Lallans

[Winterwolf]

Recently I found out about the Lallans language and I was surprised that I could understand it pretty well as a native German speaker combined with my English skills.

I found it even closer related to the German language than to the modern English one, but this was just a personal impression, because many of the Lallans terms also exist in German, just differently spelt.

How many speakers are there of Lowlands Scots/Lallans and since there isn't much info about in the internet I wonder, if it's a dying language?

[Winterwolf]

Of course Lallans isn’t more related to German than it is to English. That’s just nonsense linguistically, but I found it simply astonishing, that some Lallans terms have more similarity with German terms than English ones.

Examples:

braid = “breit” in German and “broad” in English

Aik = “Eiche” in German and “oak” in English

Auld = “Alt” in German and “old” in English

Bane = “Bein” in antiquated German and “bone” in English

Bide = “bei” in German and “at” in English

Birk = “Birke” in German and “birch” in English

Bluid = “Blut” in German and “blood” in English

Bree = “Brei” in German and “mash/puree/soup” in English

Coo = “Kuh” in German and “cow” in English

Dochter = “Tochter” in German and “daughter” in English

Fecht = “Gefecht” in German and “fight” in English

Finger (=Finger) (soft rather than a hard "g" in Scots as in German)

Fluir = “Flur” also exists in German for “floor” in English (in German the meaning of “Flur” changed and doesn’t mean floor any more, but hallway/corridor)

Ghaist = “Geist” in German and “ghost” in English

Grun(d) = “Grund” in German and “ground” in English

Guid = “gut” in German and “good” in English

Hame = “Heim” in German and “home” in English

Keek, Keik = kijk in Dutch and “look/glimpse/peep” in English

Ken = “kennen” in German and “know” in English

Kirk = “Kirche” in German and “church” in English

Kist = “Kiste” in German and “chest” in English

Lang = “lang” in German and “long” in English

Licht = “Licht” in German and “light” in English

Mair = “mehr” in German and “more” in English

Maist = “meiste” in German and “most” in English

Nicht = “Nacht” in German and “night” in English

Reek, Reik = „Rauch“ in German and „smoke“ in English

Richt = „richtig“ in German and „right“ in English

Unce = „Unze“ in German and „ounce“ in English

[Osweo]

My Grandad was pure English, and used many of those 'Lallans' words. To have the third column labelled merely as 'English' is therefore a grievous error. It should be termed 'Standard English' or the like, for there are many dialects of English (including several spoken north of the present border, of which this Lowlands is an artificial grouping).

[Wyn]

Many of those words, in particular 'kirk,' 'ken,' and 'auld' would be found in traditional Northern English dialects. The apparent Scots-English distinction is more political than historical-linguistic - English does not end and Scots does not begin at the Anglo-Scottish border. The linguistic situation in England and Lowland Scotland is one of dialectal continuum, not distinct languages.

[Albion]

Recently I found out about the Lallans language and I was surprised that I could understand it pretty well as a native German speaker combined with my English skills.

I found it even closer related to the German language than to the modern English one, but this was just a personal impression, because many of the Lallans terms also exist in German, just differently spelt.


Someone told me its got a higher percentage of Germanic words than Standard English itself.
It developed as on offshoot of Northern English dialects and remains the most similar to them. Like the Northern dialects it also contains a lot of Norse influence.
Had English not been standardized based on the Southern dialects of English (with a higher percentage of French and Latin input) but instead on Northern English dialects then Standard English would probably look a lot like Lallans (Scots).

It is mutually intelligable with Modern English, more so with Northern England dialects but someone from say London in the South East would find it quite a lot harder to pickup.


How many speakers are there of Lowlands Scots/Lallans and since there isn't much info about in the internet I wonder, if it's a dying language


There's a few thousand speakers, its hard to tell because the distinction between Lallans and Scottish English is very blurred and they're quite interchangable.
Its not particularly dying but is being dilluted by Standard English but then again it's vocabulary is being reinforced by modern contact between Southern areas of Scotland and the Northern counties of England.

Also a side note: Lallans is very close to dialects spoken in the Northeast, especially Northumberland. English spread to Scotland from those areas and the distinction seems quite political and nationalist to me, how Lallans stops dead at the border with England if you know what I mean... :rolleyes2:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Scotsdialects.png

[Winterwolf]

My Grandad was pure English, and used many of those 'Lallans' words. To have the third column labelled merely as 'English' is therefore a grievous error. It should be termed 'Standard English' or the like, for there are many dialects of English (including several spoken north of the present border, of which this Lowlands is an artificial grouping).


Many of those words, in particular 'kirk,' 'ken,' and 'auld' would be found in traditional Northern English dialects. The apparent Scots-English distinction is more political than historical-linguistic - English does not end and Scots does not begin at the Anglo-Scottish border. The linguistic situation in England and Lowland Scotland is one of dialectal continuum, not distinct languages.


Well, I also used standard German terms only, if I had used colloquial and dialect German terms, I could have expanded that list of examples. Of course this list is highly selective, because I just wanted to show you some similarities. There are much more terms in Lallans, which derived out of English.

Unfortunately my English isn't perfect, I speak it fluently, but I still make mistakes and I witnessed it several times, that native English speakers misunderstood me or my intentions, because I sometimes seem to use rather strong connoted words in English, which also can be understood in a different way, while the same word in German doesn’t have such an underlying strong connotation or political implication.
Therefore I'd be happy for any correction of my English by native English speakers!

Recently I just found out about the "Lallans" dialect and was fascinated about it out of an absolutely apolitical linguistic interest. I didn’t find much sites concerning Lallans and had to rely on some poems in Lallans and wordlists of Lallans published on these websites.
I know nothing about whatever political implications Lallans may have and I simply didn’t know that those terms in my list were also Northumbrian, because the sites usually just showed the Scottish Lowlands as language area. But because of the geographical proximity of Northern England and Southern Scotland this makes sense of course.

Maybe also the English are currently a little bit sensitive, because of the recent Scottish elections and its possible implications, so it was maybe not the best time to create such a topic, but be convinced that I have no ill intentions with this topic. It’s not meant to divide or troll.
I didn’t want to upset or offend English speakers, seriously not!

[Albion]

Maybe also the English are currently a little bit sensitive, because of the recent Scottish elections and its possible implications, so it was maybe not the best time to create such a topic, but be convinced that I have no ill intentions with this topic. It’s not meant to divide or troll.
I didn’t want to upset or offend English speakers, seriously not!

I'm not particularly sensitive about it and I don't think you offended anyone, I actually think its great that dialects such as Lallans are preserved but what I personally was trying to point out is that its simply archaic Northern English. But I do find this topic interesting I must admit.
It is a shame though that the modern Northern English dialects aren't encouraged in such a way as Lallans is, for example in broadcasting, apart from regional news most of the media is in Southern English dialects with a few carefully selected Northern English dialects occasionally represented.

Yeah, I know you're not trolling. You might be interested in these two maps to show you what myself, Osweo and Gospatric have been writing about, they show how Lallans being split away from Northern English dialects is artificial and quite politically and nationalist driven.

Development of English and Lallans:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9598&stc=1&d=1304958981
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9599&stc=1&d=1304958981
Notice on the more recent map that Lallans has basically developed from "Northumbrian dialects" and stops abruptly at the border. In part this distinction is artificial, there's not that much difference between Lallans dialects and the dialects classified as "Northern" on this bottom map.

Also I think it'd be quite easy for people not from Britain to mistake a lot of the dialects around North East England and Cumbria as Scottish, indeed they are very similar in ways but it is in fact the Scottish who picked up their dialect and many features of their accent from these areas of England.

The situation with Wales is entirely different, the people along the English side of the border speak in quite a distinct way that sounds nothing like Welsh English and this continues over into North East Wales and the traditionally English areas of Wales. Actual Welsh English sounds a lot different. What an oxymoron, Welsh English.

Note with maps: They're from a book so I'll take them down after a few days.

[Wulfhere]

Scotch (or whatever you choose to call it) was recently classified as a language for EU subsidy purposes. But the fact is that English speakers can understand it perfectly well, especially, as has been said, people from Northern England (Southerners might have a bit of trouble, just as they do with, say, Geordie). Its classification as a separate language is therefore purely political.

[Osweo]

You might be interested in these two maps to show you what myself, Osweo and Gospatric have been writing about, they show how Lallans being split away from Northern English dialects is artificial and quite politically and nationalist driven.

Development of English and Lallans:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9598&stc=1&d=1304958981
Very pretty. :p Where are they from?

I'd argue about the divide between Midlands and Northern though. The lands between Ribble and Mersey have connections with the former, as well as a little chunk of Blackburn Hundred over the Ribble too. Older authors stress the significance of this river as a dialect border in the Nineteenth and early Twentieth Century. ;)


Notice on the more recent map that Lallans has basically developed from "Northumbrian dialects" and stops abruptly at the border. In part this distinction is artificial, there's not that much difference between Lallans dialects and the dialects classified as "Northern" on this bottom map.
Aye, and I would say that the difference between Glasgow and Melrose is far stronger than that between Melrose and Newcastle Upon Tyne.

We actually have a member here who lives on the border, perhaps he could say more? Eh, Mr. Nglund? :p


Also I think it'd be quite easy for people not from Britain to mistake a lot of the dialects around North East England and Cumbria as Scottish, indeed they are very similar in ways but it is in fact the Scottish who picked up their dialect and many features of their accent from these areas of England.
Well... I would say that the lower Tweed Basin is one of the older areas of English speech in the island.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_PjMVCKQDVg0/Sp4bO1ZNesI/AAAAAAAAJsI/771FpsZAQh4/s320/river+Tweed_catchment.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PjMVCKQDVg0/Sp4bkaMYdEI/AAAAAAAAJsQ/a0fMkOWMqa4/s320/river+Tweed_catchment_Scotland.jpg
Up to the Lammermuirs we have the core area of the old Kingdom of Bernicia - Saint Cuthbeorht was born up there, in the early 600s, indeed, and his is a Germanic name par excellence! :D

[Albion]

Very pretty. :p Where are they from?

The maps are from The Penguin Atlas of British and Irish History (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Penguin-Atlas-British-History-Reference/dp/0140295186/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1304964309&sr=8-1)
It really is a great book, very informative. I got mine for about £3 second hand and in good condition from Amazon.

The Times History of Europe (http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Times-History-of-Europe/dp/000723239X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1304964492&sr=1-1) is another good book too, same format - maps and text. I haven't read it in years and was going to get a copy but they don't have it in stock and I'm not paying full price (something like £30). That book really got me into European history and civilization but only starts at the Greeks and is quite vague on the Barbarians until the great migrations. Great reads though, both of them.


I'd argue about the divide between Midlands and Northern though. The lands between Ribble and Mersey have connections with the former, as well as a little chunk of Blackburn Hundred over the Ribble too. Older authors stress the significance of this river as a dialect border in the Nineteenth and early Twentieth Century. ;)

Well you know more about it than me. I was quite interested in seeing the split in Ireland with Northumbrian dialects in Ulster whilst the rest of the country spoke Midlands dialects. I haven't noticed much difference between Northern and Southern Irish speakers, discounting the Ulster Scots of course.


Aye, and I would say that the difference between Glasgow and Melrose is far stronger than that between Melrose and Newcastle Upon Tyne.

We actually have a member here who lives on the border, perhaps he could say more? Eh, Mr. Nglund? :p

I'll ask him.


Well... I would say that the lower Tweed Basin is one of the older areas of English speech in the island.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_PjMVCKQDVg0/Sp4bO1ZNesI/AAAAAAAAJsI/771FpsZAQh4/s320/river+Tweed_catchment.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PjMVCKQDVg0/Sp4bkaMYdEI/AAAAAAAAJsQ/a0fMkOWMqa4/s320/river+Tweed_catchment_Scotland.jpg
Up to the Lammermuirs we have the core area of the old Kingdom of Bernicia - Saint Cuthbeorht was born up there, in the early 600s, indeed, and his is a Germanic name par excellence! :D

I get the impression that Bernicia and Northumbria are downplayed and little mentioned in romanticised Scottish history sometimes. :rolleyes2:

[Nglund]

Aye, and I would say that the difference between Glasgow and Melrose is far stronger than that between Melrose and Newcastle Upon Tyne.

We actually have a member here who lives on the border, perhaps he could say more? Eh, Mr. Nglund? :p

I'll ask him.


MWAHAHA! :D
I have a 90 year old aunt who speaks Scots daily, can't understand a 'wuid' of it :D.
It depends where you are really, I would say they sound more or less like some kind of Northern English accent near Newcastle...
North East dialects usually sound more and more like Southern Scots as you go up the Border. Obviously :D.
But I'm no linguist though, unfortunately ;).

[Peasant]

The Panjabi, Gujarati and Bengali languages being marked on the map are disturbing.

Also maybe it's just me, but in the map with the North East marked with the orange line doesn't seem right to me. Darlington seems cut out, and I reckon I'm more likely to confuse their accent as a Middlesbrough one than a Geordies any day.

[Albion]

The Panjabi, Gujarati and Bengali languages being marked on the map are disturbing.

Also maybe it's just me, but in the map with the North East marked with the orange line doesn't seem right to me. Darlington seems cut out, and I reckon I'm more likely to confuse their accent as a Middlesbrough one than a Geordies any day.

Indeed, the publisher had to get the required quota of multiculturalist Bull s**t in lest the book be deemed racist. :(

[Osweo]

Indeed, the publisher had to get the required quota of multiculturalist Bull s**t in lest the book be deemed racist. :(

Had you lived in the Soviet Union or read many book written then, this would be QUITE familiar.

Every author made sure to put Lenin, Marx or Engels somewhere in their bibliography, and to have some quotes from them in their introduction. As in our time, it wasn´t compulsory as such - just something that is done as a matter of course.

It´s like a genuflection to the presiding God of our age. :coffee: