too.
In the case of Italians I believe they have more often been nordified than swarthified actually. Probably 2000 Ctwentysevenj and user (whatevernumber he used as a part of his nick - he also called himself names like Sven and Helmut, I believe) threads with blond/blue-eyed Italians and brown-haired/tanned Iberians exist on this forum. Italians certainly have a wide variety of looks but I BELIEVE that some overrate their similarity to Germans or Austrians, for example.
In any case there are many folks who don't like it when Bulgarians/Romanians/Portuguese/Spanish don't fit their limited perceptions.
I don't care about them at all. I have made plenty of threads about my people. Here's one with Bulgarians from different regions of the state:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?238821-Bulgarians-from-throughout-the-country-where-do-they-fit

[Pribislav]

Serbs claim Bosnia because DAI mentions them living in Bosnia. But my darling, original Bosnia is just darkest pink in this map:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Medieval_Bosnian_State_Expansion-en.svg/941px-Medieval_Bosnian_State_Expansion-en.svg.png

So if you lived there it doesn't mean you settled most of modern BiH, LOL.

Read Porfirogenet, border between Serbia and Croatia in early middle age was in Vrbas and Cetina rivers.

Bosnia did not exist in early middle age. Bosnia was formed in 12th century as small territory around Sarajevo and in present day central Bosnia.
2/3 of present day Bosnia was part of Serbia in early middle age, and 1/3 was part of Croatia (Bosanska Krajina). Is this so hard to understand?

[Jana]

Read Porfirogenet, border between Serbia and Croatia in early middle age was in Vrbas and Cetina rivers.

Bosnia did not exist in early middle age. Bosnia was formed in 12th century as small territory around Sarajevo and in present day central Bosnia.
2/3 of present day Bosnia was part of Serbia in early middle age, and 1/3 was part of Croatia (Bosanska Krajina). Is this so hard to understand?

Please cite me part of DAI where he says Croatia bordered Serbia on Vrbas river.

[Pribislav]

Please cite me part of DAI where he says Croatia bordered Serbia on Vrbas river.

What is your problem Stears?

Whole world know that western Bosnia (aka Bosanska Krajina, aka "Turkish Croatia") was part pof Croatia until 1102. I don't deny that Bosnia west of Vrbas river was part of Croatia.
Whole worls also know that other parts of Bosnia were part of Serbia until 12th century when Bosnia was formed as separate state.

Here is charter of Bosnian ban Matej Ninoslav from mid of 13th century. His called inhabitants of Bosnia Serbs (срьблинь, срьблина) and inhabitants of Dubrovnik Vlachs (влаха). Marked with red color.

http://cafehome.tripod.com/slike/matej.gif

[Mingle]

Read Porfirogenet, border between Serbia and Croatia in early middle age was in Vrbas and Cetina rivers.

Bosnia did not exist in early middle age. Bosnia was formed in 12th century as small territory around Sarajevo and in present day central Bosnia.
2/3 of present day Bosnia was part of Serbia in early middle age, and 1/3 was part of Croatia (Bosanska Krajina). Is this so hard to understand?

This source (https://books.google.com/books?id=lVBB1a0rC70C&pg=PA627&dq=drina+river+border+catholicism+orthodoxy&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjKt7HCs5_eAhXFnOAKHRIwDEgQ6AEIKjAA#v=on epage&q&f=false) seems to be saying something similar to you:

https://i.imgur.com/KigMIQ6.png?1

[Jana]

This source (https://books.google.com/books?id=lVBB1a0rC70C&pg=PA627&dq=drina+river+border+catholicism+orthodoxy&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjKt7HCs5_eAhXFnOAKHRIwDEgQ6AEIKjAA#v=on epage&q&f=false) seems to be saying something similar to you:

https://i.imgur.com/KigMIQ6.png?1

It doesn't say anything about Serbian Lands streching western to Vrbas river, just that they lived in Drina river valley (Eastern Bosnia) and Eastern Herzegovina, which we already know.
Bosnia river is much more realistic border between the two in my opinion (and not only mine).
http://www.freeworldmaps.net/europe/bosnia/bosnia-map-physical.jpg
and in the south, Neretva.

[Mingle]

It doesn't say anything about Serbian Lands streching western to Vrbas river, just that they lived in Drina river valley (Eastern Bosnia) and Eastern Herzegovina, which we already know.
Bosnia river is much more realistic border between the two in my opinion (and not only mine).
http://www.freeworldmaps.net/europe/bosnia/bosnia-map-physical.jpg
and in the south, Neretva.Yeah, you're right. I skimmed too quickly. Since it says the northern part was Catholic and the eastern part was Orthodox, then the Bosna River would make more sense as the border (at least in the 1300's mentioned here).

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

[Pitsa]

Spaniards

[alex23]

Roughly similar in hair/eye colour. Romania has areas with higher concentration of lighter types in northern Transylvania and Moldova, while Spain has the same in Basque Country and Cantabria.

Basque Country+Cantabria=3,7million people from 46.4 million Spain's population

Moldova+Transilvania= 13million people from 20million Romania's population

[Jana]

Basque Country+Cantabria=3,7million people from 46.4 million Spain's population

Moldova+Transilvania= 13million people from 20million Romania's population

Southern Transylvania is not lighter than Wallachia.

[alex23]

Southern Transilvania is lighter than Wallachia. Wallachia is lighter than Spain.

[B01AB20]

The right cuestion would be who is more complexed about their looks...

So check the answers of users and draw conclusions.

Idiotic thread btw.

[Cristiano viejo]

Spaniards are not genetically more southern shifted as average Romanians and Bulgarians, and I highly doubt they are darker except in skin colour (unexposed skin should be similar), simply because Spain is much sunnier than Bulgaria except some northern parts.
I haven't been neither to Spain nor Bulgaria, but I've been to Transylvania and Romanians there were not lighter than native Northern Italians, with majority looking typical southeastern European. They were lighter than southern Italians though.
Spaniards are probably similar in coloring to North Italians and thus to Romanians/Bulgarians as well.
Thanks God there are witnesses of what I am saying :)


Spaniards are usually darker than Northern and Central Italians. I have been to those regions. Southern Italians might be usually darker than Spaniards.
You have been in Madrid, where curiously live more than 60.000 Romanians.
Madrid is a multicultural city and it is the proof of anything.


That's not true. Romania is. And a large chunk of the population is mixed Gypsy/Romanian.
This.


I have been to Cluj and Timisioara and the natives there have the same pigmentation like Hungarians, maybe marginally darker
I have been in Cluj Napoca too and I did not remember people there were specially light, to say the least.


Romania has the highest Gypsy population, but they are 20 million, Bulgaria has the highest gypsy percentage compared to total population.
This. Many Romanians in Spain, supposedly non-Gypsies, look as if they were a mix. I also noticed this in Romania. That is for some reason.


Southern Transilvania is lighter than Wallachia.
No, it is not.

Fortunately people who have been in Romania give me the reason and I can not be accused of having an agenda or whatever :cool:


Wallachia is lighter on average than Spain.
That is very difficult :rolleyes:

[Cristiano viejo]

Still not remotely close to peripheral.

Moldova is very peripheral
https://st2.depositphotos.com/4288663/6507/i/950/depositphotos_65079151-stock-photo-3d-map-of-europe-with.jpg

It is a country absolutely away of the European whatever. Nobody in Europe gives a fuck about Moldova. Nobody is interested in Moldova. Tell me five things about Moldova. Name me five capital cities. Name me a couple of its regions. Name five famous Moldovans. Name me one event at global level that Moldovans have done.
Perhaps two famous Moldovan sportsmen? what is famous of their culture?

Of course it is peripheral! it is impossible to be more peripheral.

[IncelSlayer]

Moldova is very peripheral
https://st2.depositphotos.com/4288663/6507/i/950/depositphotos_65079151-stock-photo-3d-map-of-europe-with.jpg

It is a country absolutely away of the European whatever. Nobody in Europe gives a fuck about Moldova. Nobody is interested in Moldova. Tell me five things about Moldova. Name me five capital cities. Name me a couple of its regions. Name five famous Moldovans. Name me one event at global level that Moldovans have done.
Perhaps two famous Moldovan sportsmen? what is famous of their culture?

Of course it is peripheral! it is impossible to be more peripheral.

Speaking about geography, no one would consider Iberians, europeans, had they not lived in Europe.Your n.african mixture is the equivalent of turks mongoloid mixture, in the 5-10% range, so if we considered iberians as white, then so are turks, from west atleast.Hell, I've seen plenty of light haired&blue eyed turks just on this forum, meanwhile all iberians I've seen on this forum are dark haired&eyed.

[Thot Whisperer]

Ethnic Moldovans are likely heterogeneous as well and it is hard to draw the line on who is an ethnic Moldovan or not, a lot of them even use Russian as their first language in daily use.


That's on the regions where it peaks because in reality it is lower. I am from Western Iberia and on K36 and Lukasz Reports I am realistically moulded as having 5% genomes from the North of Africa, not 15%. And I don't see how scoring 5% North African is detrimental to your "Europeaness" whereas in those regions there is people who score up to 30% West Asian. Both are non-European Caucasoid components. Scoring 5% East Asian as you were saying that Moldovans do (your words not mine, I don't know to be honest) is not Caucasian, it is Mongoloid.


Ive seen atleast three apricity Balkaniggas that scored 30% West Asian. An Albanian, Bosnian, forgot about where the other guy was from.

[IncelSlayer]

Ive seen atleast three apricity Balkaniggas that scored 30% West Asian. An Albanian, Bosnian, forgot about where the other guy was from.

Viriato is wrong.West Asian is a fully caucasian component, N.African is NOT, its proxy for Caucasian+SSA.What makes the bulk of todays West Asian populations dark and non-european looking, is the signifiant S.Asian component,(plus others like mongoloid,ssa etc they often carry).For example, a georgian(who are the purest west asians) who is not mixed with either armenoids or turks, looks more white than an Iberian, and is most of the times, lighter than one.

[Cristiano viejo]

Speaking about geography, no one would consider Iberians, europeans, had they not lived in Europe.Your n.african mixture is the equivalent of turks mongoloid mixture, in the 5-10% range, so if we considered iberians as white, then so are turks, from west atleast.Hell, I've seen plenty of light haired&blue eyed turks just on this forum, meanwhile all iberians I've seen on this forum are dark haired&eyed.

I would wish the 700.000 Romanians living in Spain think the same and move to Romania again. Or Turkey, the land of light haired and blue eyed people :heh:

[Chaos One]

I would wish the 700.000 Romanians living in Spain think the same and move to Romania again. Or Turkey, the land of light haired and blue eyed people :heh:

You even forgot he said Iberians have 5-10% North African. :(

[Cristiano viejo]

You even forgot he said Iberians have 5-10% North African. :(

Because I dont believe in "genetic". This Romanian woman could be 100% white genetically, even if we obviate his Asian (Turkish, Mongoloid and Gypsy) component and phenotype, while her Spanish husband could be 100% black
https://static1.diariovasco.com/www/multimedia/201710/10/media/cortadas/marcela-topor-mujer-puigdemont-k7yH-U4099621219199G-624x385@RC.jpg

tell me, who looks white of both really? :)

5-10% North African?? show me a single Spanish dna test with these amounts, please.

[Carpatz]

Spaniards have more "western" atlantid features obviously, but Bulgars are way lighter in skin color, and It's not even comparable. Eye and hair color is similar between the two. In Bulgaria only gypsies are pigmented the way someone like Cristiano Ronaldo is.

[Cristiano viejo]

Spaniards have more "western" atlantid features obviously, but Bulgars are way lighter in skin color, and It's not even comparable. Eye and hair color is similar between the two. In Bulgaria only gypsies are pigmented the way someone like Cristiano Ronaldo is.

Cristiano Ronaldo is not Spaniard, to start. To finish, his grandmother is black from Cabo Verde. So very bad example.

Saying Bulgarian skin colour is not comparable because it is lighter by a mile, is ridicolous. You talk as if the difference was between a white and a black.
The day that you come to Spain (I hope that does not happen ever), you will check the tons of stupidities you say.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Cristiano Ronaldo is not Spaniard, to start. To finish, his grandmother is black from Cabo Verde. So very bad example.

Saying Bulgarian skin colour is not comparable because it is lighter by a mile, is ridicolous. You talk as if the difference was between a white and a black.
The day that you come to Spain (I hope that does not happen ever), you will check the tons of stupidities you say.He looks spaniard

[Cristiano viejo]

He looks spaniard

He could look Martian if you wish. Real life is that he is not Spaniard and he is mixed like you, just more handsome, younger and richer, as he used to say.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

He could look Martian if you wish. Real life is that he is not Spaniard and he is mixed like you, just more handsome, younger and richer, as he used to say.Hes not mixed like me. Hes 3 /4 iberian and looks spaniard.
And he may actually be closer to 7 /8 iberian if his grandmother is actually mullata

[Cristiano viejo]

Hes not mixed like me. Hes 3 /4 iberian and looks spaniard.
He looks Dominican.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

He looks Dominican.Only from where I live because for some reason we get white dominicans and more pardos here. Most Dominicans are typically mullato though and black. He looks spaniard

[Cristiano viejo]

Only from where I live because for some reason we get white dominicans and more pardos here. Most Dominicans are typically mullato though and black. He looks spaniard

To me he looks Dominican like you.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

To me he looks Dominican like you.He is octaroon or pardo. Dominicans dont typically look like that. Its only exceptions is if you live in a area where for some reason theres more of them.

He looks spaniard. People tell me I look middle eastern. Had an indian or pakistani girl randomly talk to me in their language once. I was like I dont understand...

[Cristiano viejo]

He is octaroon or pardo. Dominicans dont typically look like that. Its only exceptions is if you live in a area where for some reason theres more of them.

He looks spaniard.
He looks Dominican from a bald mulato father and a fat black mother. Typical Dominican. But richer, yeah.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

He looks Dominican from a bald mulato father and a fat black mother. Typical Dominican. But richer, yeah.

He looks iberian. Don't know what you'e trying to do.

[Thot Whisperer]

Viriato is wrong.West Asian is a fully caucasian component, N.African is NOT, its proxy for Caucasian+SSA.What makes the bulk of todays West Asian populations dark and non-european looking, is the signifiant S.Asian component,(plus others like mongoloid,ssa etc they often carry).For example, a georgian(who are the purest west asians) who is not mixed with either armenoids or turks, looks more white than an Iberian, and is most of the times, lighter than one.

West Asian and North African are both non European components. The NA admixture you’re inflating is proven to be on average 1.2%. Whether you like it or not balkanites score west Asian significantly much more than a Spaniard would score NA. Case in point being you having a West Asian paternal haplogroup.

[alnortedelsur]

Spaniards have more "western" atlantid features obviously, but Bulgars are way lighter in skin color, and It's not even comparable. Eye and hair color is similar between the two. In Bulgaria only gypsies are pigmented the way someone like Cristiano Ronaldo is.

That's a very cool story! :cool:

[alnortedelsur]

Spaniards are usually darker than Northern and Central Italians. I have been to those regions. Southern Italians might be usually darker than Spaniards.

Spaniards are not darker than central Italians. Where did you buy that weed you smoke? It must be really good.

[TheForeigner]

Cristiano Ronaldo is not that dark when not tanned. See picture in the middle. 81210

[pelikarski]

Spaniards have more "western" atlantid features obviously, but Bulgars are way lighter in skin color, and It's not even comparable. Eye and hair color is similar between the two. In Bulgaria only gypsies are pigmented the way someone like Cristiano Ronaldo is.

I don't know regarding Spaniards, but Bulgarians have around 1/3 light eyes.

Some areas like SE Bulgarians maybe 1/4, others like Rhodopeans maybe half.

[Jana]

West Asian and North African are both non European components. The NA admixture you’re inflating is proven to be on average 1.2%. Whether you like it or not balkanites score west Asian significantly much more than a Spaniard would score NA. Case in point being you having a West Asian paternal haplogroup.

West Asian admixture was primarly spread by Indo-European invasons, who were half CHG (Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer) themself. In that case PIE people where not white :D
Before steppe people arrived to Europe, there was no west asian admixture of any sort, only neolithic Anatolian.

That being said there is extra west asian in Eastern mediterranean and Balkans that is obviously related with post IE movements, but it's not quite clear where did it came from.

[Thracian]

Bulgarians.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Viriato is wrong.West Asian is a fully caucasian component, N.African is NOT, its proxy for Caucasian+SSA.What makes the bulk of todays West Asian populations dark and non-european looking, is the signifiant S.Asian component,(plus others like mongoloid,ssa etc they often carry).For example, a georgian(who are the purest west asians) who is not mixed with either armenoids or turks, looks more white than an Iberian, and is most of the times, lighter than one.

It is not a proxy for Caucasian\SSA, all calculators that have a North African component have one for SSA as well, there is a clear distinction. That makes as much sense as saying that Baltic is a proxy for Caucasian\Mongoloid.

Georgians plot with Turks and quite "far away" from all other European ethnic groups and there's a reason for that, their lower indigenous European admixture. Hair colour and pigmentation is just deceiving and doesn't necessarily correlate with what you would expect from your genomic profile.

[IncelSlayer]

West Asian and North African are both non European components. The NA admixture you’re inflating is proven to be on average 1.2%. Whether you like it or not balkanites score west Asian significantly much more than a Spaniard would score NA. Case in point being you having a West Asian paternal haplogroup.

West Asian is non european, but then again, its caucasoid.N.african is not.You don't want to accept this simple fact.


The NA admixture you’re inflating is proven to be on average 1.2%. Whether you like it or not balkanites score west Asian significantly much more than a Spaniard would score NA. Case in point being you having a West Asian paternal haplogroup.

What's your proof?On Gedmatch, iberians score atleast 5% NA.Again, NA is a non-european mostly non-caucasoid component, its the reason why iberians are this dark.


Case in point being you having a West Asian paternal haplogroup.

I don't see the point you're trying to make , ydna is not related with admixture.But I'd rather be 100% West Asian than a 10% N.African iberian.The Bronze Age Yamnaya invaders, who slaughtered all men in Iberia, were half CHG, so they had plenty of West Asian %, but they were fully white, today iberians?Not so much.

So I raise this point again, if iberians are considered white, then so should turks and other off-caucasoid populations,bordering Europe, should be,since they have similar non caucasoid % in them.

[IncelSlayer]

It is not a proxy for Caucasian\SSA, all calculators that have a North African component have one for SSA as well, there is a clear distinction. That makes as much sense as saying that Baltic is a proxy for Caucasian\Mongoloid.

Georgians plot with Turks and quite "far away" from all other European ethnic groups and there's a reason for that, their lower indigenous European admixture. Hair colour and pigmentation is just deceiving and doesn't necessarily correlate with what you would expect from your genomic profile.

It is proxy for Caucasian + SSA, because North Africans are Caucasians with SSA.It's modeled after berbers.If you score N.African %, deep down you also score SSA, like all iberians.It doesn't matter where you plot, those are autisms, Maintenance, whom even Mortimer plots more euro than him, looks more european than all iberians from this forum.

Baltic is not related with Mongoloid.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

It is proxy for Caucasian + SSA, because North Africans are Caucasians with SSA.It's modeled after berbers.If you score N.African %, deep down you also score SSA, like all iberians.It doesn't matter where you plot, those are autisms, Maintenance, whom even Mortimer plots more euro than him, looks more european than all iberians from this forum.

It is not how it works otherwise every single component would be a proxy for something else because none of the samples used in the runs is 100% only one component. Assuming that what you are saying makes sense then it would mean based of K15 that Mozabite Berbers are ~10% SSA and therefore someone who scores 5% North African is 0.5% SSA. Impressive. Now do the same math for people who score significant portions of West Asian, East Med and East Asian and according to your logic they will be way more Middle-Eastern, Mongoloid and non-indigenously European than Iberians (which they are by the way).

[IncelSlayer]

It is not how it works otherwise every single component would be a proxy for something else

That's true, they all decay to something, in the end.Gedmatch is a worthless calculator, its only about looks. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a duck.
Middle Eastern is not a component, its similar to North African.West Asian % is not related with Middle Eastern %,neither is Baltic with Mongoloid.East asian is partly mongoloid,partly caucasoid, keep coping.
23andme can tell iberians they are 100% european, in the end you will still score SSA, if you look deep enough.
You might have 'reconquered' your country from the moors, destroyed their buildings, slaughtered and banished them but in the end they won.Why?Because they have breed your genepool so hard, that all iberians, from North to South, carry a part of moors in them.

[Mark]

That's true, they all decay to something, in the end.Gedmatch is a worthless calculator, its only about looks. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a duck.
Middle Eastern is not a component, its similar to North African.West Asian % is not related with Middle Eastern %,neither is Baltic with Mongoloid.East asian is partly mongoloid,partly caucasoid, keep coping.
23andme can tell iberians they are 100% european, in the end you will still score SSA, if you look deep enough.
You might have 'reconquered' your country from the moors, destroyed their buildings, slaughtered and banished them but in the end they won.Why?Because they have breed your genepool so hard, that all iberians, from North to South, carry a part of moors in them.

Wow.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

That's true, they all decay to something, in the end.Gedmatch is a worthless calculator, its only about looks. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a duck.
Middle Eastern is not a component, its similar to North African.West Asian % is not related with Middle Eastern %,neither is Baltic with Mongoloid.East asian is partly mongoloid,partly caucasoid, keep coping.
23andme can tell iberians they are 100% european, in the end you will still score SSA, if you look deep enough.
You might have 'reconquered' your country from the moors, destroyed their buildings, slaughtered and banished them but in the end they won.Why?Because they have breed your genepool so hard, that all iberians, from North to South, carry a part of moors in them.

If you look deep enough you will score literally everything.

North African genomes in Iberia are way older than "Moors" but I enjoyed seeing you mention a few achievements, a word that is probably unknown to you.

23andMe is pretty reliable and the best autosomal test. You should know it and if you didn't care so much about it you wouldn't have spent a hundred bucks on it just to be able to compare yourself with Stears because that was the main reason behind it, not genetics.

Also interesting to note that you like to question our "Europeaness" when the only native European I have ever seen that doesn't even plot among Europeans comes from Romania.

[Jana]

East Asian is fully mongoloid component, it is Siberian that has some Caucasoid (EHG) in it.

[IncelSlayer]

If you look deep enough you will score literally everything.

North African genomes in Iberia are way older than "Moors" but I enjoyed seeing you mention a few achievements, a word that is probably unknown to you.

23andMe is pretty reliable and the best autosomal test. You should know it and if you didn't care so much about it you wouldn't have spent a hundred bucks on it just to be able to compare yourself with Stears because that was the main reason behind it, not genetics.

Also interesting to note that you like to question our "Europeaness" when the only native European I have ever seen that doesn't even plot among Europeans comes from Romania.

N.African admixture in Iberians is not ancient,most of it is recent,the latest study proved it. https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?238148-New-study-on-Iberian-Peninsula-genetics
No you dumb ass,the avg romanian is more NW plotting than Stears, I was bound to be more euro than him.I spent bout 140$ on 23andme because for me that's nothing.My monthly earnings are in the 15k$ range,which I have proved already on *********The same Discord you left because Maintenance called you out for lightening your picture :lol00001::lol00001::lol00001:

[IncelSlayer]

The only achievements Iberians have,is the rape of everything that moved in S.America and creating mestizos.

[IncelSlayer]

East Asian is fully mongoloid component, it is Siberian that has some Caucasoid (EHG) in it.

Thats just semantics.Whatever you call the non-european native component, from mongoloid,siberian,gook etc, east asian its still partly caucasoid.Same thing with N.african.

[Jana]

[/url]No you dumb ass,the avg romanian is more NW plotting than Stears, I was bound to be more euro than him.

Please stop lying because it is disgraceful. Average Romanian is heavily in Balkan cluster and more SE than average Serbs, not to mention compared with Stears.
https://i.imgur.com/UzQ8dOD.png

I understand you are insecure because you don't even score Romania or 23andme countries of ancestry neither you get Romanians in top 10 matches on gedmatch single population sharing, but your extremely outlying results won't make Romania more NW than it really is. And no, you aren't typical for North Romanian at all. Iron Pill and Dorkeymoon are.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

N.African admixture in Iberians is not ancient,most of it is recent,the latest study proved it. https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?238148-New-study-on-Iberian-Peninsula-genetics
No you dumb ass,the avg romanian is more NW plotting than Stears, I was bound to be more euro than him.I spent bout 140$ on 23andme because for me that's nothing.My monthly earnings are in the 15k$ range,which I have proved already on *********The same Discord you left because Maintenance called you out for lightening your picture :lol00001::lol00001::lol00001:

That study is the one that corroborates with the hypothesis that is way older. North African genomes peak in the North-Western regions of the peninsula that were never occupied. More so than in the regions were the Moors did actually inhabit for centuries like Andalusia.

You are a guy that quitted\dropped college, is unemployed, needs his mother to make sandwiches, can not get over a five years old beef with another TA member and his on a daily basis on TA\Discord but of course you earn 15k a month, just like Wadaad was making a million a year from selling camels back in Somalia.

You know pretty well why I left it and honestly I am better off without all the negativity and millennials "humor" that goes on in there.

[alnortedelsur]

That's true, they all decay to something, in the end.Gedmatch is a worthless calculator, its only about looks. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a duck.
Middle Eastern is not a component, its similar to North African.West Asian % is not related with Middle Eastern %,neither is Baltic with Mongoloid.East asian is partly mongoloid,partly caucasoid, keep coping.
23andme can tell iberians they are 100% european, in the end you will still score SSA, if you look deep enough.
You might have 'reconquered' your country from the moors, destroyed their buildings, slaughtered and banished them but in the end they won.Why?Because they have breed your genepool so hard, that all iberians, from North to South, carry a part of moors in them.

Now it comes that gedmatch is worthless, according to you, because Iberians cluster too well into Europe for what you would expect. Deal with it!

[alnortedelsur]

It is proxy for Caucasian + SSA, because North Africans are Caucasians with SSA.It's modeled after berbers.If you score N.African %, deep down you also score SSA, like all iberians.It doesn't matter where you plot, those are autisms, Maintenance, whom even Mortimer plots more euro than him, looks more european than all iberians from this forum.

Baltic is not related with Mongoloid.

Stop talking out of your ass. Cristiano Viejo is brunette, but has very standard/Euro fair skin, and he could pass in many parts of Europe; then, the Spanish user B01AB20 is blondish and blue eyed (I have seen his pics). Viriato looks very Euro too. I don't see anything non-Euro in him. And I'm not full Spanish, but you haven't seen my pics either.

[Aren]

It is not how it works otherwise every single component would be a proxy for something else because none of the samples used in the runs is 100% only one component. Assuming that what you are saying makes sense then it would mean based of K15 that Mozabite Berbers are ~10% SSA and therefore someone who scores 5% North African is 0.5% SSA. Impressive. Now do the same math for people who score significant portions of West Asian, East Med and East Asian and according to your logic they will be way more Middle-Eastern, Mongoloid and non-indigenously European than Iberians (which they are by the way).
"East Med" and "West Asian" were part of the formation of modern Europe. They have existed within the borders of Europe since the Neolithic. North African input or more accurately "Mozabite-like" is specific to Iberia and possibly Siciliy. Nowhere else in Europe.
Mozabite Berbers are btw around 20-25% SSA. Northeast Afrian component is completely SSA but specific to NE Africa.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

"East Med" and "West Asian" were part of the formation of modern Europe. They have existed within the borders of Europe since the Neolithic. North African input or more accurately "Mozabite-like" is specific to Iberia and possibly Siciliy. Nowhere else in Europe.
Mozabite Berbers are btw around 20-25% SSA. Northeast Afrian component is completely SSA but specific to NE Africa.

Northeast African component on Eurogenes is based on a Ethiopian Oromo sample and it is not "completely" sub-Saharan, unlike the Nigerian sample Davidiski used for SSA. If two components were the exact same thing there would be no reason to separate them in the first place but nice try genius.

Components that do no peak among ethnic Europeans are obviously not indigenous to Europe. So is the case of West Asian and East Med components based on Eurogenes projects.

[Mingle]

That study is the one that corroborates with the hypothesis that is way older. North African genomes peak in the North-Western regions of the peninsula that were never occupied. More so than in the regions were the Moors did actually inhabit for centuries like Andalusia.

It would have been due to post-reconquest events (paper that discusses this (https://indo-european.eu/2018/03/patterns-of-genetic-differentiation-and-the-footprints-of-historical-migrations-in-the-iberian-peninsula/)). Also:


A la hora de citar las causas, los científicos no se ponen de acuerdo. Para los investigadores catalanes, el origen africano de algunos gallegos guardaría relación con las deportaciones masivas de moriscos de Granada hacia otras zonas de España en el siglo XVI. Sin embargo, el equipo liderado por Carracedo ya apuntaba en el 2002 -en el marco de las Jornadas sobre Genética e Historia en el Noroeste Peninsular- que estas características genéticas pueden derivar de las primeras poblaciones árabes que llegaron a la comunidad gallega en el siglo VIII.

When citing causes, scientists do not agree. For Catalan researchers, the African origin of some Galicians would be related to the massive deportations of Moorish from Granada to other areas of Spain in the sixteenth century. However, the team led by Carracedo already pointed in 2002 - within the framework of the Conference on Genetics and History in the Peninsular Northwest - that these genetic characteristics may derive from the first Arab populations that arrived in the Galician community in the 8th century.

http://www.laopinioncoruna.es/sociedad/2008/12/05/origen-arabe-gallegos/242334.html

This link (http://www.losmoriscos.es/mv_personal_view.php?editid1=47267) talks about Moriscos in Galicia:


"Arrived at the XII Century, we find some of the most interesting documents about Moriscos in Galicia that is in the Tumbo of the Monastery of San Salvador de Sobrado dos Monxes (A Coruña), founded in the High Average Age by the Aloitiz, powerful family galadal county, related to the Osoriz and the Menendez, the founders of the Monastery of San Salvador de Celanova.En this document describes the genealogy, especially the offspring of a group of Koriscos who came to Sobrado dos Monxes bought as rural servants approximately and as the author of the transcript points out in the year 1150. "Regarding its origin, the document indicates two origins: the Portuguese territory and the Zamora lands. Although of Muslim religious origin, most were baptized and changed their names,surely animated by the monks of the Monastery of Sobrado, except in two cases-So in the document that Ali and his wife Fatima Regañada had died "pagani", that is, they had died as unbaptized infidels, something that does not happen with their daughter Hobona, because she is baptized and becomes Maria Ioannis-

I know it doesn't talk about mass migrations but it says that a Morisco family came to Galicia from either Portugal or Zamora. So its not hard to believe that Moriscos migrating to Galicia after the reconquest ended could have resulted in this.

Also, couldn't Galicia have more Neolithic North African than the rest of Spain? Combine that with Moorish ancestry and then you can get the relatively high NA there. Though this is just a guess of mine. People seem to be thinking that the NA in Iberia must either be exclusively from Moorish times or exclusively from Neolithic times.

By the way, I'm not sure its higher in Galicia than Portugal. Both tend to be referenced collectively.

[Jana]

Galicia has both higher North African and higher Celto-Germanic than average for Spain, isn't that interesting ? I think NA admixture in Iberia is both ancient and Moorish.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

It would have been due to post-reconquest events (paper that discusses this (https://indo-european.eu/2018/03/patterns-of-genetic-differentiation-and-the-footprints-of-historical-migrations-in-the-iberian-peninsula/)). Also:



http://www.laopinioncoruna.es/sociedad/2008/12/05/origen-arabe-gallegos/242334.html

This link (http://www.losmoriscos.es/mv_personal_view.php?editid1=47267) talks about Moriscos in Galicia:



I know it doesn't talk about mass migrations but it says that a Morisco family came to Galicia from either Portugal or Zamora. So its not hard to believe that Moriscos migrating to Galicia after the reconquest ended could have resulted in this.

Also, couldn't Galicia have more Neolithic North African than the rest of Spain? Combine that with Moorish ancestry and then you can get the relatively high NA there. Though this is just a guess of mine. People seem to be thinking that the NA in Iberia must either be exclusively from Moorish times or exclusively from Neolithic times.

By the way, I'm not sure its higher in Galicia than Portugal. Both tend to be referenced collectively.


You guys took the day today to try to teach me about my people and our history? :lol: Geez, I am starting to feel worried about such obsession regarding Iberians. What you wrote is inaccurate, cherry picked and out of context to prove whatever agenda you have. You even go as far as googling Galician newspapers in a language that you do not understand. The article says that there is no consensus among academics, yet you chose to just paste the paragraph that interests you: the one that presents an hypothesis based on a study from 2002 of Arabs roaming to Galiza in the VIII century, which is amusing because Galiza never had Moorish or Arab presence and secondly Galicians have a small portion of North African genomes not Arabic. Honestly I am starting to loose my mood to explain everything because there's no point in it.

Once again, Galiza and the North of Portugal were never conquered by the Moors. Period. South to North migrations were none existent, the Reconquista was defined from the North to South. Moriscos migrating to the north after or during the reconquista is an hypothesis that can only come from someone who isn't aware of what happened during the Reconquista, Holy Inquisition and Limpieza de sangre. We would have clear records of that but they are none existent, apart from the ones you took from "Centro de Estudios Moriscos del Mediterráneo" (:laugh:), some unknown biased website run by Moors and Moorish descents.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Galicia has both higher North African and higher Celto-Germanic than average for Spain, isn't that interesting ? I think NA admixture in Iberia is both ancient and Moorish.

Galiza is known for being the most genuinely Celtic region in Spain. It also has a reputation as the region of Spain with the highest percentage of light hair and blue eyes. For some people this would be paradoxical considering that it has the highest NA, even though it is 10% at best according to that study though I never saw on any Gedmatch runs Iberians scoring that high if we exclude the Canarians.

For me it is not paradoxical or surprising though because NA genomes are Caucasoid, the problem is that the component has "African" in its name and people automatically think that people should look like Sub-Saharan Africans.

[IncelSlayer]

That study is the one that corroborates with the hypothesis that is way older. North African genomes peak in the North-Western regions of the peninsula that were never occupied. More so than in the regions were the Moors did actually inhabit for centuries like Andalusia.


No, we're not interested in your theories,the study proves that N.African admixture in iberians is recent, read it before talking.



You are a guy that quitted\dropped college, is unemployed, needs his mother to make sandwiches, can not get over a five years old beef with another TA member and his on a daily basis on TA\Discord but of course you earn 15k a month, just like Wadaad was making a million a year from selling camels back in Somalia.


LMFAOOO where do you come up with this bullshit?

[IncelSlayer]

Northeast African component on Eurogenes is based on a Ethiopian Oromo sample and it is not "completely" sub-Saharan, unlike the Nigerian sample Davidiski used for SSA. If two components were the exact same thing there would be no reason to separate them in the first place but nice try genius.

Components that do no peak among ethnic Europeans are obviously not indigenous to Europe. So is the case of West Asian and East Med components based on Eurogenes projects.

It does not matter where it peaks, its still caucasian.If all east asians were to teleport in Canada, you will say its a canadian admixture, because it would peak there.Europeans are a mix of multiple components, and guess what, N.African is not one of them.In Europe its only among you and in other arab conquested territories, like Sicily.

[IncelSlayer]

Now it comes that gedmatch is worthless, according to you, because Iberians cluster too well into Europe for what you would expect. Deal with it!

What is considered european is subjective, we need to draw the line somewhere, and I say it around Iberia,Turkey and Asian part of Russia.

[Jana]

Btw, if Moors left small genetic admixture in Iberia, than it would be logical Ottoman Turks did the same in the Balkans.
Many people say Turks left no impact just because there is no much Central Asian mongoloid heritage there, but they forget areas that were longer under Turkish rule do score higher West Asian, East Med/Rea Sea and minor Siberian too than part of Balkans where Turks didn't conquer. So yeah I think they left small imprint. Modern-day Turks are mainly West Asian anyway.

[IncelSlayer]

Btw, if Moors left small genetic admixture in Iberia, than it would be logical Ottoman Turks did the same in the Balkans.
Many people say Turks left no impact just because there is no much Central Asian mongoloid heritage there, but they forget areas that were longer under Turkish rule do score higher West Asian, East Med/Rea Dea and minor Siberiant too than part of Balkans where Turks didn't conquer. So yeah I think they left small imprint. Modern-day Turks are mainly West Asian anyway.

Not true, ottomans did not mix with balkanites, only turkic tribes but those were small enough nomadic groups and did not leave any noticeable genetic footprint.
Moors did not rape iberians, the ones that left were forced to convert to christianity and were slowly assimilated in their gene poles.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

It does not matter where it peaks, its still caucasian.If all east asians were to teleport in Canada, you will say its a canadian admixture, because it would peak there.Europeans are a mix of multiple components, and guess what, N.African is not one of them.In Europe its only among you and in other arab conquested territories, like Sicily.

I know they are a mixture of different components. You being Arab peaking JM92 is a living reminder. But I guess that Iberians are the ones who are Arab.

Ah sorry, it peaks in "Ancient Rome" according to you, I forgot.

[Jana]

Not true, ottomans did not mix with balkanites, only turkic tribes but those were small enough nomadic groups and did not leave any noticeable genetic footprint.
Moors did not rape iberians, the ones that left were forced to convert to christianity and were slowly assimilated in their gene poles.

Than why do the Balkanites score higher west Asian than rest of Europe ? Some spread with PIEs people obviously, but not all, because if it did it would peak in East Slavs and they have way less West Asian than Balkan people. Only if you think NE Europeans assimilated Uralic people who are low in West Asian / CHG admixture after bronze age.

There is extra Caucasus/West Asian/CHG in area stretching from Sicily/South Italy to Greece and Balkans that doesn't correlate well with IE expansion and that needs to be properly researched.

[IncelSlayer]

I know they are a mixture of different components. You being Arab peaking JM92 is a living reminder. But I guess that Iberians are the ones who are Arab.

Ah sorry, it is "Ancient Roman peaking", I forgot.

LMFAO keep changing the subject, mixed race boy.You got N.African that decays to SSA, this is why you don't really look european, without it you would look like french people.Truth is, if you are iberian, you have at least one relative that was raped ,from yamnayas in prehistory to berber in ancient times and Umayyad Caliphate in middle ages, they thoroughly rewritten your DNA and iberians can pull their m-muh its ancient mixture theory(like it matters if its ancient or not) inside of their ass, that's where portugalian babies come from.

[Token]

Moors did made a impact, and it was not small. Bronze and Iron Age Iberians were barely 1% North African, which totally excludes a pre-historic source for this type of admixture like some Iberians like to claim. Modern-day Iberians can score up to 12% North African to the exclusion of their Iron Age ancestors. Most of it derives from Moors, but Phoenician colonization might have left a impact in Southern Iberia. People should seriously stop with this 'muh pure race' idiocy.

[Jana]

Moors did made a impact, and it was not small. Bronze and Iron Age Iberians were barely 1% North African, which totally excludes a pre-historic source for this type of admixture like some Iberians like to claim. Modern-day Iberians can score up to 12% North African to the exclusion of their Iron Age ancestors. Most of it derives from Moors, but Phoenician colonization might have left a impact in Southern Iberia. People should seriously stop with this 'muh pure race' idiocy.

What is your theory on this ?


There is extra Caucasus/West Asian/CHG in area stretching from Sicily/South Italy to Greece and Balkans that doesn't correlate well with IE expansion and that needs to be properly researched.

[Jana]

LMFAO keep changing the subject, mixed race boy.You got N.African that decays to SSA, this is why you don't really look european, without it you would look like french people.Truth is, if you are iberian, you have at least one relative that was raped ,from yamnayas in prehistory to berber in ancient times and Umayyad Caliphate in middle ages, they thoroughly rewritten your DNA and iberians can pull their m-muh its ancient mixture theory(like it matters if its ancient or not) inside of their ass, that's where portugalian babies come from.

Since you cluster with Hungary on K15 PCA, we can conclude you are rape offspring of Hungarian soldiers in Romania. No ? :picard2:

[IncelSlayer]

Than why do the Balkanites score higher west Asian than rest of Europe ? Some spread with PIEs people obviously, but not all, because if it did it would peak in East Slavs and they have way less West Asian than Balkan people.
Only if you think NE Europeans assimilated Uralic people who are low in West Asian / CHG admixture after bronze age.

There is extra Caucasus/West Asian/CHG in area stretching from Sicily/South Italy to Greece and Balkans that doesn't correlate well with IE expansion and that needs to be properly researched.

They score higher West Asian because they are closer to West Asian countries, miss 135 IQ.What PIE and IE are you talking about?A populations genome changes every few tens of generations.For example, Ancient balkanites were not identical with today balkanites.

[IncelSlayer]

Since you cluster with Hungary on K15 PCA, we can conclude you are rape offspring of Hungarian soldiers in Romania. No ? :picard2:

I cluster in Hungary because I have Baltic % as high as that of poles, iberians cluster where they are because of N.African, without it they would cluster in France.See?It's all logical.

[Jana]

They score higher West Asian because they are closer to West Asian countries, miss 135 IQ.What PIE and IE are you talking about?A populations genome changes every few tens of generations.For example, Ancient balkanites were not identical with today balkanites.

Weast Asian admixture was zero percent in neolithic Balkan or any other European neolithic samples. So it came with IE expansion and something after that, and saying Turkish admixture additionaly increased West Asian admixture in Balkans doesn't seem so far fetched IMHO. Maybe not entirely due to Turks, but party. Who knows ?

[IncelSlayer]

Weast Asian admixture was zero percent in neolithic Balkan or any other European neolithic samples. So it came with IE expansion and something after that, and saying Turkish admixture additionaly increased West Asian admixture in Balkans doesn't seem so far fetched IMHO.

There is really no historical or genetic proof that Ottomans mixed with balkanites.The disease of forums is that people postulate their assertions.

[Visage pâle]

I don't know how bulgarian looks but spaniards are rather fair skinned with dark brown hair and light brown eyes.

[IncelSlayer]

I don't know how bulgarian looks but spaniards are rather fair skinned with dark brown hair and light brown eyes.

Bulgarians are and look whiter than Iberians, both in pigmentation and in the morphology of their skull.
Iberians come in 2 shapes,either a berberoid beaner or a cuck skulled atlantid.There's really no point comparing them.

[Visage pâle]

Bulgarians are and look whiter than Iberians, both in pigmentation and in the morphology of their skull.
Iberians come in 2 shapes,either a berberoid beaner or a cuck skulled atlantid.There's really no point comparing them.

I don't see the point with Morphology. Typical spaniards have dark hair and fair white skin.

[Token]

What is your theory on this ?

Extra Caucasus-like admixture was found in one Sicilian Beaker without any kind of steppe ancestry at even higher percentages than modern-day Southeastern Europeans and Sicilians. That type of admixture might predate the Late Neolithic, and seems to be closest to Kura-Araxes.

[Thot Whisperer]

West Asian admixture was primarly spread by Indo-European invasons, who were half CHG (Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer) themself. In that case PIE people where not white :D
Before steppe people arrived to Europe, there was no west asian admixture of any sort, only neolithic Anatolian.

That being said there is extra west asian in Eastern mediterranean and Balkans that is obviously related with post IE movements, but it's not quite clear where did it came from.

West Asian admixture in certain Balkan countries is way too high to contribute it to PIE peoples completely like the dude INCELS slayer is suggesting. PIE peoples are genetically distant from any modern populations, I don’t think we should hold them to modern day standards of an arbitrary word such as race.

[Jana]

West Asian admixture in certain Balkan countries is way too high to contribute it to PIE peoples completely like the dude INCELS slayer is suggesting. PIE peoples are genetically distant from any modern populations, I don’t think we should hold them to modern day standards of an arbitrary word such as race.

We were just discussing that exact topic, if you didn't notice. :o

[Insuperable]

Extra Caucasus-like admixture was found in one Sicilian Beaker without any kind of steppe ancestry at even higher percentages than modern-day Southeastern Europeans and Sicilians. That type of admixture might predate the Late Neolithic, and seems to be closest to Kura-Araxes.

Ancient Mycenaean samples also had also quite a lot of West Asian.

[IncelSlayer]

West Asian admixture in certain Balkan countries is way too high to contribute it to PIE peoples completely like the dude INCELS slayer is suggesting

Where did I suggest this, you dumb mutt?

[Thot Whisperer]

West Asian is non european, but then again, its caucasoid.N.african is not.You don't want to accept this simple fact.



What's your proof?On Gedmatch, iberians score atleast 5% NA.Again, NA is a non-european mostly non-caucasoid component, its the reason why iberians are this dark.



I don't see the point you're trying to make , ydna is not related with admixture.But I'd rather be 100% West Asian than a 10% N.African iberian.The Bronze Age Yamnaya invaders, who slaughtered all men in Iberia, were half CHG, so they had plenty of West Asian %, but they were fully white, today iberians?Not so much.

So I raise this point again, if iberians are considered white, then so should turks and other off-caucasoid populations,bordering Europe, should be,since they have similar non caucasoid % in them.

1. You can’t seem to comprehend that I’m suggesting both components are equally not European.

2. Find me a spaniard that scores 5% NA in gedmatch, besides a Canary Islander.

3. Once again the West Asian admixture in certain Balkan countries is waaay to high to contribute it to PIE peoples. The paternal haologroup is the most important aspect of a mans dna only a cuck would beg to differ. I’d rather be a R1b spaniard than a Jm92 spawn of a west Asian sandnigger.

[Thot Whisperer]

Where did I suggest this, you dumb mutt?

Keep circling around bud, read your previous posts.

[Thot Whisperer]

We were just discussing that exact topic, if you didn't notice. :o

:picard1: my bad lol.

[IncelSlayer]

1. You can’t seem to comprehend that I’m suggesting both components are equally not European.

2. Find me a spaniard that scores 5% NA in gedmatch, besides a Canary Islander.

3. Once again the West Asian admixture in certain Balkan countries is waaay to high to contribute it to PIE peoples. The paternal haologroup is the most important aspect of a mans dna only a cuck would beg to differ. I’d rather be a R1b spaniard than a Jm92 spawn of a west Asian sandnigger.

1.European is a culture and if we go by who came first argument then only Baltic component is European, so your argument makes no sense.

2.Pretty much all of them score in the 5-12% range.Viriato himself scores 5%, ask another portugalian member, Filhov, how much he scores.

3.The main R1b clade in westerners, has its origin in East Anatolia,meanwhile J-M92 has its origin in the European part of Mediterranean and its not found more east than NW Anatolia.Funny you call me a cuck when all iberians are rape spawns https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?261387-Every-man-in-Spain-was-wiped-out-4500-years-ago-by-hostile-invaders!!


Keep circling around bud, read your previous posts.

No, show me right now where did I suggest that, you dumb mutt.

[alnortedelsur]

Bulgarians are and look whiter than Iberians, both in pigmentation and in the morphology of their skull.
Iberians come in 2 shapes,either a berberoid beaner or a cuck skulled atlantid.There's really no point comparing them.

Only in your wet dreams.

[Thot Whisperer]

1.European is a culture and if we go by who came first argument then only Baltic component is European, so your argument makes no sense.

2.Pretty much all of them score in the 5-12% range.Viriato himself scores 5%, ask another portugalian member, Filhov, how much he scores.

3.The main R1b clade in westerners, has its origin in East Anatolia,meanwhile J-M92 has its origin in the European part of Mediterranean and its not found more east than NW Anatolia.Funny you call me a cuck when all iberians are rape spawns https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?261387-Every-man-in-Spain-was-wiped-out-4500-years-ago-by-hostile-invaders!!



No, show me right now where did I suggest that, you dumb mutt.

1. Difference is some Balkanites score the west Asian component 3-5 times more than the average European. I know it’s hard for you to cope because you yourself carry a west Asian paternal haplogroup but Baba Osman went through some of the Balkan countries like a sexual plague.

2. I’ve seen viriatos results stop your lies and filhov isn’t the norm because of where he is from. The Azore’s were used to transfer slaves across the Atlantic. That’s way the azores score more ssa than the average Portuguese. But notice how they both carry a euro y dna, unlike you’re ottoman orgy product ass.

3. R1b spread with the indo Europeans( bell beakers in Spain’s case). We carry their dna and on average spaniards score 30 yamnaya on Ancient admixture calculators. Why the fuck should I care about how Neolithic man were slaughtered?? Jm92 peaks in Central Asians cope as much as you want rape product Romanian.

[Jana]

1. Difference is some Balkanites score the west Asian component 3-5 times more than the average European.

My West Asian score is higher than average for my ethnicity (West_Asian 11.11 in Eurogenes K13), but my East Med is well below average. And I score zero Red Sea which isn't that common.
My look is very European. How do you explain that ? :P

[IncelSlayer]

1. Difference is some Balkanites score the west Asian component 3-5 times more than the average European. I know it’s hard for you to cope because you yourself carry a west Asian paternal haplogroup but Baba Osman went through some of the Balkan countries like a sexual plague.

2. I’ve seen viriatos results stop your lies and filhov isn’t the norm because of where he is from. The Azore’s were used to transfer slaves across the Atlantic. That’s way the azores score more ssa than the average Portuguese. But notice how they both carry a euro y dna, unlike you’re ottoman orgy product ass.

3. R1b spread with the indo Europeans( bell beakers in Spain’s case). We carry their dna and on average spaniards score 30 yamnaya on Ancient admixture calculators. Why the fuck should I care about how Neolithic man were slaughtered?? Jm92 peaks in Central Asians cope as much as you want rape product Romanian.

1.No they dont, all admixtures in Europe are linear with a radiant from their point of origin,except of course North African one, which Iberians have and was proven to be very recent.

2.LMFAO you really are a dumb son of a bitch, 5% is the minimum N.African iberians score, south iberians score bout 8-12%.Europe is a greek minoan invention, and they were J2a, so its the ultimate irony you are calling J2a people not european.


I am from Western Iberia and on K36 and Lukasz Reports I am realistically moulded as having 5% genomes from the North of Africa

3.R1b spread by rape, you are a rape product.


with a study last year suggesting 10 men for every one woman migrated into Europe as part of the group – an “extreme” ratio.

Not only a rape product but also a filthy ass bastard.

J-M92 does not exist among central asians, keep coping sandnigger. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9

[Mingle]

You guys took the day today to try to teach me about my people and our history? :lol: Geez, I am starting to feel worried about such obsession regarding Iberians. What you wrote is inaccurate, cherry picked and out of context to prove whatever agenda you have. You even go as far as googling Galician newspapers in a language that you do not understand. The article says that there is no consensus among academics, yet you chose to just paste the paragraph that interests you: the one that presents an hypothesis based on a study from 2002 of Arabs roaming to Galiza in the VIII century, which is amusing because Galiza never had Moorish or Arab presence and secondly Galicians have a small portion of North African genomes not Arabic. Honestly I am starting to loose my mood to explain everything because there's no point in it.

Once again, Galiza and the North of Portugal were never conquered by the Moors. Period. South to North migrations were none existent, the Reconquista was defined from the North to South. Moriscos migrating to the north after or during the reconquista is an hypothesis that can only come from someone who isn't aware of what happened during the Reconquista, Holy Inquisition and Limpieza de sangre. We would have clear records of that but they are none existent, apart from the ones you took from "Centro de Estudios Moriscos del Mediterráneo" (:laugh:), some unknown biased website run by Moors and Moorish descents.

I didn't "google Galician newspapers". Spanish websites came up when I typed in keywords into google. I had heard about Morisco migration to Galicia on Anthrogenica when the topic was brought up, so I was wondering if something came up on google and I got that. If Anthrogenica comes back up, then I'll post that info over here. Moriscos/Moors never went to Galicia? I haven't translated/read this yet, but maybe this (http://estudiosgallegos.revistas.csic.es/index.php/estudiosgallegos/article/download/113/114) might do some explaining.

You can't simply say that the NA DNA in Iberia is ancient because Moorish descendants never migrated to Galicia and then leave it at that. Next you have to actually prove that the admixture is ancient. Lack of proof for one thing doesn't equate to proof for something else. Token stated that the Bronze & Iron Age samples from Iberia had much less NA than Iberians do today. So in order for it to be ancient, you have to find ancient samples that have 5-10% NA. I think that there is a reason that the people that wrote the paper concluded that the admixture was recent.

[Mingle]

Btw, if Moors left small genetic admixture in Iberia, than it would be logical Ottoman Turks did the same in the Balkans.
Many people say Turks left no impact just because there is no much Central Asian mongoloid heritage there, but they forget areas that were longer under Turkish rule do score higher West Asian, East Med/Rea Sea and minor Siberian too than part of Balkans where Turks didn't conquer. So yeah I think they left small imprint. Modern-day Turks are mainly West Asian anyway.

No, Turks left no genetic impact in the Balkans.

1. Turks did not rule the Balkans for as long as the Moors ruled Iberia.

2. Turks did not Islamisize the entire Balkans, only some parts of it. Moors Islamisized the majority of Iberia and then intermingled with the locals there.

3. There were huge population exchanges. When Greece and Turkey did their population exchange, much more Greeks left Turkey than Turks left Greece since there weren't too many Turks in Greece in comparison. Turkey then had a lot of land left that they wanted to settle using the Turks (and to a lesser extent native Balkan Muslims). Close to 200k Muslims migrated from Yugoslavia to Turkey from 1952-1967. Before the Greece-Turkey population exchange, there was also a lot of migration of Muslims to Turkey. Balkan Christians and Muslims fought each other in the late 19th century resulting in a lot of refugees migrating to Turkey and other Muslims migrating to Turkey cause they didn't want to live under Christian rule. From 1878-1884, Turkey took in 800k+ Muslim refugees from the Balkans. From 1884-1897, they took in about 200k+. That is a LOT considering the time period. Also, many of these Muslim refugees were South Slavic and Albanian Muslims. Around 100k Muslims (mainly Turks) also emigrated from Vardar Macedonia to Turkey as a result of agreements between their governments from 1924-1933. A lot of Muslims (who were mostly natives) were killed as well. The only places with a significant Turkish minority in the Balkans are Bulgaria and West Thrace, and the Bulgars and Greeks from that region don't have a Turkish shift on GEDmatch or anything.

4. If Turks spread their seed in the Balkans, then Balkan Muslims should on average have a Turkish shift compared to Balkan Christians since Muslims are much more likely to reproduce with each other. However, that is not the case.

5. The increase in West Asian DNA can easily be explained by PIE migrations. There are no such papers concluding that there is recent Ottoman/Turkish DNA among Balkanites.

6. Transylvania was under Hungarian rule whereas Moldova and Wallachia were vassal states to the Ottoman Empire rather than directly ruled. If they're not directly ruled, they don't get a huge amount of migrants from the ruling state. There isn't a Wallachian-Moldovan and Transylvanian genetic divide among Romanians.

7. Regions never part of the Ottoman Empire such as Hungary, Transylvania, Croatia, etc. have a higher amount of West Asian compared to Iberians. Are they also partially Turkish?

[Jana]

West Asian genetics increases towards southern Balkans, where is less Indo-European admixture. But it was discussed on previous page.

[Pribislav]

Moors ruled in southern part of Iberia almost 800 years (711-1492).

Area on the Balkans which was the longest under the Ottomans was about 550 years - Thrace.

[Jana]

There are no such papers concluding that there is recent Ottoman/Turkish DNA among Balkanites.

Actually:


The Ottoman rule over the Balkans during 15–19 cc AD led inter alia to the conversion of the local people to Islam, the largest number of whose assumed descendants live in contemporary Bosnia and Kosovo. We questioned whether this cultural transformation was associated with a gene flow between Middle Eastern and Balkan populations. To do so we considered separately the Muslim (Bosniacs, Kosovars) and non-Muslim (Bosnian Croats and Serbs, Croatians, Serbians, Slovenians, Macedonians and Montenegrins) populations of Western Balkan region and calculated pairwise ibd sharing for each of these populations and Middle Eastern populations (Turks, Saudis, Palestinians, Iranians, Syrians).

Next, we inspected the average total length of genome shared identical by descent in cM for four length classes between Muslim and non-Muslim populations of Western Balkan vs Middle Eastern populations. We found that all tested Western Balkan populations, irrespective their ethno religious affiliations, demonstrate similar (p = 0.1–0.9) patterns of ibd sharing with Middle Eastern populations for shorter classes of ibd segments (1–2, 2–3, 3–4 cM). This is slightly higher with Turks, and lower with Saudis, Syrians, Iranians and Palestinians (Figure S12). For longer ibd segments only Kosovars have higher ibd relatedness with Palestinians (p = 0.0056 for 4–5 cM ibd segments) and only Bosniacs have higher ibd sharing with Turks (p = 0.0097 for 5–6 cM ibd segments) (Figure S12). However, taking into account that in general the number of shared ibd segments longer than 4 cM detected between Bosniacs, Kosovars and Middle Eastern populations is very low and that higher ibd sharing is not seen for other classes of ibd segments, we cannot consider the excess of long ibd segments between Bosniacs and Turks, and between Kosovars and Palestinians as sufficient evidence of stronger gene flow between Middle Eastern populations and Muslim populations of Western Balkan as compared to non-Muslim Western Balkan populations.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090

[Kelmendasi]

Actually:



https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090
You should highlight the rest of the paragraph. It continues to say how this shared IBD isn't sign of genetic input from MENA populations during the Ottoman era "However, taking into account that in general the number of shared ibd segments longer than 4 cM detected between Bosniacs, Kosovars and Middle Eastern populations is very low and that higher ibd sharing is not seen for other classes of ibd segments, we cannot consider the excess of long ibd segments between Bosniacs and Turks, and between Kosovars and Palestinians as sufficient evidence of stronger gene flow between Middle Eastern populations and Muslim populations of Western Balkan as compared to non-Muslim Western Balkan populations." The paper concludes saying that there is no genetic impact from the Ottomans in the Balkans.

[Mingle]

Actually:



https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090

Interesting. It says this after that though:


However, taking into account that in general the number of shared ibd segments longer than 4 cM detected between Bosniacs, Kosovars and Middle Eastern populations is very low and that higher ibd sharing is not seen for other classes of ibd segments, we cannot consider the excess of long ibd segments between Bosniacs and Turks, and between Kosovars and Palestinians as sufficient evidence of stronger gene flow between Middle Eastern populations and Muslim populations of Western Balkan as compared to non-Muslim Western Balkan populations.

[Jana]

You should highlight the rest of the paragraph. It continues to say how this shared IBD isn't sign of genetic input from MENA populations during the Ottoman era "However, taking into account that in general the number of shared ibd segments longer than 4 cM detected between Bosniacs, Kosovars and Middle Eastern populations is very low and that higher ibd sharing is not seen for other classes of ibd segments, we cannot consider the excess of long ibd segments between Bosniacs and Turks, and between Kosovars and Palestinians as sufficient evidence of stronger gene flow between Middle Eastern populations and Muslim populations of Western Balkan as compared to non-Muslim Western Balkan populations." The paper concludes saying that there is no genetic impact from the Ottomans in the Balkans.

Yes, and ? Where did I say elsewhere ? However I don't agree with the conclusion. If Bosniaks are only ones who share IBD with Turks, but Croats and Serbs don't who are otherwise identical to them, it means something.
Sound like very PC conclusion to me. Kosovar-Palestinian IBD connection could be just neolithic though.

[Jana]

Interesting. It says this after that though:

They can't conclude, but they didn't reject it completely either.

[Pribislav]

People in the Balkans which have Anatolian influence from Ottoman period are probably only Sanžakli Muslims and some Pomaks in Bulgaria.

I don't count Yoruks which live or lived in Macedonia, nothern Greece, Bulgaria and Kosovo. They are not Balkanites, but settlers from Anatolia.

[Jana]

People in the Balkans which have Anatolian influence from Ottoman period are probably only Sanžakli Muslims and some Pomaks in Bulgaria.

I don't count Yoruks which live or lived in Macedonia, nothern Greece, Bulgaria and Kosovo. They are not Balkanites, but settlers from Anatolia.

Bosniak samples are from Sarajevo, but in Sarajevo live many Sandžaklije. It wouldn't suprise me those that share IBD with Turks are actually Sandžak immigrants to Bosnia rather than proper Bosniaks.
Sandžaklije consider themself Bosniak too, so they can be included in such research I guess. But maybe not, who knows ? I think some Bosniaks from urban areas in Bosnia did mix with Turks.

[Kelmendasi]

Yes, and ? Where did I say elsewhere ? However I don't agree with the conclusion. If Bosniaks are only ones who share IBD with Turks, but Croats and Serbs don't who are otherwise identical to them, it means something.
Sound like very PC conclusion to me. Kosovar-Palestian IBD connection could be just neolithic though.
And so it doesn't suggest Ottoman input. I don't know much about Bosniak autosomal genetics but I doubt they have actual Turkish input, going by most results that I have seen.

[Insuperable]

Yes, and ? Where did I say elsewhere ? However I don't agree with the conclusion. If Bosniaks are only ones who share IBD with Turks, but Croats and Serbs don't who are otherwise identical to them, it means something.
Sound like very PC conclusion to me. Kosovar-Palestinian IBD connection could be just neolithic though.

Miss 135 IQ, you can have high IBD sharing with someone because of gene flow in one direction, not necessarily in two directions.

Don't know if this means anything. From that paper.

Part of the Western Balkan populations - Croatians, Macedonians and Bosnians - together with Eastern Slavic speakers, Poles and Hungarians have contributed also to the gene flow towards the Middle East (Turks, migration weight 0.22).

[Jana]

And so it doesn't suggest Ottoman input. I don't know much about Bosniak autosomal genetics but I doubt they have actual Turkish input, going by most results that I have seen.

Why do they share IBD with Turks ? Perhaps they share IBD with Turks that are descendants of Bosniak immigrants which aren't rare in Turkey. There is lot of possible answers to this question.

[Damião de Góis]

Moors did made a impact, and it was not small. Bronze and Iron Age Iberians were barely 1% North African, which totally excludes a pre-historic source for this type of admixture like some Iberians like to claim. Modern-day Iberians can score up to 12% North African to the exclusion of their Iron Age ancestors. Most of it derives from Moors, but Phoenician colonization might have left a impact in Southern Iberia. People should seriously stop with this 'muh pure race' idiocy.

Where are the Iron Age samples?

[Kelmendasi]

Why do they share IBD with Turks ? Perhaps they share IBD with Turks that are descendants of Bosniak immigrants which aren't in Turkey. There is lot of possible answers to this question.
There has been gene flow between the middle east, especially Anatolia, and the Balkans for quite some time. It isn't necessarily from actual Turkish input, could be older or from European input in Anatolia

[IncelSlayer]

Yes, and ? Where did I say elsewhere ?

Here, let me refreshen your selective memory, Miss 135 IQ.


Btw, if Moors left small genetic admixture in Iberia, than it would be logical Ottoman Turks did the same in the Balkans.
Many people say Turks left no impact just because there is no much Central Asian mongoloid heritage there, but they forget areas that were longer under Turkish rule do score higher West Asian, East Med/Rea Sea and minor Siberian too than part of Balkans where Turks didn't conquer. So yeah I think they left small imprint. Modern-day Turks are mainly West Asian anyway.

[Jana]

There has been gene flow between the middle east, especially Anatolia, and the Balkans for quite some time. It isn't necessarily from actual Turkish input.

So this geneflow avoided Croatia and Serbia but came to Bosnia which is between the two ? OK.

[Triumph of steel]

Spanish in my opinion with caveats. Well my mother lives in a small town in the North East of Spain and the true locals there are certainly at least slightly lighter than the Bulgarians that I have seen/met.

But why does it matter? There is no rivalry that I am aware of between the Spanish and Bulgarians so who gives a shit?

[Jana]

Here, let me refreshen your selective memory, Miss 135 IQ.

That's not connected to study I posted, because I don't say this study proves Turkish admix in Balkans. My previous quote isn't directed towards muslim Balkanites but all Balkanites.
I speculated one of reasons for extra CHG among others, could be due to Ottoman Turks. And CHG isn't highest in Bosnia, but grows stronger as you go further southeast in the Balkans.

Seems it isn't that, Token was only who gave informative answer. But my question is, how did it happen Sicilian beaker had no steppe and extremely high CHG ?
Beakers are suposed to be IE, aren't they. This could support theory CHG is main IE component rather than steppe if anything.

[Pribislav]

Bosniak samples are from Sarajevo, but in Sarajevo live many Sandžaklije. It wouldn't suprise me those that share IBD with Turks are actually Sandžak immigrants to Bosnia rather than proper Bosniaks.
Sandžaklije consider themself Bosniak too, so they can be included in such reseerch I guess. But maybe not, who knows ? I think some Bosniaks from urban ares in Bosnia did mix with Turks.

Anatolian individuals settled in few Bosnia urban centers. But in 1878 when AU took Bosnia most of Muslims of Anatolian origin moved to Turkey. Few Anatolians in Bosnia were urban elite, and native Muslims were predominantly peasants (Balije - Muslim peasants).
In 1878 Bosnian Muslims lost most of their elite, due to migration of Anatolians to Turkey.
Few Anatolian stayed in Bosnia. Bosnian Muslims have higher J2a than Serbs and Croatians, probably due to few Anatolian which stayed in Bosnia after 1878.
In Cazinska Krajina 1/3 of Muslims have legend about Anatolian origin. Vast majority of these legends are fake, because their ancestors claim Anatolian orifin for prestige in societly. In the Balkans in Ottoman time Anatolians were more important than Balkanite convertits on Islam, and many islamized Balkanites made up fake Anatolian origin.

In Novi Pazar, Bijelo Polje and Tutin it's well known among Muslims which families originated from Anatolia ("Turkuše").
"Turkuše" was nickname for Anatolian individuals which settled among native Muslims used by Slavic and Slavic speaking Muslims.

[Jana]

It seems that David Reich south Caucasus PIE homeland theory is gaining some ground. Am I wrong ?

[Kelmendasi]

So this geneflow avoided Croatia and Serbia but came to Bosnia which is between the two ? OK.
There obviously is IBD segments that are shared between Serbo-Croats and Turks. It's just not as high as the IBD shared between Bosniaks and Turks. This is even said by the paper. "
and non-Muslim (Bosnian Croats and Serbs, Macedonians, Montenegrins, Serbians and Croatians) of the Western Balkan populations share around 1.5 ibd segments per pair with the population from the Middle East (Table S4)." Bosniaks shared around 5cM with Turks, 5cM isn't a big segment. "Taken together, analysis of ibd segments reveals similar patterns of ibd sharing for Muslim and non-Muslim Western Balkan populations with populations of Middle East, providing thereby little support to a gene flow scenario during the conversion to Islam (15–19 cc AD) in the Balkans. Our analysis of ibd sharing agrees with other analyses (Figures 2, 3, 5) which indicate higher relatedness for all the Western Balkan populations and Turks as compared to other Middle Eastern populations, most likely due to geographic proximity."

[Ayetooey]

Anatolian individuals settled in few Bosnia urban centers. But in 1878 when AU took Bosnia most of Muslims of Anatolian origin moved to Turkey. Few Anatolians in Bosnia were urban elite, and native Muslims were predominantly peasants (Balije - Muslim peasants).
In 1878 Bosnian Muslims lost most of their elite, due to migration of Anatolians to Turkey.
Few Anatolian stayed in Bosnia. Bosnian Muslims have higher J2a than Serbs and Croatians, probably due to few Anatolian which stayed in Bosnia after 1878.
In Cazinska Krajina 1/3 of Muslims have legend about Anatolian origin. Vast majority of these legends are fake, because their ancestors claim Anatolian orifin for prestige in societly. In the Balkans in Ottoman time Anatolians were more important than Balkanite convertits on Islam, and many islamized Balkanites made up fake Anatolian origin.

In Novi Pazar, Bijelo Polje and Tutin it's well known among Muslims which families originated from Anatolia ("Turkuše").
"Turkuše" was nickname for Anatolian individuals which settled among native Muslims used by Slavic and slavic speaking Muslims.

Many Sandzakians have also moved to Sarajevo for better job opportunities and such, since these people obviously identify as 100 percent Bosniak they will also alter the reliability of any samples from BIH.

[Jana]

Sandžaklije aren't high in J2a though.

[Insuperable]

And so it doesn't suggest Ottoman input. I don't know much about Bosniak autosomal genetics but I doubt they have actual Turkish input, going by most results that I have seen.

This autosomal chart is from that study. When you look at the autosomal data it is obvious that IDB sharing (based on individuals in the study) of Balkans and Turks is there because of a single direction gene flow (Balkans to Anatolia) or because of geographic proximity according to authors.

https://i.postimg.cc/FKxpZHhS/journal-pone-0105090-g002.png

Looks like one Bosniak sample there is a Turk in disguise, but that is very unlikely. It's much more likely it is some part Gypsy intruder, similar to Romanian samples.

[Pribislav]

Many Sandzakians have also moved to Sarajevo for better job opportunities and such, since these people obviously identify as 100 percent Bosniak they will also alter the reliability of any samples from BIH.

I have seen various statistics for Bosnian Muslims and J2a is always 6-7% among them.

Among Serbs J2a is about 2,5% on average, and probably similar among Croatians.

[Kelmendasi]

This autosomal chart is from that study. When you look at the autosomal data it is obvious that IDB sharing (based on individuals in the study) is because of a single direction gene flow (Balkans to Anatolia) or because of geographic proximity according to authors.

https://i.postimg.cc/FKxpZHhS/journal-pone-0105090-g002.png

Looks like one of Bosniak samples there is a Turk in disguise, but that is very unlikely. It's much more likely it is some part Gypsy intruder, similar to Romanian samples.
Yh there were probably some people that weren't ethnically Bosniak but just identified as such. The Romanian samples definitely contained Gypsies.

[Dick]

3.The main R1b clade in westerners, has its origin in East Anatolia,meanwhile J-M92 has its origin in the European part of Mediterranean and its not found more east than NW Anatolia.Funny you call me a cuck when all iberians are rape spawns https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?261387-Every-man-in-Spain-was-wiped-out-4500-years-ago-by-hostile-invaders!!


This is disturbing. Also proof that you dont always learn language from conquerors. Look at the Basques and their high % of R1b

[wvwvw]

I respect all Southern European nations and would never say a bad word about them, but Bulgarians also have pretty swarthy reputation, maybe due to the fact we border Turkey.

due to gypsies and turks in bulgaria

[Kelmendasi]

It seems that David Reich south Caucasus PIE homeland theory is gaining some ground. Am I wrong ?
In terms of genetics, it is gaining some more ground. But there is still a lot of testing needed. Linguistically though, steppe theory seems to have more ground.

[Pribislav]

Sandžaklije aren't high in J2a though.

Sandžak Muslims - sample 232

E-V13 - 34,38%
R1b-BY611 - 21,98%
I2a1 - 11,24%
J2b - 9,91%
J2a - 5,6%
I1 - 5,17%
G2a - 3,45%
R1a - 3,02%
I2a2 - 1,29%
J1 - 1,29%
C - 0,86%
T - 0,86%
H - 0,43%

[Kivan]

due to gypsies

I don't think your family lives in Bulgaria.

[Jana]

This autosomal chart is from that study. When you look at the autosomal data it is obvious that IDB sharing (based on individuals in the study) of Balkans and Turks is there because of a single direction gene flow (Balkans to Anatolia) or because of geographic proximity according to authors.

https://i.postimg.cc/FKxpZHhS/journal-pone-0105090-g002.png

Looks like one Bosniak sample there is a Turk in disguise, but that is very unlikely. It's much more likely it is some part Gypsy intruder, similar to Romanian samples.

There is intruder among Croatian samples too. You spoted him years ago. But unlike Bosnian one it's not a Gypsy. Just has abnormal neolithic component.

[Jana]

I have seen various statistics for Bosnian Muslims and J2a is always 6-7% among them.

Among Serbs J2a is about 2,5% on average, and probably similar among Croatians.

Actually, among samples I collected from various sources J2a among Croats is higher than J2b. From 15 J2 samples I have (out of 149 samples total), 7 are J2a, 4 are J2b2, and 4 J2b1.
Keep in mind academic samples like Croatian Y DNA database may contain (and do) different info. But from this what I have, this is difference compared to Serbs who are mostly J2b1.

J2 is 10% in my statistics (4th most common haplogroup, E-V13 is 3rd at 11%).

[Insuperable]

There is intruder among Croatian samples too. You spoted him years ago. But unlike Bosnian one it's not a Gypsy. Just has abnormal neolithic component.

That guy is weird. He looks like a full blown Albanian there.
https://i.postimg.cc/MpfVHKcw/journal-pone-0105090-g002.png

And he does does cluster with Albanians.
https://i.postimg.cc/SNfNGBw9/image5.png

One and the only Slovakian sample there is Slovakian Jew who clusters in South Italy.

[Ayetooey]

I will point out in general it's difficult to gauge the accuracy of any of these Bosniak dna samples due to the absurdly wide definition many Bosniak nationalists have. I don't know the origin of the discussed samples are, but if the Bosniak Dna project is anything to go by, they're probably extremely unrepresentitive.

The Bosniak DNA project has launched with the aim of identifying the genetic image and origin of Bosniaks in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Sandzak and other countries throughout the Balkans and diaspora. Everyone who identifies as a Bosniak, as well as those who declare themselves as Gorans, Torbesh and other Muslim folk living among the Bosniaks is welcome to the group.

[Token]

It seems that David Reich south Caucasus PIE homeland theory is gaining some ground. Am I wrong ?

It is not just gaining some ground, it is the mainstream theory right now, at least among academics.
Funny thing is that genetic enthusiasts of Northern European descent get hysteric whenever it is brought up for discussion. I wonder why :rolleyes:

[Jana]

I will point out in general it's difficult to gauge the accuracy of any of these Bosniak dna samples due to the absurdly wide definition many Bosniak nationalists have. I don't know the origin of the discussed samples are, but if the Bosniak Dna project is anything to go by, they're probably extremely unrepresentitive.

The Bosniak DNA project has launched with the aim of identifying the genetic image and origin of Bosniaks in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Sandzak and other countries throughout the Balkans and diaspora. Everyone who identifies as a Bosniak, as well as those who declare themselves as Gorans, Torbesh and other Muslim folk living among the Bosniaks is welcome to the group.

My father's Y DNA is Bosniak, he is 1/4 Bosniak (by direct paternal line). But he doesn't match single Bosnian muslim so far, his only close matches are 2 Croats (one from Western Herzegovina and one from Dalmatia), 1 Serb (from Western Bosnia), and one Southern Italian. He is I2-PH908 which is most typical haplogroup for all Dinaric Slavs.

[Pribislav]

Actually, among samples I collected from various sources J2a among Croats is higher than J2b. From 15 J2 samples I have (out of 149 samples total), 7 are J2a, 4 are J2b2, and 4 J2b1.
Keep in mind academic samples like Croatian Y DNA database may contain (and do) different info. But from this what I have, this is difference compared to Serbs who are mostly J2b1.

J2 is 10% in my statistics (4th most common haplogroup, E-V13 is 3rd at 11%).

Serbian J2a have nothing to do with Anatolia.
Serbian J2a is from Cuce and Pješivci clans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuce
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pješivci

All Serbian J2a is S8230.

[Jana]

Serbian J2a have nothing to do with Anatolia.
Serbian J2a is from Cuce and Pješivci clans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuce
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pješivci

All Serbian J2a is S8230.

I don't know for J2a subclades among Croats, probably they are diverse. :)

[Insuperable]

My father's Y DNA is Bosniak, he is 1/4 Bosniak (by direct paternal line). But he doesn't match single Bosnian muslim so far, his only close matches are 2 Croats (one from Western Herzegovina and one from Dalmatia), 1 Serb (from Western Bosnia), and one Southern Italian. He is I2-PH908 which is most typical haplogroup for all Dinaric Slavs.

Your father is part Bosniak and stop connecting Croats and Bosniaks and his Bosniak part with Croats. Some of your posts just stink on that.

[Jana]

Your father is part Bosniak and stop connecting Croats and Bosniaks and his Bosniak part with Croats. Some of your posts just stink on that.

He is Croat. Just deal with it. Some Croats converted to Islam, and your denial won't change that.

[Insuperable]

He is Croat. Just deal with it. Some Croats converted to Islam, and your denial won't change that.

Fuck off mongrel. Obviously some have. There is no Bosniak today who is Croat. Stop connecting them.

[Pribislav]

My father's Y DNA is Bosniak, he is 1/4 Bosniak (by direct paternal line). But he doesn't match single Bosnian muslim so far, his only close matches are 2 Croats (one from Western Herzegovina and one from Dalmatia), 1 Serb (from Western Bosnia), and one Southern Italian. He is I2-PH908 which is most typical haplogroup for all Dinaric Slavs.

Surname of Serb from western Bosnia who have a match in y dna with your father is Ćirić?

[Jana]

I advise you to stop thumbing up posts IncelSlayer about topic you know nothing about, it makes you laughable.

[Jana]

Surname of Serb from western Bosnia who have a match in y dna with your father is Ćirić?

Yes. I think he is from Prijedor area.

[Jana]

Fuck off mongrel. Obviously some have. There is no Bosniak today who is Croat. Stop connecting them.

I don't care for politics and your dislike of Bosniaks, neither I am interested in modern Bosniaks. My father's muslim ancestors were biologically and by origins Croats, and all of their surnames were.
It is no wonder he cluster so tightly with Croats on MDLP K16 modern. In the end in the past modern nationalism of today didn't exist. For all I care Bosniaks can move to Turkey tomorrow.

[Pribislav]

Yes. I think he is from Prijedor area.

Ćirić from Marićka near Prijedor is I2>I-A1328.

[Jana]

Ćirić from Marićka near Prijedor is I2>I-A1328.

Than some other town there, not sure exactly which.

[Pribislav]

Than some other town there, not sure exactly which.

On "Serbian DNA project" there is 4 men with surname Ćirić.

Ćirić (Prijedor) - I2>I-A1328

Ćirić (Šumadija) - I2>I-Y3120

Ćirić (Užice) - I2>I-PH908

Ćirić (Pirot) - R1a>R-L1029