View Full Version : Русский каганат
http://gumilevica.kulichki.net/VGV/vgv172.htm
Osweo
03-05-2009, 06:51 PM
O Xopc, leniviy ty chelovek! Pishi o dannom probleme v svoix sobstvennikh slovakh, i potom nachinaemsya... U menya net vremena kak u Vernadskogo dlya togo chtoby pisat' doklad akademicheskogo kachestva, konechno, no mogu otvetit' na raznie voprosy v tsepe logiki antinormanist school.
Imeya v vidu chto u nas zdes na forume est' inoyazychniye lyudi kotorym etot spor budet interesno, ya predpochital by govorit' po angliiskii, esli ty ne protiv, a? (Malo togo, chto tvoi yazyk uzhasno vyglyadit v etom shrifte!)
In other words, could we boil down the antiNormanist position to its simplest essentials, and see whether it then can stand up to scrutiny?
Vsego Dobrogo, :Pswiu
Сould we boil down the Normanist position to its simplest essentials, and see whether it then can stand up to scrutiny?
Osweo
03-05-2009, 10:41 PM
Сould we boil down the Normanist position to its simplest essentials, and see whether it then can stand up to scrutiny?
:p Lazier and Lazier! (Prosti - mne trudno vsegda podumat' kak pisat' po russkiy s latyntsami; budu prodolzhat' v rodnom yazyke). Very well...
The ruling dynasty, as everyone knows, was called the Ryurikoviches, the sons of Ryurik. The name is clearly unslavonic, almost guaranteedly Germanic, and likeliest of Scandinavian origin.
Any theory that denies this, must explain the name in another way.
Legend states that Ryurik established himself in Novgorod the Great, where you can still see Ryurikovo Gorodische, the Old Abandoned Town of Ryurik. The place is often mentioned in Norse sagas, and had a considerable Norse population in its early period. This is not to say that it didn't exist before Ryurik came, but that its later rulers all descended from him until 1613.
The Norse sagas, and many contemporary runic gravestones, point to the east as a place where a warrior could get rich. These Varyagi were often to be found sailing up the rivers from the Gulf of Finland, over the portages and into the Volga river system or Dnepr. Many Norsemen passed through entirely, on the way to Konstantinopolis to serve in the Imperial guard there. Some stopped along the way, and carved brief kingdoms out of Slavonic territory they sailed through. A good example of these would be Askold and Dir who were recorded as ruling Kiev before the Rurikids siezed the town. The names are clearly Norse.
Povest Vremenykh Let is the Russian chronicle written in Kiev a few centuries later, presenting the 'Normanist' school with its standard chronology. It has been subject to some ingenius criticism - I've read Gumilyov's theories on it - and perhaps all is not quite as it seems therein. However, Russian rulers from the time of the Varangians often bore plainly Scandinavian names - Igor', from Ingvar, Oleg from Helgi, Ol'ga from Helga. These names are witnessed in the contemporary chronicles and documents of neighbouring peoples, such as the HLGU recorded in the Khazar correspondence.
It seems in short that the Norsemen had supplanted the local Slavonic rulers, and set themselves over the people that then took their masters' name, the Rus'. In my own homeland, Norsemen smashed the old Kingdoms of Northumbria, East Anglia and Mercia, and very nearly finished off the only survivor, until Aelfred the Great turned the tide on them. Even after Aelfred's victory, the Norse soon returned, giving us King Sweyn Forkbeard, Knut the Great, Harthacnut. Even the great 'last English King' Harold II who was killed in 1066 by Vilgelm Zavoevatel' bore a Scandinavian name, and carried some of their blood.
What's wrong with this? Please, demolish away! :D
The ruling dynasty, as everyone knows, was called the Ryurikoviches, the sons of Ryurik. The name is clearly unslavonic, almost guaranteedly Germanic, and likeliest of Scandinavian origin.
Prove it.
Any theory that denies this, must explain the name in another way.
In Slavic it's Rarog.
Legend states that Ryurik established himself in Novgorod the Great, where you can still see Ryurikovo Gorodische, the Old Abandoned Town of Ryurik. The place is often mentioned in Norse sagas, and had a considerable Norse population in its early period. This is not to say that it didn't exist before Ryurik came, but that its later rulers all descended from him until 1613.
Irrelevant.
The Norse sagas, and many contemporary runic gravestones, point to the east as a place where a warrior could get rich. These Varyagi were often to be found sailing up the rivers from the Gulf of Finland, over the portages and into the Volga river system or Dnepr. Many Norsemen passed through entirely, on the way to Konstantinopolis to serve in the Imperial guard there. Some stopped along the way, and carved brief kingdoms out of Slavonic territory they sailed through. A good example of these would be Askold and Dir who were recorded as ruling Kiev before the Rurikids siezed the town. The names are clearly Norse.
Irrelevant.
Povest Vremenykh Let is the Russian chronicle written in Kiev a few centuries later, presenting the 'Normanist' school with its standard chronology. It has been subject to some ingenius criticism - I've read Gumilyov's theories on it - and perhaps all is not quite as it seems therein. However, Russian rulers from the time of the Varangians often bore plainly Scandinavian names - Igor', from Ingvar, Oleg from Helgi, Ol'ga from Helga. These names are witnessed in the contemporary chronicles and documents of neighbouring peoples, such as the HLGU recorded in the Khazar correspondence.
All Russian Tzars had "Biblical", does it mean they were Jewish?
Scandinavian dukes had Slavic names, German kings had Roman names and on and on...
It seems in short that the Norsemen had supplanted the local Slavonic rulers, and set themselves over the people that then took their masters' name, the Rus'.
Even the legend says otherwise. Even in theory it was only the dynasty, and not Norsemen.
In my own homeland, Norsemen smashed the old Kingdoms of Northumbria, East Anglia and Mercia, and very nearly finished off the only survivor, until Aelfred the Great turned the tide on them. Even after Aelfred's victory, the Norse soon returned, giving us King Sweyn Forkbeard, Knut the Great, Harthacnut. Even the great 'last English King' Harold II who was killed in 1066 by Vilgelm Zavoevatel' bore a Scandinavian name, and carried some of their blood.
What's wrong with this? Please, demolish away! :D
The name Rus' and the first Russian state is known in Middle Dnieper long before any Scandinavians made it there.
Osweo
03-06-2009, 10:53 PM
Prove it.
Prove that Ryurik is a Germanic name? Well, it's got a rik on the end of it, and there's an ATTESTED Danish name that's very similar - Hraerik is it? I forget, but it's something like that.
In Slavic it's Rarog.
An unattested name, made up by those Slavs who are uncomfortable with the idea that their ancestors were defeated by Norsemen (who are yet ALSO their ancestors, in all likelihood - you've nothing to be ASHAMED of here!).
"Rarog"?!? What on Earth sort of name is that supposed to be, anyway? Where did you read it? "Ra-" doesn't MEAN anything in Slavonic, and "Rog" means 'horn'. This is a made up name, with no parallels in Slavonic onomastica.
Irrelevant.
If you can't be bothered typing in English, please do so in Russian, and I'll answer in English - easiest for everyone.
WHAT is irrelevant here? That there is a clear tradition of Scandinacvian activity around Lake Il'men?
Irrelevant.
Not really. :coffee:
All Russian Tzars had "Biblical", does it mean they were Jewish?
Easily explained by the prestige of Christianity and Byzantium. That's why these names were adopted. WHY did Scandinavian names have prestige, leading to their widespread adoption by a Russian ruling class?
Scandinavian dukes had Slavic names, German kings had Roman names and on and on...
Which Scando dukes are these? The first Svyatoslav?
Even the legend says otherwise. Even in theory it was only the dynasty, and not Norsemen.
Dynasties only existed because they had strong bodies of armed men to fall back on to support their rule. Their Druzhiny, as you say.
The name Rus' and the first Russian state is known in Middle Dnieper long before any Scandinavians made it there.
PLEASE, POZHALUISTA, UMOLYAYU, tell me about this. Give some details. I've only heard ridiculous conjecture so far.
Remember Occam's Razor. A logical 'instrument'.
The most straightforward answer is often the best! Those which involve over-elaborate schemes and chains of hypothesis are much weaker.
You don't like the fact that the Swedes conquered the ancient Eastern Slavs? Well, sorry, but that's what seems to have happened. Get over it. It doesn't necessarily reflect too badly on you. We English were likewise conquered, subjugated, plundered and humiliated by the Normans, from 1066 till ... well, where did it end? Norman descended Lords STILL sit in the second chamber of our Parliament... :embarrassed
We English were likewise conquered, subjugated, plundered and humiliated by the Normans, from 1066 till ... well, where did it end? Norman descended Lords STILL sit in the second chamber of our Parliament... :embarrassed
O/T but of course there were loads of Viking raids, plunder and settlement in Britain before the 1066 Normans, mostly by the Danes (Danelaw), but also Norwegians. That you know better than me anyway, just thought I'd mention. :)
Osweo
03-06-2009, 11:17 PM
O/T but of course there were loads of Viking raids, plunder and settlement in Britain before the 1066 Normans, mostly by the Danes (Danelaw), but also Norwegians. That you know better than me anyway, just thought I'd mention. :)
I've mentioned these (penultimate paragraph, Post #4), Loki, but count the Norman thing as a better analogy as this conquest established a long term, unchallenged, dynasty, lasting into the modern period. :thumb001:
Something Englishmen can grumble about, but which it would be foolish to deny. Russians have felt more need to 'cover up' their similar experience (and yet who cares - the Ryurikoviches Slavonicised VERY early), because of more unfortunate recent events involving our naughty German cousins, who are ever dranging to the Ost, for some odd, frequently masochistic, reason...
Prove that Ryurik is a Germanic name? Well, it's got a rik on the end of it, and there's an ATTESTED Danish name that's very similar - Hraerik is it? I forget, but it's something like that.
It's Slavic derived.
An unattested name, made up by those Slavs who are uncomfortable with the idea that their ancestors were defeated by Norsemen (who are yet ALSO their ancestors, in all likelihood - you've nothing to be ASHAMED of here!).
"Rarog"?!? What on Earth sort of name is that supposed to be, anyway? Where did you read it? "Ra-" doesn't MEAN anything in Slavonic, and "Rog" means 'horn'. This is a made up name, with no parallels in Slavonic onomastica.
Ok, so the Slavic god Rarog is really an oxymoron :D
Easily explained by the prestige of Christianity and Byzantium. That's why these names were adopted. WHY did Scandinavian names have prestige, leading to their widespread adoption by a Russian ruling class?
Why not? Why Scandinavian ruling dynasties used Slavic names? Neighbourhood...
Anyway, Rurik is a Slavic name, his son's name Igor could be Finnic (Inger), and after that we have Svyatoslav, Vladimir and other unambigiously Slavic names.
I have to point out thou, that the question about the origin of Rurik has little to do with the Normanist theory.
Which Scando dukes are these? The first Svyatoslav?
For example, Danish konungs had Slavic names.
Dynasties only existed because they had strong bodies of armed men to fall back on to support their rule. Their Druzhiny, as you say.
And what's your problem with it?
PLEASE, POZHALUISTA, UMOLYAYU, tell me about this. Give some details. I've only heard ridiculous conjecture so far.
http://www.mubiu.ru/ogd/ISTORIA/4/liter.files/sedov.htm
You don't like the fact that the Swedes conquered the ancient Eastern Slavs?
You don't know our history at all. Even if Rurik was a Swede (it's most unlikely), he was INVITED as a military leader (as was later, traditionally, with Novgorod dukes) and had to conclude a special treaty.
We English were likewise conquered, subjugated, plundered and humiliated by the Normans, from 1066 till ... well, where did it end? Norman descended Lords STILL sit in the second chamber of our Parliament...
Any certified facts of the above in the Russian history?
Osweo
03-07-2009, 11:48 AM
It's Slavic derived.
Etymologiyu, pozhaluista.
Ok, so the Slavic god Rarog is really an oxymoron :D
Svarog I've heard of, but not Rarog - source please!
Why not? Why Scandinavian ruling dynasties used Slavic names?
They used them when there was a dynastic family link. Those days were not like now, when ignorant people buy 'Baby Name' books, and choose merely fromn their twisted sense of aesthetics.
Neighbourhood
There are no names borrowed from your other neighbours, like the Mordva, Balts or Turkics. WHY only borrow from the northwest?
Anyway, Rurik is a Slavic name, his son's name Igor could be Finnic (Inger), and after that we have Svyatoslav, Vladimir and other unambigiously Slavic names.
I need it demonstrated to me HOW Rurik can be a Slavonic name.
Inger, if it is a Finnish name in use in the Ninth Century (itself a doubtful proposition), is probably ITSELF a borrowing from Norse. :rolleyes:
I don't accept this hypothesis for one minute, but IF it were true - why is a Knyaz of Kiev using a Finnish name anyway?
I have to point out thou, that the question about the origin of Rurik has little to do with the Normanist theory.
WHAT is more important, then?
The Rus' - Roksolani idea?
For example, Danish konungs had Slavic names.
That's in a later period, and Waldemar had close Slavonic family links.
http://www.mubiu.ru/ogd/ISTORIA/4/liter.files/sedov.htm
I'll read it in a bit.
You don't know our history at all. Even if Rurik was a Swede (it's most unlikely), he was INVITED as a military leader (as was later, traditionally, with Novgorod dukes) and had to conclude a special treaty.
That's what it says in Povest Vremennykh Let, yes, but that only concerns Novgorod. For the other towns of the Eastern Slavs, the Rurikids came as conquerors. The dealings with the Vyatichi and Drevlyane are a good example of how they came and murdered the old Slavonic ruling class.
Any certified facts of the above in the Russian history?
I gave it as a loose analogy for why Russians shouldn't be so tetchy about this phase of their history - it's the sort of thing we've ALL been through, there's no need to hide it or deny it to ourselves!
Etymologiyu, pozhaluista.
Svarog I've heard of, but not Rarog - source please!
http://eric.extremeboredom.net/images/bart-google.gif
They used them when there was a dynastic family link. Those days were not like now, when ignorant people buy 'Baby Name' books, and choose merely fromn their twisted sense of aesthetics.
You can't prove it.
There are no names borrowed from your other neighbours, like the Mordva, Balts or Turkics. WHY only borrow from the northwest?
Of course, there are.
I need it demonstrated to me HOW Rurik can be a Slavonic name.
Only after your demonstration how it could be a Scandinavian name.
Inger, if it is a Finnish name in use in the Ninth Century (itself a doubtful proposition), is probably ITSELF a borrowing from Norse. :rolleyes:
I don't accept this hypothesis for one minute, but IF it were true - why is a Knyaz of Kiev using a Finnish name anyway?
Acc. to one theory, Rurik was a grandson of Gostomysl of Novgorod via his daughter and son of a Karelian prince.
WHAT is more important, then?
The Rus' - Roksolani idea?
The essence of the Normanist theory, of course, of which you have not got the sllightest idea, it seems.
That's in a later period, and Waldemar had close Slavonic family links.
Later or earlier - irrelevant.
That's what it says in Povest Vremennykh Let, yes, but that only concerns Novgorod. For the other towns of the Eastern Slavs, the Rurikids came as conquerors. The dealings with the Vyatichi and Drevlyane are a good example of how they came and murdered the old Slavonic ruling class.
It was expansion of the Russian state. Olga, who dealt with Dreavlyane, was 100% Slavic (her original name was Slavic). And Vyatichi were dealt with by SvyatoSLAV.
I gave it as a loose analogy for why Russians shouldn't be so tetchy about this phase of their history - it's the sort of thing we've ALL been through, there's no need to hide it or deny it to ourselves!
Nobody is itchy. You challenged me to defend the so called anti-Normanist theory, and it turns out you don't even know what you're talking about, switchin the subject to the supposed Scandinavian conquest and origin of the ruling dynasty.
To sum it all up:
1. The Normanist theory claims that the first Russian state was created by Germanic Scandinavians. To cut the long story of the debate short, it cannot be true because long before any Scandinavian left a footprint outside Ladoga there was a mighty Russian State in what's today NE Ukraine and SW Russia, its inhabitants were known as Rusy and were able to attack Khazaria and Byzantium (first half of the IX century or earlier).
2. The question of conquest. Leaving alone the origin of the Rurik dynasty (it could well be local in origin), available evidence shows that there was not any conquest of Novgorod, but rather Rurik was hired as a military leader, like it was with subsequent Novgorod dukes until Ivan the Third (16th century). And later expansion of the territory of this Russian state is never connected with anything alien, that's with Scandinavians.
3. The problem of ethnic origin of Rurik. New genetical data (Rurikids turns out to be either R1a or N) adds weight to theories proposing local Slavic/West Slavic or Karelian/local Slavic origin of Rurik. In any case, there is no substantial evidence in favor of the Scandinavian origin of Rurik.
3. The problem of ethnic origin of Rurik. New genetical data (Rurikids are either R1a or N) adds weight to theories proposing local Slavic/West Slavic or Karelian/local Slavic origin of Rurik. In any case, there is no substantial evidence suggesting the Scandinavian origin of Rurik.
Where did the idea originate then that Rurik was Scandinavian? Isn't it with Russians themselves? Why would they have such an idea if there is no truth to it? As they say, where there is smoke, there is a fire. I doubt people would just make the story up.
Where did the idea originate then that Rurik was Scandinavian? Isn't it with Russians themselves?
The Normanist theory is dated back to first years of the Russian Academy of Sciences, founded by Peter the Great and almost completely stuffed with Germans, whose Germanic supremacist crap (the very first review of the Russian history was written by Bayer, Schloetzer and Miller.. naturally it reflected the Normanist point of view) was opposed by Lomonosov and a handful of other brave Russian scientists, representing the anti-Normanist point of view.
Why would they have such an idea if there is no truth to it? As they say, where there is smoke, there is a fire. I doubt people would just make the story up.
It's a gem. What are you smoking down there, buddy? :D
The Normanist theory is dated back to first years of the Russian Academy of Sciences, founded by Peter the Great and almost completely stuffed with Germans, whose Germanic supremacist crap (the very first review of the Russian history was written by Bayer, Schloetzer and Miller.. naturally it reflected the Normanist point of view) was opposed by Lomonosov and a handful of other brave Russian scientists, representing the anti-Normanist point of view.
Good answer :thumbs up
It's a gem. What are you smoking down there, buddy? :D
Bad answer :rolleyes:
Bad answer
Please, post this your opinion in the thread about Haider being a gay... :D
Please, post this your opinion in the thread about Haider being a gay... :D
The late Haider's sexual orientation is not at the top of my concerns. :coffee:
Osweo
03-07-2009, 06:51 PM
http://eric.extremeboredom.net/images/bart-google.gif
Wiki:
In Slavic mythology, the Raróg (IPA: ['raruk]), sometimes also known as Zhar Ptitsa or Żar Ptak, is a hawk, falcon, or fiery dwarf who turns himself into a whirlwind. The word 'Raróg' seems to be a late bastardization of the name Svarog. In Lusatia and the Urals it was customary to throw a knife into a whirlwind to kill the demon residing in it. Bulgarians, Russians, and Pommeranians still cast themselves face down before a whirlwind to ward off misfortune and illness. Russians would shout "a belt around your neck!" in order to strangle the demon.
Raróg is also the Polish name of the Saker Falcon.
As I said, Rarog has no age to it, not enough to explain Ryurik. And WHY has the name been so distorted: Rarog > R yu r i k?!?!? THat is not a typical sound change for the history of the Russian language.
THe rest later, I'm tired. :)
Osweo
03-07-2009, 06:54 PM
The Normanist theory is dated back to first years of the Russian Academy of Sciences, founded by Peter the Great and almost completely stuffed with Germans, whose Germanic supremacist crap (the very first review of the Russian history was written by Bayer, Schloetzer and Miller.. naturally it reflected the Normanist point of view) was opposed by Lomonosov and a handful of other brave Russian scientists, representing the anti-Normanist point of view.
We don't have a situation of wicked Germans and Brave Russians here. It was a very POLITICAL decision to silence the German historian Mueller. And it is a grossly unfair character assassination to call him a supremacist. He loved Russia, and was a deeply honest meticulous and honourable man.
We don't have a situation of wicked Germans and Brave Russians here. It was a very POLITICAL decision to silence the German historian Mueller.
I gather you're talking about Stalin... :D
Oswiu.
I read some of Dolukhaovs ”Early Slavs” a while ago and I am thinking of buying it now. If you know of it, do you think it is good? Or would you recommend some other English langue work on pre-Christian Russia?
Wiki:
As I said, Rarog has no age to it, not enough to explain Ryurik.
Another "expert" opinion from the person who just learned about existance of the topic he is discussing :D
And WHY has the name been so distorted: Rarog > R yu r i k?!?!? THat is not a typical sound change for the history of the Russian language.
who says that "Rarog" is the original variant? How's about Rerik? Btw, Rerik was the name of the capital of the Obodrites (now Mecklenburg)
http://kladina.narod.ru/vasilyeva4/frames.htm
РЮРИК. Относительно этого имени уже можно считать доказанным, что и само оно, и подобные ему формы были широко распространены в Европе чуть ли не с 4 в. н. э., среди кельтов и западных славян-вендов19. Между прочим, Рерик - старое название одного из крупных городов вендского Поморья (совр. Мекленбург). Самая западная ветвь славян занимала территорию современной восточной Германии и даже значительную часть полуострова Ютландия... Видимо, поэтому еще в эпоху Каролингов некоторые немецкие феодалы, владевшие только что завоеванными славянскими землями, и носили такие имена, как "Рорик Ютландский" Древние традиции еще не успели "выветриться"!
Кстати, а мог ли в самом деле этот Рорик Ютландский быть "нашим" Рюриком! О Рорике известно, что он в 857-861 гг. владел частью южной Ютландии (Дании) на границах империи Каролингов, а до этого - Дорештадтом на нижнем Рейне. В 870-873 гг. он числился вассалом императора Карла Лысого. Между тем об основателе русской правящей династии, Рюрике, известно, что он не позднее 862 г. (а может быть, и раньше) прибыл в землю словен и оставался их князем до самой своей смерти... Однако нашим норманистам такие "неувязочки" не помеха. Они утверждают, что Рорик Ютландский... мог "побывать" в России (в промежутке 861-870 гг., когда его имя не попадало в тексты западных хроник), потом вернуться обратно (чтобы успеть стать вассалом Карла Лысого!), потом опять в Россию.20 Короче, "гастролировать" со своей труппой "крутые норманны" то там, то сям. Всякому (кроме норманиста) понятно, что новгородский Рюрик и ютландский Рорик никак не могли быть одним и тем же человеком! Тождество их можно допустить, разве что предположив, что один из "двоящихся" князей был дублем другого...
Имена ИГОРЬ и ОЛЕГ норманисты считают "типично скандинавскими", первое одной из "инговых" форм (вроде Ингвар, второе искажением имени Хельги (Хельгу). Договариваются до того, что "Хельги" считают даже не именем, а титулом первых варяжских князей...
А если вспомнить, что в русских былинах есть такой герой, как Вольга Святославич - не простой богатырь, но князь, представитель правящей династии? Очевидно, что Вольга - вариант имени Олег, причем такой, что его трудно сопоставить со скандинавским. Княгиня Ольга в тексте летописи также несколько раз названа Волъгой... Принципиальное различие имен Олег/Ольга (Воль-га) и Хельги/Хельга подтверждают и скандинавские источники! В одной из саг действующими лицами являются русский князь Вальдемар (Владимир Красное Солнышко) и его мать, мудрая престарелая Алогия. Очевидно, что имелась в виду княгиня Ольга, которой Владимир на самом деле приходился внуком. Если бы Ольга была скандинавкой Хельгой, разве появилась бы в сагах такая явно заимствованная, искаженная форма как Алогия?21
Вообще следует заметить, что имена с корнем "ол-", "оли-" были очень распространены у славян. Так, короля южнобалтийских русов-рутенов, воевавшего с датчанами не позднее 7 в. (сообщение Саксона Грамматика), звали Олимир. В раннесредневековой Польше известно имя Олислава, на Руси - Ольстин, Олова. У чехов встречаются: Олата, Олъбрам, Олек, Олен; город Оло-мюц, река Ольцава; у поморских славян - город Ольгощь. И все эти имена имеют варианты: Олимир-Велимир, Ольгост-Велегост, Олен-Велен...22 Интересный вариант имени Олег имеется у балтских народов. Великого князя Литовского, правившего в 14 в., звали Ольгерд (в русских источниках это имя часто передавалось как "Вольгерд"). Очевидно, перед нами сложносоставное имя, первая часть которого "Олег" (Вольга), а окончание - типичное "центральноевропейское" (-ард, "ольд), как в других балтских, западнославянских'и кельтских именах (Аскольд, Витольд, Бернард и т. д.). Хорошо известно, что балты никаких "варягов" не призывали, а по языку и культуре всегда были очень близки славянам...
Хорошо, если имя Олег (Вольга) русское, как это увязать с сообщением Татищева об урманском "норманнском" происхождении Вещего Олега? Эта информация в других источниках не подтверждена23. Но дело даже не в этом. Само слово "норманны" означает попросту "северяне"... Изначально это было не имя народа, но собирательное обозначение для всех жителей Северной Европы. Есть свидетельства, что "норманнами" назывались в раннем средневековье вообще все северные европейцы, безразлично скандинавы или славяне...24
Очевидно, что аналогов имени "Олег" в Скандинавии нет, зато они в изобилии имеются у балтов и западных славян. Не то с именем Игорь. В древности оно звучало с носовым звуком (варианты: Ингер, Ингорь, Ингварь), позднее у славян исчезнувшим. Хорошо известно, что у скандинавских народов имеется множество похожих имен: Ингвар (точное совпадение!), Инге, Ингемар, Ингеборг и др. Но это ни в коем случае не означает, что имя "Игорь" на Русь принесли викинги, и не может служить доказательством скандинавского происхождения князя Игоря, правившего в Киеве в 912-944 годах. Дело в том, что имена такого же рода были хорошо известны не только у скандинавов и германцев, но и у кельтов... Они зафиксированы также и у славян - причем славян южных, с "норманнами" уж никак не связанных. С. Гедеонов обратил внимание на князя Инго, правившего в 803 г. в Хорутании (совр. Словения)25. Что, разве он тоже был родом из Швеции?
Кроме династийных имен, из дохристианского периода истории Руси известны только имена княжеских дружинников, зафиксированные в договорах Олега и Игоря с Византией. Из списка этих имен значительная часть легко объясняется из иранских языков, но немаловажно и то, что не меньшее количество имен имеет "кельтское" объяснение.27 Среди немногочисленных оставшихся легко выделяются имена чудского (финского) происхождения, а также просто имена-"этнонимы": Ятвяг (видимо, носитель его был выходцем из балтского племени ятвагов) и Свень (швед!). Как отмечает А. Г. Кузьмин, само имя "Швед" в отношении высокопоставленного дружинника указывает на то, что в сравнительно моноэтнической элите его положение было заметным, выделяющимся. Видимо, во времена Олега и Игоря скандинавы в великокняжеской дружине были так редки, что назывались просто по имени своего народа... Но это полностью совпадает с известиями современных источников: действие скандинавских саг, повествующих о "норманнах" на русской службе, относится к правлению Владимира и Ярослава, но никак не к более раннему периоду; о том же говорят и русские летописи.
Osweo
03-08-2009, 01:35 AM
I gather you're talking about Stalin... :D
No, Yekaterina II the Great.
http://kladina.narod.ru/vasilyeva4/frames.htm
РЮРИК. Относительно этого имени уже можно считать доказанным, что и само оно, и подобные ему формы были широко распространены в Европе чуть ли не с 4 в. н. э., среди кельтов и западных славян-вендов19. Между прочим, Рерик - старое название одного из крупных городов вендского Поморья (совр. Мекленбург). Самая западная ветвь славян занимала территорию современной восточной Германии и даже значительную часть полуострова Ютландия... Видимо, поэтому еще в эпоху Каролингов некоторые немецкие феодалы, владевшие только что завоеванными славянскими землями, и носили такие имена, как "Рорик Ютландский" Древние традиции еще не успели "выветриться"!
Кстати, а мог ли в самом деле этот Рорик Ютландский быть "нашим" Рюриком! О Рорике известно, что он в 857-861 гг. владел частью южной Ютландии (Дании) на границах империи Каролингов, а до этого - Дорештадтом на нижнем Рейне. В 870-873 гг. он числился вассалом императора Карла Лысого. Между тем об основателе русской правящей династии, Рюрике, известно, что он не позднее 862 г. (а может быть, и раньше) прибыл в землю словен и оставался их князем до самой своей смерти... Однако нашим норманистам такие "неувязочки" не помеха. Они утверждают, что Рорик Ютландский... мог "побывать" в России (в промежутке 861-870 гг., когда его имя не попадало в тексты западных хроник), потом вернуться обратно (чтобы успеть стать вассалом Карла Лысого!), потом опять в Россию.20 Короче, "гастролировать" со своей труппой "крутые норманны" то там, то сям. Всякому (кроме норманиста) понятно, что новгородский Рюрик и ютландский Рорик никак не могли быть одним и тем же человеком! Тождество их можно допустить, разве что предположив, что один из "двоящихся" князей был дублем другого...
Имена ИГОРЬ и ОЛЕГ норманисты считают "типично скандинавскими", первое одной из "инговых" форм (вроде Ингвар, второе искажением имени Хельги (Хельгу). Договариваются до того, что "Хельги" считают даже не именем, а титулом первых варяжских князей...
А если вспомнить, что в русских былинах есть такой герой, как Вольга Святославич - не простой богатырь, но князь, представитель правящей династии? Очевидно, что Вольга - вариант имени Олег, причем такой, что его трудно сопоставить со скандинавским. Княгиня Ольга в тексте летописи также несколько раз названа Волъгой... Принципиальное различие имен Олег/Ольга (Воль-га) и Хельги/Хельга подтверждают и скандинавские источники! В одной из саг действующими лицами являются русский князь Вальдемар (Владимир Красное Солнышко) и его мать, мудрая престарелая Алогия. Очевидно, что имелась в виду княгиня Ольга, которой Владимир на самом деле приходился внуком. Если бы Ольга была скандинавкой Хельгой, разве появилась бы в сагах такая явно заимствованная, искаженная форма как Алогия?21
Вообще следует заметить, что имена с корнем "ол-", "оли-" были очень распространены у славян. Так, короля южнобалтийских русов-рутенов, воевавшего с датчанами не позднее 7 в. (сообщение Саксона Грамматика), звали Олимир. В раннесредневековой Польше известно имя Олислава, на Руси - Ольстин, Олова. У чехов встречаются: Олата, Олъбрам, Олек, Олен; город Оло-мюц, река Ольцава; у поморских славян - город Ольгощь. И все эти имена имеют варианты: Олимир-Велимир, Ольгост-Велегост, Олен-Велен...22 Интересный вариант имени Олег имеется у балтских народов. Великого князя Литовского, правившего в 14 в., звали Ольгерд (в русских источниках это имя часто передавалось как "Вольгерд"). Очевидно, перед нами сложносоставное имя, первая часть которого "Олег" (Вольга), а окончание - типичное "центральноевропейское" (-ард, "ольд), как в других балтских, западнославянских'и кельтских именах (Аскольд, Витольд, Бернард и т. д.). Хорошо известно, что балты никаких "варягов" не призывали, а по языку и культуре всегда были очень близки славянам...
Хорошо, если имя Олег (Вольга) русское, как это увязать с сообщением Татищева об урманском "норманнском" происхождении Вещего Олега? Эта информация в других источниках не подтверждена23. Но дело даже не в этом. Само слово "норманны" означает попросту "северяне"... Изначально это было не имя народа, но собирательное обозначение для всех жителей Северной Европы. Есть свидетельства, что "норманнами" назывались в раннем средневековье вообще все северные европейцы, безразлично скандинавы или славяне...24
Очевидно, что аналогов имени "Олег" в Скандинавии нет, зато они в изобилии имеются у балтов и западных славян. Не то с именем Игорь. В древности оно звучало с носовым звуком (варианты: Ингер, Ингорь, Ингварь), позднее у славян исчезнувшим. Хорошо известно, что у скандинавских народов имеется множество похожих имен: Ингвар (точное совпадение!), Инге, Ингемар, Ингеборг и др. Но это ни в коем случае не означает, что имя "Игорь" на Русь принесли викинги, и не может служить доказательством скандинавского происхождения князя Игоря, правившего в Киеве в 912-944 годах. Дело в том, что имена такого же рода были хорошо известны не только у скандинавов и германцев, но и у кельтов... Они зафиксированы также и у славян - причем славян южных, с "норманнами" уж никак не связанных. С. Гедеонов обратил внимание на князя Инго, правившего в 803 г. в Хорутании (совр. Словения)25. Что, разве он тоже был родом из Швеции?
Whoever wrote that is simply THICK as pig shit, as I would express it in the Manchester vernacular. I'll translate it into English tomorrow to show others how poorly argued this amateur's points are. Can you not see it yourself? :eek::confused:
Stay on topic, please.
You still have to address the issue of early IX century Rus in Middle Dnieper, as well as the nature of relations between the Rurik dynasty and the Novgorod state and how Rurik domaines were expanded and after that you're welcome to discuss how Rurik could not be derived from Rarog-Roerik...
No, Yekaterina II the Great.
What does she have to do with it?
Osweo
03-09-2009, 09:10 PM
http://kladina.narod.ru/vasilyeva4/frames.htm
РЮРИК. Относительно этого имени уже можно считать доказанным, что и само оно, и подобные ему формы были широко распространены в Европе чуть ли не с 4 в. н. э., среди кельтов и западных славян-вендов19.
I've translated this into English, if anyone else is interested (always an interesting exercise, and good practice, no matter what the subject!) - my comments are in RED;
Ryurik.
It can be stated as proven that this name, and others similar in form, was widespread in Europe from the 4th Century AD, among the Celts {{{WHAT?!? Rubbish!}}} and WEstern Slavs/Wends.
Rerik was also the name of one of the greatest towns of Wendish Pomerania (modern Mecklenburg). {{{I've looked at my maps. Where is this place, I couldn't find it.}}} The most western branch of the Slavs occupied the territory of modern East Germany, and even a considerable {{{"small" would be more appropriate a term here.}}} part of the Jutland peninsula. THus, even in the Carolingian period some German feudal lords, ruling lands recently conquered from the Slavs {{{Wasn't this particular Rorik active in lands to the north and west of these?}}}, also wore such names as Rorik of Jutland. The ancient traditions had still not 'dried up'!
Actually, could not this Rorik of Jutland have been our Ryurik? It is known that he ruled the southern portion of Jutland (Denmark) from 857 to 861, on the borders of the Carolingian Empire, and previously Dorestadt on the lower Rhine. In 870-873 he was numbered among the vassals of Charles the Bald. Indeed, the founder of Russia's ruling dynasty, Ryurik, arrived in the lands of the Slovene no later than 862 (possibly a little earlier) and ruled as their Knyaz until his death. .... However, such little "discrepancies" prove no hindrance to our Normanists. They insist that Rorik of Jutland could have "visited" Russia in the time in which western chroniclers do not mention his name, from 861 to 870, and then returned (in order to become a vassal of CHarles the Bald!), and then pop back to Russia. In short, Gastrolling {{{a thespian term for when actors play part of the year in different theatres}}} with his troupe of "cool Normans" hither and thither. To everyone apart from Normanists it's clear that the Novgorod Ryurik and the Jutland Rorik couldn't possibly be the same person! We can hardly suppose they each had a double! {{{I haven't trranslated that very well - any alternative proposals, Hors?}}}
Normanists reckon the names IGOR' and OLEG "typically Scandinavian", the first from "Ing-" forms (such as Ingvar) the second a distortion of Hel'gi (Hel'gu). THey further state that "Helgi" shouldn't even be considered a name, but rather the title of the first Varangian Knyazes...
If we reflect that Russian byliny {{{{(something between a saga and fairy tale)}}} mention a hero by the name of Vol'ga Svyatoslavich - no simple warrior, but a Knyaz, a representative of the ruling dynasty, what then? It is obvious that Vol'ga is a variant of the name Oleg, as the name of the Knyaginya Ol'ga is met several times in chronicles as "Vol'ga"... The distinction between the names Oleg/Ol'ga (Vol' - ga) and Hel'gi/Hel'ga is confirmed even by Scandinavian sources! In one saga, the Russian Knyaz Val'demar (Vladimir Krasnoe Solnyshko) and his mother, the wise old Alogiya are found as central characters. Obviously, Knyaginya Ol'ga was meant, actually Vladimir's grandmother. If Ol'ga was a Scandinavian Hel'ga, how could her name appear in such a clearly borrowed distorted form as Alogiya? {{{Why do Englishmen read about Siegfried instead of 'Sigefrith'?! Why do Welshmen talk about Merlin instead of 'Myrddin'?! Because they've recently reheard traditions pertaining to their ancestors via versions recorded by speakers of other languages. This V- that keeps appearing on the front of these names is nothing but a curious feature found in several Eastern Slavonic dialects - some Ukrainians say 'Vulitsa' for Russian 'ulitsa', meaning 'street'. This pops up in several regions, and it is not surprising to see it occasionally applied to borrowings from Norse.}}}
Generally speaking, it should be remarked that names with the root "ol-", "oli-" were very widespread among the Slavs. THus, the king of the southern Baltic Rusi/Rutheni, fighting with the Danes no later than the Seventh Century (according to Saxo Grammatica {{{who was no stranger to the 'art' of making up semi-plausible names in his very 'inventive' work...}}}), was named Olimir. Olislava was known in early mediaeval Poland, Ol'stin and Olova in Rus' {{{These two don't look in the slightest Slavonic. They're Norse. Alstein and Olaf}}}. Among the Czechs we see Olata, Ol'bram, Olek, Olen, the town Olo-myuts, the river Ol'tsava. {{{A conscientious author would cite some attempts to eytmologise these.}}} THe Pomeranians Slavs had a town Ol'goshch'. And all these names have variants - Olimir/Velimir, Ol'gost/Veligost, Olen/Velen... An interesting variant of the name Oleg is met with among the Baltic peoples. The 14th Century Great Knyaz of Lithuania was named Ol'gerd (often recorded as Vol'gerd in Russian chronicles). We are obviously faced with a complex structured name, the first part being Oleg (Vol'ga), and the ending the typical "Central European" (-ard, -ol'd) {{{The author clearly has a phobia of the very WORD 'Germanic'!}}}, as in other Baltic, Western Slavonic and Celtic {{{LIAR!}}} names (Askol'd, Witold, Bernard etc.) It's well known that the Balts never invited any 'Varangians', and in language and culture were always very close to the Slavs...
Okay, if the name Oleg (Vol'ga) is Russian, how do we fit this with Tatishchev's assertion of the Urman ("Norman") origin of Oleg Veshchiy? This information is not confirmed in other sources. But that is not even the point. The name "Norman" simply means "Northerner" {{{but only in a Germanic language!}}}... Initially it was not an ethnonym, but a collective term for all dwelling in Northern Europe. There is some proof that all northern Europeans were named 'Normans' in the early middle ages, whether Scandinavians or Slavs... {{{But we're not allowed to SEE this 'proof', apparently! :P}}}
Obviously, there are no analogues for the name Oleg in Scandinavia, but plenty among the Slavs and Balts. THat is not so for the name Igor. In ancient times it was pronounced with a nasal sound (Inger, Ingor', Ingvar'), later lost among the Slavs. It is well known that the Scandinavian peoples have a multitude of similar names: Ingvar (an exact coincidence!), Inge, Ingemar, Ingeborg and so on. But this doesn't necessarily mean that the name Igor' was brought to Rus' by the Vikings, and can not serve as proof of the Scandinavian origin of Knyaz Igor', ruling Kiev 912-944. The fact is that names of this type were well known not only among the Scandinavians and Germanics, but also among the Celts {{{AGAIN "Celts", and again with no example! What a fool!}}} ... They are recorded also among the Slavs, moreover the Southern Slavs, for whom "Norman" links can not be claimed. S. Gedeonov drew attention to Knyaz Ingo, ruling Khorutania (modern Croatia) in 803. He can hardly have come from Sweden! {{{No, but could easily have been a descendant of various Gepids, Lombards and whatnot who lived in the area - even some Angles were around not too long before! Is this Ingo the ONLY Slavonic example this fool can find? Very poor...}}}
{{{I've looked at my maps. Where is this place, I couldn't find it.}}}
I'm starting to realize that there could be little point to discuss such serious questions with you,as you don't eveb bother to follow the thread. I've already pointed out that Slavic Rerik is now German Mecklenburg. You can locate Mecklenburg on your maps, I hope?
Osweo
03-09-2009, 09:52 PM
I'm starting to realize that there could be little point to discuss such serious questions with you,as you don't eveb bother to follow the thread. I've already pointed out that Slavic Rerik is now German Mecklenburg. You can locate Mecklenburg on your maps, I hope?
Mecklenburg is a town, Mecklenburg-Schwerin and -Strelitz were principalities in the Kaiserreich, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern is a 'Land' in the current Federal Republic. That's not EXACT enough for me. I looked at my maps of 'East Germany' from the time of the Polabian Slavs, and the place Rerik wasn't thought significant enough by the historians who made them to include it (unlike Retra and Prizlawa, Kessin and Wolgast etc.) so we can already accuse your cited author of exaggeration (yet again!).
I went on Wiki, and found that there was such a place on the Baltic coast:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reric
Reric or Rerik was one of the Viking Age multi-ethnic[1] Slavic-Scandinavian[2] emporia on the southern coast of the Baltic Sea,[1] located near Wismar in the present-day German state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern[3] Reric was built around 700,[4] when Slavs of the Obodrite tribe settled the region.[5] At the turn of the 9th century, the citizens of Reric allied with Charlemagne, who used the port as part of a strategic trade route[1] that would avoid areas of Saxon and Danish control.[6] It was destroyed in 808 AD by the Viking king Gudfred, whereupon the tradespeople were reportedly moved by the king to the Viking emporium of Hedeby (also Haithabu) near modern Schleswig.[3][1]
Hehe, the place was as Norse as it was Obodrite! :tongue:thumb001:
Anyway, the Author was desperate to find Slavonic examples of such a name and COULDN'T find one for a personal name! :rolleyes2: He desperately then seized on this PLACE-name, never mind the fact that it was in one of the less Slavonicised areas. It's highly likely that the settlement's name comes from an older Germanic one, Slavonicised a little in the Eighth Century. Above all, he makes no attempt to etymologise the name (it could have a simple expalanation in Western Slavonic like, who knows?, "fisherman's shed" or the like - and that wouldn't help the argument for Ryurik as iskonny Slavyanin!
The most important thing to realise from my translation is that the Author is VERY careless with facts. Not a good sign...
Anyway, the Author was desperate to find Slavonic examples of such a name and COULDN'T find one for a personal name!
YOU are desperate, not the author.
Какое отношение имеет имя основателя русской династии к племенному названию "ререг" (сокол) и городу Рерику? С. Гедеонов обратил внимание на одну из скандинавских саг, в которой сообщается о войне норманнов с "герцогом Рериком" около 810 г. В другой саге некий конунг прославлялся за победу над вендским соколом... Очевидно, что имелись в виду события войны с вендами-ободритами; "герцог Рерик" в таком случае и есть Дражко или Годослав. Историк предположил, что "Рерик" (Рюрик) это не собственное имя, а родовое прозвище правящей династии варягов-ободритов; его могли носить все ее представители47. Интересно, что после разгрома 808 г. и пресечения династии город Рерик (совр. Мекленбург) сменил название...
Скорее всего, то имя, под которым вошел в русскую историю основатель новгородской династии Рюрик, сын Умилы и Годослава, было на самом деле его фамильным прозвищем, связанным с этническим символом, тотемом и означало просто: "Сокол". "Соколиная" символика в 10-13 вв. очень активно использовалась русской княжеской династией.48 Интересно, что имя Рюрик не получило в России распространения, хотя другие имена первых князей Олег, Ольга, Игорь, Владимир всегда были популярны и остались такими и сейчас. Скорее всего, память о том, что Рюрик это не местное имя, и даже не столько имя, сколько "фамилия", не изгладилась... Но это доказывает, между прочим, что другие имена первых русских князей (Олег, Игорь...) были полностью свои.
Rurik - Reric = Falcon
Do you know WHAT is this:
http://newzz.in.ua/uploads/posts/2009-02/1233960371_gerbua_2.gif
http://newzz.in.ua/histori/1148827076-istorija-gerba-ukrainy.html
Creeping Death
03-09-2009, 11:40 PM
The name Rus' and the first Russian state is known in Middle Dnieper long before any Scandinavians made it there.
Rus that means "Land of the Reds" because they predominantly were redheaded, I believe they were of Scythian extraction the Rus.
Osweo
03-10-2009, 12:10 AM
YOU are desperate, not the author.
Can you refute the fact that he made several STUPID mistakes in the short extract you provided? This damages his credibility.
Rurik doesn't look like a Slavonic name, end of story. To persuade me otherwise, I need to see a thorough etymology of the name with cognates for its elements in Slavonic languages.
Какое отношение имеет имя основателя русской династии к племенному названию "ререг" (сокол) и городу Рерику? С. Гедеонов обратил внимание на одну из скандинавских саг, в которой сообщается о войне норманнов с "герцогом Рериком" около 810 г.
This sort of statement is USELESS. Where did Gedeonov hear this 'saga'? Why is he using a Norse term for it? Is this a skazka, a bylina, or what?!? He gives no reference. He doesn't tell which Slavonic people this story was found among, or when it was recorded.
For all I know, it could have been recorded in Macedonia in the 1890s. It is therefore nigh on impossible to link the name with one recorded in Kiev in the 1100s.
I haven't got round to reading about your Dnepr Rus' yet, but I hope that THERE will be some actual quotes from the texts of named contemporary Byzantine or Arab authors... I doubt it though. I'll probably just get more and more of this pointless conjecture, with a methodology based on careless use of coincidence and refusal to employ sound linguistic analysis.
В другой саге
"In another saga"... WHAT saga?!?!? Where, who, when?!?!?!? :rolleyes2:
некий конунг прославлялся за победу над вендским соколом... Очевидно, что имелись в виду события войны с вендами-ободритами; "герцог Рерик" в таком случае и есть Дражко или Годослав. Историк предположил, что "Рерик" (Рюрик) это не собственное имя, а родовое прозвище правящей династии варягов-ободритов; его могли носить все ее представители47. Интересно, что после разгрома 808 г. и пресечения династии город Рерик (совр. Мекленбург) сменил название...
This is actually a fascinating proposal, but needs to be much better worked out than this.
And yet it still wouldn't explain the term 'Rus'' or why Scandinavian names are so common in the ruling class.
Honestly, you should be far more careful reading about these linguistic connections. I spent a recent holiday in a village called Rusland. My grandmother was born in Ireland near a village called Culrush, and Cloneyross. None of these places have ANYTHING to do with Russia, Rus', or Rossiya, yet sound the same. Such coincidences are worthless, without examination of the linguistics and history of each case.
Скорее всего, то имя, под которым вошел в русскую историю основатель новгородской династии Рюрик, сын Умилы и Годослава, было на самом деле его фамильным прозвищем, связанным с этническим символом, тотемом и означало просто: "Сокол". "Соколиная" символика в 10-13 вв. очень активно использовалась русской княжеской династией.48
Examples? And just about every nation who has hawks in its territory uses this as a symbol at some point!
Интересно, что имя Рюрик не получило в России распространения, хотя другие имена первых князей Олег, Ольга, Игорь,
Aye, it is interesting.
But why is it the case? There actually WERE other Ryuriks later in the Ryurikid family tree. One of the last princes of Kiev, actually.
Why did the name never spread? - simply because it lacked Christian associations. This is exactly why plenty of Slavonic names were also lost, so it should hardly surprise us that not all norse derived names survived to modern times. This does NOT prove Ryurik to be a title or surname or whatever.
Владимир всегда были популярны и остались такими и сейчас.
Of course, one of its bearers just happened to CHRISTEN the country, and be Ravnoapostol - the 'Equal of the Apostles'! Not something a pop at a baptism ceremony was likely to object to.
Ryurik was too 'pagan', and its last famous bearer suffered bad luck. It went out of fashion. Or perhaps nobody dared to be so presumptious to name a son after such a prestigious figure, especially if they were not of sufficient rank. One can think of many reasons why any name wwent out of circulation.
Скорее всего, память о том, что Рюрик это не местное имя, и даже не столько имя, сколько "фамилия", не изгладилась...
Then why did the Chroniclers not SAY SO!?
Но это доказывает, между прочим, что другие имена первых русских князей (Олег, Игорь...) были полностью свои.
There is no logic in that statement whatsoever.
Rurik - Reric = Falcon
I have seen NO evidence that 'Reric' translates as 'falcon'. Just some reported suggestions in folk tales whose origins have not been examined at all. I need to see linguistic analysis, invoking Indoeuropean roots and demonstrating how the name developed into Common Slavonic, and thence into Russian (or whatever other language these 'sagas' were recorded in).
IF Reric was a term for falcon, I have seen NO evidence to link it with the Prince of Novgorod.
NOR have I seen any explanation for the odd distortion of vowels between the two words for whom a direct link is claimed.
Do you know WHAT is this:
http://newzz.in.ua/uploads/posts/2009-02/1233960371_gerbua_2.gif
http://newzz.in.ua/histori/1148827076-istorija-gerba-ukrainy.html
Yep, I do. It is an obscure symbol, perhaps found on Ancient Russian stamps (but nobody ever seems able to show a PHOTO of the originals!), and very popular among Ukrainian nationalists. Its popularity is due to Gruschevsky (as indicated in your link, Xopc), who was the worst of fanatics, hated Russians, and wrote appallingly fantastical 'history' books. I'm very surprised you, as a GREAT RUSSIAN should bring this up!
As the link itself says, it is not associated with Ryurik, but with his descendants. The explanation of it as a 'hawk' is purely hypothetical.
Rus that means "Land of the Reds" because they predominantly were redheaded, I believe they were of Scythian extraction the Rus.
Eeee, that's shockingly simplistic, BF! :eek: And probably downright wrong!
I favour the hypothesis that invokes a word for Norsemen that the Eastern Slavs heard from their Finnic neighbours. Ruotsi, I believe it is in modern Finnish. To make a placename or ethnonym from the Russian adjective 'Rusiy' which means 'chestnut coloured (hair)' wouldn't regularly give a monosyllable like Rus'.
And the Scythians were long gone by the time the name 'Rus'' enters the historical record.
Osweo
03-13-2009, 12:43 AM
Oswiu.
I read some of Dolukhaovs ”Early Slavs” a while ago and I am thinking of buying it now. If you know of it, do you think it is good? Or would you recommend some other English langue work on pre-Christian Russia?
Sorry Olvik - I did write in a rep about this, but you must have missed it.
I don't know this book, and by no means profess an encyclopaedic knowledge of the bibliography on these questions. I don't actually read that much about Russia in English, either! I'd recommend Rybakov's "Paganism of the Ancient Slavs" but I don't know if a translation exists. I've often thought about translating him and Gumilyov myself, actuallly, but have always been sidetracked by my personal life!
As irritating and ideologically suspect as Mariya Gimbutas is, you could do worse than to read her 'Slavs'.
Of course I would have asked Hors the same question, but I guess you, Hors don’t read English languish for Russian history. And why should you.
Osweo
03-13-2009, 01:13 AM
Кроме династийных имен, из дохристианского периода истории Руси известны только имена княжеских дружинников, зафиксированные в договорах Олега и Игоря с Византией. Из списка этих имен значительная часть легко объясняется из иранских языков, но немаловажно и то, что не меньшее количество имен имеет "кельтское" объяснение.27
To paraphrase; before Christianity, we don't have many names recorded for Russians, only of the Princes and their henchmen, many of these are Iranic and Celtic... :coffee:
What rot! 'Celtic'! I don't doubt that a few Sarmatians were still around, but doubt whether they kept their language so late. But Celts... :loco: Why does everyone want to be a Celt?!? It's pathetic.
Среди немногочисленных оставшихся легко выделяются имена чудского (финского) происхождения, а также просто имена-"этнонимы": Ятвяг (видимо, носитель его был выходцем из балтского племени ятвагов) и [b]Свень (швед!). Как отмечает А. Г. Кузьмин, само имя "Швед" в отношении высокопоставленного дружинника указывает на то, что в сравнительно моноэтнической элите его положение было заметным, выделяющимся. Видимо, во времена Олега и Игоря скандинавы в великокняжеской дружине были так редки, что назывались просто по имени своего народа...
"Some names were just ethnonyms, like Sven, meaning Swede. Kuzmin reckons that Scandinavians were so rare, that they were just addressed by their folkname"
That is just hilarious! England even had a KING SWEYN at one point, and there were THOUSANDS of Norsemen here! :eek:
What does she (Catherine the Great) have to do with it?
She sanctioned the suppression of Miller's normanist history.
The Normanist theory is dated back to first years of the Russian Academy of Sciences, founded by Peter the Great
Nope, it dates to the Chronicler Nestor, working in the monastery in Kiev in the 12th Century. A superficial reading of his work gives the basis of the Normanist view. More care should be taken, obvioously, as Nestor wrote for his political masters, but the fact remains that he couldn't have got away with writing pure fantasy, at a time so close to that he wrote about.
Of course I would have asked Hors the same question, but I guess you, Hors don’t read English languish for Russian history.
Hors doesn't seem to read 'real' history at all... :tongue
Nope, it dates to the Chronicler Nestor, working in the monastery in Kiev in the 12th Century. A superficial reading of his work gives the basis of the Normanist view. More care should be taken, obvioously, as Nestor wrote for his political masters, but the fact remains that he couldn't have got away with writing pure fantasy, at a time so close to that he wrote about.
Ok. But it also gives the basis for the anti-Normanist view. Don't forget that OFFICIALLY (for example, according to Ivan the Terrible), before Miller vs Lomonosov, the Rurikids were considered to be descended from a prince of Prussia (that's Rurik).
I'd like to sum it all up.
There are several main theories regarding origin of Rurik and his name. None could be refuted by professionals, not speaking about us at TAF, and all I can do is to point it out to those who believe they're right and others are wrong, regarding origins of Rurik. The truth is never be established, as the evidence is scarce and Rurik is no more than a legend, if not a fairy tale.
As for the rest, that's the origin of the first Russian state, we've got enough hard SCIENTIFIC data to establish the fact that it existed long before any Scandinavians made it to Middle Dnieper, and that at no moment in time Scandinavians were conquerors in Russia.
Osweo
03-13-2009, 06:37 PM
Ok. But it also gives the basis for the anti-Normanist view.
Without Nestor's chronicle, there'd be little exact material to build a Normanist school, but there would still be a vast amount of hints and indicators of major Scandinavian influence in Eastern Slavdom at this period. Loan words, borrowed names, and hints in Greek and Scandinavian sources would have forced historians to make at least some proposal to explain them.
Nestor doesn't give the basis for antiNormanism, he just gives materials that can be used by either side. To my mind, at least (and I am perfectly neutral in the question, with no hatred of Germans or Norsemen) the 'Normanists' use the material far more sensibly. I put 'Normanist' in inverted commas because I can't believe that the quacks have become so influential as to label the mainstream as though it were just one possible interpretation! To prove their case, the antiNormanists are always forced into the unlikeliest of linguistic somersaults.
Don't forget that OFFICIALLY (for example, according to Ivan the Terrible), before Miller vs Lomonosov, the Rurikids were considered to be descended from a prince of Prussia (that's Rurik).
Hehe, it doesn't effect Normanism one way or the other, but Ivan's official version had it that the Rus were descended from a brother of Augustus Caesar! :p But who'd argue with Ioann Vasilievich? :eek::D
I'd like to sum it all up.
There are several main theories regarding origin of Rurik and his name. None could be refuted by professionals, not speaking about us at TAF, and all I can do is to point it out to those who believe they're right and others are wrong, regarding origins of Rurik. The truth is never be established, as the evidence is scarce and Rurik is no more than a legend, if not a fairy tale.
Alright, but I do think that educated people can comment on the logical processes and motivations of those who argue for either position.
Linguistics can say many definite unquestionable things too, to set the parameters of historical conjecture. I strongly suspect that Rarog cannot become Ryurik in Russian.
As for the rest, that's the origin of the first Russian state, we've got enough hard SCIENTIFIC data to establish the fact that it existed long before any Scandinavians made it to Middle Dnieper, and that at no moment in time Scandinavians were conquerors in Russia.
What do you mean by a Russian state, though?
An Empire that included all Eastern Slavonic tribes seems only to have been achieved by the Ryurikoviches (a few generations after Ryurik, and by which time the dynasty seems largely Slavonicised in speech and identity), do you agree?
Prior to this, 'Russia' (though not called by that term yet) was a land of several Slavonic tribes, with state structures, trade networks and urban centres all of their own devising. Norse sagas speak of the region as the Land Of Cities. Thus, we don't have to deny the preScandinavian Slavs the ability to do these things.
The Ryurikids seem to have come along and smashed the old ruling class (as the Normans did to the English). This may even have played a role in the subsequent Christianisation (the foreign descended rulers having less personal attachment to the ancient culture and religion of their subjects).
A question remains as to whether or not the word Rus' was known in these lands prior to Norse penetration. I believe not. I have heard no decent etymology of the word from a Slavonic origin.
AntiNormanists like to cite the Iranian languages of the Alans and Sarmatians, but provide suspect linguistic detail in their argument. Much talk is made of the Roxolani (but had they disappeared from history centuries before the coalescence of a Russian state?), but the Greek name we know them under seems to be a distortion of an original Roksh Alan - 'shining Alans' or something like that. I can't speak with FULL certainty on this, but have seen no well argued refutation of it from an Anti Normanist.
I've had trouble finding accounts of the smaller Dneprovian Rus' that were not written by antiNormanists, so am very suspicious of what I've read on its nature and even existence.
I've had trouble finding accounts of the smaller Dneprovian Rus' that were not written by antiNormanists, so am very suspicious of what I've read on its nature and even existence.
LMAO
Anyone who is writing about the pre-Rurik Rus is anti-Normanist by definition :D :D :D
RoyBatty
03-14-2009, 12:35 PM
because of more unfortunate recent events involving our naughty German cousins, who are ever dranging to the Ost, for some odd, frequently masochistic, reason...
In more recent times Plan Ost has unfortunately been adopted by "The West" (USA), the core of the EU (Germany and France) and the UK. Time and alliances may have changed but the quest for global domination and expansionism by certain groups (HATO in particular) remains.
The elites will never stop wanting to rob and plunder what is potentially up for grabs so the rest of us will have to make do and hang on for the rough ride.
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