How distant are modern Saxon Germans from Anglo-Saxon Englanders?

[Voyt]

(assuming it's even possible to determine pure Anglo-Saxon Englanders)

[Norb]

bump

[billErobreren]

Don't the dwellers of East Anglia and Licolnshire cluster near the Dutch and Low Saxons anyway? I guess that would depend on what you mean by German Saxon. A place like Anhalt's not rightly Saxon. :icon_confused:
I reckon many Thuringians and Pommeranians got soaked into the blend and their Ostfälisch dialect's not exactly a twin to Widukind's Old Saxon either.

[Norb]

modern Saxon Germans? where are they?

[Jana]

modern Saxon Germans? where are they?

In Lower Saxony. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Saxony

User Token is Saxon, check his DNA results.

[PaleoEuropean]

Modern Saxons don't exist inside Germany, they have been watered down by the Vikings and Franks.

[PaleoEuropean]

modern Saxon Germans? where are they?

Imaginary land

[Token]

Modern Saxons don't exist inside Germany, they have been watered down by the Vikings and Franks.

Nonsense.

[PaleoEuropean]

Nonsense.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY-Koa-cWeY

[Synapsid]

Modern English in East Anglia are 50-60% England_IA and 50-40% Anglo-Saxon. It get lower as you get closer to the welish border regions. But England_IA is mostly bell beaker which is closley releated to the Single Grave culture and Battle axe Cultures that Germanics are derived from, although Britions in the south were more gallic admixed than the Irish/picts/Geals.

[PaleoEuropean]

https://i.imgur.com/ShYWhK2.png

https://i.imgur.com/hvXCWe6.jpg

[Token]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY-Koa-cWeY

Show me those Norse and Frankish speaking Low Saxons. Maybe they found Saxon language cool and decided to abandon their languages in favour of Saxon all of a sudden?

[PaleoEuropean]

Show me those Norse and Frankish speaking Low Saxons. Maybe they found Saxon language cool and decided to abandon their languages in favour of Saxon all of a sudden?

Language means nothing, peasants don't speak court languages, Farmers didn't need to speak French, they were out in the mud doing work all day not rubbing elbow with their Frankish rulers.

[Jana]

Language means nothing, peasants don't speak court languages, Farmers didn't need to speak French, they were out in the mud doing work all day not rubbing elbow with their Frankish rulers.

You really speak much nonsense.

[PaleoEuropean]

You really speak much nonsense.

Lmao anyone who knows about history knows that the Franks conquered Saxony xD. The English and much of the Germans spoke French at court, even some of the Spaniards. Historical fact.

[Synapsid]

Modern English in East Anglia are 50-60% England_IA and 50-40% Anglo-Saxon. It get lower as you get closer to the welish border regions. But England_IA is mostly bell beaker which is closley releated to the Single Grave culture and Battle axe Cultures that Germanics are derived from, although Britions in the south were more gallic admixed than the Irish/picts/Geals.

Thus we can conclude that Saxons in Germany and the English are close, but you need north germanic input

[Token]

Language means nothing, peasants don't speak court languages, Farmers didn't need to speak French, they were out in the mud doing work all day not rubbing elbow with their Frankish rulers.

Yes, you said it all. The elite change, the peasants stay the same, and all present-day Low Saxons are descended from those Saxon-speaking peasants and not from the Carolingian elite. Plus, Vikings never settled in Lower Saxony. Are u still made about this Yamnaya map?

[Synapsid]

Language means nothing, peasants don't speak court languages, Farmers didn't need to speak French, they were out in the mud doing work all day not rubbing elbow with their Frankish rulers.

Franks in Charlemange spoke vernecular Frankish. Not French, which did'nt exist then. Only Gallo Roman peseants and Frankish elites spoke vulgar latin

[PaleoEuropean]

https://i.imgur.com/7gsC5g5.jpg

[Jana]

Lmao anyone who knows about history knows that the Franks conquered Saxony xD. The English and much of the Germans spoke French at court, even some of the Spaniards. Historical fact.

Franks and Saxons had wars, but there was no population replacement of any kind lol, neither much mixing.
Modern descendants of Franks and Saxons are genetically distinct, with Saxons being purer Germanics.

[PaleoEuropean]

Yes, you said it all. The elite change, the peasants stay the same, and all present-day Low Saxons are descended from those Saxon-speaking peasants and not from the Carolingian elite. Plus, Vikings never settled in Lower Saxony. Are u still made about this Yamnaya map?
The Vikings took slaves and pillaged Saxony, learn history. The fact you don't even know the history of Charlemagne's conquests is astounding. :rolleyes: come back when you don't have something you pulled out of your arse m8

[Token]

Franks in Charlemange spoke vernecular Frankish. Not French, which did'nt exist then. Only Gallo Roman peseants and Frankish elites spoke vulgar latin

What did you expect from a American mutt calling himself Norman?

[PaleoEuropean]

Franks and Saxons had wars, but there was no population replacement of any kind lol, neither much mixing.
Modern descendants of Franks and Saxons are genetically distinct, with Saxons being purer Germanics.

I said watered down, not replaced. Saxons are only distinct because of their Frisian and Danish input, which is why they cluster with Frisians.

[PaleoEuropean]

What did you expect from a American mutt calling himself Norman?
U mad because Ur a Triracial Mexican :rolleyes:, lets see a picture of you.

[Token]

U mad because Ur a Triracial Mexican :rolleyes:, lets see a picture of you.

Funnily enough i look very similar to you, be happy.

[PaleoEuropean]

Funnily enough i look very similar to you, be happy.

Lmao I don't where a sombrero and look Mexican.

[Jana]

I said watered down, not replaced. Saxons are only distinct because of their Frisian and Danish input, which is why they cluster with Frisians.

It's simply false and you base it on your own ideas without any factual basis. Germans of lower Saxony are descendants of Saxons, it's really simple.

[PaleoEuropean]

It's simply false and you base it on your own ideas without any factual basis. Germans of lower Saxony are descendants of Saxons, it's really simple.

That's coming from someone who thinks Greeks are Isis though :rolleyes:

[Oneeye]

Southerners tend to call themselves Anglo Norman, if not plain Jane American, rather than us Yankees going by Anglo Saxon.

[Leto]

The Anglo-Saxons were pure Danish-like Germanics.

[Token]

Celtic admixture might be affecting Paleowog cognition.

[Jana]

That's coming from someone who thinks Greeks are Isis though :rolleyes:

Lmao. Actually my German ancestry in majority comes from Frankish settled region, and I found DNA results of people fully from there. They are genetically nothing like Token or Low Saxons.

[templumForasticus]

Modern Saxons don't exist inside Germany, they have been watered down by the Vikings and Franks.

Frisons.

[J. Ketch]

I haven't seen any reliable Lower Saxon averages so it's hard to say exactly. There is some overlap between them but by NW Euro standards North Germans and English are fairly distinct.

K13 updated

Distance to: North_German
3.01179349 Danish
4.51996681 German_West
4.68223237 North-Dutch
5.30584583 Norwegian
5.54860343 Swedish
5.73335853 English
6.38570278 Orcadian
7.08552045 Southeast_English
7.08740432 Irish
7.89520107 Scottish
8.08936957 West_Scottish
8.64198473 South_Dutch
8.91300174 West_German
9.02249965 Southwest_English
9.41244389 Welsh
11.85654250 Austrian
11.98557049 East_German
12.20056146 North-Swedish
12.89535188 Swiss_German
14.03269397 German_east

Distance to: English
2.30147779 Orcadian
2.56378626 Southeast_English
3.30301378 Irish
3.37492222 Southwest_English
3.88811008 Scottish
3.91784379 West_Scottish
4.00558360 North-Dutch
4.44876387 Welsh
5.50326267 Danish
5.56364089 German_West
5.73335853 North_German
6.29085050 Norwegian
7.38489675 South_Dutch
8.47239045 Swedish
8.89932582 West_German
12.87744152 Swiss_German
13.66327925 French
15.01937415 Austrian
15.43100450 East_German
16.11582452 Swiss_French

Distance to: Southeast_English
2.56378626 English
3.42439776 Southwest_English
3.44534469 Orcadian
4.83244245 West_Scottish
4.87660743 Irish
5.02547510 Scottish
5.30794687 North-Dutch
5.86740999 Welsh
6.31083988 German_West
6.59688563 Danish
7.07282829 South_Dutch
7.08552045 North_German
7.70485561 Norwegian
8.61973317 West_German
9.49910522 Swedish
12.49845991 Swiss_German
12.73405670 French
15.53655689 Austrian
15.79800620 Swiss_French
16.11096211 East_German

Distance to: CreodaMum
2.55197962 English
3.86297813 Orcadian
4.19584318 North-Dutch
4.28864781 Irish
4.42314368 Southeast_English
4.48811765 North_German
4.87687400 German_West
4.89385329 Scottish
5.14634822 Danish
5.31528927 West_Scottish
5.45214637 Southwest_English
5.58122746 Welsh
6.17797702 Norwegian
7.49685934 South_Dutch
8.12184708 Swedish
8.61499855 West_German
12.73592949 Swiss_German
14.01233028 Austrian
14.18824866 French
14.36254504 East_German

K15 updated

Distance to: North_German
5.15821675 North_Dutch
5.26299344 Dutch
5.98198128 Irish
6.12743013 Southeast_English
6.27933914 England
6.67513296 West_Scottish
6.88923798 Scotland
7.12221174 Belgium
7.12614201 Danish
7.25214451 South_Dutch
7.29984931 Southwest_English
7.84733076 Swedish
8.24402208 Norway
8.52363772 German_Bavarian
8.60585266 North_Swedish
8.67487176 Norwegian
8.93038073 Orcadian
9.21108571 West_German
10.60466407 Austria-Burgenland
10.62841004 West_Norwegian

Distance to: England
2.15993055 Southeast_English
2.64543002 Southwest_English
2.92735375 Dutch
3.06903894 Irish
3.16646491 Scotland
3.24365535 West_Scottish
4.31971064 North_Dutch
4.33732637 Orcadian
6.27933914 North_German
6.45693426 Belgium
6.91806331 Danish
8.07779054 South_Dutch
8.26478070 Norway
8.65401063 Norwegian
8.77520940 Swedish
9.26756710 West_Norwegian
9.82584348 West_German
9.96014056 North_Swedish
10.53044633 German_Bavarian
12.84070092 French

Distance to: Southeast_English
2.15993055 England
2.73345935 Southwest_English
2.83554228 Irish
3.23054175 West_Scottish
3.73359076 Dutch
3.80123664 Scotland
4.89123706 North_Dutch
5.03069578 Orcadian
5.45652820 Belgium
6.12743013 North_German
7.40921048 South_Dutch
7.68064450 Danish
9.19393822 Norway
9.48729677 Norwegian
9.51849253 West_German
9.61117058 Swedish
9.80681396 German_Bavarian
10.13217153 West_Norwegian
10.69901397 North_Swedish
12.07749560 French

Distance to: CreodaMum
3.20820822 Dutch
3.90920708 Scotland
4.09079454 England
4.83204925 North_Dutch
5.33680616 Southwest_English
5.33958800 Orcadian
5.64401453 Southeast_English
5.93616880 West_Scottish
6.11015548 Danish
6.36455812 Irish
6.61306283 Norway
6.93588495 Norwegian
7.11187036 North_German
7.38524881 Swedish
7.81595803 West_Norwegian
7.96486033 Belgium
8.44212059 North_Swedish
9.12502055 West_German
9.15675161 South_Dutch
11.47654565 German_Bavarian

[Synapsid]

Funnily enough i look very similar to you, be happy.

You are very north german genetically. Do you see yourself as Saxon or Frankish (dutch like)

[Token]

You are very north german genetically. Do you see yourself as Saxon or Frankish (dutch like)



<<<< Look at my profile.

[Synapsid]

Franks and Saxons had wars, but there was no population replacement of any kind lol, neither much mixing.
Modern descendants of Franks and Saxons are genetically distinct, with Saxons being purer Germanics.

That is the case now. But not in classical antiquity, the Franks were as Germanic as the Saxons, esp. the ripurian franks. Lets not Forget that the Dutch are heavily influenced by the Franks, and they are very Germanic Genetically.

[Synapsid]

<<<< Look at my profile.

Doh, I feel like homer simpson. I am drinking a lot wine today

[Jana]

That is the case now. But not in classical antiquity, the Franks were as Germanic as the Saxons, esp. the ripurian franks. Lets not Forget that the Dutch are heavily influenced by the Franks, and they are very Germanic Genetically.

Southern Dutch are close to Frankish descended Germans and they are not so much Germanic genetically.
Hessians from region my ancestors are from often score South Dutch as no.1 population, it's pretty southern shifted.

Yes, early Franks were pure Germanics but modern Frankish descendants are mixed with Celts and Slavs too, in eastern Franconia where Kyp Snow mother is from, for example.
They are close to standard West German reference.

North Dutch are rather Frisian, Norse and Saxon descended and they are as much Germanic as low Saxons are.

[Token]

That is the case now. But not in classical antiquity, the Franks were as Germanic as the Saxons, esp. the ripurian franks. Lets not Forget that the Dutch are heavily influenced by the Franks, and they are very Germanic Genetically.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Unlike Saxons the Franks of Rhineland were surrounded by Celtic people. By the Classical Antiquity there were probably Scandinavian-like and mixed West German-like people living side by side, as in the case of the Longobards.

[Jana]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Unlike Saxons the Franks of Rhineland were surrounded by Celtic people. By the Classical Antiquity there were probably Scandinavian-like and mixed West German-like people living side by side, as in the case of the Longobards.

Very interesting :)

[Synapsid]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Unlike Saxons the Franks of Rhineland were surrounded by Celtic people. By the Classical Antiquity there were probably Scandinavian-like and mixed West German-like people living side by side, as in the case of the Longobards.

Surely the ethnogenesis of the Franks must come from a purely Germanic population right?

[Token]

I believe the Ripuarian Frankish elite was still largely Scandinavian-like by the early Medieval age. In Longobard burials people with rich warrior burials were all of northern ancestry while people with more southern profile were buried with less grave goods. People of northern ancestry also had a much better meat-rich diet.

[Token]

Surely the ethnogenesis of the Franks must come from a purely Germanic population right?
Sure.

[SharpFork]

Yes, you said it all. The elite change, the peasants stay the same, and all present-day Low Saxons are descended from those Saxon-speaking peasants and not from the Carolingian elite. Plus, Vikings never settled in Lower Saxony. Are u still made about this Yamnaya map?
Everyone with a fucking brain can simply pick a book an read that there was continuity even at the level of the elite in Saxony. Let alone peasantry.

[Token]

Everyone with a fucking brain can simply pick a book an read that there was continuity even at the level of the elite in Saxony. Let alone peasantry.

This idiot came here just to embarass himself. Had he done a quock google search he'd know that there were pure Saxons among the first dukes of the Duchy of Saxony and the royal Ottonian dinasty had local origins.

[PaleoEuropean]

This idiot came here just to embarass himself. Had he done a quock google search he'd know that there were pure Saxons among the first dukes of the Duchy of Saxony and the royal Ottonian dinasty had local origins.

Stay salty, facts don't care about your feelings or fragile ego

"Back came Charlemagne, in 785. He defeated Widukind and so thoroughly destroyed the Saxon army that further resistance was impossible. Charles now embarked on a policy to eliminate the Saxon threat forever.

Once again he imposed Christianity at sword point, but he went much further. He founded monasteries and filled them with Franks. He founded villages and filled those, too, with Frankish peasants. He carved up Saxony into administrative units and gave them to his nobles to rule.

Charles went further yet. He destroyed the pagan temples, of course, as he had done before. He destroyed hundreds of Saxon villages, as before. But now he actually removed the Saxon peasants, resettling them into other lands. It was a Saxon diaspora, a scattering of a people. The Saxons were destroyed as a culture, and they would never again rebel"

[J. Ketch]

So what would Charlemagne's Frankish forces have been like genetically in the 8th Century? More like Saxons or more like modern Celto-Germanic West Germans and Dutch?

[Jana]

So what would Charlemagne's Frankish forces have been like genetically in the 8th Century? More like Saxons or more like modern Celto-Germanic West Germans and Dutch?

More like Saxons is my guess. But maybe they were already admixed by that time.

[SharpFork]

So what would Charlemagne's Frankish forces have been like genetically in the 8th Century? More like Saxons or more like modern Celto-Germanic West Germans and Dutch?

Probably West Germanic, I mean most of Austrasia is still West Germanic and we are 3 centuries into the creation of the Frankish kingdom.

[J. Ketch]

Probably West Germanic, I mean most of Austrasia is still West Germanic and we are 3 centuries into the creation of the Frankish kingdom.
Saxons were West Germanic, but I take your point and agree it's likely that the bulk of Frankish armies (if not the elites) were Celto-Germanic mixed by that point.

[SharpFork]

Saxons were West Germanic, but I take your point and agree it's likely that the bulk of Frankish armies (if not the elites) were Celto-Germanic mixed by that point.
I meant West German genetically, AFAIK the genetic border between West German and South Dutch vs North German and North Dutch roughly follows the borders of the Franks with Frisians and Saxons in the early 8th century, I find that a good indication of the pattern.

[SharpFork]

Double

[Samnium]

Language means nothing, peasants don't speak court languages, Farmers didn't need to speak French, they were out in the mud doing work all day not rubbing elbow with their Frankish rulers.

If Inquisition still existed, you would have been sent in jail for having said an historical heresy like that.

[Token]

Saxons were West Germanic, but I take your point and agree it's likely that the bulk of Frankish armies (if not the elites) were Celto-Germanic mixed by that point.

There wasn't enough time for a generalized mixture though. It is likely that the warrior elite was still largely Scandinavian-like, as in the case of the Longobards.

[Norb]

There wasn't enough time for a generalized mixture though. It is likely that the warrior elite was still largely Scandinavian-like, as in the case of the Longobards.

can you post your DNA results?

[J. Ketch]

There wasn't enough time for a generalized mixture though. It is likely that the warrior elite was still largely Scandinavian-like, as in the case of the Longobards.
How long do you think it would have taken for the Anglo-Saxon admixture in England to become relatively consistent and similar to modern English people?

Do you believe the later English aristocracy of the 9th-11th Centuries (Alfred, Athelstan, Edmund the Martyr, Lady Godiva, Ethelred etc) were still mostly/nearly completely Germanic?