East/West Variation of Skin Type/Tanning Ability among Europeans:

[AngloJewess]

Unexposed skin tone defiantly follows a Northwest-Southeast axis rather than a North-South one based on evidence of a recent study of pigmentation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3485197/

The study used a melanin index based off of red reflectance at 655nm.

The study found that the Portuguese sample from Porto had a similar skin melanin index to a sample of Poles from Warsaw. If the axis was north-south the Warsaw sample would be considerably lower (as Warsaw is ~11° to the North) in melanin index when they were found to negligibly higher.

The Irish sample from Dublin which is barely over 1° North of Warsaw was found to have a considerably lower melanin index (appears to be 1-2sd lower).

Although Dublin is a significant ~27° to the west of Warsaw, I wonder what the difference is in unexposed skin pigmentation over shorter distances East-West.


What are your observations on the difference of skin type and tone of Eastern and Western Europeans on a similar latitude? What about smaller east-west differences on a regional level?

[Septentrion]

Unexposed skin tone defiantly follows a Northwest-Southeast axis rather than a North-South one based on evidence of a recent study of pigmentation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3485197/

The study used a melanin index based off of red reflectance at 655nm.

The study found that the Portuguese sample from Porto had a similar skin melanin index to a sample of Poles from Warsaw. If the axis was north-south the Warsaw sample would be considerably lower (as Warsaw is ~11° to the North) in melanin index when they were found to negligibly higher.

The Irish sample from Dublin which is barely over 1° North of Warsaw was found to have a considerably lower melanin index (appears to be 1-2sd lower).

Although Dublin is a significant ~27° to the west of Warsaw, I wonder what the difference is in unexposed skin pigmentation over shorter distances East-West.


What are your observations on the difference of skin type and tone of Eastern and Western Europeans on a similar latitude? What about smaller east-west differences on a regional level?

The Irish are the palest people on the planet! Why do you expect? They can't tan unless they walk into some tanning store.

[AngloJewess]

The Irish are the palest people on the planet! Why do you expect? They can't tan unless they walk into some tanning store.

That goes without question. My question was about comparing Europeans population on about the same latitude and over shorter ditances East-West than Warsaw-Dublin.

Say for example Germans vs. Poles or Danes vs Lithuanians.

It is only natural that the Irish are among the most depigmented as regards to skin based on the Northwest-Southeast axis of skin pigmentation.

Smaller distences along the Northwest-Southeast axis would correspond to subtler variations in skin pigmentation so I am interested to what peoples observations are about East-West skin pigmentation variation.

East-West variation is much more interesting than North-South Variation because the North-South variation is more intuitive.

[Jana]

East Europeans are more yellowish skinned and less ruddy compared to West Europeans, true.

[Nurzat]

East Europeans are more yellowish skinned and less ruddy compared to West Europeans, true.

and even blondes heavily tan, even darker shades, in Eastern Europe, not to mention the Balkans. still there are some with rosy skin, but rather rare

[CommonSense]

I don't need to read these ''scientific'' babblings. All you have to do is take a look at the Southern European diaspora in Northern Europe and you'll see that the difference in pigmentation is painfully obvious. Serbs living in Scandinavia have the same pigmentation as those living here, and both of them are considerably darker than the nords.

[rein]

Only 4 populations tested with South-Eastern being Italy. Sounds sketchy.

[rein]

and even blondes heavily tan, even darker shades, in Eastern Europe, not to mention the Balkans. still there are some with rosy skin, but rather rare

Not rare at all in Northern countries such as Belarus, etc...

[AngloJewess]

I don't need to read these ''scientific'' babblings. All you have to do is take a look at the Southern European diaspora in Northern Europe and you'll see that the difference in pigmentation is painfully obvious. Serbs living in Scandinavia have the same pigmentation as those living here, and both of them are considerably darker than the nords.

I am much more concerned with East-West variation because North-South is much more obvious. It is obvious that Serbs would be somewhat darker skinned and more able to tan than Swedes.

What is much more interesting is variation on roughly the same latitude. That is what this thread is about.

[CommonSense]

I am much more concerned with East-West variation because North-South is much more obvious. It is obvious that Serbs would be somewhat darker skinned and more able to tan than Swedes.

What is much more interesting is variation on roughly the same latitude. That is what this thread is about.

It's about ancestry and environment, not latitude. Norwegians, especially those from the west have darker skin than the Irish, even though they are geographically more northern.

[AngloJewess]

Only 4 populations tested with South-Eastern being Italy. Sounds sketchy.

This study below also using reflectometry found that Chechens in Chechnya have darker unexposed skin than North Iberians from Leon and the Basque Country who are roughly at the same latitude.

http://anth.la.psu.edu/research/research-labs/jablonski-lab/research/JablonskiLabskin.pdf

All reflectometry data I find supports a Northwest-Southeast axis of skin pigmentation in Europe.

There is of course limitations as not that many populations have reflctometry data on them. However the data we do have from reflectometry is more realistic and objective than that from any other measure of skin pigmentation because it is continous and skin tone is a continous trait.

[rein]

This study below also using reflectometry found that Chechens in Chechnya have darker unexposed skin than North Iberians from Leon and the Basque Country who are roughly at the same latitude.

http://anth.la.psu.edu/research/research-labs/jablonski-lab/research/JablonskiLabskin.pdf

All reflectometry data I find supports a Northwest-Southeast axis of skin pigmentation in Europe.

There is of course limitations as not that many populations have reflctometry data on them. However the data we do have from reflectometry is more realistic and objective than that from any other measure of skin pigmentation.

It also says that Lebanese are lighter than Chechens according to reflectometry. Who knows?

[cyberlorian]

Unexposed skin tone defiantly follows a Northwest-Southeast axis rather than a North-South one based on evidence of a recent study of pigmentation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3485197/

The study used a melanin index based off of red reflectance at 655nm.

The study found that the Portuguese sample from Porto had a similar skin melanin index to a sample of Poles from Warsaw. If the axis was north-south the Warsaw sample would be considerably lower (as Warsaw is ~11° to the North) in melanin index when they were found to negligibly higher.

The Irish sample from Dublin which is barely over 1° North of Warsaw was found to have a considerably lower melanin index (appears to be 1-2sd lower).

Although Dublin is a significant ~27° to the west of Warsaw, I wonder what the difference is in unexposed skin pigmentation over shorter distances East-West.


What are your observations on the difference of skin type and tone of Eastern and Western Europeans on a similar latitude? What about smaller east-west differences on a regional level?

Portuguese being lighter than Polish sounds extremely weird to me.

[AngloJewess]

It's about ancestry and environment, not latitude. Norwegians, especially those from the west have darker skin than the Irish, even though they are geographically more northern.

Yes there are other factors. The axis Northwest-Southeast axis is only approximate. The other factors are much more relevant over shorter distance along the axis, while with longer distances they are less important.

I am talking about general tendencies. Ancestry and environment become more important than differences of longitude and latitude over a certain distance. After that distance along the Northwest-Southeast axis becomes more important as a single factor.

Serbia and Sweden are far enough apart along the Northwest-Southeast axis so that that the distance accounts for more of the variation between skin type/tone than individual factors of ancestry and environment can. That is because there is a general correlation between many of the specific factors and the Northwest-Southeast axis.

Southwest Norwegians have significant admixture from Irish and Scottish thralls and the R1b subclade M222 is elevated among Southwest Norwegians because of this. The relatively darker-complexioned Norwegians typically come from the mountains and are of the Strandid type. Along the Southwest coast Norwegians tend towards rufoisty and are more light complexioned. Southwest Norwegians as well as Icelanders are closer to Celtic people as regards to skin pigmentation than other Scandinavians because of greater admixture from Celtic people through their thralls.

Also, even though the Norwegians are more northern than the Irish, the Irish are more western than the Norwegians.

All I know is that there is a Northwest-Southeast axis, I dont have enough data to determine what the approximate slope and thus whether longitude or latitude is more important.

[AngloJewess]

It also says that Lebanese are lighter than Chechens according to reflectometry. Who knows?

Maybe the sample sizes are inconsistent and/or too small, or the distribution of males/females was inconsistent as they found that females generally had a significantly higher reflectance.

Also, notice how the the actual reflectance is often quite different from the predicted reflectance.

Perhaps because the use of reflectometry to measure skin pigmentation is relatively recent predicting reflectance is more difficult.

[Septentrion]

This study below also using reflectometry found that Chechens in Chechnya have darker unexposed skin than North Iberians from Leon and the Basque Country who are roughly at the same latitude.

http://anth.la.psu.edu/research/research-labs/jablonski-lab/research/JablonskiLabskin.pdf

All reflectometry data I find supports a Northwest-Southeast axis of skin pigmentation in Europe.

There is of course limitations as not that many populations have reflctometry data on them. However the data we do have from reflectometry is more realistic and objective than that from any other measure of skin pigmentation because it is continous and skin tone is a continous trait.

Skin reflectance not always a good indicator of fair skin. Someone who doesn't spend time in the sun, might have a lighter skin complexion than the one who does. So I don't think it is reliable. Skin which cannot tan are the truly fair skin and they are most frequent in North-West Europe particularly the British Isles!!

[AngloJewess]

Skin reflectance not always a good indicator of fair skin. Someone who doesn't spend time in the sun, might have a lighter skin complexion than the one who does. So I don't think it is reliable. Skin which cannot tan are the truly fair skin and they are most frequent in North-West Europe particularly the British Isles!!

First of all, no one has developed a way to measure tanning ability continuously. The Fitzpatrick scale is by nature discrete and clearly tanning ability is a continous trait. Continuous data must be measured continuously.

Second of all, only unexposed skin is ever measured. Testing exposed skin would invariably lead to flawed data.

Lastly, I am not debating the fairness of Northwest Europeans in the slightest. I agree that Northwestern Europeans are the fairest Europeans and this is consistent with my Northwest-Southeast axis point

[rein]

First of all, no one has developed a way to measure tanning ability continuously. The Fitzpatrick scale is by nature discrete and clearly tanning ability is a continous trait. Continuous data must be measured continuously.

Second of all, only unexposed skin is ever measured. Testing exposed skin would invariably lead to flawed data.

Lastly, I am not debating the fairness of Northwest Europeans in the slightest. I agree that Northwestern Europeans are the fairest Europeans and this is consistent with my Northwest-Southeast axis point

From the reflectometry paper you have provided (which unfortunately doesn’t include North-East Euro countries) it seems that Netherlands i the lightest country.

[AngloJewess]

From the reflectometry paper you have provided (which unfortunately doesn’t include North-East Euro countries) it seems that Netherlands i the lightest country.

I am aware and my explanation is that the Irish & British have more ruddy tones while the Dutch have more clear complexions. Ruddy individuals commonly have less tanning ability than more clear completion individuals who have a higher skin reflectance.
So it according to traditional reflectometry studies it may be that the British and Irish have negligibly darker skin but less tanning ability than North Sea Germanics like the Dutch.

The Northwestern-Southeastern axis is general and becomes less effective when comparing populations over shorter distances. But the point that Northwestern Europeans (including Dutch) are as a whole fairest stands.

The axis for tanning ability despite being similar to the skin tone axis (as the two are Northwest-Southeast following) is different. I think the axis for skin tone might be slightly more northern-shifted and the axis for tanning ability might be slightly more western-shifted.

This is as already stated because of erythema (red-pigmentation) is greater among Celtic peoples than Germanic peoples from North sea like Dutch or Danish and that means that Celtic peoples may have a slightly lower skin reflectance.

There are comprehensive studies that separate erythema from pigmentation and thus produce results that are a better representative of tanning ability such as the one below, but none yet have compared different European populations.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1034/j.1600-0749.2002.02042.x

Regarding the lack of Northeastern European samples is the second paper, I am aware and I have to compare with the Polish sample from the other study. I wish more comparative studies of skin reflectance were done, but I will have to make do with what is available for now.