Ethnic map of Europe - 2011

[MacedonBG]

Full version:
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/2680/ethnicdistribution.png

Resized:
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2680/ethnicdistribution.png

Enjoy

[Wyn]

Lol, so Wales and England are given the same shading but England and Southeast Scotland are cut off from one another?

Teh fail.

[MacedonBG]

I am open to see your view on it. Grab a paint.

[Wyn]

I am open to see your view on it. Grab a paint.

I was rather needlessly scornful, I apologise. Nonetheless, I'd make one or two amendments to your version... I might produce one of my own, and you can pick holes in it. ;)

[Efim45]

What is red?

[MacedonBG]

Didn't do that good job on some regions I admit. For instance Russia is almost homogenous according to the map, which is indeed not accurate. If a russian wants to add Bashkirs and all sorts of other Uralic people, they should also go ahead. Bear in mind this map is not expansionist, its ethnic distribution.

[MacedonBG]

What is red?

Russians. Belorusians are included.

[Sikeliot]

If Basques are going to be labeled separately, Sardinians should be too.

[Ouistreham]

Man, there are a lot of errors:
• In Switzerland:
- only the southernmost canton Ticino is Italian.
- Graubünden (South-East) should be almost all grey (German), with a small green area bordering Italy (Poschiavo)
- the Western part of canton Bern is French speaking!
- Valais (South-West) should be blue, with its Eastern tip grey

• Italy: Vallée d'Aoste (North-West) should be blue.

• Luxembourg, being officially and actually bilingual, cannot be all blue. IMHO a large bilingual area joining the Netherlands to Switzerland over Eastern Belgium, Luxembourg, North-eastern Lorraine and Alsace should be indicated to match reality.

• Brussels and its surroundings are officially bilingual, but in reality almost unilingual French.

• You are over-generous to Denmark. Current border to Germany matches pretty good reality (with a tiny Danish minority near Kiel, and conversely a few Germans in South-Jutland). Skåne, Halland and Blekinge (and moreover Öland and Gotland) are fully Swedish. (And Southern Småland and Östergötland never were Danish BTW).

• Yep, the North of Sweden was colonized in recent times, but the North of Norway has been Norvegian since the Viking era, with Sami population largely assimilated.


The problem with this map is that you freely mix historical claims, current official boundaries and linguistic situation. Most of Navarra is supposed to be Basque but hasn't been speaking Basque for a thousand years. The Basque area on the French side is twice as large as it should be (and include archrival Bearn!). If you go that way, why not give Jämtland and Bohuslän back to Norway, Silesia-Pomerania-Ostpreussen to Germany? Vyborg and Petsamo back to Finland? And Istria back to Italy?

The omission of Wales as a separate area is questionable to say the least.


If Basques are going to be labeled separately, Sardinians should be too.

— Why not? Sardinian is a non-Italic Romance language. Although its use is constantly decreasing, a distinct ethnical conscience remains. Same for Brittany or Occitania. And for Andalucia and Bavaria too, and Ulster... No end in sight...

[poiuytrewq0987]

Stupid pro-Bulgarian map, no thanks.

[antonio]

A good effort. Unfortunatelly a ethnical map of Europe resorting simply on colours is doomed to failure. Just in Spain, there's too much complexity to constraint it to autonomies and "historical nations".

[Falkata]

A good effort. Unfortunatelly a ethnical map of Europe resorting simply on colours is doomed to failure. Just in Spain, there's too much complexity to constraint it to autonomies and "historical nations".

I dont know why we´re part of Castille in that map but not the Basque country :confused:
As far as i know both kingdoms belonged to the Crown of Castille

[alzo zero]

— Why not? Sardinian is a non-Italic Romance language.
Sardinian IS an Italic Romance language, every Romance language derives from Latin which also derives from a language spoken by a few Italic tribes who lived in Central Italy. Actually Sardinian is one of the most conservative Latin languages still existing.

[Eldritch]

Uh, some kind of legend for the map would be nice. :confused:

[Sikeliot]

All Romance languages are Italic.

It goes Indo-European --> Italic --> Italo-Western and Eastern Romance, which then encompasses Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, French, and regional dialects of these in the former, and Romanian in the latter.

[MacedonBG]

...

Thanks. I don't really believe in "Assimlation", there isn't such a thing, except someone changes the race of the asimilated population. Otherwise its a self-destructive delusion. This is concerning sami people.

[Comte Arnau]

Full version:
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/2680/ethnicdistribution.png

Resized:
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2680/ethnicdistribution.png

Enjoy

Nice effort. But only in the South-West (Iberia, Italy and France), the area I'm more specialized on, many are missing.


All Romance languages are Italic.

It goes Indo-European --> Italic --> Italo-Western and Eastern Romance, which then encompasses Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, French, and regional dialects of these in the former, and Romanian in the latter.

You're missing many Romance languages in that list.

[Sikeliot]

Italy and everything west of it goes into the Italo-Western side of the Romance languages, and anything east of that in the Eastern Romance category. Is that clearer?

[MacedonBG]

The thing is, I am not exactly sure when dialect/language differences shift to national/racial differences, since nations are composed by groups of people with the same blood, regardless of the means of communication(language).

*Bilingual areas on the map would be nice, if someone wants to place them

Slightly altered to meet expectations.
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/1201/ethnicdistribution2.png

[Gaztelu]

The thing is, I am not exactly sure when dialect/language differences shift to national/racial differences, since nations are composed by groups of people with the same blood, regardless of the means of communication(language).

*Bilingual areas on the map would be nice, if someone wants to place them

Slightly altered to meet expectations.
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/1201/ethnicdistribution2.png

You forgot the Occitanians, the Bretons, and the Cornish peoples.

By the way, do have a blank version of this map?

[Comte Arnau]

A much more accurate map concerning Iberia:

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/5787/apibethn.jpg

[Ibericus]

A much more accurate map concerning Iberia:

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/5787/apibethn.jpg
LOL ethnicity = language

[Comte Arnau]

LOL ethnicity = language

Not only. Otherwise most Aragonese would be Castilians, etc. But it's plain to see why it is the most important bound, at least in Europe.

I know why you laugh at it, you feel pretty fine with the stupid statu quo. But what ethnicity certainly is not, is what a piece of paper has to say about it. Anyway, I know you know inside that this map is accurate. Spanish nationalists also think this is accurate, even if they try hard to hide it. But it shows unconsciously in their acts and words every now and then.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Here is an unbiased version without Bulgarian delusions of ethnic majorities in areas they barely constitute a minority. I also added the Muslims, it was funny to see 1/2 of Bosnia as Croat :D

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1654/nonbiasedmap.png

[poiuytrewq0987]

Now this on the other hand... :coffee:

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7441/okthisoneisbiased.png

[Max]

Full version:
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/2680/ethnicdistribution.png

Resized:
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2680/ethnicdistribution.png

Enjoy


Northern Ukrainians are closer to Russians and Belarusians than Southern ones. I dont know why you made them their own separate ethnicity :confused:

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Full version:
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/2680/ethnicdistribution.png

Resized:
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2680/ethnicdistribution.png


Too much red.:mad:

[poiuytrewq0987]

Too much red.:mad:

Then make more children. Finns are only 5 million in their country compared to 115 million Russians in Russia. :pound:

[poiuytrewq0987]

I prefer this map:

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/3622/1914europemap.jpg

In this one, you can clearly see the Serbs making up a clear majority in cities like Skoplje and Kumanovo and Bulgarians making up a mixed majority in Ohrid and Strumica.

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5764/1914sjrbia.jpg

So, Bulgarian propagandists, FUCK OFF and leave Skoplje and Kumanovo to Serbian hands, not dirty Tatro-Bulgarian hands!

[Daos]

What happened in Crișana?:confused: Did the Hungarians invade us without me noticing? The Hungarians make: 25% of the population in Bihor, 23% in Sălaj and 35% in Satu Mare, and that was back in 2002. Only in Mureș, Harghita and Covasna do they form a majority.

Here's a more detailed map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Romania_harta_etnica_2002.PNG/800px-Romania_harta_etnica_2002.PNG

[MacedonBG]

Forget me not, no balkan drama please, especially, since you haven't set foot in towns like Xanti, Komotini, Metsovo, Arta, Paracin, or tsaribrod. But thank you for the Megali Idea, greek dream map. I guess you are pretty mad that I can buy bread in northern greece, using Bulgarian, from people of my race.

[MacedonBG]

Now this on the other hand... :coffee:

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7441/okthisoneisbiased.png

http://debian.fmi.uni-sofia.bg/~nikola1/Bul/SIMEON2.jpg

U Jelly?:rolleyes2:

[Don Brick]

Full version:
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/2680/ethnicdistribution.png

Resized:
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2680/ethnicdistribution.png

Enjoy

Damn! :eek: Karl´s not gonna like this one!

[Albion]

There's a few errors that can be resolved but its great that you're making an up-to-date map of the ethnicities. You could perhaps add some slighter shading for areas with minority native ethnic groups such as the Aromanians in Greece and Macedonia.

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://debian.fmi.uni-sofia.bg/%7Enikola1/Bul/SIMEON2.jpg

U Jelly?:rolleyes2:


No...

http://www.turkeyhandbook.com/img/bizans.jpg

:D

[poiuytrewq0987]

Celt, the 1914 map of Vardarska is probably the most accurate ethnic map you could find on the region. Northern Vardarska was largely populated by Vardarska Serbs and Southern Vardarska was populated by Bulgarians and Turks and Hellenes.

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5764/1914sjrbia.jpg

[MacedonBG]

No...

http://www.turkeyhandbook.com/img/bizans.jpg

:D

Oh yes, like this land was populated by greeks, and not just a legacy of what the romans conquered. Anyway, you do have some issues, like the belief that there is something like a "muslim" nation on the Balkans, which is ridiculous.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c152/Liudovik/2-29.jpg

U mad now?

[Peyrol]

All Romance languages are Italic.

It goes Indo-European --> Italic --> Italo-Western and Eastern Romance, which then encompasses Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, French, and regional dialects of these in the former, and Romanian in the latter.

True, also mexican spanish and carioca portuguese are classifed as "italic languages" :laugh:

[MacedonBG]

Celt, the 1914 map of Vardarska is probably the most accurate ethnic map you could find on the region. Northern Vardarska was largely populated by Vardarska Serbs and Southern Vardarska was populated by Bulgarians and Turks and Hellenes.

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5764/1914sjrbia.jpg

Have you set foot in it, or you just speak by paint pictures. Ridiculous. Anyway. Enough time wasted on you. :coffee: I guess i will be busy with NOT talking to another common geeky PC chauvinist.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Anyway, you do have some issues, like the belief that there is something like a "muslim" nation on the Balkans, which is ridiculous.



U mad now?


Hmm, but surely the Muslims doesn't all identify as Croat, eh? :D You just proved my point that the map you provided isn't intended to provide an unbiased look but rather a biased one based on political reasons such as Greater Bulgaria. :coffee:

[Peyrol]

The thing is, I am not exactly sure when dialect/language differences shift to national/racial differences, since nations are composed by groups of people with the same blood, regardless of the means of communication(language).

*Bilingual areas on the map would be nice, if someone wants to place them

Slightly altered to meet expectations.
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/1201/ethnicdistribution2.png

You are again wrong.

Not all of the Trentino, but only the province of Bolzano is germanic.

And also southern part of Switzerland over Lombardia is italian.

[MacedonBG]

Hmm, but surely the Muslims doesn't all identify as Croat, eh? :D You just proved my point that the map you provided isn't intended to provide an unbiased look but rather a biased one based on political reasons such as Greater Bulgaria. :coffee:

The allegation is unfounded, Greater Bulgaria, looks much different

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/348/kartazname.jpg

But your depiction of Greece and Serbia as homogenous, was indeed hilarous, and politically motivated.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Have you set foot in it, or you just speak by paint pictures. Ridiculous. Anyway. Enough time wasted on you. :coffee: I guess i will be busy with NOT talking to another common geeky PC chauvinist.

Yes, I am as a matter of fact a Serb from Kumanovo. 9,000 Serbs in Kumanovo still identify as Serb whereas millions in Vardarska despise their Bugarski brothers. :rotfl:
Vardarska has been Serbian since 1913 when has it been Bulgarian? A few years of Nazi occupation during WW2? :D

Your crazy obsession with that shitty region called Vardarska caused you to lose Eastern Thrace in the Second Balkan War to the Ottomans. Great job, my Slavic brat! :clap:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Balkankrieg_Besetzte_Gebiete_1913.png/600px-Balkankrieg_Besetzte_Gebiete_1913.png


But sure, keep declaring war on us, us Greeks and Serbs will kick your ass again and take Vidin for Serbia and Plovdiv for Greece. :pound:

[Peyrol]

I like the map of 1920.

http://www.irredentismo.it/Immagini/etnografica.gif

NOTE: Serb and Croat are both green

[MacedonBG]

http://files.sharenator.com/u_mad_bro_Picture_Challenge_3-s469x428-160564-535.jpg

That's what I thought so. :rolleyes2:

[poiuytrewq0987]

The allegation is unfounded, Greater Bulgaria, looks much different



But your depiction of Greece and Serbia as homogenous, was indeed hilarous, and politically motivated.

Delusions of grandeur is something Bulgarians are very good at. Dreaming of a Greater Bulgaria when Bulgarians in Bulgaria are a rapidly shrinking majority, an ever increasing number of Turks and Gypsies in Bulgaria and rampant corruption in the Bulgarian government, an antiquated army plagued with equipment from the Soviet era, etc etc. :pound:

Hellenic Leopard 2:

http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/europe/greece/main_battle_tank/leopard_2a6_hel/pictures/Leopard_2A6_HEL_main_battle_tank_Hellenic_Greece_A rmy_002.jpg

Serbia's Russian T-90 copy:

http://aircraft-planet.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Tank-M-84-ABS-in-Serbian-Army.jpg


And what does Bulgaria have?

http://paper.standartnews.com/images/articles/orig_23951_en.jpg

President Parvanov :D :D

[MacedonBG]

And I thought stupidity is not endless. Now expexting dumping pictures of greek/serb models which of course are "way hotter" than bulgarian "bitches". It was a much better world when computers were only limited to well-mannered people. Continue making a disgrace of yourself. Adding you to my ignore list. Done!

[alzo zero]

No...

http://www.turkeyhandbook.com/img/bizans.jpg

:D
Wrong. The Byzantines controlled very little of Italy north of Rome.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Bulgaria was sitting on a lot of territory and was in quite nice place in 1913 post-First Balkan War actually. However it declared war on Serbia and Greece because it wanted full control of Vardarska and Macedonia and that let the Romanians and the Ottomans to join the war taking Dobrudja and Eastern Thrace from Bulgaria.

http://www.polisci.ucla.edu/faculty/trachtenberg/courses/Second%20Balkan%20War.JPG

They threw it all away because they wanted MORE! :icon_drunk:Nothing was ever enough for Bugaria. MORE! MORE! :icon_drunk:

[alzo zero]

Wrong. The Byzantines controlled very little of Italy north of Rome.
Sorry, let me rephrase it. They controlled very little save for 6 years: from 562 the final defeat of the Ostrogoths in Brescia and in Verona, to 568 when the Lombards came and the Byzantines got kicked back south again.

[poiuytrewq0987]

And I thought stupidity is not endless. Now expexting dumping pictures of greek/serb models which of course are "way hotter" than bulgarian "bitches". It was a much better world when computers were only limited to well-mannered people. Continue making a disgrace of yourself. Adding you to my ignore list. Done!

If you think I will only let Bulgarian propaganda to be heard then you got it all wrong, brat. I am sure as hell not going to surrender Vardarska to Bulgarians. Skoplje and Kumanovo both have been INTEGRAL part of Serbia for centuries and more recently, 1913, when it rejoined Serbia.

[MacedonBG]

And I thought I can make a discussion about current ethnic distribution in Europe, without balkan-war refferences and serbian/greek/whatever political agenda. Oh, oh, its a harsh world... :rolleyes2:


Exactly what is not part of Serbia, do you mind asking. Cause I am deffinitely sure Siberia is according to your historians: :D
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/7386/800pxmigrationofserbs00.jpg

:D

keep up the spirit, you've got lots to be proud of, especially from the rich arhecheological sites in Yakutia

[poiuytrewq0987]

And I thought I can make a discussion about current ethnic distribution in Europe, without balkan-war refferences and serbian/greek/whatever political agenda. Oh, oh, its a harsh world... :rolleyes2:

You started it all when you painted Vardarska to be all Bulgarian... bullshit I don't need to hear on here.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Exactly what is not part of Serbia, do you mind asking. Cause I am deffinitely sure Siberia is. :D
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/7386/800pxmigrationofserbs00.jpg

:D

OsqkEMT4vws

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://klicevac.free.fr/Images/balkans1914gf.gif

[poiuytrewq0987]

This one seems to be done rather recently but take it with a grain of salt. :coffee: as it recognizes artificial ethnics as Macedonian, Montenegrin and Muslim Bosniak. :zzz

http://www.eurominority.org/documents/cartes/europe-stateless-nations.gif

[MacedonBG]

Yes, yes, for a while I forgot what kind of no-lifers occupy the forums. Such a shame. Good luck with your picture fight.

[Peerkons]

The map is wrong. Lithuania isn't so much russian. Especially in Palanga-Klaipēda/Memel region. Latvian can even understand the dialect there because that region used to be Latvian.
Russians are ~5% in Lithuania.


Also in South-Sweden. They are not Danish.

[Ushtari]

This one seems to be done rather recently but take it with a grain of salt. :coffee: as it recognizes artificial ethnics as Macedonian, Montenegrin and Muslim Bosniak. :zzz


Hahahaha, according to that map, there are no Albanians in Saranda:D

[Treffie]

Where the fuck is Wales and the Welsh? :confused:

[poiuytrewq0987]

Hahahaha, according to that map, there are no Albanians in Saranda:D

Let's make one Albo-Serb nation and be great + powerful. :D

[Ushtari]

Let's make one Albo-Serb nation and be great + powerful. :D
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Balkan_federation.png
:D

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Balkan_federation.png
:D

Nah... let's go for an United Republic of Serbia and Albania with colonies in Malmoe and Apulia. :D

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/171/unitedrepublic.png

[Panopticon]

Let's make one Albo-Serb nation and be great + powerful. :D

I say we invade the Netherlands first as to show of the strength of this new nation. Let's turn their parliament building into a mosque.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I say we invade the Netherlands first as to show of the strength of this new nation. Let's turn their parliament building into a mosque.

I agree and let's try international war criminals who commit war crimes against the citizens of the United Republic of Serbia and Albania (URSA) in Utrecht. :D

[Peerkons]

U Balkan-oids are weird...

[poiuytrewq0987]

U Balkan-oids are weird...

Because we realized that instead of fighting against each others with the NATO laughing at us we decided to fight together for a GREATER SERBIA and GREATER ALBANIA.

Thank you.

[Peerkons]

Not because of that.
You always fight between each other and make some shit.
Can't understand this. All these unions all these fights..

[poiuytrewq0987]

Not because of that.
You always fight between each other and make some shit.
Can't understand this. All these unions all these fights..

I can't decide whether I want to move to Latvia or Lithuania. Which country per capita has more hotter girls?

[Panopticon]

I agree and let's try international war criminals who commit war crimes against the citizens of the United Republic of Serbia and Albania (URSA) in Utrecht. :D


A fine proposal, FMN. However, we need to expand more. What about Spain?

[poiuytrewq0987]

A fine proposal, FMN. However, we need to expand more. What about Spain?

I agree, Spain could be used as one big vacation resort for citizens of URSA and Spaniard men will have to work as Slaves to serve our country and their women to be our sex slaves. :D

[Ouistreham]

Only sensible option: French Europe as of 1811.
With core France (from Lübeck to Rome!) in dark blue, and virtually Frenchified districts all around:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Napoleoniceurope.png

[Panopticon]

I agree, Spain could be used as one big vacation resort for citizens of URSA and Spaniard men will have to work as Slaves to serve our country and their women to be our sex slaves. :D

Indeed, Spanish women shall be to the URSAn men what Gamibian men are to Swedish women. However, Spanish men have a reputation of not being able to concentrate, at least not to our URSAn standards, we'll send em' to concentration camps.

[Foxy]

GENETIC AREAS:

According to genetists in Europe there are these genetic subregions:
- the Ashkenazi region
- the Balkans
- the Basque region
- the Celtic area
- the Ugrofinnic area
- the Germanic area
- the Italian region
- the Greek region
- the Scandinavia region
- Portugal
- the Spanish region
- the Russian region
- the Polish region

http://anthropology.net/2008/08/11/genetic-geographic-and-linguistic-structure-of-european-populations/

^^^ From this site:

After some principal component analyses (PCA), there was a clear distinction between individuals with northern from southern European ancestry, as well as separation of Italian, Spanish, and Greek individuals from those of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry.

http://anthropologynet.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/european-population-substructure.png?w=500

Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans belong to two different stocks which are connected to each others by some Basque and Italian individuals.
The oldest genetic heritage of Europe belongs to Basques.

According to these studies the genetic areas of Europe appear this way:

http://angelhills.net/images/europa-web.jpg

A more detailed scheme is available here:

http://www.dnatribes.com/sample-results/dnatribes-europa-sample-italian.pdf

[Sikeliot]

True, also mexican spanish and carioca portuguese are classifed as "italic languages" :laugh:


Mexican Spanish = a poor imitation of proper Spanish
Carioca Portuguese = a poor imitation of proper Portuguese

;)

[Ouistreham]

@Veleda

A Sua Maestà,

DNA Tribes® is a joke, and all about sales and ROI.

The farcical overrepresentation of Jewish and Irish components was just meant to meet U.S. market demand. This is pure American nonsense.

[W. R.]

Russians. Belorusians are included.Lol, I mad.

[Äike]

Full version:
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/2680/ethnicdistribution.png

Resized:
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2680/ethnicdistribution.png

Enjoy

Holy shit, you're mentally impaired.

Harjumaa, the most populated region of Estonia, is Russian for you.

Saaremaa, the most Estonian region of Estonia, is Latvian to you. I think that there's not a single Latvian living there.

Start making maps when you're not ignorant and if you decided to mark Ida-Virumaa as Russian, then you should start marking the Somali areas of Sweden, Pakistani areas of GB and nigger areas of France.

What a fucked up map...

[Albion]

Only sensible option: French Europe as of 1811.
With core France (from Lübeck to Rome!) in dark blue, and virtually Frenchified districts all around:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Napoleoniceurope.png

St Helena beckons.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/Coat_of_arms_of_Saint_Helena.svg/200px-Coat_of_arms_of_Saint_Helena.svg.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Napoleon_sainthelene.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

I made some corrections for our Bugarski member to Estonia, Wales, Lithuania, Romania, Slovenia, Bosnia, Greece, Vardarska, Serbia and Sweden.

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3542/ethnomap1.png

[Osweo]

The Russian autonomous republics and provinces are NOT an accurate indicator of the nations and peoples whose name they bear.

In fact, using solid blocks of colour based on contemporary administrative divisions for ANY region in Europe is an utter waste of time. :tsk:

[poiuytrewq0987]

The Russian autonomous republics and provinces are NOT an accurate indicator of the nations and peoples whose name they bear.

In fact, using solid blocks of colour based on contemporary administrative divisions for ANY region in Europe is an utter waste of time. :tsk:

Yeah, and not to mention the fact in some areas in Western Europe it's more non-European than indigenous. For instance, Berlin could be called New Ankara, Paris New Algiers, and London New Islamabad, etc... :D

[Aramis]

Here's what seems to be an accurate map of ethnic distribution on the Balkans and east central Europe:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_4-gfZD_UncM/R9-Woddjo-I/AAAAAAAAAWY/EZxLV5YT4Ik/Ethnic%2Bmap%2Bcentral-east%2BEuropa%2B2008.jpg

That's the reality. Take it or leave, just don't quote me.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Here's what seems to be an accurate map of ethnic distribution on the Balkans and central Europe:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_4-gfZD_UncM/R9-Woddjo-I/AAAAAAAAAWY/EZxLV5YT4Ik/Ethnic%2Bmap%2Bcentral-east%2BEuropa%2B2008.jpg

That's the reality. Take it or leave, just don't quote me.

No information on Eastern Thrace?

[Aramis]

No information on Eastern Thrace?

Mostly covered with minarets.

http://beautifulmosques.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Sultan_Ahmed_Mosque_Istanbul_Turkey.jpg

[Comte Arnau]

Yeah, and not to mention the fact in some areas in Western Europe it's more non-European than indigenous. For instance, Berlin could be called New Ankara, Paris New Algiers, and London New Islamabad, etc... :D

Barcelona could be New Rabat and Madrid could be New Quito.

[Äike]

I made some corrections for our Bugarski member to Estonia, Wales, Lithuania, Romania, Slovenia, Bosnia, Greece, Vardarska, Serbia and Sweden.

Your map is still fucked up. Lääne-Viru county you marked as Russian and Muhumaa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhu) is still marked as Latvian...

Although, neither the Somalis in Sweden nor the Russians in Ida-Viru county are "historic immigrants", thus I don't know if you one should mark them with a different color. Like marking the Finn-Swede areas of Finland makes sense, as the Finn-Swedes have been there for 700+ years. Estonia also had the Estonian-Swedes for 700+ years, but the Soviets are responsible for barely any still remaining here.

[Nurzat]

incomplete ethnic map of romania. still many lipovan communities in dobrudja and ukrainian communities in banat not marked. also, i really think there must be more gypoes in southern transylvania and eastern muntenia (southern romania). take in consideration that under one half of the members of the smaller ethnicities declare themselves what they are, while the largest part declares itself romanian...

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5020/5547451577_7d59c42be4_b.jpg

[Peyrol]

Barcelona could be New Rabat and Madrid could be New Quito.
...and Milano Western Shenyang (or Shangai), my city (Torino) West Timsoara and Brescia New Cuzco :laugh:

[poiuytrewq0987]

...and Milano Western Shenyang (or Shangai), my city (Torino) West Timsoara and Brescia New Cuzco :laugh:

My new ethnicity: Human. :coffee:

[Radojica]

My new ethnicity: Human waste. :coffee:

Fixed.

[Peyrol]

My new ethnicity: Human. :coffee:

...or maybe

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wCBnToKqRdk/TVUtX3XKW9I/AAAAAAAAAZM/A7dVoy8q06Q/s400/2788751.gif

[Daos]

incomplete ethnic map of romania. still many lipovan communities in dobrudja and ukrainian communities in banat not marked. also, i really think there must be more gypoes in southern transylvania and eastern muntenia (southern romania). take in consideration that under one half of the members of the smaller ethnicities declare themselves what they are, while the largest part declares itself romanian...

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5020/5547451577_7d59c42be4_b.jpg

The areas in a different colour, other than that allocated to the Romanian ethnicity, have a majority of a different ethnicity. That doesn't mean that they're not present in the rest of the country, nor does it mean that there are no Romanians in the different coloured regions.

[alzo zero]

...and Brescia New Cuzco :laugh:
New Tirana will do, thanks. :)

[Nurzat]

The areas in a different colour, other than that allocated to the Romanian ethnicity, have a majority of a different ethnicity. That doesn't mean that they're not present in the rest of the country, nor does it mean that there are no Romanians in the different coloured regions.

in my village (population ~3000) there are no romanians but those working for the frontier police and at the border cross and only them are speaking romanian as a daily language. also in nearly all the hungarian inhabited places you would hear only hungarian. not to mention there are villages like breaza in suceava county where you hear ONLY ukrainian but they appear as 100% romanian in the census... those vlachs really did it, you know, they really did it denationalising everyone else in the region, they're like pest (efficient)

[Daos]

in my village (population ~3000) there are no romanians but those working for the frontier police and at the border cross and only them are speaking romanian as a daily language. also in nearly all the hungarian inhabited places you would hear only hungarian. not to mention there are villages like breaza in suceava county where you hear ONLY ukrainian but they appear as 100% romanian in the census...

Okay...


those vlachs really did it, you know, they really did it denationalising everyone else in the region, they're like pest (efficient)

I assume you're talking about assimilation... The Ukrainians, Hungarians, Serbs and Bulgarians also have done a pretty good job in reducing the Romanian population in their territories, so I don't see your point.

[Jarl]

Full version:
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/2680/ethnicdistribution.png
Enjoy


What criteria did u use? If the thershold is local ethnic majority by province, then Poland should be homogenous, East Lithuania Polish rather than Russian, and most of Ukraine Ukrainian. Does this version correspond to majority Russian-speaking areas?

[Radojica]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, FUCKING JARL IS HERE!!!!!! :wohoo:

[Osweo]

Here's another better quality version of Aramis's map;
http://mappery.com/map-of/East-Central-and-Southeast-Europe-Nationality-Map

It's from a few years earlier, and so doesn't take account of a few expulsions and the like.

I was looking for the up to date one at a better resolution, but no luck. :(

[poiuytrewq0987]

Here's another better quality version of Aramis's map;
http://mappery.com/map-of/East-Central-and-Southeast-Europe-Nationality-Map

It's from a few years earlier, and so doesn't take account of a few expulsions and the like.

I was looking for the up to date one at a better resolution, but no luck. :(

Five of Serbia's primary regions look like they're on the highway to hell. :coffee:

Vojvodina's invasion of Huns, Bosnia's Islamic fascists and Croat ethnic cleansers, Kosovo's invasion of Shqips, and Macedonia and Montenegro's mental fairy tale... :D

[Guapo]

What criteria did u use? If the thershold is local ethnic majority by province, then Poland should be homogenous, East Lithuania Polish rather than Russian, and most of Ukraine Ukrainian. Does this version correspond to majority Russian-speaking areas?

:eek:

[Adolfito Bonifaz]

Balearic people = Catalans?

Hahahahaaa... no.

Currently, most of Balearic people are children or grandchildren of people from Andalusia, Extremadura, Galicia, Castille ... and many other parts of Spain. Only in small towns in the interior of the island are descended from Catalans.

Most Balearic people (especially young people) speak Spanish/Castilian, not Catalan.

Moreover, the Catalans and the Basques are sub-ethnic groups of Spaniards.

http://hostingb.hotchyx.com/adult-image-hosting-00/5551iupdzs3q.png

[Comte Arnau]

Balearic people = Catalans?

Hahahahaaa... no.

Currently, most of Balearic people are children or grandchildren of people from Andalusia, Extremadura, Galicia, Castille ... and many other parts of Spain. Only in small towns in the interior of the island are descended from Catalans.

Most Balearic people (especially young people) speak Spanish/Castilian, not Catalan.


Colonization.

Following your argument, a small town in Spain where there'd be 55% Nigerian immigrants would stop being Spanish and become Nigerian.

Lol at defending history and tradition only when it fits well your biased ideology.

[Gaztelu]

Moreover, the Catalans and the Basques are sub-ethnic groups of Spaniards.

http://hostingb.hotchyx.com/adult-image-hosting-00/5551iupdzs3q.png

:tsk:

Nacionalidad ≠ Etnicidad

[Ibericus]

Colonization.

Following your argument, a small town in Spain where there'd be 55% Nigerian immigrants would stop being Spanish and become Nigerian.

Lol at defending history and tradition only when it fits well your biased ideology.
Yes, a town with more than 55% nigerians is no more spanish. Why do you think we are against invasions? :rolleyes:

[Comte Arnau]

Moreover, the Catalans and the Basques are sub-ethnic groups of Spaniards.


Yeah, specially Catalans and Basques from France.


Yes, a town with more than 55% nigerians is no more spanish. Why do you think we are against invasions? :rolleyes:

Why do you think I am pro-independence?

[Ibericus]

Why do you think I am pro-independence?
Because you have been brainwashed by politicians interests and media ?

[Comte Arnau]

Because you have been brainwashed by politicians interests and media ?

That's all you can say when you have no arguments? Follow what the Spanish nationalist media say?

At least I am a Catalan.

[Querubín]

:tsk:

Nacionalidad ≠ Etnicidad

look for belgium or east countries

[Comte Arnau]

look for belgium or east countries

Belgian ethnicity? Find me a Belgian who defends the existence of such a thing.

[Ibericus]

That's all you can say when you have no arguments? Follow what the Spanish nationalist media say?
Actually you are right. I have no arguments. Explain it to me.


At least I am a Catalan.
I already know that you are catalan.

[Gaztelu]

look for belgium or east countries

In Belgium, there are the Flemish, the Walloons, the French, and the Germans. That country is a terrible example of a nation-state.


Because you have been brainwashed by politicians interests and media ?

Perhaps you should consult assclowns like Adolfito Bonifaz, who believe in the existence of a singular Spanish ethnicity, and who seem satisfied with non-Castilian lands losing their culture in favour of a foreign Castilian one.

Perhaps that could explain why Count Arnau is a Catalonian seperatist.

[Comte Arnau]

Actually you are right. I have no arguments. Explain it to me.


Lol. Since when Spanish nationalists are interested in the truth of things? It'd be contradictory, as you have to believe that Spain is a nation. Starting from here, everything else doesn't matter.

[Querubín]

Belgian ethnicity? Find me a Belgian who defends the existence of such a thing.

Walonia with france and flandres with holland. In this map you see that. And you see a slavic ethnicity

[Comte Arnau]

Walonia with france and flandres with holland. In this map you see that. And you see a slavic ethnicity

So? Where is that 'Belgian ethnicity'? It simply doesnt' exist, just like the 'Spanish ethnicity' doesn't exist either. Both Belgian and Spanish are nationalities.

[Querubín]

So? Where is that 'Belgian ethnicity'? It simply doesnt' exist, just like the 'Spanish ethnicity' doesn't exist either. Both Belgian and Spanish are nationalities.

Sure?

[Gaztelu]

Walonia with france and flandres with holland. In this map you see that.

That map represents the distribution of ethnic groups throughout Europe and proves that Belgium is not a nation-state. What are you trying to get at?

By the way, Walloons are an ethnicity distinct from the French.

[Comte Arnau]

That map represents the distribution of ethnic groups throughout Europe and proves that Belgium is not a nation-state. What are trying to get at?


Spanish nationalists defend the statu quo and try to equate ethnicity with nationality, because they dream of a Castilian-only Spain. Or at least a France-like Spain, where non-Castilian ethnicities are treated in a folklorical museum way.

[Ibericus]

Spanish nationalists defend the statu quo and try to equate ethnicity with nationality, because they dream of a Castilian-only Spain. Or at least a France-like Spain, where non-Castilian ethnicities are treated in a folklorical museum way.
La diversidad lingüística es una de las grandes riquezas culturales de España.


Perhaps you should consult assclowns like Adolfito Bonifaz, who believe in the existence of a singular Spanish ethnicity, and who seem satisfied with non-Castilian lands losing their culture in favour of a foreign Castilian one.

Perhaps that could explain why Count Arnau is a Catalonian seperatist.
A catalan State wouldn't not be able to stop any immigration, be it from the rest of Spain or extra-european.

[Ouistreham]

Walloons are an ethnicity distinct from the French.

Absolutely wrong. You are very poorly informed!

Belgium distinguishes regions (territories) and communities (i.e. ethnicities).

Three regions:
• Flanders (with French minorities)
• Wallonia (with a German minority)
• Brussels (overwhelmingly French with a Flemish minority, but officially bilingual).

Three communities:
• Flemish Community (Vlaamse Gemeenschap) which consists of the population of Flanders plus Dutch speakers in Brussels,
• French Community (Communauté Française de Belgique), which merges the French speaking majorities of Wallonia and Brussels,
• German Community (Deutsche Germeinschaft Belgiens), i.e. the German speakers of Eastern Wallonia.

[Gaztelu]

A catalan State wouldn't not be able to stop any immigration, be it from the rest of Spain or extra-european.

Do you mean that we Europeans cannot control our own immigration policies?

Or are you saying that because you have no real counter-argument for Catalonian separatism?


Absolutely wrong. You are very poorly informed!

Belgium distinguishes regions (territories) and communities (i.e. ethnicities).

Three regions:
• Flanders (with French minorities)
• Wallonia (with a German minority)
• Brussels (overwhelmingly French with a Flemish minority, but officially bilingual).

Three communities:
• Flemish Community (Vlaamse Gemeenschap) which consists of the population of Flanders plus Dutch speakers in Brussels,
• French Community (Communauté Française de Belgique), which merges the French speaking majorities of Wallonia and Brussels,
• German Community (Deutsche Germeinschaft Belgiens), i.e. the German speakers of Eastern Wallonia.

Thanks for the info.

[Comte Arnau]

La diversidad lingüística es una de las grandes riquezas culturales de España.

Nice empty words. If it was really considered so, they'd be official and promoted à la suisse, and they are not and will never be.


A catalan State wouldn't not be able to stop any immigration, be it from the rest of Spain or extra-european.

It'd be better managed for sure than the way it is being now by the Spanish State.

[Adolfito Bonifaz]

Colonization.

Following your argument, a small town in Spain where there'd be 55% Nigerian immigrants would stop being Spanish and become Nigerian.

Lol at defending history and tradition only when it fits well your biased ideology.

Intra-national migration (by white people) is not immigration.

The Catalans and the Basques are a sub-group of Spaniards, like the Normans are French and Austrians are Germans.


So? Where is that 'Belgian ethnicity'? It simply doesnt' exist, just like the 'Spanish ethnicity' doesn't exist either. Both Belgian and Spanish are nationalities.

In fact, if Spain is not a nation, France, Italy or Germany either.

Obviously Spain is a nation.

And Mallorca has never been Catalonia, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon, and is now Spain.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Made some additional corrections:

http://imageshack.us/m/221/3542/ethnomap1.png

[Comte Arnau]

Intra-national migration (by white people) is not immigration.

Of course it is immigration.


The Catalans and the Basques are a sub-group of Spaniards, like the Normans are French and Austrians are Germans.

What a stupid comparison. So Catalans and Basques are a subgroup of Spaniards in Spain, but a subgroup of the French in France? You are just unable to distinguish ethnicity from nationality.

Andalusians are a subgroup of Spaniards. Catalans, if anything, would rather be a subgroup of Occitans.


In fact, if Spain is not a nation, France, Italy or Germany either.

They are countries.



And Mallorca has never been Catalonia, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon, and is now Spain.

You can say the Earth is flat if you like, but the facts are there: Mallorca was conquered by Catalans -with some help from Occitans, Aragonese and Italians- and Catalan was the language and society there from the 13th century onwards.

And no, it wasn't part of the Kingdom of Aragon. Study the history of your island better, if you're from there at all. James the I made Mallorca a kingdom, independent from the kingdom of Aragon and the County of Barcelona. Kingdom and Crown are different concepts. But if you can't distinguish nationality from ethnicity, I don't expect you to tell a kingdom from a crown...

[Treffie]

Intra-national migration (by white people) is not immigration.

It is when it crosses ethnic borders


The Catalans and the Basques are a sub-group of Spaniards, like the Normans are French and Austrians are Germans.

And the Scots, Welsh are a subgroup of the English? :D

[Pallantides]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_iUdtBwg0Xio/S2_KIW-6wqI/AAAAAAAAAHk/SmL9Jjg3L5Q/s400/sameland.gif

This sort of maps can give of wrong impressions though, the Majority of people in Northern Norway are ethnic Norwegians and the Saami are a miniority.

[Don]

Made some additional corrections:

http://imageshack.us/m/221/3542/ethnomap1.png

Most people of the Red region of the Eastern Part of Iberia would be upset with you by separating them from the rest of Spain. Indeed the independentist movements of the noisy minority of Catalonia has dramatically crushed after the elections of past week by the catalans.

Regarding Valencian Community...ut would be not wise to say to a random Valencian that he is not Spaniard or he is different to a Castilian... Would be even safer to say that to a random andalusian.

Just a suggestion from someone who knows quite well -humbly- my country.

[Comte Arnau]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_iUdtBwg0Xio/S2_KIW-6wqI/AAAAAAAAAHk/SmL9Jjg3L5Q/s400/sameland.gif

This sort of maps can give of wrong impressions though, the Majority of people in Northern Norway are ethnic Norwegians and the Saami are a miniority.

Because they're based on the diachronical concept of 'ethnic territory'. It is obvious that the core/dominant ethnicity of a country is going to occupy those territories from the other ethnicities in a constant process of assimilation.

[Pallantides]

Because they're based on the diachronical concept of 'ethnic territory'. It is obvious that the core/dominant ethnicity of a country is going to occupy those territories from the other ethnicities in a constant process of assimilation.


True, but some people might think they are a majority so it's important to state that they are not, the Saami and Norse areas overlap.:)

Also is map was wrong about the Saami territory, this is the accurate map of Sápmi:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_iUdtBwg0Xio/S2_KIW-6wqI/AAAAAAAAAHk/SmL9Jjg3L5Q/s400/sameland.gif

Though thousand years ago there most likely lived Saami even further south, based on the traces of old Saami settlements excavated in Oppland.

[Comte Arnau]

Most people of the Red region of the Eastern Part of Iberia would be upset with you by separating them from the rest of Spain. Indeed the independentist movements of the noisy minority of Catalonia has dramatically crushed after the elections of past week by the catalans.

Regarding Valencian Community...ut would be not wise to say to a random Valencian that he is not Spaniard or he is different to a Castilian... Would be even safer to say that to a random andalusian.

Just a suggestion from someone who knows quite well -humbly- my country.

Can't you -just for once- separate the concept of political identity from that of ethnicity, that is what this thread is about? Geez, what an obsession. I have friends who are Spanish nationalists and even them recognize that there are different ethnicities within Spain. It's not that hard.

As for Valencians being not different from Castilians, I guess you must be talking about someone from Requena and Utiel, a shire that should belong to Castile instead of to Valencia. Because a Valencian thru and thru is more different from a Castilian than a Portuguese is.

[Gaztelu]

Made some additional corrections:

http://imageshack.us/m/221/3542/ethnomap1.png

You forgot about the Asturians, Bretons, Cornish, Galicians, Occitanians, and Sardinians.

[Ibericus]

Can't you -just for once- separate the concept of political identity from that of ethnicity, that is what this thread is about? Geez, what an obsession. I have friends who are Spanish nationalists and even them recognize that there are different ethnicities within Spain. It's not that hard.

As for Valencians being not different from Castilians, I guess you must be talking about someone from Requena and Utiel, a shire that should belong to Castile instead of to Valencia. Because a Valencian thru and thru is more different from a Castilian than a Portuguese is.
Valencians don't think of themselves as Catalans, sorry.

[Comte Arnau]

Valencians don't think of themselves as Catalans, sorry.

Andalusians don't think of themselves as Castilians, and they are. Different names for the same thing.

Today Majorcans say Ramon Llull was Majorcan (and he was). Back in his day, he considered himself a Catalan. Enough said. :rolleyes:

[Ibericus]

Andalusians don't think of themselves as Castilians
Andalusians consider themselves spaniards.

[Comte Arnau]

Andalusians consider themselves spaniards.

Obviously. There's no problem for Castilians to consider themselves Spaniards, as both terms have become synonymous.

[Ouistreham]

You forgot about the Asturians, Bretons, Cornish, Galicians, Occitanians, and Sardinians.

– "Occitanians" do not exist. It's nothing but an imaginary ethnicity.

Occitania is only the part of France where people speak with a lousy accent.

[Comte Arnau]

– "Occitanians" do not exist. It's nothing but an imaginary ethnicity.

Occitania is only the part of France where people speak with a lousy accent.

And the troubadours sang in Vietnamese.

[Gaztelu]

– "Occitanians" do not exist. It's nothing but an imaginary ethnicity.



I have met Occitanian nationalists who would disagree with that statement.

[Ouistreham]

I have met Occitanian nationalists who would disagree with that statement.

They were half a dozen and you must have seen them all.

Foreigners unaware of French reality are often toying with the idea that Occitania could be a full fledged ethnicity. But it's not and will never be. It's just nonsense.

[Comte Arnau]

They were half a dozen and you must have seen them all.

Foreigners unaware of French reality are often toying with the idea that Occitania could be a full fledged ethnicity. But it's not and will never be. It's just nonsense.

One can discuss whether Occitans form(ed) one single ethnic group or several distinct ones, but their existence cannot be denied. A distinct ethnicity doesn't necessarily mean the current will of forming a political nation.

To be honest, it is a pity that such a great language as this, the first Romance one to write about love and with such a rich vocabulary and troubadour literature, isn't more appreciated by the French government as an outstanding part of the country's cultural heritage.

[Zephyr]

They were half a dozen and you must have seen them all.

Foreigners unaware of French reality are often toying with the idea that Occitania could be a full fledged ethnicity. But it's not and will never be. It's just nonsense.

"it's not and will never be" ? allow me to complete:

"it's not anymore and will never be again".

The French Republic, which is not a nation but a political enterprise, did a great cultural cleansing job.

[Gaztelu]

Oui, Oui, Oui

http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy66/Rijska/800px-SpeakFrenchBeClean.jpg

[Ouistreham]

The French Republic, which is not a nation but a political enterprise, did a great cultural cleansing job.
I love that nonsense!

And the German Federal Republic is doing a cultural cleansing job as long as only Hochdeutsch is taught in schools and not Bavarian, Low-Saxon or Allemanic.

And the Italian State does the same with standard Italian instead of Piedmontese, Sicilian, Lombardic, Venetian, Neapolitan etc.

And in Flanders only standard Dutch is taught instead of Westvlaams or Limburgsch...

And so on.

If you want to cut off the Southern part of France, just remember that by the same token you could split any European political entity in as much dialectal areas as you like. Starting with the Valencian community as opposed to Catalonia!



Oui, Oui, Oui

http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy66/Rijska/800px-SpeakFrenchBeClean.jpg

A well-known fake from the late 60's.
I can show you another famous one :

http://bretagne.blogs.lalibre.be/media/01/00/3d75e7dbef78f875f7cc337be5138241.jpg

[Comte Arnau]

If you want to cut off the Southern part of France, just remember that by the same token you could split any European political entity in as much dialectal areas as you like. Starting with the Valencian community as opposed to Catalonia!


The BIG difference is that Valencian is a Catalan dialect, while the Occitan varieties are not dialects of French.

[Gaztelu]

Ouistreham, whether you like or not, the Occitanian language and culture is part of France. You can't bury it.

[Winterwolf]

I really don't know, what's all the fuss about regionalism.

I like the region where I come from, too, but would I like to have Germany spitted again as it was until the 19th century? Of course not, Germany was weak when it was divided and became easy prey for neighbouring nation states.
It was a long and costly way to form the nation state; destroying that will lead even more into demise.

Of course Catalans, Basques, etc. pretend to be a nation, but most if not all nation states of Europe consist of regions, which had been more or less independent once, have a regional dialect, which is more or less different than the most of the time artificial standard language and have a unique, but still related culture and so on.

But what's the benefit of forming an independent tiny state? Is it about more power or self-governing? You've got to be kidding. A tiny nation becomes even more a pawn in the hands of the powerful - especially in a globalised world of powerblocks.

[Comte Arnau]

Of course Catalans, Basques, etc. pretend to be a nation, but most if not all nation states of Europe consist of regions,

You're right. Catalonia has regions of its own.


But what's the benefit of forming an independent tiny state? Is it about more power or self-governing? You've got to be kidding. A tiny nation becomes even more a pawn in the hands of the powerful - especially in a globalised world of powerblocks.

Is Estonia worse now than as a Russian region? Is Slovenia worse now than as a Yugoslavian region? If it was as you say... how comes NO independent tiny state has wanted to join again to their previous state? :confused:

Some of us prefer to live in a little house of our own than in our brother's big one. It's called emancipation, adult life, dignity, visibility.

[poiuytrewq0987]

You're right. Catalonia has regions of its own.



Is Estonia worse now than as a Russian region? Is Slovenia worse now than as a Yugoslavian region? If it was as you say... how comes NO independent tiny state has wanted to join again to their previous state? :confused:

Some of us prefer to live in a little house of our own than in our brother's big one. It's called emancipation, adult life, dignity, visibility.

Rename Spain to Hispania/Iberian Union then grant full autonomy to Galicia, Basque Country, Catalunya, Valencia and Castile. Problem solved.

[Comte Arnau]

Rename Spain to Hispania/Iberian Union then grant full autonomy to Galicia, Basque Country, Catalunya, Valencia and Castile. Problem solved.

Lol. As if it was a matter of names.

Full autonomy -or what the Spanish Government understands by this- has already been reached, according to them. No more devolution. So now it's either accepting things like they are now or going one step forwards once and for all.

[Winterwolf]

You're right. Catalonia has regions of its own.

Like what? North, South, West and East Catalonia? :D


Is Estonia worse now than as a Russian region?

Estonia isn't a region; the Baltic States are actually different ethnicities from Russians, while Catalans aren't a different ethnicity from Spaniards in my book.


Is Slovenia worse now than as a Yugoslavian region?

Balkans is a whole different topic. Don’t compare it with Spain.


If it was as you say... how comes NO independent tiny state has wanted to join again to their previous state? :confused:

That’s simple, because of EU funding. Most piss poor tiny states wouldn’t be able to live on their own without EU funding.
Catalonia is different here, because it is one of the richest regions in Spain, but most of the time those Eastern European break away “states” aren’t capable to live on their own. Baltic States are an exception here, too, and I fully support their independency.


Some of us prefer to live in a little house of our own than in our brother's big one. It's called emancipation, adult life, dignity, visibility.

For me it’s called destroying a once great nation. I feel sorry for Spain, because next to Italians I like Spaniards the most out of all southern Europeans.

[Comte Arnau]

Like what? North, South, West and East Catalonia? :D

What's up, you don't have cardinal points in Germany?


Estonia isn't a region; the Baltic States are actually different ethnicities from Russians, while Catalans aren't a different ethnicity from Spaniards in my book.

It's not my fault if you've got a crappy book.


That’s simple, because of EU funding. Most piss poor tiny states wouldn’t be able to live on their own without EU funding.
Catalonia is different here, because it is one of the richest regions in Spain, but most of the time those Eastern European break away “states” aren’t capable to live on their own. Baltic States are an exception here, too, and I fully support their independency.

If there's one clear thing is that Catalonia, Flanders or Scotland would be perfectly viable countries from an economic point of view. Not only viable, but much richer than some already independent ones in Western Europe.


For me it’s called destroying a once great nation. I feel sorry for Spain, because next to Italians I like Spaniards the most out of all southern Europeans.

Fortunately it's not up to you. So keep thinking Catalans are Spaniards, I'm sure you'd love the Netherlands to be a German region too, for the glory of the Empire.

[Winterwolf]

What's up, you don't have cardinal points in Germany?

You can guess so, but cardinal points don’t make a region.


It's not my fault if you've got a crappy book.

And it's not my fault, that you're so tunnel-viewed. Can't you see what a united Spain achieved historically?
How much was the degree of Catalonian influence as an important region of Spain in the Reconquista? How much did Catalonians take part in the Spanish Main, forming one of the greatest empires of mankind?
How many Catalonians served in the Tercios, one of the most feared and admired military elite troops of the Early Modern Times?
For a long time Spain was the unmatched and greatest power of Europe, but only, because you were united.

All of this is part of your common and glorious history and people like you want to throw it away. Really, I don't get it, how one could reasonably want to destroy Spain by silly overblown regionalism.


If there's one clear thing is that Catalonia, Flanders or Scotland would be perfectly viable countries from an economic point of view. Not only viable, but much richer than some already independent ones in Western Europe.

Scotland f.e. isn't really rich and pretty much leeches English tax payers' money, so this is a bad example. If they broke away they would have to make a lot of very hard cuts and I wonder what the Scots will think then about independency…
Catalonia on the other side is actually a very rich region, if not one of the most prosperous regions of Spain, but you just belittle yourselves, when you break away from a great nation – and your own region didn’t only take part in it, but was a significant factor in its historic achievements.


Fortunately it's not up to you. So keep thinking Catalans are Spaniards, I'm sure you'd love the Netherlands to be a German region too, for the glory of the Empire.

Of course I continue to think so, because I haven’t heard a single convincing argument, yet. Unfortunately all the recent Spanish governments gave in to hardcore regionalists, which lead to the current situation.
On the Netherlands, no, they broke away early on and have their own language and right of being a nation, unlike Catalonia. Of course I would welcome the Dutch, if it would be their will to reunite, but it’s not likely and I respect that.

[Gaztelu]

I really don't know, what's all the fuss about regionalism.

I like the region where I come from, too, but would I like to have Germany spitted again as it was until the 19th century? Of course not, Germany was weak when it was divided and became easy prey for neighbouring nation states.
It was a long and costly way to form the nation state; destroying that will lead even more into demise.


In Spain, 'regional' differences are deeper than those in Germany.


Of course Catalans, Basques, etc. pretend to be a nation, but most if not all nation states of Europe consist of regions, which had been more or less independent once, have a regional dialect, which is more or less different than the most of the time artificial standard language and have a unique, but still related culture and so on.

Read my response above.



But what's the benefit of forming an independent tiny state? Is it about more power or self-governing? You've got to be kidding. A tiny nation becomes even more a pawn in the hands of the powerful - especially in a globalised world of powerblocks.

There are obvious economic, political, and social/cultural reasons for sovereignty.




Estonia isn't a region; the Baltic States are actually different ethnicities from Russians, while Catalans aren't a different ethnicity from Spaniards in my book.


Thank you for proving to all of us that you truly know almost nothing about Spain.

[Winterwolf]

It's late over here and I'm rather tired, so expect a more serious answer tomorrow or so.

I also don't think that regionalism historically is really more pronounced in Spain. It's a negative phenomenon of the last decades in Spain.

Say Gnorri, aren't you at least a little bit proud of the common historic achievements of Spain as a nation?

[Comte Arnau]

You can guess so, but cardinal points don’t make a region.

And what do you expect me now? To illustrate you here about the Catalan regions? What for? Go to Wikipedia, lol. There's far more regional diversity in little Catalonia than in the whole of Northern Germany.


And it's not my fault, that you're so tunnel-viewed. Can't you see what a united Spain achieved historically?
How much was the degree of Catalonian influence as an important region of Spain in the Reconquista? How much did Catalonians take part in the Spanish Main, forming one of the greatest empires of mankind?
How many Catalonians served in the Tercios, one of the most feared and admired military elite troops of the Early Modern Times?
For a long time Spain was the unmatched and greatest power of Europe, but only, because you were united.

Frankly, I don't feel moved at all by the glories of Castile under the name of Spain. I feel much prouder of the Mediterranean thalassocracy that was Catalonia under the name of Aragon. Probably because I'm a Catalan, not a Castilian.


All of this is part of your common and glorious history and people like you want to throw it away. Really, I don't get it, how one could reasonably want to destroy Spain by silly overblown regionalism.

You're right in one thing: you just can't get it. And I just couldn't care less. Just know one thing: the Catalan people feels themselves as a nation, regardless of what you or Spanish nationalists think. Even those Catalans who are not pro-independence feel Catalonia as a nation. So take that regionalist POV off your mind when talking about Catalonia, because it is not Murcia. And stop comparing Spain to Germany, because it's a stupid analogy.


Catalonia on the other side is actually a very rich region, if not one of the most prosperous regions of Spain, but you just belittle yourselves, when you break away from a great nation – and your own region didn’t only take part in it, but was a significant factor in its historic achievements.

I see you just don't have the slightest idea about our recent economic history and the blatant constant Catalanophobia that exists in Spain. Anyway, who cares? You said you didn't want your nation to be spat on. Why should we Catalans like ours to be so?


Of course I continue to think so, because I haven’t heard a single convincing argument, yet. Unfortunately all the recent Spanish governments gave in to hardcore regionalists, which lead to the current situation.

Now I've got it. I don't know why I've answered so far because you seem just as much a Spanish nationalist as a Spaniard.


On the Netherlands, no, they broke away early on and have their own language and right of being a nation, unlike Catalonia.

Lol. Ok, enough said. If you don't know that Catalan is a language and not a dialect, go read a little before going on with the conversation. As for the right of being a nation, it's up to what a people decides about it. You're not the deliverer of rights, fortunately for the world. :coffee:

[Treffie]

Scotland f.e. isn't really rich

Scotland is extraordinarily rich in resources. North Sea oil maybe reaching a depletion point, but there are huge oilfields in deeper waters which are now being exploited.

[supergiovane]

Italy: Vallée d'Aoste (North-West) should be blue.

naa dude, their patoà is equidistant from italian and french and their gastronomy and folklore are italian. they eat polenta and drink grappa, what's more italian than that, namean?

[Portukalos]

You forgot the Occitanians, the Bretons, and the Cornish peoples.

Hum...."Occitans" are not an ethnic group.

[Zephyr]

And the German Federal Republic is doing a cultural cleansing job as long as only Hochdeutsch is taught in schools and not Bavarian, Low-Saxon or Allemanic.
True! Prussian imperialism was a disaster.


And the Italian State does the same with standard Italian instead of Piedmontese, Sicilian, Lombardic, Venetian, Neapolitan etc.
True again! Like Massimo d'Azeglio wrote in his memories: "We have made Italy. Now we must make Italians."


And in Flanders only standard Dutch is taught instead of Westvlaams or Limburgsch...But those are dialects of the franconian language we call "Dutch", not properly languages of their own with armies.




And so on.

If you want to cut off the Southern part of France, just remember that by the same token you could split any European political entity in as much dialectal areas as you like. Starting with the Valencian community as opposed to Catalonia!

Not entirely true. There are nation-states and multi-national states. Multi-national states tend to be anti-national, that's the problem. Fortunately statism didn't kill ethnic conciousness completely.

Anyway I can't cut anything, I'm a peasant of this life, not a monarch or politician. :p

[Winterwolf]

Thank you for proving to all of us that you truly know almost nothing about Spain.

You can expect me to actually have quite some knowledge about Spain and its history, otherwise I wouldn’t have posted.


And what do you expect me now? To illustrate you here about the Catalan regions? What for? Go to Wikipedia, lol. There's far more regional diversity in little Catalonia than in the whole of Northern Germany.

I consider the Catalonian “regions” artificial, after all the “vegueries“ are a very recent idea of the regional parliament in 2010.
The 4 “historic” provinces of Catalonia also didn’t exist before 1833. They are named after cities, so even this more “historic” division of Catalonia can’t provide real historic region names other than simply naming them after the major town of the particular area.

Your claim that Catalonia has got more regional diversity than whole Northern Germany is really wrong. A region doesn’t consist solely out of topographic differences; it’s the history and culture, which matters. In that regard the differences between Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Schleswig-Holstein and Lower Saxony (even when neglecting the historic subdivisions) are rather pronounced, while the “regions” of Catalonia are a product of fantasy.


Frankly, I don't feel moved at all by the glories of Castile under the name of Spain. I feel much prouder of the Mediterranean thalassocracy that was Catalonia under the name of Aragon. Probably because I'm a Catalan, not a Castilian.

It’s not solely the glory of Castile, others like Aragonese, Basques, Catalans, Galicians, Navarrese and Andalusians also took part in it, while Castile as the centre of power was dominant of course.
You see, even the Mediterranean conquests of the Crown of Aragon happened under another flag, the one of Aragon and not the one of Catalonia. I don’t deny that Catalonia and Valencia were the economic centres of the Crown of Aragon, though.


You're right in one thing: you just can't get it. And I just couldn't care less. Just know one thing: the Catalan people feels themselves as a nation, regardless of what you or Spanish nationalists think. Even those Catalans who are not pro-independence feel Catalonia as a nation. So take that regionalist POV off your mind when talking about Catalonia, because it is not Murcia. And stop comparing Spain to Germany, because it's a stupid analogy.

I doubt that, I’ve also been in Catalonia, namely Barcelona and not everyone there was a separatist.
According to a representative study (http://www.cercleestudissobiranistes.cat/continguts/articleDetall/424) only 35 % of Catalans support independency and 45 % are against it.

In another one (http://www.gencat.cat/economia/doc/doc_28715087_1.pdf) from 2009 only 16 % support a complete break-away, while 35 % support becoming a state within a federal Spain and 38 % prefer the status quo.

You also forgot international law. A region can’t decide solely on its own to become independent, it has to be approved by the respective nation state, too. Unfortunately this rule was broken recently by the illegal creation of Kosovo.

I didn’t compare Spain to Germany in the first place; I just used the history of Germany as an example of how much it used to be a disadvantage to be divided – at least in the past. Unfortunately the EU encourages separation, divide et impera, huh?
In fact you were the one, who made all kinds of comparisons f.e. to Baltic States and Scotland – you even went so far to compare the situation in Spain with Balkans.


I see you just don't have the slightest idea about our recent economic history and the blatant constant Catalanophobia that exists in Spain. Anyway, who cares? You said you didn't want your nation to be spat on. Why should we Catalans like ours to be so?

I am aware of the disputes within the Spanish society, most likely to the same degree as one who actually lives in Spain, but as a Johnny foreigner I do take interest into what happens in Spain, because I like the country.

Of course I don’t want my nation to be spat on, but there was a typo in the post to which you’re referring to. I meant “I don’t want my nation to be splitted/divided again” and just forgot the “l”. (Anyway the term “splitted” is wrong and doesn’t exist, I meant divided.)

I don’t spit on Catalonia and unlike you I argue and discuss in a civilised manner, because I refrain from defaming you as “stupid” or that “you don’t get it” and “know nothing”, just because we tend to disagree on that matter.


Now I've got it. I don't know why I've answered so far because you seem just as much a Spanish nationalist as a Spaniard.

Damn it, now you’ve exposed me. I’m one of those hideous, treacherous and vicious Castilians, who sail under false colours in order to cowardly ambush separatists in internet forums for the greater glory of Castilia. :mmmm:

Maybe you should just realise, that not every Johnny foreigner full-heartedly supports the destruction of Spain by separatists.


Ok, enough said. If you don't know that Catalan is a language and not a dialect, go read a little before going on with the conversation. As for the right of being a nation, it's up to what a people decides about it. You're not the deliverer of rights, fortunately for the world.

I didn’t claim that, you misunderstood me. The “unlike Catalonia” referred to “the right of being a nation.” (Remember international law.)

Unfortunately my Spanish language skills declined in the last years due to the lack of regular practice, but when I was in Barcelona I could speak Castellano quite ok and I didn’t understand signs or ticket infos and so on in Catalan most of the time. But that might be completely different for a native Spanish speaker.
Maybe it’s comparable with Dutch and German, which are very much related languages, but still different enough, so that not everyone will be able to understand the other language without actually having learned it.
I don’t know, so I didn’t and don’t make claims concerning the language barrier, which might exist.

You should get used to the fact, that there are people in this world, who simply disagree with your views. It hasn’t got anything to do with me having a right to decide on Spanish separation and whatnot, but we’ve got free speech (at least still to some degree in Europe, although it’s being continuously restricted due to pc) and if I support Spanish unity, I guess, you’ll have to accept that.


Scotland is extraordinarily rich in resources. North Sea oil maybe reaching a depletion point, but there are huge oilfields in deeper waters which are now being exploited.

Yes, that's true. I forgot that. Anyway I'm pretty much indifferent to Scottish independence.

[Comte Arnau]

I consider the Catalonian “regions” artificial, after all the “vegueries“ are a very recent idea of the regional parliament in 2010.

And who's talking about the vegueries? There are real sub-unities of both physical and cultural realities within Catalonia that trascend any political division of any time. The Empordà, the plains of Lleida, the Camp de Tarragona, the Lands of the Ebre... those are regions encompassing distinct dialects and local subcultures that any Catalan would clearly recognize. Not to mention if I include Valencia and the Isles in it.


The 4 “historic” provinces of Catalonia also didn’t exist before 1833.

Now that is true. A Spanish invention that clustered different regions together and split the historical region of the Penedes into two.


In that regard the differences between Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Schleswig-Holstein and Lower Saxony (even when neglecting the historic subdivisions) are rather pronounced, while the “regions” of Catalonia are a product of fantasy.

Yeah, epic fantasy. And their inhabitants are ghosts.


You see, even the Mediterranean conquests of the Crown of Aragon happened under another flag, the one of Aragon and not the one of Catalonia.

Our flag is the same one, genius.


I doubt that, I’ve also been in Catalonia, namely Barcelona and not everyone there was a separatist.

Can you read? I didn't say there were a majority of secessionists, I said that even those who don't support independence are nationalist or feel Catalonia as a distinct nation within Spain. You only have to see that the party which has got more votes in Catalonia since the end of dictatorship is a nationalist one. And the word 'nation' is stated at the beginning of the Catalan Statute, approved by both the Catalan and the Spanish Governments, in expression of the people's will.


You also forgot international law. A region can’t decide solely on its own to become independent, it has to be approved by the respective nation state, too. Unfortunately this rule was broken recently by the illegal creation of Kosovo.

That rule has been constantly broken when there is an interest for it, otherwise no stateless nation would ever be independent. Yes, Kosovo was the most blatant case. And I'm pretty convinced that Flanders, Scotland and Catalonia will be other 'cases' too within less than twenty years.


I didn’t compare Spain to Germany in the first place; I just used the history of Germany as an example of how much it used to be a disadvantage to be divided – at least in the past. Unfortunately the EU encourages separation, divide et impera, huh?

How funny that most of those who talk about union don't approve of the European one. :coffee:

Nation-states make much more sense than unions by force. Iceland makes more sense than most European countries. Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia were occupied by the Castilian troops at the beginning of the 18th century, our laws being abolished, so it was an act of occupation, a derecho de conquista that's lasted three centuries. Spanish nationalists will deny it, of course, but the documents are there for anyone to see.


In fact you were the one, who made all kinds of comparisons f.e. to Baltic States and Scotland – you even went so far to compare the situation in Spain with Balkans.

I just mentioned Estonia and Slovenia as two cases of recent independent states.



Maybe it’s comparable with Dutch and German, which are very much related languages, but still different enough, so that not everyone will be able to understand the other language without actually having learned it.
I don’t know, so I didn’t and don’t make claims concerning the language barrier, which might exist.

You seemed to, as you said the Dutch had their own language, as if we Catalans hadn't ours. In fact, the relationship between Dutch and German is a closer one, like that of Spanish and Portuguese. Catalan with regard to Spanish would be like Danish with regard to German.


although it’s being continuously restricted due to pc) and if I support Spanish unity, I guess, you’ll have to accept that.

I don't have any problem -I already said I just don't care- as long as you don't lie or simply say rubbish, as you previously did. This latter post of yours was much wiser.

[Gaztelu]

I also don't think that regionalism historically is really more pronounced in Spain. It's a negative phenomenon of the last decades in Spain.

Say Gorri, aren't you at least a little bit proud of the common historic achievements of Spain as a nation?

Of course I am proud of the achievements of the Basques, although it wouldn't make sense to be proud of the achievements of non-Basques. That would be the equivalent of piggy-backing, which is a bad habit of Spanish nationalists.


You can expect me to actually have quite some knowledge about Spain and its history, otherwise I wouldn’t have posted.




Of course Catalans, Basques, etc. pretend to be a nation, but most if not all nation states of Europe consist of regions, which had been more or less independent once, have a regional dialect, which is more or less different than the most of the time artificial standard language and have a unique, but still related culture and so on.




Estonia isn't a region; the Baltic States are actually different ethnicities from Russians, while Catalans aren't a different ethnicity from Spaniards in my book.


Someone who says that Basque and Catalan are 'regional dialects', and that there exists a 'Spanish ethnicity', obviously knows nothing about Spain.


Hum...."Occitans" are not an ethnic group.

They have their own language, culture, customs, and common heritage.

[Ibericus]

Nation-states make much more sense than unions by force. Iceland makes more sense than most European countries. Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia were occupied by the Castilian troops at the beginning of the 18th century, our laws being abolished, so it was an act of occupation, a derecho de conquista that's lasted three centuries. Spanish nationalists will deny it, of course, but the documents are there for anyone to see

What is a nation state ? Please this makes no sense. Stop repeating what you hear in the media. As for , Iceland, apart from having been quite more isolated, for obvious reasons, is actually considered a scandinavian nation, with undeniable ties with the other Norse countries.

[Falkata]

Of course I am proud of the achievements of the Basques, although it wouldn't make sense to be proud of the achievements of non-Basques. That would be the equivalent of piggy-backing, which is a bad habit of Spanish nationalists.


What about all of them?

iFXGWsLO-Bg

[Gaztelu]

What about all of them?

iFXGWsLO-Bg

Of course I am proud of my countrymen. I mentioned that in my previous post.

[Comte Arnau]

What is a nation state ?

Don't pretend you don't know it. A nation-state is that state in which all citizens (or at least an overwhelming majority) belong to the same ethnicity. That is, different from a citizen-state. Or like somebody else here called these concepts: ethnic state vs civic state.

Iceland is the perfect example, because its whole native population belong to the same Icelandic ethnicity. So the country will have its share of problems, but no ethnic tensions whatsoever between the natives, who can feel proud of their country at all levels, all of them.


Stop repeating what you hear in the media.

Lol, if there's someone who does it here, that's you. So stop repeating that sentence, because it looks as if you can only say this when you have nothing to say. I am the only responsible for everything I say. And I say all I say pretty convinced of what I say.


As for , Iceland, apart from having been quite more isolated, for obvious reasons, is actually considered a scandinavian nation, with undeniable ties with the other Norse countries.

Oh, so what's next, saying there is no Icelandic ethnicity, but a Scandinavian one? Well, at least you'd be coherent. If there is a Spanish ethnicity for you, whatever it means, then there must be a Scandinavian ethnicity too.

Frankly, I think you can do better. Most people here don't have any problem in distinguishing between ethnicity and regional affinity.

Besides, you give more importance to genes than to language, don't you? So to you Icelanders should be closer to the Scottish than to the Swedes. :coffee:

[Portukalos]

They have their own language, culture, customs, and common heritage.
Language? hum.. There is no Occitan language this is a totale lie. I have to say that "Occitans" is a modern internet invention.

[Comte Arnau]

Language? hum.. There is no Occitan language this is a totale lie.

May you give us some proof of why we should believe you instead of the world's linguist community?

[Portukalos]

May you give us some proof of why we should believe you instead of the world's linguist community?A text in Provencal of Marseille :

Tóuti li persouno naisson liéuro e egalo en dignita e en dre. Soun doutado de rasoun e de counsciènci e li fau agi entre éli em' un esperit de freiresso.

A text in Gascon (Southwest):

Totas las personas que naishen liuras e egaus en dignitat e en dreit. Que son dotadas de rason e de consciéncia e que'us cau agir enter eras dab un esperit de hrairessa.

The difference's in my opinion enough for a Gascon to not understand a Provencal..

[Comte Arnau]

A in Provencal of Marseille :

Tóuti li persouno naisson liéuro e egalo en dignita e en dre. Soun doutado de rasoun e de counsciènci e li fau agi entre éli em' un esperit de freiresso.

A text in Gascon (Southwest):

Totas las personas que naishen liuras e egaus en dignitat e en dreit. Que son dotadas de rason e de consciéncia e que'us cau agir enter eras dab un esperit de hrairessa.

The difference is enough for a Gascon to not understand a Provencal..


One thing is saying that Gascon could be considered independently from Occitan, something in which we could partly agree. A very different one is saying there's no such thing as an Occitan language, which is blatantly false.

[Gaztelu]

^You beat me to it.

[Ouistreham]

I have to say that "Occitans" is a modern internet invention.
This is largely true.

There has never been anything like an Occitan community with its own conscience. Except perhaps in the 16th century when educated urban classes in Southern massively switched to the Protestant faith, and in the late 17th when erupted a revolt against Protestantism being banned.

But a central fact is that Protestantism was at the same time a major factor of cultural frenchification in the South, with Calvin's French Bible and psalm books being imported from Geneva.

Similarly, Breton activists criticize French "Jacobinism", forgetting that Jacobinism was initially a Breton invention (the Club des Jacobins initially called itself in 1789 "Club Breton").

French history is full of such ironies.


A text in Provencal of Marseille :

Tóuti li persouno naisson liéuro e egalo en dignita e en dre. Soun doutado de rasoun e de counsciènci e li fau agi entre éli em' un esperit de freiresso.

A text in Gascon (Southwest):

Totas las personas que naishen liuras e egaus en dignitat e en dreit. Que son dotadas de rason e de consciéncia e que'us cau agir enter eras dab un esperit de hrairessa.

The difference's in my opinion enough for a Gascon to not understand a Provencal..

Now I beg to differ. Both versions are still strikingly similar in phonetics and syntax, and would largely be mutually intelligible. And native speakers of Gascon and Nissard understand Central Occitan (e.g. of Carcassonne) without any problem.

Court Arnaud is right about it: Occitan is technically a language in its own right and not a cluster of French dialects. But only technically. In social cultural terms it's been since the Middle Ages nothing else than a collection of Southern French dialects.

Its positioning compares exactly to Low-Saxon and other versions of Plattdeutsch: in Germany they are just dying out dialects (you can spend a life in Hamburg without hearing a single word of it), whilst in the Netherlands and Flanders a closely related tongue became an official language — just like Catalan did in Catalonia.

[Treffie]

Language? hum.. There is no Occitan language this is a totale lie. I have to say that "Occitans" is a modern internet invention.

Oh funny, I was reading about Occitanian before the internet.

[Portukalos]

Ouistreham, whether you like or not, the Occitanian language and culture is part of France. You can't bury it.

What means Ouistreham is that there's no Occitan ethnic group. He is right and I've never ever heard in my life a Provencal calling himself an "Occitan".

[Zephyr]

What means Ouistreham is that there's no Occitan ethnic group. He is right and I've never ever heard in my life a Provencal calling himself an "Occitan".

So, and when did Gauls start to call themselves "French"? After the Merovingians? and by what Gauls?

I for once assure you that portuguese and catalan kings wrote poetry in Provençal, not in "French". By the 13th century there was even no such thing as "French". That's a neologism like "Occitan" as well. Gauls were never Franks.

Anyway, it's always the same. Hispanists also say that there's no such thing like "Catalan Countries" and they would surely still deny Portuguese if we had not fought them back for 800 years long. Wait, hardliners still deny. They say we are a "political construct", some sort of english conspiration against the "Holy Catholic Greater Spain".

[Don]

Hispanists also say that there's no such thing like "Catalan Countries"(sic. + LOL)http://geopress.educa.aragon.es/Historia/CastillosyPalacios/romana/Hispania_romana_mapa.gif

Where is wally?

[Comte Arnau]

http://geopress.educa.aragon.es/Historia/CastillosyPalacios/romana/Hispania_romana_mapa.gif

Where is wally?

And where is Spain? I only see a Roman region there. :coffee:

[Zephyr]

Where is wally?

Here:

http://hbdchick.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/iberia-300bc.jpg%3Fw%3D460%26h%3D379http://oi51.tinypic.com/2iw6bua.jpg

Coincidence?

[Comte Arnau]

^ That is partly why a certain sector of pan-Catalan nationalism proposed Iberia as the name for the whole Catalan-speaking area.

[Don]

Here:

http://hbdchick.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/iberia-300bc.jpg%3Fw%3D460%26h%3D379http://oi51.tinypic.com/2iw6bua.jpg

Coincidence?
:p:D:p

Obviously you don't know nothing about these regions or the matter as a whole.



Call to a random local(90%) of any of these regions (From Granada, Murcia, Alicante, Valencia, Albacete, Castellón, Teruel, Zaragoza...) "Catalan" and the best answer you will earn will be a big LAUGH on your face.


NOTE: writes a spaniard that knows quite well Spain.

NOTE II: Hispania sounds quite similar to España. Coincidence?

...


Stupid matter this.

[Comte Arnau]

Call to a random local(90%) of any of these regions (From Granada, Murcia, Alicante, Valencia, Albacete, Castellón, Teruel, Zaragoza...) "Catalan" and the best answer you will earn will be a big LAUGH on your face.

Castelló, Valencia and Alacant are southern Catalans. The fact they prefer to name themselves Valencians is irrelevant, as we weren't talking here about 'self-identifying'. Southern Castilians also name themselves Andalusians and say they're not Castilians.

Aragon and Granada were natural areas of influence of the Catalans -obviously you cannot know this if you're not an expert in linguistics- and Murcia, before being given to the Castilians, spoke the most beautiful Catalan in the world, as the Catalan Chronicles of old say. The one about Peter the Great called the inhabitants of Murcia and southern Valencia vers catalans 'true Catalans' and they spoke lo pus bell catalanesc del món. Murcia would stop talking Catalan in the next centuries, although many Catalan words persist in the Murciano dialect. Enough said.


NOTE II: Hispania sounds quite similar to España. Coincidence?


Lol, you can do better.

[Zephyr]

:p:D:p

Obviously you don't know nothing about these regions or the matter as a whole.



Call to a random local(90%) of any of these regions (From Granada, Murcia, Alicante, Valencia, Albacete, Castellón, Teruel, Zaragoza...) "Catalan" and the best answer you will earn will be a big LAUGH on your face.

You are playing with words and names here. The point is that all those regions have a historical continuum of identity.

One can even call that region Ebroland or whatever matters. Alpino-Meds. Old Iberia. "Anschluss of the Former lands of the Crown of Aragon by the Furore Catholicos" will also be a truthful concept. Choose one.


NOTE: writes a spaniard that knows quite well Spain.

NOTE II: Hispania sounds quite similar to España. Coincidence?

...


Stupid matter this.

Indeed.

As you may know, and should not overlook, Hispania is a roman word which no one knows what really meant, first applied to the eastern part of the Peninsula (Hispania Ulterior and Citerior).

Just like the meaning of Italia was expanded beyond the Rubicon to regions where there was no Italy at all, Hispania was also a broad term expanded with a geographic meaning, by a foreign power: Rome.

It's a geographic term and was later coined to name the Union of the Crowns, specially after the Habsburg imperialists took over. Just like United Kingdom of Great Britain. There were never Britons in Aberdeen, Picts maybe.

Anyway, discussions between royalists and identitarians are pointless. You keep your views, I keep mine. Thanks.

[Comte Arnau]

"Anschluss of the Former lands of the Crown of Aragon by the Furore Catholicos" will also be a truthful concept.

Hahaha, that was a good one! :D

Yes, PanCatalanists are short in their claims. They should claim for Iberia irredenta, Turdetania included! :thumb001:

[Ibericus]

I find it strange that independentists don't want to include Aragón in their plan..We all know why about this hypocrisy.

[Comte Arnau]

I find it strange that independentists don't want to include Aragón in their plan..We all know why about this hypocrisy.

It's not that weird. Most European nationalisms -the Catalan and Spanish included- stem from the Romantic period and drink a lot from the German Volkgeist concept. People from the Crown had always been aware of the dual character of it, hosting the Catalan and Aragonese ethnicities, as many documents clearly show. Romantic nationalism being based on ethnic and cultural essence, what did you expect? The core of Aragon was fully Castilianized by the 18th century, and after the Napoleonic Wars, ideologically Hispanicized.

And yet, I'd still love the whole former Crown to form a federated country again. From a legal point of view, independence would even be easier to achieve, and make more sense. But in practice, it's just impossible.

[Don]

In any case these regions were part of Aragon, for a while.

The Catalonia of Today is just a new invention from an arbitrary selection of heteregeneus group of provinces part of the Aragon Crown whose more fanatic regionalists dare to claim the old territories of Aragon as their own. Just as if somalia would claim all the territories of Islam, from Turkey, Arabia to old Al-andalus, as Somalia.

These minorities of prinvicianos catalan independentists only do these claims in internet forums and sites like that, of course, not in the ground of these regions in the face of the locals of these vast regions. Even they know these fantasies are delusions of grandeur and that these kind of fanatic catalans are almost as hated as a moor in these regions. A logic and deserved answer.

This is a ridiculous matter. Even more to speak about this with a foreigner and one of the provincianos independentist fanatic who says Castilla=Hispania. Enough. :)

[Comte Arnau]

In any case these regions were part of Aragon, for a while.

The Catalonia of Today is just a new invention from an arbitrary selection of heteregeneus group of provinces part of the Aragon Crown whose more fanatic regionalists dare to claim the old territories of Aragon as their own. Just as if somalia would claim all the territories of Islam, from Turkey, Arabia to old Al-andalus, as Somalia.

These minorities of prinvicianos catalan independentists only do these claims in internet forums and sites like that, of course, not in the ground of these regions in the face of the locals of these vast regions. Even they know these fantasies are delusions of grandeur and that these kind of fanatic catalans are almost as hated as a moor in these regions. A logic and deserved answer.

This is a ridiculous matter. Even more to speak about this with a foreigner and one of the provincianos independentist fanatic who says Castilla=Hispania. Enough. :)


I can understand you don't accept Catalan independentism, but I frankly thought your knowledge about these lands was bigger. Thus why I said you could do better. Apparently you can't. You just have your ideas taken from the Spanish nationalism doctrine and repeat the same thing again and again as if showing some arrogance made your statements truer. Maybe for a foreigner they seem so, but from anyone with some real knowledge, your previous post wasn't only poorly constructed, it just lacked any kind of veracity and seriousness, not to say it was plainly ridiculous. I don't know if it's real misinformation or just deliberate intention, but childish in any case. No, you can't do better. Unfortunately.

[Don]

I can understand you don't accept Catalan independentism, but I frankly thought your knowledge about these lands was bigger. Thus why I said you could do better. Apparently you can't. You just have your ideas taken from the Spanish nationalism doctrine and repeat the same thing again and again as if showing some arrogance made your statements truer. Maybe for a foreigner they seem so, but from anyone with some real knowledge, your previous post wasn't only poorly constructed, it just lacked any kind of veracity and seriousness, not to say it was plainly ridiculous. I don't know if it's real misinformation or just deliberate intention, but childish in any case. No, you can't do better. Unfortunately.

I can't do better for your eyes: I don't swallow the delusional fantasies of modern and residual independentist movements of provinces.

[Arus]

The Ukrainians, Hungarians, Serbs and Bulgarians also have done a pretty good job in reducing the Romanian population in their territories, so I don't see your point.

:lol00002:

http://oi52.tinypic.com/n3w55y.jpg
http://oi51.tinypic.com/1zxunpk.jpg
http://oi54.tinypic.com/rmuumx.jpg

Shame on you Vlachland.

Mocskos Oláhország.

:lie:

[Daos]

@Arus: Aside from the insult at the end, I didn't really understand what you're trying to say...:shrug: Try using more words, will you, old chap?;)

[Arus]

@Arus: Aside from the insult at the end, I didn't really understand what you're trying to say...:shrug: Try using more words, will you, old chap?;)

What's the matter, is your goat ill?

[Boudica]

would be nice to know what each color represents..

[BeerBaron]

Its cool, you should include a colour key though imho

[Daos]

What's the matter, is your goat ill?

No, she's quite fine, thank you for asking! Are you looking to buy some milk, or perhaps some cheese?:)

http://anemari.revistatango.ro/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/capra-cu-doi-bani.jpg

[Arus]

No, she's quite fine, thank you for asking! Are you looking to buy some milk, or perhaps some cheese?:)

http://anemari.revistatango.ro/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/capra-cu-doi-bani.jpg

No thanks, I'm vegan.

Therein lies the source of my personal bias, if you wish, with the Romanian nation and people. Your entire history is that of the nomad-manipulator ( herder, jewish ) archetype. Hungarians on the other hand, as they settled in the Carpatho-Danubian basin in several migratory waves ranging from the Huns of Attila ( Székelys ) to the main body of Magyars of Árpád and prior to that, have engaged in an agrarian lifestyle of ploughing and cultivating the land that is reminiscent of the warrior-farmer ( Aryan ) archetype, no doubt hereditary from their roots in the agricultural Sumerian civilization. You Romanians-Vlachs or whatever you call yourselves, are descendants of semi-nomadic shepherder-tribalists that sprung forth off inferior and ignoble genetic mutations, and not of those, like Hungarians, whose history and archetype is associated with those who ploughed fields, raised crops and treated animals with fairness, like the ancient Aryans.

Ofcourse there are exceptions, like St. Corneliu Zelea Codreanu, whom is simply a model of life.

[Daos]

Your entire history is that of the nomad-manipulator ( herder, jewish ) archetype.

:dielaughing: I almost choked on the irony...

There's more than enough archaeological evidence to prove that our ancestors were agrarian and not nomads. I don't feel like I need to comment on the rest.

Bolund...:loco:

[Waidewut]

I disagree with the distribution of Russians in Lithuania, according to the map. They are
only about 5% of the population, thus they dont cover 50 % of Lithuania

[W. R.]

I disagree with the distribution of Russians in Lithuania, according to the map. They are
only about 5% of the population, thus they dont cover 50 % of LithuaniaInto Russians (at least in the Vilnius area) the author included people whom others categorize as Poles and/or Belarusians.

[Peerkons]

Into Russians (at least in the Vilnius area) the author included people whom others categorize as Poles and/or Belarusians.

There are none in Klaipēda and Tauraģe region.

[Waidewut]

:) I just noticed that nowadays Saaremaa is ethnicaly Latvian, according to the map.

[Peerkons]

Map of Slavs in Baltic states

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6737/431pxbalticstatesregion.png

[Östsvensk]

Southwest Finland (Nyland) should be partially marked as Swedish. The very northeast part of Sweden (Haparanda area) could also be marked as Finnish.

Also, marking the very South Swedish areas as Danish is quite pushing it.

[lI]

Another issue is marking Navarra as predominantly Basque when it clearly isn't:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Navarra_-_Mapa_densidad_euskera_2001.svg

Yet another one is marking Belarus the same colour as Russia when it's only 11.5% Russian and 81% Belarusian.

Slovaks and Czechs are not exactly the same either, are they?


Into Russians (at least in the Vilnius area) the author included people whom others categorize as Poles and/or Belarusians.Even if that was the case (which I doubt because he chose different colours for Poland and Russia), the colouring in the first map still makes no sense - wikipedia states Lithuania's ethnic composition as:

"83.1% Lithuanians,
6.0% Poles,
4.8% Russians,
1.1% Belarusians,
5.0% others and unspecified"

[W. R.]

Map of Slavs in Baltic states

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6737/431pxbalticstatesregion.pngLet's redraw the borders (http://i40.tinypic.com/29og42a.jpg). :swl

[Äike]

Let's redraw the borders (http://i40.tinypic.com/29og42a.jpg). :swl

That map is exaggerating with the stripes in Northern-Estonia.

Anyway, I think that a proper ethnic cleansing/deportation is in order.

[Äike]

:) I just noticed that nowadays Saaremaa is ethnicaly Latvian, according to the map.

Yeah, you would wish that.

I doubt that there's even a single Balt living in Saaremaa, it's the most Estonian part of Estonia. :)

There's one big problem, the people who make these kinds of maps, aren't usually quite bright. It is a well known fact that Latvia doesn't own a single island, while Estonia has 1500+ islands.

[Waidewut]

Yeah, you would wish that.

I doubt that there's even a single Balt living in Saaremaa, it's the most Estonian part of Estonia. :)

There's one big problem, the people who make these kinds of maps, aren't usually quite bright. It is a well known fact that Latvia doesn't own a single island, while Estonia has 1500+ islands.

Actually I see no usage or advantages of the large amount of islands in Estonia, so, no, I dont wish Saaremaa was Latvian. I was just notifying a mistake

[Peerkons]

Actually I see no usage or advantages of the large amount of islands in Estonia, so, no, I dont wish Saaremaa was Latvian. I was just notifying a mistake

Tourism gives taxes. :)

[Nurzat]

here's a funny and wrong map i made, just for entertainment, don't get mad

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/7070/europaj.jpg

now bulgarians, hungarians, greeks, serbians, albanians, sardinians, dutch, brits, latvians, germans, russians and danes should love me

[El Palleter]

Castelló, Valencia and Alacant are southern Catalans. The fact they prefer to name themselves Valencians is irrelevant, as we weren't talking here about 'self-identifying'.Rather the fact that apart from Western Catalan settlers Valencia was repopulated with Aragonese, Occitans, Navarrans, Castilians etc Valencian is a Reconquista identity, not just Catalan

The shortage of Catalan settlers was due to the characteristical feudal system in Catalonia of the pagesos de remença, or peasant serfdom. The Catalan noblemen were unkeen on supplying new settlers as theirs were tied to their lands by this feudalistic bondage.

This feudal bondage in Catalonia, similar to Eastern European, was influenced by Central Europe through the Carolingian overlordship of Catalonia. It's also related to the fet diferencial (differencial fact) of the Catalan character.

It was unlike in Castile where the system had been based on free people since its inception.

The remensas, Catalan serfdom, were finally abolished by the new reigning dinasty of Trastamara (Castilian). First Alfons el Magnànim freed the Catalan people from the bondage of serfdom, but the opposition and resistance of the Catalan nobles helped by the Generalitat forced him to retract. His brother Joan el Gran, with the Catalan people on his side, engaged in a civil war against the nobles. He improved the conditions of serfdom but didn't remove it completely. It was his son Ferdinand (the Catholic King) who did.

For what I know the model of repopulation of Valencia (and probably Southern Catalonia) was similar to the Castilian system of free settlers. This adds more to the difference of Valencian identity compared to Catalan.

Little surprise that Valencians have always rejected any identification with Catalan serf identity and, according to their noble and free character they've never abhorred of their Spanish identity


Southern Castilians also name themselves Andalusians and say they're not Castilians.They are not Castilians. They are part of the Crown of Castile.

The Andalusian character is not only different to Castilian but most often opposed.


It's not that weird. Most European nationalisms -the Catalan and Spanish included- stem from the Romantic period and drink a lot from the German Volkgeist concept.Not Spanish patriots. Catalan nationalism however


I can understand you don't accept Catalan independentism, but I frankly thought your knowledge about these lands was bigger. Thus why I said you could do better. Apparently you can't.Not that you've done well.

If you were to stick to reality you'd change that user name "Count Arnau" by "pagès de remença" or "Catalan serf" :P


You just have your ideas taken from the Spanish nationalism doctrine and repeat the same thing again and again as if showing some arrogance made your statements truer.Don't you do the same and much worse?


Maybe for a foreigner they seem so, but from anyone with some real knowledge, your previous post wasn't only poorly constructed, it just lacked any kind of veracity and seriousness, not to say it was plainly ridiculous. I don't know if it's real misinformation or just deliberate intention, but childish in any case. No, you can't do better. Unfortunately.That sounds like yours too. With the big difference that you, as a Catalan, should have known better.

You quote a Catalan-Aragonese king saying that the language spoken in parts of Southern Valencia is the "most true Catalan", pretending that it should be evidence that Valencians are Catalans (ignoring that the formation of the Valencian people and identity was much more complex than just that, and a language is not all that defines identity).

But you reject the quotes of Catalan-Aragonese kings identifying as Spanish:

"Barons we may leave now, today we have honoured Spain to say the least"
(Jaume el Conqueridor to his Catalan and Aragonese subjects, after an argument against the Templar Knights who opposed to give a tithe of Christendom for a Crusade)

Indecent

[Waidewut]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdReh4le7x0
This is how Europe should be :)

[El Palleter]

Here:

http://hbdchick.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/iberia-300bc.jpg%3Fw%3D460%26h%3D379It's not certain that the Bastetani were Iberians. They are known to have been hostile to Iberian tribes. They must have been "turdetanised" at least.

[Arus]

:dielaughing: I almost choked on the irony...

There's more than enough archaeological evidence to prove that our ancestors were agrarian and not nomads. I don't feel like I need to comment on the rest.

Bolund...:loco:

What? You mean Dacians? Don't be ridiculous. Dacians, whose ancestors were Thracians whom were believed to be part of the 'Getae' family of Eastern Europe were most likely Scythians which gives Hungarians more justification to claim Dacian heritage than do Vlachs.

Your history and culture revolves around exploiting goats and sheep through herding. Even in archaic South Slavic tongues the term vlach used to have the meaning of "shepherd", due to the fact that almost all Romanians were herd-breeders. Unlike Vlachs, Hungarians have used horse and bull for milennias and are the icons of an agrarian society. The bull is also the icon of Aryandom, Plato even recorded about Atlantean bull worship, then there was Minoan bull worship, too. Bull is the zodiac symbol of the Golden Age. Golden, not in that of the metal, which is associated with jews in name of profit with family names such as 'Goldman', 'Goldberg' et c. But Golden for the colour of wheat fields sowed by the help of the bull, thus the Golden Age is the agrarian age. We see it in the myth about Romulus who sacred borders of Rome by ploughing and rightfully killed Remus who mocked his work, just like Cain killed Abel for his sacrifice of lambs. In Moldavia, the nomadic Vlachs streaming in from Wallachia had to be taught agriculture by the Hungarian Csangós who were already stationed there. Hungarians were even first to translate the Bible into Romanian because you were too primitive to do so by yourselves, and hadn't needed one before for you were all illiterate, like most nomads. Unlike the bull, an animal alien to the archaic Vlach, the goat or sheep can not pull the weight of your crate or plough your wheat field, thus a group of people whose entire life revolves around sheep and goats could never establish a permanent settlement for it would lack the means to agriculture, thus they resorted to nomadism, constantly looking for new pastures for their herd, from Albania to Bulgaria and then to Wallachia, Moldavia and Transylvania like wandering locusts.

Aryans:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Arpadfeszty.jpg

Not Aryans:
http://oi55.tinypic.com/2laakd5.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

Persians invented the term Aryan not Nazis... so only the Persians can be true Aryans. :thumbs up

http://www.parstimes.com/gallery/mehregan_2006/23.jpg

[Arus]

Persians invented the term Aryan not Nazis... so only the Persians can be true Aryans. :thumbs up

The strict meaning of the word can only be one, from Sanskrit, Aryan; Nobleman or Noble person, pertaining to Arya; Way of Nobility; overcoming naturally conditioned tendencies and transforming towards perfection = the purpose of National Socialism.

Associated with the Farmer archetype. The term “Aryan” derives from the root ”ar-” meaning “to till soil”.

“Our ancestors were all peasants. There were no hunters amongst them — hunters are only degenerate peasants.” – Adolf Hitler

[Äike]

The strict meaning of the word can only be one, from Sanskrit, Aryan; Nobleman or Noble person, pertaining to Arya; Way of Nobility; overcoming naturally conditioned tendencies and transforming towards perfection = the purpose of National Socialism.

In Estonian and Finnish the word (Orja/Ori) for "Slave" derives from the word "Aryan".

The Aryans are noble slaves. :p

[Arus]

In Estonian and Finnish the word (Orja/Ori) for "Slave" derives from the word "Aryan".

The Aryans are noble slaves. :p

That's intriguing but contradictory. To be Aryan, that is to be Noble, is the refusal to accept slavery whether it is targeted to you, or to others, human or non-human.

Nobility is none other than devotion to freedom. Arya (also known as Gnosis in Christianity, Jihad in Islam, Kampf in National Socialism) is – profoundly understood – the quest for freedom. Whoever is innately driven to fight for freedom is an Aryan.

“I fight with my people for undoing injustice, and others fight to maintain it.” - Adolf Hitler

Or it could mean that ''Slaves'' are Aryan.

''It's not the persecuter, who is powerful, it's the persecuted!''- Szálasi Ferenc

Albeit, you can't be a slave unless you accept the terms of the slavemaster and accept slavery, thus breaking the Way of Nobility, so to be a slave is as genuinely understood, ignoble and un-Aryan.

A more likely and easier explanation would be that those words sprung forth from another source altogether.

Nevertheless, an enigma it is, and so it shall be.

[W. R.]

In Estonian and Finnish the word (Orja/Ori) for "Slave" derives from the word "Aryan".

The Aryans are noble slaves. :pAre we? :icon_mad:

As an Aryan I'd like to point out that 'arya' was an Iranian loanword (thus comparatively late) and meant just 'a man'.

[Äike]

That's intriguing but contradictory. To be Aryan, that is to be Noble, is the refusal to accept slavery whether it is targeted to you, or to others, human or non-human.

Nobility is none other than devotion to freedom. Arya (also known as Gnosis in Christianity, Jihad in Islam, Kampf in National Socialism) is – profoundly understood – the quest for freedom. Whoever is innately driven to fight for freedom is an Aryan.

“I fight with my people for undoing injustice, and others fight to maintain it.” - Adolf Hitler

Or it could mean that ''Slaves'' are Aryan.

''It's not the persecuter, who is powerful, it's the persecuted!''- Szálasi Ferenc

Albeit, you can't be a slave unless you accept the terms of the slavemaster and accept slavery, thus breaking the Way of Nobility, so to be a slave is as genuinely understood, ignoble and un-Aryan.

A more likely and easier explanation would be that those words sprung forth from another source altogether.

Nevertheless, an enigma it is, and so it shall be.

Your noble Aryans were kept as slaves by Finno-Ugric hunter-gatherers. ;)

And no, the words orja and ori do not come from a different source.

[W. R.]

Your noble Aryans were kept as slaves by Finno-Ugric hunter-gatherers. ;)If your Finno-Ugric hunter-gatherers were such tough guys, why have their languages remained only at the outskirts of Europe? ;)

[Arus]

Are we? :icon_mad:

As an Aryan I'd like to point out that 'arya' was an Iranian loanword (thus comparatively late) and meant just 'a man'.

Bollocks. Intrinsically, in its most fundamental sense, Arya means an effort or an uprising and overcoming. The Aryan is he who strives and overcomes all outside him and within him that stands opposed to the human advance.

The Aryan rootrace is since long gone, with but a few traces on the surface world. Our purpose and ideal is through a long-term Aryanization program re-create the biological and spiritual Aryan that once vanished in the tide of decadence, and one day make Aryan synonymous with human, but that day is far ahead.

"If one wished to describe the history of the Aryans, he would have to admit that today the Aryan has vanished except for a few very small traces."
-- Alfred Rosenberg

''He who has courage, loyalty and honor, the mark of the German, has the race that should rule in Germany, even if he does not have the physical characteristics of the "Nordic" race. The unity of the noble and a noble body is the goal to which we strive. But we despise those whose noble body carries an ignoble soul.'' ~ 'Faith and Action'

''Race, with a capital letter, no longer exists in this darkest time of the earth. It is something that once was, and to which one claims to return as to an ideal. As with Greek statues, whose models were never present. But it is a duty to aim at this perfection and this transmutation. This and nothing else was what Hitler taught us, the priviledged generation who lived during his time.'' ~Miguel Serrano

The Aryan is the ideal. He is the past, he is the future. Arya is the force behind it.

By associating it with the modern stinking bunch of what you call 'man' you bastardize our vocabulary.

[W. R.]

By associating it with the modern stinking bunch of what you call 'man' you bastardize our vocabulary.Wikipedia forevah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language):

Often quoted loan examples are kuningas "king" and ruhtinas "prince, high ranking nobleman" from Germanic *kuningaz and *druhtinaz, but another example is äiti "mother", from Gothic aiþei, which is interesting because borrowing of close-kinship vocabulary is a rare phenomenon. The original Finnish emo occurs only in restricted contexts. There are other close-kinship words that are loaned from Baltic and Germanic languages (morsian "bride", armas "dear", huora "whore"). Examples of the ancient Iranian loans are vasara "hammer" from Avestan vadžra, vajra and orja "slave" from arya, airya "man" (the latter probably via similar circumstances as slave from Slav in many European languages).

Also this: http://www.tiede.fi/arkisto/artikkeli.php?id=687&vl=2006

[Arus]

Your noble Aryans were kept as slaves by Finno-Ugric hunter-gatherers. ;)

Aryan is a universal concept, it is not restricted to and does not exclude any ethno-linguistic or racial grouping. Finns can fare perfectly well being Aryan, at a higher chance, perhaps, than their contemporary neighbours be it homosexual Swedes or alcoholic Russians :). Hitler, Himmler and Rosenberg among others always held the Finns at a specially high regard. Even individuals of Jewish descent can fit the label Aryan, provided they fit the criteria everyone else does and that they voluntarily don't reproduce.


Wikipedia forevah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language):

Often quoted loan examples are kuningas "king" and ruhtinas "prince, high ranking nobleman" from Germanic *kuningaz and *druhtinaz, but another example is äiti "mother", from Gothic aiþei, which is interesting because borrowing of close-kinship vocabulary is a rare phenomenon. The original Finnish emo occurs only in restricted contexts. There are other close-kinship words that are loaned from Baltic and Germanic languages (morsian "bride", armas "dear", huora "whore"). Examples of the ancient Iranian loans are vasara "hammer" from Avestan vadžra, vajra and orja "slave" from arya, airya "man" (the latter probably via similar circumstances as slave from Slav in many European languages).

Also this: http://www.tiede.fi/arkisto/artikkeli.php?id=687&vl=2006

I thought you meant the universal and original definition, rather than Finnish specifically.

[Osweo]

Another issue is marking Navarra as predominantly Basque when it clearly isn't:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Navarra_-_Mapa_densidad_euskera_2001.svg
The map shows language retention, I think. The Castilian speakers in the south may still identify as Bask.

Are we? :icon_mad:

As an Aryan I'd like to point out that 'arya' was an Iranian loanword (thus comparatively late) and meant just 'a man'.
Hmmm? Are you implying that there's a word 'arya' in your language? :confused:

Oh, and Arus is clearly a crazy man. :clap:

[W. R.]

Hmmm? Are you implying that there's a word 'arya' in your language? :confused:No. I used the word 'Aryan' instead of 'Indo-European', as a speaker of one of the Indo-European languages. The meaning must be obsolete now though. :chin:

[Osweo]

No. I used the word 'Aryan' instead of 'Indo-European', as a speaker of one of the Indo-European languages. The meaning must be obsolete now though. :chin:

Yeah, it is a pretty stupid name for it. Unfortunately, 'Indo-European' is also pretty stupid too. Makes as much sense as 'Nordo-Srilankan' or 'Russo-Spanish' :(

If I had my way, we'd call it the 'oino-duo-tri language' or something like that. Maybe use another word we all have.... :shrug:

By the way, I was translating some Belorussky today! :eek: Do you know about the komoyeditsa prazdnik (from your Polesye, I believe), and the Yasha khorovod? :p

[poiuytrewq0987]

Yeah, it is a pretty stupid name for it. Unfortunately, 'Indo-European' is also pretty stupid too. Makes as much sense as 'Nordo-Srilankan' or 'Russo-Spanish' :(

If I had my way, we'd call it the 'oino-duo-tri language' or something like that. Maybe use another word we all have.... :shrug:

By the way, I was translating some Belorussky today! :eek: Do you know about the komoyeditsa prazdnik, and the Yasha khorovod? :p

Why is it stupid? IE is pretty appropriate to explain various European languages' origin.

[Osweo]

Why is it stupid? IE is pretty appropriate to explain various European languages' origin.

I think the idea behind 'Indo-European', is simply to indicate the present day geographic distribution.

The Germans say 'Indo-Germanische' to indicate the furthest extremes of the present range.

I think that these terms confuse too many people, who somehow interpret them to think that these languages came FROM India. This is utterly stupid, but terribly common on the net! :eek:

Also, there are other language families in Europe and India. Why should ours take the names?

IE expresses little about the actual nature or origin of our languages.

[W. R.]

Do you know about the komoyeditsa prazdnik (from your Polesye, I believe), and the Yasha khorovod? :pYasha khorovod? :eek: :confused:

But I do know about Kamajedzica; there is a pagan metal band in Belarus named after the holiday, by the way. :viking4:

[Äike]

If your Finno-Ugric hunter-gatherers were such tough guys, why have their languages remained only at the outskirts of Europe? ;)

Agriculture and animal husbandry is superior to foraging and hunting. :(

Thus it makes sense that the least hospitable places in Europe have kept their native European languages. Finland and Estonia are the 2 boggiest/marshiest countries in the world, by the way.

But I cannot see how Finno-Ugric hunter-gatherers couldn't have kept some "Aryans" as slaves, when they inhabited areas where their way of life was superior to Aryan agriculture and animal husbandry. :p

It's pretty obvious where the words orja(Finnish) and ori(Estonian) came from.

[Arus]

Oh, and Arus is clearly a crazy man. :clap:

That's something I expect to hear from a Jew or their occasional brainwashed helper, not of one who is, a so called, intellectual person. If your brain is incapable of understanding the most fundamental of truths, then blaiming your lack of intellectual understanding on me being crazy is a much more easier and comfortable resort.

[Albion]

Agriculture and animal husbandry is superior to foraging and hunting. :(

Thus it makes sense that the least hospitable places in Europe have kept their native European languages. Finland and Estonia are the 2 boggiest/marshiest countries in the world, by the way.

But I cannot see how Finno-Ugric hunter-gatherers couldn't have kept some "Aryans" as slaves, when they inhabited areas where their way of life was superior to Aryan agriculture and animal husbandry. :p

It's pretty obvious where the words orja(Finnish) and ori(Estonian) came from.

Key question: Why would hunter gatherers keep many slaves??? Thta's more mouths to feed.

Native American H/G didn't really keep slaves, they were put to death.

[Groenewolf]

But I cannot see how Finno-Ugric hunter-gatherers couldn't have kept some "Aryans" as slaves, when they inhabited areas where their way of life was superior to Aryan agriculture and animal husbandry. :p

Mostly because hunter-gathers did not hold slaves, because they could afford watching over slaves. It is only in sufficiently productive agricultural or more advanced forms of economics that slave labor becomes possible. Since only then one can afford the necessary measures to keep those slaves in a safe way.

[EWtt]

Agriculture and animal husbandry is superior to foraging and hunting. :(

Thus it makes sense that the least hospitable places in Europe have kept their native European languages. Finland and Estonia are the 2 boggiest/marshiest countries in the world, by the way.

I think these factors have more to do with the ancient Finnics in Baltic lands adopting IE speech and us more northern Baltic-Finnics retaining the language.

Finno-Ugrics were still spread over a vast area of today's Russia when the East-Slavs came along. Various Finno-Ugric nations were among the co-founders of Rus', there was the Votic pyatina in Novgorod and all. I think the adoption of Eastern Orthodoxy might have paved the way for Russification of the Finno-Ugric upper classes in Russia. The main blows certainly were the Russification policies of the Russian Empire and those of the Soviet Union. You had to become a Russian to advance in society. In case of Livonians, there of course were Latvianization policies in Latvia.

Not that many Estonians and Finns didn't become either Germanized or Swedified throughout the Middle Ages. But Estonians and Finns had education, the people were highly literate, there was a proper national awakening, people advanced the culture and national identity, plus spilt blood for independence. So, considering more recent times it doesn't matter how marshy the land was or not. Finnics in Russia lacked the various developments Finns and Estonians had, and eventually succumbed to Russification...

[Äike]

Key question: Why would hunter gatherers keep many slaves??? Thta's more mouths to feed.

Native American H/G didn't really keep slaves, they were put to death.


Mostly because hunter-gathers did not hold slaves, because they could afford watching over slaves. It is only in sufficiently productive agricultural or more advanced forms of economics that slave labor becomes possible. Since only then one can afford the necessary measures to keep those slaves in a safe way.

Don't crush my dream of Finno-Ugric hunter-gatherers having noble Aryan slaves. :p


Not that many Estonians and Finns didn't become either Germanized or Swedified throughout the Middle Ages. But Estonians and Finns had education, the people were highly literate, there was a proper national awakening, people advanced the culture and national identity, plus spilt blood for independence. So, considering more recent times it doesn't matter how marshy the land was or not. Finnics in Russia lacked the various developments Finns and Estonians had, and eventually succumbed to Russification...

The thing is, if Estonia would have been better suited for agriculture then the Indo-Europeans could have advanced as far north as the gulf of Finland, not stopped at the Daugava river, where the terrain became less hospitable. Thus the Livonians and the Estonians were still there around 1000 AD, while Finno-Ugric groups further south had been assimilated already.

[Osweo]

Yasha khorovod? :eek: :confused:
Ahem, I pass the floor to Gospodin Rybakov;

Труден путь хронологической расшифровки этнографических загадок. Иногда мы можем уловить момент забвения первоначального смысла того или иного явления, определить верхний, поздний предел его осмысленного бытования, но бываем бессильны указать его истоки, его первичные формы, время его возникновения.

Автору этих строк, как и многим людям его поколения, была хорошо известна в начале XX в. широко распространенная по всей России детская хороводная игра, состоявшая в том, что мальчика сажали посреди круга и он должен был выбирать себе из числа девочек «невесту». Хоровод двигался вокруг водящего и пел, прихлопывая в ладоши:

Сиди-сиди, Яша, под ореховым кустом,
Грызи-грызи, Яша, орешки каленые, милою дареные.
Чок-чок, пятачок, вставай, Яша, дурачок,
Где твоя невеста, в чем она одета?
Как её зовут? И откуда привезут?

Загадочно было то, что во всех губерниях России центральная фигура игры именовалась «Яшей», хотя это не требовалось ни рифмой, ни каким-нибудь ассонансом. Разгадку дало обраще-
ние к белорусским записям середины XIX в.
Сядить Ящер Сяде Ящер под пирялущем
У золотым кресле, На ореховым кусте,
У оряховым кусте Где ореховая лусна,
Орешачки луще. – Возьми собе девку,
– Жанитися хочу, Котораю хочешь…75
– Возьми собе панну,
Котораю хочешь,
Котораю любишь…

Во времена Безсонова и в русских областях упоминался не Яша, а Ящер. (См. [примеч]. к № 17 на с. 81.) На месте непонятного Яши оказался архаичный Ящер, хозяин подводно-подземного мира. Игра, изображающая выбор невесты Ящером, может являться трансформацией древнего обряда принесения девушек в жертву дракону-ящеру. Отголоском таких жертвоприношений является поверье, что водяные женятся на утопленницах 76.

Признаки культа ящера-«крокодила» особенно заметны в Новгороде, где их можно проследить до X в. н. э., но истинную хронологическую глубину этого бесспорно архаичного культа мы определить не можем. Удалось лишь уловить момент окончательного забвения старого содержания: на рубеже XIX и XX столетий Ящер заменился Яшей.

From his Yazychestvo Drevnikh Slavyan.


But I do know about Kamajedzica; there is a pagan metal band in Belarus named after the holiday, by the way. :viking4:
Haha! :p I hate metal, mostly, but great to see that these names are kept in current consciousness. It is after all a VERY old name...

Праздник назывался «комоедицы». У древних греков тоже был весенний медвежий праздник, и он назывался «комедией» (от «комос» – медведь). От веселых песен, плясок и шуток этого медвежьего карнавала пошло и позднейшее наше название комедии. Следовательно, традицию белорусских комоедиц необходимо возводить по крайней мере к далекому индоевропейскому единству, когда одно и то же название одинаково означало охотничий медвежий праздник.

;)

[Comte Arnau]

Since most of you don't favour small countries, let's stop the bullshit and get for real, Europe into only four metaethnic countries. Period.

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/9378/eumetaethn.jpg

[Patriota]

Catalonia is Spain.

[Comte Arnau]

Catalonia is Spain.

Yes, that's why Burgos is in Catalonia.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Since most of you don't favour small countries, let's stop the bullshit and get for real, Europe into only four metaethnic countries. Period.

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/9378/eumetaethn.jpg

Kosovo je Jugoslavija!

[Comte Arnau]

Kosovo je Jugoslavija!

Kosovo i Jugoslavija su Balkania. :)

[Sikeliot]

I see something wrong with that map.. Finland and Estonia aren't Germanic. ;)

[Comte Arnau]

I see something wrong with that map.. Finland and Estonia aren't Germanic. ;)

They had to choose between belonging to Germania or Severoslavia and they chose the first option. ;)

[poiuytrewq0987]

Catalunya es Espana.

[Arus]

Since most of you don't favour small countries, let's stop the bullshit and get for real, Europe into only five metaethnic countries. Period.

http://oi56.tinypic.com/1zfio8h.jpg

Fixed

[Äike]

I see something wrong with that map.. Finland and Estonia aren't Germanic. ;)

Neither is Ireland, for example. ;)

[W. R.]

FixedYou forgot to replace the name "Severoslavia" with "Greater Belarus". :shakefist

[Zephyr]

Fixed

What's with the size of Hungaria? I didn't know Attila was still around.

[AntonyCapolongo]

This map is crap.