Something people fundamentally misunderstand about the Iberia/Britain/Ireland connection

[Sikeliot]

Haplogroup R1b is common to both regions and people assume the Celtic populations in Britain are Iberian-like, which is false.

The reality is Iberians have a lot of NW European-like DNA, which means Iberians deviate from Southern Europe, not Brits and Irish deviating from Northwest Europe.

The Iberians are genetically as close, if not closer, to Brits, Irish, Germans, and Dutch than to Sicilians and Cretans.

[Cristiano viejo]

Very good.

[rein]

It’s widely known.

[Sikeliot]

It’s widely known.

No, it's not. People in another thread are saying the Irish are closer to Iberians than Germans (which is false). The truth is Iberians have NW European DNA.

[Peterski]

Also the most ancient layer of ancestry in Great Britain and in Ireland is Iberian-like, as this study says:

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368

"(...) Outgroup f3 statistics indicated that Ballynahatty shared most genetic drift with other Neolithic samples with maximum scores observed for Spanish Middle, Epicardial, and Cardial Neolithic populations, and the Scandinavian individual Gok2 (SI Appendix, Section S12.1). D statistics confirmed these affinities. Interestingly, both the Spanish MN individuals and Gok2 also belong to Megalithic passage tomb cultures. (...) The Irish MN female farmer (3343–3020 cal. BC) from a Megalithic tomb in Ballynahatty near Belfast affords, to our knowledge, a first direct genetic view of the transition at Europe’s western edge. She displays predominant ancestry from early farmers that ultimately originated in migrating agriculturists from the Near East. This derivation is attested by her PCA and ADMIXTURE profile, her correlated allele frequencies with other Neolithic genomes, reflected in D statistics, and by her haplotypic affinity with modern southern Mediterranean populations such as Sardinians. Her early European farmer coefficient is estimated at ∼60%; an ancestry which is difficult to reconcile with extensive indigenous adoption of agriculture in Ireland only several hundred years earlier. She shares higher levels of genetic drift with Early and MN samples from Spain rather than those from Germany, supporting a link between the early farming cultures of Atlantic Europe and arguing for the possible passage of farming to Ireland via a southern coastal route rather than via the migrations through central Europe (2). A high affinity to Scandinavian farmer, Gok2 is more difficult to interpret as it is associated with the TRB (Funnelbeaker) culture whose origins are generally derived from Central European farming cultures but perhaps it is noteworthy that this later sample is also recovered from a Megalithic context. (...)"

And no, this ancestry is not totally extinct in modern British, the replacement by Beakers was not 100%:

http://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/113/2/368/F3.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

[Peterski]

So the nature of Iberian-British connection is not one-dimensional.

It can be explained both by Neolithic Farmer layer of ancestry and by Post-Neolithic Beaker/Steppe layer of ancestry.

Of course the British-Irish are much less EEF and much more Steppe.

[Grace O'Malley]

Also the most ancient layer of ancestry in Great Britain and in Ireland is Iberian-like, as this study says:

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368

"(...) Outgroup f3 statistics indicated that Ballynahatty shared most genetic drift with other Neolithic samples with maximum scores observed for Spanish Middle, Epicardial, and Cardial Neolithic populations, and the Scandinavian individual Gok2 (SI Appendix, Section S12.1). D statistics confirmed these affinities. Interestingly, both the Spanish MN individuals and Gok2 also belong to Megalithic passage tomb cultures. (...) The Irish MN female farmer (3343–3020 cal. BC) from a Megalithic tomb in Ballynahatty near Belfast affords, to our knowledge, a first direct genetic view of the transition at Europe’s western edge. She displays predominant ancestry from early farmers that ultimately originated in migrating agriculturists from the Near East. This derivation is attested by her PCA and ADMIXTURE profile, her correlated allele frequencies with other Neolithic genomes, reflected in D statistics, and by her haplotypic affinity with modern southern Mediterranean populations such as Sardinians. Her early European farmer coefficient is estimated at ∼60%; an ancestry which is difficult to reconcile with extensive indigenous adoption of agriculture in Ireland only several hundred years earlier. She shares higher levels of genetic drift with Early and MN samples from Spain rather than those from Germany, supporting a link between the early farming cultures of Atlantic Europe and arguing for the possible passage of farming to Ireland via a southern coastal route rather than via the migrations through central Europe (2). A high affinity to Scandinavian farmer, Gok2 is more difficult to interpret as it is associated with the TRB (Funnelbeaker) culture whose origins are generally derived from Central European farming cultures but perhaps it is noteworthy that this later sample is also recovered from a Megalithic context. (...)"

And no, this ancestry is not totally extinct in modern British, the replacement by Beakers was not 100%:

http://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/113/2/368/F3.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

That is because the farmer population of Europe was most similar to Sardinians and Sardinians today have the highest percentage of Farmer genes. The population that Ballynahatty was from didn't contribute much genetics to modern day Irish though.

[Aren]

Wrong as always. Iberians when looking at deep ancestry are closer to other southern Europeans, not Brits or NW Euros.

[Bellbeaking]

Wrong as always. Iberians when looking at deep ancestry are closer to other southern Europeans, not Brits or NW Euros.

It probably is true: gregory cochran wrote about the northern bell beakers that colonized england travelling to spain and replacing the male lineage.

https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2018/10/07/i-dont-need-to-forgive-my-enemies/

David Reich says that around 4500 years ago, the existing Y-chromosomes in Iberia were almost entirely replaced. “The collision of these two populations was not friendly; instead, the men who arrived almost completely pushed out the local men.” Spanish scientist Íñigo Olalde said that after the transition. populations had “40% of their genetic information and 100% of their Y chromosomes from the migrants.”

[Grace O'Malley]

It probably is true: gregory cochran wrote about the northern bell beakers that colonized england travelling to spain and replacing the male lineage.

https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2018/10/07/i-dont-need-to-forgive-my-enemies/

David Reich says that around 4500 years ago, the existing Y-chromosomes in Iberia were almost entirely replaced. “The collision of these two populations was not friendly; instead, the men who arrived almost completely pushed out the local men.” Spanish scientist Íñigo Olalde said that after the transition. populations had “40% of their genetic information and 100% of their Y chromosomes from the migrants.”

Bell Beakers but not necessarily Northern Bell Beakers. What are Northern Bell Beakers anyway? Do you mean the British and Dutch? All the Bell Beakers were R1b but British Bell Beakers were all R1b-L21 and Spain is mostly R1b-DF27. Not sure what happened here to cause these differences in ydna. There is still a lot to know about. Hopefully Olalde's paper will be released soon as many people have been waiting a while now to read it.

All Bell Beakers were not the same autosomally also so there are still some pieces in the puzzle left.

[Not a Cop]

Also the most ancient layer of ancestry in Great Britain and in Ireland is Iberian-like, as this study says:



Most ancient layer is obviously WHG, not Neolithics.

[Bellbeaking]

Bump for Sikeliot because he is so good at being


Most ancient layer is obviously WHG, not Neolithics.

I wish we still had DNA from them in the UK but its basically NONE outside SW Scotland AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHH

A lot of English farmers where from the Danubian route and had more WHG compared to more Iberian Irish Farmers which is........interesting

[Not a Cop]

Bump for Sikeliot because he is so good at being



I wish we still had DNA from them in the UK but its basically NONE outside SW Scotland AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHH

A lot of English farmers where from the Danubian route and had more WHG compared to more Iberian Irish Farmers which is........interesting

Were they dark-skinned though? It's only thing that matters.

[Petalpusher]

Most Euro Neolithic cluster together like from Hungary to Spain to Germany so it doesn't change much where it came from at that point cause it all came from the same ancestry scattered all across Europe, wich is ancient Anatolia (how we are sure, Greeks and Bulgarians get it first in the timeline). Then it's just that IBD/genetic drift here let you know where it actually might have been moving from geographically at some point inside Europe, but it's still more of the same.

It's like you put 1 Million Czech in each European country and a few hundreds years later you see that two countries have more Czech relatives in common than other countries. At best you can say that maybe a more related groups of those Czech were split between those 2 countries. Still the same fucking Czech ancestry everywhere.

[Peterski]

Most ancient layer is obviously WHG, not Neolithics.

Yeah, but 100% WHG populations did not survive until Bell Beaker invasions.

Neolithic Farmers in Britain had high levels of WHG admixture though, check:

https://i.imgur.com/Zt0q3Qv.png