TMRCA of my haplogroup was around year 247 AD

[Peterski]

According to YTree estimates, Mr. L617, our ancestor, lived around year 247 AD:

https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=618

This is much younger than TMRCA for L617 according to YFull.

But it makes more sense to me because L617 is not very numerous.

If it was really as old as YFull claims, there would be more of us.

Also the distribution of L617 match perfectly with Vandals and Lugians.

Perhaps it emerged around 247 AD somewhere near the Vistula or Warta Rivers.

[Peterski]

TMRCA estimates according to YTree website:

R1b-DF27 - year 2565 BC
R1b-ZZ12 - year 2227 BC
R1b-Z2552 - year 1040 BC
R1b-L617 - year 247 AD

[Peterski]

TMRCA estimates according to YTree website:

(...)
R1b-L617 - year 247 AD

YFull claims that we are much older (ca. 1580 BC), I wonder why?:

https://i.imgur.com/vgGtSmq.png

[Peterski]

This is apparently where Vandals / Lugians lived in 247 AD:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/genealogy/images/d/d6/Germanen_50_n._Chr.png/revision/latest?cb=20071105215719

Check "Barbarian Tsunami", publication in English:

http://www.mpov.uw.edu.pl/userfiles/pl/Badania/Publikacje/tsunamiinternetzokladka.pdf

http://www.mpov.uw.edu.pl/en/

[Joso]

Amazing

[tipirneni]

Do you get any big match on GED from north Africa?

[Wrong]

Probably the inventor of yogurt.

[Peterski]

Mr. L617 could as well be a Roman soldier helping the Lugii against the Suevi (Suebi). Check this article:

http://archaeologyinbulgaria.com/2018/05/10/first-ever-traces-of-roman-military-presence-in-poland-discovered-by-archaeologists-in-kujawy-region/ - in English

http://naukawpolsce.pap.pl/aktualnosci/news%2C29296%2Carcheolog-mamy-dowody-na-obecnosc-rzymskich-legionistow-na-terenie-polski

^^^
"Based on the writings of Cassius Dio, Emperor Domitian sent 100 cavalry as support for the Lugii in their war against the Suevi. We cannot exclude the possibility that some of discovered items were parts of equipment of those soldiers." - say archaeologists.

=====

Also during Emperor Nero's reign, there was Roman expedition to the Baltic Sea for amber, and they reached the Baltic Sea.

Pliny (XXXVII, 45) wrote:

"There is still living a member of the equestrian order, who was sent thither by Julianus, the manager of the gladiatorial exhibitions for the Emperor Nero, to procure a supply of this article. Traversing the coasts of that country and visiting the various markets there, he brought back amber, in such vast quantities, as to admit of the nets, which are used for protecting the podium against the wild beasts, being studded with amber."

Source: book "Vistula Amne Discreta. Greek and Latin sources to the oldest history of Poland".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Road

Map: https://i.imgur.com/TPPQpPU.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/TPPQpPU.jpg

[Peterski]

The Vandals marched from Poland all the way to Iberia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Vandals_Migration_406-418.png/616px-Vandals_Migration_406-418.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Vandals_Migration_406-418.png/616px-Vandals_Migration_406-418.png

Procopius, "History of the Wars", III, XXII, 13-16 wrote about those Vandals who stayed in their previous homeland:

"(...) Now as for those Vandals who remained in their native land, neither remembrance nor any name of them has been preserved to my time. (...) they were either overpowered by the neighbouring barbarians [Slavs] or they were mingled with them [Slavs] not at all unwillingly and their name gave way to that of their conquerors. Indeed, when the Vandals were conquered at that time by Belisarius, no thought occurred to them to go from there to their ancestral homes. For they were not able to convey themselves suddenly from Libya to Europe, especially as they had no ships at hand, but paid the penalty [2] there for all the wrongs they had done the Romans and especially the Zacynthians. (...)"

But later during the Early Middle Ages, there was still some remembrance, because many sources called Poles Vandals.

For example:

Adam of Bremen wrote the following about West Slavs (in what is now East Germany, Poland and Czechia):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_of_Bremen

"Sclavania igitur, amplissima Germaniae provintia, a Winulis incolitur, qui olim dicti sum Wandali; decies maior esse fertur nostra Saxonia, presertim si Boemiam et eos, qui trans Oddaram sunt, Polanos, quaia nec habitu nec lingua discrepant, in partem adiecreris Sclavaniae."

In English:

"Slavia, the largest province of Germania, is inhabited by Winuls [Wends?], who used to be called Vandals. They say that it is larger than our Saxony, especially if we include to Slavia also Bohemians and Polans on the other side of the Oder, who are no different in language or custom."

Gerhard of Augsburg in his "Miracula Sancti Oudalrici" (written in 983-993) referred to Mieszko I of Poland as "dux Wandalorum, Misico nomine" (in English: "duke of the Vandals, called Misico"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mieszko_I_of_Poland

In general in multiple Early Medieval sources, the name Poles was used synonymously with the name Vandals.

=====

Helmold of Bosau, "Chronica Slavorum" ("Chronicle of the Slavs"):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmold

Excerpts from Chapter 1, "About the Division of the Slavs":

"(...) Numerous are Slavic nations living along the coast of the Baltic Sea. (...) Around this sea dwell many nations; namely the Danes and the Swedes who are called Normans by us, and who occupy the northern coast. (...) The southern coast is inhabited by Slavic nations; first of them are the Russians; then come the Poles who have Prussians to the north of them, Czechs to the south of them and those who call themselves Moravians and Sorbs. (...) [Slavic] nations are embelished by the sign of Christ. Already for a long time Rus belongs to the believing countries. And Rus is called Ostrogard by the Danes (...) The same country is also called Hunigard, because it is believed that there the Huns had their original seats. And the capital city of this country is Kiev. I have no idea which missionaries converted Ruthenians to the holy faith. But I know for sure one thing, namely that - as it seems - in their customs they are similar to Greeks rather than to Latinists. And the Rus Sea [Black Sea] is a short water bridge to Greece. (...) Bohemia has a king and warlike knights; they have a lot of churches and the people are dedicated to religious practices. Bohemia is divided into two bishoprics - Prague and Olomouc. Poland is a great country of Slavic people; it borders - as they say - with Ruthenia. It is divided into eight bishoprics - Gniezno, Poznań, Włocławek, Płock, Cracow, Wrocław, Lubusz [Lebus] and Wolin. In the past Poland had kings, but now it is ruled by dukes. The kinds of weapons and the methods of combat used by the Poles are the same as those of the Czechs. Called to war, the Poles are brave in battle (...)"

[Peterski]

^^^
Our "dux Wandalorum Misico" could be R1b too, if there were no NPEs between him and these guys:

http://scienceinpoland.pap.pl/en/news/news%2C413945%2Cgeneticists-have-investigated-the-biological-origin-of-mazovian-princes.html

Interesting that according to the legendary story of the dynasty's origin, the dynasty was descended from a simple commoner (Piast the Wheelwright, or Piast the Farmer - depending on version of the story) who took power from older legendary dynasty, the Popielids.

Piast could also be a maior domus at the court of the Popielids (Polish word for maiordomus is piastun).

There is analogy with Charles Martel, who was also not of royal blood (Carolingians started their career as mayors of the palace at the Merovingian court).

[Peterski]

Do you get any big match on GED from north Africa?

North African Vandals probably did not survive, they were exterminated by Belisarius. This is what Procopius wrote:

In "Arcana", 18, 5 ff., Procopius estimates the number of the Vandals in Africa, at the time of Belisarius, at 80,000 males, and intimates that practically all perished.

[Dick]

According to YTree estimates, Mr. L617, our ancestor, lived around year 247 AD:

https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=618

This is much younger than TMRCA for L617 according to YFull.

But it makes more sense to me because L617 is not very numerous.

If it was really as old as YFull claims, there would be more of us.

Also the distribution of L617 match perfectly with Vandals and Lugians.

Perhaps it emerged around 247 AD somewhere near the Vistula or Warta Rivers.

There are more.


https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L617?iframe=yresults


https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l617/about

contact the admin and ask him to look at your Big Y result

[tipirneni]

North African Vandals probably did not survive, they were exterminated by Belisarius. This is what Procopius wrote:

In "Arcana", 18, 5 ff., Procopius estimates the number of the Vandals in Africa, at the time of Belisarius, at 80,000 males, and intimates that practically all perished.

Based on big numbers It looked some might have been assimilated. we never know until some thing shows up

[Peterski]

Admin of my Y-DNA Project hypothesized that R1b-L617 came to Poland and Lithuania with Sephardic Jewish refugees after 1492 AD.

Quote:

"POLAND & LITHUANIA: Another recent indication is that L617s may have been present in Sephardic Jews exiled from Iberia to Poland about 500 years ago. This indicates more DF27 lines in the Poland Lithuanian area may turn out being L617."

Admin of FTDNA Polish Project responded:

"He has 3 cases of L617+ from Poland-Lithuania [that was before I tested]. His claim that all three are of Sephardic Jewish origin is very weak; and, I suspect, is based partly on his personal belief that L617 began in Iberia."

Indeed right now it seems that L617 actually began in Poland around 247 AD and moved to Iberia with the Vandals.

Though to be honest whichever theory turns out true I will be fine with it.

I don't mind having Jewish Y-DNA, but the case for this hypothesis is weak.

[Dick]

Admin of my Y-DNA Project hypothesized that R1b-L617 came to Poland and Lithuania with Sephardic Jewish refugees after 1492 AD.

Quote:

"POLAND & LITHUANIA: Another recent indication is that L617s may have been present in Sephardic Jews exiled from Iberia to Poland about 500 years ago. This indicates more DF27 lines in the Poland Lithuanian area may turn out being L617."

Admin of FTDNA Polish Project responded:

"He has 3 cases of L617+ from Poland-Lithuania [that was before I tested]. His claim that all three are of Sephardic Jewish origin is very weak; and, I suspect, is based partly on his personal belief that L617 began in Iberia."

Indeed right now it seems that L617 actually began in Poland around 247 AD and moved to Iberia with the Vandals.

Though to be honest whichever theory turns out true I will be fine with it.

I don't mind having Jewish Y-DNA, but the case for this hypothesis is weak.

That's because that specific admin can't fathom the fact that haplogroups, especially R1b subclades, evolved in Eastern Europe and moved west. The horror!

[Peterski]

That's because that specific admin can't fathom the fact that haplogroups, especially R1b subclades, evolved in Eastern Europe and moved west. The horror!

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?267564-What-happened-to-Neolithic-Britons


The white man came across the sea...


https://youtu.be/86URGgqONvA

[Dick]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?267564-What-happened-to-Neolithic-Britons

It's Bell Beaker in a nutshell for now until you get a closer match.

[Peterski]

It's Bell Beaker in a nutshell for now until you get a closer match.

Even Bell Beakers have a longer history in Poland than in Britain:

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2017/06/samborzec-beakers-from-maopolska-poland.html

I4251/RISE1122/grave no. 7: 2837-2672 BCE (3990±60 BP, Ki-7926). Male inhumation burial (25-30 years) with northwest-southeast orientation, located on the left side. The grave goods consisted of two vessels (bowl and unornamented cup), a flint blade dagger and a flint scraper. [R1b1a1a2 + H1]

^^^
This is the oldest known R1b from Poland and it is older than R1b in Britain.

[Dick]

This is the oldest known R1b from Poland and it is older than R1b in Britain.

Exactly. The Czech on yfull seems to be the father of all of you Celto-celts bell beaker celts whatever xD

[Peterski]

Exactly. The Czech on yfull seems to be the father of all of you Celto-celts bell beaker celts whatever xD

Why Czech and not Pole?

There is also RISE1 (dated to 2865-2578 BCE) from Oblaczkowo, in my region.

It was reported as R1 and later R1b, although I remember that it was disputed because it is a Corded Ware individual, and probably the oldest one.

R1b samples from Samborzec and Oblaczkowo seem to be older than R1a Corded Ware expansion.

[Dick]

Why Czech and not Pole?

There is also RISE1 (dated to 2865-2578 BCE) from Oblaczkowo, in my region.

It was reported as R1 and later R1b, although I remember that it was disputed because it is a Corded Ware individual, and probably the oldest one.

R1b samples from Samborzec and Oblaczkowo seem to be older than R1a Corded Ware expansion.

Who's your daddy? a Czech xD

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2552/

[Peterski]

Who's your daddy? a Czech xD

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2552/

No, I suppose that RISE1 from Oblaczkowo is everyone's daddy, also that Czech's.

By the way, if - hypothetically - Piast Dynasty R1b is directly descended from RISE1 (Oblaczkowo), now that would give "we won't forsake the land we came from" a whole new meaning, 4000-5000 years in the same place: :eek:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIDq7vDXpE0

[Dick]

No, I suppose that RISE1 from Oblaczkowo is everyone's daddy, also that Czech's.

By the way, if - hypothetically - Piast Dynasty R1b is directly descended from RISE1 (Oblaczkowo), now that would give "we won't forsake the land we came from" a whole new meaning, 4000-5000 years in the same place: :eek:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIDq7vDXpE0

Sounds like you're coping, Czech junior.

[Peterski]

^^^
I was told about YFull:

"For the next update you should be in a subclade of L617 and HG01606 (Iberian from 1000 Genomes) should be downstream of you."

Interesting, so apparently my branch is ancestral or basal to this Iberian branch, not the other way around.

[Dick]

^^^
I was told about YFull:

"For the next update you should be in a subclade of L617 and HG01606 (Iberian from 1000 Genomes) should be downstream of you."

Interesting, so apparently my branch is ancestral or basal to this Iberian branch, not the other way around.

So it's Bell beaker afterall

[Peterski]

So it's Bell beaker afterall

Ultimately Yamnaya.

[Peterski]

YFull assigned me to FGC31068 and estimates the TMRCA of this subclade as 900 BC:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?272870-Spanish-Polish-connections-after-900-BC

[Ayetooey]

Cool stuff. Groundbreaking.

[Podlachian]

I wonder why?:

Maybe becasue mostly these are just pure guesses?


Admin of my Y-DNA Project hypothesized that R1b-L617 came to Poland and Lithuania with Sephardic Jewish refugees after 1492 AD.

http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/issamar.jpg

[Peterski]

Maybe becasue mostly these are just pure guesses?

YFull estimates a TMRCA of around 900 BC (2900 years ago) for my sub-branch:

https://i.imgur.com/gjR4rMa.png

As you can see TMRCA estimates by YFull and estimates by YTree differ quite a lot.

Likely because they don't have access to same samples. Or due to methodology.

[Artek]

YFull estimates a TMRCA of around 900 BC (2900 years ago) for my sub-branch:

https://i.imgur.com/gjR4rMa.png

As you can see TMRCA estimates by YFull and estimates by YTree differ quite a lot.

Likely because they don't have access to same samples. Or due to methodology.

I will try to convince undertested L617 Polish project participants at FTDNA to do more testing, maybe you will find a closer match thanks to that.