North Africans AND Sicilians/Maltese may have more Arab ancestry than the Lebanese!

[Sikeliot]

Let me be clear about what I am saying here before I get death threats or something crazy.

Lebanese are almost 100% Canaanite/Phoenician, and Canaanites are more closely related to Arabians than either Italics, Berbers, or Greeks.

With that said, on Anthrogenica I asked someone to model Sicilians, Maltese, Algerians, Tunisians, and Lebanese to try to figure out how much Arabian peninsular ancestry they have, from actual genetic Arabs.

In order:

Tunisian > Algerian > Maltese > Trapani/West Sicily > Syracuse/East Sicily > Lebanon

Also, the Canaanite/Levant BA North exists in roughly homogenous levels in Sicily and Malta around 15-17%, but not in North Africans. Maltese have almost the exact same amount of Arabian peninsular ancestry as the Algerians, as well.

BedouinB - to model pristine Arabic population.
Mozabite - to model pristine North African population.
Mycenaean - to model pristine East Mediterranean population.
Levant_BA_North - to model pristine Levant.
Italy_Medieval_Collegno - to model post-Norman North Italian and/or pre-Greek geneflow.




Algerian


distance%=1.7162"

Mozabite,93.6
BedouinB,6.4


Tunisian


distance%=1.8271"

Mozabite,81
BedouinB,19


Lebanese_Christian


distance%=1.9421"

Levant_BA_North,91.4
Yamnaya_Samara,8.6


Lebanese_Christian


distance%=3.1951

Levant_BA_North,100



Lebanese_Muslim


distance%=2.2521"

Levant_BA_North,86
Yamnaya_Samara,14



Sicilian_East (Syracuse)


"distance%=1.6005"

Mycenaean,42.4
Italy_Medieval_Collegno,33.8
Levant_BA_North,17
BedouinB,4.4
Mozabite,2.4



Sicilian_West (Trapani)


"distance%=1.6198"

Italy_Medieval_Collegno,37.6
Mycenaean,37.2
Levant_BA_North,15.2
Mozabite,5.2
BedouinB,4.8


Maltese:


"distance%=1.6133"

Mycenaean,37.6
Italy_Medieval_Collegno,31.6
Levant_BA_North,16.6
Mozabite,7.8
BedouinB,6.4

[Sikeliot]

Basically what it looks like is Lebanese Christians are as close to 100% ancient Middle Eastern as it gets.

[Leto]

Basically what it looks like is Lebanese Christians are as close to 100% ancient Middle Eastern as it gets.
I'm not surprised at all.

Can you add Ashkenazi Jews to that list?

[Kamal900]

Looks like Arabs had settled in North African and Southern Italy a lot more than in Lebanon. Can you do this to the Palestinians and Jordanians? I'd like to see how much Arabian admixture we have.

[Mingle]

Looks like Arabs had settled in North African and Southern Italy a lot more than in Lebanon. Can you do this to the Palestinians and Jordanians? I'd like to see how much Arabian admixture we have.

I've seen nMontes for Palestinians before. They get 75% Paleo-Levantine, 20% Peninsular Arab, 5% SSA.

[Sikeliot]

Looks like Arabs had settled in North African and Southern Italy a lot more than in Lebanon. Can you do this to the Palestinians and Jordanians? I'd like to see how much Arabian admixture we have.

Lebanon was not mostly Muslim until very recently, it was predominantly Christian, and remained so until the last few hundred years. It is likely most Lebanese Muslims don't descend from Arabs but rather from Christian Lebanese who converted relatively late to Islam and/or married Muslim Lebanese, and only a small portion of Muslim Lebanese ancestry is derived from people who converted early on.


They did model Palestinians, see here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15971-Who-are-the-Palestinian-Arabs-and-how-quot-indigenous-quot-are-they-to-Israel-Palestine/page2

Looks like 21% peninsular Arab input is average, with a range of 5-36%. So Palestinians are significantly more descended from the Arab conquest than are Lebanese, with most of the rest being indigenous Canaanite and then a minor SSA component.

[Sikeliot]

I'm not surprised at all.

Can you add Ashkenazi Jews to that list?

Ashkenazim should descend from a Lebanese-Christian like population + Italic mostly, so I would imagine they wouldn't score any.

[Kamal900]

I've seen nMontes for Palestinians before. They get 75% Paleo-Levantine, 20% Peninsular Arab, 5% SSA.

Very consistent with the genetic study on Arabs that I have posted in the past that claims we're around 20 to 30% Arabians genetically. Noice.

[Sikeliot]

Very consistent with the genetic study on Arabs that I have posted in the past that claims we're around 20 to 30% Arabians genetically. Noice.

I wonder how much Syrians have. And Moroccans. It'd be funny if even Spain or Portugal has more Arabian peninsular ancestry than Lebanese do.

I think Lebanese are justified to see themselves as an indigenous non-Arab people of the Middle East, like Assyrians or Copts.

[Kamal900]

I wonder how much Syrians have. And Moroccans. It'd be funny if even Spain or Portugal has more Arabian peninsular ancestry than Lebanese do.

I think Lebanese are justified to see themselves as an indigenous non-Arab people of the Middle East, like Assyrians or Copts.

An older study from 2013 put Syrians in the same cluster as us Palestinians and Jordanians, so I would that they sunni Muslims have similar Arabian admixture as us. Thanks for linking me to the forum, bro. It justifies on the notion that we're Levantines with Arabian and east African admixtures. Sick and tired in seeing Zionists trying to claim that we're not natives genetically.

[Sikeliot]

An older study from 2013 put Syrians in the same cluster as us Palestinians and Jordanians, so I would that they sunni Muslims have similar Arabian admixture as us. Thanks for linking me to the forum, bro. It justifies on the notion that we're Levantines with Arabian and east African admixtures. Sick and tired in seeing Zionists trying to claim that we're not natives genetically.

So Lebanese are outliers.

This also shows to me that all Sicilians have Phoenician input (see how Bronze Age Levant is modeled at homogenous percentages for Malta, Trapani, and Syracuse) and that even Syracusans have Arab era admixture, though probably the least on the island.

[Tauromachos]

So Lebanese are outliers.

This also shows to me that all Sicilians have Phoenician input (see how Bronze Age Levant is modeled at homogenous percentages for Malta, Trapani, and Syracuse) and that even Syracusans have Arab era admixture, though probably the least on the island.


Poor Lebanese

Someone has always to be the outliers

[Kamal900]

So Lebanese are outliers.

This also shows to me that all Sicilians have Phoenician input (see how Bronze Age Levant is modeled at homogenous percentages for Malta, Trapani, and Syracuse) and that even Syracusans have Arab era admixture, though probably the least on the island.

Man, a lot of Italians are gonna get triggered by it. The very fact that the great genetic divide between North and Southern Italians already make many people from WN circles very nervous and crazy already.

[Sikeliot]

Poor Lebanese

Someone has always to be the outliers

I am sure they would be happy to find out they're Canaanites and not Arabs. Lebanese are always saying they're not Arabs but Phoenicians.

What shocks me is even Syracusans have some Arabian.... :lol:

[Haider]

Lebanon was not mostly Muslim until very recently, it was predominantly Christian, and remained so until the last few hundred years. It is likely most Lebanese Muslims don't descend from Arabs but rather from Christian Lebanese who converted relatively late to Islam and/or married Muslim Lebanese, and only a small portion of Muslim Lebanese ancestry is derived from people who converted early on.


They did model Palestinians, see here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15971-Who-are-the-Palestinian-Arabs-and-how-quot-indigenous-quot-are-they-to-Israel-Palestine/page2

Looks like 21% peninsular Arab input is average, with a range of 5-36%. So Palestinians are significantly more descended from the Arab conquest than are Lebanese, with most of the rest being indigenous Canaanite and then a minor SSA component.

Mount Lebanon was actually majority DRUZE until the 17th century, when an intra-Druze war broke out and almost all the Druze population left for Syria. The remainers invited Maronites from an area called 'Qadisha Valley' to repopulate Mount Lebanon and be their subjects, where their numbers quickly grew.

[Sikeliot]

Man, a lot of Italians are gonna get triggered by it. The very fact that the great genetic divide between North and Southern Italians already make many people from WN circles very nervous and crazy already.

What I am awaiting is when we get good Bronze Age Sicily samples and they are simply a mix of EEF, CHG, and maybe a tiny bit of WHG (like Mycenaeans) with no Levant, Berber, or Arabian whatsoever.

[Kamal900]

Mount Lebanon was actually majority DRUZE until the 17th century, when an intra-Druze war broke out and almost all the Druze population left for Syria. The remainers invited Maronites from an area called 'Qadisha Valley' to repopulate Mount Lebanon and be their subjects, where their numbers quickly grew.

I know this, but what about the Muslims including the Shi3as came from?

[Kamal900]

What I am awaiting is when we get good Bronze Age Sicily samples and they are simply a mix of EEF, CHG, and maybe a tiny bit of WHG (like Mycenaeans) with no Levant, Berber, or Arabian whatsoever.

If they didn't show any Levantine admixture at that time, it could mean that the west asian admixture in Sicilians is more recent than previously thought.

[Sikeliot]

If they didn't show any Levantine admixture at that time, it could mean that the west asian admixture in Sicilians is more recent than previously thought.

The samples we are getting soon should be pre-Phoenician, so if they end up lacking MENA input, we know it's recent. And I am 99% sure it will be.

[Kamal900]

The samples we are getting soon should be pre-Phoenician, so if they end up lacking MENA input, we know it's recent. And I am 99% sure it will be.

Can't wait to see the results of these ancient samples, rofl.

[Leto]

Ashkenazim should descend from a Lebanese-Christian like population + Italic mostly, so I would imagine they wouldn't score any.
And how much Levantine are they? 50% or more? Maybe even less?

[Kamal900]

And how much Levantine are they? 50% or more? Maybe even less?

I'm guessing they're around 50 to 55% Levantine on average.

[Sikeliot]

I'm guessing they're around 50 to 55% Levantine on average.

Here is Moroccans... Trapanese are as Arab as Moroccans, and Maltese more so.

Saharawi represents higher SSA in Morocco, as they're a more SSA-shifted Berber area.

Moroccan


"distance%=2.7936"

Mozabite,69
Saharawi,26.2
BedouinA,4.8

[Leto]

I've seen nMontes for Palestinians before. They get 75% Paleo-Levantine, 20% Peninsular Arab, 5% SSA.
Offtopic: what about Pashtuns? How much BA Steppe can they be modeled as?

[Kamal900]

Here is Moroccans... Trapanese are as Arab as Moroccans, and Maltese more so.

Saharawi represents higher SSA in Morocco, as they're a more SSA-shifted Berber area.

Moroccan

So they do have some Arab admixture, lol. I guess us Palestinians beats them, right?

[Haider]

I know this, but what about the Muslims including the Shi3as came from?

I'm talking specifically about Mount Lebanon, which was a semi-autonamous Druze emirate under Ottoman rule. Shiites lived in Jabal Amel/Northern Galilee and the Bekaa Valley, Sunnis and Greek Orthodox on the coastal areas. Maronites in the Qadisha Valley. But apart from Druze Mount Lebanon, which was semi-autonomous, all the other areas I cited were part of generic Syria. The Druze prince/emir Fakrerdinne tried to unite all these areas and bring them under his rule, but failed.

[Kamal900]

I'm talking specifically about Mount Lebanon, which was a semi-autonamous Druze emirate under Ottoman rule. Shiites lived in Jabal Amel/Northern Galilee and the Bekaa Valley, Sunnis and Greek Orthodox on the coastal areas. Maronites in the Qadisha Valley. But apart from Druze Mount Lebanon, which was semi-autonomous, all the other areas I cited were part of generic Syria. The Druze prince/emir Fakrerdinne tried to unite all these areas and bring them under his rule, but failed.

I see. I was asking because my paternal grand mother was a Lebanese shi3a.

[Mingle]

Offtopic: what about Pashtuns? How much BA Steppe can they be modeled as?

Not really sure.

[Chaos One]

Interesting how I get some Mozabite or Moroccan at Gedmatch but hardly any Arab or Levantine background. I mean, usually I get like 10% Nafri but less than 3% Red Sea.

[Levant15]

I modeled my parents and they don't score any arab either. I even tried different types of runs and populations trying to force nmonte to pick up arab but none at all. I was able to force Lebanese Christians and Samaritans to score a couple of arab points but not my parents. Interesting.

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[Sikeliot]

So they do have some Arab admixture, lol. I guess us Palestinians beats them, right?

If even Moroccans have it, then Lebanese are literally the least "Arab" Arabs. Even though Canaanites are more closely related to Arabs than any of the other components in North Africans, Sicilians, or Maltese.

[Sikeliot]

So they do have some Arab admixture, lol. I guess us Palestinians beats them, right?

If even Moroccans have it, then Lebanese are literally the least "Arab" Arabs. Even though Canaanites are more closely related to Arabs than any of the other components in North Africans, Sicilians, or Maltese.

[Leto]

Not really sure.
You can do your own. You seem to be relatively pure, less than 5% mongoloid which is unthinkable even for many Afghans, let alone Tajikistanis. Though I'd do that with your (upcoming?) FTDNA data.

[Leto]

I modeled my parents and they don't score any arab either. I even tried different types of runs and populations trying to force nmonte to pick up arab but none at all. I was able to force Lebanese Christians and Samaritans to score a couple of arab points but not my parents. Interesting.

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Really impressive. Can you post some Ashkenazi results?

[Kamal900]

You can do your own. You seem to be relatively pure, less than 5% mongoloid which is unthinkable even for many Afghans, let alone Tajikistanis. Though I'd do that with your (upcoming?) FTDNA data.

Can you do mine? I'm eager to know how much Arabian admixture do I have.

[Kamal900]

I modeled my parents and they don't score any arab either. I even tried different types of runs and populations trying to force nmonte to pick up arab but none at all. I was able to force Lebanese Christians and Samaritans to score a couple of arab points but not my parents. Interesting.

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Can you do mine, please? I'm a Palestinian Arab and I'm eager to know my Arabian admixture.

[Levant15]

Can you do mine, please? I'm a Palestinian Arab and I'm eager to know my Arabian admixture.Do you have your G25 coordinates?

Someone already made a calculator at the link below but it's limited to 4 reference populations. If you don't know how to use, just give me your coordinates and I can do it.

http://185.144.156.77:3000/

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

[Haider]

I wonder where this elevated 'Yamnaya_Samara' in Lebanese Muslims comes from.

[Sikeliot]

I wonder where this elevated 'Yamnaya_Samara' in Lebanese Muslims comes from.

Iranic people? Normans? Both?

[Kamal900]

Do you have your G25 coordinates?

Someone already made a calculator at the link below but it's limited to 4 reference populations. If you don't know how to use, just give me your coordinates and I can do it.

http://185.144.156.77:3000/

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

G25 coordinates? How can I do that exactly?

[Levant15]

G25 coordinates? How can I do that exactly?You gotta send your raw data to davidski at eurogenesblog.com. It costs $12 though and will take up to two days to get.

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[Haider]

Iranic people? Normans? Both?

Most likely. Because according to nMonte models, Lebanese Muslims don't have Bedouin-like admixture when compared to their Christian counterparts, but they do need extra 'Yamnaya' to be best modeled.

[Kamal900]

You gotta send your raw data to davidski at eurogenesblog.com. It costs $12 though and will take up to two days to get.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

Oh. Okay. I'll ask him then. 12 USD right?

[Sikeliot]

Most likely. Because according to nMonte models, Lebanese Muslims don't have Bedouin-like admixture when compared to their Christian counterparts, but they do need extra 'Yamnaya' to be best modeled.

So which do you think it is?

On Eurogenes K15 I posted some Lebanese today. A few of the Muslims could be modeled as Lebanese + 5-10% Germanic.

[Levant15]

Oh. Okay. I'll ask him then. 12 USD right?Yep

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2018/02/the-powerful-global-25-now-available.html?m=1

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[Tauromachos]

So which do you think it is?

On Eurogenes K15 I posted some Lebanese today. A few of the Muslims could be modeled as Lebanese + 5-10% Germanic.

Interchange the Lebanese with the Germanic and then you probably get what Profileid would score

[Kamal900]

Yep

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2018/02/the-powerful-global-25-now-available.html?m=1

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Thanks..eh, how can I send money to him via paypal again? Sorry, I'm very new to this..

[Levant15]

Thanks..eh, how can I send money to him via paypal again? Sorry, I'm very new to this..Yes. Pay him using PayPal then email him your raw data.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

[Mingle]

You can do your own. You seem to be relatively pure, less than 5% mongoloid which is unthinkable even for many Afghans, let alone Tajikistanis. Though I'd do that with your (upcoming?) FTDNA data.I don't think that 5% is that rare for Afghanistani Pashtuns, at least for those from East Afg (N2KL) who are genetically identical with KPK Pashtuns.

About my own results...I have heard mixed opinions regarding which test has the best raw data. Some have said that MyHeritage and AncestryDNA would be better and I don't wanna have any regrets after I order a test so I won't need to do a third one afterwards. Is there any notable difference between FTDNA and AncestryDNA? I'm fully sure I'm gonna have it done before Christmas regardless.

But yes, I don't wanna do a G25 with my flawed low-SNP V5 chip.

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

[McCloskey]

I wonder where this elevated 'Yamnaya_Samara' in Lebanese Muslims comes from.

Turkic admixture. Many Turkic Central Asian groups in the Middle East were a mix of Scythian-like tribes with Mongoloids and some of them were predominantly West Eurasian.

All travellers and writers of the time (Arab or European) emphasized how tall and light they were compared to native Levantines and Egyptians.

[Leto]

I don't think that 5% is that rare for Afghanistani Pashtuns, at least for those from East Afg (N2KL) who are genetically identical with KPK Pashtuns.

About my own results...I have heard mixed opinions regarding which test has the best raw data. Some have said that MyHeritage and AncestryDNA would be better and I don't wanna have any regrets after I order a test so I won't need to do a third one afterwards. Is there any notable difference between FTDNA and AncestryDNA? I'm fully sure I'm gonna have it done before Christmas regardless.

But yes, I don't wanna do a G25 with my flawed low-SNP V5 chip.

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk
Believe me, FTDNA is just fine. It's about the same as MyHeritage and also very similar to Ancestry. I have several FTDNA accounts and all of them have 175-80k SNPs on GEDmatch.

[Levant15]

I wonder where this elevated 'Yamnaya_Samara' in Lebanese Muslims comes from.You're not joking! Muslims are scoring twice as much as Christians god damnnn!

Even Palestinian Muslims are scoring close to 11%https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/4fef1a4d03bfe02952f3a87e93bd9c20.jpg

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[Levant15]

Really impressive. Can you post some Ashkenazi results?Ashkenazim are tricky to model and not easy. But they need the Myceneans in to improve the distance.
In this iteration, they scored close to 12% but weird that my dad scored 0% in the same iteration. Jews were more Arab than Samaritans and Palestinian Christians? Hmm...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/ce684790f06fbe01aa4482d59a7229f2.jpg

[Kamal900]

Yes. Pay him using PayPal then email him your raw data.

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Autosomal raw data, right?

[Levant15]

Autosomal raw data, right?Yes. Ftdna and ancestry are best. I would email him first if you're sending 23andme V5

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[Kamal900]

Yes. Ftdna and ancestry are best. I would email him first if you're sending 23andme V5

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I have only FTDNA, so yeah.

[FilhoV]

23&me I have 58865 SNPs

FTDNA 178875 SNPs

[FilhoV]

23&me I have 58865 SNPs

FTDNA 178875 SNPs

[Kamal900]

You're not joking! Muslims are scoring twice as much as Christians god damnnn!

Even Palestinian Muslims are scoring close to 11%https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/4fef1a4d03bfe02952f3a87e93bd9c20.jpg

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

Hmm, the results show Lebanese Muslims not Palestinian Muslims. Can you show the average Palestinian Muslim, please? I'd like to see the Bedouin B average.

[Levant15]

Hmm, the results show Lebanese Muslims not Palestinian Muslims. Can you show the average Palestinian Muslim, please? I'd like to see the Bedouin B average.34% but distance is not the best.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/638dd515ecc27f719476cf043d47cf1d.jpg

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

[Sikeliot]

34% but distance is not the best.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/638dd515ecc27f719476cf043d47cf1d.jpg

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Can you try Sicilians with a mixture of relevant groups? Near Eastern, Italic, Greek, Germanic, Iberian etc.

[Morena]

Interesting.

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.newsapi.com.au%2Fimage%2Fv1%2F 8740e5f59ed9e4ea451eb52fde529ce8%3Fwidth%3D650&f=1

[Kamal900]

34% but distance is not the best.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/638dd515ecc27f719476cf043d47cf1d.jpg

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Sexy Arabian admixture, lol. What do you mean?

[Sp_loa]

Ashkenazim are tricky to model and not easy. But they need the Myceneans in to improve the distance.
In this iteration, they scored close to 12% but weird that my dad scored 0% in the same iteration. Jews were more Arab than Samaritans and Palestinian Christians? Hmm...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/ce684790f06fbe01aa4482d59a7229f2.jpg

Can you share a Samaritan result?

And I'm not surprised Jews are more Arabian than Samaritan because in the Hashmonean period the Jews converted (by force) most nations (not few people- entire nations) around them and mixed with them- that includes all Edomites, many Nabateans and most/all Itureans (And I'm sure they had high Arab admix and high Red sea) .

Samaritans on the other hand were denied by the Judeans after they returned from Babylonia (5th century BCE) so they are more pure Israelites, maybe with some Assyrian admix.

[Kamal900]

Can you share a Samaritan result?

And I'm not surprised Jews are more Arabian than Samaritan because in the Hashmonean period the Jews converted (by force) most nations (not few people- entire nations) around them and mixed with them- that includes all Edomites, many Nabateans and most/all Itureans (And I'm sure they had high Arab admix and high Red sea) .

Samaritans on the other hand were denied by the Judeans after they returned from Babylonia (5th century BCE) so they are more pure Israelites, maybe with some Assyrian admix.

Yup. Many Arabs like the Nabateans and other had converted to Judaism.
https://books.google.de/books?id=0IJ1DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA344&dq=ahmad+al+jallad&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt44LH6ZLfAhWjPOwKHcMWB1gQ6AEISzAH#v=on epage&q=qedarites&f=false

I think the Samaritans would have Mesopotamian admixture according to their own scriptures where they had intermarried with Assyrian woman during the neo-Assyrian empire.

[Levant15]

Can you share a Samaritan result?

And I'm not surprised Jews are more Arabian than Samaritan because in the Hashmonean period the Jews converted (by force) most nations (not few people- entire nations) around them and mixed with them- that includes all Edomites, many Nabateans and most/all Itureans (And I'm sure they had high Arab admix and high Red sea) .

Samaritans on the other hand were denied by the Judeans after they returned from Babylonia (5th century BCE) so they are more pure Israelites, maybe with some Assyrian admix.Samaritans are identical to Bronze age Levant North.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/1f63ad509075b4261a4a696d58fdf1d2.jpg

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[Kamal900]

Samaritans are identical to Bronze age Levant North.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/1f63ad509075b4261a4a696d58fdf1d2.jpg

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

This is porn for me..

[Sikeliot]

Samaritans are identical to Bronze age Levant North.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/1f63ad509075b4261a4a696d58fdf1d2.jpg

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Try Sicily please.

[Levant15]

Can you try Sicilians with a mixture of relevant groups? Near Eastern, Italic, Greek, Germanic, Iberian etc.Not familiar with European populations. What's best population to use? I'm only limited to 4 pops.

Italy Abruzzo makes Sicilian fit very good. Far better than Myceneans. I know shouldn't be mixing ancient with modern..
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/d9ca315a034d1b8e31bb8d2c3c9b9944.jpg

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

[Sp_loa]

Not familiar with European populations. What's best population to use? I'm only limited to 4 pops.

Italy Abruzzo makes Sicilian fit very good. Far better than Myceneans. I know shouldn't be mixing ancient with modern..
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/d9ca315a034d1b8e31bb8d2c3c9b9944.jpg

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

It would be interesting to see sicilians compared to North Italians/Roman/Iberian reference.

[Sikeliot]

Not familiar with European populations. What's best population to use? I'm only limited to 4 pops.

Italy Abruzzo makes Sicilian fit very good. Far better than Myceneans. I know shouldn't be mixing ancient with modern..
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/d9ca315a034d1b8e31bb8d2c3c9b9944.jpg

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

No no no. Get rid of Abruzzese, they're south Italians and it creates overfitting. Try "Greek", "Iberian", "Bedouin" and "Levant BA" or Lebanese.

[Morena]

It would be interesting to see sicilians compared to North Italians/Roman/Iberian reference.

I think so too.

[Sikeliot]

I think so too.

If you use Iberian, then it requires Levantine to balance it out on the other end.

[Sp_loa]

If you use Iberian, then it requires Levantine to balance it out on the other end.

I think it's better to use Roman/North-Central Italy than Iberian.

[Sikeliot]

I think it's better to use Roman/North-Central Italy than Iberian.

Using Iberian inflates the amount of MENA because Iberians have less CHG/Caucasus input than Central Italians have.

[Sp_loa]

Using Iberian inflates the amount of MENA because Iberians have less CHG/Caucasus input than Central Italians have.

But it won't reflect the real amount of levantine Ancestry among Sicilians because most of their European Ancestry should be Roman and not Iberian.

[Levant15]

How about those two iterations?

West Sicilians scoring more arab sounds correct? And less Lebanese

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/05253a05449df3777c38360024e7d2cb.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/35ef464fa8235c826ab15bea2ee10fff.jpg

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[Sikeliot]

How about those two iterations?

West Sicilians scoring more arab sounds correct?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/05253a05449df3777c38360024e7d2cb.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/35ef464fa8235c826ab15bea2ee10fff.jpg

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Those work better IMO. Though I still note, Sicilian East and West samples don't represent all of Sicily because of the regions they are chosen from.

Try Greeks as a mixture of Bedouin, Lebanese Christian, some kind of Slavs, and Tuscans or Abruzzese maybe?

[Sp_loa]

How about those two iterations?

West Sicilians scoring more arab sounds correct? And less Lebanese

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/05253a05449df3777c38360024e7d2cb.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/35ef464fa8235c826ab15bea2ee10fff.jpg

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What happens when you use only Levant, Italian Bergamo, BedouinB and North African? No greek.

[Sikeliot]

What happens when you use only Levant, Italian Bergamo, BedouinB and North African? No greek.

I am curious to see this too.

What is clear is Levant doesn't capture all of West Sicily's MENA, which means there is Arabian ancestry in Trapani.

[Kamal900]

34% but distance is not the best.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/638dd515ecc27f719476cf043d47cf1d.jpg

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So..Palestinians on average are 34% Arabian or something? Nice. What's bedouin B, and what do you mean that the distance is not best? Thanks

[Sp_loa]

I am curious to see this too.

What is clear is Levant doesn't capture all of West Sicily's MENA, which means there is Arabian ancestry in Trapani.

Who brought Levantine and Arabian ancestry to Sicily? phoenicians probably brought the levantine but the arabian is from North Africa? the Islamic Caliphate?

[Sikeliot]

Who brought Levantine and Arabian ancestry to Sicily? phoenicians probably brought the levantine but the arabian is from North Africa? the Islamic Caliphate?

Arabian would be from the Arab conquest, a mixture of Arabs and Berbers.

Phoenician input was 2500 years ago and is clearly dispersed roughly evenly across the entire island.

[Kamal900]

Arabian would be from the Arab conquest, a mixture of Arabs and Berbers.

Phoenician input was 2500 years ago and is clearly dispersed roughly evenly across the entire island.

Do you know the exact Palestinian genetic admixtires on average, please? Is it 25 or 34%?

[Sikeliot]

Do you know the exact Palestinian genetic admixtires on average, please? Is it 25 or 34%?

I do not unfortunately. But it looks like 20-35% Arabian admixture and the rest indigenous.

[Levant15]

Those work better IMO. Though I still note, Sicilian East and West samples don't represent all of Sicily because of the regions they are chosen from.

Try Greeks as a mixture of Bedouin, Lebanese Christian, some kind of Slavs, and Tuscans or Abruzzese maybe?
What happens when you use only Levant, Italian Bergamo, BedouinB and North African? No greek.Like this? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/0caf58bbf61205ea0a1ec158c9e6e0b5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/988d0d4f324b2e2cd52a3d18533432d5.jpg

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[Sikeliot]

Like this? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/0caf58bbf61205ea0a1ec158c9e6e0b5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/988d0d4f324b2e2cd52a3d18533432d5.jpg

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Can you try the Sicilians with either Algerian/Tunisian but not both, and put Lebanon there?

Interesting that Bedouin works better than North African though.

As for the Greeks, it definitely does look like half South Balkan, half central-south Italian works well.

[Levant15]

So..Palestinians on average are 34% Arabian or something? Nice. What's bedouin B, and what do you mean that the distance is not best? ThanksPalestinians arab component ranges alot. I've some who score only 10% and as much as 45%.

What I mean by distance ranges alot is that it can be improved by adding additional population to the mix like Egyptians, Assyrians, etc...
Some of that arab is not arab rather Egyptian.



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[Smeagol]

Lebanese are true descendants of the Phoenicians.

[Sp_loa]

I just checked Moroccan Jews (they have 4 people to reference) and they score 0% Bedouin on any module I tried. Why Ashkenazi do score then?

[Levant15]

Palestinians arab component ranges alot. I've some who score only 10% and as much as 45%.

What I mean by distance ranges alot is that it can be improved by adding additional population to the mix like Egyptians, Assyrians, etc...
Some of that arab is not arab rather Egyptian.



Sent from my SM-G960U1 using TapatalkEast Sicilians are part Phoenicians.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/2e148e2c930adf26c6c36cf281f29919.jpg

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

[Aren]

Quite inaccurate runs, elevated Yamnaya everywhere cause of their excess CHG/Iran_N in comparison to the Sidon samples.

A more relevant run would be adding CHG-rich populations without much or any Steppe such as Armenia_EBA and a later Steppe sample that we atleast know affected other parts of the West Asia, Sintastha_MLBA.

"distance%=1.5165"

Lebanese_Muslim

Levant_BA_North,48.4
BedouinA,24.8
Armenia_EBA,16.6
Sintashta_MLBA,10.2

"distance%=1.3458"

Lebanese_Druze

Levant_BA_North,66.4
Armenia_EBA,17
Sintashta_MLBA,9.4
BedouinA,7.2

"distance%=1.5726"

Lebanese_Christian

Levant_BA_North,83.8
Sintashta_MLBA,9
Armenia_EBA,7.2

"distance%=2.0592"

Samaritan

Levant_BA_North,96.8
Sintashta_MLBA,3.2

Better fits and makes more sense.

Levant15's parents(Palestinian Christians), remember individual runs give slightly worse fits than those of an average.

"distance%=2.5488"

Levant15:Father

Levant_BA_North,83.6
Armenia_EBA,10.2
Sintashta_MLBA,6.2


"distance%=2.9142"

Levant15:Mother

Levant_BA_North,87.6
Sintashta_MLBA,7.2
Armenia_EBA,5.2

[Sikeliot]

East Sicilians are part Phoenicians.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/2e148e2c930adf26c6c36cf281f29919.jpg

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West Sicily still needs Bedouin though, interesting.

I think we need a Central Sicily sample which would be Palermo, Agrigento, etc.

[Sp_loa]

<a href="http://tinypic.com?ref=2z7ho3q" target="_blank"><img src="http://i65.tinypic.com/2z7ho3q.png" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"></a>

[Levant15]

<a href="http://tinypic.com?ref=2z7ho3q" target="_blank"><img src="http://i65.tinypic.com/2z7ho3q.png" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"></a>You're right even Italian Jews don't score arab. Something is wrong here. I think it's because Ashkenazim are picking up too much Myceneans so it tries to balance itself out by picking up arab.

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[Sp_loa]

You're right even Italian Jews don't score arab. Something is wrong here. I think it's because Ashkenazim are picking up too much Myceneans so it tries to balance itself out by picking up arab.

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I think North Italian is better reference to the European in Ashkenazim.

[Levant15]

Quite inaccurate runs, elevated Yamnaya everywhere cause of their excess CHG/Iran_N in comparison to the Sidon samples.

A more relevant run would be adding CHG-rich populations without much or any Steppe such as Armenia_EBA and a later Steppe sample that we atleast know affected other parts of the West Asia, Sintastha_MLBA.

"distance%=1.5165"

Lebanese_Muslim

Levant_BA_North,48.4
BedouinA,24.8
Armenia_EBA,16.6
Sintashta_MLBA,10.2

"distance%=1.3458"

Lebanese_Druze

Levant_BA_North,66.4
Armenia_EBA,17
Sintashta_MLBA,9.4
BedouinA,7.2

"distance%=1.5726"

Lebanese_Christian

Levant_BA_North,83.8
Sintashta_MLBA,9
Armenia_EBA,7.2

"distance%=2.0592"

Samaritan

Levant_BA_North,96.8
Sintashta_MLBA,3.2

Better fits and makes more sense.

Levant15's parents(Palestinian Christians), remember individual runs give slightly worse fits than those of an average.

"distance%=2.5488"

Levant15:Father

Levant_BA_North,83.6
Armenia_EBA,10.2
Sintashta_MLBA,6.2


"distance%=2.9142"

Levant15:Mother

Levant_BA_North,87.6
Sintashta_MLBA,7.2
Armenia_EBA,5.2I noticed the same about my parents. I could never get a good distance. Could that mean my parents have admixture that yet to be discovered?

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[Kamal900]

Quite inaccurate runs, elevated Yamnaya everywhere cause of their excess CHG/Iran_N in comparison to the Sidon samples.

A more relevant run would be adding CHG-rich populations without much or any Steppe such as Armenia_EBA and a later Steppe sample that we atleast know affected other parts of the West Asia, Sintastha_MLBA.

"distance%=1.5165"

Lebanese_Muslim

Levant_BA_North,48.4
BedouinA,24.8
Armenia_EBA,16.6
Sintashta_MLBA,10.2

"distance%=1.3458"

Lebanese_Druze

Levant_BA_North,66.4
Armenia_EBA,17
Sintashta_MLBA,9.4
BedouinA,7.2

"distance%=1.5726"

Lebanese_Christian

Levant_BA_North,83.8
Sintashta_MLBA,9
Armenia_EBA,7.2

"distance%=2.0592"

Samaritan

Levant_BA_North,96.8
Sintashta_MLBA,3.2

Better fits and makes more sense.

Levant15's parents(Palestinian Christians), remember individual runs give slightly worse fits than those of an average.

"distance%=2.5488"

Levant15:Father

Levant_BA_North,83.6
Armenia_EBA,10.2
Sintashta_MLBA,6.2


"distance%=2.9142"

Levant15:Mother

Levant_BA_North,87.6
Sintashta_MLBA,7.2
Armenia_EBA,5.2

Nice. Could you do some Palestinian results as well?

[Aren]

I noticed the same about my parents. I could never get a good distance. Does that mean my parents have admixture that yet to be discovered?

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Like I said, individuals get somewhat worse fit than the averages in the spreadsheet. I get that too in comparison to the Assyrian average. I tried adding Anatolia_BA, Myceanean and Assyrian in your parents run but it only made the fit slightly better.

I don't think it's admixture yet to be discovered, but rather samples with different ratios of components not yet present in Davids spreadsheet.

[Kamal900]

Lebanese are true descendants of the Phoenicians.

We Palestinians are descendants of the ancient Israelites mixed with Arabian and Egyptian populations. :)

[Aren]

Nice. Could you do some Palestinian results as well?

I think the Palestinian average is inaccurate, it's almost identical to BedouinA(levantine shifted Bedouins). I'm positive that you would score quite different than this from what I've seen of your Gedmatch results

"distance%=0.8571"

Palestinian

BedouinA,69
Levant_BA_North,23.2
Sintashta_MLBA,4.8
Armenia_EBA,3

Adding Egyptian

"distance%=0.7962"

Palestinian

BedouinA,43.6
Levant_BA_North,29.6
Egyptian,16.2
Sintashta_MLBA,5.4
Armenia_EBA,5.2

[Sp_loa]

<a href="http://tinypic.com?ref=33f5h6f" target="_blank"><img src="http://i66.tinypic.com/33f5h6f.png" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"></a>

Are Mizrahi Jews descendants of Assyrian convertors or the results are because of overlap between Assyrians and Levantines?

[Kamal900]

I think the Palestinian average is inaccurate, it's almost identical to BedouinA(levantine shifted Bedouins). I'm positive that you would score quite different than this from what I've seen of your Gedmatch results

"distance%=0.8571"

Palestinian

BedouinA,69
Levant_BA_North,23.2
Sintashta_MLBA,4.8
Armenia_EBA,3

Adding Egyptian

"distance%=0.7962"

Palestinian

BedouinA,43.6
Levant_BA_North,29.6
Egyptian,16.2
Sintashta_MLBA,5.4
Armenia_EBA,5.2

Can you please explain to me what's the difference between Bedouin A and B? Sorry but I have zero clue about genetics and I'm interested in seeing the results on how Arabian and native Levantines we are.

[Kamal900]

<a href="http://tinypic.com?ref=33f5h6f" target="_blank"><img src="http://i66.tinypic.com/33f5h6f.png" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"></a>

Are Mizrahi Jews descendants of Assyrian convertors or the results are because of overlap between Assyrians and Levantines?

That's a really good question. They seem to cluster very closely with native Mesopotamians.

[Aren]

Can you please explain to me what's the difference between Bedouin A and B? Sorry but I have zero clue about genetics and I'm interested in seeing the results on how Arabian and native Levantines we are.

BedouinB are from the Negev desert who seem to be the most Natufian-like population sampled so far, close to Saudis and with only minor SSA. Very different from Levantines.
BedouinA is closer to Levantines and a bit higher SSA than BedouinB.

Many Arab tribes in Saudi Arabia seem to be somewhere inbetween these two Bedouin samples, so there's quite a lot of diversity.

[Kamal900]

BedouinB are from the Negev desert who seem to be the most Natufian-like population sampled so far, close to Saudis and with only minor SSA. Very different from Levantines.
BedouinA is closer to Levantines and a bit higher SSA than BedouinB.

Many Arab tribes in Saudi Arabia seem to be somewhere inbetween these two Bedouin samples, so there's quite a lot of diversity.

I went to Anthrogenica, and it seems that we Palestinians are between 20 to 30% Bedouin B. According to the folks there, Bedouin B are peninsular Arabs like highland Yemenis or something. What do you think the ancient Arabian peoples like the Sabaeans or the Himyarites would have been like in your own opinion? You seem to be very knowledgeable on these things.

[FilhoV]

Anyone know what the “Saharawi” population in G25 consists of???


[1] "distance%=3.3808 / distance=0.033808"

_scaled

French_South 85.3
Saharawi 14.6


[1] "distance%=3.996 / distance=0.03996"

_scaled

French_East 83.0
Saharawi 17.1


and with Basques


[1] "distance%=3.7131 / distance=0.037131"

_scaled

Spanish_Pais_Vasco 84
Saharawi 16

[Levant15]

I went to Anthrogenica, and it seems that we Palestinians are between 20 to 30% Bedouin B. According to the folks there, Bedouin B are peninsular Arabs like highland Yemenis or something. What do you think the ancient Arabian peoples like the Sabaeans or the Himyarites would have been like in your own opinion? You seem to be very knowledgeable on these things.Yes. I think it all depends on the components used but that's the general conclusion. 15 ~ 30 % is the most accepted figure.

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[Kamal900]

Yes. I think it all depends on the components used but that's the general conclusion. 15 ~ 30 % is the most accepted figure.

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I reached my limit to view on Athrogenica. Can you tell me the exact origins and differences between Bedouin A and B? What about Levant_BA North and South?

[Levant15]

I reached my limit to view on Athrogenica. Can you tell me the exact origins and differences between Bedouin A and B? What about Levant_BA North and South?Not sure exactly. Bedouin B is from the Negav I believeand it's similar to modern arabs. Bedouin A is like full arab. I believe Bedouin A is the reference for red sea in gedmatch which scores 100% red sea.


Levant BA South is an earlier version of Levant BA north.
Levant BA north has extra Anatolia amd Iran component compared to the south.


Btw, you can keep reopening anthrogenica links in incognito window and close and repeat when you reach the limit.

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[Levant15]

I found a 23andme report of a half Palestinian, quarter Iraqi. I don't know the fourth quarter, maybe Saudi based on the results

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/a2165b3e8197bda44b5dabd9eb74b9e5.jpg

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[Leto]

Are Syrians more similar to Palestinians or Lebanese Muslims?

[Kamal900]

Not sure exactly. Bedouin B is from the Negav I believeand it's similar to modern arabs. Bedouin A is like full arab. I believe Bedouin A is the reference for red sea in gedmatch which scores 100% red sea.


Levant BA South is an earlier version of Levant BA north.
Levant BA north has extra Anatolia amd Iran component compared to the south.


Btw, you can keep reopening anthrogenica links in incognito window and close and repeat when you reach the limit.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

Oh, thanks bro.

[Kamal900]

Are Syrians more similar to Palestinians or Lebanese Muslims?

More closer to us and Jordanians.

[Leto]

More closer to us and Jordanians.
Here are some Syrian kits
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?245352-Random-GEDmatch-kits&p=5641232&viewfull=1#post5641232

[happycow]

Cool

[Token]

Levant seems too high, Iran_Chl like admixture not related to proper Levantine admixture might be inflating it. Here is Abruzzo using the same outgroups:

[1] "distance%=1.3972"

Italian_Abruzzo

Italy_Medieval_Collegno,42.2
Mycenaean,33.6
Levant_BA_North,24.2

By the way, why Medieval Collegno to proxy North Italian and Italic admixture when it is actually closer to Scandinavians than to the northernmost modern-day Italians?

[FilhoV]

Levant seems too high, Iran_Chl like admixture not related to proper Levantine admixture might be inflating it. Here is Abruzzo using the same outgroups:

[1] "distance%=1.3972"

Italian_Abruzzo

Italy_Medieval_Collegno,42.2
Mycenaean,33.6
Levant_BA_North,24.2

By the way, why Medieval Collegno to proxy North Italian and Italic admixture when it is actually closer to Scandinavians than to the northernmost modern-day Italians?

Can you run Bergamo and Calabria and Sardinia?

[Kamal900]

BedouinB are from the Negev desert who seem to be the most Natufian-like population sampled so far, close to Saudis and with only minor SSA. Very different from Levantines.
BedouinA is closer to Levantines and a bit higher SSA than BedouinB.

Many Arab tribes in Saudi Arabia seem to be somewhere inbetween these two Bedouin samples, so there's quite a lot of diversity.

I think you got it backwards on the negev. It seems that they're bedouin A since they cluster more closer to us while bedouin B is Saudi, Yemeni and so on.

[StonyArabia]

I found a 23andme report of a half Palestinian, quarter Iraqi. I don't know the fourth quarter, maybe Saudi based on the results

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/a2165b3e8197bda44b5dabd9eb74b9e5.jpg

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

Probably part Southern Iraqi, they tend to be very Saudi like

[Asheffar]

False

[Damião de Góis]

I've said it before, the most simple way of quantifying "arab" could be by just looking at "southwest asian" on dodecad k12b. It peaks in Saudis at 67.7

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GWhNZcfTQ2hMSK9Ni1IqG7aXHB00SRE5L6ED2osPs9M/edit#gid=0

Lebanese score more than North Africans.

[Sikeliot]

I've said it before, the most simple way of quantifying "arab" could be by just looking at "southwest asian" on dodecad k12b. It peaks in Saudis at 67.7

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GWhNZcfTQ2hMSK9Ni1IqG7aXHB00SRE5L6ED2osPs9M/edit#gid=0

Lebanese score more than North Africans.

No, because Canaanites were closer related to Arabs than Berbers were.

[Leto]

I've said it before, the most simple way of quantifying "arab" could be by just looking at "southwest asian" on dodecad k12b. It peaks in Saudis at 67.7

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GWhNZcfTQ2hMSK9Ni1IqG7aXHB00SRE5L6ED2osPs9M/edit#gid=0

Lebanese score more than North Africans.
Don't trust the Dodecad references, they tend to be very unrepresentative. I'm not saying Saudis are a bad example, however one needs to check some actual results.

[Joso]

Wow, very interesting!

[Damião de Góis]

Don't trust the Dodecad references, they tend to be very unrepresentative. I'm not saying Saudis are a bad example, however one needs to check some actual results.

N=20 Saudis are more than enough. Portuguese_D is N=9 and people are happy to use it as reference.

I think it doesn't get more arab than saudis, so closeness to them is how arab a population is. In this case, looking at their main component (by far) is an obvious clue in my opinion.

[Leto]

N=20 Saudis are more than enough. Portuguese_D is N=9 and people are happy to use it as reference.

Quality, not quantity is what matters. Eastern Europe is completely off on Dodecad. I suspect other regions may be as well.

[Aren]

N=20 Saudis are more than enough. Portuguese_D is N=9 and people are happy to use it as reference.

I think it doesn't get more arab than saudis, so closeness to them is how arab a population is. In this case, looking at their main component (by far) is an obvious clue in my opinion.

Oh God this forum never ceases to amaze me.

[Damião de Góis]

Oh God this forum never ceases to amaze me.

I'm curious to see your point of view then, and why Saudis and their Southwest Asian are a bad fit for "arab".

[StevenTylerAerosmith]

coolio

[Leto]

A real Saudi. Notice the distance to the 'Saudi' reference

Dodecad K12b Oracle results:

Kit T443635

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Southwest_Asian 47.27
2 Caucasus 31.4
3 Atlantic_Med 6.24
4 Gedrosia 5.38
5 East_African 4.38
6 Northwest_African 3.97
7 South_Asian 1.16
8 Southeast_Asian 0.18

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Bedouin (HGDP) 5.26
2 Yemen_Jews (Behar) 8.48
3 Yemenese (Behar) 16.38
4 Palestinian (HGDP) 17.89
5 Jordanians (Behar) 20.33
6 Egyptans (Behar) 20.92
7 Syrians (Behar) 21.21
8 Samaritians (Behar) 21.99
9 Saudis (Behar) 22.21
10 Lebanese (Behar) 25.56
11 Iraq_Jews (Behar) 28.46
12 Druze (HGDP) 28.97
13 Iranian_Jews (Behar) 31.29
14 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 33.56
15 Georgia_Jews (Behar) 34.9
16 Assyrian (Dodecad) 35.3
17 Cypriots (Behar) 35.43
18 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 35.59
19 Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) 36.09
20 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 36.16

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 55.5% Palestinian (HGDP) + 44.5% Saudis (Behar) @ 2.24
2 52.3% Jordanians (Behar) + 47.7% Saudis (Behar) @ 2.96
3 64.7% Bedouin (HGDP) + 35.3% Yemen_Jews (Behar) @ 2.98
4 89.4% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 10.6% Makrani (HGDP) @ 3.25
5 89.9% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 10.1% Balochi (HGDP) @ 3.28
6 89% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 11% Pathan (HGDP) @ 3.29
7 90% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 10% Sindhi (HGDP) @ 3.4
8 83.7% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 16.3% Iranians (Behar) @ 3.43
9 89.5% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 10.5% Burusho (HGDP) @ 3.45
10 84.7% Bedouin (HGDP) + 15.3% Saudis (Behar) @ 3.45
11 90% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 10% Jatt (Dodecad) @ 3.46
12 90.6% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 9.4% Brahui (HGDP) @ 3.52
13 87.7% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 12.3% Tajiks (Yunusbayev) @ 3.52
14 85.8% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 14.2% Turkmens (Yunusbayev) @ 3.6
15 53.6% Saudis (Behar) + 46.4% Lebanese (Behar) @ 3.77
16 56.8% Saudis (Behar) + 43.2% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.92
17 84.5% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 15.5% Iranian (Dodecad) @ 4
18 84.1% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 15.9% Kurd (Dodecad) @ 4.02
19 73.9% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 26.1% Syrians (Behar) @ 4.27
20 73.1% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 26.9% Jordanians (Behar) @ 4.28

[Aren]

I'm curious to see your point of view then, and why Saudis and their Southwest Asian are a bad fit for "arab".
Is every % Northern Euro that you score in this particular calculator indicator of Baltic admixture in you?

[Damião de Góis]

Is every % Northern Euro that you score in this particular calculator indicator of Baltic admixture in you?

A fair point. But looking at the Saudi sample might at least give some clues in my opinion.

[zzddss]

i'm 100% arabian

# Population (source) Distance
1 Saudi 9.73
2 Yemenite_Jewish 18.87
3 Bedouin 22.55
4 Egyptian 27.01
5 Palestinian 27.62
6 Jordanian 29.2
7 Syrian 31.09
8 Samaritan 31.37
9 Lebanese_Christian 33.13
10 Lebanese_Muslim 34.19
11 Libyan_Jewish 34.78
12 Tunisian_Jewish 35.16
13 Lebanese_Druze 35.4
14 Kurdish_Jewish 36.41
15 Tunisian 36.58
16 Iranian_Jewish 36.83
17 Algerian 37.03
18 Moroccan 37.27
19 Cyprian 37.63
20 Sephardic_Jewish 37.9

[rein]

i'm 100% arabian

# Population (source) Distance
1 Saudi 9.73
2 Yemenite_Jewish 18.87
3 Bedouin 22.55
4 Egyptian 27.01
5 Palestinian 27.62
6 Jordanian 29.2
7 Syrian 31.09
8 Samaritan 31.37
9 Lebanese_Christian 33.13
10 Lebanese_Muslim 34.19
11 Libyan_Jewish 34.78
12 Tunisian_Jewish 35.16
13 Lebanese_Druze 35.4
14 Kurdish_Jewish 36.41
15 Tunisian 36.58
16 Iranian_Jewish 36.83
17 Algerian 37.03
18 Moroccan 37.27
19 Cyprian 37.63
20 Sephardic_Jewish 37.9

Interesting. Your oracle distances are quite big though. What do you get in mixed oracle?

[zzddss]

Interesting. Your oracle distances are quite big though. What do you get in mixed oracle?

Primary Population 100% Saudi / 0%Secondary Population

[Aren]

i'm 100% arabian

# Population (source) Distance
1 Saudi 9.73
2 Yemenite_Jewish 18.87
3 Bedouin 22.55
4 Egyptian 27.01
5 Palestinian 27.62
6 Jordanian 29.2
7 Syrian 31.09
8 Samaritan 31.37
9 Lebanese_Christian 33.13
10 Lebanese_Muslim 34.19
11 Libyan_Jewish 34.78
12 Tunisian_Jewish 35.16
13 Lebanese_Druze 35.4
14 Kurdish_Jewish 36.41
15 Tunisian 36.58
16 Iranian_Jewish 36.83
17 Algerian 37.03
18 Moroccan 37.27
19 Cyprian 37.63
20 Sephardic_Jewish 37.9

What's your tribe/affiliation? Where from in Saudi Arabia?

[Smitty]

Can you run Bergamo and Calabria and Sardinia?

Yes, a mainland Italian sample is necessary here. Otherwise, we're looking at Sicily in a vacuum. Even so, calculators...

[Mingle]

A real Saudi. Notice the distance to the 'Saudi' reference

Dodecad K12b Oracle results:

Kit T443635

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Southwest_Asian 47.27
2 Caucasus 31.4
3 Atlantic_Med 6.24
4 Gedrosia 5.38
5 East_African 4.38
6 Northwest_African 3.97
7 South_Asian 1.16
8 Southeast_Asian 0.18

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Bedouin (HGDP) 5.26
2 Yemen_Jews (Behar) 8.48
3 Yemenese (Behar) 16.38
4 Palestinian (HGDP) 17.89
5 Jordanians (Behar) 20.33
6 Egyptans (Behar) 20.92
7 Syrians (Behar) 21.21
8 Samaritians (Behar) 21.99
9 Saudis (Behar) 22.21
10 Lebanese (Behar) 25.56
11 Iraq_Jews (Behar) 28.46
12 Druze (HGDP) 28.97
13 Iranian_Jews (Behar) 31.29
14 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 33.56
15 Georgia_Jews (Behar) 34.9
16 Assyrian (Dodecad) 35.3
17 Cypriots (Behar) 35.43
18 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 35.59
19 Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) 36.09
20 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 36.16

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 55.5% Palestinian (HGDP) + 44.5% Saudis (Behar) @ 2.24
2 52.3% Jordanians (Behar) + 47.7% Saudis (Behar) @ 2.96
3 64.7% Bedouin (HGDP) + 35.3% Yemen_Jews (Behar) @ 2.98
4 89.4% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 10.6% Makrani (HGDP) @ 3.25
5 89.9% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 10.1% Balochi (HGDP) @ 3.28
6 89% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 11% Pathan (HGDP) @ 3.29
7 90% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 10% Sindhi (HGDP) @ 3.4
8 83.7% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 16.3% Iranians (Behar) @ 3.43
9 89.5% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 10.5% Burusho (HGDP) @ 3.45
10 84.7% Bedouin (HGDP) + 15.3% Saudis (Behar) @ 3.45
11 90% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 10% Jatt (Dodecad) @ 3.46
12 90.6% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 9.4% Brahui (HGDP) @ 3.52
13 87.7% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 12.3% Tajiks (Yunusbayev) @ 3.52
14 85.8% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 14.2% Turkmens (Yunusbayev) @ 3.6
15 53.6% Saudis (Behar) + 46.4% Lebanese (Behar) @ 3.77
16 56.8% Saudis (Behar) + 43.2% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.92
17 84.5% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 15.5% Iranian (Dodecad) @ 4
18 84.1% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 15.9% Kurd (Dodecad) @ 4.02
19 73.9% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 26.1% Syrians (Behar) @ 4.27
20 73.1% Yemen_Jews (Behar) + 26.9% Jordanians (Behar) @ 4.28

Is the Saudi reference not based on real Saudis?

[Iẓeḍwan n Nanna-Tuda]

Don't forget that Berbers and Arabians are related too.
Actually, an Arabian-like component was already found in NW Africa much before the Arabian conquest.

Here are the K36 of some Neolithic Moroccans kits + Guanches.
https://i.imgur.com/7aBC5R4.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Paveq8m.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zpAT4DS.jpg

[Smitty]

So Lebanese are outliers.

This also shows to me that all Sicilians have Phoenician input (see how Bronze Age Levant is modeled at homogenous percentages for Malta, Trapani, and Syracuse) and that even Syracusans have Arab era admixture, though probably the least on the island.

I still don't see how you can attribute this Levant component to the Phoenicians/Carthaginians, when it is found across Southern Italy and even Northern Italy. The Phoenician influence was small enough in Sicily; it is incredible that it would have impacted the whole of Italy. Wherever this component came from and whenever it came, it's pretty clear that it was a region-wide event. And the Carthaginian colonies don't fit that.

[Aren]

I still don't see how you can attribute this Levant component to the Phoenicians/Carthaginians, when it is found across Southern Italy and even Northern Italy. The Phoenician influence was small enough in Sicily; it is incredible that it would have impacted the whole of Italy. Wherever this component came from and whenever it came, it's pretty clear that it was a region-wide event. And the Carthaginian colonies don't fit that.

Northern Italians have very little admixture from the Bronze-Iron Age Levant and this small % probably comes from slowly mixing with more southerly Italians throughout the centuries.

Southern Italians on the other hand do clearly have a substantial amount of post-BA adxmiture from the Levant(around 25%) which is also shown in their uniparental markers, such as the various young subclades of J1 and J2 in Southern Italians found mainly in the Middle East.

[Smitty]

Northern Italians have very little admixture from the Bronze-Iron Age Levant and this small % probably comes from slowly mixing with more southerly Italians throughout the centuries.

Southern Italians on the other hand do clearly have a substantial amount of post-BA adxmiture from the Levant(around 25%) which is also shown in their uniparental markers, such as the various young subclades of J1 and J2 in Southern Italians found mainly in the Middle East.

I don't dispute anything in your post. I basically said the same. What I dispute is the attribution of this component to the Carthaginians. There were no Carthaginian colonies on the mainland, to my knowledge, yet mainlanders score a sizable percentage of this DNA, on a par with Sicily in some parts. It clearly has other origins on the mainland and therefore likely does in Sicily as well. I just think saying Carthage every time the subject comes up is sloppy genetics and sloppy history.

[Sandy Vento]

What about the Greek Islanders and Greeks of the Peloponnese?
Their autosomal genetic proximity to Sicilians/Maltese is quite close, why have you not included them?

[Sikeliot]

What about the Greek Islanders and Greeks of the Peloponnese?
Their autosomal genetic proximity to Sicilians/Maltese is quite close, why have you not included them?

Islanders yes (I have not run them to see how they come out) but not Peloponnesians, Peloponnesians are closer to other mainland Greeks.

[Sandy Vento]

Islanders yes (I have not run them to see how they come out) but not Peloponnesians, Peloponnesians are closer to other mainland Greeks.
If you haven't run Peloponnesians, how do you know what the results would be?
Seems like you already decided what the data would be without actually collecting it.
Shows bias in my opinion.
The non European cline in mainland Greece and Sicily/South Italy is pretty closely matched, more or less.
MY Gedmatch on the more accurate calculators for the admixed populations reflects this fact.
Not sure where you get your data from...:rolleyes:

MDLP K16 Modern Oracle results:
Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian (Abruzzo) 3.42
2 Greek (Greece) 4.27
3 Greek (Peloponnes) 4.71
4 Greek (Macedonia) 5.63
5 Italian (SouthItaly) 5.95
6 Albanian (Albania) 5.97
7 Greek (Thessaloniki) 6.12
8 Sicilian (Sicily) 6.22
9 Jew (Ashkenazi) 6.77
10 Gagauz (Gagauzia) 6.89
11 Kosovar (Kosovo) 6.91
12 Jew (Ashkenazim) 7.24
13 Greek (Athens) 7.5
14 Italian (Tuscany) 7.67
15 Maltese (Malta) 8.25
16 Italian (NorthIitaly) 8.47
17 Jew (Ashkenazi) 8.68
18 Jew (Belmonte) 8.74
19 Bulgarian (Bulgaria) 9.23
20 Romanian (Romania) 9.25

[Tauromachos]

Islanders yes (I have not run them to see how they come out) but not Peloponnesians, Peloponnesians are closer to other mainland Greeks.

They are not that far from Sicilians neither

[Sikeliot]

The non European cline in mainland Greece and Sicily/South Italy is pretty closely matched, more or less.

Explain?

There is nowhere in mainland Greece plotting like Sicily or Calabria. However, some parts of the mainland like Mani are not so far off from SOME of the Aegean islands like Cyclades.

[Numidia]

The poster is probably try to find a ethnicity to lebanese who have a big problem of identity :picard1:
there is no arabs how NA and others would have arab ancestry ?

[HolyMoon]

Your country was settled by Arabs even before Islam.

Your Y-DNA is Arabic, your position on a PCA is close to Arabs, and your sole language is Arabic. Meanwhile, North Africans' Y-DNA is Berber, all North Africans be it Berber-speakers or Arabic-speakers cluster far from Arabs, and Berber is still spoken by several million people till this day..