Genetically, should Malta be considered part of the Sicilian population?

[Sikeliot]

Yes or no?

All of my Sicilian GEDmatch IDs from Agrigento and Caltanissetta have far more cousin matches with Maltese than they do with other southern Italians and even other Sicilians, which means that the Maltese are a recent offshoot of the Sicilian population.

If you take someone from Agrigento and run them through GEDmatch's One to Many, all their top matches are Maltese.

[FinalFlash]

Yes. Piccola Sicilia.

[Sikeliot]

Yes. Piccola Sicilia.

What I have yet to see is what people from Pantelleria, Lampedusa, etc. are like (the small islands between Sicily and Malta). Pantelleria spoke a dialect of Maltese until fairly recently also. I can't imagine they'd be any different.

[Joso]

Yes or no?

All of my Sicilian GEDmatch IDs from Agrigento and Caltanissetta have far more cousin matches with Maltese than they do with other southern Italians and even other Sicilians, which means that the Maltese are a recent offshoot of the Sicilian population.

If you take someone from Agrigento and run them through GEDmatch's One to Many, all their top matches are Maltese.

Interesting, i don't know much about Malta but i think you are right since Malta is a small island on the Mediterranean and the only thing that is close to it is Scicily, so it makes sense based on all these things mentioned that most of Maltese are mediterranids on phenotype and similar to Scilians in genetics

[FinalFlash]

What I have yet to see is what people from Pantelleria, Lampedusa, etc. are like (the small islands between Sicily and Malta). Pantelleria spoke a dialect of Maltese until fairly recently also. I can't imagine they'd be any different.

If Maltese are an extension of Sicily or even vice versa(you could in fact be Maltese) then I imagine the islands between them would be identical.

I want your honest answer: at what point does Italy start to seem foreign to you? North? Central? Sardegna? Napoli?

And also at what point are Sicilians viewed as terrone and non Italiano?

[FinalFlash]

If Maltese are an extension of Sicily or even vice versa(you could in fact be Maltese) then I imagine the islands between them would be identical.

I want your honest answer: at what point does Italy start to seem foreign to you? North? Central? Sardegna? Napoli?

And also at what point are Sicilians viewed as terrone and non Italiano?

PS. I think Malta has heavy overlap with Cyprus too

[Sikeliot]

Interesting, i don't know much about Malta but i think you are right since Malta is a small island on the Mediterranean and it the only thing that is close to it is Scicily, so it makes sense based on all these things mentioned that most of Maltese are are mediterranids on phenotype and similar to Scilians in genetics

23andme has a Maltese category considered a subset of their Italian category. Some Sicilians come up as Maltese rather than Italian on that.

[Sikeliot]

If Maltese are an extension of Sicily or even vice versa(you could in fact be Maltese) then I imagine the islands between them would be identical.

I want your honest answer: at what point does Italy start to seem foreign to you? North? Central? Sardegna? Napoli?

And also at what point are Sicilians viewed as terrone and non Italiano?

I am American but if you mean moving north in Italy when do I think it distinctly feels not like the far south, probably in the northern parts of Campania and Abruzzo is when it begins feeling more like central Italy.

Provincial identities in Italy are not as strong as they used to be, but I would say northern Italians in general do not have favorable views of the south likely for economic reasons.

[Mingle]

Genetically, yes.

Are there cultural differences between Siclians and Maltese people?

[FinalFlash]

I am American but if you mean moving north in Italy when do I think it distinctly feels not like the far south, probably in the northern parts of Campania and Abruzzo.

Provincial identities in Italy are not as strong as they used to be, but I would say northern Italians in general do not have favorable views of the south likely for economic reasons.

In other words nobody from the north is going to gaze at you and say "vafanculo negro merda" as if you're some Moroccan.

[StonyArabia]

No the Maltese had their own ethnogenesis even if they are very close to Sicilians genetically. Plus their language was originally dialect of Arabic before it morphed into Maltese.

[FinalFlash]

No the Maltese had their own ethnogenesis even if they are very close to Sicilians genetically. Plus their language was originally dialect of Arabic before it morphed into Maltese.

Can they be considered Arabs?

[Sikeliot]

Genetically, yes.

Are there cultural differences between Siclians and Maltese people?

Linguistically, yes. Otherwise no, not really, except for British influences.


No the Maltese had their own ethnogenesis even if they are very close to Sicilians genetically. Plus their language was originally dialect of Arabic before it morphed into Maltese.

Their language is a dialect of Arabic that originated in Sicily, from Tunisian Arabic.

[StonyArabia]

Can they be considered Arabs?

No they are to different religiously and culturally. Its really up to them if they want to, but I see them as very distant "relatives"

[Joso]

23andme has a Maltese category considered a subset of their Italian category. Some Sicilians come up as Maltese rather than Italian on that.

Like Scicily, are there many east meds in Malta too? If so, then they are indeed very similar

[FinalFlash]

They call their language "siculo-arabic". I guess at one point they would have been considered Arabs given that they spoke Arabic.

[Sikeliot]

Like Scicily, are there many east meds in Malta too? If yes, they are indeed very similar

They look Sicilian but not in a Greek-like way... they look like people from the west of the island more or less which is where they came from.

[Sikeliot]

Like Scicily, are there many east meds in Malta too? If yes, they are indeed very similar

They look Sicilian but not in a Greek-like way... they look like people from the west of the island more or less which is where they came from.

[Sikeliot]

They call their language "siculo-arabic". I guess at one point they would have been considered Arabs given that they spoke Arabic.

I think calling it a separate language from Arabic is inaccurate. Additionally, Siculo-Arabic had another descendant, which was spoken in Pantelleria but died out in the 1900s. See the town names in Pantelleria, they look similar to in Malta. (Panetelleria is considered part of Sicily still).

"Bukkuram" "Bugeber" "Rekhale" all look like town names from Malta.

http://www.pantelleria.com/images/cartinapanteleria.jpg

[Mingle]

I think calling it a separate language from Arabic is inaccurate. Additionally, Siculo-Arabic had another descendant, which was spoken in Pantelleria but died out in the 1900s. See the town names in Pantelleria, they look similar to in Malta. (Panetelleria is considered part of Sicily still).

I would say that Maltese is separate from Arabic in the same way that Standard Italian is separate from Latin. Standard Italian is derived from a dialect of Vulgar Latin, but its considered a distinct language from Latin due to the low level of mutual intelligibility between Latin and Italian. Similarly, Maltese is derived from a regional dialect of Classical Arabic, but its low level of mutual intelligibility makes it a different language. In short, its "Arabish", but not proper Arabic.

Although the same could technically be said for some Arabic dialects like Tunisian (closest dialect to Maltese), so its partly a question of politics. The reason why Maltese is usually considered a separate language from Arabic though is because Maltese has its own standardized register whereas other dialects descended from Classical Arabic are considered crude forms of Standard Arabic as opposed to given their own official status or standardization and the line has to be drawn somewhere. In a way, its not really wrong to call it Arabic, but its different enough from Standard Arabic to be called a separate language.

[Mingle]

They call their language "siculo-arabic". I guess at one point they would have been considered Arabs given that they spoke Arabic.

They don't call it that, that's the name given to the language that Maltese is descended from. Siculo-Arabic refers to the dialect cluster of Arabic that was spoken in Sicily.

[Sikeliot]

I would say that Maltese is separate from Arabic in the same way that Standard Italian is separate from Latin. Standard Italian is derived from a dialect of Vulgar Latin, but its considered a distinct language from Latin due to the low level of mutual intelligibility between Latin and Italian. Similarly, Maltese is derived from a regional dialect of Classical Arabic, but its low level of mutual intelligibility makes it a different language. In short, its "Arabish", but not proper Arabic.

Although the same could technically be said for some Arabic dialects like Tunisian (closest dialect to Maltese), so its partly a question of politics. The reason why Maltese is usually considered a separate language from Arabic though is because Maltese has its own standardized register whereas other dialects descended from Classical Arabic are considered crude forms of Standard Arabic as opposed to given their own official status or standardization and the line has to be drawn somewhere. In a way, its not really wrong to call it Arabic, but its different enough from Standard Arabic to be called a separate language.

Maltese is considered a separate language because they are Christian and identify more with Italy. I have seen some Lebanese try to say Lebanese Arabic isn't Arabic, and there was once a push to write it in the Latin alphabet, which actually made it look very similar to Maltese.

I've also seen some people say Moroccan Arabic is more divergent from the standard than Maltese is.

[Mingle]

@Sikeliot

Do you know around which time period western Sicilians mmigrated to Malta?

[FinalFlash]

They don't call it that, that's the name given to the language that Maltese is descended from. Siculo-Arabic refers to the dialect cluster of Arabic that was spoken in Sicily.

A famous linguist on YouTube said that is what its essentially called because of its heavy influences of both Arabic and Sicilian/Latin languages.

[Sikeliot]

@Sikeliot

Do you know around which time period western Sicilians mmigrated to Malta?

No, but it would have to be after modern surnames originated, because most of the common surnames in Malta (Vella, Farrugia, Camilleri and whatnot) all originated in, and still exist in Sicily.

[FinalFlash]

No, but it would have to be after modern surnames originated, because most of the common surnames in Malta (Vella, Farrugia, Camilleri and whatnot) all originated in, and still exist in Sicily.

Would you support Sicilian secession from Italy and possibly unite with Malta?

[Sikeliot]

Would you support Sicilian secession from Italy and possibly unite with Malta?

Malta should become part of Sicily, but in my ideal world, the language of Sicily would be Maltese, or at least, Sicily's town names would revert back to their original names. Meaning we'd call Palermo "Balarme" and Agrigento "Kerkent" like in Maltese.

[Mingle]

Maltese is considered a separate language because they are Christian and identify more with Italy. I have seen some Lebanese try to say Lebanese Arabic isn't Arabic, and there was once a push to write it in the Latin alphabet, which actually made it look very similar to Maltese.

I've also seen some people say Moroccan Arabic is more divergent from the standard than Maltese is.

Their Christianity is the reason why Maltese people are not considered ethnic Arab and has no bearing on linguistics. Its the standardization of their dialect that gives them the status of having a separate language. Its like how Turkish and Azeri are considered separate languages despite being mutually intelligible (I've read that South Azeri is actually closer Turkish than it is to North Azeri). If Moroccan or Lebanese Arabic were standardized tomorrow, then they'd be considered a separate language. At the moment, the different Arabic dialects (not including Maltese) are just considered localized crude forms so that's why they aren't considered a separate language. Alemannic isn't either officially considered a separate language from German since its not standardized. Some Germans and Swiss-Germans told me that Swiss-German can't be understood by someone that knows only Standard German yet its considered the same language.

[FinalFlash]

Malta should become part of Sicily, but in my ideal world, the language of Sicily would be Maltese, or at least, Sicily's town names would revert back to their original names. Meaning we'd call Palermo "Balarme" and Agrigento "Kerkent" like in Maltese.

I think that's plausible. You would have a case because both groups are highly related and have common linguistic roots to an extent. I'm assuming other than S. ITALIANs, the Maltese are your brothers.

[Mingle]

Malta should become part of Sicily, but in my ideal world, the language of Sicily would be Maltese, or at least, Sicily's town names would revert back to their original names. Meaning we'd call Palermo "Balarme" and Agrigento "Kerkent" like in Maltese.

Why not have Sicilian as the official language instead? Maybe have Standard Sicilian based off the dialect of Sicilian that is least similar to Standard Italian.

[Sikeliot]

I think that's plausible. You would have a case because both groups are highly related and have common linguistic roots to an extent. I'm assuming other than S. ITALIANs, the Maltese are your brothers.

My family is from Palermo and Messina which means I am more likely to share immediate ancestry with Calabrians rather than Maltese, but Sicilians from the southern coast are closer related to Maltese because they descend from there, and would share high IBD sharing, recent ancestry, surnames, etc.

[Sikeliot]

Why not have Sicilian as the official language instead? Maybe have Standard Sicilian based off the dialect of Sicilian that is least similar to Standard Italian.

Sicilian as a dialect is going to die out but my preference would be Maltese > Sicilian > Florentine in that order. Either way, Sicilians should not speak Florentine, they should be speaking either their own language or Maltese, at least both originated there to some extent.

[FinalFlash]

My family is from Palermo and Messina which means I am more likely to share immediate ancestry with Calabrians rather than Maltese, but Sicilians from the southern coast are closer related to Maltese because they descend from there, and would share high IBD sharing, recent ancestry, surnames, etc.

Well, how would Calabrians feel about this? Would they be on board with this or do they identify with standard Italians more?

[Sikeliot]

Well, how would Calabrians feel about this? Would they be on board with this or do they identify with standard Italians more?

No idea. But Calabria is very rural and the least developed region in Italy.

[Mingle]

Sicilian as a dialect is going to die out but my preference would be Maltese > Sicilian > Florentine in that order. Either way, Sicilians should not speak Florentine, they should be speaking either their own language or Maltese, at least both originated there to some extent.

Your views on Florentine seem reasonable. Why do you prefer Maltese to Sicilian though? Assume that Sicilian has no chance at dying out just for the sake of the question.

[Sikeliot]

Your views on Florentine seem reasonable. Why do you prefer Maltese to Sicilian though? Assume that Sicilian has no chance at dying out just for the sake of the question.

Because if it wasn't for the Norman conquest and the Crusades, Maltese (or its ancestor) was naturally positioned to be the vernacular of Sicily. The Normans intervention on the island prevented that from being the case. However, as I said I prefer Sicilian to Florentine.

[FinalFlash]

No idea. But Calabria is very rural and the least developed region in Italy.

What's your favorite region of Italy? Which has more to offer for a tourist?

[Sikeliot]

What's your favorite region of Italy? Which has more to offer for a tourist?

Anything southern. Though all of Italy is beautiful in its own way. Personally I think Campania is as interesting, historically, as Sicily, with Pompeii and whatnot.

[FinalFlash]

Anything southern. Though all of Italy is beautiful in its own way. Personally I think Campania is as interesting, historically, as Sicily, with Pompeii and whatnot.

How would Italians perceive Armenian tourists in their country? Are they knowledgeable about us? Greeks generally have a positive view in regards to us but I'd like your take.

[Sikeliot]

How would Italians perceive Armenian tourists in their country? Are they knowledgeable about us? Greeks generally have a positive view in regards to us but I'd like your take.

I do not know. I always said Greeks feel a connection to Armenia because of their mutual dislike of the Turks, their suffering under the Ottoman Empire, etc. But I would imagine Italians have fond feelings for Armenians, why would they not?

[Mingle]

Because if it wasn't for the Norman conquest and the Crusades, Maltese (or its ancestor) was naturally positioned to be the vernacular of Sicily. The Normans intervention on the island prevented that from being the case. However, as I said I prefer Sicilian to Florentine.

But one could say if it weren't for the Arab conquest, then Sicilian would have naturally become the language of Sicily. Though Malta is still just as much as Sicilian language as Maltese is. After all, Sicilian came from Lazio/Latium if we go back far enough.

But anyways, there's another question I've been meaning to ask for a while. Do you know why Sicily is so over-represented on GEDmatch and stuff? On GEDmatch, they often have multiple reference samples in the oracle. Kinda weird for such a small place. Sure, it has genetic diversity, but it can't be more genetically diverse than North Italy or some other places which only have a single sample. Also, the Lukasz report has Sicily divided into seven different regions (eight if you include Malta) based on genetic differences. Do you know why that is? Has Sicily just been studied much more by professionals than other regions of the world?

[FinalFlash]

I do not know. I always said Greeks feel a connection to Armenia because of their mutual dislike of the Turks, their suffering under the Ottoman Empire, etc. But I would imagine Italians have fond feelings for Armenians, why would they not?

I'd say some cultural similarities could play a role there too. But yeah I guess you're right.

[Sikeliot]

But one could say if it weren't for the Arab conquest, then Sicilian would have naturally become the language of Sicily. Though Malta is still just as much as Sicilian language as Maltese is. After all, Sicilian came from Lazio/Latium if we go back far enough.

Actually it wouldn't have, because the Sicilian language originated from Latin-speaking southern Italians settled in Sicily after Arab rule ended. Essentially, Arabic (which would become Maltese) replaced Greek, and then Italic dialects replaced Arabic. Sicilian language is related to the dialects in Calabria, Campania, etc. If not for Arab rule, Sicilians would be speaking Greek and would basically be another Crete (which is, also, genetically very similar to Sicily with minor differences).


But anyways, there's another question I've been meaning to ask for a while. Do you know why Sicily is so over-represented on GEDmatch and stuff? On GEDmatch, they often have multiple reference samples in the oracle. Kinda weird for such a small place. Sure, it has genetic diversity, but it can't be more genetically diverse than North Italy or some other places which only have a single sample. Also, the Lukasz report has Sicily divided into seven different regions (eight if you include Malta) based on genetic differences. Do you know why that is? Has Sicily just been studied much more by professionals than other regions of the world?

Because of my influence on these forums probably :lol:

On a genetic basis, there is diversity in Sicily. Post-Neolithic Levantine and Caucasian input is higher in Calabria, northeast Sicily, Palermo, and the inland and central regions, and comparatively weak in southeastern Sicily and the Adriatic coast (where the people are closer to mainland Greeks, oddly enough, or halfway between them and other southern Italians). The areas with more North African input, around 5-10% or so in my experience are the western third of Sicily and then Malta of course. Trapani is a weird case on the far west of the island because they have high post-Neolithic MENA input, but they also absorbed a lot more Norman and Italic ancestry in the last 1000 years than any other part of the island, so their overall genetic distance from the Levant is higher than it otherwise would be.

[Sikeliot]

I'd say some cultural similarities could play a role there too. But yeah I guess you're right.

Going back to the Sicily question, the interesting thing is that the region on the island with the most cultural influence from MENAs (meaning you feel like you could be in a heavily Europeanized version of Tunisia or Lebanon) is Trapani which on a genetic basis has been the most influenced by any demographic changes spurred by Norman rule. Isn't it odd how that turned out?

[FinalFlash]

Going back to the Sicily question, the interesting thing is that the region on the island with the most cultural influence from MENAs (meaning you feel like you could be in a heavily Europeanized version of Tunisia or Lebanon) is Trapani which on a genetic basis has been the most influenced by any demographic changes spurred by Norman rule. Isn't it odd how that turned out?

Honestly it's not surprising. Given the history of migration patterns and genetic continuity between the tail end of Europe and the north end of Europe's neighbors. That area has always been a bit blurry imo

[Sikeliot]

Honestly it's not surprising. Given the history of migration patterns and genetic continuity between the tail end of Europe and the north end of Europe's neighbors. That area has always been a bit blurry imo

It's just interesting that despite having the most Norman ancestry, the feeling of being near Tunisia is highest in Trapani on a cultural level.

Then again culturally the Greek islands feel much less like Turkey than do the northern parts of Greece and genetics definitely contradicts that too.

[RenaRyuguu]

Most def