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Teutone
10-24-2018, 08:48 PM
Very interesting Video I just saw, looks like the middle east was very advanced before spread of wahabism and the effects of western imperialism, similar videos can be found on Afghanistan or Egypt.


https://youtu.be/OJ4iB0x0BEU

Teutone
10-24-2018, 08:59 PM
https://youtu.be/DN1o86ubD8c

Peterski
10-24-2018, 09:00 PM
Same in Iran at that time.

Marmara
10-24-2018, 09:05 PM
Iraq is under Iranian influence, most of Iraq is Shia and Shias tend to be lower class and uneducated and Sunnis more educated.

It's not the spread of Wahhabism, Wahhabis never had much influence in Iraq. It's again the stupidity of Middle-Easterners, they could not coexist peacefully so they needed an oppressive dictator like Saddam to keep them calm. This is more like returning to natura state.

Indeed West can also be blamed for two things, one is the Sykes-Picot agreement in which they partitioned Middle-East without any ethnic boundaries. There is absolutely no reason for Kuwait to be independent. It's a piece of oil rich land which was given to the native Arab tribe who were later puppeted, landlocking Iraq and preventing it's population from profiting the oil revenue, and second is the American intervention.

Smart decision for them though, it's all Middle-Easterners themselves to be blamed. They could not just sit on a table and discuss about reorganizing the borders.

Teutone
10-24-2018, 09:07 PM
Iraq is under Iranian influence, most of Iraq is Shia and Shias tend to be lower class and uneducated and Sunnis more educated.

It's not the spread of Wahhabism, Wahhabis never had much influence in Iraq. It's again the stupidity of Middle-Easterners, they could not coexist peacefully so they needed an oppressive dictator like Saddam to keep them calm. This is more like returning to natura state.

Indeed West can also be blamed for two things, one is the Sykes-Picot agreement in which they partitioned Middle-East without any ethnic boundaries. There is absolutely no reason for Kuwait to be independent. It's a piece of oil rich land which was given to the native Arab tribe who were later puppeted, landlocking Iraq and preventing it's population from profiting the oil revenue, and second is the American intervention.

Smart decision for them though, it's all Middle-Easterners themselves to be blamed. They could not just sit on a table and discuss about reorganizing the borders.

Wahabism is the source of Islamic State and Al Quaida preventing to bring any stability to the country.

Marmara
10-24-2018, 09:12 PM
Wahabism is the source of Islamic State and Al Quaida preventing to bring any stability to the country.

It was not only ISIS that really fucked up Iraq.

Hashd Shaabi, shia militias are similar to ISIS with their techniques. There is an incredible level of backwardness and savagery there, it's the real reason.

Teutone
10-24-2018, 09:18 PM
It was not only ISIS that really fucked up Iraq.

Hashd Shaabi, shia militias are similar to ISIS with their techniques. There is an incredible level of backwardness and savagery there, it's the real reason.

Shias took over political power trough elections after US invasion, while the radicalized sunni population saw and in parts still sees elections as haram. Wahabism is invloved in every aspect of instability in the islamic world, I dont know any country that doesnt face the problem? And in Syria, Iraq, Egypt and Afghanistan its the problem in a large scale.

Check the numbers of Saudi citizens doing hidschra and the way how saudis finance militant groups in Iraq and Syria to political wahabi groups like the muslim brotherhood.

Marmara
10-24-2018, 09:24 PM
Shias took over political power trough elections after US invasion, while the radicalized sunni population saw and in parts still sees elections as haram. Wahabism is invloved in every aspect of instability in the islamic world, I dont know any country that doesnt face the problem? And in Syria, Iraq, Egypt and Afghanistan its the problem in a large scale.

Check the numbers of Saudi citizens doing hidschra and the way how saudis finance militant groups in Iraq and Syria to political wahabi groups like the muslim brotherhood.

You are VERY wrong. Shias win because they are simply the majority of Iraq.

Iranian revolution is one thing that really provoked Middle-East. Iranian Islamic Regime is evil and many Iranians hate it. They use Shia minorities to assert their dominance, creating and funding religious militias, causing sectarianism.

Teutone
10-24-2018, 09:28 PM
You are VERY wrong. Shias win because they are simply the majority of Iraq.

Iranian revolution is one thing that really provoked Middle-East. Iranian Islamic Regime is evil and many Iranians hate it. They use Shia minorities to assert their dominance, creating and funding religious militias, causing sectarianism.

They are a overrepresented mayority in Iraq, even bringing concern to the american troops after the first elections, because they went and vote while the sunnis stayed away.

Shia extremism in Iran had a similar negative impact but its nowhere close to the wahabi influence and capability.

Look at Lebanon and Hezbollah and compare them to the Islamic state, both islamist lunatics, BUT clearly the islamic state is a way different scale.

Georgia
10-24-2018, 10:10 PM
Although I’m pretty sure that life was far from idillic even back then(a few women dressed in mini skirts isn’t the equivalent of paradise),watching these videos you realize how sad is the fact that the countries of Middle East rejected western modernity and turned into Medieval fanatic hellholes.

Many people claim that the catalyst in the Islamic World was the Revolution in Iran and that Sunni fundamentalism was a reaction to the Iranian revolution that unleashed the first wave of Islamic fundamentalism and claimed leadership throughout the Islamic world and in the struggle against Israel.

However,it’s important to remember that Sunni fundamentalism predates the Iranian Revolution and has its roots in Saudi Arabia's ideology of Wahhabism.

Sunni revolutionary movements appeared in the form of the Muslim Brotherhood in the 60s and 70s, but were kept in check by the secular Arab nationalist ideology expressed by Nasser and the Baath parties in Syria and Iraq.

The Kingdom of Saudis was pretty isolated until the mid 20th century, but when the oil came on stream, they had the cash to back an expansion of their ideology beyond their borders. It was Saudi money that enabled the Brotherhood to gain traction in North Africa.

The Afghan jihad was a result of Saudi trained clerics going to Afghanistan to counter the Soviet invasion - this led to the formation of the Mujahideen.

The US has consistently protected and supported the major source and sponsor of religious fundamentalism in the region which is Saudi Arabia, while helping to suppress the progressive political elements who (if they had been allowed to succeed) would have given this strategically important region the kind of political independence and self determination which the US could not tolerate.

Anyway,great thread,Teutone :)

StonyArabia
10-24-2018, 10:15 PM
Wahabis and Islamic brotherhood are two different ideologies and have little in common, and are actually rivals. Iraq was the most advanced Mideast nation, and it revived well after the first destruction by America and it's European allies actually, but the second Gulf war or the war of 2003, had finished it completely off, and the Americans and their allies empowered sectarian parties Shia ones for their own purposes. The sanctions also caused Iraq to be completely crippled. However in the Western regions the Americans and their European allies could never subdue us, and the loses were great but still their casualties were heavy. In fact we inflicted several defeats before they used heavy weapons against us. Of course the situation is far more complex.

LOL at Shias being more peaceful

Teutone
10-24-2018, 10:23 PM
Wahabis and Islamic brotherhood are two different ideologies and have little in common, and are actually rivals. Iraq was the most advanced Mideast nation, and it revived well after the first destruction by America and it's European allies actually, but the second Gulf war or the war of 2003, had finished it completely off, and the Americans and their allies empowered sectarian parties Shia ones for their own purposes. The sanctions also caused Iraq to be completely crippled. However in the Western regions the Americans and their European allies could never subdue us, and the loses were great but still their casualties were heavy. In fact we inflicted several defeats before they used heavy weapons against us. Of course the situation is far more complex.

LOL at Shias being more peaceful

The Muslim Brotherhood is the "moderare" arm of the wahabis in KSA, you search for extern reasons for everything anyway.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/06/saudi-brotherhood-friends-foes-170623093039202.html

Georgia
10-24-2018, 10:27 PM
Wahabis and Islamic brotherhood are two different ideologies and have little in common, and are actually rivals. Iraq was the most advanced Mideast nation, and it revived well after the first destruction by America and it's European allies actually, but the second Gulf war or the war of 2003, had finished it completely off, and the Americans and their allies empowered sectarian parties Shia ones for their own purposes. The sanctions also caused Iraq to be completely crippled. However in the Western regions the Americans and their European allies could never subdue us, and the loses were great but still their casualties were heavy. In fact we inflicted several defeats before they used heavy weapons against us. Of course the situation is far more complex.

LOL at Shias being more peaceful
In what ways Wahhabism and the ideology of Brotherhood are rival?

StonyArabia
10-24-2018, 10:28 PM
The Muslim Brotherhood is the "moderare" arm of the wahabis in KSA, you search for extern reasons for everything anyway.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/06/saudi-brotherhood-friends-foes-170623093039202.html

Nope. The Muslim brotherhood had originated in Egypt and are actually opposed by KSA. Also the Muslim brotherhood pan-Islamism is very different. Not to mention the war in Yemen is because the Muslim brotherhood and the Houthis have allied with one another. The Muslim brotherhood ideology is very different and in fact has Sufi influence. Sufism is completely different from Salafism and Wahabism. This also explain why the KSA and the Gulf nations had crippled the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt Morsi. The Muslim brotherhood for example has been close to Iran more so recently. Hamas is branch of the Muslim brotherhood and is supported by Iran.

Teutone
10-24-2018, 10:30 PM
In what ways Wahhabism and the ideology of Brotherhood are rival?

The one thing is that a real wahabi would never participate in a election or in a political system that is not sharia law based. The muslim brotherhood is for people realizing the caliphate and in the end sharia law, has to be established trough a political process, but at the end both the militant and political arm of saudi influence wants sharia law.

Teutone
10-24-2018, 10:33 PM
Nope. The Muslim brotherhood had originated in Egypt and are actually opposed by KSA. Also the Muslim brotherhood pan-Islamism is very different. Not to mention the war in Yemen is because the Muslim brotherhood and the Houthis have allied with one another. The Muslim brotherhood ideology is very different and in fact has Sufi influence. Sufism is completely different from Salafism and Wahabism. This also explain why the KSA and the Gulf nations had crippled the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt Morsi. The Muslim brotherhood for example has been close to Iran more so recently. Hamas is branch of the Muslim brotherhood and is supported by Iran.

The Egypt socialist leaders like nasser opposed KSA, the population not at all, a big number of them was working in saudi arabia and were influenced there by wahabism.

Funny you mention Hamas who has a dispute with Iran for OPENLY ally with the FSA. Mursi was Saudi and Erdogan backed such as FSA.

StonyArabia
10-24-2018, 10:35 PM
In what ways Wahhabism and the ideology of Brotherhood are rival?

Muslim brotherhood is more "liberal", and has strong Sufi aka mystical influence and strong pan-Islamist sentiment. Wahabism is more of puritanical movement and it's ideology was actually founded in the Levant by a Sunni Kurd named Ibn Tammyiah who had inspired the work of Muhammed bin Abd Al-Wahab in Arabia. Wahabism is also more literalist. They are both Sunni but they differ in their viewpoints. Wahabism also is not really political movement or even a true sect, it's more of an idea, because it could be followed or not, you can choose and pick. Well the Muslim brotherhood is more organized and has its ideology and tents intact.

StonyArabia
10-24-2018, 10:37 PM
The Egypt socialist leaders like nasser opposed KSA, the population not at all, a big number of them was working in saudi arabia and were influenced there by wahabism.

Funny you mention Hamas who has a dispute with Iran for OPENLY ally with the FSA. Mursi was Saudi and Erdogan backed such as FSA.

Mursi was never supported by KSA. KSA brought his down fall lol, they openly supported Sisi. Qatar and Erdogan did back Mursi however.

Teutone
10-24-2018, 10:40 PM
Mursi was never supported by KSA. KSA brought his down fall lol, they openly supported Sisi. Qatar and Erdogan did back Mursi however.

What was his first foreign trip?

To KSA

https://images.csmonitor.com/csm/2012/07/0711-egypt.jpg?alias=standard_900x600

The Lawspeaker
10-24-2018, 10:40 PM
Nope. The Muslim brotherhood had originated in Egypt and are actually opposed by KSA. Also the Muslim brotherhood pan-Islamism is very different. Not to mention the war in Yemen is because the Muslim brotherhood and the Houthis have allied with one another. The Muslim brotherhood ideology is very different and in fact has Sufi influence. Sufism is completely different from Salafism and Wahabism. This also explain why the KSA and the Gulf nations had crippled the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt Morsi. The Muslim brotherhood for example has been close to Iran more so recently. Hamas is branch of the Muslim brotherhood and is supported by Iran.

I remember this BBC series (it must be like ten years old)... called The Trap (I believe), in which it was made apparent that the Muslim Brotherhood was influenced (and so were the Iranians, the Algerian Islamic terrorists, the Saudi's and the others) by the ideals of positive freedom which sprang forth from the likes of Sartre. Both they and French mid-20th century philosophy (which was influenced by the French Revolution and by Marxism) believed that a society could only be "liberated" (altered) in a sea of blood.. In other words: the old order had to be completely destroyed and the people "liberated" by traumatising them out of their old existence.

StonyArabia
10-24-2018, 10:42 PM
What was his first foreign trip?

To KSA

https://images.csmonitor.com/csm/2012/07/0711-egypt.jpg?alias=standard_900x600

Sure a picture means nothing. KSA brought his down fall. Also Mursi was making Egypt close to Iran and thus KSA/UAE brought his down fall. Qatar supports the Muslim brotherhood, and backed Mursi and so did Erdogan. The Muslim brotherhood is very different from Wahabism.

Teutone
10-24-2018, 10:50 PM
Sure a picture means nothing. KSA brought his down fall. Also Mursi was making Egypt close to Iran and thus KSA/UAE brought his down fall. Qatar supports the Muslim brotherhood, and backed Mursi and so did Erdogan. The Muslim brotherhood is very different from Wahabism.

Google it yourself, his first state visit was to KSA which is a strong sign of support, and Qatar and KSA often end up supporting the same groups completly ignoring their own disputes.

Basically every sunni militia in Syria.

At the end KSA,QATAR AND TURKEY form to be a passive alliance against the Shia halfmoon, again very visual in Syria.

The Lawspeaker
10-24-2018, 10:51 PM
I remember this BBC series (it must be like ten years old)... called The Trap (I believe), in which it was made apparent that the Muslim Brotherhood was influenced (and so were the Iranians, the Algerian Islamic terrorists, the Saudi's and the others) by the ideals of positive freedom which sprang forth from the likes of Sartre. Both they and French mid-20th century philosophy (which was influenced by the French Revolution and by Marxism) believed that a society could only be "liberated" (altered) in a sea of blood.. In other words: the old order had to be completely destroyed and the people "liberated" by traumatising them out of their old existence.
I am referring to this one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trap_(TV_series)). Look it up online - it's really worth your time.

StonyArabia
10-24-2018, 10:59 PM
Google it yourself, his first state visit was to KSA which is a strong sign of support, and Qatar and KSA often end up supporting the same groups completly ignoring their own disputes.

Basically every sunni militia in Syria.

At the end KSA,QATAR AND TURKEY form to be a passive alliance against the Shia halfmoon, again very visual in Syria.

With all due respect, KSA and UAE don't support the Muslim brotherhood. They never have and never will, in fact they are fighting with them right now in Yemen. Also the Muslim brotherhood is an ally of Shia powers like Iran. Also KSA visiting Egypt is nothing more than diplomatic relations, but things quickly soured. Also the two movements are very different from each other and their application. For example some of the Wahabi groups called Ikhwans which means the brother are different from what is known as the Muslim brotherhood, despite being known as the brothers. This group also would rebel against the monarchy and the British, they also gave the British a hard time in Jordan when they invaded it. However the two groups are opposed to each other. Most Sunni militas are either nationalist like in the case of Iraq which means secular, or have some Wahabi elements, but almost none of them are of the Muslim brotherhood. In fact the Muslim brotherhood in Iraq has seats because they also did treason, just speaks enough, and they are the only Sunni party to do so. Thus the secular nationalists and Wahabist hate them. They are seen as traitors who came with America just like the Shia parties that were empowered by America and it's allies. KSA for example had supported secular nationalist groups in Iraq. However alliances in the Mideast are very complex and shift

Marmara
10-24-2018, 11:00 PM
Google it yourself, his first state visit was to KSA which is a strong sign of support, and Qatar and KSA often end up supporting the same groups completly ignoring their own disputes.

Basically every sunni militia in Syria.

At the end KSA,QATAR AND TURKEY form to be a passive alliance against the Shia halfmoon, again very visual in Syria.

You have no idea what you are talking about, have you forgotten that KSA, Egypt and other Gulf states issued embargo on Qatar, accusing it to side with Iran, and Iran and Turkey helped Qatar out of Embargo?

Teutone
10-24-2018, 11:05 PM
Google it yourself, his first state visit was to KSA which is a strong sign of support, and Qatar and KSA often end up supporting the same groups completly ignoring their own disputes.

Basically every sunni militia in Syria.

At the end KSA,QATAR AND TURKEY form to be a passive alliance against the Shia halfmoon, again very visual in Syria.


You have no idea what you are talking about, have you forgotten that KSA, Egypt and other Gulf states issued embargo on Qatar, accusing it to side with Iran, and Iran and Turkey helped Qatar out of Embargo?

You confuse pragmatic relationships with alliances, Egypt has no significant shia population so it doesnt have to fear Iranian influence.

Qatar has changed his position to Iran after the Bahrain shia protests, same time when Mursi was around. The whole Shia uprising ended in a pragmatic alliance against shia influence in general by KSA and Qatar.

In Yemen the muslim brotherhood has a maginal role, Islamist sunni, official government and houthis play the big roles.

Teutone
10-24-2018, 11:09 PM
You have no idea what you are talking about, have you forgotten that KSA, Egypt and other Gulf states issued embargo on Qatar, accusing it to side with Iran, and Iran and Turkey helped Qatar out of Embargo?

Qatar went openly after Iran after the Bahrain uprising, also you see in Syria that Iran backed militias and qatar backed militias fight eachother.

I said that KSA and Qatar have disputes but forget those in conflicts like syria which can easily be seen by the sunni forces there.

never denied the conflict of ksa and qatar on other fields

StonyArabia
10-24-2018, 11:16 PM
You confuse pragmatic relationships with alliances, Egypt has no significant shia population so it doesnt have to fear Iranian influence.

Qatar has changed his position to Iran after the Bahrain shia protests, same time when Mursi was around. The whole Shia uprising ended in a pragmatic alliance against shia influence in general by KSA and Qatar.

In Yemen the muslim brotherhood has a maginal role, Islamist sunni, official government and houthis play the big roles.

KSA alliance with Israel would pragmatic as the two don't really like each other. The alliance is not true as most people think it is. King Fisal was never fond of Israel or most Westerners to be honest. He was quite the nationalist, so this why he was removed. Egypt allied with Iran, because the Muslim brotherhood is an ally of Iran, and this why in Iraq they are allowed to have seats, because Iraq now is province that the Americans and their allies gave on a gold platter to Iran and it's influence. Iran fears Baathist/nationalists more so than it fears them more so than the Gulf monarchies, just like the Americans did, because their goal was to unite the Arabian peninsula and secure the oil reserves, but the goal of the nationalist is to free Iraq from Anglo-Iranian control. This why nationalists are not allowed to have seats in the current Iraqi government and the Americans dismantled it in a brutal manner, and the MB were allowed to enter.

Teutone
10-24-2018, 11:19 PM
KSA alliance with Israel would pragmatic as the two don't really like each other. The alliance is not true as most people think it is. King Fisal was never fond of Israel or most Westerners to be honest. He was quite the nationalist, so this why he was removed. Egypt allied with Iran, because the Muslim brotherhood is an ally of Iran, and this why in Iraq they are allowed to have seats, because Iraq now is province that the Americans and their allies gave on a gold platter to Iran and it's influence. Iran fears Baathist/nationalists more so than it fears them, just like the Americans did, because their goal was to unite the Arabian peninsula and secure the oil reserves. This why nationalists are not allowed to have seats in the current Iraqi government and the Americans dismantled it in a brutal manner, and the MB were allowed to enter.

KSA alliance with Israel is pragmatic and a unspoken reality such as the KSA support for almost all sunni movements including MB, check the link it was even published by QATARI al jazeera speaking about the MB getting support from KSA and how it shifted.

StonyArabia
10-24-2018, 11:24 PM
KSA alliance with Israel is pragmatic and a unspoken reality such as the KSA support for almost all sunni movements including MB, check the link it was even published by QATARI al jazeera speaking about the MB getting support from KSA and how it shifted.

KSA probably did, but it does not support them anymore, it supports for it's own reason, but it was never a true ally. Iran is far more of true ally to the MB. KSA now supports nationalists and of course Wahabist/Salafi movement. It shifted because when it saw the alliance between the MB with Iran both in Iraq and in Yemen. However since the beginning both were rivals because they are different ideologies one is Sufi mystical and the other is Puritanical. Of course politics are all different. KSA also supports the tribal populations that it see to be extension of itself, especially in Syria and Iraq. Like said the alliances in the ME are complex and their always shift.

Teutone
10-24-2018, 11:28 PM
KSA probably did, but it does not support them anymore, it supports for it's own reason, but it was never a true ally. Iran is far more of true ally to the MB. KSA now supports nationalists and of course Wahabist/Salafi movement. It shifted because when it saw the alliance between the MB with Iran both in Iraq and in Yemen. However since the beginning both were rivals because they are different ideologies one is Sufi mystical and the other is Puritanical. Of course politics are all different. KSA also supports the tribal populations that it see to be extension of itself, especially in Syria and Iraq. Like said the alliances in the ME are complex and their always shift.

Thats what I dont deny, the support for muslim brotherhood stopped and is pointless anyway after they are completly opressed in most countries, but the support before that is a fact.

As you said, the whole middle east is a complex construct of proxy wars, alliances between enemies on some fields and manipulation. Thats why its the most intresting region for me.

This all is based because you are blessed and cursed with the black gold

Faklon
10-26-2018, 11:51 PM
Iraq is under Iranian influence, most of Iraq is Shia and Shias tend to be lower class and uneducated and Sunnis more educated.


Interesting that Iran's Shia theocracy still publishes more books (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_published_per_country_per_year)than "secular Turkey", may show a character in people, Ιranians are also some of the better integrated people in the West to my concern.

The Iraq case is very interesting from a "Greco-Balkan" point view, ex-Ottoman land led to extremism by Saddam, a CIA "friend"/agent (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/revealed-how-the-west-set-saddam-on-the-bloody-road-to-power-1258618.html). Whenever it was the differences with Khomeini expressed by another Islamist and ultimately self-destructing doctrine or just the oil reserves of Khuzestan that CIA didn't manage to get with the Shah, the divide and rule games in Iraq are reminiscent of the ones in the Balkans, Iraq sets the bar high as a post-Ottoman abomination and becomes a candidate for the pantheon of the rayah cucks (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?236462-The-Balkan-Cuck-Bicycle-A-Guide-on-how-to-Escape-the-Cycle-of-Cuckoldry-endemic-in-the-Balkans).

Halgurd
04-16-2020, 05:16 PM
Very interesting Video I just saw, looks like the middle east was very advanced before spread of wahabism and the effects of western imperialism, similar videos can be found on Afghanistan or Egypt.


https://youtu.be/OJ4iB0x0BEU

I think many people forget that Iraq was literally a regional superpower. Saddam Hussein made many mistakes including 1) making enemies of Kurds and Shias 2) going to war with Iran 3) going to war with Kuwait.

If he literally avoided the above points, Iraq would be one of the most prosperous nations in the world today.

Zoro
04-17-2020, 03:04 AM
Very interesting Video I just saw, looks like the middle east was very advanced before spread of wahabism and the effects of western imperialism, similar videos can be found on Afghanistan or Egypt.


https://youtu.be/OJ4iB0x0BEU

Aah yes, nothing like cruising the streets of Baghdad in a Russian Volga car lol. Those things were even around when I was growing up. Foreigners have no idea how ruthless Sadam. These were times when people were scared of their shadows. People were even scared to say something bad about Sadam to their own relatives. Everyone was spying each other and most of Baghdad were Baathist. Even teenagers were coerced into becoming part of Baathist youth groups.

We Kurds though never gave in to his Nazi like tactics.BTW Hitler and Stalin were his heros and he read books like Mein Kampf

PaleoEuropean
04-17-2020, 03:30 AM
Very interesting Video I just saw, looks like the middle east was very advanced before spread of wahabism and the effects of western imperialism, similar videos can be found on Afghanistan or Egypt.


https://youtu.be/OJ4iB0x0BEU

A time of great men and even greater mustaches.

Halgurd
04-17-2020, 12:15 PM
Aah yes, nothing like cruising the streets of Baghdad in a Russian Volga car lol. Those things were even around when I was growing up. Foreigners have no idea how ruthless Sadam. These were times when people were scared of their shadows. People were even scared to say something bad about Sadam to their own relatives. Everyone was spying each other and most of Baghdad were Baathist. Even teenagers were coerced into becoming part of Baathist youth groups.

We Kurds though never gave in to his Nazi like tactics.BTW Hitler and Stalin were his heros and he read books like Mein Kampf

Yeah ofc we had to get rid of him one way or another. He created a police state, men loyal to him were able to do whatever they want and break any laws. People suffered a lot and there was a lack of trust.

Foreigners who fantasise over men like Saddam or Assad wouldn't survive a day in Baathist Iraq.