Naturalidade vs Ancestralidade?

[Kriptc06]

Qual o mais importante para vocês?

Onde tu nasce, e local que te influência para a vida toda, a ex: culinária, clima, fala, povo, cultura etc.

Ou a sua ascendência e de onde vem teus ancestrais? a ex: cultura, fala, etc que tu herda parcialmente deles?

Com quantas gerações há a "quebra" da ascendencia/origem?

[Kriptc06]

Em minha opinião é quase um 50-50, porém pendendo mais para o de naturalidade, e povo a tua volta que te influência. o que vcs pensam? Comparto da ideia de Drukheim, "o meio faz o homem"

[Black Panther]

Antigamente eu diria a naturalidade, mas hoje em dia considero a ancestralidade mais importante, graças a pessoas como o Malcolm X. Me sinto bem mais a vontade para falar sobre certos assuntos com pessoas mescladas e negras de qualquer parte do mundo do que com brancos, sendo suecos ou brasileiros. Apesar disso, a língua e certos traços culturais me unem aos brancos do Brasil e da Suécia, então não sou completamente contra a ideia de nacionalismo cívico. Entre os dois, me considero uns 80% favorável a ancestralidade e 20% a naturalidade.

[El_Jibaro]

Both. Even though six out of my eight great grandparents were born in Spain, my dad is Gallego, and I even lived in Spain from 12 to 24 years old, I still consider PR my home cause I was born and spent my childhood there. Although I also identify very much with my Spanishness and no doubt living there for my adolescence and early adult years had an great impact on me.

[Kriptc06]

Both. Even though six out of my eight great grandparents were born in Spain, my dad is Gallego, and I even lived in Spain from 12 to 24 years old, I still consider PR my home cause I was born and spent my childhood there. Although I also identify very much with my Spanishness and no doubt living there for my adolescence and early adult years had an great impact on me.

what if I introduce citizenship to the mix? (someone that has more than one), what would be more prevalent

[Chaos One]

Isso é complicado de analisar porque depende muito do país em questão. Em locais aonde existe uma solidificação cultural histórica (como o Japão ou alguns países do Leste Europeu), ambos se misturam naturalmente porque a sua origem é diretamente ligada com a sua nacionalidade.

Agora, nos países do Novo Mundo a coisa complica bem mais, porque varia de pessoa pra pessoa. Eu diria que de um modo geral, se sua descendência é de fato próxima (até Avô/Avó) faz todo sentido a afirmação uma vez que ela é vivenciada de perto. Além disso, a naturalidade pesa mais até porque o comportamento mais próximo já foi influenciado. Eu citei o Japão, e nada mais interessante do que ver como os Dekaseguis não se adaptam no Japão mesmo alguns sendo 100% japoneses etnicamente.

[El_Jibaro]

what if I introduce citizenship to the mix? (someone that has more than one), what would be more prevalent

I have Spanish citizenship from birth and I still feel the same way. I would never call myself just "Spanish", but Spanish-Puerto Rican yes. My ancestry may be pretty much entirely from Spain (and recent) and I lived there for many years, but I was born in Puerto Rico and that will never change. Although with my son I just consider him Spaniard because he was born in Spain and also has a Spanish mom. However, in terms of passports, there is no PR passport since it is a US colony, so of course I like the Spanish one more because the Yanquis can go to hell :p. As you see on my profile, I have the rojigualda and not the American flag so this should tell you something.

[Erronkari]

Pois sendo filho de mãe e pai de diferentes países por mais que eles sejam super semelhantes eu me sinto praticamente 50/50 das duas nacionalidades, porém que na verdade só tenho uma delas.

[Rafael Passoni]

Nowadays ancestry is much more important because all young people worldwide have been influenced by the same globalized culture and have the same dreams and live goals achievements.

[Tutankhamun]

Pois sendo filho de mãe e pai de diferentes países por mais que eles sejam super semelhantes eu me sinto praticamente 50/50 das duas nacionalidades, porém que na verdade só tenho uma delas.

Sua terceira pátria é o Brasil, pode admitir hermano lol

[Andullero]

Eu sou vira lata, é praticamente uma obrigação para mim dizer a naturalidade. :dunno:

[Erronkari]

Sua terceira pátria é o Brasil, pode admitir hermano lol

Aceito!!! ;)

[Latinus]

Pra mim, naturalidade. Mas as pessoas são livres para se identificarem com o povo que sentem maior ligação, seja os conterrâneos ou os povos ancestrais.

[Kriptc06]

Pra mim, naturalidade. Mas as pessoas são livres para se identificarem com o povo que sentem maior ligação, seja os conterrâneos ou os povos ancestrais.

Isto é um pouco específico, mas uma pessoas que tem uma ancestralidade multipla, e tem duas nacionalidades, mas nasceu e viveu apenas num país só. Tu aachas que essa pessoa pode se identificar com a identidade da outra nacionalidade tranquilamente?

[Latinus]

Isto é um pouco específico, mas uma pessoas que tem uma ancestralidade multipla, e tem duas nacionalidades, mas nasceu e viveu apenas num país só. Tu aachas que essa pessoa pode se identificar com a identidade da outra nacionalidade tranquilamente?

Acho que pode. Vai de cada um.

[El_Jibaro]

Isto é um pouco específico, mas uma pessoas que tem uma ancestralidade multipla, e tem duas nacionalidades, mas nasceu e viveu apenas num país só. Tu aachas que essa pessoa pode se identificar com a identidade da outra nacionalidade tranquilamente?

I think you are the product of whatever country you grew up in, and ancestry isn't that important when it comes to everyday things. For a person like me its a bit complicated though because I grew up in two countries and I have one colonial line in the place I was born and super recent from the one I lived half my life in so I've got dual identity. Although my partner, for example, is Argentine with four Italian grandparents but has no real ties to Italy, no family there, and only has the citizenship and ancestry so in all meaningful ways she's just another Porteña. It would be fucking weird for her to label herself just "Italian" when she has only been there as a tourist and everything she knows is Argentina. She identifies with being Venetian descent, yeah, but never would she label herself just as an Italian.

[Rafael Passoni]

She is mainly an Argentinian of Italian descent, but she still being ethnicaly an Italian, Caucasian and European by blood and white to everyone around the world, and she is even much more Italian than any SSA or Chinese immigrant that was born and grew-up in Italy for sure. These SSA/Chinese immigrants will look foreigners and their children will show it on their phenotypes. She still have an relation to Italy and Europe. Nobody can denny the fact that all her great-great...grandparents were part of Europe and are buried there. I really doubt if my children born and grow-up in Japan would see as authentic Japaneses to locals, we need three elements to be an authentic local (nationality, ethnicity and culture). My children would lack the ethnicity in Japan. That's bc I like the word 'caucasian', nationality and culture open ways to make Ilegal Immigrants feel better integrated. Sayng that everyone can be everything just born and living there is a lie.

[El_Jibaro]

She is mainly an Argentinian of Italian descent, but she still being ethnicaly an Italian, Caucasian and European by blood and white to everyone around the world, and she is even much more Italian than any SSA or Chinese immigrant that was born and grew-up in Italy for sure. These SSA/Chinese immigrants will look foreigners and their children will show it on their phenotypes. She still have an relation to Italy and Europe. Nobody can denny the fact that all her great-great...grandparents were part of Europe and are buried there. I really doubt if my children born and grow-up in Japan would see as authentic Japaneses to locals, we need three elements to be an authentic local (nationality, ethnicity and culture). My children would lack the ethnicity in Japan. That's bc I like the word 'caucasian', nationality and culture open ways to make Ilegal Immigrants feel better integrated. Sayng that everyone can be everything just born and living there is a lie.

My woman is Italian-Argentinian, yes. Although she is still not the same as someone born and raised in Italy, even though she is of full descent from there and has citizenship through her grandparents. I agree in a genetic sense she is more Italian (or specifically Venetian) than someone descended from immigrants raised there, but with ethnicity there are two components, the cultural and the genetic. She was born and spent her childhood until 16 in a Spanish speaking country in South America, not Italy. Furthermore, she also used to live in Europe, but in...Spain because her parents felt more at home there because of the language, go figure :lol:

[Hawkguy]

Eu acho que um pouco dos dois. Ancestralidade influencía até um certo ponto, depois fica muito abstrato, ainda mais alguém com ancestralidade multiétnica como eu. Tenho antepassados italianos que nunca tive contato, eu tenho o direito a cidadania italiana e etc. Mesmo que em termos legais serei considerado um Italiano, em termos culturais não me considero. O mesmo vale para as partes Ibérica, Africana, Indígena e Judia que possuo.

[luc2112]

I think you are the product of whatever country you grew up in, and ancestry isn't that important when it comes to everyday things. For a person like me its a bit complicated though because I grew up in two countries and I have one colonial line in the place I was born and super recent from the one I lived half my life in so I've got dual identity. Although my partner, for example, is Argentine with four Italian grandparents but has no real ties to Italy, no family there, and only has the citizenship and ancestry so in all meaningful ways she's just another Porteña. It would be fucking weird for her to label herself just "Italian" when she has only been there as a tourist and everything she knows is Argentina. She identifies with being Venetian descent, yeah, but never would she label herself just as an Italian.

He is a direct descendant must have much influence from Italians in the family. I know direct descendants here in the south of Brazil as Germans and Slavs they do not have the same behavior as I for example ...

[El_Jibaro]

He is a direct descendant must have much influence from Italians in the family. I know direct descendants here in the south of Brazil as Germans and Slavs they do not have the same behavior as I for example ...

Oh, sorry for such a late reply. I didn't get a notification.

Hmm, well her grandparents all speak Venetian, and they cook the food, etc, but they are mostly just a regular Argentine family. Of course being of Italian descent in Buenos Aires is very common, so its not a big deal. Like, if you speak with her grandparents who arrived in Bs.As roughly around 1940-1960 they will tell you everybody was either Spanish or Italian there. I feel like Argentina is perhaps very different to Brazil in this regard. For example most of my friends in Argentina have Italian surnames but nobody talks about Italy, and I'm only talking about the fact my wife has Italian descent because I am on a European cultural community forum, otherwise she/we don't really care about it.

[luc2112]

As roughly around 1940-1960 they will tell you everybody was either Spanish or Italian there. I feel like Argentina is perhaps very different to Brazil in this regard. For example most of my friends in Argentina have Italian surnames but nobody talks about Italy, and I'm only talking about the fact my wife has Italian descent because I am on a European cultural community forum, otherwise she/we don't really care about it.

That's not what I meant, not is deny the country of birth in relation to the country of origin. It's a family upbringing that is inherited from your parents.
Many Poles and Ukrainians in southern Brazil would barely be able to point out their countries of origin on a map, but they have a lot of influence from their ancestors.

The difference between southern Brazil and Argentina is that in Argentina they received many urban immigrants, in Brazil most of them were farmers...

[El_Jibaro]

That's not what I meant, not is deny the country of birth in relation to the country of origin. It's a family upbringing that is inherited from your parents.
Many Poles and Ukrainians in southern Brazil would barely be able to point out their countries of origin on a map, but they have a lot of influence from their ancestors.

The difference between southern brazil and argentina is that in Argentina they received many urban immigrants in Brazil most of them were farmers...

There is some influence, sure, like I mentioned with the language and food but at the same time they all just feel 100% Argentines. Even her four grandparents born in Veneto feel more Argentine than Italian at this point. I know in Brazil there are isolated communities of Veneziani and Lombardi, but in Argentina that would be really weird. I think it has to do with the amount of immigrants Argentina received in XX century. For example, in 1914 something like ~40% of the Argentine population was foreign born. If they had isolated themselves then half of the country would have lived isolated from the other half which is fucking stupid :lmao

[luc2112]

I know in Brazil there are isolated communities of Veneziani and Lombardi, but in Argentina that would be really weird. I think it has to do with the amount of immigrants Argentina received in XX century. For example, in 1914 something like ~40% of the Argentine population was foreign born. If they had isolated themselves then half of the country would have lived isolated from the other half which is fucking stupid :lmao

They are not isolated, but they founded cities in the interior of Brazil, in fact there was no other influence.
In Argentina you will find something similar with the Germans who immigrated to be farmers in the country's interior.

[Tutankhamun]

There is some influence, sure, like I mentioned with the language and food but at the same time they all just feel 100% Argentines. Even her four grandparents born in Veneto feel more Argentine than Italian at this point. I know in Brazil there are isolated communities of Veneziani and Lombardi, but in Argentina that would be really weird. I think it has to do with the amount of immigrants Argentina received in XX century. For example, in 1914 something like ~40% of the Argentine population was foreign born. If they had isolated themselves then half of the country would have lived isolated from the other half which is fucking stupid :lmao


It's not exactly isolated, they became just farmers in the interior, so much so that my Italian great-grandfather married my great-grandmother who was a Brazilian of colonial origin from the interior of the state of São Paulo, even today if you go to cities in the interior of the state of São Paulo, you will see that out of every 10 farmers at least 5 are of Italian descent.

And Brazil and Argentina received practically the same number of European immigrants, but as Argentina has a smaller population and a smaller country, it seems that they received more.

[Sebastianus Rex]

Creio que a partir da segunda geração de imigrantes a naturalidade assume preponderância. Os laços com a ancestralidade diluem-se com o tempo.

[El_Jibaro]

It's not exactly isolated, they became just farmers in the interior, so much so that my Italian great-grandfather married my great-grandmother who was a Brazilian of colonial origin from the interior of the state of São Paulo, even today if you go to cities in the interior of the state of São Paulo, you will see that out of every 10 farmers at least 5 are of Italian descent.

And Brazil and Argentina received practically the same number of European immigrants, but as Argentina has a smaller population and a smaller country, it seems that they received more.

Oh, I didn't know :eek:. I'm not that knowledgeable about Brazilian history. I know way more about Argentina than any other country when it comes to South America.

[El_Jibaro]

They are not isolated, but they founded cities in the interior of Brazil, in fact there was no other influence.
In Argentina you will find something similar with the Germans who immigrated to be farmers in the country's interior.

True, but Germans are also a huge minority in Argentina compared to Spanish and Italian descents.

I didn't know that about the interior cities in Brazil.

[El_Jibaro]

True, but Germans are a huge minority in Argentina compared to Spanish and Italian descents.

Also, many of them are not proper german descendants, but volgian-german descendants, they have a german basis genetically speaking, yes, but also they have some mix which makes them a little distinct...

[Marshall Theodore]

Ancestralidade, com certeza.

Naturalidade diz absolutamente nada sobre alguém, me sinto muito mais familiarizado com um Basco ou Catalão do que com um brasileiro de ancestralidade eslava ou libanesa, por exemplo.