Meskhian people

[klarji]

Here I will post about the fourth of Kartvelian peoples that forms Kartvelian (Georgian) ethnos alongside with closed related Kart, Zan, Svan peoples.

Meskhians are one of the Kartvelian peoples. Historically they seem to speak Meskhian language the vocabulary of that is now fixed in modern Meskhian dialects of Kart language.
Meskhian language had to be uniting ring between Zan and Kart languages but much closer to Kart. In the first half of the middle ages Meskhians began to lose Meskhian language and using Kart language under increasing Kart tribes influence. Such situation was with Ubykh language when ethnic cleansed from Ubykhia Ubykh population under close relative Circassian influence lost its Ubykh language and adopted Circassian language.
Now Kart language divides into two group of dialects Eastern Georgian (or Iberian, Kartian itself) and Meskhian (Southern Kartian) with remain of the Meskhian language the vocabelary of that can be partly be restored with help of relative Kartvelian languages using linguistic phonetic sound compliances (dont know science term in English language only direct translation).

Meskhians lived historically in the Lesser Caucasus, South-West Georgia, among Karts and Zans. Their living territory was most dangerous as it was on the way of the great nomad masses and politically and economically important for neighbour empires and kingdoms. Other Kartvelians lived more Northern far away from this path saved by Meskhians and neighbour Caucasian Albanians. Thats way they survived more.

Albanians and Meskhians were to some extent smashed. There are some Albanian remains in modern Azerbaijan represented by Albano-Dagestanian little peoples like Udis, Tsakhurs, Budukhs etc and little remains of Meskhian ethnogroups that settle historically Meskheti divided between Turkey and Georgia.

Meskhia or Meskheti nowadays is settled mostly by Turkish or Turkified population from Oghuz group of Turkic language family and Armenians from Indo-European language family that migrated to the Anatolia and then to the Southern Caucasus in the 1 mil BC from the Balkan region.

Meskhians themselves migrated from the their mountains to the Black Sea, brought the Meskhian dialects of the Kart language and divided Zan tribes into modern Laz and Mingrelian Zan subgroups without common borders. They are divided from each other by Gurians - Georgian ethnogroup - of Meskhian ancestry but strong Zan substratum. Many of them recognized in themselves Zan ancestry.

More mountain pure Meskhian mass begins migrating from the mountains to the Black Sea coast towns and villages presently from mountainous Adjara as Black Sea Coast after Gurian Principality lost it to Osman empire became part of Adjara sandjak and still is part Adjara autonomous Republic.

There are such ethnogroups of Meskhians relevant to those mountain vallies and regions where they formed. Eastern Meskhians or Samtskhians - the main Meskhian themselves, Javakhians (Kartian neighbours and more closed to them). Central and Western Meskhians - Shavshians, Klarjians, Tao Meskhians (modern Turkey, a lot Turkified). Adjarians and Gurians (Zano-Meskhian mix) living in modern Georgia. After Osman occupation Adjarians were deTurkified culturally or Turkic elements in their folk dances and sons were cleansed by Kartvelist folklorists. Gurians, except of little part of them (Kobuleti region) was not conquered by Osman empire though it considered the whole Western Kartvelia its part.
The last are Laz neighbours are more close to them than to Karts though they both - Eastern/Central/Western have a lot of in common.

Are very hardworking silent and difference of their Kart relatives, a bit mountainously stupid but a bit artful, avaricious.

Like claiming that they are like Kart kind-natured liking drinking and funs and not such fucki.. Laz who are sly loving money.

Though there are not like Karts. But something between Zan and Karts.

Not such sly as Lazes but not such carefree as Karts

Short story about them...

Furthfor will post videos and pics about them

Am waiting for lil Bori with posts, Meskheti is an old Turkish land, you fuckin Kartvelian, you know nothing, we we we Turkomens are the real ones...

okey

[klarji]

Meskheti is the land of fortresses as the land was always in wars

Khertvisi fortress in Javakheti region of Meskheti


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vufPCWztkcY


"Khertvisi fortress (Georgian: ხერთვისის ციხე) is one of the oldest fortresses in Georgia and was functional throughout the Georgian feudal period. It is situated in Southern Georgia, in Meskheti region. The fortress was first build in the 2nd century BC. The church was built in 985, and the present walls build in 1354. As the legend says, Khertvisi was destroyed by Alexander the Great.
In the 10th-11th centuries it was the center of Meskheti region. During the 12th century it became a town. In the 13th century Mongols destroyed it and until the 15th century it lost its power. In the 15th century it was owned by Meskheti landlords from Jakeli family. In the 16th century the southern region of Georgia was invaded by Turks. During next 300 years they have owned Khertvisi too.

Name Khertvisi comes from the verb designating the confluence of two rivers. In ancient times, during the march to the east, Alexander the Great saw the city-fortress Khertvisi.
Khertvisi fortress is a well-preserved complex construction. The buildings that is prreserved to this day belong to the X-XIX centuries. The fortress consists of two main parts - the citadel and the wall. The Citadel occupies a narrow ledge that is protected by a high vertical cliff. The towers of the fortress are well protected and standing out is the main tower - a building constructed of well-crafted and stacked stones. Also should be noted is the five-sided turret which protects the east side. The fortress is supplied with drinking water through a tunnel, attached from the northwest.

Khertvisi was repeatedly rebuilt. In 1356-1356, Zakaria Kamkamishvili, Treasurer of the King, built the tower and wall. In the XVI century the fortress belonged to the feudal family Hertvisari. In 1578 the Turks captured Khertvisi with other fortresses of Samtskhe - Saatabago. In 1828-1829, after the victory of Russia over Turkey, the fortress was returned to Georgia. At that time, Khertvisi, along with other Georgian fortresses, lost its strategic importance.

Since 2007, the Khertvisi fortress is included in the tentative list of UNESCO World Heritage."

[klarji]

Rabati Castle, one of the unique Kartvelian historical building rebuilt in the 21th century
Samtskhe region of Meskheti


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s8MGA_2u5k


"Rabati Castle (Georgian: რაბათის ციხე), is a medieval castle complex in Akhaltsikhe, Georgia. Built in the 13th century, initially was called the Lomisa castle until it was conquered by Ottomans.

According to The Georgian Chronicles the city was established in the 9th century by Guaram Mampal, son of the King of Tao. From the 13th to the end of 14th centuries it was the capital city of Samtskhe-Saatabago, ruled by the Georgian princely (mtavari) family and a ruling dynasty of the Principality of Samtskhe, the House of Jaqeli.

In 1393 the city was attacked by the armies of Tamerlane. Despite the Turko-Mongol invasions fortress withstood and continued to thrive. After the Treaty of Constantinople in 1590, the whole territory of Samtskhe-Saatabago went under the rule of Ottoman Empire. Turks Mostly used to build defensive edifices. In 1752 first mosque was built in Rabati. In the first half of the 8th century Prince Vakhushti of Kartli writes By the end of the 18th century Metropolitan John writes that "despite the fact that a large part of the population has been Islamized, there's still functioning Orthodox church." After the Treaty of Georgievsk between the Kingdom of Kartli and Russian Empire was signed the question of the fate of Akhaltsikhe arose. The first attempt to take the fortress in 1810 fell. Russians took the city after 18 years in 1828. After the Treaty of Adrianople in 1829, the Ottomans yielded the part of Akhaltiske Region."

[klarji]

Javakheti region, Meskheti, Georgian Republic



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnU3HvcKTi4


" The fortress of Tmogvi was an important fortress-town of Georgia. It stands on a high rocky mountain on the left bank of the Mtkvari river, in Javakheti. In historical sources, The fortress is first mentioned in the 10th century. The upper and the lower parts of the fortress were linked with the secret tunnels.

There is the Efremi church on the massive rock, in the West side of the valley. The 13th century wall paintings are still preserved in the ruins of the other church. There are remains of an abandoned villages, ruins of the palaces and the piers of the bridges preserved on the both banks of the Mtkvari river. One bridge connected two palaces together and the other was for transport use. The fortress was destroyed several times by the earthquake. The famous political figure and philosopher – Sargis Tmogveli – lived and worked in Tmogvi."

[klarji]

Aspindza fortress, Samtskhe region, Meskheti, Georgian Republic


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EKHS5xxgnM

[klarji]

Khikhani Fortress, one of the main fortresses in the history of Georgian people
The national hero Selim Khimshiashvili, the last free ruler of Meskheti, that tried to free the land from Osman empire, after Osmans conquered it again, continued struggling from the Khikhani Fortress in mountainous Adjara region


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1bJboVWydc


"Khikhani Fortress (ხიხანის ციხესიმაგრე) in Khulo district of Ajara was built in the 13th century A.D. Inaccessible from three sides, the fortress occupied a strategic position and retained its military function for 700 years.
It is believed that the site was originally occupied by a church (the Church of St. George) built in 1230 A.D. and the fortress was later built around it.
Situated at a height of 2635 meters above sea level the fortress provides spectacular views.
Tbel Abuseridze (Georgian: ტბელი აბუსერისძე) lived at Khikhani. Abuseridze was a scholar and religious writer, principally known for his treatise, The Complete Timekeeper, which contains information related to calendars, dates of ecclesiastic holidays, and tables of moon rise and moon set. The treatise was the first astronomical work of a theoretical nature produced in Georgia.
Although in ruins today, visitors can see the remains of the rectangular towers, walls, a bakery, wine storage area, a water well and a church."

[klarji]

Here are also a lot of churches, monasteries and also mosques of latter, Ottoman-Russian period, mostly built by Muslimized Kartvelians. Though Kartvelians dont like this period in their history and dont interest in mosques past and present. That I think is not normal.

Zarzma monastery in Samtskhe, Meskheti, Georgian Republic


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOzCQTf0Bxs


The Zarzma Monastery of Transfiguration (Georgian: ზარზმის მონასტერი, zarzmis p'erists'valebis monasteri) is a medieval Orthodox Christian monastery located at the village of Zarzma in Samtskhe-Javakheti region, southwest Georgia.
The Zarzma monastery is nested in the forested river valley of Kvabliani in the Adigeni municipality, 30 km west of the city of Akhaltsikhe. It is the complex of a series of buildings dominated by a domed church and a belfry, one of the largest in Georgia.
The earliest church on the site was probably built in the 8th century, by the monk Serapion whose life is related in the hagiographic novel by Basil of Zarzma. According to his source, the great nobleman Giorgi Chorchaneli made significant donation – including villages and estates – to the monastery. The extant edifice dates from the early years of the 14th century, however. Its construction was sponsored by Beka I, Prince of Samtskhe and Lord High Mandator of Georgia of the Jaqeli family. What has survived from the earlier monastery is the late 10th-century Georgian inscription inserted in the chapel's entrance arch. The inscription reports the military aid rendered by Georgian nobles to the Byzantine emperor Basil II against the rebellious general Bardas Sclerus in 979.In 1544, the new patrons of the monastery – the Khursidze family – refurnished the monastery.
The façades of the church are richly decorated and the interior is frescoed. Apart from the religious cycles of the murals there are a series of portraits of the 14th-century Jaqeli family as well as of the historical figures of the 16th century. After the Ottoman conquest of the area later in the 16th century, the monastery was abandoned and lay in disrepair until the early 20th century, when it was reconstructed, but some of the unique characteristics of the design were lost in the process.
Currently, the monastery is functional and houses a community of Georgian monks. It is also the site of pilgrimage and tourism.
A smaller replica of the Zarzma church, known as Akhali Zarzma ("New Zarzma") is located in the same municipality, near Abastumani. It was commissioned by Grand Duke George Alexandrovich, a member of the Russian imperial family, from the Tbilisi-based architect Otto Jacob Simons who built it between 1899 and 1902, marrying a medieval Georgian design with the contemporaneous architectural forms. Its interior was frescoed by the Russian painter Mikhail Nesterov.

[klarji]

Sapara Monastery, Samtskhe, Meskheti, Georgia


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz2kmidok4o


Sapara Monastery (Georgian: საფარის მონასტერი) is a Georgian Orthodox monastery in the Akhaltsikhe District of Samtskhe-Javakheti region, Georgia.
It has existed from at least the 9th century, and has numbered among its monks many important figures in Georgian ecclesiastical history. At the end of the 13th century Sapara became a possession of the Jakeli family, whose leader, Sargis Jakeli, was adept at staying on good terms with the Mongols, which enabled Samtskhe to enjoy a peace unusual for the time. When he grew old, Sargis took monastic orders and changed his name to Saba. His son Beka built the largest of the 12 churches here, St Saba's Church, named after the saint whose name his father had adopted, one of the most architecturally important churches of its time. The 14th-century frescoes inside are of high quality.

From the end of the 16th century until the beginning of the 17th century the Sapara Monastery became empty due to the expansion of Turkish policy into Samtskhe and during this process the monastery's icons and other treasures were taken to more protected areas of Georgia.

[klarji]

And the Vardzia Nun's Monastery from the cave town of Vardzia, Javakheti, Meskheti, Georgian Republic


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdTXHb0vpQc


Another spiritual currently known as Zeda (upper) Vardzia that is earlier compared to Vardzia Monastery is located north-westward of the latter, in the middle of a small gorge, upstream the Kura River, its main construction – Mother of God church has survived till nowadays. This monument made of hewn stone blocks has got two naves and a porch with arched openings attached from the south that gives to the whole of the construction some resemblance of a three-nave temple. Besides, the structure is covered with a safe double-pitched roof. This type of roofing is determined by hiding shelters arranged over the arches of lateral wings. Two columns separate high and proportionate southern nave – the main one from the secondary, very narrow and dark northern nave, that almost literally serves as a background for a lovely arcade with decorated capitels ets. The frame of the southern entrance, with unbelievably clean and fine fretwork image of cross set on its top is the most impressive of all other details of decoration. According to the construction inscription curved on the stone slab XI c almighty feudal Liparit Eristavt-Eristavi was the church building donor.

Wall painting of the church might be of the same period, although due to the very small portion of the survived frescoes that are in a poor condition, their more accurate dating seems difficult. In the course of time the building itself suffered some damages – southern porch had turned in ruins, but in 70-ies of the last century the church was reconstructed to its original condition.

[klarji]

And Vardzia itself


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA2eB9V50nc


The cave city in Vardzia is one of the most interesting monuments in Georgia - it's an underground system of corridors, like a city. It construction began in 12th century and was finished in 13th century.
This huge complex stretched over a distance of 500 m and had about 3000 rooms connected with each other by passages on 19 floors, all of which were hidden under the ground. Normally, about 2000 monks lived here and took care of 13 churches (only one of them remained today), yet, in times of danger even up to 60,000 people could be accommodated here!
In 13th century there was a huge earthquake, which made the mountain collapsed into the river valley, and revealed the city to its enemies, like Persians and Turks.

[Hadouken]

lol you call the thread "Meskhian people" but dont post any people :lol:

[klarji]

History of Georgia after Constantinople and Georgian Kingdom fell.
The Great Duke family of Meskheti Jaqeli tried to gain freedom for Imereti Kingdom Bagrationi royal family


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO79Mvr6JoI

[klarji]

The flag of Samtskhe principality (samtavro)

http://i63.tinypic.com/r0y1cn.png

The coat

http://i63.tinypic.com/t87z0x.png

[klarji]

lol you call the thread "Meskhian people" but dont post any people :lol:

its their history man

Though I will post them now )))

[klarji]

Alikhan Kuradze, Muslim Meskh. He was deported from Georgia in 1945 by Soviet Russia as "Turk."

During Osman empire local Meskhian population was told by Muslim clerics they are not Georgian more as they left "Orthodoxity"

That was used then by Russian and Soviet empire to cleansed Muslim Georgians as Turks without problems from Orthodox Georgians


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0wZMeoQJwA

He tells his story.
Once after deportation he was aksed about his nationality. He answered his was Muslim. But local guys responded there was no such nation. He answered then He is Caucasian. But there also was no such nation but a lot of peoples living in the region were called "Caucasians".

Then he returned home and asked his mother who they were. Her answer was "We were Georgians but then became Muslims."

This shows a lot the last pages from the history of Meskhi guys. When Meskhian elite to save its privilege stoped their resistance its was easy to assimilate locals with their denationalization first.

Then it was much easier to make them real Turks.

Only a little of them could return from Middle Asia deportation and restored their Georgian surnames and nationality that were changed into Turkish by Sovietikus.

[klarji]

Meskhian cousine from Samtskhe region, Meskhian women making Meskhian cheese "Chechili"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8eOljdZeNg

[klarji]

Here Javakhi ethogroup cousing from Javakheti region
Meskhian women from Javakhi ethnogroup making local traditional pastry


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu9Fw7bDMTo

[klarji]

In Samtskhe-Javakheti they like eating snails
Because of it they are called snaileaters by other Kartvelians


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki6GyO47KYQ

[klarji]

How to bake bread


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8esRB6XHda4

[klarji]

Muslim Meskhian aristocrat family from Samtskhe region of Meskheti
Memmed Ali Bagration-Mukhraneli, his wife Susi and children

http://i65.tinypic.com/34rx1uf.jpg

[klarji]

The Meskhian ansamble "Vardzia" - "My Meskheti"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOy8YA-4g5Q

Historical Meskheti is divided between modern Turkey and Georgia.
Meskhians themsevles are in minority in modern Meskheti after Russian/Osman occupation of the region.
It was settled by two empires witi Turkish, Kurdish, Turkmen, Russian, Armenian etc population to create there ethnical diversity and assimilate local population.
In Georgian Meskheti there settled also other Kartvelian subethnoses and ethnographical groups too.
The most funny thing is that Turks and Armenian singers often sing and make clips also about Meskheti as their own lands. :D showing Meskhian cassltes, towers and churches and arguing that they are there aboriginal.
Though Indo-Europeans and Turkics can not be there aboriginal. Armenians migrated there only in the 19th century, Anatolian Turks in the 17-18 th centuries. :D but their propagandists with their clips are very funny.

[klarji]

The medival principality of Samtskhe (Meskheti) - the most glorious pages in the history of the Meskhian people


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW8hYJtpch4

[klarji]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t76Ui3vWWc

[klarji]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNyQNNgo7MY

[klarji]

Very Turkified


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ewEmO49_uw

[klarji]

Meskheti is divided now between Georgia (Adjara, Samtskhe-Saatabago) and Turkey (Artvin province)

Artvin "Turkish" culture is in reality Meskhian culture but official Turkey does not recignize ethnic minorities and tries to Turkified them all with their cultures. There is now settled Turkish populated who copypasted culture of locals


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaRPFlI8FbM

[klarji]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jx_vC1Jqek

Turkey Meskheti Meskhians from Klarji tribe

[klarji]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZAdMcQJMiY

[Anxiety]

Wait, are they different from Meskhetian Turks / Ahiska Turks? Their name and story sounds very familliar. I was just watching videos of Ahiska Turks who were forcefully removed from their homes and deported to Central Asia, while others are currently living in Turkey.

[klarji]

Wait, are they different from Meskhetian Turks / Ahiska Turks? Their name and story sounds very familliar. I was just watching videos of Ahiska Turks who were forcefully removed from their homes and deported to Central Asia, while others are currently living in Turkey.

"Ahiska Turks" are in reality Anatolian Turks, Terekeme people, Kurds and Turkified Meskhians who were deported in 1944 called "Turks" by Moscow

Turkified Meskhians how I know call themselves "yerli" or "native" Muslims.

They all live isolated and dont mix with each other.

After Muslim Meskhians were deported from Samtskhe-Javakheti written as Turks, there stayed only Christian Meskhians. Some "Ahiska Turks" of Meskhian origin returned home and restored their surnames and nacionality.

They have a lot of in common of course.

Whats about deported Ahiska Kurds and Terekemians they were nomad people and did not live in Meskhian villages together. So how I know they are quite different from "native Muslims"

Whats about Anatolians Turks who lived in Samtskhe (Ahiska in Turkish) they lived together with Muslim Meskhians. How I was told they are now mixed with each other but "natives" remember which of families are Anatolian migrants of Osman period calling them "gelme" or "arrivers".

They both speak Turkish language, have Turkish dances and music. But the "native Muslims" look like other Kartvelians, for example have long hoocked noses and sometimes have Georgian surnames like Chkeidze, Baratashvili, Eristavi, Beridze etc

Whats about not assimilated Meskhians they are much more original even those who live in Artvin province and have Turkish cultural influence

[klarji]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCZpVmOXnuM

for example these two are natives Ahiskas. Their surnames are Shagil Chkeidze and Akhmed Zautadze. The first is typical Kartvelian and the second has very Georgian accents. Native Azerbaianians and Turks have different accents. Think there is Georgian substratum in their Turkish language and he pronounces Caucasian abruptives or sharp sound Caucasian consonants that make Caucasian accent sharp sounding.

Also they have many Georgian words like xvliki, makvali, kakali, pumpula etc ) in their Turkish dialect

[Anxiety]

Thank you! This is very interesting! So Ahiska Turks are actually not of Georgian but Turks who settled there during the Ottoman times and then were later cleansed by Russia.

I believe I have Ahiska ancestors. My grandmothers mother's surname is "Ahiskalioglu" (Son of the Ahiska) which is not a common Turkish surname at all. I believe she told me her father was from Georgia as well but I have to ask her again.

You seem to know a lot about that region. Can you maybe tell me about Circassians if u have the time? My grandfather is a refugee from Abhkazia (I think) and I know nothing about them. He was blond with green eyes and looked very Russian-like and his ancestors have Christian names like "Megan" who married "Fatmet" who had a daughter called "Maç".

[klarji]

Thank you! This is very interesting! So Ahiska Turks are actually not of Georgian but Turks who settled there during the Ottoman times and then were later cleansed by Russia.

Russians called them all Ahiska Turks. If we call Ahiska Turks only those people who are descendants of Anatolia Turks of Osmanic period, so they are. But a lot of "natives" call themselves also Turks. But not Anatolian, Osman Turks but different people. Whats about Kurds and Terekeme people officcialy they are also Ahiska Turks made such by Kremlin politics for their easy departion. But they are not assimilated into Turks.



You seem to know a lot about that region. Can you maybe tell me about Circassians if u have the time? My grandfather is a refugee from Abhkazia (I think) and I know nothing about them. He was blond with green eyes and looked very Russian-like and his ancestors have Christian names like "Megan" who married "Fatmet" who had a daughter called "Maç".

In Turkey all muhacirs from the North Caucasus are called "Circassians" but in reality and here in the Caucasus we called Circassian only Agyghe people. Abkhazians are not Circassians but their closed relatives. They both are from the aboriginal Caucasian language family called Abkhazo-Adyghean languages. There are 3 or five languages :Abkhazo-Abazinian (sometimes thought as two independent but much closed languages Abkazian and Abazian), Ubykhian that is disapeared now after Abkhazo-Adyghean peoples genocide in the 19th century. And also Circassian or Adyghean language or Adygebze. Though linguistic science said there is two languages - Adyghean and Kabardinian or upper Adyghean. They both are closest and belong to one Circassian group of Abkhazo-Adyghean family. Ubykh language is something between Abkhazo-Adyghean and Circassian languages.
There are some ethnographical division among all AA peoples, but especcially among the most numerous Circassians. There are or were before genocide many Circassian ethnographical groups like Shapsugs, Abadzekhs, Bjedukhs etc.
Very cpecifis and original language family world among Caucasian peoples. They have a lot of common with others but also very specific



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXDQFBmg1GI

[klarji]

Christian Meskhian girl http://i67.tinypic.com/2uswqpd.jpg

Muslim Meskhian girl http://i64.tinypic.com/16bipfl.jpg

from Samzche region in religious variations of the Samzche Meskhian national costume and headdress