What do you consider to be Western Europe?

[Sikeliot]

Different definitions are often used. Which do you consider to be the definition of Western Europe?

France, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Germany, Austria, and Switzerland are always included.

But do you consider Scandinavia as Western Europe? What about Spain and Portugal? The British Isles? Italy? Greece?

Here are different maps of "Western Europe"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Western-Europe-map.png

http://www.europeanunionmaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/western-europe-wind-map.jpg

http://www.ctcintl.com/images/WesternEuropeMap.jpg

http://www.energy.ca.gov/lng/worldwide/images/western_europe_map-a.gif

[Odoacer]

http://www.ctcintl.com/images/WesternEuropeMap.jpg

Except for Greece (and possibly Finland), this is what I typically think of as "Western Europe" - that is, as opposed to "Eastern Europe," so not considering what is "Northern," "Southern," or "Central."

[Ibericus]

http://www.energy.ca.gov/lng/worldwide/images/western_europe_map-a.gif
This one seems more realistic

[Arne]

Scandinavia as Western Europe? What about Spain and Portugal? The British Isles? Italy? Greece?
Brits. islands ,Spain and Portugal
Italy lies eastern even the same as greek does.

[Sikeliot]

Brits. islands ,Spain and Portugal
Italy lies eastern even the same as greek does.

What about France, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland and Austria?

[gold_fenix]

western Europe, countries were celtic

[Arne]

What about France, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland and Austria?

Yes they are if excluding Austria.
It was connected to Hungary.

[Rouxinol]

If talking strictly only in terms of East/West geography, I would draw it like this:

Western Europe:
- Portugal
- Spain
- France
- Belgium
- Luxembourg
- Netherlands
- United Kingdom
- Ireland
- Iceland

But I tend to extend it to Italy, Switzerland, Lichtenstein, Germany, Denmark, Sweden and Norway, which are geographically center (if we mind to include one), I believe.

[Arne]

If talking strictly only in terms of East/West geography, I would draw it like this:

Western Europe:
- Portugal
- Spain
- France
- Belgium
- Luxembourg
- Netherlands
- United Kingdom
- Ireland
- Iceland (NO)

But I tend to extend it to Italy(eastern), Switzerland(has much celtic western influence), Lichtenstein(who cares), West- Germany, Denmark(no they are more northern), Sweden and Norway(the same).

[Birka]

I think more in terms of Northern and Southern Europe.

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-PCBmdeUJaI4/TYaABUZKInI/AAAAAAAABRM/Mj_NevL5JOU/s1600/NATO_vs_Warsaw_%25281949-1990%2529.png

Blue is Westies, Red is Easties

[Eldritch]

The probability of this thread having to be locked or moved to Big Fight after 20 pages of head-butting?

I'd estimate it's somewhat higher than that of the Sun rising from the east and setting to the west tomorrow.

[Sikeliot]

The probability of this thread having to be locked or moved to Big Fight after 20 pages of head-butting?

I'd estimate it's somewhat higher than that of the Sun rising from the east and setting to the west tomorrow.

There is no arguing so far.

[Eldritch]

The operative words being "so far".

But anyway, let's hope it stays that way. :)

One can always hope -- I personally am hoping that tomorrow precisely at 11:47 am. it will start raining gas-masked Adolf Hitlers into my back yard.

[poiuytrewq0987]

The operative words being "so far".

But anyway, let's hope it stays that way. :)

One can always hope -- I personally am hoping that tomorrow precisely at 11:47 am. it will start raining gas-masked Adolf Hitlers into my back yard.

Blame the O.E., the Original Emo.

http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/original_emo.jpg

[askra]

East Europe: all ex countries that were under of Warsaw Pact, plus ex Yugoslavia, and Albania but not ex east Germany territories.

West Europe: the rest (Finland, Sweden, Norway, Iceland, UK, Ireland, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, switzerland, Austria, Greece, Holland, etc)

i know, my vision of Western Europe is very anachronistic!

[Comte Arnau]

Green: the West
Dark green: the very West

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/226/apwest.jpg

[Lábaru]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/CIA_Western-Europe-map2.png

British Isles and Ireland would be the western North, France the western central and Spain and Portugal the western South, the rest is the center-south-north-east of Europe ect...

[Magister Eckhart]

Western Europe is the part of Europe now subject or once subject to the Roman Catholic Church. Eastern Europe is Orthodoxy. "The West" is Europe excluding all forms of Eastern Catholicism, Coptic Christianity, and Russian Orthodoxy.

[Portukalos]

For me? in pure geographical terms.

North Western Europe : British isles
Central Western Europe (proper) : France and Belgium.
South Western Europe : Spain Portugal

[Hess]

depends on which type of system you use. In some systems, the is no central Europe, but just North, West, East, South. In others, it's west, Central, East.

[Portukalos]

Brits. islands ,Spain and Portugal
Italy lies eastern even the same as greek does.
Although Italy does lies towards Southeastern..... ....I think it should be considered just simply as South Europe (+ culturally most of Italy overlaps with SouthEast France better than Balkans).

[Sikeliot]

(+ culturally most of Italy overlaps with SouthEast France better than Balkans).


This is true. Except for places like Apulia, Calabria etc.

[rich86]

All of the above plus Italy.

[Beorn]

France, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Austria, Switzerland, Germany
All of the above plus the British Isles.
All of the above plus Scandinavia.
All of the above plus Spain and Portugal.
All of the above plus Italy.
All of the above plus Greece.


I didn't vote on the principle that the format was incorrect.

[Sikeliot]

What about it did you not like?

[Beorn]

The suggestion that Western European countries aren't Western European.

[Matritensis]

For me:UK,France,Germany,Norway,Sweden,Denmark,Austria ,Italy,Switzerland,Spain,Portugal,Holland,Greece,I celand,Belgium and Ireland.

[Sikeliot]

The suggestion that Western European countries aren't Western European.


Such as?

It depends.. are you guys going by geography purely when deciding this?

[Beorn]

Thread already exists on that subject.
(http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7583&highlight=western)

[Sikeliot]

Not quite. This refers to Western Europe, not "The West".

[Beorn]

Not quite. This refers to Western Europe, not "The West".

Four pages in and now you give details. I only saw pictures with no context. :)

[Sikeliot]

The thread title says "what do you consider to be Western Europe?" lol

[Beorn]

The thread title says "what do you consider to be Western Europe?" lol

And 'the West' is situated on Mars?

[Matritensis]

On west Mars.

[Sikeliot]

And 'the West' is situated on Mars?

Well I thought the other thread was more about what parts of the New World qualify as "western" since for some, only the US and Canada do.

[Zephyr]

There:

http://acreetree.net/zdnamap3.jpg

Western Europe.

[Osweo]

The Romano-German Proddo-Papist world has a certain particularness about it... An outsider like Lev Gumilyov could certainly see it, anyroad.

Why do you care, Tuga Princessa?

[Guapo]

I've heard people say that Portugal is the butthole of Europe :confused:

[Sikeliot]

I was just curious. Western Europe is so vaguely defined.. sometimes it includes Scandinavia and Italy, sometimes not, and sometimes it even includes Greece (which I don't understand why). :lol:

[Zephyr]

I was just curious. Western Europe is so vaguely defined.. sometimes it includes Scandinavia and Italy, sometimes not, and sometimes it even includes Greece (which I don't understand why). :lol:

It doesn't seem so vaguely defined from here.

You are probably mixing the Cold War maps with European Union maps...

...which have little to do with Western Europe. :thumb001:

[Matritensis]

I was just curious. Western Europe is so vaguely defined.. sometimes it includes Scandinavia and Italy, sometimes not, and sometimes it even includes Greece (which I don't understand why). :lol:


Greece should be included because it had an enormous influence in Rome,the grandmother of modern Europe.Whoever doesn't include Greece in Western Europe is an ignorant pitiful prick,or cunt.:D

[Sikeliot]

Well for cultural reasons I can see grouping Greece with Western Europe, but geographically it isn't western so that dispels the idea that geographical designations are solely geographical.

[Rouxinol]

I was just curious. Western Europe is so vaguely defined.. sometimes it includes Scandinavia and Italy, sometimes not, and sometimes it even includes Greece (which I don't understand why). :lol:

I think it's because at some point in time they were the only in the East to have joined the European Union... And since it happen during the Cold War, Greece became a Western bastion in a Commie dominated east. So, I guess it's been politically motivated.

[Sikeliot]

And also probably that Ancient Greek cultural elements have become part of Western civilization.

[poiuytrewq0987]

And also probably that Ancient Greek cultural elements have become part of Western civilization.

So is Eastern Europe Eastern civilization?

[SaxonCeorl]

I chose "all of the above plus Greece," as Greece is, after all, the ancient homeland of so much of Western culture. I'm not sure if I would include Iceland or the Czech Republic, but perhaps. To me, the notion of "Western Europe" is part cultural and part racial (Celtic, Germanic, and Mediterranean).

Also, there seems to have been a lot of cultural sharing between all of these countries for the past 2000 years or so, ever since the great Germanic migrations. The Slavic peoples, meanwhile, seem to have been off on their own more during all this time.

[Zephyr]

People keep mixing up what's the concept of western Europe with a vague concept of western world seen on the tv.

How could Austria ever be considered Western Europe if themselves are the "Österreich" (Eastern Realm) in the "Mitteleuropa" (Central Europe)?

[Odoacer]

How could Austria ever be considered Western Europe if themselves are the "Österreich" (Eastern Realm) in the "Mitteleuropa" (Central Europe)?

"Österreich" is the eastern edge of the German lands, which are part of Western Europe. That's how. :tongue

[Comte Arnau]

The thing is: are we talking about The West as a civilization or about Western Europe? Greece is a fundamental part of The West indeed but it is not part of Western Europe, whether geographically or culturally --as it is an orthodox country with a Greco-Cyrillic alphabet, two typical elements of eastern Europe.

To me, Western Europe covers the two western corners: the Teuton and the Roman (except for Romania). But in my head, the image of Western Europe is almost reduced to the very West of Europe, that is, its western shores from Portugal to Norway, Atlantic Europe, lands of seamen, nice seafood and shitty weather. :D

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2206/2208572975_d53c97b0f4.jpg

[Murphy]

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/7049/45678w.png

[Magister Eckhart]

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/7049/45678w.png

With this I must disagree. Austria and Croatia are most certainly part of Central Europe if you're going to include Central Europe in the divisions.

[Gaztelu]

Western:


Andorra
Belgium
Denmark
France
Iceland
Ireland
Netherlands
Norway
Portugal
Spain
Sweden
United Kingdom

[Sikeliot]

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/7049/45678w.png

I agree except I'd either include all of Germany, and expand Central Europe a bit more.

[Murphy]

I think there's a valid difference between Catholic Germans and Protestant-Prussians which the modern German state is the product of.

[Comte Arnau]

Central Europe = German-speaking Europe.

[Äike]

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/7049/45678w.png

If Finland is Northern-European/Western-European, then so is Estonia.

Only extremely ignorant individuals label us as Eastern-Europeans.

[Murphy]

If Finland is Northern-European/Western-European, then so is Estonia.

Only extremely ignorant individuals label us as Eastern-Europeans.

The Finns are not western Europeans, they're just northern, and you're all eastern.

Get over it.

[Äike]

The Finns are not western Europeans, they're just northern, and you're all eastern.

Get over it.

No one considers the Finns nor the Estonians to be Eastern-Europeans, we are Northern-Europeans.

[Ivanushka-supertzar]

lol Nobody wants to be Eastern-european. :D

[Wyn]

http://i.imgur.com/r9oDp.png

[Äike]

lol Nobody wants to be Eastern-european. :D

The Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Moldavians and the Balkanites don't have a problem with being Eastern-European.

[Magister Eckhart]

I think there's a valid difference between Catholic Germans and Protestant-Prussians which the modern German state is the product of.

But why put Catholic Poles in with the Prussians?

I think that you certainly have to accept that Central Europe is defined by a Lutheran-Catholic culture that certainly spans all German lands, Cisleithania and Transleithania. All one needs to do is look at Josephinism and Jansenism to see that the very same piety struck deep to the heart of religion in the German lands "von der Maas bis an die Memel, von der Etsch bis an den Belt" and further took quite a strong hold in Croatia and Hungary as well.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/CentralEurope.png

[Nurzat]

my division of Europe would be:

Western: Ireland, UK, France, Benelux, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Liechtenstein
Northern: Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Faroes, Aland
Baltic: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania
Eastern: Russia, Eastern Ukraine, Belarus, Moldavia, Eastern Romania
Central: Poland, Czech Rep, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary, Western Ukraine, Western & Northern Romania
Balkanic: rest of ex-Yugoslavia, Southern Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, Greece
Southern: Italy, Malta, Spain, Portugal, San Marino, Andorra, Monaco, French Riviera

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8641/mysteryofthecentury.png

[Äike]

my division of Europe would be:

Western: Ireland, UK, France, Benelux, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Liechtenstein
Northern: Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Faroes, Aland
Baltic: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania

:no000000:

The Estonians aren't Baltic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balts). The Estonians and the Finns are Finnic and both populations belong into the Northern group.

[Nurzat]

:no000000:

The Estonians aren't Baltic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balts). The Estonians and the Finns are Finnic and both populations belong into the Northern group.

i didn't make the grouping after linguistic criteria... the soviet heritage of estonia makes it culturally baltic, which to me is initially nordic but with some soviet customs won on the road. the soviet era definitely shaped a bit different material culture for the three states. it is a geographic designation

[poiuytrewq0987]

:no000000:

The Estonians aren't Baltic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balts). The Estonians and the Finns are Finnic and both populations belong into the Northern group.

Baltic = Northern.

[Murphy]

No one considers the Finns nor the Estonians to be Eastern-Europeans, we are Northern-Europeans.

I'm sorry but.. Balts are considered eastern Europeans by just about.. everyone. Finns? Northern.

[Äike]

i didn't make the grouping after linguistic criteria...

Neither did I.


the soviet heritage of estonia makes it culturally baltic, which to me is initially nordic but with some soviet customs won on the road.

What Soviet heritage? Do you think this is Ukraine? The only "Soviet heritage" I know of is that some Eastern-European/Slavic foods became popular here. Our culture is still the same. "Culturally Baltic"... A random Lithuanian is culturally closer to a Slovak than he is to an Estonian.


the soviet era definitely shaped a bit different material culture for the three states

50 years isn't usually a long enough time to change anything in a population's culture. I would understand that you if we would have been occupied by the culturally extremely alien Soviets for 500 years, but that's not the case.

Things in Eastern-European Balto-Slavic Ukraine are radically different from Northern-European Estonia.

Only an extremely dumb person thinks that a new meta-ethnicity was formed in 50 years, disregarding 5000 years of history. As I said the only change I know of is Eastern-European/Balto-Slavic cuisine that came here.

[Äike]

Baltic = Northern.

...No


I'm sorry but.. Balts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balts) are considered eastern Europeans by just about.. everyone. Finns? Northern.

Those Balts give me Eastern-European vibes sometimes, because Lithuanian criminals are responsible for most car thefts in Estonia. But I wouldn't say that they're Eastern-Europeans.

By the way, you just proved that the Estonians are Northern, with your post. Google "Balts" and click on the first link, the non-Baltic Estonians aren't included, because we are kin to the Finns. :)

[Aramis]

Central Europe = German-speaking Europe.

Nah. Not necesseraly german "speaking"

Central Europe = Germany, Austria, and all of their former imperial territories.

[Agrippa]

http://www.energy.ca.gov/lng/worldwide/images/western_europe_map-a.gif

I can largely agree with this map - after all we can distinguish Western Europe in the narrower sense (essentially the Western part of the Frankish Kingdom, France and Benelux) and North Western (British islands) and South Western (Iberia).

Germany, Switzerland and Austria are to me Central Europe, not Western Europe - "Western only" after World War Two in a political sense, because not being on the Warshaw Pact/Comecon/Soviet side.

If you don't use Central Europe as a term, then Western, but this is unusual to me, German lands are usually considered being part of Central Europe.

[Peerkons]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg/680px-Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg.png

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg/680px-Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg.png

I agree with this map.

[Magister Eckhart]

:no000000:

The Estonians aren't Baltic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balts). The Estonians and the Finns are Finnic and both populations belong into the Northern group.

http://satwcomic.com/art/party-crasher.jpg

[Curtis24]

Western European countries are defined by their access to the Atlantic Ocean, and thus their building of empires..

[Albion]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8834&stc=1&d=1304194142

Red is northern Europe, dark red is Northwest Europe, orange is central Europe, yellow is eastern Europe, green is western Europe and blue is south east Europe.

[Agrippa]

Central Europe:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/Mitteleuropa2.png/220px-Mitteleuropa2.png

Benelux and Northern Italy is borderline to West/South of course.

[Ibericus]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg/680px-Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg.png
France in central Europe ?

[Agrippa]

France in central Europe ?

The map is crap. Italy as "Western Europe" is equally stupid (no Southern Europe at all?) and the Baltic countries..actually the whole map is a mess.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Might be easier to define Europe based on actual geographic boundaries than boundaries established by war.

[Albion]

Might be easier to define Europe based on actual geographic boundaries than boundaries established by war.

I based it on culture and geography as opposed to politics. The benelux was hard to place.

[Hussar]

Although Italy does lies towards Southeastern..... ....I think it should be considered just simply as South Europe (+ culturally most of Italy overlaps with SouthEast France better than Balkans).


Defining exactly Italy is less obvious than many think here.


in general : the main problem of this kind of threads is the methodology ; i mean the principal assumption (or the will), to respect the political borders of the nations, so the need to collocate an entire nation (in its political borders) under a definition or in another, forgetting that sometimes inside a nation are hidden so great differences to allow an "asymmetric placement" (for example some regions of a nation can belong to the "east" while others to the "north")


Focusing on the italian case : the first fundamental division of italian contest is the one i would call "continent vs. mediterranean sea". Northern Italy is part of continental Europe (its southern fringe) substantially, through the alpine chain. So can be called "continental Italy".

Central-southern Italy covers the peninsula more properly and can be called "mediterranean Italy".

north-western belt around the alps (an imaginary line from Milan to Turin, to say) is without doubt a variant of WESTERN Europe under any aspect (historical, economic, genetic, etc.) and clusters fundamentally with France.

North-eastern Italy (Lombardo-Veneto/Friuli, that was part of Hapsbourgic empire) was considered mittel-europa until 19th century, then changed definition in "mediterranean" since became part of unified Reign of Italy (so it means that political factor are more important than the geographical ones ? Or, even more radically, it's the POLITIC to shape the definitions while geography, per sè, it's just a neutral meaningless science...?


Peninsular Italy is without doubt generically southern Europe (south-eastern toward the extreme south, f. ex. Sicily)

[kwp_wp]

lol Nobody wants to be Eastern-european. :D

I don't care... I could be perceived as Eastern European, no problem :)

[Rouxinol]

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/8541/europemap.jpg

Different shades of blue are southwestern (Portugal and Spain), western (France) and northwestern Europe (Low Countries and the British Isles).

Yellow is south/southeastern Europe.

Dark green is central Europe.

Light green is northern Europe.

Red is eastern Europe.

Well, maybe Bulgaria is eastern too, so I would paint it red also.

[Ivanushka-supertzar]

I don't care... I could be perceived as Eastern European, no problem :)

Now that's the spirit. :thumbs up

[Äike]

http://satwcomic.com/art/party-crasher.jpg

I have seen this before.

The term "3 Baltic sisters" is completely foreign and never heard of in Estonia. I first found about it 6 months ago, it's something that the Balts have made up. They call their countries and our country, "3 Baltic sisters", while no Estonian knows anything about this term.

This artist has tried to represent this term, but when an Estonian sees this, he is mostly puzzled. It is another example of foreigners(Balts in this case) putting us into groups, where we do not belong.

This isn't even funny. It's the same as saying that the Austrians are more similar to the French than they are to the Germans.

[Ivanushka-supertzar]

http://satwcomic.com/art/party-crasher.jpg


lol this is so true.

[Magister Eckhart]

I have seen this before.

The term "3 Baltic sisters" is completely foreign and never heard of in Estonia. I first found about it 6 months ago, it's something that the Balts have made up. They call their countries and our country, "3 Baltic sisters", while no Estonian knows anything about this term.

This artist has tried to represent this term, but when an Estonian sees this, he is mostly puzzled. It is another example of foreigners(Balts in this case) putting us into groups, where we do not belong.

This isn't even funny. It's the same as saying that the Austrians are more similar to the French than they are to the Germans.

I think your reaction only makes it funnier, because it provides a real-life example of the truth contained in the comic. Further, it's quite accurate to anyone who isn't an Estonian desperately trying to gain recognition as a Nord. The Scandinavians simply don't see Estonia as one of them, and in reality they are in a better position to decide such a matter than the Estonians. Having spoken to a Swede and a Dane about the subject, and having heard their opinions, I have to say I agree with the Nordic countries: Estonia is Baltic, or if it's not Baltic it's just Estonia, but it's definitely not Scandinavian or Nordic.

[Äike]

lol this is so true.

Trolling the Estonians is popular, I see.

[Ivanushka-supertzar]

Trolling the Estonians is popular, I see.

Poor Karl, you dont even realize that yourself being living proof of this comics.

[Äike]

Poor Karl, you dont even realize that yourself being living proof of this comics.

I'm just an extremely stubborn individual who gets more fed up, with being called a Balt, daily. Calling a cat, a dog, doesn't turn the cat into a dog/Calling the Estonians, Baltic, doesn't turn them into Baltic people. Most people probably realize this, but they just like troll us.

Did the Estonians and Livonians fight against the Baltic tribes to be called Baltic 700 years later? No they did not, they fought to maintain their people and their language. The Livonians perished, but we didn't.

Oh and btw, if I would be Baltic, which I'm not, then you'd be calling me Kārlis, not Karl.

[Guapo]

Kārlis, i like that.

[Franz]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Western-Europe-map.png

That's roughly my opinion of the West. Odd you post it with that poll.

West: Ireland, England, Wales, Scotland, France
South: Portugal, Spain, Italy, SE France
Central: German lands
Eastcentral: Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia, Poland
East: Russia, Ukraine, Belarus
Southeast: Balkans
North: Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Iceland, SW Finland
Northeast: Finland

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

http://i.imgur.com/r9oDp.png


Why do Italy and Balcanic peninsula are respectevely South and South East, while Spain and Portugal are defined only as West and not South West?

[Agrippa]

Why do Italy and Balcanic peninsula are respectevely South and South East, while Spain and Portugal are defined only as West and not South West?

And Poland, Hungary and Slovakia are definitely (Eastern) Central Europe...

[Zephyr]

Why do Italy and Balcanic peninsula are respectevely South and South East, while Spain and Portugal are defined only as West and not South West?

It's acceptable. The gap between the Balkans and the Russias is wider than between Portugal and Ireland, so to say. In most of aspects.

You can easily mistake an english woman like Kate Middleton for a Portuguese. You can not mistake Putin for a Croatian or Greek.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Got to love everyone's obsession over this purely because it's horrible to be associated with them dirty Eastern Europeans or swarthoid Southern Europeans. Dreadful indeed.

[Zephyr]

Got to love everyone's obsession over this purely because it's horrible to be associated with them dirty Eastern Europeans or swarthoid Southern Europeans. Dreadful indeed.

:lol: so true!!

[Magister Eckhart]

Got to love everyone's obsession over this purely because it's horrible to be associated with them dirty Eastern Europeans or swarthoid Southern Europeans. Dreadful indeed.

Speaking just for myself, as a historian my field disappears if there isn't a Central Europe, so that's my obsession. Historians classify Central Europe as: Prussia, Austria, Saxony, Bavaria, Wurtemburg, Baden, Westphalia, Hesse, Brandenburg, Pommerania, Silesia, Tyrol, Salzburg, Alsace, Lorraine, Luxembourg, Hanover, Holland, Limburg, Flanders, Wallonia, Switzerland, Hungary, Croatia, Venice, Bohemia, Moravia, and other various German small states.

Or, the short list: Greater Germany, Greater Hungary, the Low Countries, and Switzerland.

Everything else is up for grabs, however you want to slice-and-dice it. Ultimately, though, I think it's unfair to see the Balkans, etc. lumped into "Eastern Europe". "Eastern Europe" to me really is only the Russias (Ukraine, Belarus, Moscovy). Even portions of contemporary Russia (Karelia) seem to me to be outside of this Eastern European realm simply because the cultural drives there are not inherently tied to the Russian Culture.

[Norbert]

It's complicated, there's a lot of overlap.

I think anything west of and including Germany is Western Europe, and anything east of and including Poland is Eastern-Europe. Anything around and above the Baltic sea is Northern Europe, and anything below France, Austria, Switzerland, and Hungary is southern...

[Breedingvariety]

This is how I see it- Regions of Europe:

[Agrippa]

This is how I see it- Regions of Europe:

One of the best maps shown so far. A good approach at least.

[mymy]

This is how I see it- Regions of Europe:


One of the best maps shown so far. A good approach at least.

Agree. Good map.

[Hussar]

As i said, i refuse the interference caused by political borders in the definition of north/south/east/west Europe. So i tried to elaborate a map without political borders.
So the borders won't be marked and stright lines, but rather like a "fog" reflecting a fluid continuum.


DARK BLUE = north-western Europe (pure Atlantic belt)

LIGHT BLUE = western Europe (generic atlanto-continental belt)

YALLOW = south-western Europe ( atlanto-med belt)

BROWN = south-eastern Europe (balkanic belt)

DARK GREEN = central-Europe (pure continental belt)

MID- GREEN = north-Europe

LIGHT GREEN = north-eastern Europe (Finno-baltic belt)

LIGHT RED = eastern Europe (generic)


The wide degree of overlapping between these zones will be difficult to understand for several obeservers here (i'm sure at 99%.....) but i think it's fundamental to get the deep complexity of Europe.
Many could point out how imprecise is in some details, but, i remind them it's not my profession to draw maps for the forums and my intention was just to give a general, but intelligent idea of our continent :



http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/09a39f7868.gif (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

[Svanhild]

My definition of Western Europe:

http://www.erlebnisreisen-abenteuerreisen.de/fileadmin/img/westeuropa.jpg

My definition of Southern Europe:

http://www.erlebnisreisen-abenteuerreisen.de/fileadmin/img/suedeuropa.jpg

My definition of Eastern Europe (without Kasachstan, Georgia, Armenia and Aserbaidschan, ofc); parts overlap with Southern Europe hence these parts connote South-Eastern Europe:

http://www.erlebnisreisen-abenteuerreisen.de/fileadmin/img/osteuropa.jpg

My definition of Northern Europe:

http://www.maxtravelz.com/upload/de/4/43/NEuropecolour3.png

My definition of Central Europe:

http://ebookprofi.net/DACH.png

[Rouxinol]

Got to love everyone's obsession over this purely because it's horrible to be associated with them dirty Eastern Europeans or swarthoid Southern Europeans. Dreadful indeed.


:lol: so true!!

My map says Southwestern Europe to Portugal and Spain (Iberian peninsula) so... It's not so true. :P

Now, I think it's stupid to call just Southern to the westernmost point in Europe, which is located in Cabo da Roca, Portugal. :lol:

[Äike]

As i said, i refuse the interference caused by political borders in the definition of north/south/east/west Europe. So i tried to elaborate a map without political borders.
So the borders won't be marked and stright lines, but rather like a "fog" reflecting a fluid continuum.


DARK BLUE = north-western Europe (pure Atlantic belt)

LIGHT BLUE = western Europe (generic atlanto-continental belt)

YALLOW = south-western Europe ( atlanto-med belt)

BROWN = south-eastern Europe (balkanic belt)

DARK GREEN = central-Europe (pure continental belt)

MID- GREEN = north-Europe

LIGHT GREEN = north-eastern Europe (Finno-baltic belt)

LIGHT RED = eastern Europe (generic)


The wide degree of overlapping between these zones will be difficult to understand for several obeservers here (i'm sure at 99%.....) but i think it's fundamental to get the deep complexity of Europe.
Many could point out how imprecise is in some details, but, i remind them it's not my profession to draw maps for the forums and my intention was just to give a general, but intelligent idea of our continent :



http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/09a39f7868.gif (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

Placing the Finnic Estonians and the Finns into the same (cultural) group with the Balts is absurd. A Lithuanian is more similar to a Slovak than he is to an Estonian. Their identity has been built up in the Catholic religion, while the Estonians and the Finns are 100% Lutheran countries + they're Balts. The Latvians are borderline case with 50/50 Catholic/Lutheran, but they're still Baltic, not like us.

[Hussar]

My definition of Western Europe:



No offense (i don't judge the ideas of others), but in comparison with the effort put by other bembers to give articulate definitions of the continental subdivision.......yours are quite simplified and childish.

[Comte Arnau]

People here dividing regions by state borders are always going to be wrong.

[Peyrol]

Italia is a pure southern country, in terms of geography, not south-west or south-east.

We are the "Gate of Europe" for great part of Maghreb and Mashreq (egypt and eastern Lybia).

[Hussar]

People here dividing regions by state borders are always going to be wrong.

.

The statement above, should be part of the title of this thread, imo.

[Hussar]

Italia is a pure southern country, in terms of geography, not south-west or south-east.



The peninsular part of Italy is, of course. Generically southern.

[Comte Arnau]

Taking into account ethnolinguistic (orange lines), religious/cultural (thick black lines), geographic (blue lines) and political/ideological (thin black lines) elements, the map of regional Europe could be more accurately represented like this:

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/8494/apwest2.jpg


For the sake of simplicity, and at a state level -with all the inaccuracies it implies-, the West/East map would go like this:

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/517/apwest3.jpg

Blue meaning West, Red meaning East, Purple meaning Both, Light Red meaning East with Extra-European elements.


Let me clarify again that this is at European level, not at world level, in which all the European countries, Western or Eastern, are to me part of The West.

[Arthur Scharrenhans]

Count Arnau's, Breedingvariety's and Hussar's maps, while not identical, are by far the best ones.

Here is my try at it; I do not claim it is a particularly well-researched work of scholarship...

8847

[Magister Eckhart]

Alright I decided to pull out my drawing board and put my old cartography skills to work. For your viewing pleasure:

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/2526/europem.png

[The Ripper]

For me, Western Europe = Western Christianity.

[Rouxinol]

Alright I decided to pull out my drawing board and put my old cartography skills to work. For your viewing pleasure

It is a good effort. I would although draw the blue of Western Europe till the westernmost point in Europe which is a bit further south at Cabo da Roca, Portugal.

[Hussar]

It is a good effort. I would although draw the blue of Western Europe till the westernmost point in Europe which is a bit further south at Cabo da Roca, Portugal.

And i would have extended the west-Europe toward north-west Italy, compressing the south euro belt in France (i don't think it's so extended to the centre of France).

[Svanhild]

I would although draw the blue of Western Europe till the westernmost point in Europe which is a bit further south at Cabo da Roca, Portugal.
You keep repeating false statements over and over again. The westernmost point of Europe is at the western coast of Iceland, Bjargtangar, at 65°30′N 24°32′W.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjargtangar

Your Cabo da Roca is just the westernmost point on the mainland. Or do you consider the European country of Iceland as unimportant debris?

[alzo zero]

I don't understand why are people fighting about it. Does being a "western" European somehow automatically increases your chances to be bailed out in case of bankruptcy by the EU, or get you a salary increase, or enlarge your penis?

[Peasant]

Southerners want to be westerners like us Brits, because we are pretty much the best. :cool:

[alzo zero]

Southerners want to be westerners like us Brits, because we are pretty much the best. :cool:
It doesn't look like it's ALL Southerners. :)

[Lábaru]

You keep repeating false statements over and over again. The westernmost point of Europe is at the western coast of Iceland, Bjargtangar, at 65°30′N 24°32′W.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjargtangar

Your Cabo da Roca is just the westernmost point on the mainland. Or do you consider the European country of Iceland as unimportant debris?

if we take in the list remote islands away from the continent like Europe, then the Azores win.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azores


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Locator_map_of_Azores_in_EU.svg/240px-Locator_map_of_Azores_in_EU.svg.png

[Hussar]

I don't understand why are people fighting about it. Does being a "western" European somehow automatically increases your chances to be bailed out in case of bankruptcy by the EU, or increases your salary, or enlarge your penis?


It's just to re-estabilish the objective reality of the things. I'm not going to comment the statements of iberian memebers of this forum, but i can speak without problem about the regions where i lived for most of my life (north-western sector of Italy).
To include it inside the southern Europe, would mean to compare it to reas like Sardinia or Sicily or Neaples ; it hasn't any sense frankly, under many points of view (cultural historical, climatically, genetically).
Places like Piedmont and Lombardy (especially the first) have much more in common with central-southern France, that is west-europe by any standard.
Of course not western in the sense of atlantic, but for sure a west continental one.

[Rouxinol]

You keep repeating false statements over and over again. The westernmost point of Europe is at the western coast of Iceland, Bjargtangar, at 65°30′N 24°32′W.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjargtangar

Your Cabo da Roca is just the westernmost point on the mainland. Or do you consider Iceland as unimportant debris?

Well, I won't reply to your uneducated provocation on Iceland. Your lack of education is just unbearable and you should manage to get one, but maybe it's just too late for that because I mean the education one gets at home through parenthood. You clearly lack one and I pity that.

Anyway, it is mainland Europe westernmost point and as such it serves the purpose of the point I was making in relation to that map.

The absolute westernmost point of Europe, anyway, would be somewhere in the Azores islands, which are part of Portugal.


if we take in the list remote islands away from the continent like Europe, then the Azores win.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azores


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Locator_map_of_Azores_in_EU.svg/240px-Locator_map_of_Azores_in_EU.svg.png


Exactly my point.

[alzo zero]

It's just to re-estabilish the objective reality of the things. I'm not going to comment the statements of iberian memebers of this forum, but i can speak without problem about the regions where i lived for most of my life (north-western sector of Italy).
To include it inside the southern Europe, would mean to compare it to reas like Sardinia or Sicily or Neaples ; it hasn't any sense frankly, under many points of view (cultural historical, climatically, genetically).
Places like Piedmont and Lombardy (especially the first) have much more in common with central-southern France, that is west-europe by any standard.
Of course not western in the sense of atlantic, but for sure a west continental one.
Maybe it's just me who don't think it's important. However, if I considered it an important issue, I would admit that you do make valid points. But then, what do you do of Veneto? Do you really feel closer to a Frenchman than to a Veneto? I, as a Lombard, don't. It's complicated, perhaps the solution would be to include also Southern France in Southern Europe?

[Barreldriver]

I was brought up under the impression that Western Europe implies bordering with the Atlantic (British Isle's, France, Iberian Peninsula) and being within a relatively close proximity of countries that border the Atlantic (Northwestern Low Countries, Western Germany, Switzerland).

[Hussar]

Maybe it's just me who don't think it's important. However, if I considered it an important issue, I would admit that you do make valid points. But then, what do you do of Veneto? Do you really feel closer to a Frenchman than to a Veneto? I, as a Lombard, don't. It's complicated, perhaps the solution would be to include also Southern France in Southern Europe?


You haven't seen my map. North-eastern Italy is included in central-Europe (mittel europe or at least perypheric part of it). Lombardy is divided between these two tendencies : The west part (Milan) toward Piedmont. The eastern part with Veneto and mittel Europe.


http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/48a784a3a0.gif (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

[Ibericus]

This is Western Europe, and it's cultural sharing during history :

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8761/bronzeq.png

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8518/neolith.png

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/9638/neolith2.png

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2618/bronze2.png

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/8435/latebronze.png

[alzo zero]

You haven't seen my map. North-eastern Italy is included in central-Europe (mittel europe or at least perypheric part of it). Lombardy is divided between these two tendencies : The west part (Milan) toward Piedmont. The eastern part with Veneto and mittel Europe.
I had not seen your map, sorry. Thank you for re-posting it. I must admit it is hard for me to accept the view that I am a Mitteleuropean while someone from Novara is a Western European, I understand that lines have to be drawn somewhere and I respect your point of view but I don't fully agree. When I was a very little child I was taught that the "West" was a vertical line running north and south at the Slovenian border and the "South" a line running east and west through the Alps, but maybe I have a simplistic view.

[Hussar]

When I was a very little child I was taught that the "West" was a vertical line running north and south at the Slovenian border and the "South" a line running east and west through the Alps, but maybe I have a simplistic view.


It's just a residual of very traditional/artificial points of view.

1) the east/west border with Slovenia is a residual of cold war.

2) the north-south border on the alps is residual of the patriotic rethoric of Reign of Italy in the era of italian unification (1848-1870). Nationalist geographer tried to mark as much as possible a division between Italy and the bordering realities. 100 yrs before the thing were muc lesser clear and distinct.

[alzo zero]

It's just a residual of very traditional/artificial points of view.

1) the east/west border with Slovenia is a residual of cold war.

2) the north-south border on the alps is residual of the patriotic rethoric of Reign of Italy in the era of italian unification (1848-1870). Nationalist geographer tried to mark as much as possible a division between Italy and the bordering realities. 100 yrs before the thing were muc lesser clear and distinct.
I agree, but with regard to your point 2 I must say that the north-south border isn't too far off from being correct at least in the central part of the Alps, where the line dividing Lombardia and the Lombard speaking cantons of Switzerland from Central Europe (at least what I consider Central Europe) follows an actual ethno-cultural divide.

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

It's acceptable. The gap between the Balkans and the Russias is wider than between Portugal and Ireland, so to say. In most of aspects.

You can easily mistake an english woman like Kate Middleton for a Portuguese. You can not mistake Putin for a Croatian or Greek.

lol

Putin doesn't look Greek!

[Nurzat]

this is EUʁOPA

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1647/europebestmap.jpg

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

http://www.europeanunionmaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/alcohol-belts-of-europe-map.PNG


Legend:
Blue – Vodka
Red – Wine
Mustard – Beer

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

This is Western Europe, and it's cultural sharing during history :


You forget always the period that goes from 711 until 1492

[Ibericus]

Only 50% or more R1b are Western EUro :)

http://robertlindsay.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/r1b-dna-distribution.jpg

[Nurzat]

^ wine is not popular at all in romania except the north-east (Moldova region in Romania. beer and spirits are WAY more popular)

[Lábaru]

You forget always the period that goes from 711 until 1492

:) Do not worry, there's always a nigger retard that quickly remind that period.

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

http://www.mapsofworld.com/europe-country-groupings/western-europe-map.jpg

http://www.addictedtotravel.com/Resources/Images/2008/6/708c3d8cec2b4f4c9792e906e12fc7c5.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Western_Europe_map.svg/680px-Western_Europe_map.svg.png

http://www.activegps.co.uk/accessories-spares/navman-accessories/navman-n40i/navman-n40i-maps-western-europe-dvd.jpg

http://jspivey.wikispaces.com/file/view/Europe_west.gif/85504217/Europe_west.gif

[ikki]

western europe:
Germany, france, benelux

southern europe:
italy, poortugal, spain, greece

Central europe:
austria, hungary, swiss, poland, chzecks & slovaks

Balkans:
assorted balkanoids

Nordic:
The nordics

East:
russia, romania, bulgaria, ukraine, byello,

Baltic:
The balts

Britain stands alone
Ireland is a odd one, maybe british isles..

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

this one for me is the best, because considers Finlandia which is culturally related with the other countries of Scandinavia and not with Russia and slavic countries

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Western_Europe_map.svg/680px-Western_Europe_map.svg.png

[Hussar]

this is EUʁOPA

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1647/europebestmap.jpg


I like it. It's creative at least.

Many members here, on the opposite, still can't conceive definitions of north/south/west/east not involving the political borders.

[Sturmgewehr]

All of the above plus the British Isles + Iceland maybe.

[antonio]

Scandinavia makes part of WesternEuropa? I doubt it, just by watching the map. Although, obviously, it makes part of Occidental block, but that's an economical and political, but never historical, concept. For me it's also necessary (as was said before) to have a certain level of Celtic background.

Ps. Clearly WesternEuropean areas: Iberia, France, Belgium, British islands...

[Sikeliot]

For me it's also necessary (as was said before) to have a certain level of Celtic background.

Agree.
British Isles, Iberia, France, Belgium, are to me definitely Western Europe and not up for debate.

[Murphy]

Forget it all. This is all that matters:

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/8007/264ire.jpg

[Magister Eckhart]

I like it. It's creative at least.

Many members here, on the opposite, still can't conceive definitions of north/south/west/east not involving the political borders.

This is a problem I, too, observed. I think it's important to recognise that entire swathes of a country can be in a different region than other areas: southern France, for example, has little in common with Northern France culturally. Likewise, the Highlands and the Lowlands in Scotland can hardly be part of the same cultural and geographic region. Romania itself is split between Central Europe and Eastern Europe, between Wallachia and Transylvania. I would actually venture that you could split Belgium as well, putting Flanders with Holland in Central Europe and Wallonia in Western. While I didn't, it could be argued.

The modern borders are important but I don't think they can be regarded as the final borders.

[Hussar]

This is a problem I, too, observed. I think it's important to recognise that entire swathes of a country can be in a different region than other areas: southern France, for example, has little in common with Northern France culturally. Likewise, the Highlands and the Lowlands in Scotland can hardly be part of the same cultural and geographic region. Romania itself is split between Central Europe and Eastern Europe, between Wallachia and Transylvania. I would actually venture that you could split Belgium as well, putting Flanders with Holland in Central Europe and Wallonia in Western. While I didn't, it could be argued.
The modern borders are important but I don't think they can be regarded as the final borders.


I fear most of people feel not comfortable to split a nation in different parts, belonging to different areas. Especially when it's their own nation.

Common peoples need simple demarcations, easy to understand. So it's easier for them to use the political borders.

[Magister Eckhart]

I fear most of people feel not comfortable to split a nation in different parts, belonging to different areas. Especially when it's their own nation.

Common peoples need simple demarcations, easy to understand. So it's easier for them to use the political borders.

It's hard to dileneate cultures these days anyway what with all the immigrants and coloured people crawling all over Europe. Berlin and Paris might as well be Turkish and Algerian cities at this point. People are going to have to realise that nations no longer really exist in Europe except in the minority; Europeans may still be the majority overall, but in localised areas, there are plenty of places where native Europeans are in a distinct minority.

I used to be heavily Eurosceptic, and I still oppose the leftist EU, but more and more I am starting to see the wisdom of applying Benjamin Franklin to the European situation: "We must all hang together or, indeed, we shall certainly all hang separately."

At any rate, I think that most of Europe today is really culturally Western (liberal) Europe. Austria and Hungary are the only place where Central Europe still exists, and I have to wonder if there is any Northern Europe left at all.

[antonio]

I fear most of people feel not comfortable to split a nation in different parts, belonging to different areas. Especially when it's their own nation.

Common peoples need simple demarcations, easy to understand. So it's easier for them to use the political borders.

Indeed, but with the generalization of education, people begin to know the dissapointed reality of,for example, being more related with frontiered foreigners (maybe near historical enemies) rather than with remote peoples of their own country. That will become a great problem for current European states.

[Lahtari]

I still can't understand the amount of obsession that are surrounding this topic of dividing Europe in the incredible world of teh Internets. :D

Face it: there's just two (2) objective criteria to divide Europe. 1) Religion. 2) Language. Everything else is just mixed up. And you can't get anything conclusive out of these two either.

Basically the whole Europe is a big set of gradients, with only a few steep borders between some countries (which are either willing or not willing to acknowledge them). So objectively dividing it to macro-regions like these is kind of impossible. It only leads to a confusion and a fight who is who's friend/relative. I've been watching this going on for years now, so I really don't feel like contributing.. Sorry. :D

[Comte Arnau]

Let's face the truth. Romans and Greeks had their mind in both borders of the Mediterranean. Western Europe is the product of Charlemagne.

http://www.mshamilton.com/images/Europe_800AD.jpg

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/5830/apwest4.jpg

[Jnovais]

I consider Portugal and Spain a part of Western Europe :)

[The Ripper]

Face it: there's just two (2) objective criteria to divide Europe. 1) Religion. 2) Language. Everything else is just mixed up. And you can't get anything conclusive out of these two either.

Actually, I think there are 3 objective, often used, criteria: Religion (Cultural), Geographic, and former Eastern Bloc (political).

[Svanhild]

western europe:
Germany, france, benelux

Central europe:
austria, hungary, swiss, poland, chzecks & slovaks


Placing Germany and Austria into two different European parts makes no sense. The German-speaking block, Germany-Austria-Switzerland, is either a part of Western Europe or a part of Central Europe. But no division between the three is reasonable.

http://de.srichinmoycentre.org/files/de/zentren/deutschland-oesterreich-schweiz.gif

[Mordid]

When I think of Western European, I think of Celtic and Iberian country.

[Hussar]

I agree with the memebers who mentioned the Frankish empire.


If we want to offer a version of western Europe based on history......



http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/a6e4c3ecc9.gif (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)


http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/b6bc1d915a.png (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

[Magister Eckhart]

Placing Germany and Austria into two different European parts makes no sense. The German-speaking block, Germany-Austria-Switzerland, is either a part of Western Europe or a part of Central Europe. But no division between the three is reasonable.

http://de.srichinmoycentre.org/files/de/zentren/deutschland-oesterreich-schweiz.gif

I don't think this is necessarily true today. Indeed, throughout German history there has been a pretty visible cultural difference between North and South that has far from died away, as proven by the Bavarian separatist movements. The remnants of the old conflict between Berlin and Vienna are still around.

I myself would put Austria and Germany in Central Europe, but I don't think it's absurd to separate the two either - honestly, I don't see any reason why Germany itself couldn't be split between two different sectors, considering the long-standing cultural differences of Capitalist/Calvinist Rhineland, Romanist Bavaria-Salzburg-Austria, and Lutheran Saxony. One cannot ignore the great cultural differences that had to be overcome, and in reality were simply ignored, in the unification process.

I don't think Switzerland necessarily should be lumped with either, though. Switzerland is too culturally diverse to be put into any single category as a whole: the west is Western, the south-east is Southern, and the north is Central, really.

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/4798/laarabia.png

[The Lawspeaker]

Western Europe. It all depends on whether you want to look at it geographically, politically/economically or culturally. My definition of course was shaped during the aftermath of the Cold War so it could potentially be flawed. But in my definition the member-states of the EEC are Western Europe (including Iceland, the Faroer, Switzerland and Austria). During the 1980s Eastern Germany would not have been considered a part of Western Europe but Germany is a Western European country.

Culturally Western Europe would be France, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Austria, Germany, Luxembourg, Belgium, the Netherlands, Great Britain and Ireland and to an extent Denmark. The Norwegians, Swedes, Faroese, Icelanders and Finns would be Northern Europe but culturally still closely connected to Western Europe so in a sense they could be seen as Western Europe.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Western Europe. It all depends on whether you want to look at it geographically, politically/economically or culturally. My definition of course was shaped during the aftermath of the Cold War so it could potentially be flawed. But in my definition the member-states of the EEC are Western Europe (including Iceland, the Faroer, Switzerland and Austria). During the 1980s Eastern Germany would not have been considered a part of Western Europe but Germany is a Western European country.

Culturally Western Europe would be France, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Austria, Germany, Luxembourg, Belgium, the Netherlands, Great Britain and Ireland and to an extent Denmark. The Norwegians, Swedes, Faroese, Icelanders and Finns would be Northern Europe but culturally still closely connected to Western Europe so in a sense they could be seen as Western Europe.


The West originated in Greece and therefore any claimants must Hellenise (or Romanise, since Italy is the other half of the West :coffee:) oneself or be a pretender.

[Zephyr]

Placing Germany and Austria into two different European parts makes no sense. The German-speaking block, Germany-Austria-Switzerland, is either a part of Western Europe or a part of Central Europe. But no division between the three is reasonable.

http://de.srichinmoycentre.org/files/de/zentren/deutschland-oesterreich-schweiz.gif

As a foreigner, I think you are speaking more of a standard german sprachraum, which was a bit imposed by Prussia. The divide between West/North/South was always strong before Prussianism took the lead.

Austria seems to me the head of Central Europe. Upon the baltic shores I think of Germany as Northern Europe and "lump" it with Scandinavia. Thinking of Franconia, westernity comes immediately to my mind.

So this thing of Western Europe is quite vague, unless you are speaking in a very broad sense, again, the "West" as perceived from the cold-war on.

Truth is there are several vectors which superimpose in almost everynation. In Portugal, West and South overlap 50-50. Pure West and East, for example, I can only think of Ireland and Russia respectively.

Italy is a complicated case: at North almost every vectors of Europe overlap. There's a bit of West, North, Central, South and even Eastern influence, if you consider the strength Ambrosianism had in their religious culture.

[Odoacer]

Another possibility, just for consideration - Western Europe in red (excluding the parts in North Africa, of course):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Theodosius_I%27s_empire.png

This would be the fullest extent of the Western Roman Empire.

[Foxy]

I don't understand why are people fighting about it. Does being a "western" European somehow automatically increases your chances to be bailed out in case of bankruptcy by the EU, or get you a salary increase, or enlarge your penis?


Southerners want to be westerners like us Brits, because we are pretty much the best. :cool:


It doesn't look like it's ALL Southerners. :)

Sincerly the whole question for me worths less than nothing.
I am EASTERN ITALIAN, the rest is fog. :D

[Albion]

The West originated in Greece and therefore any claimants must Hellenise (or Romanise, since Italy is the other half of the West :coffee:) oneself or be a pretender.

Technically Greece is East and Western Civilization is an offshoot of the Pan-European Greco-Roman Civilization. Another offshoot happened in the East but I don't think there's much in it, its mostly based around religion and alphabets.

[Svanhild]

I don't think this is necessarily true today. Indeed, throughout German history there has been a pretty visible cultural difference between North and South that has far from died away, as proven by the Bavarian separatist movements. The remnants of the old conflict between Berlin and Vienna are still around.
Pardon my french Eckhart, but it always bothers me when non-Germans want to lecture Germans on matters of inter-German coherence and cooperation. As an offspring of Germans of almost all parts of Germany (mainly Northern German, though) and as someone who lives for 22 years in Germany by now I have to object and disagree. The regional differences aren't that large. There's a mutual common identity and the Bavarian separatist movement gains less than 1,5% at federal state elections. A lot of Germans have a rather strong regional sense but the superior platform is the nation. Religious differences between the Protestant north and the Catholic south play no role any longer. Northern Germans drink Pils beer, Southern Germans drink wheat beer. Whatever! As a matter of fact, Austrians are Germans or Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg were no part of Germany as Austria and Bavaria are of the same tribe and the same goes for the Swiss Germans and the Baden-Württembergers.


I myself would put Austria and Germany in Central Europe, but I don't think it's absurd to separate the two either - honestly, I don't see any reason why Germany itself couldn't be split between two different sectors, considering the long-standing cultural differences of Capitalist/Calvinist Rhineland, Romanist Bavaria-Salzburg-Austria, and Lutheran Saxony.
I'm afraid that you overplay the cultural differences. Again, as someone who actually lives in Germany and visits Austria rather regularly I have to object. hence I'd presume to have more knowledge and experience with matters connected to Germany/Austria/Switzerland.

I don't think Switzerland necessarily should be lumped with either, though. Switzerland is too culturally diverse to be put into any single category as a whole: the west is Western, the south-east is Southern, and the north is Central, really.
2/3 of Switzerland are Swiss-German speaking and culturally/ethnically strongly connected to the Alemani tribe who represents the state of Baden-Württemberg. If you want to split Switzerland to apportion it to differen European regions, do it at the language and tribe broder. Tessin to Italy, hence South European, and Romandie to France, hence Western European.

[Arthur Scharrenhans]

Italy is a complicated case: at North almost every vectors of Europe overlap.

As in my map! :)
So, I'm not the only one to get such an impression.

(Some further reflections on this particular issue: I feel that the marginal areas of N. Italy are easier to classify as they can be assigned to the neighbouring zones: so, the Northwest (Piedmont, Val d'Aosta) to Western Europe, the Northeast, especially the Alps, to Central Europe, Liguria to Southern Europe, owing to its Mediterranean character. But I'm not sure where the Po plain - the core of N. Italy - fits. It does have its distinct character. But I is it Southern, Western, Central, or what?)

[Hussar]

Pardon my french Eckhart, but it always bothers me when non-Germans want to lecture Germans on matters of inter-German coherence and cooperation.
[/QUOTE]


Pardon my frankness ("french"....) , but actually you DO it very often about other countries and populations, placing them where you want (west, south, east...) according just to your will (without any kind of argumentation of your thesis).

For example, about SWIRZERLAND, the italian part is part of Lombardy, so of nord-western part of Italy. Quite continental and not mediterranean at all. So would be part of western Europe as much as the french Switzerland.

Just this statement reveals your cultural stereotypes.

[Falkata]

The atlantic ocean is 100 meters away from my parents home so if i´m not a western I dont really know what I am :confused:

[alzo zero]

But I'm not sure where the Po plain - the core of N. Italy - fits. It does have its distinct character.
Call us what you like, we are "l'ombelico d'Europa". ;)

[Arthur Scharrenhans]

Call us what you like, we are "l'ombelico d'Europa". ;)

yeah, I like it! :thumb001:

[Raikaswinþs]

Western Europe for Me: France, Iberia, Italy and the Benelux (the core of the Western Roman Empire) . I would also Include Britain , and Ireland , and posibly Swizterland as an "observer member".

Germany and Austria are definitely not Western Europe. They are Germanic Europe or Central Europe. For me Western Europe is essentially romance or at least has a very important Roman influx.

[Svanhild]

For example, about SWIRZERLAND, the italian part is part of Lombardy, so of nord-western part of Italy. Quite continental and not mediterranean at all.
Are you kidding me? Only one single canton of Switzerland, Tessin/Ticiano, is Italian-speaking. And it's mediterranean by climate as its at the southern side of the Alpes.

http://www.patrick-kaufhold.de/assets/images/sard2004_tessin4.jpg

http://www.essen-und-trinken.de/food/images/topthemen/internationale-kueche/schweizer-kueche/tessin.jpg

http://www.reisimpressies.eu/afbeeldingen/zwitserland/Zwits_lugano_gandria.jpg

These are just a few photos of Tessin who prove that Tessin is strongly Romance/mediterranean influenced, hence I count it as part of Southern Europe in the same fashion as Lombardei and the lower regions of Aosta. You seem to have a distorted image of the EUropean climate zones. Lombardei is not Western European.

So would be part of western Europe as much as the french Switzerland.
Romandie is as Western European as possible, it's culturally French and Western European by climate. In opposition to Tessin.

[Murphy]

You know it is possible for over-lap? Spain is in southern Europe.. but it's western European.

[alzo zero]

Are you kidding me? Only one single canton of Switzerland, Tessin/Ticiano, is Italian-speaking. And it's mediterranean by climate as its at the southern side of the Alpes.

http://www.patrick-kaufhold.de/assets/images/sard2004_tessin4.jpg

http://www.essen-und-trinken.de/food/images/topthemen/internationale-kueche/schweizer-kueche/tessin.jpg

http://www.reisimpressies.eu/afbeeldingen/zwitserland/Zwits_lugano_gandria.jpg

These are just a few photos of Tessin who prove that Tessin is strongly Romance/mediterranean influenced, hence I count it as part of Southern Europe in the same fashion as Lombardei and the lower regions of Aosta. You seem to have a distorted image of the EUropean climate zones. Lombardei is not Western European.

Romandie is as Western European as possible, it's culturally French and Western European by climate. In opposition to Tessin.
You seem to be quite ignorant. By the shores of big lakes like lake Como and lake Garda the climate is always noticeably milder than in the surrounding areas. Even Bologna, Modena, Piacenza and more in general the Emilian plain in winter is much colder than Como or Desenzano. Everyone over 10 of age knows it.

The Po Valley has a continental climate with very hot summers and very cold winters, in fact I would venture to say that winter in Brescia is colder than winter in London or than in the rainy but relatively warm (in winter) Atlantic coast for that matter.

By the way, obviously palm trees are not indigenous to the area. They were brought there to make the lake shore look more "exotic" and Mediterranean-like. I bet you have a few of those in Germany too, probably in the south.

[Falkata]

By the way, obviously palm trees are not indigenous to the area. They were brought there to make the lake shore look more "exotic" and Mediterranean-like. I bet you have a few of those in Germany too, probably in the south.

I remember she posted palm trees too when talking about Santander (a typical northern spanish city) trying to show us how strongly mediterranean the city is :eek:

I´ve a bonsai at my appartment too. Tora Tora Tora!

[Ibericus]

Are you kidding me? Only one single canton of Switzerland, Tessin/Ticiano, is Italian-speaking. And it's mediterranean by climate as its at the southern side of the Alpes.

http://www.patrick-kaufhold.de/assets/images/sard2004_tessin4.jpg

http://www.essen-und-trinken.de/food/images/topthemen/internationale-kueche/schweizer-kueche/tessin.jpg

http://www.reisimpressies.eu/afbeeldingen/zwitserland/Zwits_lugano_gandria.jpg

These are just a few photos of Tessin who prove that Tessin is strongly Romance/mediterranean influenced, hence I count it as part of Southern Europe in the same fashion as Lombardei and the lower regions of Aosta. You seem to have a distorted image of the EUropean climate zones. Lombardei is not Western European.

Romandie is as Western European as possible, it's culturally French and Western European by climate. In opposition to Tessin.
You seem to be obsessed with palm trees. This is Germany :

http://freethumbs.dreamstime.com/123/big/free_1238071.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2750/4467348999_e7bcba165a.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/205/481405900_c8f277a538.jpg

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1792/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1792-109342.jpg

[Ouistreham]

Most Italians (and many a Spaniard) on that board cannot stand being categorized as Southerners, Mediterraneans, Latins etc. This is funny.

Large parts of Northern Italy have indeed just the same weather conditions as Serbia, that doesn't make them Slavic, Central- or Eastern-European for all that. "Padania", including Ticino, is Latin and Mediterranean as hell in terms of civilization.

The fault line between Northern and Southern Europe is somewhat blurred in France, but if someone tells me that it actually runs along the road from Calais to Brussels and Liège, I wouldn't feel offended. Cause there's a bit of truth in it after all.

[Foxy]

Are you kidding me? Only one single canton of Switzerland, Tessin/Ticiano, is Italian-speaking. And it's mediterranean by climate as its at the southern side of the Alpes.

http://www.patrick-kaufhold.de/assets/images/sard2004_tessin4.jpg

http://www.essen-und-trinken.de/food/images/topthemen/internationale-kueche/schweizer-kueche/tessin.jpg

http://www.reisimpressies.eu/afbeeldingen/zwitserland/Zwits_lugano_gandria.jpg

These are just a few photos of Tessin who prove that Tessin is strongly Romance/mediterranean influenced, hence I count it as part of Southern Europe in the same fashion as Lombardei and the lower regions of Aosta. You seem to have a distorted image of the EUropean climate zones. Lombardei is not Western European.
Romandie is as Western European as possible, it's culturally French and Western European by climate. In opposition to Tessin.

It's Ticino not Ticiano and I have serious doubts that it has a mediterranean climate. Are you mad or what??? I have been many times in Ticino, ahahaha! You are ridicolous.

http://www.travelmarketing.it/web/images/stories/canton_ticino_gita.jpg

VERY... VERY MEDITERRANEAN! :thumb001:

Third, neither the whole Italy is mediterranean.
A good map of the Italian CLIMATES:

http://www.guidavacanzeitalia.it/image/zone_climatiche.gif

BLUE: ALPINE
PURPLE: PADANIAN
SAND YELLOW: ADRIATIC
GREEN: APPENNINIC
BROWN: TYRRENIC
ORANGE: your beloved MEDITERRANEAN

Characterists of the listed climates:

ALPINE: long and very cold winters, with many snows. Fresh and short summers. Much rain in spring and autumn.
PADANIAN: shorter winters but cold and wet. Summers are muggy. Frequent rains in spring and autumn.
TYRRENIC: hot but windy summers and warm winters. Many rains in spring and autumn.
ADRIATIC: cold winters but not too long, warm summers not too much muggy. Little rains both in autumn and spring.
APPENNINIC: cold winters, fresh summers, many rains in autumn.
MEDITERRANEAN: very long and hot summers, warm winters that permit to bath in the sea until mid October. Rains are frequent only in winter.

Study a bit next time.

[Foxy]

Most Italians (and many a Spaniard) on that board cannot stand being categorized as Southerners, Mediterraneans, Latins etc. This is funny.



Southerns yes. Latins yes. Mediterranean= it depends.
But if someone tells me that there is a difference in the climate between the German part of Switzerland and the Italian one I classify her as a mad, becouse there are not barriers among the various cantons of Switzerland, that, as a whole, is an Alpine country.

In the case of Italy, we have 6 climatic zones and to every zone corresponds a different landscape (this is something that a person who has travelled the whole Italy knows very well):

Tyrrenic landscape (Tuscany):

http://turismo.leoblog.it/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/campagna.jpg

Appenninic (Abruzzo):

http://www.bellevacanze.it/tourism/contenuti/ABRUZZO2(1).jpg

Mediterranean (Sardinia):

http://vacanzelibere.it/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/sardegna3.jpg

Alpine (Veneto):

http://www.agendaonline.it/photo/dolomiti2.jpg

Padanian (Emilia)

http://www.comune.jesi.an.it/conti/alunni/2009/QUARTA/ITALIAF/PIANURE/padana.jpg

[Ibericus]

Most Italians (and many a Spaniard) on that board cannot stand being categorized as Southerners, Mediterraneans, Latins etc. This is funny.

Large parts of Northern Italy have indeed just the same weather conditions as Serbia, that doesn't make them Slavic, Central- or Eastern-European for all that. "Padania", including Ticino, is Latin and Mediterranean as hell in terms of civilization.

The fault line between Northern and Southern Europe is somewhat blurred in France, but if someone tells me that it actually runs along the road from Calais to Brussels and Liège, I wouldn't feel offended. Cause there's a bit of truth in it.

http://images-mediawiki-sites.thefullwiki.org/11/6/7/0/3498193201219035.jpg
It's about accuracy. Actually Southern Germany is closer to the mediterranean sea than some parts of Iberia. Posting pics of palm trees is not a prove of anything, I've posted pics of palm trees in Germany also. It's not true that all southern Europe is mediterranean climate, the north of Spain has Atlantic climate, and the Pyrenees is mountainous climate, the north of Italy has Alpine, etc.

[Comte Arnau]

Update in inaccuracies.

Switzerland is originally Alemannic, Arpitan and Rheto-Padanian. Not German, French and Italian, which are superimposed.

Palm trees are not Euro-Mediterranean. Olive trees are.

The border between Northern and Southern is not that blurry. It changes the moment the next village starts to cook with butter instead of oil. :D

[alzo zero]

Large parts of Northern Italy have indeed just the same weather conditions as Serbia, that doesn't make them Slavic, Central- or Eastern-European for all that. "Padania", including Ticino, is Latin and Mediterranean as hell in terms of civilization.
Too bad Svanhild was talking in terms of weather/temperature, not in terms of "civilization".

French will be French...

Anyway I have no problem at all if people call Northern Italy Southern Europe, Central Europe, Western Europe, etc. because it's a bit of them all. Culturally it's Latin, definitely. So I really don't know what "Italians" you are referring to.

[alzo zero]

Switzerland is originally Alemannic, Arpitan and Rheto-Padanian. Not German, French and Italian, which are superimposed.
Sorry Conte, I don't understand exactly what's your point. Canton Ticino is as Lombard as Lombardia, the same people and the same language (or dialect, call it what you prefer). If Lombardia can be called Italian in terms of ethnicity/culture so should Canton Ticino, I think.

[Comte Arnau]

Sorry Conte, I don't understand exactly what's your point. Canton Ticino is as Lombard as Lombardia, the same people and the same language (or dialect, call it what you prefer). If Lombardia can be called Italian in terms of ethnicity/culture so should Canton Ticino, I think.

Where am I denying this? Ticinese is part of Lombard, which is part of the Rheto-Padanian linguistic system, encompassing most Romance languages in Switzerland and northern Italy.

[Foxy]

Update in inaccuracies.

Switzerland is originally Alemannic, Arpitan and Rheto-Padanian. Not German, French and Italian, which are superimposed.

Palm trees are not Euro-Mediterranean. Olive trees are.

The border between Northern and Southern is not that blurry. It changes the moment the next village starts to cook with butter instead of oil. :D

Actually olive trees is neither all that diffuse. In my region the most common plant is the vineyard. ;) Olive trees are more southern Italian.

[Ouistreham]

It's not true that all southern Europe is mediterranean climate, the north of Spain has Atlantic climate, and the Pyrenees is mountainous climate, the north of Italy has Alpine, etc.

— This is quite right. But the German (Swiss, Austrian) moutains are extensions of a Central/Northern European domain, while those in the South are extensions of the Mediterranean area. Which makes a very big difference.

Let me put it another way. I think the most significitant map is the one showing the floristic regions of Europe. Because the choice of plants, vegetables and agricultural resources locally available has enormous anthropological effects. This factor conditions to a large extent popular culture, cuisine, agricultural practices, vernacular architecture, the way the fields are enclosed, inheritance customs, the patterns of relationship between cities and countryside, etc.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Floristic_regions_in_Europe_%28english%29.png

Look, the Central European domain covers exactly the Sauerkraut Belt!

[alzo zero]

The border between Northern and Southern is not that blurry. It changes the moment the next village starts to cook with butter instead of oil. :D
Most of Northern Italy (save for Liguria maybe) cooks with butter instead of oil, so it isn't always very good method. ;)

[alzo zero]

Where am I denying this? Ticinese is part of Lombard, which is part of the Rheto-Padanian linguistic system, encompassing most Romance languages in Switzerland and northern Italy.
Only to say that Italian isn't more superimposed there than it is in the rest of Northern Italy. Or anywhere else in Italy for that matter, since modern Italian is an artificial language dating to 19th century.

[Hussar]

Are you kidding me? Only one single canton of Switzerland, Tessin/Ticiano, is Italian-speaking. And it's mediterranean by climate as its at the southern side of the Alpes.
These are just a few photos of Tessin who prove that Tessin is strongly Romance/mediterranean influenced, hence I count it as part of Southern Europe in the same fashion as Lombardei and the lower regions of Aosta. You seem to have a distorted image of the EUropean climate zones. Lombardei is not Western European.



......???


You show pics with PALMS to prove what ??


Then i could show a couple of pics of VENETO (let me do that since you did) :

It's the north-eastern region of Italy :



http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/24c1f10f60.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/7b82bc41fd.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/d49a129ece.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)


............so, according to your own logic, dear Svanhild (the logic of countryside photos), Then VENETO is part of Central Europe within Austria and Germany.






Romandie is as Western European as possible, it's culturally French and Western European by climate. In opposition to Tessin.


If "Romandie" is "western European", then Valee D'Aote is too. And if Valèè d'Aote is west-European.....then Piedmont too (north-western Italy).

[Comte Arnau]

Actually olive trees is neither all that diffuse. In my region the most common plant is the vineyard. ;) Olive trees are more southern Italian.

Then you're not total Meds. :tongue

Vineyards are the other one, yes. We've got both here. ;)


Most of Northern Italy (save for Liguria maybe) cooks with butter instead of oil, so it isn't always very good method. ;)

Then Liguria is Southern and the rest is Northern. :tongue


Only to say that Italian isn't more superimposed there than it is in the rest of Northern Italy. Or anywhere else in Italy for that matter, since modern Italian is an artificial language dating to 19th century.

Because it is indeed superimposed in Northern Italy.

As for the artificiality, no, the standard is clearly a Central variety, based on educated Tuscan.

[Albion]

Switzerland is originally Alemannic, Arpitan and Rheto-Padanian. Not German, French and Italian, which are superimposed.

I don't get it. I know German Switzerland was Alemannic but North Germany was Saxon, they're just old German tribes, what difference does it make?
Have the Swiss Germans developed a separate ethnicity from the Austrians and Germans proper, are they only German -speaking or are they actually what they appear to be to outside observers - a weird variation of the actual Germans?
So Swiss + German + Austrian Germans are all just variants of one German people living in multiple countries or are they different peoples with a common language?

And why is Switzerland never mentioned in anschluss? I know it was originally to annex Austria but why was Switzerland not included, simply because its neutral or because its not seen as German?

[Hussar]

The fault line between Northern and Southern Europe is somewhat blurred in France, but if someone tells me that it actually runs along the road from Calais to Brussels and Liège, I wouldn't feel offended. Cause there's a bit of truth in it after all.


Well it depends on the criteria : if you choose a cultural/linguistic one, then FRANCE is a latin country at 100%.

But , keep in mind, at this point we aren't saying "south euro" or "north euro".

Besides, "latin" per sè doesn't mean necessarily "mediterranean". Otherwise, francophone QUEBEC would be a mediterranean civilisation.

[alzo zero]

Because it is indeed superimposed in Northern Italy.

As for the artificiality, no, the standard is clearly a Central variety, based on educated Tuscan.
We agree it is.

As for the standard Italian it is artificial. It derives from Central Italian Tuscan but it is apparently different, in fact in no part of Italy the native language/dialect coincides or has ever coincided with standard Italian.

[Hussar]

Then Liguria is Southern and the rest is Northern. :tongue




Liguria is a transitional region of southern Europe ; north of it it's western Europe (the part bordering with France).

[Peyrol]

Only to say that Italian isn't more superimposed there than it is in the rest of Northern Italy. Or anywhere else in Italy for that matter, since modern Italian is an artificial language dating to 19th century.

This is a very big lie, but this isn't the right thread to discuss this.

[alzo zero]

This is a very big lie, but this isn't the right thread to discuss this.
To be a "lie" it must have been deliberate and I promise that it wasn't. Please show me why I was inaccurate (but not dishonest).

[Peyrol]

To be a "lie" it must have been deliberate and I promise that it wasn't. Please show me why I was inaccurate (but not dishonest).

I took a dozen courses and had many other examinations about the history of the Italian language, I know what I mean.

I can tell you all the phylologic history, but would be very boring...however, italian letterary language was fo centuries the language of art, culture and science (Dante, Da Vinci, Galileo, Tommaso d'Aquino, etc etc),and also of the diplomacy between the italian states.

Was also a language of the opera and of the love (why, for example, "Le nozze di figaro" is written in a perfect italian, if in these decades the language never exists?)


Anyway, firs example of the italian language is the "indovinello di Verona", VIII century A.D.

"Se pareva boves
alba pratalia arava
albo versorio teneva
negro semen seminava"

[Ouistreham]

"Modern Italian is an artificial language dating to 19th century."
"— This is a very big lie, but this isn't the right thread to discuss this."

— This is not a lie, but somewhat inaccurate.

As a matter of fact Italian was the first language in Europe to be offered a standardised literary variety, as soon as the 14th century.

But it's also true that Italian was still in the early 19th century in the same situation as French in the early 17th or German in the early 18th century: a medium only an elite of scholars, teachers, doctors, lawyers, bishops and priests (not all of them though) scattered all over the country were able to enjoy a perfect command of.

Thus, Italian is both Europe's oldest and youngest big culture language.

[alzo zero]

I took a dozen courses and had many other examinations about the history of the Italian language, I know what I mean.

I can tell you all the phylologic history, but would be very boring...however, italian letterary language was fo centuries the language of art, culture and science (Dante, Da Vinci, Galileo, Tommaso d'Aquino, etc etc),and also of the diplomacy between the italian states.

Was also a language of the opera and of the love (why, for example, "Le nozze di figaro" is written in a perfect italian, if in these decades the language never exists?)


Anyway, firs example of the italian language is the "indovinello di Verona", VIII century A.D.

"Se pareva boves
alba pratalia arava
albo versorio teneva
negro semen seminava"
Ok. How's all this related with the fact that modern standard Italian is an artificial language that doesn't match any local language or dialect ever spoken by the people of any part of Italy until the late 19th century? Sorry but I'd like to know since I was called out for spreading a "lie".

[Peyrol]

Ok. How's all this related with the fact that modern standard Italian is an artificial language? Sorry but I'd like to know since I was called out for spreading "lies".

Is not artificial, is a dialect becomed a national language.

Like all the western european national languages.;)

[alzo zero]

Is not artificial, is a dialect becomed a national language.
Where were they speaking this dialect?

By the way, how do they know that the "Indovinello di Verona" would later evolve into Italian? Can't it be proto-Veronese "dialect"?

[The Lawspeaker]

I have seen palm trees in gardens in Southern England, there are some subtropical gardens in Southern Ireland. There is even a Palm Beach in Fredrikshavn, Denmark. Pardon my French, but posting pictures of palm trees and claiming that it is "Southern" is a bit of a joke. These palms only spend their summers out in the open but as soon as autumn starts they are brought indoors again. And the same goes for the palms lining the boulevards of Lugano or Locarno in Ticino.

A lot of those that can stand the winter are the more winterhard Washingtonia filifera or other more hardy palms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardy_palms) that have been imported like the Trachycarpus fortunei.

[Peyrol]

Where were they speaking this dialect?

By the way, how do they know that the "Indovinello di Verona" would later evolve into Italian? Can't it be proto-Veronese "dialect"?

Toscana, of course.



Oh man, I don't say these things, but philologists and linguists. :laugh:

Submit a petition to the Accademia della Crusca, if you care so much about this.

[alzo zero]

I have seen palm trees in gardens in Southern England, there are some subtropical gardens in Southern Ireland. There is even a Palm Beach in Fredrikshavn, Denmark. Pardon my French, but posting pictures of palm trees and claiming that it is "Southern" is a bit of a joke. These palms only spend their summers out in the open but as soon as autumn starts they are brought indoors again. And the same goes for the palms lining the boulevards of Lugano or Locarno in Ticino.
I've seen palm trees covered with plastic covers, but some palm trees can resist rigid temperatures. According to this site (http://www.trafioriepiante.it/infogardening/giardino/Palme.htm) (in Italian) some can survive in Northern Italy at temperatures under -10C°! However they still suggest it's better to cover them.

[The Lawspeaker]

Exactly. We are probably speaking about the Trachycarpus fortunei or windmill palm then.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Snow_on_Trachycarpus_fortunei.JPG

Ah: Dutch wikipedia (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trachycarpus)gives it all away:

De meest bekende soort is Trachycarpus fortunei, die zeer algemeen is aangeplant in Zuid-Zwitserland, Noord-Italië, Zuid-Frankrijk en Noord-Spanje: het zijn niet-invasieve planten, die zich uitsluitend kunnen vermeerderen door zaadvorming.


Only the stuff that matters:

The most well-known species is the Trachycarpus fortunei that is often planted in Southern Switzerland, Northern Italy, Southern France and Northern Spain...

[alzo zero]

Toscana, of course.
You know as well as I do that Tuscan differs from standard Italian although standard Italian derives from it (and they are very similar too), as I've said. The standard Italian that I (a Lombard) would speak with you (a Piemontese) would be easily distinguishable from the dialect spoken by Tuscans. Not only for the accent, sound, etc. but also with regards to the use of many different words and even for the form of the sentences.

[Rouxinol]

Showing palm trees to prove that a climte zone is Mediterranean is the most ignorant, shallow minded thing I've ever come in a long time. :lol: You people still waste your time lecturing geography? :lol:

Berlin:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Erster_Spreestrand.JPG/800px-Erster_Spreestrand.JPG

Ignorance is bliss.

[Raikaswinþs]

for Ouistreham, Svanhild and the other "Lumbreras" of this board, a few basic notions of human geography and climatology which can be easily extracted from textbooks for 5th graders.

Iberia and Italy are not exclusively mediterranean regions.

Talkin about Iberian weather, the largest portion of it (the 2 mesetas) have a continentalized weather, closer to that of the central balcans than to any pure mediterranean region. Large portions of Spain are covered by mountains and experience highland and alpine weather. In fact no other country in Europe except Swizterland has a larger portion of its terrain covered by mountains. Spain is, as a fact, the most Mountainous of the main European countries, and the second in absolute terms. Now tell me sweeheart why do you think there ain't hordes of Brits and germs in Atlantic Spain? why no such an aberration as Marbella , Torremolinos or Ibiza exists in the Cantabric Sea (Biscay Gulf )?? It looks that the Holiday Tour Operators know better geography and climate than you!!

Second fact: Mediterranean climate is a too broad generalization.In the climate scale there are further divisions with considerable differences. The Mediterranean Climate of Girona , Genova or Venice is quite different from that of Seville, Palermo or Athens.

I know, this is hard to understand for some of you, but it is still a fact.


Most notoriously , palm trees aren't an Euro Mediterranean feature. They were imported by our middle eastern and North African friends. They are spread through most Europe this days, but posting a picture of a truly alpine landscape with a palm tree doesn't make it look "mediterranean" (you can't imagine how much we laughed at that here) . The palm tree looks nothing but exotic in that picture, and the idea of mediterreanize swizterland by posting pictures of alpine landscapes with palm trees is nothing but retarded. (but again, we didn't expect anything better coming from certain minds, did we??)


Next but not last, in the sequence of retarded ideas here, is that if you have a mediterranean landscape at home you're not western european. In fact Western Euorpe is primary a geographical term, and there's nothing more western in Europe than Iberia, with all its Mediterranean, Highland, Continental, Semi Arid and Atlantic Oceanic landscapes and its imported palm trees. What about some Sesame Street for "what's east- what's west" . HEY LOOK AT THAT, THE SOUTH WEST IS ALSO WEST!!! JUST LIKE THE NORTH WEST!! WOWW CAN YOU BELIEVE IT????

Finally, if we talk about Western Europe in a historical, human-geography perspective, the WEST, Western Europe, is nothing but the territories that the were civ
ilized "a la romaine" by Julious Caesar (yeah, ok I know, he surely was an Aryan like every other great figure in history like Ramses, Monctezuma, Hernan Cortez and, according to good auld Adolf, Gengis Khan himself) and his pals over the centuries, and the nations that would evolve in history in that area (the western roman empire)

There's nothing wrong with being Mediterranean. All the opposite, it is a blessing. A privilege for which nations have fought over milennia in Europe.

[Peasant]

http://i.imgur.com/fMSPY.jpg

Has this discussion of the climate of the Iberian peninsula happened before or is it just me?

[Lábaru]

Guys, look:


http://www.worldrestaurantsp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/neu-hong-kong-china-restaurant-berlin-1.jpg

is a Chinese restaurant in Berlin, proves that Germany is not central Europe.

[antonio]

http://i.imgur.com/fMSPY.jpg

At Iberia, that climatical map is a total crap. My greatfather fought at Nationalist side on Civil War at Teruel (Aragonese province limiting Valencia) and he had to bear temperatures of almost minus 20 Celsius degrees. Go figure what would think British retirees about this Mediterranean climate. :cool:

So majority of Spain has Continental or Central climate.

[alzo zero]

At Iberia, that climatical map is totally crap. My greatfather fought at Nationalist side on Civil War at Teruel (Aragonese province limiting Valencia) and he had to bear temperatures of almost minus 20 Celsius degrees. Go figure what would think about British retirees this Mediterranean climate. :cool:

So majority of Spain has Continental or Central climate.
I seem to gather that that map is a prediction of what will be like in the next years due to "climate change". Anyway, as Ojancanu pointed out there are different kinds of Mediterranean weather (like there are different kinds of continental, atlantic, etc.).

[antonio]

I seem to gather that that map is a prediction of what will be like in the next years due to "climate change".

I dont think so. Its about descripting climate change variations on current climatological areas...just by watching Galician area having yet Atlantic climate. Galicia and all Cantabric coast climate is already in a process of Mediterranization.

Moreover, at a Med climate, termometer very rarely go below zero, so Teruel winter minims are totally out of sort.

[Peasant]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/ClimateMap_World.png

This any better? And climate temperatures are not exactly set in stone, that would be impossible.

[alzo zero]

I dont think so. Its about descripting climate change variations on current climatological areas...just by watching Galician area having yet Atlantic climate. Galicia and all Cantabric coast climate is already in a process of Mediterranization.
I've been to inland Iberia and it's very dry, near Madrid it looks almost desertic and not as cold as the other areas marked as continental. I may be wrong but I'm under the impression that the map is illustrating (as you can read in the top left) how it can turn into in case of climate change.


Moreover, at a Med climate, termometer very rarely go below zero, so Teruel winter minims are totally out of sort.
Half of the Appennines are colored as Mediterranean too and they normally go at -20C° every year in Abruzzo for example during winter (and minimum daily temperatures normally go under 0C° in inland central and even southern Italy too). So there's another reason why it may be a map "predicting" the future.

[Foxy]

Only to say that Italian isn't more superimposed there than it is in the rest of Northern Italy. Or anywhere else in Italy for that matter, since modern Italian is an artificial language dating to 19th century.

It hurts to hear that from an Italian. Written Italian exists since 1200. It was a sort of koinè.

Politically Western Europe is this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Western_Europe_map.png/250px-Western_Europe_map.png

geographically:

http://spazioinwind.libero.it/educazione/fraim/sx/mx/angolo/geo/europa/europa.jpg

[Rouxinol]

At a macroscale (Europe or worldwide) Iberia is often characterized as being a pred. Mediterranean in climate, which is true for the most part. Yet, that's not accurate if we zoom in. There are sub-types of Mediterranean and there are microclimate zones also.

This is the Köppen climate classification of Iberia, made by the Portuguese national meteorological institute - Instituto de Meteorologia.

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/8516/semttulo2p.jpg

Regarding only the three main climate zones, they are as follow:

- Dark-green is Oceanic climate
- Light-green is Warm-summer Mediterranean climate (a milder Mediterranean climate, closer to the Oceanic climate)
- Light-yellow is Hot-summer Mediterranean climate (the "typical" or standard Mediterranen climate)

This is another, more in-depth map:

http://www.upf.edu/materials/fhuma/portal_geos/spain/t3/img_grans_t3/011.jpg

And these are the average temperatures in January and July, respectively:

http://www.upf.edu/materials/fhuma/portal_geos/spain/t3/img_grans_t3/009.jpg http://www.upf.edu/materials/fhuma/portal_geos/spain/t3/img_grans_t3/010.jpg

[alzo zero]

It hurts to hear that from an Italian. Written Italian exists since 1200. It was a sort of koinè.
I don't want to hurt anyone but I doubt that there was anyone speaking Italian in Brescia in 1200 or even in 1700. I think it is a fact, don't see it as an attack to the Italian state to which I have no hostility.

[Ibericus]

I've been to inland Iberia and it's very dry, near Madrid it looks almost desertic and not as cold as the other areas marked as continental.
lol, Madrid not cold ? The average temperature in winter is 5-6 degrees which is the same as in London.

[alzo zero]

lol, Madrid not cold ? The average temperature in winter is 5-6 degrees which is the same as in London.
Not as cold as the areas marked as continental, I've said. Even a Spanish co-worker of mine used to tell me that she missed Madrid's weather come on, it's not like I'm saying anything offensive. And it's also true that Madrid's low in January is colder than London, I know.

[Rouxinol]

alzo zero, when have you been to Madrid? Madrid is quite cold in the winter (quite colder than Lisbon because here we have the influence of the ocean and the very important as long as climate in Europe is concerned Gulf stream which heightens the temperature). In the summer Madrid tends to get on average hotter and drier because it's inland.

[alzo zero]

Madrid is quite cold in the winter (quite colder than Lisbon because here we have the influence of the Ocean and the Gulf stream which heightens the temperature). In the summer Madrid tends to get on average hotter and drier because it's inland.
Perhaps it's my fault for not being clear, but have I said anything that is in contradiction with this?

[Rouxinol]

Perhaps it's my fault for not being clear, but have I said anything that is in contradiction with this?

No, don't get it wrong. You just didn't mention the season, it's quite different. ;)

[antonio]

Not as cold as the areas marked as continental, I've said. Even a Spanish co-worker of mine used to tell me that she missed Madrid's weather come on, it's not like I'm saying anything offensive. And it's also true that Madrid's low in January is colder than London, I know.

Indeed Madrid winter is way better than Galician one, and a paradise comparing it with London, but that's nothing to do with Temperature but with Winds, Rains and Foggs.

[Foxy]

I don't want to hurt anyone but I doubt that there was anyone speaking Italian in Brescia in 1200 or even in 1700. I think it is a fact, don't see it as an attack to the Italian state to which I have no hostility.

Italian existed as a written language, as I said. But the vulgus ( the people) used to speak dialect. Educated people knew Italian otherwise it would be impossible to have our wonderful licterature, which is for the most Italian with some local influx connected to the place of origin of the auctor. Manzoni uses a lot of francesisms, while the auctors of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies uses more neapolitanisms or hispanisms. ;)

[Falkata]

I´m currently living in Madrid and the weather is quite extreme and dry. Not only because the city is very far from the sea but because its 700m above the sea level. In summer this city is hot as hell (around 35º-40ºduring the day) and all the locals move to the coast and in winter is quite cold for a southern european city. At nights the temperature is usually below 0º

[alzo zero]

Indeed Madrid winter is way better than Galician one, and a paradise comparing it with London, but that's nothing to do with Temperature but with Winds, Rains and Foggs.
No she was talking about temperature. Winter tends to be colder in Brescia than in Madrid which, I thought, was a known fact. I went in early March in Madrid and I was walking around in t-shirt during the day, I could hardly do that in Brescia.

[Foxy]

lol, Madrid not cold ? The average temperature in winter is 5-6 degrees which is the same as in London.

This is warm for me, not cold. The avarage winter temperature in L'Aquila is -2°C in Jenuary, 0,2 in December, in Milan is just a -1.7 in Jenuary and O.O in December. The coldest city of Italy, Bozen, has -4,1 in January and Sondrio -3,5.
This is on avarage becouse the truth is different. In L'Aquila every night temperatures arrive around -12°.
The hottest city is Palermo with 7,5°. Madrid is climatically closer to the hottest city of Italy rather than to the coldest one.
London is pretty warm becouse of the sea currents which not arrive on the Alps and on the Appennine for exemple (I have never heard that London is a cold city).

[Falkata]

No she was talking about temperature. Winter tends to be colder in Brescia than in Madrid which, I thought, was a known fact. I went in early March in Madrid and I was walking around in t-shirt during the day, I could hardly do that in Brescia.

March in Madrid can be anything. I remember one year snowing and the following one with t-shirt and shorts. Spring is basically unexistant in this city

[alzo zero]

March in Madrid can be anything. I remember one year snowing and the following one with t-shirt and shorts. Spring is basically unexistant in this city
I agree, it's a very peculiar weather.


London is pretty warm becouse of the sea currents which not arrive on the Alps and on the Appennine for exemple (I have never heard that London is a cold city).
The Gulf Stream...

[antonio]

I agree, it's a very peculiar weather.


The Gulf Stream...

That's the point. March in Madrid has no much of winter at all. Anycae you can not go out in shirt at higher Avila town at late September. I swear it.:D

[alzo zero]

That's the point. March in Madrid has no much of winter at all.
Ok but that's not how it works in continental weather, at least not in the areas marked as "continental" in that map.

[Foxy]

The Atlantic climate is very rainy but not cold, especially becouse in Europe we are achieved by the Gulf Stream (thanks Alzo Zero).
Eastern Europe is on avarage colder becouse they don't receive this current. Indeed the North-East is the coldest point of Europe and the South West the hottest.

http://www.tourisminitaly.info/public/news/clima-sicilia.jpg

The satellitar pictures of Europe are also clear:

http://www.sqtradiometeo.it/images/previ%20capitali%20eu/CARTA%20FISICA%20EUROPA_SQT.jpg

The eternal snows are only in Norwey, Iceland and on the Alps, the hottest points are Spain, Sardinia and Sicily.

Now, what's western Europe? Becouse ...

http://datbase.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/like-where-this-thread-is-going_jpg.jpg

[Winterwolf]

Maybe the topic title is misleading. Does the op understand “Western Europe” in a political, historical or geographical sense?

From a historical point of view Western Europe consists out of all countries which were west of the Iron Curtain. The term is very much related to the east-west conflict during cold war.

http://www.fumema.de/fumema/funkmess/01_geschichte-frame/main-data/250px-EiserneVorhang.png

From a geographical point of view Western Europe is France, Belgium, the Netherlands, the UK and Ireland.

Personally I'm alright with this map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Grossgliederung_Europas.png

[Ibericus]

This is warm for me, not cold. The avarage winter temperature in L'Aquila is -2°C in Jenuary, 0,2 in December, in Milan is just a -1.7 in Jenuary and O.O in December. The coldest city of Italy, Bozen, has -4,1 in January and Sondrio -3,5.
This is on avarage becouse the truth is different. In L'Aquila every night temperatures arrive around -12°.
The hottest city is Palermo with 7,5°. Madrid is climatically closer to the hottest city of Italy rather than to the coldest one.
London is pretty warm becouse of the sea currents which not arrive on the Alps and on the Appennine for exemple (I have never heard that London is a cold city).
I don't know why you take it as a competition of Spain vs Italy. Obviosly Spain has colder cities than Madrid, for example cities like Segovia can reach easily temperatures of -14 C in December.

[Foxy]

Personally I'm alright with this map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Grossgliederung_Europas.png

Yes, I do too. Corsica with Italy.

[Ibericus]

The eternal snows are only in Norwey, Iceland and on the Alps, the hottest points are Spain, Sardinia and Sicily.

Wrong. There is not snow in Sicily, apart from the high mountains, while in Spain every winter it snows in half the country ,see this snowfall map :

http://www.snow-forecast.com/images/mail_37.gif

[alzo zero]

I don't know why you take it as a competition of Spain vs Italy. Obviosly Spain has colder cities than Madrid, for example cities like Segovia can reach easily temperatures of -14 C in December.
Please don't take it as a competition, as far as I'm concerned I was just commenting why, in my opinion, a map that was brought up by another poster had to be read in a certain manner while antonio had a different opinion, that's it. Now I'm finishing this here because it's taken a bad turn, I hope I didn't piss anyone off.

[alzo zero]

http://www.snow-forecast.com/images/mail_37.gif
LOL WTF no snow in Northern Italy and in Eastern Europe?

Oh sorry now I get it... Is that the weather forecast for a single series of 3 days? What is it supposed to mean? :confused:

[Foxy]

I don't know why you take it as a competition of Spain vs Italy. Obviosly Spain has colder cities than Madrid, for example cities like Segovia can reach easily temperatures of -14 C in December.

What is special in it? In L'Aquila we have at least a -21° par year. I am not taking it as a competition. Nor Italy nor Spain are entirely mediterranean. Italy is also alpinid/appenninic and continental, Spain is also atlantic.
According to Koeppen the mediterranean climate reaches these zones:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/KoppenclassificationworldmapCs.png/800px-KoppenclassificationworldmapCs.png

Basically the only region of Europe that is fully mediterranean is Portugal.

If you are able to read Italian:


[modifica] DistribuzioneIn Europa, è tipico delle regioni che si affacciano sul mar Mediterraneo: il centro-sud della Spagna, la costa mediterranea della Francia, della penisola balcanica e della Crimea. In Italia lo si ritrova soprattutto sulle coste liguri e tirreniche (escludendo gran parte dell'entroterra). Mentre sulle coste adriatiche della costa occidentale non risale più a nord del Conero, sulla costa orientale risale molto più a nord, comprendendo la Dalmazia e (parte dell'Istria). Zone tipicamente mediterranee sono inoltre l'Italia meridionale, la Sicilia e la Sardegna, ad eccezione delle zone di alta montagna.

Anche climi paragonabili in zone situate in altri continenti vengono considerati come esempi di clima mediterraneo: per esempio, nel bacino del Mediterraneo lo si ritrova anche nelle coste turche e del Vicino Oriente. In Africa si trova un clima mediterraneo sulle coste del Maghreb e nella regione del Capo; nelle Americhe hanno un clima paragonabile la California costiera e il Cile centrale e in Australia la costa sudoccidentale. In sintesi, si tratta di zone climatiche situate poco più a nord o poco più a sud dei Tropici, e vicine a mari e oceani, che rendono il clima piuttosto mite. È questa la ragione per cui il clima mediterraneo viene talvolta considerato subtropicale, come per esempio da Troll e Paffen.

[Foxy]

LOL WTF no snow in Northern Italy and in Eastern Europe?

Oh sorry... Is that the weather forecast for a single series of 3 days? What is it supposed to mean? :confused:

In Abruzzo when TG says "Winds from Siberia/Bora/ Tramontana/winds from the Balkans are coming" we know that it is going to arrive snow or coldness. Scirocco and Libeccio (winds from South and West) = heit. Now if we want to change the metereology....

[askra]

This is warm for me, not cold. The avarage winter temperature in L'Aquila is -2°C in Jenuary, 0,2 in December, in Milan is just a -1.7 in Jenuary and O.O in December. The coldest city of Italy, Bozen, has -4,1 in January and Sondrio -3,5.

these are the average low temperatures in winter, not the total average temperatures in winter. well in L' Aquila average winter temperature should be +3,2°C, in january the average is +2,1 °C



Showing palm trees to prove that a climte zone is Mediterranean is the most ignorant, shallow minded thing I've ever come in a long time. :lol: You people still waste your time lecturing geography? :lol

this is the only endemic palm that grows naturally in the mediterranean climate, the Chamaerops humilis,
it's a dwarf palm, a little shrub:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Chamaerops_humilis01.jpg

[Ibericus]

Basically the only region of Europe that is fully mediterranean is Portugal.

Actually Portugal is the least mediterranean country of southern Europe.

[antonio]

Actually Portugal is the least mediterranean country of southern Europe.

Northern Portugal and Southern Portugal are quite a distinct areas. Southern is an epitome of WesternMediterranean country.

[Rouxinol]

The northwest coast of Portugal is more Oceanic/Atlantic in climate, as well as the most rainy year round. The northeast is more continental-like. The more "standard Mediterranean" zones (hot summers, mild winters) is inland from the Tejo (Tagus river) down, that is, Alentejo and Algarve. All the territory is Mediterranean for the most part, one should not forget though that the Mediterranean climate has different sub-climates (more atlantic, more continental, etc.). In the winter months the northeast is the only region to get its dose of snow (cities like Covilhã, Vila Real, Guarda e Bragança, that is, Beira Alta, Alto Douro e Trás-os-Montes regions).

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7vD0-1DYgBk/TWPrQlaUOYI/AAAAAAAABvY/MTYTC-On0xU/s640/koppen_pt_cont_vrs1_2.jpg

[Ibericus]

What is special in it? In L'Aquila we have at least a -21° par year. I am not taking it as a competition. Nor Italy nor Spain are entirely mediterranean.
The average winter temperature of L'Aquila is 2.5º in january