America vs. China: Whose side are you on?

[Joe McCarthy]

Recently economist and former Reagan administration official Paul Craig Roberts warned that war could erupt between the US and China over US intervention in Libya, etc. Assuming war breaks out, who should win?

[Psychonaut]

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/1011/there-can-be-peacock-one-highlander-demotivational-poster-1289765548.jpg

inb4 a certain Dutchman welcomes his new Chinese overlords...

[Joe McCarthy]

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/1011/there-can-be-peacock-one-highlander-demotivational-poster-1289765548.jpg

inb4 a certain Dutchman welcomes his new Chinese overlords... Yeah, we already know where he stands, but I have a feeling this poll may get more non-votes than votes, if you get my drift...

[The Ripper]

It should be a Pyrrhic victory that would send both powers plummeting out of the way of a re-emerging European Bloc, ready to claim its rightful place as belly button of the world. :D

[Oreka Bailoak]

It should be a Pyrrhic victory that would send both powers plummeting out of the way of a re-emerging European Bloc, ready to claim its rightful place as belly button of the world.
Economically if the US and China both fall then Europe will be weakened through less demand for European products and less supply of US/Chinese products.

Economics is not a zero-sum game. When one country benefits the others do as well.

It's like a pie- if you take China and US out that doesn't mean that other countries get bigger pieces of the pie- instead it means that the entire pie shrinks.

There isn't going to be a war between the US and China- it just wouldn't be economically beneficial to either side. China is content with its growth and growing influence around the world.

And if there was a war, I don't see a point in sacrificing my life for a country that wouldn't appreciate it. I have more important things to do in life regardless of who controls McDonalds, Wallmart and Coca-cola.

[The Ripper]

Economically if the US and China both fall then Europe will be weakened through less demand for European products and less supply of US/Chinese products.

Economics is not a zero-sum game. When one country benefits the others do as well.

It's like a pie- if you take China and US out that doesn't mean that other countries get bigger pieces of the pie- instead it means that the entire pie shrinks.

There isn't going to be a war between the US and China- it just wouldn't be economically beneficial to either side. China is content with its growth and growing influence around the world.

This is just another America, Fuck Yeah! -thread, where Joe can tell us unashamed anti-Americans how American cultural marxism and economic imperialism will save European civilization from the Yellow Peril. ;)

[Oreka Bailoak]

unashamed anti-Americans
How are you anti-american? Do you mean that you don't like our corporations? Or you don't like capitalism? This is just such a general word and I don't know what you mean.


how American cultural marxism and economic imperialism will save European civilization from the Yellow Peril.
Cultural marxism is a bad thing obviously. But I don't see how it can be blamed on America for European Cultural Marxism. If your country doesn't like it then do no allow it into your society. It seems to me that most Europeans are favorable or indifferent to cultural marxism than those like me and you who hate it- which is why the problem exists.

Economic imperialism. What do you mean by that word? You mean McDonalds and Wallmart? Actually those companies are cutting costs more than other companies and benefiting the consumers creating a social benefit (the small amount of money people save totals up into a huge number that society benefits by). If you don't certain companies and want to take them out of society then you will increase inefficiency and hurt the consumer. Once you pull out this American company, this German company, this company and that company, and a few more then the damage becomes very large to the average consumer. The cost of living will increase, wages will decrease, etc. etc. This "invisible hand" example exists in capitalism (once anti-trust/anti-monopoly laws have been passed). And this is why American incomes (and incomes in countries that allow corporations) are higher than most other countries that try to command their economies.

[Joe McCarthy]

It should be a Pyrrhic victory that would send both powers plummeting out of the way of a re-emerging European Bloc, ready to claim its rightful place as belly button of the world. :D Ahhh, a Machiavellian after my own heart (though Machiavelli actually thought in terms that are realistic). Should war erupt over this Middle East business France and Britain are sure to be involved on the US side, as well as other European states, including possibly your own. Some will even send troops.

[Arne]

At least China didn´t acted as an Invader, Usa does it various uncounted Times,
Korea,Japan,Vietnam,Afghanistan,Irak,Germany,yugos lavia...
The way how Americans are patriots let them often join the army and to die for Big Companies requesting OIL.
That´s the Opinion why we here think not too good of americans.

[Barreldriver]

I would support the USA naturally because I don't want to see a Chinese army running rampant throughout my home town if ground battles make it to US soil. As much as I disagree with a lot that the USA has done and has been founded on I have to look out for the interest of my homestead and my family and in order to do so I cannot show any support for the Chinese if a war breaks out.

[Troll's Puzzle]

definitely China,
China represents all what used to be great in Europe : monoethnic/monoculture, dirgisme, strong manufacturing, strong research, strong 'asperational' class in education & culture (every time i go to see some piece of classical music on youtube it's always being played by some 12 year old asian machine, white kidz are to busy rapping), strong leadership which eschews party poltiking BS, and so on and on

wheras amerikuh and american 'culture' is everything that is destroying us :thumb down

in a 'fight' i would support China in the hope they might fund us to help ''topple' the scum on top here ;)

[Oreka Bailoak]

At least China didn´t acted as an Invader, Usa does it various uncounted Times,
Korea,Japan,Vietnam,Afghanistan,Irak,Germany,yugos lavia...
China sent 1,000,000 troops into the Korean War to invade South Korea ending up with over 500,000 Chinese causalities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

China also invaded Vietnam because of boarder disputes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War

Also they attacked India.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War


The way how Americans are patriots let them often join the army and to die for Big Companies requesting OIL.
You can't make this case for Afghanistan. I also don't believe Iraq was for oil, though I'm sure it made it easier for us to invade because the war cost was expected to be supplied through that and Iraq was expected to make a fast comeback because of oil, thus making the option of war much lower threshold when Saddam kicked out weapons inspectors and violated 11 UN treaties- but let's not get into that.


That´s the Opinion why we here think not too good of americans.

I'm not surprised. I think VERY highly of the German people.

[Joe McCarthy]

I'm wondering if I can get this thread title changed to 'What the European fringe thinks of America'. I think we'd get a better showing from people in Manilla and Harare. I do appreciate the fact that people are telling us just how much they hate us though. By all means, keep it up.

[Murphy]

The capitalist-materialist driven atheistic regime responsible for thousands upon thousands of dead babies vs the communist-materialist atheistic regime responsible for thousands upon thousands of dead babies..

Sure is a hard one.

[Eldritch]

This is just another America, Fuck Yeah! -thread, where Joe can tell us unashamed anti-Americans how American cultural marxism and economic imperialism will save European civilization from the Yellow Peril. ;)

Or rather how it won't, despite America's best efforts.


I'm wondering if I can get this thread title changed to 'What the European fringe thinks of America'. I think we'd get a better showing from people in Manilla and Harare. I do appreciate the fact that people are telling us just how much they hate us though. By all means, keep it up.

No, but I'll change it to "what the American fringe thinks of Europe", if you want me to, since this is what this thread is really about.

[The Lawspeaker]

Laat ze elkaar maar afmaken. Het is mijn oorlog niet.

[Lábaru]

Guys, China is our worst nightmare, and there will be no way to stop the fuckings chinese.

[Oreka Bailoak]

China represents all what used to be great in Europe
This is very true. But mainly on a personal level and not entirely from a governmental level (for example their media is much more inline with conservative family values like our great European societies were. But their government still has too much communist structure left in bureaucracy- not in the economic/public sector though).


in a 'fight' i would support China in the hope they might fund us to help ''topple' the scum on top here
China doesn't care that much about European culture and European peoples. China is extremely isolationist in world politics. To think they would even slightly support a strong European preservationist political party is fanciful imagination.

Look at Chinas responses to Tibet, the Gaza War, the 2008 South Ossetia war or even today in Libya. China is all about keeping the status-quo.

[Joe McCarthy]

The only thing fringe about me are my racial views, Eldritch, and they partially explain why I'm pro-European. My views on foreign policy, for example, put me firmly in the stead of American realist conservatives - a mainstream, center-right position. Beyond that, I'm well acquainted with the attitudes of Europeans toward America, which is why I used 'fringe' above. The stuff we're seeing here (and will no doubt continue to see, much to my immense amusement) does not represent the views of average Europeans. It's representative of a sort of red-brown synthesis that has developed since 9-11 that is barely present even in nationalist parties (the successful ones, anyway). As I'm a financial supporter of European nationalist groups, I know my Europeans, believe you me.

[rustyshiv]

The capitalist-materialist driven atheistic regime responsible for thousands upon thousands of dead babies vs the communist-materialist atheistic regime responsible for thousands upon thousands of dead babies..

Sure is a hard one.

Only a thousand, how about a billion or trillion. Did Americans take two of every animal and sacrifice them on a alter. Tell if you stand in a dark room in front of a mirror and chant America 5 times does an evil Uncle Sam with a bloody hook for a hand appear behind you.

I'm guessing you have proof to these claims(seeing how Europeans have never ever killed civilians, as they piss wine and shit rainbows apparently)

[Troll's Puzzle]

China doesn't care that much about European culture and European peoples. China is extremely isolationist in world politics. To think they would even slightly support a strong European preservationist political party is fanciful imagination.

it's funny how into certain aspects of 'classical' western civilisation asians including Chinese are, though, especially since they are climbing and we aren't that interested in it anymore (more interested in the cultural products of judaeo-africano-hispano-amerikah).
More than half of classical recordings I buy or watch on the internet are by some asian 'prodigy' or something. I lived next door to one chinise family with their toddler who was constantly practicing the piano at his parents behest. Let's not forget the 'tiger mom's' standing over her daughter making her practice for hours too.
I dunno what kind of 'interest' in european culture that shows, i just find it interesting and wanted to blabber about it.

more to the point: I don't expect China to have a real, heartfelt support for 'european preservation'. I would expect, though, in a 'china vs the west' hor-or-cold "fight", they might be keen to aid groups which would destabilise 'the west', which would include nationalist groups, so, they might like to support them to stir it up a bit, just like USSR used to support certain groups to annoy america and america supported and supports groups when they needed to even though they might not be 'pro american' (like the Mujhadeen and Saddam Hussein for instance!)

it's just the way things are and we could benefit from it IMO

also i'm not sure how 'isolationist' china is, it's just not as 'noisy' about its game playing as the j00SA - at least not at the moment ;)


Look at Chinas responses to Tibet, the Gaza War, the 2008 South Ossetia war or even today in Libya. China is all about keeping the status-quo.

only where it favours China, obv.
not when it doesn't, obv. (as in the scenario preposed by the thread)

[Curtis24]

America's ultimately, since Im' not sure having an East Asian culture rule the world would be in our interest...

[Murphy]

Only a thousand, how about a billion or trillion. Did Americans take two of every animal and sacrifice them on a alter. Tell if you stand in a dark room in front of a mirror and chant America 5 times does an evil Uncle Sam with a bloody hook for a hand appear behind you.

I'm guessing you have proof to these claims(seeing how Europeans have never ever killed civilians, as they piss wine and shit rainbows apparently)

What on earth are you babbling about?

[Joe McCarthy]

Oreka, this isn't Manchu China. The Chinese are actively investing and doing business all over the world, and are sending people along with it. There are already around a million of them in Africa and one Chinese strategist wants to eventually settle 300 million more. In addition economic dependence is not a magic bullet to prevent war, even if it helps. Much the same trade dependence existed between Britain and Germany prior to the Great War...

[Albion]

I'm not particularly fond of either of them acting as hegemon but if war broke out I'd prefer the European nations to stay neutral but provide some support to America. If it got nasty I'd back America since the world would be a lot worse under China.

[Joe McCarthy]

Incidentally, the stay neutral option was added consciously with the Ottoman siege of Byzantium in mind. Venice was doing business with the Turks and stayed out, and with the exception of an Italian nobleman and a few other token supports, the West stood by and allowed those savages to destroy the old city. Of course, it did them no good in the long run as the Turks marched all the way to Vienna and brutalized the Venetian garrison in Cyprus.

[The Lawspeaker]

I'm not particularly fond of either of them acting as hegemon but if war broke out I'd prefer the European nations to stay neutral but provide some support to America. If it got nasty I'd back America since the world would be a lot worse under China.
No thanks. It would drag us into a war that isn't ours. Surely we can sell weapons to both sides and grow rich together. It worked for the Americans.

[Hess]

Choosing between China and America is like choosing between getting shot in the face or stabbed in the neck.

In a perfect world, I would prefer neither. If it comes down to it, however, who we choose won't make any difference whatsoever, because the end will be quite the same.

[rustyshiv]

What on earth are you babbling about?

Reread "do you have any proof to these claims" Maybe you and your Dutch butt-buddy can figure it out together.

[Murphy]

Reread "do you have any proof to these claims" Maybe you and your Dutch butt-buddy can figure it out together.

In America's case it's called Roe vs Wade.

[Eldritch]

I know my Europeans, believe you me.

I don't.

EDIT:

And by that I mean that I don't really believe that you understand how "Europeans" think, and what they/we are really like. Should you feel tempted to try to convince me otherwise, please restrain yourself as I'm really not interested. Carry on.

[Wyn]

One thing that you can't fail to notice when taking part in these discussions/online communities generally is that American males have absurdly short fuses and are liable to 'get personal' when somebody says something disagreeable about their state. I mean, I see people around here insult the Church, insult England etc. all the time, but I'm pretty certain I've never claimed that Óttar is Civis' butt-buddy, for example.

[SaxonCeorl]

lol at this thread. There's not going to be a war.

[Albion]

No thanks. It would drag us into a war that isn't ours. Surely we can sell weapons to both sides and grow rich together. It worked for the Americans.

Sell high quality weapons to America at a cut price, sell inferior, shoddy weapons to China that are designed to break (that way they'd think they had enough arms when in fact they'd be seriously be lacking decent weapons).
The UK could allow America to extend the runway as Diego Garcia and upgrade the tracking facilities at Accension Island.

You might not want to support America but I'd rather live under white rule than another race.
There's a saying in England and probably elsewhere in the Anglosphere too: Better the enemy you know than the enemy you don't.
I wouldn't go as far as to call America an enemy of course but the point is we know them, we know nothing of the Chinese or their intentions.
The best we can hope for is that China will only be interested in East Asia and developing itself and its economy. At the moment it seems disinterested in the rest of the world apart from making money through trade.

At the worst China could be a security threat with plenty of people to call up for military service. Just think about how Europeans took over much of the world in centuries past - now imagine if China did that!
Imagine China interfering in European affairs and humiliating the countries here as the Europeans (particularly the British) did to China.

To put it frankly I'd rather live under Russian rule than China but all three (China, USA, Russia) are a threat to Europe in terms of power projection (that is they're not a threat at the moment but if they turned nasty we'd know about it).

As I said, America is fairly decent and has some respect for Europeans, Russia never gave a damn so long as it had its influence and we know nothing of how China would treat the rest of the world.
Europe needs to remain co-operative with each other (although this can be achieved without the EU) and we need to concentrate on trade, standards, technology, societal issues and developing some sort of defence pact (pact, not EU Army).
On outside-Europe issues we need to remain as neutral as possible, only getting involved if it will affect us and our allies.

[Black Sun Dimension]

America has a better military and economy.
China has much more manpower.

Manpower is not as relevant as it was before because nowdays you have armament capable of laying waste to large number of people, so China cant really use the main advantage it has over the U.S

[Heretik]

http://flag-metomorphoses.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/USA-flag.jpg

Plain and simple.
I am not a fan of some of the US administration actions but they'd still beat the shit out of China, so, opportunistically I chose the winning side. :D

[Joe McCarthy]

One thing that you can't fail to notice when taking part in these discussions/online communities generally is that American males have absurdly short fuses and are liable to 'get personal' when somebody says something disagreeable about their state. I mean, I see people around here insult the Church, insult England etc. all the time, but I'm pretty certain I've never claimed that Óttar is Civis' butt-buddy, for example. As a rule, Americans on *these* types of forums are far from matching your description. Most of them are ignorant a/o opposed to their nation's policies and often downright self-hating. How many of them here agree with my foreign policy views, for example? If you visit, say, Hannity Forum or similar conservative fora you'll find plenty of patriotic hot heads, but though compared to a reserved Englishman they may seem emotive, I doubt they match various Latins (particularly the Spanish around here) in passion.

[Barreldriver]

For those that are voting in favor of China or posted in this thread in favor of China, do ya'll not realize that if China makes an offensive ground war on the USA many forumites here would be at risk? Would you really with all your heart congratulate China if their military forces struck deep into the residencies of the American participants here?

By voting in favor of China you are basically voting in favor of the potential death of European derived Americans who are interested in cultural preservation.

Just a thought.

[The Lawspeaker]

Why should people in Europe involve themselves in an American-Chinese war ? And no.. they wouldn't even invade America since any Yank can single-handedly defeat the entire Chink Army. At least... well Hollywood says that any Yank teenager can single-handedly defeat an army so we Eurofaggots can rest assured while eating our snails and drinking our wine and still having access to our commie socialised healthcare... or ?

[Barreldriver]

Why should people in Europe involve themselves in an American-Chinese war?

Not saying Europeans have to jump into the fight to save America's ass, saying that those who voted for China's victory and those who made posts which insinuate that they would be sympathetic with the destruction of America at China's hands are basically applauding putting the American participant pool here at risk.


And no.. they wouldn't even invade America since any Yank can single-handedly defeat the entire Chink Army.

China most certainly is capable of invading the USA, they have the sheer number necessary to do so. There's a reason why the Union beat the Confederacy in the War between the states, they could replace each soldier which fell in combat while the South could not, the USA would be in one of those scenarios, China could replace its casualties more often than the USA as it has a much larger population to work with, so invasion could be possible.


At least... well Hollywood says that any Yank teenager can single-handedly defeat an army so we Eurofaggots can rest assured while eating our snails and drinking our wine and still having access to our commie socialised healthcare... or ?

Who's calling anyone a Eurofag? I certainly did not.

[Murphy]

Tristan. Our hero Obama is going to gift them with socialist healthcare soon enough. They're one step closer to being true Europeans now ;).

[The Lawspeaker]

Well well... America is beginning to turn into a civilised country now ?

I have seen Naples.. now I can die in peace.. or ..?

[Saruman]

Can't decide again.:D;)

[The Lawspeaker]

Not saying Europeans have to jump into the fight to save America's ass, saying that those who voted for China's victory and those who made posts which insinuate that they would be sympathetic with the destruction of America at China's hands are basically applauding putting the American participant pool here at risk.
I didn't vote in favour of the Chinese. My feelings are very much the same (and you can see it in various WW2 American propaganda films) as the American feelings were in 1939/1940: it's not our way and we are staying the bloody hell out !




China most certainly is capable of invading the USA, they have the sheer number necessary to do so. There's a reason why the Union beat the Confederacy in the War between the states, they could replace each soldier which fell in combat while the South could not, the USA would be in one of those scenarios, China could replace its casualties more often than the USA as it has a much larger population to work with, so invasion could be possible.
That's not our problem. France 1940 wasn't America's problem. Where was America when Rotterdam got bombed to pieces ? When Coventry got reduced to rubble ? When London or Warsaw was turned into a smouldering crater ?




Who's calling anyone a Eurofag? I certainly did not.
I haven't forgotten about the freedom fries and the hate against my own country or France by FOX. A lot of your countrymen despise us and I see no reason to like your countrymen in return.

[Barreldriver]

I didn't vote in favour of the Chinese. My feelings are very much the same (and you can see it in various WW2 American propaganda films) as the American feelings were in 1939/1940: it's not our way and we are staying the bloody hell out !

Good for you, did I ever twist anyone's arm into saying lets fly on over to America to fend off the Chinese?

No, I did nothing of the sort, I stated my discontent towards that the one individual who voted for China in the poll and those people posting in this thread who are making posts that seem to me to be attempts at justifying a mutual destruction of America and China during a hypothetical conflict (if America goes, then so goes any and all European descending Americans with it, even those sympathetic towards cultural preservation).




That's not our problem. France 1940 wasn't America's problem. Where was America when Rotterdam got bombed to pieces ? When Coventry got reduced to rubble ? When London or Warsaw was turned into a smouldering crater ?

I was simply replying to your statement that China would never invade the USA, I stated that it could because it has the manpower.

I don't care if it's your problem or not, don't expect anyone to come to our aid, I do expect a bit of a degree of respect for the American posters here who would be at risk in such a conflict, casually dismissing their potential deaths as justice for actions taken or not taken in previous wars is complete bullshit.




I haven't forgotten about the freedom fries and the hate against my own country or France by FOX. A lot of your countrymen despise us and I see no reason to like your countrymen in return.

Never had freedom fires, I've had curly fries though.

[Heretik]

For those that are voting in favor of China or posted in this thread in favor of China, do ya'll not realize that if China makes an offensive ground war on the USA many forumites here would be at risk? Would you really with all your heart congratulate China if their military forces struck deep into the residencies of the American participants here?

By voting in favor of China you are basically voting in favor of the potential death of European derived Americans who are interested in cultural preservation.

Just a thought.

I haven't thought like this, maybe if the chinese attacked Arizona only? I could live with that. :dunno: :ranger:

[Oreka Bailoak]

I haven't thought like this, maybe if the chinese attacked Arizona only? I could live with that.

I find it really offensive that you would joke about Chinese declaring war and invading a state of 6,000,000 people and then saying you would be ok with that.

This really shows a lot about who you are as a person.

[Barreldriver]

I find it really offensive that you would joke about Chinese declaring war and invading a state of 6,000,000 people and then saying you would be ok with that.

This really shows a lot about who you are as a person.

Especially since I'm pretty sure there's some good European descending residents in Arizona, my uncle lives there to boot half German other half British Islander with a bit of Iberian (settled in Maryland prior to the revolt, married into the Trimbles).

[The Lawspeaker]

Ach.. the difference between an American and a European is the sense of humour. I remember Phleg's hilarious blitzkrieg jokes. :thumb001:

[Heretik]

I find it really offensive that you would joke about Chinese declaring war and invading a state of 6,000,000 people and then saying you would be ok with that.

This really shows a lot about who you are as a person.

Oh, you must be german with your sense of humour...


Especially since I'm pretty sure there's some good European descending residents in Arizona, my uncle lives there to boot half German other half British Islander with a bit of Iberian (settled in Maryland prior to the revolt, married into the Trimbles).

Libre lives there, it would be worth it. ;) :D

[Odoacer]

Well, I suppose I would have to support my own country.

中華人民共和國萬歲
SECRET CHINESE NINJA!

[The Lawspeaker]

Oh, you must be german with your sense of humour...
Contrary to all the rumours: Germans do have a sense of humour.

[Wyn]

Contrary to all the rumours: Germans do have a sense of humour.

Aye, bad ones. ;)

[Heretik]

Contrary to all the rumours: Germans do have a sense of humour.

I haven't met one yet. :dunno: :D

[The Lawspeaker]

I haven't met one yet. :dunno: :D
Let's wait for Him to come back. :thumb001:

[Heretik]

Phleg? He's just grumpy. :D

[Joe McCarthy]

lol at this thread. There's not going to be a war.

This thread is extremely funny, to be sure, but not because war is impossible...

[Joe McCarthy]

For those that are voting in favor of China or posted in this thread in favor of China, do ya'll not realize that if China makes an offensive ground war on the USA many forumites here would be at risk? Would you really with all your heart congratulate China if their military forces struck deep into the residencies of the American participants here?

By voting in favor of China you are basically voting in favor of the potential death of European derived Americans who are interested in cultural preservation.

Just a thought.

Alas, that you'd even feel compelled to make such a plea on a European preservation forum, of all places, speaks volumes by itself.

As of the 2010 Census there were over 198 million Americans of European extraction, yet it is a point of real consternation whether America is worth supporting over China...

That is when we don't have outright sympathy for China...

This provides some insight into why the white race is in trouble. The 'racists' themselves believe race is far from paramount. It easily takes a backseat to old grudges, stupid ideology, envy, and resentment over past wrongs, most of which are comically imaginary.

[Joe McCarthy]

Choosing between China and America is like choosing between getting shot in the face or stabbed in the neck.

In a perfect world, I would prefer neither. If it comes down to it, however, who we choose won't make any difference whatsoever, because the end will be quite the same.

Erm, no offense, friend, but I'm curious why you're still in my country with this attitude. I understand you came over with your folks, but surely there is a better place to return to? PM me and I'll even send you cash for the ticket back.

[Barreldriver]

Alas, that you'd even feel compelled to make such a plea on a European preservation forum, of all places, speaks volumes by itself.

Indeed it does speak volumes. I might not like how the USA was founded or what it has done in its time, but I would by no means wish the senseless deaths of my neighbors.

[Joe McCarthy]

Tristan. Our hero Obama is going to gift them with socialist healthcare soon enough. They're one step closer to being true Europeans now ;).

So becoming more European means Americans should adopt the program of a nigger socialist? This is a joke, correct?

I will gladly concede though that socialists (of all nationalities) usually think like niggers.

[Murphy]

This is a joke, correct?

Of course. Free health care should be provided by the Church, funded by charitable donations from the public. Which are mandatory. Tithing and all that.

[antonio]

As long as they, Chinese, continue to provide us product at irrisory prices, I agree they'll rule the world. They work hard and cheap, then sell us their products and we use them. I can see no problem at all. :D

[Joe McCarthy]

I grant that this is far from scientific but in looking over the poll so far it seems the China and screw 'em both options outscore the US by about 20-3 among European posters (I may be off slightly, but not by much). That would seem to translate to an approval rate of the US of something over 10%, give or take, taking into account extenuating circumstances for certain voters' preferences.

By contrast, let us look at ratings of US influence in various nations conducted in a poll by the BBC last year. They assessed positive and negative attitudes, but we'll concentrate on the positives:

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pipa/pdf/apr10/BBCViews_Apr10_rpt.pdf

Mexico: 13%

Brazil: 35%

Russia: 25%

Turkey: 13%

Egypt: 45%

Nigeria: 64%

Japan: 34%

China: 29%

Pakistan: 9%

I'll give our European friends credit for at least outscoring Pakistan. Though the US may have more to fear from far right radicals in Europe, should they get power, than China, based on this rundown.

[Wyn]

I grant that this is far from scientific


Just a bit...

You touch on something though. It would be interesting to collect the opinions of thousands of supporters of Europe's largest nationalist parties regarding the United States and compare the results.

[Joe McCarthy]

Just a bit...

You touch on something though. It would be interesting to collect the opinions of thousands of supporters of Europe's largest nationalist parties regarding the United States and compare the results (e.g. the views of Spanish nationalists, Italian nationalists, German nationalists etc.).

It would vary radically depending on country, based on my experience. In Germany the nationalists would certainly score MUCH more anti-American than that 29% figure for China. I'd say that'd be the low ebb, though Russian nationalists would score very low as well. The figures in Denmark, the Netherlands, possibly Britain, Poland, Italy, and most other countries would score pretty highly, though it would depend who was polled. If they take in the skinheads, footie hooligans, etc., it'd be rather low.

[The Ripper]

It would vary radically depending on country, based on my experience. In Germany the nationalists would certainly score MUCH more anti-American than that 29% figure for China. I'd say that'd be the low ebb, though Russian nationalists would score very low as well. The figures in Denmark, the Netherlands, possibly Britain, Poland, Italy, and most other countries would score pretty highly, though it would depend who was polled. If they take in the skinheads, footie hooligans, etc., it'd be rather low.

Geert Wilders is not a nationalist. Find me where he calls himself that. Or where he says anything about the Dutch nation and its right to continue its existence.

Anti-Islam =/= nationalist.

[poiuytrewq0987]

China has more manpower than the US meaning China can transport its troops rather quickly and in greater numbers to theatres in the Middle East and Africa neutralizing American presence there. On the other hand, the US does have technology that could impede their advance but not by much. If China can isolate America to its continent then it could be royally screwed in terms of influence and power. Aircraft carriers aren't going to do much if most of Chinese armies have to be beaten on land and that's precisely what America is lacking. Only 100,000 US troops in Afghanistan I believe and China can easily deploy several times that size and the US forces would be just be overwhelmed in face of sheer numerical advantage.

I don't support neither but merely outlining which scenario is more likely.

[Joe McCarthy]

China has more manpower than the US meaning China can transport its troops rather quickly and in greater numbers to theatres in the Middle East and Africa neutralizing American presence there. On the other hand, the US does have technology that could impede their advance but not by much. If China can isolate America to its continent then it could be royally screwed in terms of influence and power. Aircraft carriers aren't going to do much if most of Chinese armies have to be beaten on land and that's precisely what America is lacking. Only 100,000 US troops in Afghanistan I believe and China can easily deploy several times that size and the US forces would be just be overwhelmed in face of sheer numerical advantage.

I don't support neither but merely outlining which scenario is more likely.

As things stand now, there is unlikely to be a ground war, and if there isn't, the US will win easily with air and naval power. Certainly if it occurs off the coast of Libya it'll be a cakewalk. Where China would have a better shot is of course near its own country, as anyone with homefield advantage has, of course, an advantage. But it simply does not have the firepower to compete conventionally by air or sea at present. The US has more naval tonnage than the next thirteen navies combined, and the USAF is even more dominant.

[antonio]

In fact, on a conflict between USA and the rest of the world, excluding, of course, an occupation scenario, I would bet for the States. I guess the distance among them and inmediate followers (Great Britain, Russia, France, China, Germany...), even with technology transference to some of them, had increased massively at last 25-30 years.

[Saruman]

LULZ, things as they stand now? But if speaking about such, currently non-imaginable, conflict then you must take things as they are at that time. Currently China is no match for US, but any war between the 2 is at least 15-20 years away, by then China should become very dangerous, while US will get more diverse, still maintaining military edge.

Carriers USN has are a huge advantage, though China is building several currently so in a few years they will have a proper blue water navy. And their carriers should carry an interesting plane, firstly improved Su-33 copy, then a "silent" Su-33. Also China has developed fast ballistic anti-carrier missiles guided by satellites and potentially very dangerous for USN carriers as confirmed already by senior officials, I think they might be as threatening as Kirovs and Oscars of Russians, so a very serious threat, hence Arleigh Burke DD's are getting upgrades for ballistic missile defense.

[antonio]

I'll give our European friends credit for at least outscoring Pakistan. Though the US may have more to fear from far right radicals in Europe, should they get power, than China, based on this rundown.

My personal contemption about USA power is related with my previous post. I consider bizarre and unbalanced the current distribution of forces. USA is your strongest friend: a good person and nice to be with him...until the day you have a conflict with him. If it serves you as relief: I must confess, beyond friendliness with their citizens , there're some European countries that I feel no sympathy for them, sometimes I dont know exactly why, maybe just economical envy, though, at same time, I ack they deserve their hard earned wealthness as USA deserves its power.:thumb001:

Ps. It's worth to add that USA hegemony would be greatly missed in the case you get tired of our objections and decide to left ours alone with our geostrategical bussiness. It's like modern Pax Romana.

[Joe McCarthy]

LULZ, things as they stand now? But if speaking about such, currently non-imaginable, conflict then you must take things as they are at that time. Currently China is no match for US, but any war between the 2 is at least 15-20 years away, by then China should become very dangerous, while US will get more diverse, still maintaining military edge.

Carriers USN has are a huge advantage, though China is building several currently so in a few years they will have a proper blue water navy. And their carriers should carry an interesting plane, firstly improved Su-33 copy, then a "silent" Su-33. Also China has developed fast ballistic anti-carrier missiles guided by satellites and potentially very dangerous for USN carriers as confirmed already by senior officials, I think they might be as threatening as Kirovs and Oscars of Russians, so a very serious threat, hence Arleigh Burke DD's are getting upgrades for ballistic missile defense.

This whole thread is premised on Roberts' view that war may be imminent due to conflicting geopolitical interests. He also warned of war with Russia, but I didn't want to muddy the waters by including them. Here's the article if you're interested:

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/176960.html

[Joe McCarthy]

Geert Wilders is not a nationalist. Find me where he calls himself that. Or where he says anything about the Dutch nation and its right to continue its existence.

Anti-Islam =/= nationalist.

I'm sure I can find references to both if I look around a bit, but the important point is that despite his anti-racism, he is more successful for preservationist purposes than racist, fringe nationalists as he is getting immigration reduced. What use really are the guys who are ideologically 'pure' (pure in your case would include anti-capitalism, anti-war, anti-US, anti-Semitic a/o anti-Israel, etc) if they are totally irrelevant electorally and can't get anything done?

But then you and I have been around the maypole on this stuff countless times. And I used to be where you are now, more or less.

[Albion]

It easily takes a backseat to old grudges, stupid ideology, envy, and resentment over past wrongs, most of which are comically imaginary.


My thoughts exactly. I'd rather back

America could ask for mercenaries from Europe, that way Europeans who did want to help America fight could sign up. Most Western countries have employed mercenaries at some point, even unofficially during the world wars, its perhaps not trendy anymore to call them that.
People from RoI, the Commonwealth and the Gurkhas from Nepal can still serve effectively as mercenaries in Britain's military.

Many Europeans, especially from the UK would probably join (especially if there was no strings attached, that you didn't have to dedicate years of your life after the war had ended {which puts many people off joining the military I suspect})

[Svanhild]

Recently economist and former Reagan administration official Paul Craig Roberts warned that war could erupt between the US and China over US intervention in Libya, etc.
Maybe you should play a rather actual computer game, Homefront. :wink The scenario: North Korea invades the USA. And you're an average US American civilist being thrown into a war and defending your home.

Uzqx-lDoCr8

[Troll's Puzzle]

Maybe you should play a rather actual computer game, Homefront. :wink The scenario: North Korea invades the USA. And you're an average US American civilist being thrown into a war and defending your home.

can you play as North Korea?
I don't usually play/like those kind of games but if you can, it might be something I could get into :)

[Joe McCarthy]

can you play as North Korea?
I don't usually play/like those kind of games but if you can, it might be something I could get into :)

The queen of trolls. I bow to you.

[The Lawspeaker]

can you play as North Korea?
I don't usually play/like those kind of games but if you can, it might be something I could get into :)
It's always nice to play as the bad guy but in the case of the U.S there actually wouldn't be much of a difference. :D

[Joe McCarthy]

It's always nice to play as the bad guy but in the case of the U.S there actually wouldn't be much of a difference. :D


http://www.clown-ministry.com/images/the_court_jester_danny_kaye.jpg

[Barreldriver]

It's always nice to play as the bad guy but in the case of the U.S there actually wouldn't be much of a difference. :D


And the Dutch are all saints, Dutch East Indies anyone? Your Afghanistan and Iraq eh?

[Joe McCarthy]

And the Dutch are all saints, Dutch East Indies or Indonesia anyone? Your Afghanistan and Iraq eh?

Not that I'm big on bashing European imperialists (in fact, I despise it), but tit for tat and all that...

The first European act of 'Native American' 'genocide' was probably carried out by the Dutch:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavonia_Massacre


The initial strike which he ordered on February 25, 1643 and took place at Communipaw, was a massacre: 129 Dutch soldiers killed 120 Indians, including women and children. Historians differ on whether or not the massacre was Kieft's idea[12][13] Many consider this to be one of the earliest acts of genocide of Native Americans by European settlers in North America and is sometimes referred to as the Pavonia Massacre

[The Lawspeaker]

And the Dutch are all saints, Dutch East Indies anyone? Your Afghanistan and Iraq eh?
That was MANY years ago. America is a criminal state TODAY.

[Joe McCarthy]

That was MANY years ago. America is a criminal state TODAY.


And of course with America out of the way, all will be heavenly bliss with China running things.

[Barreldriver]

That was MANY years ago. America is a criminal state TODAY.


So what, crime is crime no matter when it happened, your own people are not without faults, just remember when one points their finger three point back at oneself. Just giving you a taste of your own medicine, two can play the blame game, fact remains everyone's nation has screwed up one time or another, yours is not excluded.

[Barreldriver]

Not that I'm big on bashing European imperialists (in fact, I despise it), but tit for tat and all that...


Simply pointing out that those overseas are not living in nations without fault.

[Joe McCarthy]

Simply pointing out that those overseas are not living in nations without fault.

Yes, I understand. It's clear that certain of our European friends are determined to create conflict with the United States. We can only hope they remain on the political fringes. The important point, in my view, is not to stoop to the level of left-wing whiners who bemoan 'evil' Euro-imperialism. Unfortunately, when it comes to the US, our Dutch friend does just that.

[Barreldriver]

Seems being an American citizen is akin to being a leper anymore. :rolleyes:

I aughta apologize for all the crimes I never committed and for those I might or might never commit. :coffee:

[Joe McCarthy]

Seems being an American citizen is akin to being a leper anymore. :rolleyes:

I aughta apologize for all the crimes I never committed and for those I might or might never commit. :coffee:

Well, according to that BBC poll I posted earlier we're considerably more popular in the Philippines than in even Britain. That doesn't bode well for Western Civilization.

[Joe McCarthy]

It'd be interesting to see how a poll featuring China vs. Russia would go. I have a hunch the result would be a bit different. :)

[Joe McCarthy]

definitely China,
China represents all what used to be great in Europe : monoethnic/monoculture, dirgisme, strong manufacturing, strong research, strong 'asperational' class in education & culture (every time i go to see some piece of classical music on youtube it's always being played by some 12 year old asian machine, white kidz are to busy rapping), strong leadership which eschews party poltiking BS, and so on and on

wheras amerikuh and american 'culture' is everything that is destroying us :thumb down

in a 'fight' i would support China in the hope they might fund us to help ''topple' the scum on top here ;)

I was looking over this post again, and while it was certainly the most tasteless post on this thread (well, your wanting to role play as North Koreans killing Americans was probably worse), what I bolded brought to mind something I once read from Malcolm X:

http://www.free-researchpapers.com/dbs/a13/hmd16.shtml


“all of us have suffered here, in this country, political oppression, economic exploitation, and social degradation at the hands of ... white [men].... If the white man doesn’t want us to be anti-him, [then] let him stop oppressing and exploiting and degrading us.”

Yes, da man be keepin us down dawg. Though in relations between states the European neo-Nazi adopts the attitude of the nigger and America is 'the man'. This is an attitude they share with Muslims and many other Third Worlders, one might add. ;)

[Bloodeagle]

No thanks. It would drag us into a war that isn't ours. Surely we can sell weapons to both sides and grow rich together. It worked for the Americans.

We would do as my step father did during the Vietnam conflict, as the Chinese were supplying North Vietnam with munitions and supplies. Using our submarines, we would sink every merchant ship that we thought was loaded with supplies, deep into the Chinese Sea.

[Barreldriver]

@Joe, I also would add something to your reply to Troll's Puzzle, there is no "American culture" that I'm aware of, last I checked my ethno-cultural practices were not universal among the United States but rather isolated to the Southern Appalachians. lol So Troll's Puzzle's statement about American 'culture' makes me curious.

I know American capitalism has had some negative side effects but lets remember business is not ethno-cultural heritage among the sane.

[Joe McCarthy]

We would do as my step father did during the Vietnam conflict, as the Chinese were supplying North Vietnam with munitions and supplies. Using our submarines, we would sink every merchant ship that we thought was loaded with supplies, deep into the Chinese Sea.

Interestingly enough, the British were trading with North Vietnam, too, and leading Pentagon brass wanted to intercept their ships.

[Joe McCarthy]

@Joe, I also would add something to your reply to Troll's Puzzle, there is no "American culture" that I'm aware of, last I checked my ethno-cultural practices were not universal among the United States but rather isolated to the Southern Appalachians. lol So Troll's Puzzle's statement about American 'culture' makes me curious.

I know American capitalism has had some negative side effects but lets remember business is not ethno-cultural heritage among the sane.

Well, the only way this extreme 'I hate America' line can sell is if it can be shown that the United States is responsible for Europeans refusing to reproduce and European governments bringing immigrants in. To the extent the US involves itself in such things at all, it would appear it is rather concerned over Islamic growth in Europe, particularly Britain, where my good friend Renwein/Troll's resides. A Wikileaks cable revealed as much.

[Óttar]

How can anyone be Pro-China? Their language is cacophonous, they love portraits of a rat-faced high-culture hating Communist, and sometimes their women's uniform apelike appearance seriously rivals that of black women.

[Albion]

Interestingly enough, the British were trading with North Vietnam, too, and leading Pentagon brass wanted to intercept their ships.

We were? Official or just a few rough merchants?

[Joe McCarthy]

We were? Official or just a few rough merchants?

I'm glad you asked me that. I'm unsure of the extent of the ties. I know Wilson supported the US officially, over strong leftist opposition, and refused to send troops, but just how much trade there was I'll need to look into.

[Cato]

I would not be much of an American if I sided with China or wanted to stay neutral.

[Joe McCarthy]

I would not be much of an American if I sided with China or wanted to stay neutral.

I don't think you'd be much of an Occidental, period...

[Arrow Cross]

Before you vote, remember that inside every Gook, there is an American, trying to get out.

4VHKpGJX29s

[Cato]

I don't think you'd be much of an Occidental, period...

Well, the thing is, many Chinese are very Occidental in their attitudes and outlook. China, Marxist China, is evil.

[Óttar]

I should make clear that while there are many beautiful Chinese women, there are just as many with apelike upturned noses with large nostrils and funny shaped heads.

[Osweo]

There are other Americas apart from Joe's (USA Americas, never mind the others), and it disappoints me that too many feel bound to look at Joe's flag rather than listen to what he says. If a war broke out with China, it would be the fault of the Joes in the USA for treating the world like their chessboard and refusing to accommodate shifting realities. China deserves its place in the world, and shouldn't have its toes stamped on everywhere it turns. Joe isn't America, and Joe's America isn't the West. Joe's America is one of the greatest dangers to the West, and folks need to stop acting all kneejerk about things and look deeper to see this.

[Joe McCarthy]

There are other Americas apart from Joe's (USA Americas, never mind the others), and it disappoints me that too many feel bound to look at Joe's flag rather than listen to what he says. If a war broke out with China, it would be the fault of the Joes in the USA for treating the world like their chessboard and refusing to accommodate shifting realities. China deserves its place in the world, and shouldn't have its toes stamped on everywhere it turns. Joe isn't America, and Joe's America isn't the West. Joe's America is one of the greatest dangers to the West, and folks need to stop acting all kneejerk about things and look deeper to see this. I'm of the mind that accomodating the rise of an Asian Communist hegemon with the potential to be 3-4 times stronger than the US is not a good idea. I have a feeling though that if man eating lizards land tomorrow you'll blame the US for provoking them and Ren will ask if they play Bach.

[Raskolnikov]

If China wants to acculturate Hollywood, San Francisco, Silicon Valley, etc, I don't see why I should stand in the way.

[Beorn]

Fuck USA!

Fuck China!

I'm placing my bets on Islam.

[Raskolnikov]

Also, if Osama wants to radiate Hollywood, San Francisco, Silicon Valley, etc, I will not stand in the way.