Why do GEDMatch and other tests always use Trapani/Syracuse as their Sicily samples?

[Sikeliot]

Why not use Palermo and Catania? or Agrigento and Messina?

is it because Trapani is genetically a "northern" shifted outlier for western Sicily (with a significant amount of Norman, mainland Italian, Greek, and even some British ancestry in some towns from the 1800s) and Syracuse lacks any significant Phoenician, Carthaginian, Berber, or Arab input and is halfway to mainland Greeks?

[Aren]

You cannot seriously expect other people to obsess over the small differences between various parts of Sicily like you do? No need to overthink this.

[Sikeliot]

You cannot seriously expect other people to obsess over the small differences between various parts of Sicily like you do? No need to overthink this.

It isn't a small difference is my point. This is what happens when specific areas of islands, countries, etc. see a mass of foreign settlement and are cut off from the rest.

[Aren]

It isn't a small difference is my point. This is what happens when specific areas of islands, countries, etc. see a mass of foreign settlement and are cut off from the rest.

There are hundreds of ethnicites not even represented on Gedmatch and other sites yet Sicily is often divided in different parts. How can you expect more? And yes the difference is rather small, which you have showed us yourself.

[Sikeliot]

There are hundreds of ethnicites not even represented on Gedmatch and other sites yet Sicily is often divided in different parts. How can you expect more? And yes the difference is rather small, which you have showed us yourself.

You aren't getting my point. Why is it the northernmost two regions used on calculators to represent the island as a whole and not Messina vs Palermo (which would collectively paint a different image of the genetics)?

[Aren]

You aren't getting my point. Why is it the northernmost two regions used on calculators to represent the island as a whole and not Messina vs Palermo (which would collectively paint a different image of the genetics)?

Probably because those averages are easier obtain. Like I said the average person doesn't know nor cares about the small difference between Messina and Palermo. There are far more other important things for these guys to think about rather than this.

[Sikeliot]

Probably because those averages are easier obtain. Like I said the average person doesn't know nor cares about the small difference between Messina and Palermo. There are far more other important things for these guys to think about rather than this.

You don't get it still.

If we use Syracuse and Trapani, Sicily no longer looks like it is outside of the Southeast European norm, but rather a slightly "southern" version of mainland Greece.

if you used Palermo vs Catania or used Agrigento vs Messina, you find a Sicily that is more like a mixture of Malta and Crete, or that is as close to Algerian Jews and Cypriots as it is to mainland Greeks and Abruzzese.

[Aren]

You don't get it still.

If we use Syracuse and Trapani, Sicily no longer looks like it is outside of the Southeast European norm, but rather a slightly "southern" version of mainland Greece.

if you used Palermo vs Catania or used Agrigento vs Messina, you find a Sicily that is more like a mixture of Malta and Crete, or that is as close to Algerian Jews and Cypriots as it is to mainland Greeks and Abruzzese.

You asked why two more northerly regions are used and the simple answer is probably that those averages are easier to obtain, unless you think there's some kind of hidden agenda behind this. What is it that you really want answered?

[Sikeliot]

You asked why two more northerly regions are used and the simple answer is probably that those averages are easier to obtain, unless you think there's some kind of hidden agenda behind this. What is it that you really want answered?

Nothing specific. I am just wondering why those samples would have been chosen when they are outliers.

[Aren]

Nothing specific. I am just wondering why those samples would have been chosen when they are outliers.

Sure they are.

[Sikeliot]

Sure they are.

There are people from Trapani used in the academic samples who are genetically closer to Tuscans than to the South Italian/Calabrian sample. There are Syracusans in the academic sample with over 10% Baltic on Eurogenes K13, who plot halfway to mainland Greece.

How can you say these are not outliers?

[Aren]

There are people from Trapani used in the academic samples who are genetically closer to Tuscans than to the South Italian/Calabrian sample. There are Syracusans in the academic sample with over 10% Baltic on Eurogenes K13, who plot halfway to mainland Greece.

How can you say these are not outliers?
Because you can find these kind of examples all over Sicily, not just in one specific area.

[Sikeliot]

Because you can find these kind of examples all over Sicily, not just in one specific area.

I have 100+ GEDMatch kits. None of the other regions have this.

[Aren]

I have 100+ GEDMatch kits. None of the other regions have this.

Yes and I've looked through many of your threads, it's quite clear you are exaggerating the differences between the various parts of Sicily. Thinking every small % here and there represents actual divergence from the main population.

[Sikeliot]

Yes and I've looked through many of your threads, it's quite clear you are exaggerating the differences between the various parts of Sicily. Thinking every small % here and there represents actual divergence from the main population.

If you don't see an immense difference between these two people (the first is from Trapani, second from Palermo) I can't help you.

#1:


# Population Percent
1 East_Med 28.14
2 West_Med 25.07
3 North_Atlantic 21.66
4 Baltic 9.36
5 West_Asian 9.27
6 Red_Sea 4.07
7 East_Asian 0.79
8 Northeast_African 0.71
9 Sub-Saharan 0.47
10 Oceanian 0.46

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_Sicilian 3.32
2 Tuscan 5.93
3 Italian_Abruzzo 6.76
4 East_Sicilian 7.45
5 Central_Greek 7.74
6 South_Italian 8.3
7 Greek_Thessaly 8.53
8 Ashkenazi 10.17
9 North_Italian 11.89
10 Italian_Jewish 12.78
11 Algerian_Jewish 12.99
12 Sephardic_Jewish 13.53
13 Bulgarian 16.38
14 Tunisian_Jewish 17.67
15 Romanian 17.89
16 Libyan_Jewish 18.1
17 Spanish_Extremadura 19.75
18 Portuguese 20.07
19 Spanish_Andalucia 20.31
20 Spanish_Murcia 20.79

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.3% North_Italian + 47.7% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.24
2 92.1% West_Sicilian + 7.9% Sardinian @ 2.39
3 70.3% Tuscan + 29.7% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.52
4 85.3% West_Sicilian + 14.7% North_Italian @ 2.66
5 93.1% West_Sicilian + 6.9% Southwest_French @ 2.7
6 73.8% West_Sicilian + 26.2% Tuscan @ 2.75
7 92.2% West_Sicilian + 7.8% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.81
8 93.2% West_Sicilian + 6.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.81
9 92.3% West_Sicilian + 7.7% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.87
10 93.7% West_Sicilian + 6.3% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.88
11 93.1% West_Sicilian + 6.9% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.89
12 95.7% West_Sicilian + 4.3% French_Basque @ 2.89
13 93.2% West_Sicilian + 6.8% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.9
14 92.9% West_Sicilian + 7.1% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.91
15 93.3% West_Sicilian + 6.7% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.92
16 92.7% West_Sicilian + 7.3% Portuguese @ 2.93
17 65.3% North_Italian + 34.7% Cyprian @ 2.94
18 93% West_Sicilian + 7% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.94
19 92.7% West_Sicilian + 7.3% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.94
20 60.2% Tuscan + 39.8% South_Italian @ 3.03




#2:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 33.08
2 West_Med 21.07
3 North_Atlantic 16.06
4 West_Asian 12.15
5 Red_Sea 7.46
6 Baltic 6.89
7 Sub-Saharan 1.73
8 Amerindian 1.18
9 Oceanian 0.38

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Italian 4.31
2 East_Sicilian 4.5
3 Ashkenazi 5.23
4 Central_Greek 6.25
5 Sephardic_Jewish 6.37
6 Algerian_Jewish 6.55
7 Italian_Jewish 6.71
8 West_Sicilian 6.85
9 Italian_Abruzzo 8.46
10 Tunisian_Jewish 10.23
11 Libyan_Jewish 11.04
12 Greek_Thessaly 11.72
13 Tuscan 13.48
14 Cyprian 14
15 Lebanese_Muslim 17.56
16 Syrian 18.34
17 Samaritan 19.91
18 North_Italian 19.99
19 Bulgarian 20.42
20 Tunisian 20.54

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 66.2% Sephardic_Jewish + 33.8% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.56
2 77% West_Sicilian + 23% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.63
3 75.8% West_Sicilian + 24.2% Samaritan @ 2.65
4 57.3% Algerian_Jewish + 42.7% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.7
5 61.8% East_Sicilian + 38.2% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.77
6 63.4% East_Sicilian + 36.6% Italian_Jewish @ 2.8
7 51.5% Central_Greek + 48.5% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.8
8 62.8% East_Sicilian + 37.2% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.82
9 78.1% Sephardic_Jewish + 21.9% Bulgarian @ 2.89
10 57.8% South_Italian + 42.2% Ashkenazi @ 2.95
11 59.9% Tuscan + 40.1% Samaritan @ 2.95
12 61.6% Tuscan + 38.4% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.98
13 50.6% Central_Greek + 49.4% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.99
14 69% West_Sicilian + 31% Cyprian @ 3.02
15 51.6% North_Italian + 48.4% Lebanese_Christian @ 3.03
16 52.3% Central_Greek + 47.7% Italian_Jewish @ 3.05
17 50.1% Samaritan + 49.9% North_Italian @ 3.09
18 85.3% Sephardic_Jewish + 14.7% Moldavian @ 3.09
19 75% East_Sicilian + 25% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.11
20 91.9% South_Italian + 8.1% Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.12

[Aren]

And what does two examples who are surely carefully selected by you change anything? Face it, the difference within Sicily is small. Obsessing over it won't change anything.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

So you really think they chose samples from those regions because they are more northern shifted? LMAO, then tell me why the sample used for South Italy comes from Calabria which is one of the most southern shifted areas of south Italy.

[Sikeliot]

So you really think they chose samples from those regions because they are more northern shifted? LMAO, then tell me why the sample used for South Italy comes from Calabria which is one of the most southern shifted areas of south Italy.

No, I don't think it was done intentionally but I think after being made aware that the regions are outliers, the samples should have been changed.

[Haider]

Scientists' lack of knowledge of history.

[Sikeliot]

Scientists' lack of knowledge of history.

What I don't get is why people above think the differences are "small" when it is clearly not the case.

[Leto]

Cannot agree more with Aren on this. Sikeliot wants an island like Sicily to be represented with like 4-5 different reference populations. At the same time the entire region of North Italy is barely discussed on this forum. I've also seen many of his threads and to be honest the differences were rather small indeed. I mean you can find differences even in one province or city, people aren't supposed to be identical.

[Aren]

Cannot agree more with Aren on this. Sikeliot wants an island like Sicily to be represented with like 4-5 different reference populations. At the same time the entire region of North Italy is barely discussed on this forum. I've also seen many of his threads and to be honest the differences were rather small indeed. I mean you can find differences even in one province or city, people aren't supposed to be identical.

When even siblings score differently you know that this isn't really a science where everyone from the same ethnicity should be scoring 99% the same. But people are so snowed in into various false beliefs...

[Sikeliot]

Cannot agree more with Aren on this. Sikeliot wants an island like Sicily to be represented with like 4-5 different reference populations. At the same time the entire region of North Italy is barely discussed on this forum. I've also seen many of his threads and to be honest the differences were rather small indeed. I mean you can find differences even in one province or city, people aren't supposed to be identical.

Ok I get what you are saying but do you really think the two most genetically "northern" regions should be used to represent the entire island? How is that accurate at all?

[Leto]

Ok I get what you are saying but do you really think the two most genetically "northern" regions should be used to represent the entire island? How is that accurate at all?
Well, I don't know for sure if the samples accurately represent the actual average Sicilian, because there are samples for other groups which aren't representative or accurate.

[Sikeliot]

Well, I don't know for sure if the samples accurately represent the actual average Sicilian, because there are samples for other groups which aren't representative or accurate.

They represent their regions but not the rest of the island. Sicily isn't that diverse and I am not claiming it is, but Syracuse/Trapani deviate from the norm enough that they shouldn't be used to form the average.

[Lucas]

They represent their regions but not the rest of the island. Sicily isn't that diverse and I am not claiming it is, but Syracuse/Trapani deviate from the norm enough that they shouldn't be used to form the average.

You can ask personally Vadim Verenich, Kurd and Davidski (on Anthrgenica) wh they use those Sicilian samples. I think main reason is that most of Gedmatch calcs is old and reference spreadsheets were combined before other regions of Sicily were tested.

[Sikeliot]

You can ask personally Vadim Verenich, Kurd and Davidski (on Anthrgenica) wh they use those Sicilian samples. I think main reason is that most of Gedmatch calcs is old and reference spreadsheets were combined before other regions of Sicily were tested.

Based on your findings, do you agree with me that these samples are outliers and not representative of the whole island? What is your view based on all the samples you've seen? Which regions would you choose?

[Sikeliot]

You can ask personally Vadim Verenich, Kurd and Davidski (on Anthrgenica) wh they use those Sicilian samples. I think main reason is that most of Gedmatch calcs is old and reference spreadsheets were combined before other regions of Sicily were tested.

Based on your findings, do you agree with me that these samples are outliers and not representative of the whole island? What is your view based on all the samples you've seen? Which regions would you choose?

[FinalFlash]

Cannot agree more with Aren on this. Sikeliot wants an island like Sicily to be represented with like 4-5 different reference populations. At the same time the entire region of North Italy is barely discussed on this forum. I've also seen many of his threads and to be honest the differences were rather small indeed. I mean you can find differences even in one province or city, people aren't supposed to be identical.

And we dont even get 2, at least on Eurogenes.