Ethnic groups DNA results 1000 years ago vs Today

[Peterski]

What do you think, which European populations and ethnic groups have changed the most in terms of their admixture proportions and genetics in general since ca. 900-1000 AD until today? And how did they change? Which did not change much in your opinion?

What if we go back even further to ca. 400-500 AD, before the fall of Rome?

We don't have many Early Medieval samples so far, but we can speculate.

[StevenTylerAerosmith]

What do you think, which European populations and ethnic groups have changed the most in terms of their admixture proportions and genetics in general since ca. 900-1000 AD until today? And how did they change? Which did not change much in your opinion?

What if we go back even further to ca. 400-500 AD, before the fall of Rome?

We don't have many Early Medieval samples so far, but we can speculate.

do you think we'll ever get a lot of samples from all throughout europe for the early, high, and late middle ages?

[Not a Cop]

do you think we'll ever get a lot of samples from all throughout europe for the early, high, and late middle ages?

well there is enough of bones, all you need is a will.

[Peterski]

well there is enough of bones, all you need is a will.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?269729-Poland-under-Mieszko-I-ca-960-992-AD


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmCHW--lJ3Q

^^^
MY ANCESTORS: :D

https://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1471/18/1471182210493.png

[Mingle]

Within Europe, ethnic Bavarians (including Austrians) are probably up there.

Early Medieval Bavarians are way closer to Scandinavians than they are to Austrians: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?239429-Early-Medieval-Bavaria-GEDmatch-results. Modern day Bavarians/Austrians are even closer to Poles and Ukrainians than to North Germans, they've changed a lot.

Based on the results in the link above, it seems as if the early Germanic settlers of South-East Germany didn't have much Slavic influence and that Slavs came later.

[Peterski]

Germans were probably much more Germanic ca. 1000 years ago than today.

I guess they were already mixed with Celts, but not yet with Slavs and Balts.

[alnortedelsur]

I'm sure in the case of Spaniards and Portuguese their DNA hasn't changed much neither from 1000 years ago nor from 2000-4000 years ago.

[Peterski]

SALUTE TO THE WEST ASIAN RACE (with not a drop of East/South Asian blood) !!!: :D

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?267132-%26%2311088%3B%26%2311088%3B%26%2311088%3B%26%2311 088%3B%26%2311088%3B-SALUTE-TO-THE-WEST-ASIAN-RACE-!!!-%26%2311088%3B%26%2311088%3B%26%2311088%3B%26%2311 088%3B%26%2311088%3B&p=5583596&viewfull=1#post5583596

https://i.redd.it/slkof7ekby811.jpg

[rein]

SALUTE TO THE WEST ASIAN RACE (with not a drop of East Asian blood)!: :D

https://i.redd.it/slkof7ekby811.jpg

Sounds violent.

[Peterski]

their DNA hasn't changed much neither from 1000 years ago nor from 2000-4000 years ago.

https://archive-media-0.nyafuu.org/bant/image/1496/88/1496881337984.png

https://i.imgur.com/3RdRVQw.png

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/KranzG1988GeogrDevelopmOfEurLanguages/KrantzGCh7Fig26.jpg

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/KranzG1988GeogrDevelopmOfEurLanguages/KrantzGCh7Fig26.jpg

[Token]

Germans were probably much more Germanic ca. 1000 years ago than today.

I guess they were already mixed with Celts, but not yet with Slavs and Balts.

Depends on which Germans you are talking about. Northwestern Germans are still very similar to early Germanics.

[Token]

Based on the data avaiable for now, Iberians seems to be among the ones that changed the most since early Medieval times.

[Harkonnen]

Well there just came some premilinary results from 12th century Tavastians which apparently were quite different from modern Finns. But not full paper yet.

[Mingle]

Germans were probably much more Germanic ca. 1000 years ago than today.

I guess they were already mixed with Celts, but not yet with Slavs and Balts.I assumed that the reason that Eastern West Germanic people (East Germans, Austro-Bavarians) had so much Slavic autosomal DNA (50%) was because they inherited it from the Pre-Slavic inhabitants of that region. But it seems that there was a large scale Slavic migration to West-Central Europe similar to how there was one to the Balkans. Its just that the ones that migrated to WCE gradually(?) assimilated whereas those in the Balkans didn't, likely cause there was a much lower population density in the Balkans (at least the Western Balkans) when Slavs started migrating there.

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

[Mingle]

Depends on which Germans you are talking about. Northwestern Germans are still very similar to early Germanics.What about Southwest Germans?

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[Token]

What about Southwest Germans?

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Like half-way between Celtic natives and Alemanni settlers.

[Aren]

https://archive-media-0.nyafuu.org/bant/image/1496/88/1496881337984.png

https://i.imgur.com/3RdRVQw.png

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/KranzG1988GeogrDevelopmOfEurLanguages/KrantzGCh7Fig26.jpg

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/KranzG1988GeogrDevelopmOfEurLanguages/KrantzGCh7Fig26.jpg

Peterski I gotta give it to you man, every other post you make is directed towards Germans, trying to trigger them but no one seems to bite hehe ;)

[Smeagol]

Based on the data avaiable for now, Iberians seems to be among the ones that changed the most since early Medieval times.

What did they used to be like?

[Token]

What did they used to be like?

Like Basques.

[Peterski]

I assumed that the reason that Eastern West Germanic people (East Germans, Austro-Bavarians) had so much Slavic autosomal DNA (50%) was because they inherited it from the Pre-Slavic inhabitants of that region. But it seems that there was a large scale Slavic migration to West-Central Europe similar to how there was one to the Balkans. Its just that the ones that migrated to WCE gradually(?) assimilated whereas those in the Balkans didn't, likely cause there was a much lower population density in the Balkans (at least the Western Balkans) when Slavs started migrating there.

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Large scale Slavic migration in the 500s at the time of Fimbulwinter:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?269146-Fimbulwinter-AD-536


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_weather_events_of_535%E2%80%93536

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fimbulwinter

"According to written records and supported by dendrochronology (tree ring) and archaeological evidence, for 12-18 months in AD 536-537, a thick, persistent dust veil or dry fog darkened the skies between Europe and Asia Minor."

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326664963_Exploring_Roman_and_early-medieval_habitation_of_the_Rhine-Meuse_delta_Modelling_large-scale_demographic_changes_and_corresponding_land-use_impact

"A major demographic decline of 78–85% occurred during the late-Roman period (AD 270–450), after which first-millennium population numbers never again reached middle-Roman period levels."

https://www.thoughtco.com/dust-veil-environmental-disaster-in-europe-171628

"Archaeological evidence described by Gräslund and Price shows that Scandinavia might have experienced the worst troubles. Almost 75% of villages were abandoned in parts of Sweden, and areas of southern Norway show a decrease in formal burials—indicating that haste was required in interments—up to 90-95%."

https://www.thoughtco.com/ragnaroek-norse-myth-4150300

"But with the core story confidently dated to the later Iron Age between 550–1000 C.E., archaeologists Graslund and Price (2012) have suggested that Fimbulwinter was a real event. In the 6th century CE, a volcanic eruption left a thick, persistent dry fog in the air throughout Asia Minor and Europe that suppressed and shortened the summer seasons for several years. The episode known as the Dust Veil of 536 is documented in the literature and in physical evidence such as tree rings throughout Scandinavia and in many other places in the world.

Evidence suggests that Scandinavia may have borne the brunt of the Dust Veil effects; in some regions, 75–90 percent of its villages were abandoned. Graslund and Price suggest that Ragnarok's Great Winter is a folk memory of that event, and the final scenes when the sun, earth, gods, and humans are resurrected in a paradisiacal new world may be a reference to what must have seemed the miraculous end of the catastrophe."

It was followed by the Justinian's Plague:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian
Just recently read an article about that, apparently the worst year to be alive !

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/11/why-536-was-worst-year-be-alive

A mysterious fog plunged Europe, the Middle East, and parts of Asia into darkness, day and night—for 18 months. "For the sun gave forth its light without brightness, like the moon, during the whole year," wrote Byzantine historian Procopius. Temperatures in the summer of 536 fell 1.5°C to 2.5°C, initiating the coldest decade in the past 2300 years. Snow fell that summer in China; crops failed; people starved. The Irish chronicles record "a failure of bread from the years 536–539." Then, in 541, bubonic plague struck the Roman port of Pelusium, in Egypt. What came to be called the Plague of Justinian spread rapidly, wiping out one-third to one-half of the population of the eastern Roman Empire and hastening its collapse, McCormick says.

At a workshop at Harvard this week, the team reported that a cataclysmic volcanic eruption in Iceland spewed ash across the Northern Hemisphere early in 536. Two other massive eruptions followed, in 540 and 547.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzNKXbInOiA

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/russia/Slavs700.jpg

^^^
And no, they did not assimilate. In 1100 AD everyone spoke Slavic east of the Elbe (there are some mistakes in this map like East Prussia which should be Baltic and Eastern Austria which should be Slavic, but generally it is correct):

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/KranzG1988GeogrDevelopmOfEurLanguages/KrantzGCh7Fig26.jpg

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/KranzG1988GeogrDevelopmOfEurLanguages/KrantzGCh7Fig26.jpg

The East Frankish-Slavic ethnic border was Limes Sorabicus:

https://pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_Sorabicus

[Peterski]

Peterski I gotta give it to you man, every other post you make is directed towards Germans, trying to trigger them but no one seems to bite hehe ;)

Yeah I don't understand why people like Lawspeaker get triggered when I say Germanics are not genetically the same. The guy is Dutch and has a Filipino girlfriend but gets triggered when I say that East Germans are on average 50% Slavic (with probably 25-100% range). His half Filipino children will register here in 20 years time and will also claim being 100% Germanic, lol.

I guess this forum is just full of delusional Pan-Germanicists.

[Peterski]

Peterski I gotta give it to you man, every other post you make is directed towards Germans, trying to trigger them but no one seems to bite hehe ;)

You also get triggered when we talk about Swedes having Non-Germanic admixtures.

Which is funny considering you are a living evidence that there are Non-Germanic Swedes.

If you marry a Swedish woman your descendants will also be partially Non-Germanic.

This process has been going on for centuries, there is evidence of ethnic mixing in Sweden going back at least to the Viking Age.

Just check these Sigtuna samples. But you claimed they were just outliers.

[Harkonnen]

Large scale Slavic migration in the 500s at the time of Fimbulwinter:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?269146-Fimbulwinter-AD-536




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzNKXbInOiA

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/russia/Slavs700.jpg

^^^
And no, they did not assimilate. In 1100 AD everyone spoke Slavic east of the Elbe (there are some mistakes in this map like East Prussia which should be Baltic and Eastern Austria which should be Slavic, but generally it is correct):

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/KranzG1988GeogrDevelopmOfEurLanguages/KrantzGCh7Fig26.jpg

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/KranzG1988GeogrDevelopmOfEurLanguages/KrantzGCh7Fig26.jpg

The East Frankish-Slavic ethnic border was Limes Sorabicus:

https://pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_Sorabicus

LMAO first you post some links which state that whole villages were abandoned in Scandinavia and somehow in your twisted mind you twist this into: there happend large scale Slavic migration (which might have happend, is just that your evidence is complitely counter-intuitive).

[Aren]

You also get triggered when we talk about Swedes having Non-Germanic admixtures.

Which is funny considering you are a living evidence that there are Non-Germanic Swedes.

If you marry a Swedish woman your descendants will also be partially Non-Germanic.

This process has been going on for centuries, there is evidence of ethnic mixing in Sweden going back at least to the Viking Age.

Just check these Sigtuna samples. But you claimed they were just outliers.

Actually I have been very vocal about most of Swedes being very Finnish-shifted, how many Swedish kits have I given you who can be modelled as 50% Danish/50% Finnish?

The thing is though no German here is getting triggered although you are trying very hard.

[Harkonnen]

Fimbulvetr in fact started the Viking Age, in other words Germanic expansion.

[Peterski]

LMAO first you post some links which state that whole villages were abandoned in Scandinavia and somehow in your twisted mind you twist this into: there happend large scale Slavic migration (which might have happend, is just that your evidence is complitely counter-intuitive).

High degree of recent IBD sharing proves Slavic Expansion:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?269656-Ethnic-or-linguistic-families&p=5634917&viewfull=1#post5634917

[Harkonnen]

Actually I have been very vocal about most of Swedes being very Finnish-shifted, how many Swedish kits have I given you who can be modelled as 50% Danish/50% Finnish?

The thing is though no German here is getting triggered although you are trying very hard.

The Sigtuna samples appear to be genetically very much Finnic. I'm gonna guess the 12th century Finnish samples I already mentioned are going to genetically very similar to Sigtuna samples and the Estonian Tarand samples. In the summary it was mentioned that 12th century Finns were genetically most similar to Scandinavian and Baltic mesolithic Hunter Gatherers and Ukrainian Neolithics. Also it was said that they were closest to modern Western Europeans and Balts. Of course summaries can be misleading sometimes, but going from this evidence, I'd say modern Swedes are shifted away from Finnics towards Central Europe, compared to Viking Age Swedes.

[Harkonnen]

Meaning of course here the N1c1 guy and the I1 guy, and Kal006 from Sigtuna samples.

[Aren]

The Sigtuna samples appear to be genetically very much Finnic. I'm gonna guess the 12th century Finnish samples I already mentioned are going to genetically very similar to Sigtuna samples and the Estonian Tarand samples. In the summary it was mentioned that 12th century Finns were genetically most similar to Scandinavian and Baltic mesolithic Hunter Gatherers and Ukrainian Neolithics. Also it was said that they were closest to modern Western Europeans and Balts. Of course summaries can be misleading sometimes, but going from this evidence, I'd say modern Swedes are shifted away from Finnics towards Central Europe, compared to Viking Age Swedes.

The Tarand samples are going to be close to the Baltic_IA samples not to the Sigtuna N1c guy that plots with modern day Norwegians. Modern Swedes from Svealand are more Finnish-shifted than him.
Modern day Finns are obviously some kind of Baltic_IA + proto-Sami mix which happend when the Samis were pushed north from southern Finland. Additionaly there's also a Germanic or Germanic-like input, hence the high I1 and one of the Leväluhta samples being very Germanic autosomally.

[Peterski]

Fimbulvetr in fact started the Viking Age, in other words Germanic expansion.

The Viking Age started closer to 800 AD.

All kinds of people were moving around in the 500s, not just Slavic and not just Germanic either. It was called Migration Period for a reason.

The Anglo-Saxon migration to England for example started already around 450 AD (maybe even sooner) and lasted for the next at least 100-150 years with continuous influx of people over time (this is according to Heinrich Harke).

But when you look at the political border between Celtic and Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, then it turns out that the Anglo-Saxons made large gains between 450 and 500 AD, but around 500 AD their progress came to a halt for the next 50 years.

It is believed that the battle of Badon (known from the legends about King Arthur) is what halted the Anglo-Saxon invasion for around half a century.

After 550 AD there was again a period of Anglo-Saxon expansion. Probably they were reinforced by large amounts of new immigrants shortly before going on the offensive again.

[Harkonnen]

The Tarand samples are going to be close to the Baltic_IA samples not to the Sigtuna N1c guy that plots with modern day Norwegians. Modern Swedes from Svealand are more Finnish-shifted than him.
Modern day Finns are obviously some kind of Baltic_IA + proto-Sami mix which happend when the Samis were pushed north from southern Finland. Additionaly there's also a Germanic or Germanic-like input, hence the high I1 and one of the Leväluhta samples being very Germanic autosomally.

I mean proto-Finns here. Proto-Finns were more western shifted compared to modern Finns.

[Aren]

I mean proto-Finns here. Proto-Finns were more western shifted compared to modern Finns.

I think proto-Finns are going to be close to the Iron Age Baltic samples we have so far with a slight Siberian shift.

[Peterski]

Proto-Finns were more western shifted compared to modern Finns.

How do you know that they were Proto-Finns and not some Indo-Europeans living in what is now Finland?

[Harkonnen]

How do you know that they were Proto-Finns and not some Indo-Europeans living in what is now Finland?

Seriously? We are talking 13th century here. We even know their names (or at least have a good guess): Memo de Ryduvala and Somalayni de Riduala. They were mentioned in a papal bull for refusing to pay taxes to Catholic Church. Y-DNA was N1c1 (more specifically typically East Finnish N1c1 clade).

[StevenTylerAerosmith]

Like half-way between Celtic natives and Alemanni settlers.

which modern pops are celtic native and alemanni settlers most similar to?

[Aren]

Seriously? We are talking 13th century here. We even know their names (or at least have a good guess): Memo de Ryduvala and Somalayni de Riduala. They were mentioned in a papal bull for refusing to pay taxes to Catholic Church. Y-DNA was N1c1 (more specifically typically East Finnish N1c1 clade).

A 13th century Finn being close to Ukraine_N or Latvian-HG? Yeah sure.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Like Basques.

You're claiming now that Iberians in the early Medieval times were like the Basques, which is nonsense.

I guess you no longer believe Celts had an impact in Iberia. You went on and on about Celts in Iberia and now you say something completely different. That's quite a shift in view.

[Harkonnen]

A 13th century Finn being close to Ukraine_N or Latvian-HG? Yeah sure.

The text indeed seemed to imply the guy was genetically closer to Stone Age guys than what modern Finns are. How much? I don't know. Many times these pretexts can be misleading, so we will see.