Why MGTOW Will Boom In The Muslim World: Some Observations

[The Lawspeaker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P3IMveTOcA

[Grace O'Malley]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P3IMveTOcA

Just looked up the meaning of MGTOW. Never heard of it before.


Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW) refers to men committed to self-determination. Referring to oneself as a ”’Man Going His Own Way”’ (MGHOW) is a statement of self-ownership and a declaration that a man has the supreme right to decide what his goals in life will be as opposed to having his goals dictated by others who, in preference to self-determination, prescribe utility-based roles for males entailing servitude to women and society.

Who's stopping anyone from self-determination? It just comes across as "special snowflake" to me. Don't men have a lot more freedom than women? When it's all said and done people make their own choices and it is up to us how we choose to live "to a certain degree". Not everyone has the same freedoms due to things like education, finances, responsibilities etc. I think you can march to your own drum to a certain extent. You don't have to buy into all the media hype and stereotypes. You can think for yourself.

A lot of what we do is our own fault to a certain extent. There are things you can't control but you make your choices on who your partner is and if you want to be a doormat. I find these things are not so much gender based. There are mongrel men and women and there are great men and women. Good and bad people really. It's not so much gender based but some people carry a bit of a chip on their shoulder and instead of looking at themselves like to blame others. It's like "poor poor pitiful me". :)

MGTOW sounds just like sour grapes in reaction to something like "feminism". Some women carry that too far as well but most women like men and in dysfunctional relationships it is women that are much more likely to get murdered. Men are physically stronger than women after all. In most of history women haven't had it so great as far as self-determination goes. In most of the world they still don't. Anyway I think men have it good and women as well these days.

It's funny that Muslim men will follow this trend having kept their women in servitude for so long. Women just want to have full lives with opportunities like men. In some Asian countries i.e. Philippines, Thailand etc a lot of women want to get out as they are poor countries so they are trying to get men from overseas as a lot of them don't have much options. I think the West has lost a lot of values so there are a lot of problems here as well but as a woman I'm glad I was born in the West. I want to have self-determination as well and not rely on a man's income. It is important for a women to have a good education and be independent. I'm sure men with daughters would want that for them as well. You wouldn't want your daughters to subservient to men and not have choices? I don't understand this "us and them" attitude. Both men and women should have equal opportunities. We as societies want both our sons and daughters to prosper and have fulfilling lives where they can make a reasonable living and get to do great things like travel. If a man feels a women shouldn't have equal rights because he isn't getting his need's met well that is quite narcissistic. Countries that are most wealthy have both men and women participating in the workforce.

A lot of topics on here appear to me to be men feeling sorry for themselves and as if women are out to do them wrong. That's how it comes across to me. We all have choices though and sure you can be unfortunate and end up with a real arsehole but that happens to both women and men. Relationships aren't easy and the same thing happens with people who have same-sex relationships. Just don't lose your objectivity.

[Gold-Shekel]

You're forgetting something, sure the Indonesians, and most non-practicing Muslims risk that.

But there is still a big chunk of Muslims who are ready to ride around in the back of a Toyota Hilux with AK-47s while blasting this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExUpx0CouYA

[rein]

Wut?

[The Lawspeaker]

I think Grace is sadly mistaken about one thing (just like the upper class couldn't understand the plight of the workers) : in the West, it's the superior position of the woman that's enshrined in law. Be it in family law (divorce), be it in the workspace (affirmative action) or, indeed in criminal (where hearsay and made up stories can have a man convicted). We've come to that point that the legal position of a man here in the West is far worse than that of a woman during the Middle Ages (where attacks on a woman meant certain death because the city or Lord would hang you for it). It's not sour grapes when one can easily point out that the man is, essentially, bird-free.

As for the Muslim world: I don't care if their society disintegrates, in fact: I applaud it. Maybe if they will be fighting among themselves, they we will be left in alone and we can sort out our own problem.

[Grace O'Malley]

I think Grace is sadly mistaken about one thing (just like the upper class couldn't understand the plight of the workers) : in the West, it's the superior position of the woman that's enshrined in law. Be it in family law (divorce), be it in the workspace (affirmative action) or, indeed in criminal (where hearsay and made up stories can have a man convicted). We've come to that point that the legal position of a man here in the West is far worse than that of a woman during the Middle Ages (where attacks on a woman meant certain death because the city or Lord would hang you for it). It's not sour grapes when one can easily point out that the man is, essentially, bird-free.

As for the Muslim world: I don't care if their society disintegrates, in fact: I applaud it. Maybe if they will be fighting among themselves, they we will be left in alone and we can sort out our own problem.

I do agree that it isn't all easy for men in the west now. I think it must be quite confusing. I still think it is lovely if men have old fashioned manners and open the door for women etc. Some women though get a bit irritated with that. A lot of people have issues these days. :) I'm not anti-men by any means and think some women are a bit precious but men are less sleazy now than in the past which is a good thing. I do agree it can be unfair on many men when they get divorced and lose their children. It is a difficult situation as you have to weigh up what's best for the children and the parents. I think it must be hard for children in shared custody. I know many children find it very unsettling. It's definitely a complex situation.

[The Lawspeaker]

I do agree that it isn't all easy for men in the west now. I think it must be quite confusing. I still think it is lovely if men have old fashioned manners and open the door for women etc. Some women though get a bit irritated with that. A lot of people have issues these days. :) I'm not anti-men by any means and think some women are a bit precious but men are less sleazy now than in the past which is a good thing. I do agree it can be unfair on many men when they get divorced and lose their children. It is a difficult situation as you have to weigh up what's best for the children and the parents. I think it must be hard for children in shared custody. I know many children find it very unsettling. It's definitely a complex situation.
It is. While I may be a Tradcon myself, I understand why the MGTOW think what they think (I think they're, usually, correct), but I think we're going to need a different solution. Rather than walking out, we should turn back the clock.

[Grace O'Malley]

It is. While I may be a Tradcon myself, I understand why the MGTOW think what they think (I think they're, usually, correct), but I think we're going to need a different solution. Rather than walking out, we should turn back the clock.

I think people aren't committed to marriage anymore. It is just a different mindset and I don't see people turning back the clock. Interestingly all the majority of my Irish relatives have long term marriages and very good marriages at that. I don't know how long that will last in Ireland though. I hope some of the old family values remain.

[The Lawspeaker]

I think people aren't committed to marriage anymore. It is just a different mindset and I don't see people turning back the clock. Interestingly all the majority of my Irish relatives have long term marriages and very good marriages at that.

That's Catholicism, for you ! No, I think the key lays in turning back the clock in a legal way: end no-fault divorce, make it unattractive to "ride the carousel" (particularly with migrants here) by only giving citizenship through the paternal line (as was done here prior to 1985) which would exclude women who ride the carousel from obtaining any welfare when they are left pregnant if the father isn't Dutch (after all, the child would not carry Dutch citizenship).. Those are just the first few steps. Of course, one should make abortion only available if there is a direct medical necessity and prescribe the pill only when there is a medical necessity (period regulation).

[Grace O'Malley]

That's Catholicism, for you ! No, I think the key lays in turning back the clock in a legal way: end no-fault divorce, make it unattractive to "ride the carousel" (particularly with migrants here) by only giving citizenship through the paternal line (as was done here prior to 1985) which would exclude women who ride the carousel from obtaining any welfare when they are left pregnant if the father isn't Dutch (after all, the child would not carry Dutch citizenship).. Those are just the first few steps. Of course, one should make abortion only available if there is a direct medical necessity and prescribe the pill only when there is a medical necessity (period regulation).

Why should a child gain citizenship from only the father when the mother is foreign and not from a Dutch woman? At least with women you know the child comes from them. Are you going to test children genetically to make sure the Dutch father is actually the father? :) I obviously don't agree with that and I don't think most people would either.

[The Lawspeaker]

Why should a child gain citizenship from only the father when the mother is foreign and not from a Dutch woman? At least with women you know the child comes from them. Are you going to test children genetically to make sure the Dutch father is actually the father? :) I obviously don't agree with that and I don't think most people would either.

It's certainly possible: I think that the law should be changed so that only ethnic Dutch (and foreign dependents through marriage or adoption) should carry Dutch passports. And we have a real problem with our women going after migrants and then left pregnant by them and we're footing the bill for their indiscretions. Before 1985, this would have been standard: if the father isn't Dutch, then the child isn't. This relied on the premise, upon marriage, a Dutch woman would lose her citizenship when marrying a foreigner. Of course, this can also be used to reign in wayward women...

[rein]

It's certainly possible: I think that the law should be changed so that only ethnic Dutch (and foreign dependents through marriage or adoption) should carry Dutch passports. And we have a real problem with our women going after migrants and then left pregnant by them and we're footing the bill for their indiscretions. Before 1985, this would have been standard: if the father isn't Dutch, then the child isn't. This relied on the premise, upon marriage, a Dutch woman would lose her citizenship when marrying a foreigner. Of course, this can also be used to reign in wayward women...

And become stateless if the country of her husband doesn’t accept her?

[The Lawspeaker]

And become stateless if the country of her husband doesn’t accept her?

She would retain her Dutch citizenship since there is no marriage. The child, however, isn't. Unless it would have to be naturalized. Funny enough: that would have taken years and the costs would, most likely, have been for the mother.

[Grace O'Malley]

It's certainly possible: I think that the law should be changed so that only ethnic Dutch (and foreign dependents through marriage or adoption) should carry Dutch passports. And we have a real problem with our women going after migrants and then left pregnant by them and we're footing the bill for their indiscretions. Before 1985, this would have been standard: if the father isn't Dutch, then the child isn't. This relied on the premise, upon marriage, a Dutch woman would lose her citizenship when marrying a foreigner. Of course, this can also be used to reign in wayward women...

Why are Dutch women attracted to foreigners? Is there statistics on this. Don't Dutch marry mostly other Dutch?

Anyway it isn't going to happen what you are suggesting because it is sexist. Why should women lose their citizenship and not men? If you marry a foreigner do you think you should lose your citizenship?

Equal rights if a woman loses her citizenship so should the men. That might stop people marrying foreigners. :)

[The Lawspeaker]

Why are Dutch women attracted to foreigners? Is there statistics on this. Don't Dutch marry mostly other Dutch?

Anyway it isn't going to happen what you are suggestion because it is sexist. Why should women lose their citizenship. If you marry a foreigner do you think you should lose your citizenship?

Actually: under current Dutch law, if we were to move abroad for, I think, 10 years, I would lose my citizenship and our children would lose their citizenship at the age of 18 if they don't choose for it. Women should lose their citizenship if they marry a foreigner, yes. You have to realise that under tradition, a name is only passed on through the paternal line and thus is so citizenship as the two are historically linked. And sexism - is actually a good thing: if you have a lack of sexism towards women, you will see that men no longer try to protect the women.

There are no statistics on it, since marriages with foreigners are rare but what does happen is that they ride the migrant carousel (because they think they're so exciting !) and then find a hard-working Dutchman to take care of her kids. I want to close off that route.

He is looking at it from a Dutch perspective:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pfekeeeY4s

Understand that there is a stigma against these women as well: they are seen as little better as the infamous femmes tondues.

[rein]

Actually: under current Dutch law, if we were to move abroad for, I think, 10 years, I would lose my citizenship and our children would lose their citizenship at the age of 18 if they don't choose for it. Women should lose their citizenship if they marry a foreigner, yes. You have to realise that under tradition, a name is only passed on through the paternal line and thus is so citizenship as the two are historically linked. And sexism - is actually a good thing: if you have a lack of sexism towards women, you will see that men no longer try to protect the women.

There are no statistics on it, since marriages with foreigners are rare but what does happen is that they ride the migrant carousel and then find a hard-working Dutchman to take care of her kids. I want to close off that route.

Totally unreasonable Dutch law. You shouldn’t lose your citizenship if you live outside the country for 10 years.

[The Lawspeaker]

Totally unreasonable Dutch law. You shouldn’t lose your citizenship if you live outside the country for 10 years.

I think it's reasonable from the government's perspective: I don't pay my taxes there anymore and I am no longer living in a Dutch municipality. I pay my taxes then elsewhere and I am a member of a different municipality in a different country. If I don't renew my passport at set times, they will take it in and assume I've become a citizen of X country.

[The Lawspeaker]

Besides: what reverting to the old law would also stop, would be the fact that some migrants who don't hold citizenship, get a Dutch girl pregnant in the hopes of gaining citizenship through that action.
So in other words: it's protecting the national community in more than one way.

[Grace O'Malley]

I think it's reasonable from the government's perspective: I don't pay my taxes there anymore and I am no longer living in a Dutch municipality. I pay my taxes then elsewhere and I am a member of a different municipality in a different country. If I don't renew my passport at set times, they will take it in and assume I've become a citizen of X country.

My daughter even has Irish citizenship and has never been to Ireland. Once an Irish citizen always an Irish citizen. You can even pass it on to the grandkids. Ireland never had that sexist law in regards to the mother.

[The Lawspeaker]

This would have been the provisions of the old Act (https://www.perfar.eu/policies/nationality-act-12-december-1892-governing-netherlands-nationality-and-residence):


1893 - Nationality Act of 12 December 1892, governing Netherlands nationality and residence in the Netherlands


The legal act abolished the different definitions of Dutch nationality in criminal, public, and civil law and introduced only one set of rules on the acquisition and loss of the Dutch citizenship.
Children could acquire Dutch citizenship at birth via descent from a Dutch father (ius sanguinis). Dutch mothers could only pass their citizenship to their children if they were born out of wedlock and no man had established paternity over the child. Children who were born out of wedlock to a foreign mother and a Dutch father only acquired the Dutch citizenship if the father recognized the child. The act thus introduced gender-specific regulations that had not been in place before. The act also no longer contained the ius soli principle.
Women had the same nationality as their husbands. Thus foreign women who married a Dutch man acquired the Dutch citizenship upon marriage, and a foreign woman was naturalised if her husband acquired Dutch citizenship. Minor children also followed their father in terms of citizenship. A Netherlands woman who married a foreigner or a stateless person automatically lost her Netherlands nationality. If a man lost his Netherlands nationality, so did his wife.
The Dutch nationality was not granted to ‘native and assimilated’ members of the Dutch East Indies. The rule did not apply to other colonies, so natives of Surinam and the Dutch Antilles were entitled to keep their Dutch citizenship.
Foreigners who wanted to acquire the Dutch citizenship had to be of age, living on Dutch territory for at least five years, and had to give up their previous nationality.
Naturalisation of foreigners took place by individual act. Every application was decided upon in Parliament. The costs of a naturalisation procedure were fairly high.
The act was in force (though subject to numerous reforms) until 1985.

[The Lawspeaker]

My daughter even has Irish citizenship and has never been to Ireland. Once an Irish citizen always an Irish citizen. You can even pass it on to the grandkids. Ireland never had that sexist law in regards to the mother.

Maybe Ireland has a right of return. We don't have that one and I think the law existed for a very good reason. I think we should revert to it now as it would solve a great number of issues. Remember: with freedom comes responsibility. And they have shown not to be handle that responsibility.

[Grace O'Malley]

This would have been the provisions of the old Act (https://www.perfar.eu/policies/nationality-act-12-december-1892-governing-netherlands-nationality-and-residence):

That quite old though. That was back in the good old days when women were second class citizens. :)

[The Lawspeaker]

Indeed: since the father would be foreign, the child should not be conferred Dutch citizenship and the costs for her indiscretion ought to be for the woman alone. She made her own decision and so she should live with it. Likewise: Dutch men who sleep around are viewed with disdain, so why should be a woman who does the same receive state assistance ?

[The Lawspeaker]

That quite old though. That was back in the good old days when women were second class citizens. :)

You mean: back in the days when men were expected to work 12 hours a day, had to serve in the military and when only 60 percent of Dutch men had the vote ? In fact: in parts of the country, it was the custom that, while the man officially controlled the financial arrangements, the employers usually gave his wages to his wife who then gave him a small allowance.


Tell me more about second class citizens..

[Grace O'Malley]

Maybe Ireland has a right of return. We don't have that one and I think the law existed for a very good reason. I think we should revert to it now as it would solve a great number of issues. Remember: with freedom comes responsibility. And they have shown not to be handle that responsibility.

And men handle responsibility? Some men are like tomcats and go around impregnating loads of women. It's a two-way street. There are responsible people and irresponsible people. It's not a gender thing.

Anyway the clock isn't going to be turned back and they aren't going to take away women's citizenship.

If you are an Irish citizen you retain it and can have dual citizenship. Most countries will allow you to pass your citizenship onto your children i.e Britain, US, Australia and many European countries as well. Not all of them allow grandparent citizenship but Ireland is one of the countries that does.

[The Lawspeaker]

And men handle responsibility? Some men are like tomcats and go around impregnating loads of women. It's a two-way street. There are responsible people and irresponsible people. It's not a gender thing.

Anyway the clock isn't going to be turned back and they aren't going to take away women's citizenship.

If you are an Irish citizen you retain it and can have dual citizenship. Most countries will allow you to pass your citizenship onto your children i.e Britain, US, Australia and many European countries as well. Not all of them allow grandparent citizenship but Ireland is one of the countries that does.

Well, then we can expect Europe to have an Islamic future. I wonder how many rights the women will have then. But that's no longer our problem by then: the men will be dead or converted, the women ... well like in Rotherham.

[Grace O'Malley]

Indeed: since the father would be foreign, the child should not be conferred Dutch citizenship and the costs for her indiscretion ought to be for the woman alone. She made her own decision and so she should live with it. Likewise: Dutch men who sleep around are viewed with disdain, so why should be a woman who does the same receive state assistance ?

I think it is because the child suffers. Most people don't like children going hungry and it isn't going to do countries any good to have an underclass. It causes a lot of social problems. Also it is very unfair because as you know the woman will bear the brunt because she carries the child and the man can just walk away. Women that have children to multiple partners though are very irresponsible as most people would agree. But you can't take it out on the children. If a man was in the same boat i.e. left with the children he also receives state assistance. It is primarily to look after the children.

[The Lawspeaker]

I think it is because the child suffers. Most people don't like children going hungry and it isn't going to do countries any good to have an underclass. It causes a lot of social problems. Also it is very unfair because as you know the woman will bear the brunt because she carries the child and the man can just walk away. Women that have children to multiple partners though are very irresponsible as most people would agree. But you can't take it out on the children. If a man was in the same boat i.e. left with the children he also receives state assistance. It is primarily to look after the children.

Had the woman been more sexually responsible and found a nice Dutch guy to settle down with, she wouldn't have been in this position. Right or right ? There is a reason why there is a social stigma on women who hang out with that crowd.

[Grace O'Malley]

Well, then we can expect Europe to have an Islamic future. I wonder how many rights the women will have then. But that's no longer our problem by then: the men will be dead or converted, the women ... well like in Rotherham.

That another kettle of fish. Europe is letting in a lot of migrants. You will have an Islamic future if you keep letting in a lot of Muslim immigrants. The Dutch have been letting in migrants for decades.

[Grace O'Malley]

Had the woman been more sexually responsible and found a nice Dutch guy to settle down with, she wouldn't have been in this position. Right or right ? There is a reason why there is a social stigma on women who hang out with that crowd.

Are you with a nice Dutch woman? You should be doing your part for the future of the Netherlands and having nice Dutch children. :)

[The Lawspeaker]

That another kettle of fish. Europe is letting in a lot of migrants. You will have an Islamic future if you keep letting in a lot of Muslim immigrants. The Dutch have been letting in migrants for decades.
Indeed. You know what parties have ? The parties that get voted on, for the most part, by women. The Left (https://www.ad.nl/politiek/vrouwen-vallen-voor-jesse-mannen-gaan-voor-mark~a47ec4c5/).

[Grace O'Malley]

Indeed. You know what parties have ? The parties that get voted on, for the most part, by women. The Left (https://www.ad.nl/politiek/vrouwen-vallen-voor-jesse-mannen-gaan-voor-mark~a47ec4c5/).

There must be Dutch men voting for those parties as well? Is there more Dutch women than men?

[The Lawspeaker]

There must be Dutch men voting for those parties as well? Is there more Dutch women than men?

Actually: it depends on the region - in many of the university cities (https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2018/34/jonge-vrouwenoverschot-in-veel-universiteitssteden) (which are basically our key stone states because we use proportional representation), there is a majority of women (particularly in Amsterdam). That means that votes coming in from the countryside have less value than those coming in from the cities. So, bluntly put, it's the female vote that decides the outcome of elections.

[Grace O'Malley]

Actually: it depends on the region - in many of the university cities (https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2018/34/jonge-vrouwenoverschot-in-veel-universiteitssteden) (which are basically our key stone states because we use proportional representation), there is a majority of women (particularly in Amsterdam). That means that votes coming in from the countryside have less value than those coming in from the cities. So, bluntly put, it's the female vote that decides the outcome of elections.

Thanks that's interesting. Are the Dutch getting a bit tired of immigration or are they still the tolerant and open people that they are portrayed as?

[The Lawspeaker]

And when you then add the fact that most ministers of government come from the West and that most parties only focus on the situation in the West, you get a politics that's dangerously unbalanced.

[The Lawspeaker]

Thanks that's interesting. Are the Dutch getting a bit tired of immigration or are they still the tolerant and open people that they are portrayed as?

Amsterdam will probably never learn. California is like Texas compared to those fools. But the rest of the country (particularly the province) has had enough. Now we are seeing some changes in the fact that even in the cities, people are getting off their asses and abandoning the Left. But we're talking about the Netherlands here, so compare it to an oil tanker trying to turn around in the middle of the Nieuwe Waterweg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nieuwe_Waterweg).

[Thanas Django]

Mgtow started off as a bunch of playas who saw marriage and said "no, not for me" and on the way got inundated with the Bobby Martens of this world. Kind of like Germany opening doors to millions of illegal economic migrants.

I am tradcon as well. I don't care about mgtow.

[Grace O'Malley]

Amsterdam will probably never learn. California is like Texas compared to those fools. But the rest of the country (particularly the province) has had enough. Now we are seeing some changes in the fact that even in the cities, people are getting off their asses and abandoning the Left. But we're talking about the Netherlands here, so compare it to an oil tanker trying to turn around in the middle of the Nieuwe Waterweg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nieuwe_Waterweg).

Fair enough as well. I'm not racist but I don't agree with Europe's present policies. There should be a proper balance and no country should lose it's ethnic majority. That won't go well in the long term. People that cry racism are not natural if they want their country overrun by others and they want their own ethnicity to disappear.

[The Lawspeaker]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Tweede_Kamerverkiezingen_2012.png/290px-Tweede_Kamerverkiezingen_2012.png

I think several factors contribute to the now-changing situations:



The 2015- 201.. migration wave
The treatment meeted out to the citizens of Oranje (Pop. 150) which received 700 migrants, protested, was mangled by the riot police, and then further enriched with 700 more. The people didn't forget that one.
The main pro-migration party PvdA loses the cities in 2017 (as well as rural Groningen - their former stronghold). Eventhough they lose the cities to two pro-migrant parties, those are smaller and have fewer influence. (you need 60.000 votes to have one seat - most rural municipalities might not even earn you one seat).


2017:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Tweede_Kamerverkiezingen_2017.svg/1200px-Tweede_Kamerverkiezingen_2017.svg.png

[The Lawspeaker]

Fair enough as well. I'm not racist but I don't agree with Europe's present policies. There should be a proper balance and no country should lose it's ethnic majority. That won't go well in the long term. People that cry racism are not natural if they want their country overrun by others and they want their own ethnicity to disappear.

I suspect that the key lays in voting against the cities. By now, people should know how they vote, so the rest of the country should exactly the opposite. That way their ideas might be nullified. Whatever the cities support, oppose it. Together the cities may have some 8 million people. The rest of the country has some 8 to 9 million as well.