Were Indo Europeans genetically less European than Paleo Europeans?

[cyberlorian]

Were Indo Europeans genetically less European than Paleo Europeans?

[Nurzat]

Indo Europeans (Yamnaya) had no Natufian genes, they were exclusively EHG + WHG + CHG. we should check if the Europeans on the continent had Natufian mix and how much and if even northerners had it or not. then if you consider CHG Euro or not. that's a base of enquiry to start an answer.

[Token]

While Paleo-Europeans were building huts in Europe, the ancestors of the Indo-Europeans were still hunting mammoths in Eastern Siberia. Indo-Europeans as a unified ethnic group only came to be in Eneolithic Eastern Europe, when Caucasians started mixing with Eastern Hunter-Gatherers.

[Token]

Indo Europeans (Yamnaya) had no Natufian genes, they were exclusively EHG + WHG + CHG. we should check if the Europeans on the continent had Natufian mix and how much and if even northerners had it or not. then if you consider CHG Euro or not. that's a base of enquiry to start an answer.

False. Yamnaya derived around 10% of their genepool to European farmers.

[cyberlorian]

Indo Europeans (Yamnaya) had no Natufian genes, they were exclusively EHG + WHG + CHG. we should check if the Europeans on the continent had Natufian mix and how much and if even northerners had it or not. then if you consider CHG Euro or not. that's a base of enquiry to start an answer.

As far as I know, EHG have been 4/5 ANE + 1/5 WHG. So, WHG among Yamnaya people were considerably high. Most probably, Paleo Europeans have been genetically closer to today's Western Europeans. On the other hand, Indo Europeans have been genetically closer to today's Eastern Europeans.

[michal3141]

Were Indo Europeans genetically less European than Paleo Europeans?

Define what it means to be genetically European ;)

[Ryuk]

İf you mean paleo European is WHG, the answer was no,PİE had very little WHG.Most of PİE ancestry came from EHG and a distinct CHG ancestry.

EHG was not direct WHG+ANE,it was mostly ANE+paleo east European(probably sunghir like population)

correction Sorry,indeed EHG was a WHG(%30)and ANE(%70) mix.Yamna was app.%50 CHG %50 EHG.So yamna had %10-15 WHG ancestry (without farmer admixture)

[Livin]

Since when indoeuropeans had WHG?

As i know They were mostly a mix of EHG and CHG WITH some ANE OFC.

[michal3141]

İf you mean paleo European is WHG, the answer was no,PİE had very little WHG.Most of PİE ancestry came from EHG and a distinct CHG ancestry.

EHG was not direct WHG+ANE,it was mostly ANE+paleo east European(probably sunghir like population)

I wonder about the difference between WHG and Sunghir. What is known about it? Could you share some links or papers?

[Jana]

WHG admix is most exclusive European component, so yes.

[Jana]

İf you mean paleo European is WHG, the answer was no,PİE had very little WHG.Most of PİE ancestry came from EHG and a distinct CHG ancestry.

EHG was not direct WHG+ANE,it was mostly ANE+paleo east European(probably sunghir like population)

Not really, last papers model EHG as WHG with mongoloid and negritoid pull, so def. Mongrel component.

[Ryuk]

Not really, last papers model EHG as WHG with mongoloid and negritoid pull, so def. Mongrel component.


http://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2018/05/08/science.aar7711.DC1/aar7711_de_Barros_Damgaard_SM.pdf

No,EHG had not east asian ancestry but west siberian hunters gatherer(WSHG) had it.


https://indo-european.eu/2018/09/paleolithic-caucasus-samples-reveal-the-most-important-component-of-west-eurasians/

Sorry,indeed EHG was WHG+ANE but not east asian neither negroid.

[cyberlorian]

Define what it means to be genetically European ;)

I mean, genetically being closer to modern Europeans. :)

[Token]

I mean, genetically being closer to modern Europeans. :)

Indo-Europeans were closer to modern-day Europeans.

[Jana]

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2018/05/08/science.aar7711.DC1/aar7711_de_Barros_Damgaard_SM.pdf

No,EHG had not east asian ancestry but west siberian hunters gatherer(WSHG) had it.


https://indo-european.eu/2018/09/paleolithic-caucasus-samples-reveal-the-most-important-component-of-west-eurasians/

Sorry,indeed EHG was WHG+ANE but not east asian neither negroid.

ANE itself has negrito-mong pull despite not being directly related to either.

According to Lazaridis EHG is mix of WHG and ancestry on Han-Onge cline (and that is ANE)

Id quote it but I am on mobile phone.

EHG=3/4 ANE + 1/4 WHG approximatley

[Jana]

I mean, genetically being closer to modern Europeans. :)

Indo Europeans because native Europeans were displaced long before first by farmers and than by steppe pastoralists.

[Livin]

ANE itself has negrito-mong pull despite not being directly related to either.

According to Lazaridis EHG is mix of WHG and ancestry on Han-Onge cline (and that is ANE)

Id quote it but I am on mobile phone.

EHG=3/4 ANE + 1/4 WHG approximatley

I am wondering from witch group the blodness among europeans is coming from.It has to do with EHG and SHG?

[Ryuk]

I am wondering from witch group the blodness

İt was ANE ancestry so EHG.Oldest blonde man found in lake baikal,in afontova gora culture at late paleolithic

[Mingle]

While Paleo-Europeans were building huts in Europe, the ancestors of the Indo-Europeans were still hunting mammoths in Eastern Siberia.

Hunting mammoths is not some sort of special achievement. There's fossil evidence of them being hunted tens of thousands of years before IEs even existed in many different locations by several different types of hominids.

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[michal3141]

I mean, genetically being closer to modern Europeans. :)

Definitely modern Europeans are closer to Indo-Europeans. Paleo-Europeans are an extinct race.

[Ryuk]

ANE itself has negrito-mong pull despite not being directly related to either.

According to Lazaridis EHG is mix of WHG and ancestry on Han-Onge cline (and that is ANE)

ANE was a mix of Sunghir and tianyuan.The races we knew were not yet formed when ANE was formed.Probably everyone looked like Bushmen or Negroids at that time.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?264499-ANE-was-an-early-hapa-and-no-modern-aAmerindian-relatives-in-Eurasia

I was explain in this thread.

[Jana]

I am wondering from witch group the blodness among europeans is coming from.It has to do with EHG and SHG?

Blonde hair mutated with ANE, but that doesnt make ANE very white or Euro compoment because it is actually very exotic and peaks outside Europe in South America, Volga Ural region and some parts of South Asia.

Ofc most modern Euros are ANE admixed especially north and east ones.

[michal3141]

İt was ANE ancestry so EHG.Oldest blonde man found in lake baikal,in afontova gora culture at late paleolithic

I really wonder about it because ANE is basically a mix between Sunghir (Paleo East-European) and Tianyuan (Paleo-Mongoloid).
It is hard for me to accept that ANE was blonder than Sunghir for instance.

[Jana]

Definitely modern Europeans are closer to Indo-Europeans. Paleo-Europeans are an extinct race.

Not completely though, WHG Y dna (I2 and probably I1 too) and mt DNA (U5) survived , despite they are today mostly mix of steppe and neolithic in autosomal depening on region in Europe.

Y DNA C was also found in Paleo-Europeans and survive today among few Euro men (those with non mongol subclade)

[Ryuk]

I really wonder about it because ANE is basically a mix between Sunghir (Paleo East-European) and Tianyuan (Paleo-Mongoloid).
It is hard for me to accept that ANE was blonder than Sunghir for instance.

Sunghir+tianyuan admix happened before 35.000 years ago.Afontova gora lived before 15.000 years ago.there's 20,000 years in between.Enough time for mutation.

[Token]

Ryuk knows his shit

[Vasconcelos]

I am wondering from witch group the blodness among europeans is coming from.It has to do with EHG and SHG?

Probably GAC actually, who became a substract of CWC

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/pigmentation/

search for "Globular Amphora N"

[Token]

Hunting mammoths is not some sort of special achievement. There's fossil evidence of them being hunted tens of thousands of years before IEs even existed in many different locations by several different types of hominids.

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This is not what i meant, TA might be making you paranoid. I just wanted to emphasize how distant Indo-Europeans were when Hunter-Gatherers were already well established in Europe. Indo-Europeans at the time were as much foreign to Europe as Anatolian farmers, if not more.

[Token]

Probably GAC actually, who became a substract of CWC

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/pigmentation/

search for "Globular Amphora N"

What about KITLG in Afontova Gora 3? Blondism might have been present at lower levels among Yamnaya, even though this doesn't explains the very high levels in Europe today.

[Vasconcelos]

What about KITLG in Afontova Gora 3? Blondism might have been present at lower levels among Yamnaya, even though this doesn't explains the very high levels in Europe today.

So far it seems Yamnaya were overwhelmingly dark haired, they are very likely not the source of blondism amongst modern Europeans. There are other ancient (and older) samples who were blond, you can check the list if you're interested enough. The point is that it's really hard to know who the original source was, but it seems CWC (and its GAC substract) were the main culprits since CWC is associated with satem IE dialects (ie Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian) besides possibly also being a significant influence in later western IE speakers, especially Germanics

[Joso]

I think yes

[Token]

So far it seems Yamnaya were overwhelmingly dark haired, they are very likely not the source of blondism amongst modern Europeans. There are other ancient (and older) samples who were blond, you can check the list if you're interested enough. The point is that it's really hard to know who the original source was, but it seems CWC (and its GAC substract) were the main culprits since CWC is associated with satem IE dialects (ie Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian) besides possibly also being a significant influence in later western IE speakers, especially Germanics

The Yamnaya samples you are talking about are all from Eastern Yamnaya and these ones are not ancestral to modern Europeans. We will probably find high rates of blondism in Western Yamnaya, the ones that most likely expanded to Europe, and lets not forget that Yamnaya also have admixture from Globular Amphora. Considering that light hair was found in Motala Hunter-Gatherers, which were basically Western Hunter-Gatherers with some ANE admixture, while pure WHG had no blond hair whatsoever, combined to the fact that the earliest individual with the European blond hair allele was purely ANE, it seems very likely that blondism originated in an ANE-like population and expanded with ANE admixture (mostly intermediated by Indo-Europeans) to Europe.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

If this concept of Europeanness is based on European hunter gatherers then yes, they were more European than Indo-Europeans. The latter, however, were much closer to European populations than to anyone else.