Genetics Contradicts Geography

[Peterski]

In NE Europe genes contradict geography.

Compare this PCA plot with Geography:

Genes: https://www.ancestrycdn.com/dna/static/images/ethnicity/help/PCA.jpg

https://www.ancestrycdn.com/dna/static/images/ethnicity/help/PCA.jpg

Geography: https://i.imgur.com/2IxmyV9.png

https://i.imgur.com/2IxmyV9.png

[Grace O'Malley]

Compare this PCA plot with Geography:

Genes: https://www.ancestrycdn.com/dna/static/images/ethnicity/help/PCA.jpg

https://www.ancestrycdn.com/dna/static/images/ethnicity/help/PCA.jpg

Geography: https://i.imgur.com/2IxmyV9.png

https://i.imgur.com/2IxmyV9.png

Just a guess but has it something to do with Steppe ancestry? Also East Germany is more Slavic so a bridge between western Germans and the more Slavic Russian populations. I've commented on the other thread how spread out Germans are and this is most likely the reason. There is a lot of genetic diversity in Germany in a European context. Also look how Germany spreads from Scandinavia to France.

[Peterski]

IIRC Davidski noticed this years ago and that's why he supports the Western Origin of Slavs Theory.

He thinks that Slavs originated between Balts and Germans, and expanded from there into Russia.

[Peterski]

Just a guess but has it something to do with Steppe ancestry?

Not really, since Russians/East Slavs have about as much of Steppe ancestry as Lithuanians/Balts:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?264100-European-populations-ranked-by-Ancient-Admixture

Yamnaya Samara

(...)
Russian Kursk - 54.6%
Russian Orel - 54.2%
Belarusian - 52.8%
Russian Smolensk - 52.6%
Russian Voronez - 52.6%
Lithuanian - 52.4%
Ukrainian - 52%
(...)

[Grace O'Malley]

IIRC Davidski noticed this years ago and that's why he supports the Western Origin of Slavs Theory.

He thinks that Slavs originated between Balts and Germans, and expanded from there into Russia.

Well he knows his stuff although I remember years ago he said that R1b wasn't Steppe but he goes with the evidence. Although didn't most populations go from Russia into Europe not the other way round?

[Hulu]

Russians have more "southern" ancestry, which brings them more south than Balts. It does make sense geographically if you think about it. They almost border Turkey. I wonder what's the diversity between Russians.

[Peterski]

Also East Germany is more Slavic

How does it matter? We see that Balts plot to the east of Russians, despite living to the west of them - that's the point.

Even if East Germans did not exist, it would still be the case that Russians are more "genetically western" than Latvians.

[Grace O'Malley]

Not really, since Russians/East Slavs have about as much of Steppe ancestry as Lithuanians/Balts:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?264100-European-populations-ranked-by-Ancient-Admixture

Yamnaya Samara

(...)
Russian Kursk - 54.6%
Russian Orel - 54.2%
Belarusian - 52.8%
Russian Smolensk - 52.6%
Russian Voronez - 52.6%
Lithuanian - 52.4%
Ukrainian - 52%
(...)

That Yamana Samara is spread all across the North part of Europe in quite similar percentages all the way to Ireland. I think also the Balts appear to be a bit more isolated so possibly drift as well? What's your theory?

[Grace O'Malley]

Russians have more "southern" ancestry, which brings them more south than Balts. It does make sense geographically if you think about it. They almost border Turkey. I wonder what's the diversity between Russians.

Yes I'm sure that's part of it as well. Russians are a big and diverse population.

[Peterski]

And Bronze Age Balts were even more "eastern" than modern Balts, especially BA Latvians:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/03/beakers-vs-modern-day-northern-europeans.html

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/6UI2Af21RMJR-n6yC6PnIZuhGpyNtR1o069h6MA-htyAruTlLPoYCyVtUKtD9NfPgxDcKkRnIrAsI10BJpFZ=w1366-h626-rw

^^^
Baltic BA samples in the lower left corner from Latvia fall outside of modern Latvian variation.


That Yamana Samara is spread all across the North part of Europe in quite similar percentages all the way to Ireland. I think also the Balts appear to be a bit more isolated so possibly drift as well? What's your theory?

Bronze Age Balts were even more isolated / more drifted than modern Balts.

So no, that's not any recent drift - was present there already in the Bronze Age.


Russians are a big and diverse population.

Actually quite the opposite - they are pretty homogenous for their large size.

Differences are only on the fringes of Russian settlement, where they mixed.

[Grace O'Malley]

And Bronze Age Balts were even more "eastern" than modern Balts, especially BA Latvians:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/03/beakers-vs-modern-day-northern-europeans.html

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/6UI2Af21RMJR-n6yC6PnIZuhGpyNtR1o069h6MA-htyAruTlLPoYCyVtUKtD9NfPgxDcKkRnIrAsI10BJpFZ=w1366-h626-rw

^^^
Baltic BA samples in the lower left corner from Latvia fall outside of modern Latvian variation.



Bronze Age Balts were even more isolated / more drifted than modern Balts.

So no, that's not any recent drift - was present there already in the Bronze Age.

Yes but it still will show on dna plots. Look at the Finns and how they aren't particularly close to their Scandinavian neighbours?

[Peterski]

Siberian Russians are about as Siberian as White Americans are Native American.

Russians colonized the land and mostly displaced its Native Siberian inhabitants.

[Polish phenotypes]

Yes but it still will show on dna plots. Look at the Finns and how they aren't particularly close to their Scandinavian neighbours?

Indeed @Peterski consider this map also:

http://www.gnxp.com/blog/uploaded_images/europevariation-752360.jpg

This one is from Discovery Magazine.

Consider the Finnish forming a cluster on their own. On this map also the British Isles form practically their own cluster, with some dots in proximity to Norway. Germans are really widespread, with DE1 being close to Polish dots and Swedish dots, while DE2 is spread towards France and Britain.

[Peterski]

Finns are Non-Indo-Europeans though so it is a different story.

I'm more curious about Balts.

And no, it's not about N1c - Bronze Age Balts had no any N1c.

[Peterski]

Indeed @Peterski consider this map also:

http://www.gnxp.com/blog/uploaded_images/europevariation-752360.jpg

This one is from Discovery Magazine.

I see no Balts or Russians there.

[Polish phenotypes]

Finns are Non-Indo-Europeans though so it is a different story.

I'm more curious about Balts.

And no, it's not about N1c - Bronze Age Balts had no any N1c.

But isn't the "core" of Finnish admixture the Corded Ware Nordic migration? One British historian has argued that only approximately 5% of total genome is Uralic as such. (I am new to these topics so I wouldn't know)


I see no Balts or Russians there.

Oh, indeed, there isn't. It's from Discovery Magazine.

[Grace O'Malley]

But isn't the "core" of Finnish admixture the Corded Ware Nordic migration? One British historian has argued that only approximately 5% of total genome is Uralic as such. (I am new to these topics so I wouldn't know)



Oh, indeed, there isn't. It's from Discovery Magazine.

I'm sure Peterski will answer but I don't think Finnish are Corded Ware. Corded Ware appear to be R1a and most Finnish are N1c and I1a so they don't descend from Corded Ware or are very Indo-European.

[Leto]

Siberian Russians are about as Siberian as White Americans are Native American.

Russians colonized the land and mostly displaced its Native Siberian inhabitants.
The population density in Siberia was extremely low, the Far East was practically uninhabited when the first Russians came over there. And all major Siberian ethnic groups still exist to this day, in Yakutia they are even a majority.

[Peterski]

The population density in Siberia was extremely low

Yes, just like in North America: https://proceedings.caaconference.org/files/2000/35_Snow_CAA_2000.pdf

[Mingle]

This probably comes from Baltic people heavily mixing with Finnic people. I know that Russians also mixed with them, but I doubt it was to the same degree. Proto-Finnic originated in the Baltic region, there is still one Finnic-speaking country in that region, and another part of that region was Finnic-speaking (Livonian) until quite recently. Also, keep in mind that Latvia and Lithuania are pretty small countries and mixing with Finnics would have a much larger effect on their small population than if a very massive population were to mix with Finnics.

[Peterski]

This probably comes from Baltic people heavily mixing with Finnic people.

No, because it was even more extreme in Bronze Age Balts, before they mixed with any Finns (and in fact all of Bronze Age Baltic males tested so far turned out R1a, it seems that there was no N1c there back in the Bronze Age, or was in much smaller amounts than today).


Proto-Finnic originated in the Baltic region

Genetic studies show that Balts were first in this area, and Finns came later.

This theory by Finnish linguists confirms:

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomensynty.html

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi2.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi3.jpg

[Mingle]

No, because it was even more extreme in Bronze Age Balts, before they mixed with any Finns (and in fact all of Bronze Age Baltic males tested so far turned out R1a, it seems that there was no N1c there back in the Bronze Age, or was in much smaller amounts than today).



Genetic studies show that Balts were first in this area, and Finns came later.

Then could it be because Balts have more Steppe that pulls them east?

[gıulıoımpa]

Well,it's all about migrations. And actually looking at baltic people , the average baltic looks indeed more eastern than the average eruopean russian.

[michal3141]

In NE Europe genes contradict geography.

Compare this PCA plot with Geography:

Genes: https://www.ancestrycdn.com/dna/static/images/ethnicity/help/PCA.jpg

https://www.ancestrycdn.com/dna/static/images/ethnicity/help/PCA.jpg

Geography: https://i.imgur.com/2IxmyV9.png

https://i.imgur.com/2IxmyV9.png

I have my own pet theory why Balts are the most extreme and Russians are between Balts and Germans.
It is related to the hunter-gatherers (HG) vs neolithic ancestry. Balts have the highest HG related admixture and the lowest neolithic out of all these groups. Russians are in-between and Germans have the highest neolithic admixture.
Balts are the most HG/Baltic because they were relatively the most isolated group from the neolithic expansion.

And my favorite PCA ever below showing both ancient and modern populations:

https://ufile.io/xqvsx

If you zoom it (a decent zoom is needed), you will see that indeed Balts are shifted towards hunters-gatherers more than Russians and Germans. (Germans are more shifted towards neolithics than Russians).

[Peterski]

Another example of genes contradicting geography is Slovenia (link):

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgene.2018.00551/full