Split: Atheism vs. Christianity

[Labeat]

Till exist people which ones believe on these riduculous religious books, our society is going to resemble zombies.








Ps:I have same opinion for all religions not only christianity .

[Murphy]

Till exist people which ones believe on these riduculous religious books, our society is going to resemble zombies.

And I say to you sir that the very atheistic materialist regime you and your ilk wish to pressure on to European society is doing the very thing you claim religion is responsible for.. the creation of zombies.

A Spaniard once explained why he fought for Franco during the civil war.. it was because the atheist socialists took away the dignity of man that the Church and the Faith provides.

You sir wish to make me into a zombie whose worth is measured by how productive I am to the mercantile class. The Church measures my worth in that I am created in the very image of God with an immense dignity. That God Himself died for me. That is my worth.

Essentially I'm saying 'fuck you!'

[The Lawspeaker]

I am not religious (meaning: I damn well believe in something but religious institutions be damned) but Murphy's remark causes me to say "hear hear !" while reading it.

[Labeat]

And I say to you sir that the very atheistic materialist regime you and your ilk wish to pressure on to European society is doing the very thing you claim religion is responsible for.. the creation of zombies.

A Spaniard once explained why he fought for Franco during the civil war.. it was because the atheist socialists took away the dignity of man that the Church and the Faith provides.

You sir wish to make me into a zombie whose worth is measured by how productive I am to the mercantile class. The Church measures my worth in that I am created in the very image of God with an immense dignity. That God Himself died for me. That is my worth.

Essentially I'm saying 'fuck you!'

So if you are created on image of God then why you just dont pray to some human for that, or if your God died for you then your God is mortal. In all religious books God is portreted imortal , how contradictual religious things to make you feel fear,respect and loyality for stupidity.

How is possible an image of God to be so rude.

[Murphy]

So if you are created on image of God then why you just dont pray to some human for that,

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're saying.


or if your God died for you then your God is mortal. In all religious books God is portreted imortal , how contradictual religious things to make you feel fear,respect and loyality for stupidity.

How can you be an atheist if you do not even understand the basic concepts underpinning Christianity? It's called the hypostatic union.


How is possible an image of God to be so rude.

Rudeness is subjective.

[Oreka Bailoak]

Till exist people which ones believe on these riduculous religious books, our society is going to resemble zombies.

I've met just as many atheist zombies as Christian zombies.

As a group Christians tend to have much higher moral values than atheists (look at the average number of romantic partners per religion, they are more accountable through high standard of ethics than people with weak individualistic based morality), As a group Christians value marriage and family more than atheists (look at the birth rates). Also studies have shown that religious people are more happy in life than atheists.

^I'd rather hang around a group of happy people with big families and strong moral values than a group of unspiritual unhappy people with small families.

I'm just pointing out that many Christians are eons ahead in certain areas of life than many atheists (as the statistics show).

[Tolleson]

How is possible an image of God to be so rude.

His freckled ass is just like that. You get used to it. :thumb001:

[Eldritch]

...

How is possible an image of God to be so rude.

You come into the Christianity forum, firing off insults left and right, calling the King James Bible "ridiculous", and all manner of religious people "zombies" -- and then you have the audacity to ask a question like this ?!?

If you are an atheist and therefore do not believe in the Bible or any other holy book, fine. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.

That being the case, I suggest you turn around, and go to some other section of the forum. You're welcome to start your own thread about the ridiculousness of religion somewhere else, for example, if you so want.

[Labeat]

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're saying.

Firts i am not here to insult anybody, everyone have his opinions, like i said i have same opinion for all religions , religion is based in contradictual concepts, so this was only one contradict and if you want i will show more but that is not necessary, ok here is another one how you can believe that these prophets were not schizophrenics, depresed with hallucinations.
Scienctists lately are making searching of these schizophrenic hallucinations which are related with believing on supernatural forces.





How can you be an atheist if you do not even understand the basic concepts underpinning Christianity? It's called the hypostatic union.

Which is that basic, i have read Bible and Koran ,are you trying to say me that religion is based on atheist concepts which is reason?




Rudeness is subjective.
Ou now its subjective , God (invented word,imposing word)himself is subjective sadistic and rude.

[Murphy]

Which is that basic, i have read Bible and Koran ,are you trying to say me that religion is based on atheist concepts which is reason?

I am sorry but I stopped right there. To claim that reason is an atheist concept shows complete and utter ignorance on your part. Aquinas no doubt is laughing right now.. I can only shake my head and move along.

[Odoacer]

Labeat, you are completely off-topic. If I wanted to talk about the incoherence of atheism, I would start a new thread. Take it somewhere else please.

BACK ON TOPIC:

Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. (Luke 9:23-24)

[Labeat]

Labeat, you are completely off-topic. If I wanted to talk about the incoherence of atheism, I would start a new thread. Take it somewhere else please.

Sorry then my mistake i was only trying to discusse but nevermind forget my words after all my words were not hidden behind some other purpose.

[Labeat]

I am sorry but I stopped right there. To claim that reason is an atheist concept shows complete and utter ignorance on your part. Aquinas no doubt is laughing right now.. I can only shake my head and move along.
Really ignorance is on your side:



It is not my purpose to convert people to atheism . . . (but to) demonstrate that the belief in God is irrational to the point of absurdity. If a person wishes to continue believing in a god, that is his prerogative, but he can no longer excuse his belief in the name of reason and moral necessity.
George H. Smith

[Murphy]

Mr Smith is free to disagree and in fact your quote supports me. ".. but he can no longer excuse his belief in the name of reason.." this clearly demonstrates the existence of a body of Christians that believe God and the belief in God to be rational and, to an extent, that He can be known by human reason.

Whether belief in God is reasonable or not you can debate yes but that reason is an atheistic principal and concept you cannot uphold. Especially since the use of reason features so prominently in theistic thought going back thousands of years.

In fact reason in Christianity pre-dates modern atheism by a clear mile. If anything I could argue that atheists are the ones in a state of contradiction as they are using Christian principles of reason to assert their atheism.

[Labeat]

Mr Smith is free to disagree and in fact your quote supports me. ".. but he can no longer excuse his belief in the name of reason.." this clearly demonstrates the existence of a body of Christians that believe God and the belief in God to be rational and, to an extent, that He can be known by human reason.

Whether belief in God is reasonable or not you can debate yes but that reason is an atheistic principal and concept you cannot uphold. Especially since the use of reason features so prominently in theistic thought going back thousands of years.

In fact reason in Christianity pre-dates modern atheism by a clear mile. If anything I could argue that atheists are the ones in a state of contradiction as they are using Christian principles of reason to assert their atheism.
I am not condemn your reason to believe but i am interested to know reason which make you believe ,for me that reason does not exist its only fear what make you believer.

[Murphy]

I am not condemn your reason to believe but i am interested to know reason which make you believe ,for me that reason does not exist its only fear what make you believer.

Earlier in the thread you stated reason is an atheist concept. That is what my contention was with. My own reasons for believing in God is.. that God's existence is perfectly reasonable.

[Labeat]

Earlier in the thread you stated reason is an atheist concept. That is what my contention was with. My own reasons for believing in God is.. that God's existence is perfectly reasonable.
Ok lets try it in this way, when i am saying that God not exist automatically i am giving reason some chance , but your concept is irrational because you are saying God exist and that is assumption only based on your conviction, you are not reasonable here you are convinced.

[Hess]

I have a question for all the Christians on here. And keep in mind, this is a yes or no question, there is no need for philosophizing. Can you prove to me that there physically existed a "Jesus Christ" who performed miracles and raised from the dead? Can you show me the credible historical sources (not Josephus) or St. Paul's alleged 500 witnesses?

Note that I am not asking about the good that Christianity has done over the world. I am not asking about the bible's philosophical value.

My question is rather simple, a yes or no question: can you prove that someone named Jesus physically, literally rose from the dead and performed miracles?

[Murphy]

Miracles are a matter of faith. They're not unreasonable or irrational (the science behind such matters is perfectly consistent and logical). But belief in their occurrence requires faith which is a gift from God.

I honestly do not think anyone with a sense of intellectual integrity can deny that Jesus existed. Whether you believe in His claims and His miracles is another matter.

Can miracles be proven as possible? Yes. Can it be "proven" to you that Jesus performed miracles? That requires faith. Is this too "philosophical" for you? Then I apologise. But this is not a straight-forward thing.

[Labeat]

But belief in their occurrence requires faith which is a gift from God.
But what if one day you notice that this gift lost, so my question, is this another gift from God if you are not believer anymore?. i am based on religious sentence which is about everything its God's will

[Hess]

Miracles are a matter of faith. They're not unreasonable or irrational (the science behind such matters is perfectly consistent and logical). But belief in their occurrence requires faith which is a gift from God.

I honestly do not think anyone with a sense of intellectual integrity can deny that Jesus existed. Whether you believe in His claims and His miracles is another matter.

Can miracles be proven as possible? Yes. Can it be "proven" to you that Jesus performed miracles? That requires faith. Is this too "philosophical" for you? Then I apologise. But this is not a straight-forward thing.

Thank you, simple and honest answer. My problem is with the lee strobel types who claim that they can prove the resurrection as literally true beyond any doubt

[Murphy]

Thank you, simple and honest answer. My problem is with the lee strobel types who claim that they can prove the resurrection as literally true beyond any doubt

Well don't forget. Even Saint Thomas doubted. He had to put his hands into Christ's wounds to believe. But blessed is he who believes but has not seen ;).

[Murphy]

But what if one day you notice that this gift lost, so my question, is this another gift from God if you are not believer anymore?. i am based on religious sentence which is about everything its God's will

The Catholic Church teaches that man has free will and is therefore capable of rejecting God and His gifts. So if one day you lose your faith it is not God's gift but your rejection of His gift which was/is faith.

[Labeat]

The Catholic Church teaches that man has free will and is therefore capable of rejecting God and His gifts. So if one day you lose your faith it is not God's gift but your rejection of His gift which was/is faith.
All religious books teaches that man has free will but in other way they teachs also above all there exist God's will.
Like i said before i read Bible and Koran and i notice that between these religions there no exist difference.

[Murphy]

All religious books teaches that man has free will but in other way they teachs also above all there exist God's will.

Indeed. And God's Will is superior but man's free will is a part of God's Will. He has Willed that man be given the choice. So a man can disobey God and it is not God's Will. But God in His providence and perfection can bring good out of man's disobedience. The disobedience is not good but God's, for lack of a better word, reaction to it.

Essentially we can speak of two things when discussing God's Will. His providence and his desire.


Like i said before i read Bible and Koran and i notice that between these religions there no exist difference.

They really are quite far a part :P.

[Labeat]

.

Essentially we can speak of two things when discussing God's Will. His providence and his desire.
If you can explain please?

[Murphy]

If you can explain please?

God Will as demonstrated through his providence is that in spite of anything man may do.. God's Will will be accomplished. He cannot be defeated. Even Satan, the greatest of the angels, could not stand up to God. His providence over-rides everything because He is God. But man still has the choice to cooperate with it.

God's Will as demonstrated through his desire is more a nuance of the English language.

[Murphy]

Sorry for my "rudeness" by the way :D.

[Hess]

Sorry for my "rudeness" by the way :D.

Typical Irish behavior :p

[Labeat]

:thumb001:
Sorry for my "rudeness" by the way :D.
No problem

[Odoacer]

Ok lets try it in this way, when i am saying that God not exist automatically i am giving reason some chance , but your concept is irrational because you are saying God exist and that is assumption only based on your conviction, you are not reasonable here you are convinced.

I posit that without God's existence, reason is impossible.


I have a question for all the Christians on here. And keep in mind, this is a yes or no question, there is no need for philosophizing. Can you prove to me that there physically existed a "Jesus Christ" who performed miracles and raised from the dead? Can you show me the credible historical sources (not Josephus) or St. Paul's alleged 500 witnesses?

Note that I am not asking about the good that Christianity has done over the world. I am not asking about the bible's philosophical value.

My question is rather simple, a yes or no question: can you prove that someone named Jesus physically, literally rose from the dead and performed miracles?

What is your standard of proof? You've already rejected some of the most important historical sources. I probably am not able to prove it to your personal satisfaction, but that's a different thing from proving it at all.

[Labeat]

I posit that without God's existence, reason is impossible.

So if without God's existence reason is impossible, why is unreasonable possible with God's existence?

[Odoacer]

So if without God's existence reason is impossible, why is unreasonable possible with God's existence?

"Unreason" is only possible because there is reason. If there were no reason, "unreason" wouldn't be possible, either. It's the same with good & evil, truth & falsehood, or justice & injustice.

But the reason "unreason" does exist is because of original sin. :thumb001: