Split: mutual understandability and the origins of Finnish and Estonian

[Ibericus]

Onko virolaiset ja suomalaiset ymmärtävät toisiaan?

[Äike]

Onko virolaiset ja suomalaiset ymmärtävät toisiaan?

Estonian and Finnish are quite similar, thus I can understand some even without learning it. But we cannot understand each other as well as the Catalans understand the other Spaniards and so on.

My previous sentence in Finnish: "Minun mielestäni 0.5 on liian korkea, nollatoleranssi on parempi."

In Estonian it would be like this: "Minu meelest 0.5 on liiga kõrge, nulltolerants on parem."

As you see, all words in both the Estonian and Finnish sentences were similar to some extent.

[Lahtari]

Estonian and Finnish are quite similar, thus I can understand some even without learning it.

Yes, just make sure not to ask a Finnish child to sit on your lap in Estonian. :D :D

The "false friends" between our languages are legendary..

[Äike]

Yes, just make sure not to ask a Finnish child to sit on your lap in Estonian. :D :D

The "false friends" between our languages are legendary..

I heard a story once that an Estonian store owner, at a rural region, threw out a bunch of Finns from his store for constantly saying "halpa".

"Halpa" means "cheap", but it's too similar to the Estonian word "halb", which means "bad". :p

I have met a lot of Finns who do not visit Estonia that often, but speak quite good Estonian, that's a positive trend.

[Eldritch]

Onko virolaiset ja suomalaiset ymmärtävät toisiaan?

Viro ja suomi eivät ole keskenään välittömästi ymmärrettäviä kieliä, mutta pienellä tutustumisella/opiskelulla kyllä.

[Äike]

Viro ja suomi ivät ole keskenään välittömästi ymmärrettäviä kieliä, mutta pienellä tutustumisella/opiskelulla kyllä.

By your post I get an impression that Estonians understand more Finnish without learning it, than Finns understand Estonian without learning it.

[Eldritch]

By your post I get an impression that Estonians understand more Finnish without learning it, than Finns understand Estonian without learning it.

English translation: Finnish and Estonian aren't immediately mutually understandable languages, but with some habituation and studying they are.

I've heard of the theory/stereotype that Finnish is easier for Estonians to learn, than vice-versa. I have no idea whether it's true or not, but if it is, I'd assume that it's due to Finnish being a somewhat atavistic language, one that's closer to proto-Finnic than Estonian is.

[Äike]

I've heard of the theory/stereotype that Finnish is easier for Estonians to learn, than vice-versa. I have no idea whether it's true or not

It's not true, Finns are just lazier than we are. :p

[Äike]

I've heard of the theory/stereotype that Finnish is easier for Estonians to learn, than vice-versa. I have no idea whether it's true or not, but if it is, I'd assume that it's due to Finnish being a somewhat atavistic language, one that's closer to proto-Finnic than Estonian is.

I forgot to mention this:


The geographic center of the maximum divergence between the languages is located south of the Gulf of Finland. This implies that the Urheimat of the protolanguage was in modern Estonia.


The Finnic languages form a complex dialect continuum with few clear-cut boundaries. A division into two areal groups of four languages is usually used:

* Southern
o (North) Estonian
o Livonian
o South Estonian
o Votic



* Northern
o Finnish
o Ingrian
o Karelian
o Veps

All of these except Votic are centered on a literary standard language.

In the Proto-Finnic period, three original dialects can be reconstructed: an inland dialect (South Estonian); a southwestern dialect (Livonian); and a northern dialect (the rest of the family). The last two can be grouped as a common Coastal group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnic_languages

If the Balts hadn't showed up, then I could go visit Livonia, not Latvia, and speak Estonian with the people understanding me and vice-versa.

[Eldritch]

^ The above is true: the urheimat of the Finnish, Estonian and related languages in in what is today Estonia. But as the Finnic tribes moved north across the Gulf of Finland, to what is today Finland, they reverted to earlier speech patterns. That's what I meant by Finnish being a (somewhat) atavistic language.

[The Ripper]

It's not true, Finns are just lazier than we are. :p

Just more numerous and wealthier. ;)

As for the original question, I'll use myself as an example: I have never studied Estonian as such, I've simply used dictionaries, watched films with subtitles and attempted articles in various publications, and with this irregular practice, I've come to understand Estonian far better than the average Finn. I don't claim to speak it or understand it 100% but I would say I'd understand 75-85% of any given newspaper article.

[Lahtari]

It's not true, Finns are just lazier than we are. :p

No, we just didn't have a chance (or motivation) to watch Estonian TV during the cold wars.. ;)

[Äike]

^ The above is true: the urheimat of the Finnish, Estonian and related languages in in what is today Estonia. But as the Finnic tribes moved north across the Gulf of Finland, to what is today Finland, they reverted to earlier speech patterns. That's what I meant by Finnish being a (somewhat) atavistic language.

This sounds extremely interesting, do you know any articles (in English) about it?

I'd say that the Võro language/South-Estonian dialect resembles proto-Finnic more than Estonian and Finnish.


No, we just didn't have a chance (or motivation) to watch Estonian TV during the cold wars.. ;)

Only Northern-Estonians watched Finnish TV and some Estonians being more familiar with Finnish doesn't make the language automatically "easier" than Estonian or any other Finnic language.

Slightly off-topic, sorry:

I find it cute (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/misc.php?do=ccarc&page=118&cm=781920#781920) that you consider us, the Estonians, to be the "retarded little cousins" of the Finns. :)

[The Ripper]

I'd say that the Võro language/South-Estonian dialect resembles proto-Finnic more than Estonian and Finnish.

Sounds very interesting. Perhaps you can further elaborate?

Also I've come to understand (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=269806&postcount=7) that Finnish is far more archaic. It makes sense, too, seeing as Finnish was more isolated from foreign influences for much longer than Estonia.

[Äike]

Sounds very interesting. Perhaps you can further elaborate?

Not really, as I am from the opposite corner of Estonia. :D

Most Estonians understand Võro/Seto, I guess, but I find it quite difficult to understand.


Also I've come to understand (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=269806&postcount=7) that Finnish is far more archaic. It makes sense, too, seeing as Finnish was more isolated from foreign influences for much longer than Estonia.

Yes indeed, but South-Estonian, especially the Võro/Seto dialect/language is quite different.

[The Ripper]

Not really, as I am from the opposite corner of Estonia. :D

Most Estonians understand Võro/Seto, I guess, but I find it quite difficult to understand.

Then what makes you say it is more akin to proto-Finnic than the others?


Yes indeed, but South-Estonian, especially the Võro/Seto dialect/language is quite different.

Different? Meaning?

[Äike]

Then what makes you say it is more akin to proto-Finnic than the others?

I have heard it spoken and I also listen to songs in the Seto language.

This:

"Võro is a descendant of the old South Estonian tribal language and is the least influenced by Standard Estonian (which is based on Northern Estonian dialects). Võro was once spoken further south and east of historical Võromaa in South Estonian-speaking enclaves Lutsi, Leivu and Kraasna in what is now Latvia and Russia. In addition to Võro, other contemporary variants of South Estonian include the Mulgi, Tartu and Seto language or dialect."

And we know that the proto-Finnic area was in Southern-Estonia.

The Seto dialect of the Võro language is even more archaic. The Seto people were still pagans until the 15th century and lived under Russian rule.


Different? Meaning?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B5ro_language#Differences_among_V.C3.B5ro.2C_ Old_V.C3.B5ro.2C_Estonian_and_Finnish

[Eldritch]

This sounds extremely interesting, do you know any articles (in English) about it?


Unfortunately no. That is one (of the extremely few) things I remember from Kaisa Häkkinen (http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaisa_Häkkinen)'s excruciatingly boring Suomen kielen historia. 1, Suomen kielen äänne- ja muotorakenteen historiallista taustaa.

[Talvi]

Its an old thread but Id like to add that, even if in the beginning words seem totally different, they actually still make sense.

A lot of the times I just see the logic behind how Finnish words are constructed. I think what helps is that Estonian has 2 sets of words "North Estonian" and the older "South Estonian". The Southern ones may be more similar to Finnish, and not very used in everyday life in the North, I still understand them.

For example eläintarha and loomaaed (the zoo). While the words are completely different, and while in Estonian we never use the same compund as in Finnish world still makes sense. Eläin is related to the word elama, elus etc which is alive and tarha is like tara which is a kind of a fence or garden in Estonian. And there are a lot of words like that.

[Pure ja]

Onko virolaiset ja suomalaiset ymmärtävät toisiaan?

Teeme katse :-)

Eestlastele meeldib soomlastele hambasse puhuda, või siis puhuda kärbseid pähe.
Soomlastele meeldib lihtsalt puhuda.

Eestlastele ei meeldi soomlasi ümmardada. :-)
Mõnedele eestlastele ei meeldi olla soomlastele meele järgi.