Do you agree with Nietzsche?

[Joe McCarthy]

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/001940.html


“The falseness of an opinion,” said Nietzsche, “is not for us any objection to it.... The question is, how far an opinion is life-furthering, life-preserving ...”

[Hess]

I would have no problem with Christians if they just admit that the bible is a philosophical work and that the supernatural events in it were either extremely exagerrated or did not happen at all.

[Joe McCarthy]

I would have no problem with Christians if they just admit that the bible is a philosophical work and that the supernatural events in it were either extremely exagerrated or did not happen at all.

Imagine the Pope calling the faithful to arms in the First Crusade and then ending it with: "Oh, by the way, this whole Christ stuff? It's all bullshit. Now go conquer for the Lord!'

[Hess]

Imagine the Pope calling the faithful to arms in the First Crusade and then ending it with: "Oh, by the way, this whole Christ stuff? It's all bullshit. Now go conquer for the Lord!'

I understand, and I concede that Christianity has played an integral role in the identity of Europe.

As much as it pains me, I must agree with Nietzsche. A belief or claim does not necessarily have to be true to be positive and helpful

[Hess]

By the way, Joe, have you ever read the Jefferson Bible? I think it is something you would appreciate. http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/

[Joe McCarthy]

By the way, Joe, have you ever read the Jefferson Bible? I think it is something you would appreciate. http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/

Bits and pieces. Jefferson regarded himself as a Christian but didn't believe the miracles.

[Joe McCarthy]

I understand, and I concede that Christianity has played an integral role in the identity of Europe.


The question is what role it plays today. Niall Ferguson suggested Europe and America may be becoming two different civilizations due to European secularization. This may even translate politically, as culture plays a role in such things. There is talk of Germany and France moving closer toward Russia and away from the US and NATO, and obviously Russia is highly atheistic.

[Cato]

Not really; I think that he's overrated. Confucius is a more influential philosopher in my mind.

[Hess]

The question is what role it plays today. Niall Ferguson suggested Europe and America may be becoming two different civilizations due to European secularization. This may even translate politically, as culture plays a role in such things. There is talk of Germany and France moving closer toward Russia and away from the US and NATO, and obviously Russia is highly atheistic.

Actually, no. I don't have any numbers, but I am fairly certain that most Russians believe in god. The orthodox church is still very strong there. Even during communist times, many people still secretly believed in god.

[Joe McCarthy]

Actually, no. I don't have any numbers, but I am fairly certain that most Russians believe in god. The orthodox church is still very strong there. Even during communist times, many people still secretly believed in god.

I've seen numbers though I don't have them right in front of me. Let's just say that on a religion spectrum, France and Germany are closer to Russia than they are the US, even though there are Christians in all three countries.

[Labeat]

The question is what role it plays today. Niall Ferguson suggested Europe and America may be becoming two different civilizations due to European secularization. This may even translate politically, as culture plays a role in such things. There is talk of Germany and France moving closer toward Russia and away from the US and NATO, and obviously Russia is highly atheistic.

Always exist political reason for that, but i do not see this proximity movement of France and Germany to Russia like one thing which will destroy relations between Europe and Usa , maybe it is strategical movement of these countries include Usa.
Even i can not say that these countries are continuing to move toward Russia , for example foreign policy of France toward Russia is so different from couple years ago.

[Odoacer]

I disagree with Nietzsche. (No surprise.) Ultimately, falsehood is always destructive, no matter how advantageous or "life-furthering" it may seem in the shortrun.

[Loddfafner]

I find two distinct interpretations: one is something equivalent to Benedict Anderson's quip about nationalism, that is based on fictions (Eastern European national myths are often blatantly fraudulent or exaggerated) but should not be judged as fictions to be debunked as false consciousness but rather as fictions to be judged according to how creatively they are imagined. Hence the title of the book on nationalism it came from, "Imagined Communities".
If this is what Nietzsche means, then I agree.

On the other hand, I often hear of otherwise-bright conservative-identified people rooting for blatant idiots such as Sarah Palin or furthering obvious crap about, say, Obama's birth certificate on the assumption that they mobilize rural white America. If this is the what Nietzsche means, which I doubt, then I disagree.

[Joe McCarthy]

I disagree with Nietzsche. (No surprise.) Ultimately, falsehood is always destructive, no matter how advantageous or "life-furthering" it may seem in the shortrun. An illiterate bedouin entered a cave, claimed he spoke to an angel, and a whole civilization was built around this. Granted, I'm not a fan of the religion he started, but it's hard to argue that this lie (I hesitate to call it a noble lie) was without some benefits for its adherents, and if we're still in the short run, it's going on 1400 years now. I think it can easily be argued that noble lies are often preferable to awful truths. Whether the opposite is ever true is questionable, but I'm open to arguments and examples.

[Odoacer]

An illiterate bedouin entered a cave, claimed he spoke to an angel, and a whole civilization was built around this. Granted, I'm not a fan of the religion he started, but it's hard to argue that this lie (I hesitate to call it a noble lie) was without some benefits for its adherents, and if we're still in the short run, it's going on 1400 years now. I think it can easily be argued that noble lies are often preferable to awful truths. Whether the opposite is ever true is questionable, but I'm open to arguments and examples.

Islam is a better falsehood than the vulgar paganism of the ancient Arabians, but that's because it contains a greater proportion of truth. So, relatively speaking, it may be considered beneficial. However, that's only against a background of greater falsehood.

[Labeat]

Islam is a better falsehood than the vulgar paganism of the ancient Arabians, but that's because it contains a greater proportion of truth. So, relatively speaking, it may be considered beneficial. However, that's only against a background of greater falsehood.

Islam is ideology which is created to unite arab tribes and to make a central arab leadership , and yes i must agree with you that for that time islam bring more benefits to people of that area than old their paganism, otherwise also islam have pagan elements on it just like other religions.

[cmt160]

Islam is a better falsehood than the vulgar paganism of the ancient Arabians, but that's because it contains a greater proportion of truth. So, relatively speaking, it may be considered beneficial. However, that's only against a background of greater falsehood.

Its just more militant and doesn’t repress natural predatory instincts of humans by “channeling” and directing them towards outsiders/non-muslims/“heathens” (who must be tortured/raped/killed/looted), but technically its a slave religion on itself (“muslim” literally means submissive/subordinate” to Allah, which is a manmade magical god who you would only know about if you read a manmade book written by men [but which the muslims claim that it was written via “divine inspiration” and totally not by men with an agenda/motivation, ofc you must blindly believe that it was divine inspiration. Same could be applied to the Bible btw) which forbids you from eating during daytime for a week or two (the ramadan thing, idc the length and im not gonna fixate on small meaningless details) because some bullshit reason (that the muslim slaves blindly believe in. Actually it was created to “train” them for lack of food during wartime, when the food supply would be cut off so that they would be more ready for it than their opponents).


They also have the typical pagan mystical/esoteric components from ancient middle eastern semitic religions/cults (which jews also have due to shared origins) such as not eating pork (because pork is actually a sacred animal in those very ancient oriental cults i mentioned before. Research it if you don’t believe me lol) due to some petty invented excuse for the slaves to blindly believe in it (such as the pig being a “dirty” and “impure” animal because of its “filthiness”, nowadays they claim it has “disease” like the typical germ theory bacteria/virus boogeyman for modern slaves who believe in germ theory) or that you cannot drink/consume blood because it has the “soul” of the animal (which could be true but wouldn’t make it harmful, rather beneficial. But the slave has a very “slave” mindset sculpted by manmade morals [brainwashing/conditioning since childhood], so you cannot really have a proper discussion with them about it) so that you have to dry the meat (and therefore will lack the nutrients that are soluble in the blood, because blood has the nutrients of the animal. Logically its what carries everything around the body. And the organs the places where these nutrients get stored, followed by the fat tissue and then finally the muscle).


Tho islam is “natural” in the sense of women and family (not real natural in nature, but natural within what would be a manmade society/civilization). Naturally you wouldn’t want your woman to be lusted at by other men (and women wouldn’t want to be treated like whores to every man who wants to lust after them, very often ugly men that they wouldn’t want to breed with naturally) so the whole hijab/headscarf or even burka (in the most extreme cases) thing is done out of respect for the woman and her “dignity”. Not just for her husband and family (which is also) but also for herself (its all related, because theyre all the same thing. Family is one). Im aware of the physical problems the hijab/burka thing may cause (especially back pain) but you must also understand the reason it was created for, just like the ramadan thing/fasting (which you would never naturally, because in nature you don’t repress your urges).


Ofc in nature women wouldn’t need any covering but bc there wouldnt be random outsiders/strangers around all the time, very rarely if never. The women would be surrounded by their own kin (family aka children, parents, siblings, grandparents, grandchildren, cousins, uncles/aunts, nephews/nieces) all the time so theoretically they wouldn’t even need clothes (and neither men would, none really). But we don’t live in nature anymore and you can’t just do what you would naturally do in this manmade system so to be more “natural” within a society you would have to do the whole covering stuff (we aren’t supposed to be surrounded by complete strangers everyday in every corner naturally but welp we just are and yeah its bad eitherway but you cannot do what you would naturally do around family in nature in this manmade society. Its also the root cause of most of our insecurities and psychological problems related to social stuff).


And well related to the family, islam iirc forbids u from using contraceptive methods which actually hijack your brain because when you want to have sex with someone it means you wanna procreate with that human, even if your “conscius” brainwashed fake-self doesn’t realize it (your subconscious does and thats why you wanna have sex). So if you are having sex without reproduction, you will feel the “feelgood” chemicals at first but you would end up miserable and empty inside because you (your subconscious natural real self) even if youre super brainwashed would naturally realize that you did it without any purpose and didn’t fulfill you longterm (we want longterm happiness). Even womanizers/sluts feel that way after all the meaningless sex with “protection” (which is really just mutual masturbation, cannot be really described as proper sexual realtion by the very original definition of it) even if they cannot put it in words, you can see the apathy in their faces, the dullness and emptiness. Meanwhile islam promotes forging the bond that you naturally would in nature with that certain person that would find attractive and become “inlove” with and you want to breed with (thats all that “love” is, biochemical reaction that happens when two humans [man and woman] find eachother “attractive/hot/beautiful” and thus want sex aka reproduction aka kids [even if the marriage is arranged between the father of the woman and the husband, which technically would also kinda happen in nature, very rarely its the woman choosing/having a say]). Islam encourages the couple to be loyal and fruitful (both things you would naturally be in nature with the human you love).


I think Christianity (even if it was a “slave” religion the same as judaism or islam) used to be similar to this back in the day, during the middle ages for sure. But got eroded from inside by certain components that I won’t talk about (you’ve probably guessed it already). And well “paganism” (at least the ancient version of it from organized civilizations with organized cults and pantheons and institutions and manmade madeup specific myths/stories about madeup “gods” with specific names and everything else typical of a “civilized society” organized slave cult) is technically just as enslaved as the “abrahamic” religions (the one from organized civilizations as I described in the previous parenthesis).


People nowadays are just as much religious as they were back in the day btw, they just switched Christianity/Judaism/Islam/Buddhism/Hinduism/Shintoism/whatever religion “of old” for the new religion of scientism, which includes theories (theories are by definition beliefs and blind beliefs are by definition religious thus religious beliefs) such as the germ theory or “evolution”. All this gets mixed with the typical slave morality (all morals are manmade) created originally (in ancient times so there wouldn’t be infighting and tension within a tribe I guess, most logical conclusion [and thus “good” technically]. Maybe also with the “hidden hand”/intention of later making subservient pussy slaves to whatever system there would be, really one thing leading to another/being taken advantage for at the end of the day) by the religions of old and now combined with those recent/modern religions to create the typical “new age” “spirituality”/religions.

[Immanenz]

I m not sure what Nietzsche 100 % meant with that, but he knows some had to sacrifce themselves in order for others to life. One thing capitalism/hedonism has taught us, there was never a reason to die for, the most nihilistic thought is: historically honorable men died for tiktokers selling farts (indirectly of course, but thanks to opinion-makers anyway).