Slavic, Celto-Germanic, Balkanic and Caucasian DNA of Slavic nations and their neighbours

[Nurzat]

I tried to see if I can model Slavic nations and their neighbours as a mix of Slavic, Balkanic, Celto-Germanic and Caucasian DNA in nMonte (Global25).

the method and the restriction to 4 populations has its flows but broadly it can give an idea of approx how Slavic/Balkanic/Celto-Germanic the nations in the region are.

I used:
Albanians as proxy for Balkanic
Belarusians as proxy for Slavic
Icelandic as proxy for Celto-Germanic
Georgian as proxy for CHG
note that for Russians I used Finnish instead of Albanian, since Balkanic is not relevant for them and this fit was better

Celto-Germanic-Med/Balkan mix populations, Germanic strong prevalence:

German (d=0.6363)
22.5% Albanian
9.17% Belarusian
0% Georgian
68.33 Icelandic

Austrian (d=0.7117)
33.33% Albanian
18.33% Belarusian
0% Georgian
48.33% Icelandic

Slavo-Celto-Germanic populations:

Czech (d=0.7223)
14.17% Albanian
44.17% Belarusian
2.5% Georgian
39.17% Icelandic

Slovak (d=1.0613)
16.67% Albanian
59.17% Belarusian
0% Georgian
24.17% Icelandic

Slavic populations:

Belarusian (source population)

Russian (d=0.7784)
5% Finnish
90.83% Belarusian
4.17% Georgian
0% Icelandic

Ukrainian (d=0.4504)
5.83% Albanian
88.33% Belarusian
2.5% Georgian
3.33% Icelandic

Polish (d=0.4777)
4.17% Albanian
77.5% Belarusian
0.83% Georgian
17.5% Icelandic

Slavo-Balkan populations, Slavic slight prevalence:

Croat (d=0.6649)
37.5% Albanian
42.5% Belarusian
0.83% Georgian
19.17% Icelandic

Slovene (d=0.7796)
35.83% Albanian
46.67% Belarusian
0% Georgian
17.5% Icelandic

balanced Slavo-Balkan mix populations:

Moldovan (d=0.7997)
42.5% Albanian
40.83% Belarusian
4.17% Georgian
12.5% Icelandic

me (d=1.6898)
44.17% Albanian
40.83% Belarusian
1.67% Georgian
13.33% Icelandic

Bosnian (d=0.866)
49.17% Albanian
40.83% Belarusian
0.83% Georgian
9.17% Icelandic

Slavo-Balkan populations, Balkanic strong prevalence:

Macedonian (d=1.2106)
75% Albanian
20% Belarusian
0% Georgian
5% Icelandic

Serb (d=0.8991)
65% Albanian
26.67% Belarusian
0% Georgian
8.33% Icelandic

Montenegrin (d=0.864)
61.67% Albanian
23.33% Belarusian
0% Georgian
15% Icelandic

Balkanic populations:

Albanian (source population)

Greek (d=1.1832)
95.83% Albanian
0% Belarusian
3.33% Georgian
0.83% Icelandic

Bulgarian (d=0.8416)
74.17% Albanian
13.33% Belarusian
3.33% Georgian
9.17% Icelandic

Romanian (d=0.7737)
70% Albanian
15.83% Belarusian
0% Georgian
14.17 Icelandic

balanced Balkan-Ottoman/Persian-Indian mix populations:

Balkan Roma(d=1.6139)
44.17% Albanian
2.5% Belarusian
20% Kurdish
33.33% Punjabi

balanced Balkanic-Slavic-Celto-Germanic mix populations:

Hungarian (d=0.5643)
30.83% Albanian
38.33% Belarusian
0% Georgian
30.83% Icelandic

[Peterski]

Is this based on Global25? Try these models for me and my parents (sent you in a PM).

[Nurzat]

Is this based on Global25? Try these models for me and my parents (sent you in a PM).

will do it home in the evening

[Pubiczar]

Celto-Germanic-Med/Balkan mix populations, Germanic strong prevalence:
German 68.33%+22.5%
Austrian 48.33%+33.33%

Slavo-Celto-Germanic populations:
Czech 44.17%+39.17% (Slavic slight prevalence)
Slovak 59.17%+24.17% (Slavic strong prevalence)

Slavic populations:
Belarussian (source population)
Russian 90.83%
Ukrainian 88.33%
Polish 77.5%

Slavo-Balkan populations, Slavic slight prevalence:
Croats 42.5%+37.5%
Slovenes 46.67%+35.83%

Slavo-Balkan populations, Balkanic slight prevalence:
Moldovans 42.5%+40.83%
me 44.17%+40.83%
Bosnians 49.17%+40.83%

Slavo-Balkan populations, Balkanic strong prevalence:
Macedonian 75%+20% (strongly Balkanic)
Serbs 65%+26.67%
Montenegrin 61.67%+23.33%

Balkanic populations
Albanian (source population)
Greek 95.83%
Bulgarian 74.17%
Romanian 70%

balanced Balkan-Ottoman/Persian-Indian mix populations:
Roma 44.17% B +33.33% I +20% O/P

balanced Balkanic-Slavic-Celto-Germanic mix populations:
Hungarians 38.33% S + 30.83% C/G + 30.83% B

Macedonians are no different than Bulgarians and even more Balkanic, either by phenotype or genotype.
Also the Macedonians have more overlap with the Albanians than the Bulgarians.
No wonder since we are neighbors with them not the Bulgarians.

[Pubiczar]

And I really doubt that the Serbs are more Balkanic than Montenegrins.

[Nurzat]

And I really doubt that the Serbs are more Balkanic than Montenegrins.

no one says they are - the percentages are so close that we can say they have a similar Balkanic vs Slavic genetic mix.

Macedonians vs Bulgarians: same Balkanic score, but Macedonians scored 20% Belarusian, while Bulgarians only 13%, but different samples they would score similarly most probably, it is safe to say they are similar (unlike Romanians vs Moldovans, see the post)

[Pubiczar]

no one says they are - the percentages are so close that we can say they have a similar Balkanic vs Slavic genetic mix.

Macedonians vs Bulgarians: same Balkanic score, but Macedonians scored 20% Belarusian, while Bulgarians only 13%, but different samples they would score similarly most probably, it is safe to say they are similar (unlike Romanians vs Moldovans, see the post)

Can you do me with this nMonte tool?
What coordinates do you need?

[Pubiczar]

no one says they are - the percentages are so close that we can say they have a similar Balkanic vs Slavic genetic mix.

Macedonians vs Bulgarians: same Balkanic score, but Macedonians scored 20% Belarusian, while Bulgarians only 13%, but different samples they would score similarly most probably, it is safe to say they are similar (unlike Romanians vs Moldovans, see the post)

Yeah but still, Macedonians are 75% Balkan, the Bulgarians and even Romanians are less than that.
Icelandic is still northern European population, not Balkanic.
And those fits are just approximation.
So again I doubt that the Bulgarians are as much Slavic as Icelandic.

[Peterski]

will do it home in the evening

Did you use scaled averages from G25?

[Pribislav]

And I really doubt that the Serbs are more Balkanic than Montenegrins.

Montenegrins are more paleo-Balkanic than Serbs.

I did no see yet any Montenegrin who ploting more northern than any Serb.

[Nurzat]

quite tough results. I've tried it with Ukrainian instead of Belarusian and the results seem to get more acceptable

[Peterski]

quite tough results. I've tried it with Ukrainian instead of Belarusian and the results seem to get more acceptable

Try using Avar Hungary Szolad and Golden Horde European as proxies for Slavic.

BTW why just 4 populations? You can run models with 10 or 20 or more.

And add some outlier outgrups like Nganassan and Bantu.

[Jana]

Belarusians are 1/3 Baltic, not the best proxy for medieval Slavs. Only if you can use Polesian samples, otherwise I think Ukraine is better choice (except Western Ukraine).
Icelanders have insular Celtic admix that is completely alien for Slavs, West German would fit more to show Celto-Germanic contribution.

[Peterski]

He should add Lithuanians or Latvians to his model because for example Poles have Baltic admixture.

Also maybe Mycenaeans etc. instead of modern Albanians - since Albanians do have Slavic admixture.

[CommonSense]

And I really doubt that the Serbs are more Balkanic than Montenegrins.

This is a lame list, no offense Eskimo. Most Serbs, myself included, get modeled as 50% Greek, 50% Belarusian/Ukrainian on all the calculators. Our Slavic and Paleo-Balkanic components are about equal, yet according to this we are a total of 65% Balkanic, even more than Montenegrins lol.

[Pribislav]

This is a lame list, no offense Eskimo. Most Serbs, myself included, get modeled as 50% Greek, 50% Belarusian/Ukrainian on all the calculators. Our Slavic and Paleo-Balkanic components are about equal, yet according to this we are a total of 65% Balkanic, even more than Montenegrins lol.

Yes, Serbs are autosomally roughly 50% Slavic, and 50% paleo-Balkanic.
On "Poreklo" there is good text about Serbian autosomal and this is a conclusion. Currently I can not find that text.

Some individuals among Serbs are little more Slavic and some are little more paleo-Balkanic, but on average is about 50-50.
Montenegrins are more paleo-Balkanic than Slavic. Southern and eastern Serbs tend to be more paleo-Balkanic, and western and northern Serbs more Slavic.
I put here few times autosomal map K36 of Serb from Lika and Vojvodina, and both are closer to Ukrainians and most of Russians/Belarusians than to Albanians. I would like to see K36 map of Montenegrins and Serbs from southern/eastern Serbia.

Vojvodinian Serb
https://i.postimg.cc/kX6bMdZ7/evropa.png


Lika Serb
https://i.imgur.com/ljAxevh.png

Some people think that Albanians are pure paleo-Balkanites, they don't understand that Albanians have Slavic influence. Slavic haplogroups are over 20% in Albania.

[Dick]

Troll thread

[Nurzat]

Troll thread

nope. if you model it like this in nMonte you get these results. it's just not a good enough mix, I should not use modern populations that are already mixed, should find a 4-way model with more ancient groups. Balkanic scores overly inflated in this model

[Dick]

Nah. I get 40% Albanian
nope. if you model it like this in nMonte you get these results. it's just not a good enough mix, I should not use modern populations that are already mixed, should find a 4-way model with more ancient groups. Balkanic scores overly inflated in this model

[Pribislav]

K36 map of Serbian user Tschaikisten. He is closer to Ukrainians, Poles, Russians and Belarusians than to Albanians.
https://i.imgur.com/CRMjqfD.jpg

[Pribislav]

K36 map of another Serb who is closer to Poles, Russians and Belarusians that to Albanians.
https://i.imgur.com/ikneEnE.png

All Serbs even those who are more southern than average are closer to Ukrainians than to Albanians.

[CommonSense]

K36 map of another Serb who is closer to Poles, Russians and Belarusians that to Albanians.
https://i.imgur.com/ikneEnE.png

All Serbs even those who are more southern than average are closer to Ukrainians than to Albanians.

I am not more southen shifted than average, though I'm exactly in between the two:

https://i.imgur.com/5jKtJ5a.png

[Leto]

Belarusians are 1/3 Baltic, not the best proxy for medieval Slavs. Only if you can use Polesian samples, otherwise I think Ukraine is better choice (except Western Ukraine).
God, you are so obsessed with Slavs and keep repeating this nonsense. Why 1/3, where did you pull this estimate from? Not to mention that Baltic blood is barely different from Slavic. And Belarussians mostly look like stereotypical (European) Russians. Just go on social media and see for yourself if you don't believe me.
Anyway, wait for my brother-in-law's FTDNA results, you'll see what a real Slav is like. He's obviously more Eastern European than any of your family members.

[Pribislav]

I am not more southen shifted than average, though I'm exactly in between the two:

https://i.imgur.com/5jKtJ5a.png

This Serb is slightly more southern on K12b dodecad than you. This is his K36 map, he is still closer to most of Ukrainians and to some Poles than to Albanians.
https://i.imgur.com/L5mAWk9.png

[Jana]

God, you are so obsessed with Slavs and keep repeating this nonsense. Why 1/3, where did you pull this estimate from? Not to mention that Baltic blood is barely different from Slavic. And Belarussians mostly look like stereotypical (European) Russians. Just go on social media and see for yourself if you don't believe me.
Anyway, wait for my brother-in-law's FTDNA results, you'll see what a real Slav is like. He's obviously more Eastern European than any of your family members.

I am Slavic, you rude. What is the reason for this sudden and unexpected rant?
It's just my opinion, I got the figure from Peterski if you want to know. Although Volat claims the same, he told me himself only Polesians are Belarusians untouched by Baltic admixture.

Are you nazi ? Does the Baltic imput in Belarus makes you uncomfortable or what , you want to be pure Slav ?
Balts are more Eastern European than Slavs Genius, you can be less EE than ethnic Croats only if you are Belarusian Jew :laugh:

Who Care? I am Equally proud of our Illyrian Balkan admixture , just happen to be more Slavic autosomaly and in phenotype and guess what, I speak Slavic language, so it makes me more interested about our northern roots.

If it bothers you , you can f---k off!

[Pribislav]

Slavs are imaginary category such as Aryans, Hyperborea and Atlantis.

People which we call Slavs (God know how they call themselves) did not have unique genetic.

Many people are autosomally closer to people with which they are not related, than than to own father. With this knowlegde what a fucking about genetic we talk here? Wake up once!
It seems that autosomal is mostly bullshit, and only y dna have some sense.

[Jana]

Slavs are imaginary category such as Aryans, Hyperborea and Atlantis.

People which we call Slavs (God know how they call themselves) did not have unique genetic.

Many people are autosomally closer to people with which are not related, than than to own father. With this knowlegde what fucking a about genetic were talk here? Wake up once!
It seems that autosomal is mostly bullshit, and only y dna have some sense.

Well there existed Proto Slavs. In my PERSONAL opinion They Were closest to modern Eastern Poles, Southern Belarusians and northern Ukrainians. I don't know why this Leto guy got angry and attacked me.

[Nurzat]

Slavs are imaginary category such as Aryans, Hyperborea and Atlantis.

People which we call Slavs (God know how they call themselves) did not have unique genetic.

Many people are autosomally closer to people with which are not related, than than to own father. With this knowlegde what fucking a about genetic were talk here? Wake up once!
It seems that autosomal is mostly bullshit, and only y dna have some sense.

it was only meant to show some tendencies in the region and it does. now the percentages may be off a bit but generally it shows how UA-westRU-PL-BY are the core Slavic monolith, while CZ-SK are mixed with something Germanic-like, then ex-Yugos are mixed with native Balkanics in varying degrees and then RO-BG.

I will try and fine a better model, maybe use Ukrainians as proxy for 5th century Slavs

[Pribislav]

Well there existed Proto Slavs. In my PERSONAL opinion They Were closest to modern Eastern Poles, Southern Belarusians and northern Ukrainians. I don't know why this Leto guy got angry and attacked me.

People which we call proto-Slavs were not fall from the sky. There were created on some way. I doubt that there was any people in history which called themselves Slavs, same as for Illyrians.
For you it seems that proto-Slavs are alpha and omega. What was before proto-Slavs? Who were their ancestors, and from were they came to eastern Europe?
For you proto-Slavs are year 0, as for Khmer Rouge year of birth of Pol Pot. :)
It can be seen from the sky that you are not pure Croatian. Pure Croatins don't give a fuck for Slavs (most of them), they even have very big animosity for everything Slavic. Your passion towards the Slavs is like of Russian and Czech pan-slavists in 19th century.

[Nurzat]

People which we call proto-Slavs were not fall from the sky. There were created on some way. I doubt that there was any people in history which called themselves Slavs, same as for Illyrians.
For you it seems that proto-Slavs are alpha and omega. What was before proto-Slavs? Who were their ancestors, and from were they came to eastern Europe?
For you proto-Slavs are year 0, as for Khmer Rouge year of birth of Pol Pot. :)
It can be seen from the sky that you are not pure Croatian. Pure Croatins don't give a fuck for Slavs (most of them), they even have very big animosity for everything Slavic. Your passion towards the Slavs is like of Russian and Czech pan-slavists in 19th century.

we retroactively name the population that spread the so-called Slavic languages Slavic, it's ok to do that. and they had a genetic specific and their expansion into Central Europe and the Balkans did bring to those places genes that were not found before in the region. so we can speak also of a Slavic expansion/migration, assimilation etc.

it is pretty well documented archaeologically and historically.

[Jana]

People which we call proto-Slavs were not fall from the sky. There were created on some way. I doubt that there was any people in history which called themselves Slavs, same as for Illyrians.
For you it seems that proto-Slavs are alpha and omega. What was before proto-Slavs? Who were their ancestors, and from were they came to eastern Europe?
For you proto-Slavs are year 0, as for Khmer Rouge year of birth of Pol Pot. :)
It can be seen from the sky that you are not pure Croatian. Pure Croatins don't give a fuck for Slavs (most of them), they even have very big animosity for everything Slavic. Your passion towards the Slavs is like of Russian and Czech pan-slavists in 19th century.

There Were culture that are ancestors of proto-Slavs, like Prague or Kiev culture or something in Ukraine U forgot its name.
Vlatko know this better, it not a mystery.

I think average Croatians don't have animositsy, just don't know. for Serbs Pan Slavism is more political.
For me this interest evoken by my DNA results.

There is another reason why I like Slavs and its Connected to looks. I realised how beautiful Croatian people are to me when traveled Europe and seen for me Weird looking Western Europeans. Than I realised we can't have same origins like them.

I hope somebody don't get offended, i seen to triger people whenever I go xD

PS i Def. See physical , DNA connectioN with Albanians but with some westerners, nope.

[Jana]

Btw I think South Slavs >>>North Slavs sorry.

We don't need connection with North Slavs, Slavic-Balkan mix is best for our sensitiviness.
Many north Slavs are rude and Weird people. I really feel Slavic but not Connected with them, I feel Dalmatian/Med/Balkanic Type of Slavic. Yeah

[Pribislav]

There Were culture that are ancestors of proto-Slavs, like Prague or Kiev culture or something in Ukraine U forgot its name.
Vlatko know this better, it not a mystery.

I think average Croatians don't have animositsy, just don't know. for Serbs Pan Slavism is more political.
For me this interest evoken by my DNA results.

There is another reason why I like Slavs and its Connected to looks. I realised how beautiful Croatian people are to me when traveled Europe and seen for me Weird looking Western Europeans. Than I realised we can't have same origins like them.

I hope somebody don't get offended, i seen to triger people whenever I go xD

PS i Def. See physical , DNA connectioN with Albanians but with some westerners, nope.

You surprise me with this about western people! I thought that all Croatians look on westerners (especially Germans) as a "higher" race, and that they want to be like them. :confused:

I know very good what are you talking about. I always recognize westerners when I see them face to face, always when they don't speak their languages. They have different facial expression, way of walking, styling... They looks robotizet to me.

[Jana]

You surprise me with this about western people! I thought that all Croatians look on westerners (especially Germans) as a "higher" race, and that they want to be like them. :confused:

I know very good what are you talking about. I always recognize westerners when I see them face to face, always when they don't speak their languages. They have different facial expression, way of walking, styling... They looks robotizet to me.

They are Weird to me in everything too. That's why I never tried to associate with them.
I don't like Western World at all, rather will be Balkanite :)

[Jana]

Pribislav most Croatians love west. My opinion is very atypical.

[Pribislav]

Pribislav most Croatians love west. My opinion is very atypical.

:)

Croatians with attitudes like yours towards the west are indeed very rare.

What Stears say about that?
He is very pro-western...

[Mingle]

Slavs are imaginary category such as Aryans, Hyperborea and Atlantis.

People which we call Slavs (God know how they call themselves) did not have unique genetic.

Many people are autosomally closer to people with which they are not related, than than to own father. With this knowlegde what a fucking about genetic we talk here? Wake up once!
It seems that autosomal is mostly bullshit, and only y dna have some sense.

I heard they were working on a calculator that measures both admixture and genetic drift to take into account the flaws of admixture. There was a thread on it on Anthrogenica. Don't remember what its name was.

[Jana]

:)

Croatians with attitudes like yours towards the west are indeed very rare.

What Stears say about that?
He is very pro-western...

I Hate that about him. I find him hot because of his eastern features not Western but he doesn't understand that.
He look more eastern In Real life than on photos.

[Pribislav]

I Hate that about him. I find him hot because of his eastern features not Western but he doesn't understand that.
He look more eastern In Real life than on photos.

Does most of Hungarians recognize themselves as westerners?

They are divided on pro-western, turanists and...?

[Jana]

Does most of Hungarians recognize themselves as westerners?

They are divided on pro-western, turanists and...?

I think so. Many nationalist are eastern oriented, normal people more Western but eu skeptic I think.
Their culture really is Central European though.

[Mingle]

I think so. Many nationalist are eastern oriented, normal people more Western but eu skeptic I think.
Their culture really is Central European though.

Are Turanists a significant force in Hungary? I always saw them as a fringe force there and thought that the average Hungarian has never heard the word "Turanism" in his life.

[Pribislav]

I think so. Many nationalist are eastern oriented, normal people more Western but eu skeptic I think.
Their culture really is Central European though.

I remember when Hungarian user blogen said that Hungarians don't want to be related and associated with present day Europe and west, and with their "values."
Blogen is moderate turanist I think, unlike Turul Karom who is uber turanist.

Stears was always in conflict with both blogen and Turul Karom.

[Dukagjini]

Cool thread.

[Moje ime]

...

You should use Greeks as proxy for Balkan

[Kelmendasi]

You should use Greeks as proxy for Balkan
And why is that? Albanians have the least non-Balkan admix out of all the Balkanites making it more logical to use Albanians, sure we may have some Slavic input but it's less than our neighbors. Albanians are the best modern proxy for Balkan.

[Benyzero]

Are Turanists a significant force in Hungary? I always saw them as a fringe force there and thought that the average Hungarian has never heard the word "Turanism" in his life.

There are some but usually they are weirdos :D

[J. Ketch]

Using modern populations is terrible for judging admixture unless they're very distant.

[Pribislav]

And why is that? Albanians have the least non-Balkan admix out of all the Balkanites making it more logical to use Albanians, sure we may have some Slavic input but it's less than our neighbors. Albanians are the best modern proxy for Balkan.

Slavic haplogrups are about 20% in Albania.
Albanians ploting more northern than Greeks due to what?
Say hello to new Albanian with Slavic paternal origin! :) It's Shala from Peć (Pejë) - I2-Z17855 https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1193.msg102354#msg102354

Population in the Balkans with 0% Slavic influence are only Greek islanders.

[Kelmendasi]

Slavic haplogrups are about 20% in Albania.
Albanians ploting more northern than Greeks due to what?
Say hello to new Albanian with Slavic paternal origin! :) It's Shala from Peć (Pejë) - I2-Z17855 https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1193.msg102354#msg102354

Population in the Balkans with 0% Slavic influence are only Greek islanders.
On runs it’s Albanians that show the most correlation with Balkans_IA at around 70%. Haplogroups don’t correlate well with admixture, admixture can change drastically within 4 generations. Ok and? Should I begin posting Serbs of Albanian origin??

[Lucas]

Try using Avar Hungary Szolad and Golden Horde European as proxies for Slavic.

BTW why just 4 populations? You can run models with 10 or 20 or more.

And add some outlier outgrups like Nganassan and Bantu.

LOL. You don't know it? http://bga101.blogspot.com/2018/09/global25-nmonte-runner.html

[Pribislav]

On runs it’s Albanians that show the most correlation with Balkans_IA at around 70%. Haplogroups don’t correlate well with admixture, admixture can change drastically within 4 generations. Ok and? Should I begin posting Serbs of Albanian origin??

In Albania I2a1b+R1a are about 20%, and among Kosovar Albanians are about 10%. Among Greek islanders Slavic haplogroups does not exist.
Except by paternal line Albanians have Slavic influence by female lines. In Ottoman time Gheg beys often kidnapped Slavic woman. Albanian member on Eupedia forum is proud of that.
Malsors are heavy mixed with Serbs from Montenegro, and because of that Malsor are the most northern ploting Albanians.

Albanians are autosomally probably less paleo-Balkanic than southern Balkanite Vlachs.
Romanians and Vlachs from eastern Serbia and Bulgaria are heavy Slavic influenced, but Vlachs from Epirus and Thessaly are very paleo-Balkanic with minor Slavic influence.

[Jana]

In Albania I2a1b+R1a are about 20%, and among Kosovar Albanians are about 10%. Among Greek islanders Slavic haplogroups does not exist.
Except by paternal line Albanians have Slavic influence by female lines. In Ottoman time Gheg beys often kidnapped Slavic woman. Albanian member on Eupedia forum is proud of that.
Malsors are heavy mixed with Serbs from Montenegro, and because of that Malsor are the most northern ploting Albanians.

Albanians are autosomally probably less Slavic than southern Balkanite Vlachs.
Romanians and Vlachs from eastern Serbia and Bulgaria are heavy Slavic influenced, but Vlachs from Epirus and Thessaly are very paleo-Balkanic with minor Slavic influence.

Greek Islanders may have extra West Asian shift that didn't exist among ancient Balkanites. I agree with Peterski, using Mycenean as proxy for ancient Balkans is good idea, they were Sardinian not East Med shifted as far as I know.

[Pribislav]

Greek Islanders may have extra West Asian shift that didn't exist among ancient Balkanites. I agree with Peterski, using Mycenean as proxy for ancient Balkans is good idea, they were Sardinian not East Med shifted as far as I know.

Contact between Anatolia and Balkans was since Neolithic.

Why do you think that ancient Balkanites were not in contact with Anatolians?

In the time of Roman empire a lot of people from Anatolia and Levant came to Balkans as slaves, soldiers, merchants... and they mixed with locals.
In Roman empire there was high amount of racial mixing, almost as in Latin America.
Balkanites before Romans were more northern ploting genetically and more northern looking people. In the time of Roman empire there was infuence of Anatolian and Levantine genetic on Balkans, and Balkanites became swarthy. If Slavs never invaded Balkan, today Balkanites would be swarthy as Sicilians. Slavic and less Germanic invaders are deserving to fact that Balkan today is lighter than Italy and Iberia, without them Balkan would be more swarthy than both and similar as Sicily or Anatolia.

[Jana]

Contact between Anatolia and Balkans was since Neolithic.

Why do you think that ancient Balkanites were not in contact with Anatolians?

In the time of Roman empire a lot of people from Anatolia and Levant came to Balkans as slaves, soldiers, merchants... and they mixed with locals.
In Roman empire there was high amount of racial mixing, almost as in Latin America.
Balkanites before Romans were more northern poloting genetically and more northern looking people. In the time of Roman empire there was infuence of Anatolian and Levantine genetic on Balkans, and Balkanites became swarthy. If Slavs never invaded Balkan, today Balkanites would be swarthy as Sicilians. Slavic and less Germanic invaders are deserving to fact that Balkan today is lighter than Italy and Iberia, without them Balkan would be more swarthy than both and similar as Sicily or Anatolia.

I just mean Anatolian_Neolithic which peaks in Europe (Sardinia) was very strong among Myceneans, but they had less of this eastern, Iran_Neo type of ancestry than modern islanders have, that may have arrived centuries later. I don't think Illyrians or Dacians/Thracians had such additional ancestry that exist in some Greek Islands or Sicily, that's all.

[Lucas]

Using Global25 nMonte Runner http://bga101.blogspot.com/2018/09/global25-nmonte-runner.html

Serbians examined with different proxy for NE-Europe. Also instead of Iceland I used Dutch.
Polish proxy has best fit for Serbs for some reason.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2i09her.jpg

[Pubiczar]

Using Global25 nMonte Runner http://bga101.blogspot.com/2018/09/global25-nmonte-runner.html

Serbians examined with different proxy for NE-Europe. Also instead of Iceland I used Dutch.
Polish proxy has best fit for Serbs for some reason.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2i09her.jpg

Comparing modern groups of people with another modern groups of people is meaningless when determining how much "Slavic" some group is!
Your stats only show that the average Serb example is around 40% more Slavic or Polish-like than the Albanians.
But that doesn't mean that the Serbs are only 40% Slavic because neither the Albanians are pure Balkanic group, neither the Greeks are.
Pure Balkanic group before the Medieval migrations does not exist and as we don't have any samples of Balkan people right before those migrations, we can take some more ancient samples as example of a pre-medieval Balkan group such as IA_Balkan or some of Mycenaean samples.
When comparing Albanians with those ancient samples, they have overlap of around 70%, and the rest is some kind of Northern European influence!
So, when comparing with those ancient samples the Serbs may well be around 70% of Slavic origin!

[Jana]

Comparing modern groups of people with another modern groups of people is meaningless when determining how much "Slavic" some group is!
Your stats only show that the average Serb example is around 40% more Slavic or Polish-like than the Albanians.
But that doesn't mean that the Serbs are only 40% Slavic because neither the Albanians are pure Balkanic group, neither the Greeks are.
Pure Balkanic group before the Medieval migrations does not exist and as we don't have any samples of Balkan people right before those migrations, we can take some more ancient samples as example of a pre-medieval Balkan group such as IA_Balkan or some of Mycenaean samples.
When comparing Albanians with those ancient samples, they have overlap of around 70%, and the rest is some kind of Northern European influence!
So, when comparing with those ancient samples the Serbs may well be around 70% of Slavic origin!

70 percent Slavic is too much, even Croats aren't 70% Slavic on average and Slavic Y-DNA is less that that in both countries except in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
Not all northern influence in Balkans is Slavic, there were also Goths and Celts present there. For example Slovenes and NW Croats have strong Celtic influence, around 20% I'd estimate.

I seen some Gheg Albanians who shift north, but usually towards North-Western , not North-Eastern Europe and score some NW Euro on DNA land (which is unreliable, but still). So it may be Gothic type of admix.
We need more ancient Balkan samples, preferably from Roman times or before the dark ages. I except them to be heavily southern European except in area where Celts also settled, but who knows ? Maybe they were different than Myceneans.

[Pubiczar]

70 percent Slavic is too much, even Croats aren't 70% Slavic on average and Slavic Y-DNA is less that that in both countries except in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
Not all northern influence in Balkans in Slavic, there were also Goths and Celts present there. For example Slovenes and NW Croats have strong Celtic influence, around 20% I'd estimate.

I seen some Gheg Albanians who shift north, but usually towards North-Western , not North-Eastern Europe and score some NW Euro on DNA land (which is unreliable, but still). So it may be Gothic type of admix.
We need more ancient Balkan samples, preferably from Roman times or before the dark ages. I except them to be heavily southern European except in area where Celts also settled, but who knows ? Maybe they were different than Myceneans.

Well, I should have said Northern rather than Slavic.
But yeah, 70% sounds too much however is not far off!
That's just my guessing but I haven't seen nMonte scaling of Serbian average with those ancient samples.

[Kelmendasi]

In Albania I2a1b+R1a are about 20%, and among Kosovar Albanians are about 10%. Among Greek islanders Slavic haplogroups does not exist.
Except by paternal line Albanians have Slavic influence by female lines. In Ottoman time Gheg beys often kidnapped Slavic woman. Albanian member on Eupedia forum is proud of that.
Malsors are heavy mixed with Serbs from Montenegro, and because of that Malsor are the most northern ploting Albanians.

Albanians are autosomally probably less paleo-Balkanic than southern Balkanite Vlachs.
Romanians and Vlachs from eastern Serbia and Bulgaria are heavy Slavic influenced, but Vlachs from Epirus and Thessaly are very paleo-Balkanic with minor Slavic influence.
Again, haplogroups don’t correlate with admixture. Well what do you expect? They’re islands, Albania isn’t. Gheg beys didn’t usually take Slavic women, that’s just incorrect. They married other Muslim Albanians, the only way they would have Slavic women would be if they were concubines, not wives. Malsors aren’t heavily admixed with Slavs. Malsors taking Slavic brides only happened in some areas and it wasn’t too common. They aren’t the most Northern because of Slavic input, they have a NW shift not NE. Some Vlach results are just like that of Albanians, so doubt it. Still, Albanians are the ones which correlate the most with Balkanite samples, islander Greeks are more South Italian like than Balkan

[TeutonicBoyars]

Tbh I'd prefer if this was done with better population references/labels. Germans and Austrians being more Albanian (or Balkan if you will) than Ukrainians is just absolutely stunning to me and I have a hard time believing it.

[Jana]

This is most tight fit I get on Gedmatch in my opinion to model Slavic/Illyrian ancestry:

58.4% Russian_Meshtchyora ( ) + 41.6% Italian_Tuscan ( ) @ 1.4

Maybe I'm bit more Slavic than that because this area of Russia was inhabited by Uralics before Slavs so Russians from there should be more northeastern than proto-Slavs, but otherwise I think it's close.
Tuscan is decent proxy for Illyrians I think being western version of Albanians and we know they have zero percent Slavic admixture. IMHO I am 65% Slavic max.

[TeutonicBoyars]

This is most tight fit I get on Gedmatch in my opinion to model Slavic/Illyrian ancestry:

58.4% Russian_Meshtchyora ( ) + 41.6% Italian_Tuscan ( ) @ 1.4

Maybe I'm bit more Slavic than that because this area of Russia was inhabited by Uralics before Slavs so Russians from there are more northeastern than proto-Slavs, but otherwise I think it's close.
Tuscan is decent proxy for Illyrians I think being western version of Albanians and we know they have zero percent Slavic admixture. IMHO I am 65% Slavic max.

What calculator is this?

[Jana]

What calculator is this?

MDLP K23b

[TeutonicBoyars]

MDLP K23b

Weird, don't remember seeing those populations. Thnx though.

[Jana]

Even more interesting fit I get:

78.2% Pole (EastPoland) + 21.8% Italian (Tuscany) @ 2.21

I just wonder, is this East Polish sample actually southeasterner (who have Balkan admix) or genuine Eastern Pole ? I am def. not 80% Slavic, that's way too high.
Maybe some Polish member will see how well they match this sample in MDLP K16 modern. SE Poles have Balkan admixture just like Western Ukrainians.

[michal3141]

I tried to see if I can model Slavic nations and their neighbours as a mix of Slavic, Balkanic, Celto-Germanic and Caucasian DNA in nMonte (Global25).

the method and the restriction to 4 populations has its flows but broadly it can give an idea of approx how Slavic/Balkanic/Celto-Germanic the nations in the region are.

I used:
Albanians as proxy for Balkanic
Belarusians as proxy for Slavic
Icelandic as proxy for Celto-Germanic
Georgian as proxy for CHG
note that for Russians I used Finnish instead of Albanian, since Balkanic is not relevant for them and this fit was better

Celto-Germanic-Med/Balkan mix populations, Germanic strong prevalence:

German (d=0.6363)
22.5% Albanian
9.17% Belarusian
0% Georgian
68.33 Icelandic

Austrian (d=0.7117)
33.33% Albanian
18.33% Belarusian
0% Georgian
48.33% Icelandic

Slavo-Celto-Germanic populations:

Czech (d=0.7223)
14.17% Albanian
44.17% Belarusian
2.5% Georgian
39.17% Icelandic

Slovak (d=1.0613)
16.67% Albanian
59.17% Belarusian
0% Georgian
24.17% Icelandic

Slavic populations:

Belarusian (source population)

Russian (d=0.7784)
5% Finnish
90.83% Belarusian
4.17% Georgian
0% Icelandic

Ukrainian (d=0.4504)
5.83% Albanian
88.33% Belarusian
2.5% Georgian
3.33% Icelandic

Polish (d=0.4777)
4.17% Albanian
77.5% Belarusian
0.83% Georgian
17.5% Icelandic

Slavo-Balkan populations, Slavic slight prevalence:

Croat (d=0.6649)
37.5% Albanian
42.5% Belarusian
0.83% Georgian
19.17% Icelandic

Slovene (d=0.7796)
35.83% Albanian
46.67% Belarusian
0% Georgian
17.5% Icelandic

balanced Slavo-Balkan mix populations:

Moldovan (d=0.7997)
42.5% Albanian
40.83% Belarusian
4.17% Georgian
12.5% Icelandic

me (d=1.6898)
44.17% Albanian
40.83% Belarusian
1.67% Georgian
13.33% Icelandic

Bosnian (d=0.866)
49.17% Albanian
40.83% Belarusian
0.83% Georgian
9.17% Icelandic

Slavo-Balkan populations, Balkanic strong prevalence:

Macedonian (d=1.2106)
75% Albanian
20% Belarusian
0% Georgian
5% Icelandic

Serb (d=0.8991)
65% Albanian
26.67% Belarusian
0% Georgian
8.33% Icelandic

Montenegrin (d=0.864)
61.67% Albanian
23.33% Belarusian
0% Georgian
15% Icelandic

Balkanic populations:

Albanian (source population)

Greek (d=1.1832)
95.83% Albanian
0% Belarusian
3.33% Georgian
0.83% Icelandic

Bulgarian (d=0.8416)
74.17% Albanian
13.33% Belarusian
3.33% Georgian
9.17% Icelandic

Romanian (d=0.7737)
70% Albanian
15.83% Belarusian
0% Georgian
14.17 Icelandic

balanced Balkan-Ottoman/Persian-Indian mix populations:

Balkan Roma(d=1.6139)
44.17% Albanian
2.5% Belarusian
20% Kurdish
33.33% Punjabi

balanced Balkanic-Slavic-Celto-Germanic mix populations:

Hungarian (d=0.5643)
30.83% Albanian
38.33% Belarusian
0% Georgian
30.83% Icelandic

Cool calc Eskimo. My results (using scaled coordinates + nMonte3):

[1] "distance%=3.2232"

michal3141

Belarusian,78.2
Icelandic,14.4
Albanian,6.6
Georgian_Imer,0.8

[J. Ketch]

Tbh I'd prefer if this was done with better population references/labels. Germans and Austrians being more Albanian (or Balkan if you will) than Ukrainians is just absolutely stunning to me and I have a hard time believing it.
The 'Albanian' in Austrians/Germans is mostly just a proxy for their Med/Italianate blood, in this case.

[Lucas]

Comparing modern groups of people with another modern groups of people is meaningless when determining how much "Slavic" some group is!
Your stats only show that the average Serb example is around 40% more Slavic or Polish-like than the Albanians.
But that doesn't mean that the Serbs are only 40% Slavic because neither the Albanians are pure Balkanic group, neither the Greeks are.
Pure Balkanic group before the Medieval migrations does not exist and as we don't have any samples of Balkan people right before those migrations, we can take some more ancient samples as example of a pre-medieval Balkan group such as IA_Balkan or some of Mycenaean samples.
When comparing Albanians with those ancient samples, they have overlap of around 70%, and the rest is some kind of Northern European influence!
So, when comparing with those ancient samples the Serbs may well be around 70% of Slavic origin!

Not really 70% but about 50% for Paleo-Balkan.
Because if I must use Myceans, I can't use modern Slavic of course:) It's not so easy...
Instead I used Baltic_BA for NE-Europe, Beaker _Netherland for NW_Europe, Armenia_EBA for West-Asia/ Caucasus.

http://i67.tinypic.com/3088bxw.png

Again using nMonte runner http://185.144.156.77:3000/

Maybe someone could have better model

[michal3141]

Interesting components to try out:
- Latvian (a proxy for Baltic ancestry)
- Basque_Spanish (a proxy for Atlantic/Western ancestry)
- Albanian (a proxy for Balkan ancestry)
- Georgian_Imer (a proxy for Middle Eastern and Caucasian ancestry)
- Han (a proxy for East Asian and Siberian ancestry)

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Albanian,0.1203271,0.1415939,0.015839,-0.0163346,0.0255873,-0.0065339,0.0051029,0.0039889,2.93e-05,0.0152036,0.0006496,0.0011776,-0.0064563,0.0087096,-0.0215214,-0.0064211,0.004787,0.0025339,0.0086194,-0.0063959,-0.0044029,0.0007416,0.0021127,0.0030124,-0.0006329
Basque_Spanish,0.1319083,0.1504111,0.0582862,0.009 0081,0.0575834,0.0001239,-0.0033162,0.0004102,0.0313603,0.0455997,-0.0045288,0.0116063,-0.0227781,-0.0187627,0.0179452,0.0037271,-0.0058094,0.0027731,-0.0018156,-6.96e-05,0.0087901,0.0024868,-0.0068883,-0.0090371,0.0022619
Georgian_Imer,0.108132,0.1332374,-0.0619988,-0.0459952,-0.0383456,-0.0089246,0.0113746,-0.0056768,-0.0639748,-0.0175312,-0.0004546,0.0130384,-0.0251532,0.0072388,0.001873,-0.0238662,0.0070668,-0.0044088,-0.0095026,0.0153074,0.0115046,0.0013602,2.46e-05,-0.0070852,-0.0017964
Han,0.0215316,-0.4503027,-0.0074797,-0.065246,0.0764247,0.0360932,0.0031333,-0.0045575,-0.0152541,-0.0028095,-0.0510712,-0.0069312,0.0079284,-0.007833,-0.0042411,0.0015247,0.0017167,-0.0003695,-0.0020322,-0.0103902,0.0126859,0.007079,0.0136394,-0.0015664,-0.0019957
Latvian,0.1354494,0.122473,0.0887742,0.089471,0.04 3208,0.0340246,0.0125966,0.0140762,-0.002168,-0.0368842,-0.0035728,-0.0138178,0.0232208,0.031378,-0.010559,0.0040572,0.0027118,-0.0003802,0.0016088,0.0043022,-0.0027952,-0.0057128,0.0090708,-0.0093264,0.0026346

My results:

[1] "distance%=2.8074"

michal3141

Latvian,70.2
Basque_Spanish,13
Albanian,11.6
Georgian_Imer,3.4
Han,1.8

EDIT: Adding some models:

[1] "distance%=0.8075"

Croatian

Latvian,42.4
Albanian,37.8
Basque_Spanish,16
Georgian_Imer,3.6
Han,0.2

[1] "distance%=1.0585"

Serbian

Albanian,68.4
Latvian,25.8
Basque_Spanish,5.4
Georgian_Imer,0.4

[1] "distance%=2.1599"

German

Basque_Spanish,44.4
Latvian,39.6
Albanian,9.8
Georgian_Imer,6.2

[1] "distance%=0.7999"

Polish

Latvian,69.8
Basque_Spanish,15.4
Albanian,9.6
Georgian_Imer,5
Han,0.2

[1] "distance%=1.0841"

Belarusian

Latvian,81.6
Albanian,8
Basque_Spanish,7
Georgian_Imer,3
Han,0.4

This model is even good enough (<5% of error) for English and Irish people even though NW-Europe is not represented in this model by any population:

[1] "distance%=3.7054"

English

Basque_Spanish,60.6
Latvian,35
Georgian_Imer,3.6
Albanian,0.4
Han,0.4

Irish

Basque_Spanish,56.8
Latvian,38
Georgian_Imer,5
Han,0.2

And what about Finns?

As expected, they are mostly Baltic with some Germanic and Siberian influence:

[1] "distance%=3.8769"

Finnish

Latvian,82.4
Basque_Spanish,10.4
Han,4.2
Albanian,2.2
Georgian_Imer,0.8

[Lucas]

Not really 70% but about 50% for Paleo-Balkan.
Because if I must use Myceans, I can't use modern Slavic of course:) It's not so easy...
Instead I used Baltic_BA for NE-Europe, Beaker _Netherland for NW_Europe, Armenia_EBA for West-Asia/ Caucasus.

http://i67.tinypic.com/3088bxw.png

Again using nMonte runner http://185.144.156.77:3000/

Maybe someone could have better model

This time using Iron Age samples (Hunagry Medieval Szolad12 is few centures younger although and proxy for NW-Euro). Much worser fit. But still about 50% for paleo-Balkan and West-Asian/Caucasian.


http://i67.tinypic.com/30ufy1g.png

[Ayetooey]

Muslim Serb beekeeper Bosniensis must of been the Serb reference population hence why there's an absurdly large Illyrian/ancient Vinča culture component.

[Ayetooey]

I remember this thread from a while ago. I just got my global 25 so I ran my sample through out of interest. I assumed my NW euro half would just be picked up by the icelandic ref pop, and the balkan half broken down into balkanic/slavic, which seems to of happened. I've got results with ancestry and 23andme as Davidski gave me coordinates for both.

With ancestrydna data.
Albanian:39.17
Belarusian: 4.17
Georgian: 0
Icelandic: 56.67

23andme
Albanian:35
Belarusian: 13.33
Georgian: 0
Icelandic: 51.67

[Leto]

I remember this thread from a while ago. I just got my global 25 so I ran my sample through out of interest. I assumed my NW euro half would just be picked up by the icelandic ref pop, and the balkan half broken down into balkanic/slavic, which seems to of happened. I've got results with ancestry and 23andme as Davidski gave me coordinates for both.

With ancestrydna data.
Albanian:39.17
Belarusian: 4.17
Georgian: 0
Icelandic: 56.67

23andme
Albanian:35
Belarusian: 13.33
Georgian: 0
Icelandic: 51.67
Can you model your father too?

[Abriekman]

I tried to see if I can model Slavic nations and their neighbours as a mix of Slavic, Balkanic, Celto-Germanic and Caucasian DNA in nMonte (Global25).

the method and the restriction to 4 populations has its flows but broadly it can give an idea of approx how Slavic/Balkanic/Celto-Germanic the nations in the region are.

I used:
Albanians as proxy for Balkanic
Belarusians as proxy for Slavic
Icelandic as proxy for Celto-Germanic
Georgian as proxy for CHG
note that for Russians I used Finnish instead of Albanian, since Balkanic is not relevant for them and this fit was better

Celto-Germanic-Med/Balkan mix populations, Germanic strong prevalence:

German (d=0.6363)
22.5% Albanian
9.17% Belarusian
0% Georgian
68.33 Icelandic

Austrian (d=0.7117)
33.33% Albanian
18.33% Belarusian
0% Georgian
48.33% Icelandic

Slavo-Celto-Germanic populations:

Czech (d=0.7223)
14.17% Albanian
44.17% Belarusian
2.5% Georgian
39.17% Icelandic

Slovak (d=1.0613)
16.67% Albanian
59.17% Belarusian
0% Georgian
24.17% Icelandic

Slavic populations:

Belarusian (source population)

Russian (d=0.7784)
5% Finnish
90.83% Belarusian
4.17% Georgian
0% Icelandic

Ukrainian (d=0.4504)
5.83% Albanian
88.33% Belarusian
2.5% Georgian
3.33% Icelandic

Polish (d=0.4777)
4.17% Albanian
77.5% Belarusian
0.83% Georgian
17.5% Icelandic

Slavo-Balkan populations, Slavic slight prevalence:

Croat (d=0.6649)
37.5% Albanian
42.5% Belarusian
0.83% Georgian
19.17% Icelandic

Slovene (d=0.7796)
35.83% Albanian
46.67% Belarusian
0% Georgian
17.5% Icelandic

balanced Slavo-Balkan mix populations:

Moldovan (d=0.7997)
42.5% Albanian
40.83% Belarusian
4.17% Georgian
12.5% Icelandic

me (d=1.6898)
44.17% Albanian
40.83% Belarusian
1.67% Georgian
13.33% Icelandic

Bosnian (d=0.866)
49.17% Albanian
40.83% Belarusian
0.83% Georgian
9.17% Icelandic

Slavo-Balkan populations, Balkanic strong prevalence:

Macedonian (d=1.2106)
75% Albanian
20% Belarusian
0% Georgian
5% Icelandic

Serb (d=0.8991)
65% Albanian
26.67% Belarusian
0% Georgian
8.33% Icelandic

Montenegrin (d=0.864)
61.67% Albanian
23.33% Belarusian
0% Georgian
15% Icelandic

Balkanic populations:

Albanian (source population)

Greek (d=1.1832)
95.83% Albanian
0% Belarusian
3.33% Georgian
0.83% Icelandic

Bulgarian (d=0.8416)
74.17% Albanian
13.33% Belarusian
3.33% Georgian
9.17% Icelandic

Romanian (d=0.7737)
70% Albanian
15.83% Belarusian
0% Georgian
14.17 Icelandic

balanced Balkan-Ottoman/Persian-Indian mix populations:

Balkan Roma(d=1.6139)
44.17% Albanian
2.5% Belarusian
20% Kurdish
33.33% Punjabi

balanced Balkanic-Slavic-Celto-Germanic mix populations:

Hungarian (d=0.5643)
30.83% Albanian
38.33% Belarusian
0% Georgian
30.83% Icelandic

East and West Slavs do not have Balkanic admix. It is result of overfitting, because you use Belarussian

[Jana]

East and West Slavs do not have Balkanic admix. It is result of overfitting, because you use Belarussian

Incorrect. Carpathian Slavs have Balkan admix.

[Abriekman]

Incorrect. Carpathian Slavs have Balkan admix.

only Rusyns

[Jana]

only Rusyns

+ eastern Slovaks and southeastern Poles. But I'd say in both it's from Polonised/Slovakised Rusyns.
Czechs also have some southern ancestry, but I think it isn't from Balkans.